Guest guest Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 RR Ji, I had announced uploading of this file on Population in Message Number 60128(/message/60128). Nobody took notice of it, but as you evinced interest in it I repeated this announcement few minutes back in message 60164. I had to truncate this article because I was told that this file is too big to be uploaded in JR forum. I had to remove a 12 page bibliography on population research, which was, however, not indespensable from a purely astrological point of view but could be consulted by those who could doubt the DATA I presented as my inventions. In this uploaded file, I presented only the summary. I had no wish to hide my writings. This article, in its original, forms a full chapter in my forthcoming book on Suryasiddhanta. Vedic Astrology has three skandhas. Siddhaanta skandha has been buried by those computerized astrologers who found readymade solutions in softwares. Modern astronomy is no alternative for ancient siddhaanta. For instance, what is the theoretical (siddhaantic) basis of deciding whether Uranus, Neptune, etc are " astrological " planets or not ? Pluto needs 248 years to complete one cycle of 12 raashis, and many such cycles are needed for deciding empirically what should be astrological results of Pluto's wanderings in various raashis and nakshatras. But modern " rishis " shamelessly divined these results without any empirical backing, and they call themselves " scientific " . Now, even scientists are debating whether Pluta is a planet or not. Suryasiddhanta declares that nakshatra - kakshaa has an orbit of 60 years, beyond which all entities ought to be called non-planets. There is no physical entity at this orbit. This orbit of nakshatra - kakshaa is itself orbiting. Sun needs one extra year to reach the same zodiacal point of nakshatra - kakshaa. This is the rationale behind 61 year weather cycle, whose concrete evidences presented by me were accepted by weather experts of Indian Institute of Science, but a handful of persons from AIA are declaring my paper to be fake !! There is no physical explanation for this 61-year cycle. I refused to explain this 61-year cycle as I have done in this private mail either in my paper to IISc or in discussions with Mr Sunil Bhattacharjya, because scientists will throw away any paper containing any reference to Suryasiddhanta. I do not regard Mr Sunil Bhattacharjya as my enemy as you once said. I tolerated greater abuses to me. But I am not going to allow Mr Sunil Bhattacharjya plant deliberate falsehoods on internet fora. He has a right to propagate his hypotheses, right or wrong. But he is saying all this by quoting ancient texts falsely and deliberately. I sent him scanned copies of texts, but to no avail. He has to prove, at ANY cost, that there was no history before 12000 years. In AIA, he destroyed a topic dedicated to mundane astrology by praising virtues of wine , I left the thread which was started by me. He has no interest in astrology. He joined JR at the behest of AIA leader Sreenadh. I tolerated and ignored his wrong mails, even after he started attacking me dishonestly in AIA. But my real differences began when he advised me abot virtues of winw in JR too. Thereafter, I started retorting. There is a limit to tolerance. These fellows prevented me from discussing ancient mundane astrology. Shenoy Ji is the only person who has cared to see my webpages dedicated to mundane astrology. 42000 cycle, 61 year cycle, weather forecasts, human population, etc are related to ancient mundane astrology. But the " stalwarts " of 20th century whome you named in some recent posts buried two things : ancient siddhaanta and ancient samhitaas ; they were interested in only the horaa part because it was popular among those who are interested in astrology merely for pecuniary purposes (I do not mean ALL of them, but the majority). All my efforts to bring back other two skandhas of Jyotisha on internet are frustrated by those who have no interest in these things. In mundane astrology, they do not go beyond transits which they learnt from Western masters and indianized it, although ancient samhitaas also contained these things, but only as parts of a larger whole which these modernisers have neglected, and sometimes make horoscopes of India with birthdate in 1947, forgetting that such an assumption presupposes that India did not exist before 1947. These internet astrologers forget that the mainstream Vedic Astrology in not on internet. All those astrologers are not anachronistic fools who refuse to go by softwares. There are many experienced astrologers who do not use computers because hand made crude panchangas offer better timing of events, eg Vimshottari. I know such astrologers personally. Many of them do not use my software because they have developed an aversion to all softwares and