Guest guest Posted November 3, 2006 Report Share Posted November 3, 2006 Hello Kumar, Weak planets result in problems with their significations through delays, losses and obstructions. Best wishes, - " selvakumar S " <selvakumarnagai Friday, November 03, 2006 1:17 PM 12th House > Sir, > Does 12th house play important role in marriage happiness Sir. What > would happen if 12 th house and planets in 12th house are very weak . > > Thanks > Kumar > > > > > Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call > rates. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2007 Report Share Posted June 22, 2007 Dear All, I have chart of one of my friend with 5 planets in 12th house. He is virgo lagna PArminder 13-sep-1979 08:30Am, chandigarh.India Virgo lagna- Venus-debili 6th house-ketu 9th house-moon-mooltrikona 10th house- Mars 12th sun,mer,rah,jup,sat Can someone pls share the views about such conjunction in 12th house. Best Wishes, Arvind ______________________________\ ____ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. http://videogames./platform?platform=120121 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Thanks for the terrific research Therese. Just so that I understand it correctly, when you said Indian 12th Bhava cusp,it would be 15 degrees in the middle of 12th house I do know at least 4 close friends who all have Sun in 12th house. Can post the data too. One thing that strikes out is their international/global outlook. I could never quite figure out if they became friends with me as they couldn't belong in what would be their natural ingroups and found an exotic foreigner to hang out with:)) At least 3 of these have travelled to other countries or had a very strong desire to do so. Vedically, Sun is considered MKS ( marana karana sthana), 'near-death state' in 12th house, the planet feels very weak. For some strange reason unknown to me only in case of a Libra Ascendant Sun in 12th house is actually considered very good. I think we can safely say that Sun in 12th is great for faraway travels and an international outlook at the least. rgds Shiv , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I've finished a quick look at all the ADB people who had the Sun within 7 > degrees of the Indian 12th bhava cusp, and the Moon within 10 degrees of > the cusp. The profiles certainly aren't what we've been led to expect of > the 12th house. > > First of all the majority of these people tend to be 'movers and shakers' > as society would view them. If I simply listed the occupations, the general > tone of these people would be lost, so I'll try to give a better picture by > including more details. Most of these people could be said to express > different sides of Jupiter; they exhibit: > > MULTIPLE SKILLS AND TALENTS. Here are some examples: > > Jeff Anders: American astrologer, relocated to Europe where he teaches, > lectures and counsels on a wide range of personal growth, transofrmatonal > and metaphysical subjects...He is also a managaement and organizational > consultant with degrees in internationsl relations and foreign trade. > > So to try to put Jeff Anders into a single box called 'astrologer' or > 'counselor' wouldn't work. This same problem exists for many of the 43 12th > house people with enough biograpahical material to be associated with > professions. Other examples: > > Jim Baker, Reublican politician, jurist, corporate lawyer, and financier; > Managed Reagan's campaigns. > > Pierre Brossolatte, French foreign news editor, miliant socialist, and > member of the resistance during the German occupation. > > Lorraine Kelly, Scottish newspaper journalist, BBC researcher, TV > presenter, traveled a great deal on location, very popular TV personality. > ---- > > We do have the CRIMINAL ELEMENT: > > A homicide who sent his estranged girlfriend a box that exploded when she > opened it resulting in her death. > A con-man and embezzler > A well known male prostitute who had his own group of employed prostitutes > ---- > > ACTIVISTS > > Example: A woman with breast cancer who then devoted her life to cancer > eduation, fund raising and advocacy. Volunteered as a spokesman for the > American Cancer Society and other orgs. A champion activist. > ---- > > There are only one or two cases of quiet people in mundane type jobs. So > the 12th is not a house of seclusion. > > There are a few tragic, but dramatic deaths in this 12th house group. Since > these people were so complex, I'm having trouble organizing categories for > the 12th. I'll try to post a more detailed analysis later. The main pattern > is that the ADB 12th house Suns and Moons are noted by the public in some > way. They aren't average people who get lost in the crowd. They aren't your > average actor or actress who don't have a cause or goal beyond their own > personal career. > > This pattern of being 'out there' goes along with so many U.S. presidents > and top officials of other countries having 12th house Suns. Somehow these > 12th house people end up in charge, whether it's creating their own > business, building a fashion empire, becoming known as a musician with > unique talents or running a presidential campaign, etc. > > So 12th house personalities don't resemble tropical Pisces. They may be > said to resemble tropical Aries (*Sidereal* Pisces) in that they are > outgoing personalities who tend to have a public cause. They forge ahead > with their goals and objectives that are more than likely to influence > others. These people definitely have multliple talents, which would match > the supposed multiplicity of Pisces. > > We're seeing that the 11th and 12th houses are distinct from each other in > the type of people who have both lights in those houses. > > This post is a only a draft, as it will take some time to place some order > in 12th house personalities. Maybe that's the clue: You can't organize them > into categories in the usual way. They are unique people. > > Therese > > > > > > This house definitely has an ENTREPRENEUR tone. There are business owners, > Gerogio Armani who founded a fashion empire, an astrologer who has his own > company > > > > These people seem to have made a unique name for themselves or have been > elevated to postions of being in charge: > > A muscian known for his stage improvisations. > An actor who is also a preoducer > A sprots chamption who's also an activist > > There are two authors, but not just any author. One has authored 21 novels, > and another was a speech writer > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 At 01:35 AM 5/22/08 -0000, Shiv wrote: >Thanks for the terrific research Therese. Just so that I understand it >correctly, when you said Indian 12th Bhava cusp,it would be 15 degrees >in the middle of 12th house. Yes, that's it. >I do know at least 4 close friends who all have Sun in 12th house. Can >post the data too. One thing that strikes out is their >international/global outlook. I could never quite figure out if they >became friends with me as they couldn't belong in what would be their >natural ingroups and found an exotic foreigner to hang out with:)) If the 12th is truly Jupiterian, then these friends like to be friends with everyone. If you have time, it would be helpful to have the data for these friends and short bios to go with the data. The problem with AstroDatabank is there isn't enough balance with ordinary people. >At least 3 of these have travelled to other countries or had a very >strong desire to do so. I've been saying for a long time that the 12th rules foreign travel, or liking to move around in general and be a kind of gypsy because it's the natural house of Pisces which rules the feet. But everyone kept saying that it's a house of seclusion. >I think we can safely say that Sun in 12th is great for faraway >travels and an international outlook at the least. Yes, that's a good way of understanding the 12th!! Eventually someone will have to write a new book on the houses--after a lot of research is completed. The 12th does indeed seem to have a Jupiter flavor. There are still some posts I want to reply to that will take more time than I have right now--one of yours and Sari's research post. Maybe some others back there too. Blessings, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Shiv... Some of what you've said reminds me of myself and I have Moon in 12. I've had friends of all races and many nationalities. I also have (don't know if this has anything to do with it) eclectic taste in music, food, etc. I always attributed this to Moon/Uranus conjunction trined by Neptune...but maybe it has to do with being in 12th. I've done some traveling outside the US but not as much as I'd like to because of $$$$ limitations. ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Shiv Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:36 PM Re: 12th house Thanks for the terrific research Therese. Just so that I understand it correctly, when you said Indian 12th Bhava cusp,it would be 15 degrees in the middle of 12th house I do know at least 4 close friends who all have Sun in 12th house. Can post the data too. One thing that strikes out is their international/global outlook. I could never quite figure out if they became friends with me as they couldn't belong in what would be their natural ingroups and found an exotic foreigner to hang out with:)) At least 3 of these have travelled to other countries or had a very strong desire to do so. Vedically, Sun is considered MKS ( marana karana sthana), 'near-death state' in 12th house, the planet feels very weak. For some strange reason unknown to me only in case of a Libra Ascendant Sun in 12th house is actually considered very good. I think we can safely say that Sun in 12th is great for faraway travels and an international outlook at the least. rgds Shiv @ <%40> , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I've finished a quick look at all the ADB people who had the Sun within 7 > degrees of the Indian 12th bhava cusp, and the Moon within 10 degrees of > the cusp. The profiles certainly aren't what we've been led to expect of > the 12th house. > > First of all the majority of these people tend to be 'movers and shakers' > as society would view them. If I simply listed the occupations, the general > tone of these people would be lost, so I'll try to give a better picture by > including more details. Most of these people could be said to express > different sides of Jupiter; they exhibit: > > MULTIPLE SKILLS AND TALENTS. Here are some examples: > > Jeff Anders: American astrologer, relocated to Europe where he teaches, > lectures and counsels on a wide range of personal growth, transofrmatonal > and metaphysical subjects...He is also a managaement and organizational > consultant with degrees in internationsl relations and foreign trade. > > So to try to put Jeff Anders into a single box called 'astrologer' or > 'counselor' wouldn't work. This same problem exists for many of the 43 12th > house people with enough biograpahical material to be associated with > professions. Other examples: > > Jim Baker, Reublican politician, jurist, corporate lawyer, and financier; > Managed Reagan's campaigns. > > Pierre Brossolatte, French foreign news editor, miliant socialist, and > member of the resistance during the German occupation. > > Lorraine Kelly, Scottish newspaper journalist, BBC researcher, TV > presenter, traveled a great deal on location, very popular TV personality. > ---- > > We do have the CRIMINAL ELEMENT: > > A homicide who sent his estranged girlfriend a box that exploded when she > opened it resulting in her death. > A con-man and embezzler > A well known male prostitute who had his own group of employed prostitutes > ---- > > ACTIVISTS > > Example: A woman with breast cancer who then devoted her life to cancer > eduation, fund raising and advocacy. Volunteered as a spokesman for the > American Cancer Society and other orgs. A champion activist. > ---- > > There are only one or two cases of quiet people in mundane type jobs. So > the 12th is not a house of seclusion. > > There are a few tragic, but dramatic deaths in this 12th house group. Since > these people were so complex, I'm having trouble organizing categories for > the 12th. I'll try to post a more detailed analysis later. The main pattern > is that the ADB 12th house Suns and Moons are noted by the public in some > way. They aren't average people who get lost in the crowd. They aren't your > average actor or actress who don't have a cause or goal beyond their own > personal career. > > This pattern of being 'out there' goes along with so many U.S. presidents > and top officials of other countries having 12th house Suns. Somehow these > 12th house people end up in charge, whether it's creating their own > business, building a fashion empire, becoming known as a musician with > unique talents or running a presidential campaign, etc. > > So 12th house personalities don't resemble tropical Pisces. They may be > said to resemble tropical Aries (*Sidereal* Pisces) in that they are > outgoing personalities who tend to have a public cause. They forge ahead > with their goals and objectives that are more than likely to influence > others. These people definitely have multliple talents, which would match > the supposed multiplicity of Pisces. > > We're seeing that the 11th and 12th houses are distinct from each other in > the type of people who have both lights in those houses. > > This post is a only a draft, as it will take some time to place some order > in 12th house personalities. Maybe that's the clue: You can't organize them > into categories in the usual way. They are unique people. > > Therese > > > > > > This house definitely has an ENTREPRENEUR tone. There are business owners, > Gerogio Armani who founded a fashion empire, an astrologer who has his own > company > > > > These people seem to have made a unique name for themselves or have been > elevated to postions of being in charge: > > A muscian known for his stage improvisations. > An actor who is also a preoducer > A sprots chamption who's also an activist > > There are two authors, but not just any author. One has authored 21 novels, > and another was a speech writer > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi, Just to chime in here my husband has Sun in the 12th...he is a truck driver..loves it..the gypsy in him and he talks to everyone. I had wondered on this subject before and couldn't figure it as I thought it was more seclusion. thanks for the info there. Lhynn Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: At 01:35 AM 5/22/08 -0000, Shiv wrote: >Thanks for the terrific research Therese. Just so that I understand it >correctly, when you said Indian 12th Bhava cusp,it would be 15 degrees >in the middle of 12th house. Yes, that's it. >I do know at least 4 close friends who all have Sun in 12th house. Can >post the data too. One thing that strikes out is their >international/global outlook. I could never quite figure out if they >became friends with me as they couldn't belong in what would be their >natural ingroups and found an exotic foreigner to hang out with:)) If the 12th is truly Jupiterian, then these friends like to be friends