Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Namaste, The concept of Ajativasa is very simple. Ramana said that creation never happened. I believe that includes the appearance as that can only be a projection of mind. If there is appearance or mind then that is SaGuna, or an attribute. Therefore NirGuna Brahman can only be non-dual...no mind,no appearance, no being no Gunas....... advaitajnana , " Tony OClery " <aoclery wrote: > > , " Tony OClery " <aoclery@> > wrote: > > > Peter, > > You are basing your whole argument on a redundancy, and or a false > premise. > > Even Ramana says that Ajativada is the whole truth........That > creation never happened. Saguna concept can only be entertained with > creation or projection, even in pralaya potentiality is still > apprehended creation. Even the appearance never happened as mind > didn't happen. > > Thus: Only NirGuna is the Truth and the Self that Sankara and Ramana > talk of is Big Siva or Saguna concept. How can you name Nir Guna > because by naming it you limit and attribute to it description. > > Very simply Siva/Self is Saguna Brahman, and when one realises Saguna > one simultaneously realises NirGuna and that nothing ever happened. > > Ramana and Sankara knew that the realisation was simultaneous so > didn't feel it necessary to try and explain this to the minds > present, I presume. They knew that realisation was only ONE. > > If one follows Bhakti one can become Sakti but if one keeps a feeling > of lover and loved it will prevent realisation, until the pralaya at > best and at worst one would be a dweller in the Brahmaloka > consciousness...........for some time..pralaya or mahapralay it > doesn't matter...........Cheers Tony. > > > , " Peter " <not_2@> wrote: > > > > Dear Tony, > > > > Here are some responses to your earlier claims based on my > understanding of > > Ramana's teaching and advaita.. Given your most recent comments I > suspect > > you have no real interest in this. However, other members may wish > to read > > and offer corrections or comments. > > > > You appear to be saying that the Self is not the Absolute Brahman > (nirguna) > > but only refers to Isvara (saguna, the manifested brahman) > which " never > > happened " . If we accept your statement we must assume the Self > (Atman) also > > never happened. According to you this is Ramana's teaching. > Please share > > with us where Ramana makes such statements about the Self or > indicates this > > to be the case - please provide references. > > > > You also wrote we need your version of Para Advaita because Sankara > only > > went as far as " the Self " . The implication here is that there is > somewhere > > further to go beyond the Self and this is something you have some > inkling > > of. > > > > This is not supported by Sankara himself who affirms the teaching > of the > > Vedas, namely that there is nothing higher than the Self, for if > there were > > then the self would be an merely an effect of something else rather > than > > being the true nature (the Self) of All. He writes: > > > > " ..if the Self were a modification (and so an effect) of something > else, > > then, because the Veda mentions no other being higher than it, all > effects, > > beginning with ether, would be without a Self, as the Self would > itself be > > an effect. And this would amount to the doctrine of the Void. But > denial of > > the Self is impossible, from the very fact its being one's > > Self. " (Sankaracharya --Brahma Sutra Bhasya:II.iii.7) > > > > This is in line with Ramana's teaching that the Self is " One > without a > > second " - " The Self, (here) declared to be Consciousness, is alone > real, > > without a second. " (see Forty Verses on Reality v:12 and 13) > > > > There cannot be two Ones without a second, or two things which > are " alone > > real without a second " . In other words as the One Reality there > is nothing > > other than the Self, Atman. As Ramana states: > > > > " Atman alone exists and is real. The threefold reality of world, > individual > > soul, and God is, like the illusory appearance of silver in the > mother of > > pearl, an imaginary creation in the Atman. They appear and disappear > > simultaneously. The Self alone is the world, the 'I' and God. All > that > > exists is but the manifestation of the Supreme. " From " Who Am I? " > (essay > > version in " Words of Grace " page 7) > > > > Please note, saguna brahman - referred to as " God " in the above > passage - > > appears and disappears within the Atman (the Self) not the other > way around. > > This is because the Self and the unborn Brahman (nirguna) are not > two. > > > > What might another great and realised soul such as Kanchi Maha- > Swamigal, > > (1884 - 1994), the head of the Kunchi Matt, have to say on this > matter? His > > Holiness writes: > > > > " There is no such thing as the union of JIvatma [individual self] > and > > Paramatma [supreme Self]. A union occurs only when there is more > than one. > > Only when there are two any question of relationship between the > two arises. > > In truth the JIvatma and Paramatma are not two distinct entities. > Atma is > > one and one only. It is itself by itself; other than itself there is > > nothing. The Self being the Self as such is what it is. That is > called by > > the name 'nirguna-brahman'. " (from ADVAITA-SADHANA - Kanchi Maha- > Swamigal's > > Discourses. my brackets inserted.) > > > > Please note HH's last sentence above. Kanchi Maha-Swamigal, Sankara > and > > Ramana all state the same truth about the Self. It is the only > reality and > > it is the formless, attributeless Brahman. This is the central > teaching of > > Advaita. > > > > " That one Shining One is hidden in all beings, is all pervasive and > the > > innermost Atman of all. It is the overseer of all actions, the > indweller in > > all beings, the Witness, Pure Consciousness, that which is all that > is left > > (when avidyA is removed), and is beyond all qualities. " > (Svetasvatara > > Upanishad - 1:6) > > > > Sankara like Ramana maintains that Brahman is first cognised as God > (Iswara, > > the manifested one, saguna brahman). Later it is realised as > nirguna > > brahman, devoid of external upadhis/adjuncts (qualities). For > example, > > Ramana states: > > > > " The Saguna merges into the nirguna in the long run. The saguna > purifies the > > mind and takes one to the final goal. " (Talks: 621) This is the > real value > > of devotion to God or devotion to the Guru. > > > > Sankara similarly states in his commentary on the Kathopanishad: > > > > " The Absolute is first known as Being when apprehended through the > > (provisional) notion of Being set up by it's external adjuncts, and > is > > afterwards known as (pure) Being in its capacity as the Self, void > of > > external adjuncts. " (Kathopanishad Bhasya, II.iii. 12-13) > > > > Once again we see Sankara referring to the Self as nirguna (void of > external > > adjuncts). Sri Muruganar shows this is also the teaching of Ramana: > > > > " Consciousness is not a quality [guna] of the Self because the Self > is free > > from qualities [nirguna]. " (Guru Vachaka Govai, v1038 Sri > Muruganar. my > > brackets.) > > > > Here are some further passages from Sankara and Sri Muruganar's > Guru Vachaka > > Govai. > > > > " ...the existence of the Absolute is evident because it is the Self > of all. > > Everyone is aware of the existence of his own Self. No one > thinks 'I am > > not'. If experience of one's own Self were not evident, everyone > would have > > the feeling 'I do not exist' And the Self (atman) is the Absolute > > (brahman). " (Sankaracharya --Brahma Sutra Bhasya:I.i.1) > > > > " The Self abides motionless because of its all pervasive > fullness. " (Guru > > Vachaka Govai, v94 Sri Muruganar.) > > > > " The real Brahman is nirguna and without motion. " (GVG v151) > > > > Regards, > > > > Peter > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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