do not wish to see more. But I thank them heartily for preserving a tradition in the face of strong tides of modernism which blindly says old is not gold. -Vinay Jha =================== === ________________________________ Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan Thursday, May 14, 2009 9:07:48 AM Re: World Population : Saamkhya explanation ; Rationale of World Dominance Dear Vinay ji, Was this file you speak of announced? I did not see the announcement. Maye you did not check the box that allows one to announce the file to the group when posted? Regardless of all that, I thank you for all the work you put into it as stated earlier and managed to post your writings for all to sample and hopefully some to benefit from. I will go and read the file sometime soon, and hopefully it is the very same offering that you were earlier providing only exclusively by private email but were subtly encouraged and convinced to post more publicly through a personal decision. Thank you for posting your soul-work so freely and publicly. High or low, small or large, unless we all do that, no matter what, nothing will make any difference or any sense! I think Gandhiji, regardless of what he is perceived as -- and I am no dyed in wool Gandhivadi -- trust me Vinay ji -- I think Gandhiji captured the essence of his personal and human mission! And his role in the immediate reality! The world benefits when such SYNCHRONY happens between the human and divine realities that are connected by one and one only TRUTH! And Gandhiji did deliver his decree and promise very beautifully regardless of how his deliveries were perceived, or carried further subsequently. A Messenger cannot be blamed for how one mistreats a package perfectly delivered... , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > RR Ji, > > I think we should confine ourselves to problem of practical astrology rather than waste our time in providing unsolicited help to scientists. Scientists are not going to pay any heed to astrologers. > > You may lose charm in a thing now which will certainly charm you within few years when actual data will arrive to falsify estimates. I am sorry that you did not care to look at the file Population.doc I uploaded in 'About Astrology' folder of files section in JR. > > -VJ > > ============ ===== ====== > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > > Thursday, May 14, 2009 4:37:20 AM > Re: World Population : Saamkhya explanation ; Rationale of World Dominance > > > > > > No No Vinay jee, I did not mean, " ... human population <should not> be discussed " . The discussion our thread was moving into, whether the number given by you is optimum or maximum or already reached etc was which seemed to lose its charm for me. > > The prediction of an upsurge in viral or bacterial 'population' and its timing and which virus specifically would be of practical importance because it would help the scientists to develop vaccines ahead of time and save a lot of resources (time, money, people-power) worldwide. This I would equate with the weather predictions that astrologers do and which can accurately predict calamities or unusual weather patterns and forewarn the people living in the regions etc. > > I hope you see my point and if not, well ... I tried to convey, anyway! > > RR > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > RR Ji, > > > > You say human population should not be discussed ( " I think this is another of those tangents in which we better not get tangled " ), and now you are interested in population of bacteria !! Here is the formula for counting population of bacteria which I took from a scientific textbook : > > > > P' / P = 1 + [{( 0.0289T)^1}/ 1!] + [{( 0.0289T)^2}/ 2!]+ [{( 0.0289T)^3}/ 3!]+ ... +[{( 0.0289T)^n}/ n!] > > > > where P' is population at time T, P is population at the reference time (starting point), and T is Time in hours after a reference time. > > > > In one year, bacteria population will rise by 3 * 10^21 (= 3000 billion billions) even if we exclude terms higher than 13! in this formula. Scientists do not exclude higher terms, hence actual figure will be infinity ! But infinite number of bacteria cannot be sustained by Earth, hence even this scientific formula is wrong, and there must be some cut off point beyond which terms need to be excluded from the real formula. For humans and other Jivas, that cut off point is 13! for P' and 13 for n, formula being of a different form than above. The humans or jivas in general, formula of population is actually a linear differential equation which unfolds the differential of Zero, in which Zero signifies Purusha of Saamkhya and the first term " 1 " signifies Prakriti, but factorials of both are one, hence Purusha is One, and Prakriti (Adi Shakti) is also one. This formula has 16 terms, signifying 16 petals of Lotus, one petal for one branch of Cosmic > > epicycloid , of which 3 terms are for inner world of Prakriti (3 gunas) and the remaining 13 terms are for 13 layers of Kaalachakra in each khanda kalpa of 42000 years. Sammkhya has two etymologies : ultimate or balanced Knowledge/Perceprio n, and the ultimate/balanced (science of) numbers. Gits says Saamkhya is the ultimate Knowledge. We mortals can get only a tip of this Iceberg. > > > > -VJ > > ============ = === > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan@ ...> > > > > Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:40:59 AM > > Re: World Population : Saamkhya explanation ; Rationale of World Dominance > > > > > > > > > > > > Vinay Ji, > > > > Perhaps 'useless' from a purely research and knowledge point of view but let us say you find a way of predicting the cycles of certain types of bacteria or viruses it might enable scientists to prepare better for such onslaughts as viral microbial diseases that wipe out forests and trees and crops and bring on epidemics and things such as the swine flu epidemic, nearly pandemic that is affecting nations or Asiatic flu or Spanish flu in the past. In the past not much could be done but these days effective vaccines can be fairly easily prepared ahead of time. The annual social cost of influenza (deaths, complications, mortality, disability, work-time lost, etc) itself is enormous from what I hear. If astro researchers who are into study of mundane cycles etc focused on those, they could actually be serving a immediately applied and useful role for societies. > > > > Just a suggestion.. .! > > > > RR > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > I have given the detailed equation for humans. All Jeevas which take rebirth into different yonis contain same number of 13 elements according to Saamkhya philosophy. Which yoni a Jeeva goes into is determined by the proportion of sin and virtue, which is stored with these elements in the form of desires for subjects of senses, egotism for ahamkaara, volition for mana ,and capacity to think according to dharma for Buddhi. > > > > > > I have no data for other species to work on. But I firmly believe that same maximum limit of " 13! " applies to all of them, because it is determined by number of elements. But there are two peculiarities in other species. They may have different lower limits, but I do not know it exactly. Perhaps different species have different lower limits. Secondly, different species have different kaalachakras for each of them. For instance, tigers were more in numbers when humans were less and forests were more. Some specie may be attached to particulat kaala-khandas only, and are extinct in other ages. > > > > > > Bacteria & c cannot be classed under Jeevas. > > > > > > I think it is useless to waste time over those species for which we possess no data to work on. > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > ============ ========= === ====== > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > sureshbabuag <sureshbabuag@ ...> > > > > > > Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:52:18 PM > > > Re: World Population : Saamkhya explanation ; Rationale of World Dominance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namasthe, > > > > > > Thank you for answering my doubt. > > > > > > Though I am aware of the basic concept, I have not read or studied Sankhya Sashtra / Phylosophy deeply. > > > > > > From what you have mentioned, am I to understand that in simply terms that only human race has these 13 elements that accompany the jeeva throughout its sojourn till liberation, But other species do not have 13 elements. I am asking this because you used the word " balanced " in your first post ie : 3+10 for human race and for other species is it 13 in a different combination OR is it less than 13?. If it is less than 13, then number you had given can be considered to reffering to Human species ONLY and that for other species we must compute differently. I am right?. > > > > > > With warm regards > > > A.G.Suresh Babu Shenoy. > > > > > > > > > , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Shenoy Ji, > > > > > > > > I explicitly named Saamkhya as the source of numbers of basic elements, and quoted Gita for the sanctity of Saamkhya. Saamkhya-kaarika of Ishwarachandra is the oldest good source book which I used. Saamkhya-darashanam in Sanskrit can be downloaded from website of Maharishi Institute of Business Managemant in USA. > > > > > > > > You mentio n " 5 elements + mind + soul " . It is a correct but simplified summary of Saamkhya view. Soul is not a constituent element of any type of bhautika or abhautika shareeras. hence, you are left with " 5 elements + mind " . 5 elements have 5 panch-mahabootas plus panch- tanmaatraas, totalling 10 constituents. Mind is a broad term which has two subdivisions : antah-karana and baahya-karanas, which have respectively 3 and 10 subdivisions. See my original mail which describes the 13 elements of kaarana-shareera. 