with everyone. If you have time, it would be helpful to have the data for these friends and short bios to go with the data. The problem with AstroDatabank is there isn't enough balance with ordinary people. >At least 3 of these have travelled to other countries or had a very >strong desire to do so. I've been saying for a long time that the 12th rules foreign travel, or liking to move around in general and be a kind of gypsy because it's the natural house of Pisces which rules the feet. But everyone kept saying that it's a house of seclusion. >I think we can safely say that Sun in 12th is great for faraway >travels and an international outlook at the least. Yes, that's a good way of understanding the 12th!! Eventually someone will have to write a new book on the houses--after a lot of research is completed. The 12th does indeed seem to have a Jupiter flavor. There are still some posts I want to reply to that will take more time than I have right now--one of yours and Sari's research post. Maybe some others back there too. Blessings, Therese To bring anything into your life....Imagine that it is already there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 At 10:41 PM 5/21/08 -0700, Lhynn wrote: >Hi, > > Just to chime in here my husband has Sun in the 12th...he is a truck driver..loves it..the gypsy in him and he talks to everyone. > I had wondered on this subject before and couldn't figure it as I thought it was more seclusion. Thanks for the info there. ---- Thanks for letting us know about your husband, Lhynn! Would it be possible to post his birth data and the years he's been drving trucks? Also any other bio information you'd like to give us. We'er badly in need of birth charts and biographies for other occupations besides actors, actresses, politicians and astrologers. My daughter has her ascendant lord in the 12th with the south node in trine to Mercury in 4th, and she's genuinely a gypsy. She moved into an RV and led th RV life for awhile, but now with diesel fuel so expensive she's coming home to roost. She gets very jittery if she has to stay in one place for too long. I must apologize again for delays in replying to longer posts--not enough hours in the day. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi, Sure his birth data is Ted 12-6-1953 9:01 am Sacramento, Calif He has been driving trucks for about 9 years now..worked for the government prior to that. He was diagnosed with ADD before I met him...he does have sun, moon, mercury and venus there also. He can be very secretive also..and gypsy like. The Add doesn't shine out for anyone to see really...and he never told me about this until we were married for 3 yrs...which wasn't a good thing to do...as i probably wouldn't have married him knowing that. Not good with money at all..runs thru his fingers. He is a very hard worker His 12th is in scorpio so the secretive part is apparent there. He talks to everyone and is super personable..can be very critical of others but not to there face. Let me see...he is very respondsible but only to himself if you know what I mean. he can be very sweet..other times moody. He is gone 3 to 4 days a week..which is good for us both lol His best orientation is to his job..that is where he is very conscientous the most. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I have a son from a previous marriage who is gay he has 3 houses in the 12th...venus, mars and moon he is very creative..a hairstylist and a graphic artist, excellent in writing and all kinds of art. he has opportunites more than anyone you have ever seen..they just present themselves to him on a platter. High IQ...hmmm trying to see what else here..loyal and very close to myself since a baby..he lives an hour or so away and will call me 4 times a week he is 29 this week. ask questions if you have them his DOB is Dave 5-24-1979 5:55 am El Paso , Texas Lhynn Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: At 10:41 PM 5/21/08 -0700, Lhynn wrote: >Hi, > > Just to chime in here my husband has Sun in the 12th...he is a truck driver..loves it..the gypsy in him and he talks to everyone. > I had wondered on this subject before and couldn't figure it as I thought it was more seclusion. Thanks for the info there. ---- Thanks for letting us know about your husband, Lhynn! Would it be possible to post his birth data and the years he's been drving trucks? Also any other bio information you'd like to give us. We'er badly in need of birth charts and biographies for other occupations besides actors, actresses, politicians and astrologers. My daughter has her ascendant lord in the 12th with the south node in trine to Mercury in 4th, and she's genuinely a gypsy. She moved into an RV and led th RV life for awhile, but now with diesel fuel so expensive she's coming home to roost. She gets very jittery if she has to stay in one place for too long. I must apologize again for delays in replying to longer posts--not enough hours in the day. Therese To bring anything into your life....Imagine that it is already there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2008 Report Share Posted May 22, 2008 Thanks so much for the data and bio info on your two sons, Lhynn! So very helpful to astrology. If you like you can give your own data and bio info too. I'm starting a file of charts that aren't actors and politicians, etc.--I mean people who aren't tremendously famous. I'll try to comment on the charts later. No time until this evening. Blessings, Therese At 10:49 AM 5/22/08 -0700, Lhynn wrote: >Hi, > > Sure his birth data is > Ted > 12-6-1953 > 9:01 am > Sacramento, Calif >(...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Hi Therese and others, I ordered ADB 4 yesterday because ADB 3 has difficulties in Windows Vista, so I'm not doing any new studies for a few days (and after that I've enormous lot to do!). But I have an earlier study of people who have a lot of planets in the 12th Sripati houses, done with ADB 3 using Astrosignature which sorts the charts for you according to how many planets fulfill the criteria (in this case a planet in the 12th house), hope that fits. More about that later. In my study of 20 samples the ones with biggest emphasis in the 12th house were 1. 66 rugby players 2. 655 pop/rock singers 3. 150 adventurers/explorers The ones with least emphasis in the 12th house were 1. 72 people with unusual diets (mostly vegetarians) 2. 95 nazis 3. 85 rapists. The result might pertain to the 12th house as the house of collective subconscious - often people think that it's something deep and spiritual, but if you think about it a bit closer, what really fills our collective subconscious? - Movies, music, politics, entertainment; Paris Hilton, Princess Diana... every country has its own images there. There's a link to politicians, you need to speak to the masses on the deeper, subconscious level to get them to vote you, like Barack Obama has done in this campaign. A politician must have something in him/her to evoke a emotional response in the minds of people - in the collective mind of the people. In America rugby players are probably a part of that collective image gallery. Pop/rock singers are part of that gallery everywhere. Explorers fit with the theme of the 12th house as the house of foreign countries and travel. But how nasty to not have planets in the 12th! The 12th house seems somehow to be an antithesis to discipline and severity. It has colour, imagination, fantasy. But you cannot be hidden to gain prominence in the collective unconsciousness of the people. No, you have to be visible, people have to know you. Maybe