A comment on Jyotish-related fora and a question...!

May 24, 2009

Dear All,

I am and have been a member and moderator on many many many cyber-fora and

groups over the years. I realize that initially only very few individuals

dabbled into computer-based groups and were essentially what one would call

'nerds' but then the doors widened and people from all walks of life and

interest entered the scene. On the one hand the scenario became richer from a

cultural point of view, but it also became a bit rowdier, a bit brash, less

respectful and even abusive.

But nowhere have I seen such overt hostility, anger and animosity as on

Jyotish-related groups. There are flame wars on other astrological fora but they

are centered around technical issues, beliefs and so on. Jyotish fora, on the

other hand have increasingly become very adversorial and combative and LOOK OUT

FOR THE LANGUAGE-- WOW!

I thought Jyotish demanded a more disciplined mentality whether for its practice

or learning it! I realize that there are many jyotish fora that use other

languages so I am not sure if this combativeness that we see in the name of

debate is only limited to a few groups or is something specific to Jyotish! Some

kind of natural selection?? GEE I SURE HOPE NOT!!

Cordially,

Rohiniranjan

, Prashant Kumar G B <gbp_kumar

wrote:

>

> Dear Suresh Babu,

>

> a good post esp the last line. i have tried v hard to remain awa y from such

nuicance posts but as usual do respond once in a while when it gets too heavy at

times no action /reaction mau feed their ego so high they HAVE BEEN

SYSTEMATICALLY ABUSING ME, VINAY ji, and the OWNER of this group TANVIR ji, just

because they cud not make it to the top here feel I have a vested interest with

the wwner and a both r in some unholy nexus...

>

> and if u see jyotish ganga [jealous gutter] AIA, now VA when they have a

problem arguing with Vinay ji why bring me or the owner of JR into it, CAN'T

THEY ARGUE ONLY ON THE TOPIC, it is only a reaction and my job of protecting the

good image of the largest astrological group and I choose the week end when the

reaction will be less but the point is delivered to the offenders.

>

> week end most users dom't post as they r using office infrastructure to post

mails, surf and at home enjoy their time.

> this was 1st said by ASHUTOSH JI a stricter moderator of JR than me, I felt

giving some leeve way and a mix of diplomacy and tough talk will work

>

> Ashutosh ji was v hard, strict from day one may be I may never have tos ee

such times.

>

> i will stay away from this for now unless there is too much of -ve flow from

other side

>

> Best wishes

>

> Prashant

>

> ________________________________

> sureshbabuag <sureshbabuag

>

> Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:36:42 PM

> Re: Ayanamsha , Vedic Astrology! 23/5 & Liars

>

> Namasthe,

>

> I have been trying to distance myself from these fracases as much as possible.

It is not uncommon that some heat is generated during a hot discussion. However,

being well-educated persons and intelligent than most common people, we have a

responsibility for being civil particularly in a public forum. Unfortunately,

even private mails are even made a matter of discussion that every one shall

agree, is not appropriate. Further, it is also not very good to jump into

conclusions at what others have expressed and try to assert oneself. Some

persons will be good at expressing themselves than others and yet some will be

good at English than others. What is most important is the intention and essence

of what is said. This forum is intended to help others in resolving their

problems (that is what I think it is) and not to create a state of confusion and

distraught. Any common persons who wants to seek help and guidance here, will be

thinking " if these are people

> are fighting with each other and are confused, how can they guide me?, is

astrology so good to be depended upon? " . Is this the impression we want to

project?.

>

> As far as choice of " Ayanamsa " and Suryasidhanta is concerned let me try to

clarify certain points. From time of Vedas, Astrology has never been an

independent branch of study. It was part and parcel of study of Vedas, Smrithis,

Upanishads etc. This means the knowledge of planets / astrology was backed by

the knowledge of Vedas. It was only a small part of the wholesome knowledge. But

since the last 1000 years or so, Astrology was delineated as an independent

branch and separated from the rest of the traditional knowledge. Though it

gained much popularity, much of the true knowledge was lost or ignored in due

course of time. In recent times due to economic upsurge, many books also began

to appear on astrology, which any one can buy and learn. One can imagine the

confusions it has created even by the posts on this very forum.

>

> Since Sri Vinay Jha has become the focal point in these discussions, I cannot

but express his name though reluctantly. As far as I understand about his

presentation of Suryasidhanta, there is nothing wrong in it and he is not

entirely wrong in saying that physical astronomy is different from the planets

as deities. Perhaps the problem is the way he express it and passionately too.

