Talk 487. #1

[Guest guest]

Talk 487.

An English lady, a young woman, came here dressed in a Muslim sari.

She had evidently been in North India and met Dr. G. H. Mees.

Sri Bhagavan read out a stanza “The Black Sun” from the anniversary

number of The Vision, written by Swami Bharatananda.

After a few minutes, Miss J. asked: One gathers from the stanza that

one should keep on meditating until one gets merged in the state of

consciousness. Do you think it right?

M.: Yes.

D.: I go further and ask: Is it right that one should, by conscious will,

go into that state from which there is no return?

(No answer) - Dinner bell.

Afternoon

D.: What is the object of Self-Realisation?

M.: Self-Realisation is the final goal and it is the end in itself.

D.: l mean, what is the use of Self-Realisation?

M.: Why should you seek Self-Realisation? Why do you not rest content

with your present state? It is evident that you are discontented with

the present state. The discontent is at an end if you realise the Self.

D.: What is that Self-Realisation which removes the discontent? I am in the

world and there are wars in it. Can Self-Realisation put an end to it?

M.: Are you in the world? Or is the world in you?

D.: I do not understand. The world is certainly around me.

M.: You speak of the world and happenings in it. They are mere ideas

in you. The ideas are in the mind. The mind is within you. And so

the world is within you.

D.: I do not follow you. Even if I do not think of the world, the world

is still there.

M.: Do you mean to say that the world is apart from the mind and it

can exist in the absence of the mind?

D.: Yes.

M.: Does the world exist in your deep sleep?

D.: It does.

M.: Do you see it in your sleep?

D.: No, I don’t. But others, who are awake, see it.

M.: Are you so aware in your sleep? Or do you become aware of the

other’s knowledge now?

D.: In my waking state.

M.: So you speak of waking knowledge and not of sleep-experience. The

existence of the world in your waking and dream states is admitted

because they are the products of the mind. The mind is withdrawn in

sleep and the world is in the condition of a seed. It becomes manifest

over again when you wake up. The ego springs forth, identifies itself

with the body and sees the world. So the world is a mental creation.

D.: How can it be?

M.: Do you not create a world in your dream? The waking state also

is a long drawn out dream. There must be a seer behind the waking

and dream experiences. Who is that seer? Is it the body?

D.: It cannot be.

M.: Is it the mind?

D.: It must be so.

M.: But you remain in the absence of the mind.

D.: How?

M.: In deep sleep.

D.: l do not know if I am then.

M.: If you were not how do you recollect yesterday’s experiences? Is it

possible that there was a break in the continuity of the ‘I’ during sleep?

D.: It may be.

M.: If so, a Johnson may wake up as a Benson. How will the identity

of the individual be established?

D.: I don’t know.

M.: If this argument is not clear, follow a different line. You admit

“I slept well”, “I feel refreshed after a sound sleep”. So sleep was

your experience. The experiencer now identifies himself with the

‘I’ in the speaker. So this ‘I’ must have been in sleep also.

D.: Yes.

M.: So ‘I’ was in sleep, if the world was then there, did it say that it

existed?

D.: No. But the world tells me its existence now. Even if I deny its

existence, I may knock myself against a stone and hurt my foot.

The injury proves the existence of the stone and so of the world.

M.: Quite so. The stone hurts the foot. Does the foot say that there

is the stone?

D.: No. - ‘I’.

M.: Who is this ‘I’? It cannot be the body nor the mind as we have

seen before. This ‘I’ is the one who experiences the waking, dream

and sleep states. The three states are changes which do not affect

the individual. The experiences are like pictures passing on a screen

in the cinema. The appearance and disappearance of the pictures

do not affect the screen. So also, the three states alternate with one

another leaving the Self unaffected. The waking and the dream

states are creations of the mind. So the Self covers all. To know

that the Self remains happy in its perfection is Self-Realisation. Its

use lies in the realisation of Perfection and thus of Happiness.

D.: Can it be complete happiness to remain Self-realised if one does

not contribute to the happiness of the world? How can one be

so happy when there is a war in Spain, a war in China? Is it not

selfishness to remain Self-realised without helping the world?

M.: The Self was pointed out to you to cover the universe and also

transcend it. The world cannot remain apart from the Self. If the

realisation of such Self be called selfishness that selfishness must

cover the world also. It is nothing contemptible.

D.: Does not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised

being?

M.: Yes, with this difference that the realised being does not see the

world as being apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and

the internal happiness of being perfect, whereas the other person

sees the world apart, feels imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise

their physical actions are similar.

D.: The realised being also knows that there are wars being waged

in the world, just like the other man.

M.: Yes.

D.: How then can he be happy?

M.: Is the cinema screen affected by a scene of fire burning or sea

rising? So it is with the Self.

The idea that I am the body or the mind is so deep that one cannot get

over it even if convinced otherwise. One experiences a dream and knows

it to be unreal on waking. Waking experience is unreal in other states.

So each state contradicts the others. They are therefore mere changes

taking place in the seer, or phenomena appearing in the Self, which is

unbroken and remains unaffected by them. Just as the waking, dream

and sleep states are phenomena, so also birth, growth and death are

phenomena in the Self. which continues to be unbroken and unaffected.

Birth and death are only ideas. They pertain to the body or the mind. The

Self exists before the birth of this body and will remain after the death of

this body. So it is with the series of bodies taken up in succession. The

Self is immortal. The phenomena are changeful and appear mortal. The

fear of death is of the body. It is not true of the Self. Such fear is due to

ignorance. Realisation means True Knowledge of the Perfection and

Immortality of the Self. Mortality is only an idea and cause of misery.

You get rid of it by realising the Immortal nature of the Self.