that's why the 12th house is above the horizon. The planets there *are* visible. I wouldn't connect the 12th house to Pisces, neither tropical nor sidereal; of course I may change my mind later. I rather like to think about the Thema Mundi chart, used by Hellenistic astrologers as a teaching device. In the chart Cancer is the 1st house, Leo is the 2nd house, Virgo the 3rd, and so on. This chart is rediscovered by tropical astrologers in Project Hindsight, but one very interesting feature of it is that it's impossible on the current tropical zodiac! Think about modern tropical Cancer for example, it could never a 1st house sign with its need for seclusion. In Thema Mundi charts 12th house goes to Gemini. Gemini is ruled by Mercury = mind, communication. Actors and performers often have a prominent sidereal Gemini. A few months ago I posted a little study pertaining to Ardra nakshatra in mid-Gemini about people who have three planets in Ardra. Here is a few people from that study, all quotes are from AstroDatabank 3. Luisa Tetrazzini is of course my all-time favourite of these ;o): - Loni Anderson, and actor with Venus, Rahu and Moon in Ardra " .Anderson also did movies, including Born Yesterday, 1970, in which she discovered that she could play a bimbo well. " - Anne Murray, a pop and country singer with Mercury, Rahu and Saturn in Ardra, " .In concerts, she has tried to transform and update her image by sporting short, spiky blonde hair, wearing hems above the knees with sexy tights and telling risqué jokes. " - Luisa Tetrazzini, the greatest coloratura soprano of pre-WW I history with the Ascendant, Rahu, Sun and Jupiter in Ardra, " .Every six or seven weeks she would declare 'Ah no singa tonight.' The impresario, at his wit's end, would ask why and she would say, 'Ah wants a man.' When a man was found who would give his all for the cause of opera, after one look at the great diva, he often needed a bit of pecuniary incentive to conclude his part of the bargain. The result was a superb performance by the prima donna. Tetrazzini exemplified the life force as much as she did bel canto, and the sheer exuberance of her singing can still set a room on fire. " - Starlady, an astrologer with Ketu, Mercury and Mars in Ardra, " .known as a character who floats her ample size through a conference in a flowing dress and a huge, magnificent hat. When asked where she got her hat, she quips, 'I made it. Darling you can't buy trash like this.'. " - Milton Berle, a TV comedian with Rahu, Mercury and Venus in Ardra, " .Enormously funny, with great energy and versatility, he laid out rapid gags and broad clowning, and was named 'the television star of the year'. " - Empress Soraya Pahlavi, first wife of the Shah of Iran with the Sun, Venus and Mercury in Ardra, " .Stylish and cosmopolitan, [after the divorce] she joined the jet-set life style. " They lack severe self-discipline in the same way than severe self-discipline seems to be lacking in the 12th house. Shiv put here the link to Barbara Pijan Lama's site http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/bAstrHom.htm and there you can find a wealth of information and a really interesting exploration into the meanings of the 12 houses. Pijan Lama relies on the natural zodiac though, she says that the 1st house is the house of Mars, the 2nd is the house of Venus etc. But I think I pass that by, and look at what else she has to say. What I've read so far contains many really interesting insights. For example the 2nd house is the house of family, Pijan Lama writes about it: " Saturation (death) of individuality, as the personal uniqueness in overwhelmed by the common traits within the family. Saturation (death) of independent action, and the weight of lineage values (Skandha) overdetermines the possibility of free choice. " So that's what the second house means: the family inheritance you get immidiatedly after you've born, you've born into certain family, and your early environment, the culture that you've born into dictates a big part of your life. Bijan Lama associates that with Taurus, but think about Leo and especially Magha nakshatra - ancestors! Family traditions! Dignity... I recommend especially the chapter of the Asc ruler in different houses http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/1tanu_L1_in_12_domains.htm . -------- Now here's the study about people with a lot of planets in the 12th house. I found 22 charts with five or six (of the nine Vedic planets) in the 12th Sripati house. 1. Brooke Smith. American writer, teacher, lecturer, conference speaker and professional astrologer, the President of ISAR's Los Angeles, CA chapter in 1982. (---) In 1969 he was working as a computer programmer as well as doing research into human potential. Saturn, Sun, Venus, Jupiter and Mercury in the 12th house. 2. Dana Haynes. American astrologer who began her study at 14 with her mom, who was an astrologer but more skilled in numerology. The whole family was psychic but Haynes insists on backing up her psychic abilities with astrological indicators. (---) A strong TV personality, she has appeared on many programs, as well as radio and in magazine articles, and has lectured to corporate conventions. Sun, Saturn, Mercury, Venus and Jupiter in the 12th house. 3. Pierre Teilhard De Chardin. French paleontologist and Jesuit priest known for scientific and genetic research and for philosophical works on the meaning of evolution and the future of mankind. A Christian mystic, he sought to reconcile the Christian message with modern science. Controversial, he has emerged as an important force in contemporary thought, but was forbidden by his religious superiors to publish any works aside from those on paleontology during his lifetime, which caused him great distress. Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter, Sun and Venus in the 12th house. 4. K.N. Rao Indian celebrated Hindu astrologer based in Delhi and author of several illuminating books about jyotish (Vedic), spiced with his ever pertinent and out-spoken comments. Ketu, Mercury, Sun, Moon and Venus in the 12th house. 5. Carson Daly. American actor who made his television debut with MTV in 1997. He is the host of " Total Request Live, " a daily show devoted to music and interviews, and has a large fan following. Saturn, Sun, Ketu, Venus and Mercury in the 12th house. 6. Felicien David. French ecclesiastic, a Roman Catholic priest and Jesuit Chapel master as a musician and composer. Mercury, Ketu, Sun, Venus and Jupiter in the 12th house. 7. Juergen Hoppman. German pro astrologer and Christian esoteric, an occultist and natural healing practitioner, a body therapist with massage. He is also a data collector and an author, the advocate of a psychological and esoteric oriented astrology. Mers, Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus in the 12th house. 8. Bertrand Tavernier. French writer, publicist and film director. Moon, Mercury, Sun, Venus, Saturn and Jupiter in the 12th house. 9. Isabelle Duchnesnay. Canadian pro ice dancer/skater. Mars, Ketu, Mercury, Venus and Moon in the 12th house. 10. Jon Peck: American journalist and noted family, the son of actor Gregory Peck and a reporter for KCOY TV station for six years. Rahu, Sun, Moon, Venus and Mercury in the 12th house. 11. James Whitmore: American actor on stage and film who is best known for his stage impersonations of famous people. Saturn, Jupiter, Sun, Moon and Rahu in the 12th house. 12. Claude Brasseur: French actor, the youngest member of an acting family famed in France since 1820. Mercury, Venus, Mars, Sun and Ketu in the 12th house. 