Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Dear RRji well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is in store for their personal lives but do they really practice in changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate qurrents i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to here B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on line of succession raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED justice G S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S-I-Law die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but could not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked Gayithri devi to take over SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason for it and so did not want to do anything against it ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing out gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and NO EDITORIAL on astrology he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too it did not work this way so the magazine died WHY is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a example who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. my guru too was asked similar questions did u know before when his daughter died at 40 his wife died 2 yrs later I was around before and after their death and he had told a few people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them before had for all to see in their homes my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like this I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and be with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later she did not do so but went to her brothers place as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the accounts, writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members he managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him THAT IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is stable by another prop than allow it to fall down [he meant the family after he was gone] and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the fan as he was sweating but she never knew he has write down his end so well that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who helped his end be smooth all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it big did suffer i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short quick techniques to cast, read horoscopes HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in his fate THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD LESS INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS [may be this was indicated as well] I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich experience in itself regards Prashant Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about this? Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their knowledge of Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual fates and bounties? Have YOU as an astrologer done that? We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV Raman or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari or Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other beacons in the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern jyotish ever used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and Mukunda Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and imagine? Enquiring minds want to know! Rohiniranjan Never miss a thing. Make your homepage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Dear RRji well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is in store for their personal lives but do they really practice in changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate qurrents i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to here B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on line of succession raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED justice G S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S-I-Law die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but could not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked Gayithri devi to take over SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason for it and so did not want to do anything against it ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing out gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and NO EDITORIAL on astrology he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too it did not work this way so the magazine died WHY is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a example who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. my guru too was asked similar questions did u know before when his daughter died at 40 his wife died 2 yrs later I was around before and after their death and he had told a few people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them before had for all to see in their homes my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like this I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and be with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later she did not do so but went to her brothers place as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the accounts, writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members he managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him THAT IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is stable by another prop than allow it to fall down [he meant the family after he was gone] and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the fan as he was sweating but she never knew he has write down his end so well that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who helped his end be smooth all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it big did suffer i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short quick techniques to cast, read horoscopes HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in his fate THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD LESS INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS [may be this was indicated as well] I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich experience in itself regards Prashant Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about this? Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their knowledge of Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual fates and bounties? Have YOU as an astrologer done that? We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV Raman or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari or Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other beacons in the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern jyotish ever used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and Mukunda Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and imagine? Enquiring minds want to know! Rohiniranjan Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Thanks Kumar ji. Much appreciated! RR , Prashant Kumar G B <gbp_kumar wrote: > > Dear RRji > > well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is in store for their personal lives but do they really practice in changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate qurrents > > i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to here > > B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back > > on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on line of succession > > raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED justice G S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died > > 