5 bhautika elements like prithvi-jala etc do not accompany the Jeeva after death. These 13 elements of Saamkhya-shaastra of Kapil Muni accompany the Jeeva always, till final moksha. You use the broad term mind for all these 13 constituents, some people use the term chitta, while Saamkhya uses the term kaarana-shareera. > > > > > > > > Do you want me to work on individual segments of human or non-human populations ? Mayas did not disappear. they are still being westernized, slowly. Even today, Maya woman makes roti on tawaa in Indian style. But they have forgotten that they are Mayans, due to centuries of brutal and false education & c. Excepting USA and Canada, bulk of population in meso and south Americas is native, but Christianized and westernized in varying degrees. There is a neat explanation behind western hegemony in modern world according to Prithvi Chakra centred on Meru : > > > > > > > > In all varsha pravesha mesha samkraanti charts of the world, Sun is always exalted, which means nations falling in Leo will be ALWAYS exalted, while other nations will experience boom only when their planets become exalted. Look at the Prithvi Chakra at http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ World+Economy+ %3A+Apr+2009- Mar+2010 > > > > > > > > You will find countries around south Sudan and Ethioipia near Meru, whose hegemony is described even by Herodutus, and Egyptians also believed their civilization came from south. Then came the age of Egyptians, followed by Greeks ans then Romans. It was followed by Spain, France, Habsburg of Germany, and then by Britain, followed lastly by North Americans. During the 42000 years of avasarpini, as you recede from meru you find the region of hegemony. Now utsarpini has begun. It means same process will be reversed : Euro-American dominance will be followed by dominance by Near East. > > > > > > > > But one point must not be forgotten. Venus has a distance of 0.723 AU, which means it cannot move more than 44 degrees away fron Sun in a geocentric frame of reference. Thus , if Sun is at start of Mesha, venus can be from 316 degrees to 44 degrees. Of these 88 degrees, 30 degrees in Meena is exaltated and 14 degrees in Vrisha is svagrihi (own house). Hence, out of 88 degrees, 50% is very good for regions ruled by Venus. It includes India, China andJapan. The implication is that in the initial phase of 42000 year avasarpini phase, India dominated in Asia and adjoining regions, followed by China and lastly by Japan. Now in the utsarpini cycle, which is 36 times faster, we are witnessing reversal of trend : China is now replacing Japan, and India has also started to take off so as to realize its future role of world dominance. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > ============ ====== ============ === > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > sureshbabuag <sureshbabuag@ ...> > > > > > > > > Tuesday, May 12, 2009 2:11:10 PM > > > > Re: World Population : Saamkhya explanation 12/5- 87 B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namasthe, > > > > Dear Vinaj Ji, > > > > > > > > I have been reading this with, I must admit with ammusement. Yet, Since you mentioned some intrinsic principles regarding the subject & Bhagavat Geetha, I have a doubt regarding the concept of numbers. > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that all beings on this earth probably except Keeda species are made up of the same 5 elements + mind + soul. If that is correct(?), are we not talking (these numbers) about all the beings - animals including human race?. > > > > > > > > Is there any indication in the classical works that show that these numbers mention specifically human race?. Even the Vishnu Avatharas represent the evolution from Matsya to Manushya that is reperesented by the kalapurusha by its famous & not so famous forms and is hence the essence of rasi chakra itself. So if the so many avathars like narashimha , mahisha and also Sri Rama & Shri Krisha etc represent the kalapurusha, I am wrong in saying that these numbers, which as you say is brahma vakhya (no sarcasm meant) also represent all these beings and NOT just the human population alone?. > > > > > > > > It is not uncommon for some race to disappear from the face of this earth like famous Mayas. Historians have been trying to fathom the reason without much success with new theories & reasons found every now & then. What in your opinion might have caused this?. It is illogical to say that abandoned their religion and were converted to christianity or islam. This is evident from what is happening to christianity or should I say Churchianity in Kerala. Christains in kerala are slowly turning to hinduism their origin. Practically all the churches have