13. Prince Constantijn Christof: Dutch royalty, the third son of Queen Beatrix and Prince-Consort Claus von Amsberg. Venus, Mercury, Moon, Jupiter and Sun in the 12th house. 14. Hondo Havlicek: American athlete who specialized in basketball and had a long career with the Boston Celtics from 1962-78. He has been elected to the Hall of Fame. Sun, Ketu, Jupiter, Moon and Saturn in the 12th house. 15. Ivano Piero Nava: Italian citizen who was in a car on the street in Argenta, Sicily when he witnessed the murder of Judge Livatino on 9/21/1990. He recognized the killer and reported the crime to the police. His testimony was so precise that it aided the identification, arrest and conviction of the killer. However, his life was completely upset. He had to change his name, his work and identity to escape a brutal revenge by the Mafia. He and his family went into the Witness Protection Program sponsored by the state, totally uprooting their lives and losing money, their house and job. Mars, Sun, Venus, Moon and Mercury in the 12th house. 16. Pierre Boileau: French author, famed for his creation, with his co-writer Thomas Narcejac, of what is termed the ''French suspense.'' Sun, Venus, Mars, Moon and Jupiter in the 12th house. 17. Reinhard Hauff: German actor, writer, director and producer whose main body of work was on early television. Saturn, Venus, Ketu, Mercury and Sun in the 12th house. 18. Joaquim Nabuco: Brazilian politician and diplomatic; died in Washington DC while on assignment 1/17/1910. Sun, Mercury, Jupiter, Rahu and Moon in the 12th house. 19. James MacDonald: Scottish botanist, professor of botany and author of " Introduction to Mycology " released in 1951 as well as other science papers. Sun, Rahu, Mars, Mercury and Venus in the 12th house. 20. Imca Marina: Dutch popular singer who writes for a gossip magazine, an advice column to those in despair. Saturn, Sun, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury in the 12th house. 21. Gordon Brown: the Prime Minister of Great Britain. Sun, Jupiter, Rahu, Mars and Venus in the 12th house. 22. Massimo Serato: Italian actor who fathered a son, Luca Magnani, with actress Anna Magnani. Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Sun and Venus in the 12th house. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2008 Report Share Posted May 23, 2008 Sari... It seems odd that the 12th is considered malefic while it has such a positive side...but then, fame isn't always all that positive. I think that the 12th has to do with sacrifice, and famous folks do indeed have to sacrifice a lot. One would think that if a house ruler was in 12 it would indicate loss of whatever that house has rulership over (7th for spouse, 5th for children, etc.). But, it could be another kind of loss...like loss of money, of privacy, of a career. I have 2nd ruler in 12th and 12th ruler in 5th and my husband has 5th ruler in 12th, and 12th ruler cnj 2nd ruler and the vast bulk of our money goes to our children...mostly edu and also other things they need...but not frivolous things. Something to think about. ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Sari M Friday, May 23, 2008 6:50 AM Re: 12th house Hi Therese and others, I ordered ADB 4 yesterday because ADB 3 has difficulties in Windows Vista, so I'm not doing any new studies for a few days (and after that I've enormous lot to do!). But I have an earlier study of people who have a lot of planets in the 12th Sripati houses, done with ADB 3 using Astrosignature which sorts the charts for you according to how many planets fulfill the criteria (in this case a planet in the 12th house), hope that fits. More about that later. In my study of 20 samples the ones with biggest emphasis in the 12th house were 1. 66 rugby players 2. 655 pop/rock singers 3. 150 adventurers/explorers The ones with least emphasis in the 12th house were 1. 72 people with unusual diets (mostly vegetarians) 2. 95 nazis 3. 85 rapists. The result might pertain to the 12th house as the house of collective subconscious - often people think that it's something deep and spiritual, but if you think about it a bit closer, what really fills our collective subconscious? - Movies, music, politics, entertainment; Paris Hilton, Princess Diana... every country has its own images there. There's a link to politicians, you need to speak to the masses on the deeper, subconscious level to get them to vote you, like Barack Obama has done in this campaign. A politician must have something in him/her to evoke a emotional response in the minds of people - in the collective mind of the people. In America rugby players are probably a part of that collective image gallery. Pop/rock singers are part of that gallery everywhere. Explorers fit with the theme of the 12th house as the house of foreign countries and travel. But how nasty to not have planets in the 12th! The 12th house seems somehow to be an antithesis to discipline and severity. It has colour, imagination, fantasy. But you cannot be hidden to gain prominence in the collective unconsciousness of the people. No, you have to be visible, people have to know you. Maybe that's why the 12th house is above the horizon. The planets there *are* visible. I wouldn't connect the 12th house to Pisces, neither tropical nor sidereal; of course I may change my mind later. I rather like to think about the Thema Mundi chart, used by Hellenistic astrologers as a teaching device. In the chart Cancer is the 1st house, Leo is the 2nd house, Virgo the 3rd, and so on. This chart is rediscovered by tropical astrologers in Project Hindsight, but one very interesting feature of it is that it's impossible on the current tropical zodiac! Think about modern tropical Cancer for example, it could never a 1st house sign with its need for seclusion. In Thema Mundi charts 12th house goes to Gemini. Gemini is ruled by Mercury = mind, communication. Actors and performers often have a prominent sidereal Gemini. A few months ago I posted a little study pertaining to Ardra nakshatra in mid-Gemini about people who have three planets in Ardra. Here is a few people from that study, all quotes are from AstroDatabank 3. Luisa Tetrazzini is of course my all-time favourite of these ;o): - Loni Anderson, and actor with Venus, Rahu and Moon in Ardra " .Anderson also did movies, including Born Yesterday, 1970, in which she discovered that she could play a bimbo well. " - Anne Murray, a pop and country singer with Mercury, Rahu and Saturn in Ardra, " .In concerts, she has tried to transform and update her image by sporting short, spiky blonde hair, wearing hems above the knees with sexy tights and telling risqué jokes. " - Luisa Tetrazzini, the greatest coloratura soprano of pre-WW I history with the Ascendant, Rahu, Sun and Jupiter in Ardra, " .Every six or seven weeks she would declare 'Ah no singa tonight.' The impresario, at his wit's end, would ask why and she would say, 'Ah wants a man.' When a man was found who would give his all for the cause of opera, after one look at the great diva, he often needed a bit of pecuniary incentive to conclude his part of the bargain. The result was a superb performance by the prima donna. Tetrazzini exemplified the life force as much as she did bel canto, and the sheer exuberance of her singing can still set a room on fire. " - Starlady, an astrologer with Ketu, Mercury and Mars in Ardra, " .known as a character who floats her ample size through a conference in a flowing dress and a huge, magnificent hat. When asked where she got her hat, she quips, 'I made it. Darling you can't buy trash like this.'