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S-I-Law die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but could not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked Gayithri devi to take over > > SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason for it and so did not want to do anything against it > > ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing out gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and NO EDITORIAL on astrology > > he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president > and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too > it did not work this way so the magazine died > > WHY > > is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a example who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. > > my guru too was asked similar questions > > did u know before > when his daughter died at 40 > his wife died 2 yrs later > > I was around before and after their death and he had told a few people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them before had for all to see in their homes > > my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like this > I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING > he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and be with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later > she did not do so but went to her brothers place > > as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the accounts, writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members he managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters > and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 > > the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him THAT IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is stable by another prop than allow it to fall down > > [he meant the family after he was gone] > > and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the fan as he was sweating > > but she never knew he has write down his end so well > > that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who helped his end be smooth > > all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course > > we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it big did suffer > > i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY > > who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short quick techniques to cast, read horoscopes > > HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in his fate > > THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA > but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD LESS INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS > [may be this was indicated as well] > > I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich experience in itself > > regards > > Prashant > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about this? > > Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their knowledge of > Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual fates > and bounties? > > Have YOU as an astrologer done that? > > We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! > > I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV Raman > or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari or > Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other beacons in > the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern jyotish ever > used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? > > What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and Mukunda > Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? > > What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and imagine? > > Enquiring minds want to know! > > Rohiniranjan > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 dear friends astrologers are torchbearers who give light to others and let others shine in that light and hardly do they use the light for their own use. all those astrologers who decided to burn their karmic kalories are at peace albeit not successful in material terms. as regards lion, doctor, professor k parthasarathy who was one of the most high flying astrologers from chennai, it is unfortunate that he predicted his own death on a particular day and two days before that Dday he could not bear that he would die in few days and committed suicide by hanging. hence as per astrology dictums, we shall not predict death especially dates of death as the native fearing the arrival of death may commit suicide before that date and the astrologer becomes an abettor in that suicidal crime. with best wishes and blessings pandit arjun www.rudraksharemedy.com , Prashant Kumar G B <gbp_kumar wrote: > > Dear RRji > > well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is in store for their personal lives but do they really practice in changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate qurrents > > i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to here > > B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back > > on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on line of succession > > raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED justice G S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died > > 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S-I-Law die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but could not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked Gayithri devi to take over > > SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason for it and so did not want to do anything against it > > ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing out gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and NO EDITORIAL on astrology > > he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president > and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too > it did not work this way so the magazine died > > WHY > > is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a example who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. > > my guru too was asked similar questions > > did u know before > when his daughter died at 40 > his wife died 2 yrs later > > I was around before and after their death and he had told a few people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them before had for all to see in their homes > > my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like this > I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING > he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and be with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later > she did not do so but went to her brothers place > > as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the accounts, writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members he managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters > and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 > > the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him THAT IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is stable by another prop than allow it to fall down > > [he meant the family after he was gone] > > and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the fan as he was sweating > > but she never knew he has write down his end so well > > that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who helped his end be smooth > > all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course > > we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it big did suffer > > i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY > > who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short quick techniques to cast, read horoscopes > > HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in his fate > > THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA > but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD LESS INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS > [may be this was indicated as well] > > I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich experience in itself > > regards > > Prashant > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about this? > > Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their knowledge of > Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual fates > and bounties? > > Have YOU as an astrologer done that? > > We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! > > I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV Raman > or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari or > Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other beacons in > the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern jyotish ever > used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? > > What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and Mukunda > Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? > > What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and imagine? > > Enquiring minds want to know! > > Rohiniranjan > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Dear Arjun bhai, Given that all of us mortals are assured that we will have many many many lifetimes and cycles of births and deaths before we figure out or get 'told' what this circus of creation and rebirths was all about, should 'one' instance of death among many hundreds of thousands that are 'promised' should assume such a make or break significance? I sometimes wonder how focused many of us seem to get on our most recent birth epoch and the very next death epoch and forget that we are a goldfish trapped in an aquarium which we presume is our boundary of experience and reality and fail to realize that that aquarium, our immediate home is sitting right in the midst of the ocean of creation! What if the jar breaks, even by our own mistaken doing, we shall still find ourselves in the Ocean of Grace that surrounds our little fish-jar that we thought was our entire life, total reality! Rohiniranjan P.S. Pardon for the run-on sentence but somethings thoughts must not be limited and stiffled by traditional punctuation! , " panditarjun2004 " <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear friends > > astrologers are torchbearers who give light to others and let others > shine in that light and hardly do they use the light for their own > use. > > all those astrologers who decided to burn their karmic kalories are > at peace albeit not successful in material terms. > > as regards lion, doctor, professor k parthasarathy who was one of the > most high flying astrologers from chennai, it is unfortunate that he > predicted his own death on a particular day and two days before that > Dday he could not bear that he would die in few days and committed > suicide by hanging. > > hence as per astrology dictums, we shall not predict death especially > dates of death as the native fearing the arrival of death may commit > suicide before that date and the astrologer becomes an abettor in > that suicidal crime. > > with best wishes and blessings > pandit arjun > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > , Prashant Kumar G B > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > Dear RRji > > > > well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is in > store for their personal lives but do they really practice in > changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate > qurrents > > > > i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to here > > > > B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back > > > > on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on line > of succession > > > > raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED justice G > S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died > > > > 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S-I- Law > die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but could > not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked Gayithri > devi to take over > > > > SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason for > it and so did not want to do anything against it > > > > ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing out > gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and NO > EDITORIAL on astrology > > > > he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president > > and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too > > it did not work this way so the magazine died > > > > WHY > > > > is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to > finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL > bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a example > who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. > > > > my guru too was asked similar questions > > > > did u know before > > when his daughter died at 40 > > his wife died 2 yrs later > > > > I was around before and after their death and he had told a few > people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come > earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them before > had for all to see in their homes > > > > my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like this > > I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING > > he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and be > with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later > > she did not do so but went to her brothers place > > > > as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the accounts, > writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members he > managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters > > and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 > > > > the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him THAT > IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is stable by > another prop than allow it to fall down > > > > [he meant the family after he was gone] > > > > and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the fan as > he was sweating > > > > but she never knew he has write down his end so well > > > > that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who > helped his end be smooth > > > > all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course > > > > we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from > wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it big > did suffer > > > > i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY > > > > who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short quick > techniques to cast, read horoscopes > > > > HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in his > fate > > > > THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA > > but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD LESS > INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS > > [may be this was indicated as well] > > > > I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich > experience in itself > > > > regards > > > > Prashant > > > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@> > wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about this? > > > > Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their knowledge > of > > Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual fates > > and bounties? > > > > Have YOU as an astrologer done that? > > > > We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! > > > > I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV > Raman > > or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari or > > Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other beacons > in > > the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern jyotish > ever > > used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? > > > > What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and Mukunda > > Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? > > > > What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and imagine? > > > > Enquiring minds want to know! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > Search. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 dear RRji since you elicited views of jyotishis, let me put mine as follows: firstly i dont believe that everything is 100% preordained or predestined. secondly astrology is only an indicator of what we accrued from previous birth and to know our karmic statement of account as on the date of birth. thirdly freewill is superior in making a selfmade person with sheer efforts and determination. fourthly, any person can become fortunate or unfortunate in receiving blessings and boons or curses and wraths. fifthly and lastly the evil eye which comes only when all the above fails and has few takers. a jyotishi or astrologer has chosen a profession where his duty is to help, assist or serve others. hence he shall not be thinking too much on himself or how his life is. to draw a parallel you may find crowds standing in line for several hours to have a one minute glimpse of a diety in a temple and feel elated for seeing the god. the poojari who remains in the sanctum sanctorum of the same temple more than half day daily all through his life is not at all good in any material parameter. most of these poojaris live below average life in modern standards. here natives dont feel jealous of the poojari thinking that he is more fortunate than the pilgrims or visitors just because of being so close to the god for longer durations. hence whether to become a servant and serve others or become a master and receive services is an individual choice and the astrologer or poojari is meant only for serving others. here too natives dont feel that astrologer is so lucky to know his own fate as he is great in looking all others fates. with best wishes and blessings pandit arjun www.rudraksharemedy.com , " Rohiniranjan " <rohini_ranjan wrote: > > Dear Arjun bhai, > > Given that all of us mortals are assured that we will have many many > many lifetimes and cycles of births and deaths before we figure out > or get 'told' what this circus of creation and rebirths was all > about, should 'one' instance of death among many hundreds of > thousands that are 'promised' should assume such a make or break > significance? > > I sometimes wonder how focused many of us seem to get on our most > recent birth epoch and the very next death epoch and forget that we > are a goldfish trapped in an aquarium which we presume is our > boundary of experience and reality and fail to realize that that > aquarium, our immediate home is sitting right in the midst of the > ocean of creation! What if the jar breaks, even by our own mistaken > doing, we shall still find ourselves in the Ocean of Grace that > surrounds our little fish-jar that we thought was our entire life, > total reality! > > Rohiniranjan > > P.S. Pardon for the run-on sentence but somethings thoughts must not > be limited and stiffled by traditional punctuation! > > > , " panditarjun2004 " > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > dear friends > > > > astrologers are torchbearers who give light to others and let > others > > shine in that light and hardly do they use the light for their own > > use. > > > > all those astrologers who decided to burn their karmic kalories are > > at peace albeit not successful in material terms. > > > > as regards lion, doctor, professor k parthasarathy who was one of > the > > most high flying astrologers from chennai, it is unfortunate that > he > > predicted his own death on a particular day and two days before > that > > Dday he could not bear that he would die in few days and committed > > suicide by hanging. > > > > hence as per astrology dictums, we shall not predict death > especially > > dates of death as the native fearing the arrival of death may > commit > > suicide before that date and the astrologer becomes an abettor in > > that suicidal crime. > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > pandit arjun > > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > > > > , Prashant Kumar G B > > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear RRji > > > > > > well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is in > > store for their personal lives but do they really practice in > > changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate > > qurrents > > > > > > i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to > here > > > > > > B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back > > > > > > on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on line > > of succession > > > > > > raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED justice > G > > S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died > > > > > > 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S-I- > Law > > die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but could > > not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked > Gayithri > > devi to take over > > > > > > SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason > for > > it and so did not want to do anything against it > > > > > > ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing out > > gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and > NO > > EDITORIAL on astrology > > > > > > he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president > > > and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too > > > it did not work this way so the magazine died > > > > > > WHY > > > > > > is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to > > finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL > > bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a example > > who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. > > > > > > my guru too was asked similar questions > > > > > > did u know before > > > when his daughter died at 40 > > > his wife died 2 yrs later > > > > > > I was around before and after their death and he had told a few > > people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come > > earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them before > > had for all to see in their homes > > > > > > my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like > this > > > I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING > > > he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and be > > with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later > > > she did not do so but went to her brothers place > > > > > > as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the > accounts, > > writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members > he > > managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters > > > and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 > > > > > > the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him > THAT > > IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is stable > by > > another prop than allow it to fall down > > > > > > [he meant