Too passionate to the liking of others. We shall understand this better if we

remember the controversy of actual moment of Sun rise. Some acharyas claim that

Sun rise is when the " Bimba " is just above the horizon, some claim it when the

half of soorya bimba is visible and some claim it is when the poorna bimba is

seen above the horizon. Similar controversy exists about the lagna also. Some

people say the time of birth is when the head is seen out side, yet some others

say it is when the cries out and some others claim it is when the whole body

comes out (prishtodaya? ). So also

> the position of other planets will also have similar difference of opinion.

>

> Similarly, as Shri Rohini ji has pointed out every mass has a ring of energy

around it, which we have learned in school doing experiment with magnets and

iron powder. This can be called aura or chaya etc. this means the planets like

any mass of body do have an aura of energy ring outside its physical form. This

is not a new finding. Physical astronomy as Shri Vinay Ji calls it relies on the

position of the physical mass of the body (planet), while considering the area

of magnetic force of influence is also not wrong as we are try to equate the

physical existence and its influence. The lagna chart or rasi chakra as we call

it is sthira chakra, the orientation of planets as we see it from earth. In

reality, the alignment of planets are a little different in outer space. All

these various methods of computations and ayanamsa are an effort to synchronize

the sthira chakra with the alignment of planets in the outer space. Within a

small percentage of

> difference depending on the size of planets vs its distance from earth and

sun, no one can claim absolute accuracy over the other. Since we are talking

about the orbit of magnetic spectrum which by itself is very difficult to

compute, their influence over effects is also equally difficult to fathom. The

technical term used by astronomers whether modern or traditional such as

geocentric, heliocentric or merucentric all refer to the alignment of the sthira

with the real positions of planets in the outer space which is also termed chara

chakra. As the centers shift from one school of thought to another, the

interpretations may also need to be changed. This can be seen the difference in

various systems like the common (varaha/parasara/ jaimini) Vs kp system Vs Tajik

system. The surya chara that defines the day/month.year is also a matter of

controversy due to the actual date In the preset calendar terms of 365.25â€¦.

days and 360days (360 spokes of chakra).

>

> Pure astronomers may explain the above in a different and more complex

language.

>

> Our ancient sages have held that we, our surrounding etc are only a smaller

replica of the whole universe or what we call as milky way. This complicates the

matter further. Darshanopanishad provides us an insight on this view.

>

> " pi~Ngalaayaa iDaayaaM tu vaayoH saMkramaNaM tu yat

> taduttaraayaNaM proktaM mune vedaantavedibhiH "

>

> Uttarayana Sankramana occures due to the prana sanchara from Pingala nadi to

Eda Nadi.

>

> iDayaaH pi~NgalaayaaM tu praaNasaMkramaNaM mune

> dakshiNaayanamityuk taM pi~NgaLaayaamiti shruti

>

> Dakshinayana Sankramana occures due the prana sancharana from Eda Nadi to the

Pingala Nadi.

>

> iDaapi~NgaLayoH saMdhiM yadaa praaNaH samaagataH

> amaavaasyaa tadaa proktaa dehe dehabhritaaM vara

>

> Amavaya occures during the union of prana sanchara in Eda Nadi and the

Pingala Nadi

>

> muulaadhaaraM yadaa praaNaH praviShTaH paNDitottama

> tadaadyaM viShuvaM proktaM taapasaistaapasotta ma

> praaNasaMGYo munishreShTa muurdhaanaM praavishadyadaa

> tadantyaM viShuvaM proktaM taapasaistattvachin takaiH

>

> Vishu is the point when the prana situates in the Mooladhara and Moordhani

>

> niH shvaasocChvaasanaM sarva maasaanaaM saMkramo bhavet

> Months occures due to the breathing- inhaling & exhaling process.

>

> iDayaa kUNDaliisthaanaM yadaa praaNaH samagataH

> somagrahaNamityukta M tada tatvavidaaM vara

>

> Chandra grihana occures when prana in the Eda Nadi reaches the Kundali Sthana.

>

> yadaa pi~NgaLayaa praaNaH kuNdaLiisthaanamaag ataH

> tad tad bhavet suuryagrahaNaM munipu~Ngava. .

>

> Surya Grihana occcures when the Prana in the pingala nadi reaches the kundali

sthana.

>

> From the above one can imagine the depth of this science. What all has to

remember is as soon as we assign a number to a planet like longitudes, it ceases

to be mystic in nature. Hence, there is absolutely no point is saying that one

method is human and the other is divine. It just becomes a way of expression and

the learned members need not be agitated over the use of such expressions.

>

> Till a few years back traditional astrologers were dead against computer

generated horoscopes, but has started to accept them. I was playing with

computers when most of the members probably barely knew about its existence

during the early dos3.1 era I created an astrology software with almost 2.5 lack

line of code in c language in early 90's. I have now created much advanced

software with many features suitable for researching and still adding them.