. " - Milton Berle, a TV comedian with Rahu, Mercury and Venus in Ardra, " .Enormously funny, with great energy and versatility, he laid out rapid gags and broad clowning, and was named 'the television star of the year'. " - Empress Soraya Pahlavi, first wife of the Shah of Iran with the Sun, Venus and Mercury in Ardra, " .Stylish and cosmopolitan, [after the divorce] she joined the jet-set life style. " They lack severe self-discipline in the same way than severe self-discipline seems to be lacking in the 12th house. Shiv put here the link to Barbara Pijan Lama's site http://www.barbarap <http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/bAstrHom.htm> ijan.com/bpa/bAstrHom.htm and there you can find a wealth of information and a really interesting exploration into the meanings of the 12 houses. Pijan Lama relies on the natural zodiac though, she says that the 1st house is the house of Mars, the 2nd is the house of Venus etc. But I think I pass that by, and look at what else she has to say. What I've read so far contains many really interesting insights. For example the 2nd house is the house of family, Pijan Lama writes about it: " Saturation (death) of individuality, as the personal uniqueness in overwhelmed by the common traits within the family. Saturation (death) of independent action, and the weight of lineage values (Skandha) overdetermines the possibility of free choice. " So that's what the second house means: the family inheritance you get immidiatedly after you've born, you've born into certain family, and your early environment, the culture that you've born into dictates a big part of your life. Bijan Lama associates that with Taurus, but think about Leo and especially Magha nakshatra - ancestors! Family traditions! Dignity... I recommend especially the chapter of the Asc ruler in different houses http://www.barbarap <http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/1tanu_L1_in_12_domains.htm> ijan.com/bpa/Topics/1tanu_L1_in_12_domains.htm . ------------------------- Now here's the study about people with a lot of planets in the 12th house. I found 22 charts with five or six (of the nine Vedic planets) in the 12th Sripati house. 1. Brooke Smith. American writer, teacher, lecturer, conference speaker and professional astrologer, the President of ISAR's Los Angeles, CA chapter in 1982. (---) In 1969 he was working as a computer programmer as well as doing research into human potential. Saturn, Sun, Venus, Jupiter and Mercury in the 12th house. 2. Dana Haynes. American astrologer who began her study at 14 with her mom, who was an astrologer but more skilled in numerology. The whole family was psychic but Haynes insists on backing up her psychic abilities with astrological indicators. (---) A strong TV personality, she has appeared on many programs, as well as radio and in magazine articles, and has lectured to corporate conventions. Sun, Saturn, Mercury, Venus and Jupiter in the 12th house. 3. Pierre Teilhard De Chardin. French paleontologist and Jesuit priest known for scientific and genetic research and for philosophical works on the meaning of evolution and the future of mankind. A Christian mystic, he sought to reconcile the Christian message with modern science. Controversial, he has emerged as an important force in contemporary thought, but was forbidden by his religious superiors to publish any works aside from those on paleontology during his lifetime, which caused him great distress. Mercury, Saturn, Jupiter, Sun and Venus in the 12th house. 4. K.N. Rao Indian celebrated Hindu astrologer based in Delhi and author of several illuminating books about jyotish (Vedic), spiced with his ever pertinent and out-spoken comments. Ketu, Mercury, Sun, Moon and Venus in the 12th house. 5. Carson Daly. American actor who made his television debut with MTV in 1997. He is the host of " Total Request Live, " a daily show devoted to music and interviews, and has a large fan following. Saturn, Sun, Ketu, Venus and Mercury in the 12th house. 6. Felicien David. French ecclesiastic, a Roman Catholic priest and Jesuit Chapel master as a musician and composer. Mercury, Ketu, Sun, Venus and Jupiter in the 12th house. 7. Juergen Hoppman. German pro astrologer and Christian esoteric, an occultist and natural healing practitioner, a body therapist with massage. He is also a data collector and an author, the advocate of a psychological and esoteric oriented astrology. Mers, Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus in the 12th house. 8. Bertrand Tavernier. French writer, publicist and film director. Moon, Mercury, Sun, Venus, Saturn and Jupiter in the 12th house. 9. Isabelle Duchnesnay. Canadian pro ice dancer/skater. Mars, Ketu, Mercury, Venus and Moon in the 12th house. 10. Jon Peck: American journalist and noted family, the son of actor Gregory Peck and a reporter for KCOY TV station for six years. Rahu, Sun, Moon, Venus and Mercury in the 12th house. 11. James Whitmore: American actor on stage and film who is best known for his stage impersonations of famous people. Saturn, Jupiter, Sun, Moon and Rahu in the 12th house. 12. Claude Brasseur: French actor, the youngest member of an acting family famed in France since 1820. Mercury, Venus, Mars, Sun and Ketu in the 12th house. 13. Prince Constantijn Christof: Dutch royalty, the third son of Queen Beatrix and Prince-Consort Claus von Amsberg. Venus, Mercury, Moon, Jupiter and Sun in the 12th house. 14. Hondo Havlicek: American athlete who specialized in basketball and had a long career with the Boston Celtics from 1962-78. He has been elected to the Hall of Fame. Sun, Ketu, Jupiter, Moon and Saturn in the 12th house. 15. Ivano Piero Nava: Italian citizen who was in a car on the street in Argenta, Sicily when he witnessed the murder of Judge Livatino on 9/21/1990. He recognized the killer and reported the crime to the police. His testimony was so precise that it aided the identification, arrest and conviction of the killer. However, his life was completely upset. He had to change his name, his work and identity to escape a brutal revenge by the Mafia. He and his family went into the Witness Protection Program sponsored by the state, totally uprooting their lives and losing money, their house and job. Mars, Sun, Venus, Moon and Mercury in the 12th house. 16. Pierre Boileau: French author, famed for his creation, with his co-writer Thomas Narcejac, of what is termed the ''French suspense.'' Sun, Venus, Mars, Moon and Jupiter in the 12th house. 17. Reinhard Hauff: German actor, writer, director and producer whose main body of work was on early television. Saturn, Venus, Ketu, Mercury and Sun in the 12th house. 18. Joaquim Nabuco: Brazilian politician and diplomatic; died in Washington DC while on assignment 1/17/1910. Sun, Mercury, Jupiter, Rahu and Moon in the 12th house. 19. James MacDonald: Scottish botanist, professor of botany and author of " Introduction to Mycology " released in 1951 as well as other science papers. Sun, Rahu, Mars, Mercury and Venus in the 12th house. 20. Imca Marina: Dutch popular singer who writes for a gossip magazine, an advice column to those in despair. Saturn, Sun, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury in the 12th house. 21. Gordon Brown: the Prime Minister of Great Britain. Sun, Jupiter, Rahu, Mars and Venus in the 12th house. 22. Massimo Serato: Italian actor who fathered a son, Luca Magnani, with actress Anna Magnani. Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Sun and Venus in the 12th house. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2008 Report Share Posted May 24, 2008 Bettina wrote: It seems odd that the 12th is considered malefic while it has such a positive side...but then, fame isn't always all that positive. I think that the 12th has to do with sacrifice, and famous folks do indeed have to sacrifice a lot. Sari: Yes, you're right. Then again we're reminded that people of the past had very different values than we do. What we consider valuable and benefic (for example winning the American Idol contest) maybe they did not, or that kind of things were not considedered valuable in regard with spiritual growth or religiousness. What I'm thinking is that maybe we should be more careful when considering the ancient concepts of malefic and benefic, not to reinterpret those concepts according to our own values? The 12th house could be loss of your own identity, like with the Americal Idol example, when after winning the record company managers tell you how to dress, how to perform and what kind of music you will record. It't the same with politics: you have to polish your image, change your haircut (if you're a woman), you have experts consulting you for speaking and TV performances... some people call that " selling yourself " . Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 At 04:50 PM 5/23/08 +0300, Sari wrote: > >(...) The result might pertain to the 12th house as the house of collective >subconscious - often people think that it's something deep and spiritual, >but if you think about it a bit closer, what really fills our collective >subconscious? I'd say it's more the collective *conscious.* Anyhow, we're getting a picture of the universal in connection to the 12th house. This goes along with world travel and contact with many different kinds of people. >In America rugby players are probably a part of that collective image >gallery... This made me smile! American doesn't have rugby. I don't even know what rugby is, but I know that Prince Charles has been known to play rugby. > [The 12th] has colour, imagination, fantasy. Isn't that Pisces? Jupiter and Neptune? >But you cannot be hidden to gain prominence in the collective >unconsciousness of the people. No, you have to be visible, people have to >know you. Maybe that's why the 12th house is above the horizon. The planets >there *are* visible. This is why I'd connect the 12th to the conscious and visible rather than the sub-conscious. >I wouldn't connect the 12th house to Pisces, neither tropical nor sidereal; >of course I may change my mind later. I rather like to think about the Thema >Mundi chart, used by Hellenistic astrologers as a teaching device... I know about the Thema Mundi, but I don't think it applies to the horoscope today. The system of houses, at least for medical astrology, seems to correlate with parts of the body: Aries-head, Taurus, lower face and throat, Gemini-hands, shoulders, and arms, etc. So the third, for exampale, rules brothers who are supposed to be our helpers. The 3rd also has to do with trades and skills that require the use of the hands. But, of course, something else to research!! What we should do, Sari, when you have ADB 4 working with Vista, is attempt a few cooperative reserach studies of planets in houses. Stay a little narrow to begin: Say The Sun (only) within 7 degrees of a cusp. I would research the Indian Bhava cusps (equal), and you would research Sripati. Then we'd see if one system or the other gave more cohesive results in relation to biographies. There will be overlap, of course, but it would be interesting to see what turns up. Roght now we're trying to compare apples and oranges as you're working with totals ( " a lot of planets " ) in houses, and I'm working with specific planets with specific orbs. I'd say we have to start small (one or two planets) and then work up to more complex studies. Otherwise there are too many diverse cases to show a pattern. Of course in our appraoches we're seeing Pisces (you) and Virgo (me)! Best, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Dear Members As mentioned earlier, I am going to mention some 12th house people with a little info about them that might be relevant. Haven't found much time lately. Will post further installments at a later time. For now these are some charts: 1. F: 28th Nov, 1978, 8.35 am, Springfield Illinois, Sun, Mars, Merc in Scorp in 12th house. Native has studied in Europe, travelled to Canada to see a Buddhist monastery all by herself in 2 week car trip. Was active in Free Tibet movement in college. Has dated people from Middle east, Asia and currently a European. All her major dates (including your truly:)) have been involved in higher education. Wants to travel more and see and live in other parts of the world. 2. M:March 5, 1974, 5.00pm, India.78 E 02, 30 N19 Moon in 12th in Cancer, Native grew up in India. Later travelled to UK, found a girl there and has recently got married and plans to settle there. 3. F: Dec 7, 1970, 10.35 am, Germany, 8E 07, 51, N 35 Sun in 12th in Scorp. Born in Germany, now lives in another European country, Has many international friends (online) and has travelled to US to meet part of the family who lives here. More later, Shiv , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > At 04:50 PM 5/23/08 +0300, Sari wrote: > > > >(...) The result might pertain to the 12th house as the house of collective > >subconscious - often people think that it's something deep and spiritual, > >but if you think about it a bit closer, what really fills our collective > >subconscious? > > I'd say it's more the collective *conscious.* Anyhow, we're getting a > picture of the universal in connection to the 12th house. This goes along > with world travel and contact with many different kinds of people. > > >In America rugby players are probably a part of that collective image > >gallery... > > This made me smile! American doesn't have rugby. I don't even know what > rugby is, but I know that Prince Charles has been known to play rugby. > > > [The 12th] has colour, imagination, fantasy. > > Isn't that Pisces? Jupiter and Neptune? > > >But you cannot be hidden to gain prominence in the collective > >unconsciousness of the people. No, you have to be visible, people have to > >know you. Maybe that's why the 12th house is above the horizon. The planets > >there *are* visible. > > This is why I'd connect the 12th to the conscious and visible rather than > the sub-conscious. > > >I wouldn't connect the 12th house to Pisces, neither tropical nor sidereal; > >of course I may change my mind later. I rather like to think about the Thema > >Mundi chart, used by Hellenistic astrologers as a teaching device... > > I know about the Thema Mundi, but I don't think it applies to the horoscope > today. The system of houses, at least for medical astrology, seems to > correlate with parts of the body: Aries-head, Taurus, lower face and > throat, Gemini-hands, shoulders, and arms, etc. So the third, for exampale, > rules brothers who are supposed to be our helpers. The 3rd also has to do > with trades and skills that require the use of the hands. > > But, of course, something else to research!! > > What we should do, Sari, when you have ADB 4 working with Vista, is attempt > a few cooperative reserach studies of planets in houses. Stay a little > narrow to begin: Say The Sun (only) within 7 degrees of a cusp. I would > research the Indian Bhava cusps (equal), and you would research Sripati. > Then we'd see if one system or the other gave more cohesive results in > relation to biographies. There will be overlap, of course, but it would be > interesting to see what turns