the family after he was gone] > > > > > > and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the fan > as > > he was sweating > > > > > > but she never knew he has write down his end so well > > > > > > that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who > > helped his end be smooth > > > > > > all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course > > > > > > we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from > > wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it > big > > did suffer > > > > > > i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY > > > > > > who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short > quick > > techniques to cast, read horoscopes > > > > > > HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in his > > fate > > > > > > THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA > > > but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD LESS > > INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS > > > [may be this was indicated as well] > > > > > > I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich > > experience in itself > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@> > > wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about > this? > > > > > > Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their > knowledge > > of > > > Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual > fates > > > and bounties? > > > > > > Have YOU as an astrologer done that? > > > > > > We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! > > > > > > I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV > > Raman > > > or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari or > > > Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other beacons > > in > > > the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern jyotish > > ever > > > used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? > > > > > > What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and > Mukunda > > > Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? > > > > > > What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and > imagine? > > > > > > Enquiring minds want to know! > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > > Search. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Dear Arjun bhai, My clarifications/elaborations appear below prefaced by 'RR:' below, just ot avoid confusion on this forum where confusion seems to proliferate faster than the birthrate in this world of ours! .... , " panditarjun2004 " <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear RRji > > since you elicited views of jyotishis, let me put mine as follows: > RR: Just my views Arjunji, not of jyotishis as in a cohort or group! > firstly i dont believe that everything is 100% preordained or > predestined. > > secondly astrology is only an indicator of what we accrued from > previous birth and to know our karmic statement of account as on the > date of birth. > > thirdly freewill is superior in making a selfmade person with sheer > efforts and determination. > > fourthly, any person can become fortunate or unfortunate in receiving > blessings and boons or curses and wraths. > > fifthly and lastly the evil eye which comes only when all the above > fails and has few takers. > > a jyotishi or astrologer has chosen a profession where his duty is to > help, assist or serve others. hence he shall not be thinking too > much on himself or how his life is. > RR: Fully in agreement so far, to all above (except the statement about me presenting the viewpoint of jyotishis! ;-)) > to draw a parallel you may find crowds standing in line for several > hours to have a one minute glimpse of a diety in a temple and feel > elated for seeing the god. the poojari who remains in the sanctum > sanctorum of the same temple more than half day daily all through his > life is not at all good in any material parameter. most of these > poojaris live below average life in modern standards. here natives > dont feel jealous of the poojari thinking that he is more fortunate > than the pilgrims or visitors just because of being so close to the > god for longer durations. > > hence whether to become a servant and serve others or become a master > and receive services is an individual choice and the astrologer or > poojari is meant only for serving others. here too natives dont feel > that astrologer is so lucky to know his own fate as he is great in > looking all others fates. > RR: Arjun -- Few will understand what you wrote in the above lines but I hope for their sake that they are paying attention! Absolutely in agreement, of course! Our paths may be different but destination hopefully the same, as if there is a duality when it comes to The destination! RR > with best wishes and blessings > pandit arjun > www.rudraksharemedy.com Likewise, Sir! Rohiniranjan > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > <rohini_ranjan@> wrote: > > > > Dear Arjun bhai, > > > > Given that all of us mortals are assured that we will have many > many > > many lifetimes and cycles of births and deaths before we figure out > > or get 'told' what this circus of creation and rebirths was all > > about, should 'one' instance of death among many hundreds of > > thousands that are 'promised' should assume such a make or break > > significance? > > > > I sometimes wonder how focused many of us seem to get on our most > > recent birth epoch and the very next death epoch and forget that we > > are a goldfish trapped in an aquarium which we presume is our > > boundary of experience and reality and fail to realize that that > > aquarium, our immediate home is sitting right in the midst of the > > ocean of creation! What if the jar breaks, even by our own mistaken > > doing, we shall still find ourselves in the Ocean of Grace that > > surrounds our little fish-jar that we thought was our entire life, > > total reality! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > P.S. Pardon for the run-on sentence but somethings thoughts must > not > > be limited and stiffled by traditional punctuation! > > > > > > , " panditarjun2004 " > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > astrologers are torchbearers who give light to others and let > > others > > > shine in that light and hardly do they use the light for their > own > > > use. > > > > > > all those astrologers who decided to burn their karmic kalories > are > > > at peace albeit not successful in material terms. > > > > > > as regards lion, doctor, professor k parthasarathy who was one of > > the > > > most high flying astrologers from chennai, it is unfortunate that > > he > > > predicted his own death on a particular day and two days before > > that > > > Dday he could not bear that he would die in few days and > committed > > > suicide by hanging. > > > > > > hence as per astrology dictums, we shall not predict death > > especially > > > dates of death as the native fearing the arrival of death may > > commit > > > suicide before that date and the astrologer becomes an abettor in > > > that suicidal crime. > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > pandit arjun > > > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > > > > > > > , Prashant Kumar G B > > > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear RRji > > > > > > > > well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is > in > > > store for their personal lives but do they really practice in > > > changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate > > > qurrents > > > > > > > > i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to > > here > > > > > > > > B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back > > > > > > > > on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on > line > > > of succession > > > > > > > > raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED > justice > > G > > > S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died > > > > > > > > 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S- I- > > Law > > > die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but > could > > > not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked > > Gayithri > > > devi to take over > > > > > > > > SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason > > for > > > it and so did not want to do anything against it > > > > > > > > ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing > out > > > gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and > > NO > > > EDITORIAL on astrology > > > > > > > > he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president > > > > and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too > > > > it did not work this way so the magazine died > > > > > > > > WHY > > > > > > > > is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to > > > finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL > > > bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a > example > > > who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. > > > > > > > > my guru too was asked similar questions > > > > > > > > did u know before > > > > when his daughter died at 40 > > > > his wife died 2 yrs later > > > > > > > > I was around before and after their death and he had told a few > > > people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come > > > earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them > before > > > had for all to see in their homes > > > > > > > > my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like > > this > > > > I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING > > > > he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and > be > > > with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later > > > > she did not do so but went to her brothers place > > > > > > > > as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the > > accounts, > > > writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members > > he > > > managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters > > > > and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 > > > > > > > > the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him > > THAT > > > IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is > stable > > by > > > another prop than allow it to fall down > > > > > > > > [he meant the family after he was gone] > > > > > > > > and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the > fan > > as > > > he was sweating > > > > > > > > but she never knew he has write down his end so well > > > > > > > > that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who > > > helped his end be smooth > > > > > > > > all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course > > > > > > > > we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from > > > wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it > > big > > > did suffer > > > > > > > > i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY > > > > > > > > who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short > > quick > > > techniques to cast, read horoscopes > > > > > > > > HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in > his > > > fate > > > > > > > > THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA > > > > but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD > LESS > > > INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS > > > > [may be this was indicated as well] > > > > > > > > I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich > > > experience in itself > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@> > > > wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about > > this? > > > > > > > > Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their > > knowledge > > > of > > > > Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual > > fates > > > > and bounties? > > > > > > > > Have YOU as an astrologer done that? > > > > > > > > We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! > > > > > > > > I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV > > > Raman > > > > or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari > or > > > > Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other > beacons > > > in > > > > the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern > jyotish > > > ever > > > > used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? > > > > > > > > What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and > > Mukunda > > > > Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? > > > > > > > > What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and > > imagine? > > > > > > > > Enquiring minds want to know! > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > > > > Search. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Dear Pt.Arjun ji, A very real and a very touching parallel drawn between an astrologer and a pujari. An astrologer is destined to serve and be happy being a pujari. Any ambitions to be a master will lead to 'ahankar' and earn bad karma. Sincerely, Roopak , " panditarjun2004 " <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear RRji > > since you elicited views of jyotishis, let me put mine as follows: > > firstly i dont believe that everything is 100% preordained or > predestined. > > secondly astrology is only an indicator of what we accrued from > previous birth and to know our karmic statement of account as on the > date of birth. > > thirdly freewill is superior in making a selfmade person with sheer > efforts and determination. > > fourthly, any person can become fortunate or unfortunate in receiving > blessings and boons or curses and wraths. > > fifthly and lastly the evil eye which comes only when all the above > fails and has few takers. > > a jyotishi or astrologer has chosen a profession where his duty is to > help, assist or serve others. hence he shall not be thinking too > much on himself or how his life is. > > to draw a parallel you may find crowds standing in line for several > hours to have a one minute glimpse of a diety in a temple and feel > elated for seeing the god. the poojari who remains in the sanctum > sanctorum of the same temple more than half day daily all through his > life is not at all good in any material parameter. most of these > poojaris live below average life in modern standards. here natives > dont feel jealous of the poojari thinking that he is more fortunate > than the pilgrims or visitors just because of being so close to the > god for longer durations. > > hence whether to become a servant and serve others or become a master > and receive services is an individual choice and the astrologer or > poojari is meant only for serving others. here too natives dont feel > that astrologer is so lucky to know his own fate as he is great in > looking all others fates. > > with best wishes and blessings > pandit arjun > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > , " Rohiniranjan " > <rohini_ranjan@> wrote: > > > > Dear Arjun bhai, > > > > Given that all of us mortals are assured that we will have many > many > > many lifetimes and cycles of births and deaths before we figure out > > or get 'told' what this circus of creation and rebirths was all > > about, should 'one' instance of death among many hundreds of > > thousands that are 'promised' should assume such a make or break > > significance? > > > > I sometimes wonder how focused many of us seem to get on our most > > recent birth epoch and the very next death epoch and forget that we > > are a goldfish trapped in an aquarium which we presume is our > > boundary of experience and reality and fail to realize that that > > aquarium, our immediate home is sitting right in the midst of the > > ocean of creation! What if the jar breaks, even by our own mistaken > > doing, we shall still find ourselves in the Ocean of Grace that > > surrounds our little fish-jar that we thought was our entire life, > > total reality! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > P.S. Pardon for the run-on sentence but somethings thoughts must > not > > be limited and stiffled by traditional punctuation! > > > > > > , " panditarjun2004 " > > <panditarjun2004@> wrote: > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > astrologers are torchbearers who give light to others and let > > others > > > shine in that light and hardly do they use the light for their > own > > > use. > > > > > > all those astrologers who decided to burn their karmic kalories > are > > > at peace albeit not successful in material terms. > > > > > > as regards lion, doctor, professor k parthasarathy who was one of > > the > > > most high flying astrologers from chennai, it is unfortunate that > > he > > > predicted his own death on a particular day and two days before > > that > > > Dday he could not bear that he would die in few days and > committed > > > suicide by hanging. > > > > > > hence as per astrology dictums, we shall not predict death > > especially > > > dates of death as the native fearing the arrival of death may > > commit > > > suicide before that date and the astrologer becomes an abettor in > > > that suicidal crime. > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > pandit arjun > > > www.rudraksharemedy.com > > > > > > > > > , Prashant Kumar G B > > > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear RRji > > > > > > > > well this is a tricky area as the astrologers may know what is > in > > > store for their personal lives but do they really practice in > > > changing or taking corrective measures that they often educate > > > qurrents > > > > > > > > i is mostly a loud NO, i mean the good ones whom u referred to > > here > > > > > > > > B V raman's case I had mailed a few weeks back > > > > > > > > on the demise of astrological magazine by the family fuwd on > line > > > of succession > > > > > > > > raman SURELY SAW THIS AND had IN A egm SUDDENLY NOMINATED > justice > > G > > > S Kapoor to head th OCAS he founded 3 MONTHS before he died > > > > > > > > 2 YRS LATER WHEN KAPOOR himself had HIS ONLY Daughter and S- I- > > Law > > > die in a tragic accident he wanted to quite [he knew this but > could > > > not digest the impact on his abilites to run ICAS] so asked > > Gayithri > > > devi to take over > > > > > > > > SHE flatly refused to do it as she said her father had a reason > > for > > > it and so did not want to do anything against it > > > > > > > > ramans son Niranjan Babu who wanted to run AM after throwing > out > > > gaythri devi cud not run more than 2 issues with old articles and > > NO > > > EDITORIAL on astrology > > > > > > > > he also wanted to be nominated ICAS president > > > > and wanted all ICAS members to be rs too > > > > it did not work this way so the magazine died > > > > > > > > WHY > > > > > > > > is if the karmic debt enviseged to suffer now it is better to > > > finish it than post pone it to later lives, IF U SEE THE TYPICAL > > > bRAHMANICAL RESPONSE TO MANY CRISIS, SAGE parasurama was a > example > > > who took to the AXE, else let it pass is their nature. > > > > > > > > my guru too was asked similar questions > > > > > > > > did u know before > > > > when his daughter died at 40 > > > > his wife died 2 yrs later > > > > > > > > I was around before and after their death and he had told a few > > > people, but this questions every caller asks, wish they had come > > > earlier to know from his mouth or rather may be publish them > before > > > had for all to see in their homes > > > > > > > > my 1st experience with one of my mothers maternal uncle is like > > this > > > > I met him 1st time on 7/1/83 IN A WEDDING > > > > he had told his wife to attend the wedding and not miss it and > be > > > with him till 14/1 and go to her brother's place later > > > > she did not do so but went to her brothers place > > > > > > > > as he had just before coming to the weding closed all the > > accounts, > > > writen what was due next, delegated all the jobs to other members > > he > > > managed a farm for 4 brothers and 3 sisters > > > > and made sone notes in his diary abt 14/1 > > > > > > > > the night before on 13th he told his daughter who was with him > > THAT > > > IF A COT WITH 4 LEGS SUDDENLY LOSSES A LEG TRY TO SEE it is > stable > > by > > > another prop than allow it to fall down > > > > > > > > [he meant the family after he was gone] > > > > > > > > and asked her to shift him to the varranda and switch on the > fan > > as > > > he was sweating > > > > > > > > but she never knew he has write down his end so well > > > > > > > > that he must die with no wife or sons around and a daughter who > > > helped his end be smooth > > > > > > > > all in the diary, never tried to force a change in the course > > > > > > > > we do hear astrologers were cursed by Parvati ma to suffer from > > > wants and financial lows all their life even the ones who made it > > big > > > did suffer > > > > > > > > i HOPE U HAVE HEARD OF lION PARTHASARTHY > > > > > > > > who used to charge a lot 5k upwards TRAVELED WIDE, had short > > quick > > > techniques to cast, read horoscopes > > > > > > > > HE COMITED SUCIDE LAST YR saying this was what is written in > his > > > fate > > > > > > > > THIS i CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AS WE DON'T HAVE HIS DATA > > > > but reports say he lived a life beyond his means WHEN HE HAD > LESS > > > INCOME and WAS IN DEBTS > > > > [may be this was indicated as well] > > > > > > > > I hope others can fill in what they can offer as wel la rich > > > experience in itself > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@> > > > wrote: How do Jyotishis feel about > > this? > > > > > > > > Should Jyotishis utilize information acquired from their > > knowledge > > > of > > > > Jyotish to improve their worldly or even mental or spiritual > > fates > > > > and bounties? > > > > > > > > Have YOU as an astrologer done that? > > > > > > > > We want to hear about your positive or negative experiences! > > > > > > > > I have often wondered about accomplished Jyotishis such as BV > > > Raman > > > > or KN Rao or PS Sastry, or KS Krishnamurthi, or Bepin Behari > or > > > > Sanjay Rath or PVR Narasimha Rao or VK Chowdhry or other > beacons > > > in > > > > the east and the west? Have these great doyens of modern > jyotish > > > ever > > > > used jyotish to figure out their personal problems in life? > > > > > > > > What about Parashara, Kalidasa, Varahamihira, Jaimini and > > Mukunda > > > > Ballabh? And many others to follow those beacons? > > > > > > > > What do we KNOW about these ICONS or do we just assume and > > imagine? > > > > > > > > Enquiring minds want to know! > > > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with > > > > > Search. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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