deepa sthambha and they try to mimick hindu festivals. Most of the churches are built very near to temples. Malayattur is a mimickery of sabarimala. Most of them have abandoned their traditional dressings and wear more like hindus. Even their names are hindu names. It might be clever ruse to whoo the Hindu community but I am tend to think this phenomena as a reversal of thinking. Though this is not the > point > > > of > > > > discussion, i reffered to it only to discount the loosing a civilisation to another culture. > > > > > > > > This is not to hurt you in any way. > > > > With warm regards > > > > A.G.Suresh Babu Shenoy > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16@ > > > > > > > > > > > Monday, May 11, 2009 9:36:29 PM > > > > > Re: World Population : Saamkhya explanation > > > > > > > > > > Prashant ji, > > > > > > > > > > You are too curious. I am supplying one of the reasons why 6227 millions and no other figure, on the condition that I have no time for another useless controversy. This 'reason " is rooted in ancient Saamkhya darshana, which Lord Krishna eulogized as the culmination of Knowledge ( " na hi saamkhya samam jnaanan, na hi yuga samam balam " ). > > > > > > > > > > There are two basic entities : Prakriti and Purusha. Purusha is pure Consciousness and intrinsically indivisible, although individual manifestations of purusha entertain illusions of separateness by dint of their bondage to flesh as a result of their past karmas ensuing from desires. Saamkhya is philosophy of the liberated souls, and therefore does not differentiate individual soul from the Universal spirit, and labels both under a single term Jna, for which many ignorant dvaitvaadins charged Saamkhya of atheism. > > > > > > > > > > Prakriti, on the other hand, has 23 constituents, apart from itself. On one side, it has panch-mahabhootas (prithvi, jala...) and their five tan-maatraas (roopa, rasa, gandha, sparsha, shabda). Remaing 13 elements for the kaarana shareera and are therefore called karana (instruments) . There are three antah-karanas : buddhi, ahamkaara and mana, and teh baahya-karanas : five karma-indriyas and five jnaana-indriyas. > > > > > > > > > > The bhautika body does not accompany the soul after death. But the 13 elements accompany the soul from time immemorial, and will continue to accompany till final moksha. > > > > > > > > > > It is this kaarana-shareera which distinguises one jeeva from another. Astrologers know that even twins have some dofference in their charts. Similarly, all kaarana shareeras must have distinctive features to distinguish one jeeva from other. These distinctive features are of two types. One type is proportion of sins and virtues, which are stored in the form of desires with indriyas as Gita says. Birth into human yoni is caused when sins and virtues are approximately balanced with each other. Other type of distinctive features is related to uniqueness of a jeeva within a particular yoni. Since there are 13 constituent elements of kaarana shareera which takes a body during rebirth, there can be Factorial 13 (=13!) number of different distinctive combinations of these 13 elements. > > > > > > > > > > To put it otherwise, a language with 13 letters in its alphabet will have a maximum number of 13! different words in its language, on the condition that all words must have all 13 elements and every individual word must be unique in the sequence of these 13 letters. > > > > > > > > > > 13! is equal to 1 * 2 * 3 ..... *12 * 13 = 6,627,020,800 , or nearly 6227 millions. > > > > > > > > > > Sequence of 13 elements, with their unique proportions of sins and virtues, determines the overall character of a person and it is something like a translation of birthtime horoscope in another language. It is the actual GENETIC code, wnich is non-physical and cannot be deciphered by biologists, but the physical/chemical/ biological genetic code is a result of this non-physical genetic code. > > > > > > > > > > In this sequence, if antah-karana elements take precedence and are pilots, the person will be saaatvika and pious. But if the karma organ phallus occupies the driving seat, the person will become a sex maniac, irrespective of other good or bad qualities. > > > > > > > > > > During satyuga, antah-karana elements took precedence. Hence, Buddhi (saatvika in-tellect capable of listening to in-tuition, different from modern Machiavellian intelligence which is actually extelligence) was foremost leader, followed by Ahamkaara and then my Mana (the egency of Samkalpa). These three elements emained fixed in sequence, and only 10 indriyas could change places in the genetic code. Hence, population was limited to 10!, or to 3,628,800 when modern sub-specie of Homo Sapiens started evolving (actually devolving) in the year 40000 BCE. > > > > > > > > > > One khanda-kalpa is of 43200 years, 42000 