While I am thankful to Shri Vinay ji for providing a software on suryasidhanta,

I sincerely hope that he abstain from jumping into arguments for every posts

even if it doesn't relate to him or for that matter any one. It would be better

if Shri Vinay Ji ignore the musings between Sri VR.Krishna & Shri Rohini Ranjan.

They are old buddies. Truthfully, some times I fail to understand them. But,

Krishna Ji's predictions are at times very accurate with the use " physical

astronomy " like every one else and that is

> what counts as far as a common person is concerned. Rohini Ji has a more

practical approach to life with his radical thinking. And Shri Prashant Kumar

also is well experienced in astrology.

>

> I have been doing research on these subjects now for around 30 years and have

never ceased to be surprised at the amount of information that is still lying

buried in our scriptures. Today I was casually reading Maha Narayanopashid and

came across a verse used in " Mrithika Pooja " , though as a Brahmin, we have used

it several times, I was amused when its real meaning dawned on me.

>

> " ashvakraante rathakraante viShNukraante vasundharaa

> shirasaa dhaarayiShyaami rakshasva maaM pade pade.. "

>

> The learned members can possibly understand its significance and I leave it to

the others to put up some effort.

>

> This science is not going to end up with Surya Sindhanta or its efficacy nor

with Shri Vinay Ji or Hari or Sunil or whatever name. Most of the seniors on

this forum are around 50 (I am actually slightly elder than Shri Prashant Kumar)

and with whatever life is left let us try to gain more knowledge and share it to

help others. frankly speaking I dont care as to when this world is going to end

or whether it crosses the 6777whatever population. what I care is about this

life, how we live it and help others to find a little relief in their suffering.

If we consider the word " akalpayath " , all this is going to be repeated in the

next kalpa or yuga, but can't we make this space a more peaceful and useful

one?, rest assured we may meet again.

>

> I must thank all the elders including Shri Prasant Kumar as moderator for

trying their best to maintain a level of diplomacy. I beg your pardon if I have

sounded a little harsh or out of context. I was pained by post of Shri Prashant

Kumar about liars (I can imagine the pain he is going through) and to see again

a burst of posts that are just repeats of earlier one which doesn't enhance the

image of this esteemed forum.

>

> " satyam bhruuyat priyam bhruuyat "

> " na bhruuyat satyaapriyam "

>

> One should tell the truth and one should tell what others like, but never tell

the truth in a way that others will dislike. In short, use diplomacy.

>

> A.G.Suresh Babu Shenoy.

>

May 24, 2009

T All,

RR Ji in right in saying " Jyotish demanded a more disciplined mentality " .

Qualities needed for a Jyotishi are mentioned in ancient texts. But during

ancient ages, there were pseudo-astrologers known as Nakshatra-soochakas who

robbed people in the name of a false astrology. Manusmriti and Mahabharata

called them pankti-dooshakas (ie, not fit for sitting in the line of Brahmins in

a shraaddha feast) and chaandaalas (butchers, who were devoid of compassion for

the distressed people who come to astrologers fro relief). But now, eveyone is

free to become a jyotishi.

In the name of debate, only rubbish is being supplied. I have been target of

socalled " debates " , tests etc. Has anyone ever seen any case study by anyone

falsifying my software ? Some people want to disprove me by means of abuses and

airy arguments, instead of case studies. They wanted case studies of their nears

and dears, while I want case studies of authentic cases whose data can be

independently attested. In reply, I was told that even birthdata of celebrities

are doubtful. Thus, mundane astrology is the only field where releble data can

be obtained for case studies. I am preparing a database of such case studies of

past events and predictions of future events. First installment will be

announced within a few days.

Combativeness in astrological fora is a reflection of comabativeness outside

fora. I have seen practicing astrologers abusing each other for getting more

clients. But I am surprised why such persons are targetting me, because I am not

in business at all. No software developer is asked such questions as are being

put to me. If my software is untouchable, it should be forgotten ; all problem

will end. But no, they want to remove Suryasiddhanta from the world. For it,

they will have to exterminate all those universities which teach it and all

those panchangas which are based on it. Yesterday, I got a message (from a good

person) which said that traditional astrologers were refusing to accept computer

generated horoscopes, but now some of them are accepting. I received another

message (from an experienced internet astrologer) which said physical astronomy

is the " accepted norm " , which implied tacitly that all those astrologers who

still refuse computer

generated horoscopes based on physical astronomy are not human beings and their

view must be suppressed in all internet fora ! If intolereance is suppressed,

there will no problem at all. With prejudiced attitudes, even impartial testing

cannot be expected. I hope things will begin to improve gradually by first week

of July.

-VJ

======================== ====

________________________________

Rohiniranjan <rohini_ranjan

Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:04:51 AM