Guest guest Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " asilial " <asilial@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > GuruRatings , " asilial " <asilial@> wrote: > > > > > > GuruRatings , " anabebe57 " <kailashana@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anna dear, what do you MEAN when you say, " forgiveness is > > > entirely > > > > > another thing in the experience of Oneness? " > > > > > > > > How does one learn forgiveness? Teach it? By example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're becoming foggy again in your attempt to communicate > with > > > some > > > > > of us more literal minded GRaters. > > > > > > > > The above shouldn't have been too foggy. > > > > > > > > > > Asilia: > > > > > > " You can't reason someone out of something they weren't > > > reasoned into " > > > Jonathan Swift. > > > > > > Did I miss something...has the fogged clear? > > > > > > Did she answer the question: > > > > > > " Anna dear, what do you MEAN when you say, " forgiveness > > > is entirely another thing in the experience of Oneness? " > > > > > > > > > WOW...if Anna thinks the above is clear AND succinct and > > > addresses the question asked, well I think the fog is > > > more dense than we realized. > > > > > Namaste, > > > > As karma is a memory, one forgives so as not to leave residual > > memories to be paid off in the future.........that's illusion for > > you...> > > > Asilia: > > What if one does not believe in karma and reincarnation, > how would you explain forgiveness with those parameters? Namaste, No matter whether one believes it or not it still exists within the mind of illusion. One has subconscious belief systems operating as samskaras or impressions anyway. Karma is memory is mind is memory, and even if one only believes in the heavens one can receive fruits of one's karmic memory there..........Tony. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Susan " <skylarkwalk@> wrote: > > > > Asilia: > > > > Gravitational force & magnetic force is something that > > is experienced daily. One may not know the " word " > > gravity, but one is very much aware that they can't > > " walk on water, jump off a cliff or fly " without > > immediate consequences. There is no " belief " implied > > or needed. > > > > Karma may be a suble force operating everywhere, but > > how does one experience karma on a day to day basis? > > Karma is based on " belief " , not experience. > > > > My question was if one does NOT believe/accept karma, > > then why does the " non-believer " forgive. > > insinuated that forgiveness was given BECAUSE of the > > fear of karma and retribution in the next > > reincarnation. Tony's statements suggests, then, that > > non-believers of karma have no reason to " forgive " . > > > > Have I made myself clear, or have I muddled it up > > for you? > > > > I don't see any connection between karma and forgiveness. > At least no more connection than there is between karma > and any moral/ethical value. > > Do you think that if one does not believe in karma there > is no point in having personal integrity? Do you think > if one does not believe in karma they have no conscience, > or are not burdened by harboring resentments against > others, or regrets about their own behavior? > > If a belief in karma, and fear of retribution to themselves > because of their own actions, is the only thing that keeps some > people from becoming unkind immoral monsters, than I suppose > it is a good thing for society that they do believe in > karma. In that case it seems it's a good thing as that many > Christian fundamentalists worry about God's punishments > and so comport themselves kindly. It's insincere on all > parts, but it is a positive force for society in > general. > > > > people living Namaste, Illusion is about finding balance, karma is a balancing memory function. As I said in my answer to asilia there are samskaras at the subconscious level that guide and control our tendencies and attributes, then there are the heavens at different levels........ --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Susan " <skylarkwalk@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > Illusion is about finding balance, karma is a balancing memory > > function. As I said in my answer to asilia there are samskaras at the > > subconscious level that guide and control our tendencies and > > attributes, then there are the heavens at different levels........> > > > Concern about personal karma is simply > another way of perpetuating ego. > > Just as Christians need to believe the soul will > have another life after the life within a body on > Earth, so those who believe in karma need to believe > they are a distinct and separate entity and will > retain that separateness over the course > of countless lifetimes before eventually merging > with the All. > > We are one now. It isn't something that will be > achieved. It is now. Namaste, This seems to be side stepping the issue and taking refuge in non- duality. As you can see I used the word 'illusion' to try and avoid this manoevre in responses. And yes it is all Now and even Now didn't happen, for by definition Now is a description of a mode of time. The point however is that if you are not a 'realised' being in total union then for you duality is a reality, and one has to deal with it. That is the nature of duality go out and punch the wall and see who gets hurt. So we are left with our subconscious attributes and tendencies guiding our conscious lives. This includes karmic memory balancing the ledger in favour of these subconscious samskaras or tendencies. Again karma is a memory linked to moving belief systems, it can be balanced but not overcome, or perhaps the balancing is overcoming... --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: GuruRatings , " Susan " <skylarkwalk@> wrote: > > GuruRatings , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> wrote: > > > > GuruRatings , " Susan " <skylarkwalk@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > Illusion is about finding balance, karma is a balancing memory > > > > function. As I said in my answer to asilia there are samskaras > at > > the > > > > subconscious level that guide and control our tendencies and > > > > attributes, then there are the heavens at different > > levels........> > > > > > > > > > Concern about personal karma is simply > > > another way of perpetuating ego. > > > > > > Just as Christians need to believe the soul will > > > have another life after the life within a body on > > > Earth, so those who believe in karma need to believe > > > they are a distinct and separate entity and will > > > retain that separateness over the course > > > of countless lifetimes before eventually merging > > > with the All. > > > > > > We are one now. It isn't something that will be > > > achieved. It is now. > > > > Namaste, > > > > This seems to be side stepping the issue and taking refuge in non- > > duality. As you can see I used the word 'illusion' to try and avoid > > this manoevre in responses. > > I live in the now. Perhaps you choose to live in > illusion? Nor do I sidestep any issue: it is simply > that many use the idea of karma to feed their egos and > their desire to remain separate, and I do not. > > > > > And yes it is all Now and even Now didn't happen, > > Now is happening to me right now. Now is fleeting. > Aren't you ever in the now, or do you live in hope > of some reincarnated future? > > for by definition > > Now is a description of a mode of time. The point however is that > if > > you are not a 'realised' being in total union then for you duality > is > > a reality, and one has to deal with it. That is the nature of > duality > > The cell is part of the body and dependent on > they body. It has its own jobs to do and is interdependent > with other cells, that is the extent of its duality. > > > go out and punch the wall and see who gets hurt. > > Go and stub your toe. Does the wave of pain cause a > reaction in your entire body, or do you only feel it > in your toe? When the toe is harmed the body reacts. > > > > > So we are left with our subconscious attributes and tendencies > > guiding our conscious lives. > > I agree that we have subconscious attributes and tendencies. > > Worry about your karma if that brings you happiness, Tony. > I wish you well. **smiling** > ~~ Susan Namaste, Now only describes time that cannot be termed future or past, but yet is is describing time.--nowtime as opposed the Present. One can only live in the total present if one is in union and illusion has vanished otherwise it is just semantics. You talk in dualities when you talk of cells in the body and their reactions. I doubt living in the now is anymore present than Tolle's. One cannot worry about one's karma only about balance, the subconscious samskaras are beyond conscious worrying. This will give an impulse to perform the right karma, so to speak. Like spiritual teachers/Gurus, unless one is a jivanmukta one doesn't really qualify........... --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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