years of avasarpini (devolution) and 1200 years of utsarpini (evolution). In 2000 AD (Saura Makara Samkraanti) our avasarpini kaala-khanda ended. During its 42000 years of devolution, population and entire world history moved along a logarithmic timescale based on ten defined by terrestrial loxodrome which is the path on Earth traversed by successive eclipses during millenia. Logarithmic base of ten meant population rose by one factorial point during one point on log scale. Hence, 42000 years befor 2000 AD, population was at 10!, but 4200 years before 2000 AD population rose to 11! or 40 millions in 2200 BC which demographers accept. And 420 years befor 2000 AD, human population reached 12! or 479 millions in 1580 AD ; demographers give estimates around 480 millions. > > > > > > > > > > After that the curve of population growth slowed down gradually, because 13! is the Time Bomb for extinction of human race, which Nature strives to prevent through various peaceful means like rise in impotency or unwillingness to have children as well as through wars, diseases, etc. > > > > > > > > > > At the time of return journey of Comet Hare Paap (Hale Bopp), 4.2 years before 14th Jan 2000 AD , human population was equal to 5784634179 , given by following equation : > > > > > > > > > > -1! + 2! - 3! + 4! - 5! + 6! - 7! + 8! - 9! + 10! - 11! + 12! - 13! = > > > > > > > > > > -1 + 2 - 6 + 24 - 120 + 720 - 5040 + 40320 - 362880 + 3628800 - 39916800 + 479001600 - 6227020800 > > > > > > > > > > When you put these terms in a statistical Series, you get Sum = 57846 lakhs which was actual population in the beginning of Nov 1995, 4.2 years before D-day of 14 Jan 2000 AD. > > > > > > > > > > This population was short of 13! by 4424 lakhs. They were deviants, who deviated from norms. Half of them deviated towards virtues, or at least rejected to abide by the rules of Kaliyugi society, and the other half rejected all morality and were uplifted (or downlifted) by D-day. These 2212 lakh sinners were Doomsdayers who raised a great hue and cry over impending Doomsday in 2000 AD. Instead of repenting and expiating for their sins, they tried to save others, and went headlong to Hell which their perverted brains imagined to be Next Higher World. Hence, world population on 14 Jan 2000 was 6005827490 at the time of Saurpakshiya Makara Samkraanti. > > > > > > > > > > Gregorian reform changed the onset of Christian calendar from Saurpakshiya Makara Samkraanti which was Jan 1 prior to reforms in 1582 AD. > > > > > > > > > > 420 years before 2000 AD was a turning point in world history when 13th factorial of population unfolded, after which Renaissance finally triumphed, physical science and materialism suppressed astrology and religion, and pirates looted the whole planet to bring about an Industrial Revolution, converting farmers into labourers. > > > > > > > > > > When this 13th factorial was near its culmination, the last indriya upastha (phallus) became free to take leadership roles. Homosexuality was even legalized in many materially " advanced " societies. Even traditional societies became open to free sex & c, forgetting that sex was meant for procreation and not for entertainment. Scientists say Homo Sapiens evolved out of vegetarian primate stock, but non-veg diet became a norm among the majority of those who could afford, including most of the scientists. To be anti-natural in all walks of life became a sign of progress at this 13! stage. > > > > > > > > > > After such (carnal) knowledge, what forgivance !(-Waste Land). Extinction of in-tuition and of in-telligence, telepathy, religion, piety, innocence, etc, and consequent extinction of libido and potency as well. Human potency has reduced to half during past five decades, which is a sign of impending extinction. > > > > > > > > > > But nothing to worry about. The Devolutionary phase of avasarpini is over, and evolutionary phase of utsarpini has just begun. Real Pralaya is 2.35 billions of years away, and even khanda pralaya at the end of Kaliyuga is 426891 years away. > > > > > > > > > > If anyone thinks modern unnatural man is capable of evolving into a better specie, it is a wishful figment of imagination. Species do not evolve automatically. Mortals will never see the hands of Mother Nature, Who oversees this miracle of Evolution, which we turn into Devolution. > > > > > > > > > > Nine years ago, an article like this would have invited threats and > > > > > bullets from prophets of Doomsday, but now I do not expect more than > > > > > some mild personal remarks or perhaps abuses. So much evolution has > > > > > already taken place during nine years of utsarpini ! > > > > > > > > > > I will not engage into any controversy. Those who differ will get proofs in due course of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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