up. > > Roght now we're trying to compare apples and oranges as you're working with > totals ( " a lot of planets " ) in houses, and I'm working with specific > planets with specific orbs. I'd say we have to start small (one or two > planets) and then work up to more complex studies. Otherwise there are too > many diverse cases to show a pattern. Of course in our appraoches we're > seeing Pisces (you) and Virgo (me)! > > Best, > Therese > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Hi Shiv, Thanks for these cases! But how are you defining the 12th house? One of my daughters has 4th lord in the 12th (Moon is about 30 degrees behind the ascendant). She lived in India for 20 years--only returned to the U.S. once or twice in the early years for short periods to earn enough money to stay in India. Oh, and at the age of 42 she brought an Indian man back to the U.S. to marry. Pisces--the roving feet?? Therese At 10:13 PM 6/20/08 -0000, Shiv wrote: >Dear Members > >As mentioned earlier, I am going to mention some 12th house people >with a little info about them that might be relevant. Haven't found >much time lately. Will post further installments at a later time. For >now these are some charts: > >1. F: 28th Nov, 1978, 8.35 am, Springfield Illinois, > >Sun, Mars, Merc in Scorp in 12th house. > >Native has studied in Europe, travelled to Canada to see a Buddhist >monastery all by herself in 2 week car trip. Was active in Free Tibet >movement in college. Has dated people from Middle east, Asia and >currently a European. All her major dates (including your truly:)) >have been involved in higher education. Wants to travel more and see >and live in other parts of the world. > >2. M:March 5, 1974, 5.00pm, India.78 E 02, 30 N19 > >Moon in 12th in Cancer, Native grew up in India. Later travelled to >UK, found a girl there and has recently got married and plans to >settle there. > >3. F: Dec 7, 1970, 10.35 am, Germany, 8E 07, 51, N 35 > >Sun in 12th in Scorp. > >Born in Germany, now lives in another European country, Has many >international friends (online) and has travelled to US to meet part >of the family who lives here. > >More later, >Shiv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Shiv ... You can add me to your collection. I have Moon cnj Uranus in Taurus in 12th. Therefore, of course, Moon rules 2nd house of family. Tho not estranged from my parental family, I moved a full continent's width away from them at the age of 21. There was no particular good reason for it...just circumstantial, and it felt right to be far away...perhaps for my own psycho-spiritual development. I adored, and still adore, my still-living mom (I'm 63, she's 90), but fate has decreed that I only see her about once a year. So, in a way, I was in self imposed exile, and the 12th is supposed to have to do with exile, among other things. I've done some international travel (I live in the US and have been to India, England, Wales) but not anywhere near as much as I'd like. As I said a while back, I've had friends of all different nationalities and races. I think that has to do with the boundlessness of Neptune, the natural 12th ruler. ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Shiv Friday, June 20, 2008 3:13 PM Re: 12th house Dear Members As mentioned earlier, I am going to mention some 12th house people with a little info about them that might be relevant. Haven't found much time lately. Will post further installments at a later time. For now these are some charts: 1. F: 28th Nov, 1978, 8.35 am, Springfield Illinois, Sun, Mars, Merc in Scorp in 12th house. Native has studied in Europe, travelled to Canada to see a Buddhist monastery all by herself in 2 week car trip. Was active in Free Tibet movement in college. Has dated people from Middle east, Asia and currently a European. All her major dates (including your truly:)) have been involved in higher education. Wants to travel more and see and live in other parts of the world. 2. M:March 5, 1974, 5.00pm, India.78 E 02, 30 N19 Moon in 12th in Cancer, Native grew up in India. Later travelled to UK, found a girl there and has recently got married and plans to settle there. 3. F: Dec 7, 1970, 10.35 am, Germany, 8E 07, 51, N 35 Sun in 12th in Scorp. Born in Germany, now lives in another European country, Has many international friends (online) and has travelled to US to meet part of the family who lives here. More later, Shiv @ <%40> , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > At 04:50 PM 5/23/08 +0300, Sari wrote: > > > >(...) The result might pertain to the 12th house as the house of collective > >subconscious - often people think that it's something deep and spiritual, > >but if you think about it a bit closer, what really fills our collective > >subconscious? > > I'd say it's more the collective *conscious.* Anyhow, we're getting a > picture of the universal in connection to the 12th house. This goes along > with world travel and contact with many different kinds of people. > > >In America rugby players are probably a part of that collective image > >gallery... > > This made me smile! American doesn't have rugby. I don't even know what > rugby is, but I know that Prince Charles has been known to play rugby. > > > [The 12th] has colour, imagination, fantasy. > > Isn't that Pisces? Jupiter and Neptune? > > >But you cannot be hidden to gain prominence in the collective > >unconsciousness of the people. No, you have to be visible, people have to > >know you. Maybe that's why the 12th house is above the horizon. The planets > >there *are* visible. > > This is why I'd connect the 12th to the conscious and visible rather than > the sub-conscious. > > >I wouldn't connect the 12th house to Pisces, neither tropical nor sidereal; > >of course I may change my mind later. I rather like to think about the Thema > >Mundi chart, used by Hellenistic astrologers as a teaching device... > > I know about the Thema Mundi, but I don't think it applies to the horoscope > today. The system of houses, at least for medical astrology, seems to > correlate with parts of the body: Aries-head, Taurus, lower face and > throat, Gemini-hands, shoulders, and arms, etc. So the third, for exampale, > rules brothers who are supposed to be our helpers. The 3rd also has to do > with trades and skills that require the use of the hands. > > But, of course, something else to research!! > > What we should do, Sari, when you have ADB 4 working with Vista, is attempt > a few cooperative reserach studies of planets in houses. Stay a little > narrow to begin: Say The Sun (only) within 7 degrees of a cusp. I would > research the Indian Bhava cusps (equal), and you would research Sripati. > Then we'd see if one system or the other gave more cohesive results in > relation to biographies. There will be overlap, of course, but it would be > interesting to see what turns up. > > Roght now we're trying to compare apples and oranges as you're working with > totals ( " a lot of planets " ) in houses, and I'm working with specific > planets with specific orbs. I'd say we have to start small (one or two > planets) and then work up to more complex studies. Otherwise there are too > many diverse cases to show a pattern. Of course in our appraoches we're > seeing Pisces (you) and Virgo (me)! > > Best, > Therese > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2008 Report Share Posted June 22, 2008 Hi Therese I have used the default option in this free software called JHora which gives the traditional vedic houses.Sign=house, cusp in middle. But just today I did find it has other options as well like Sripati etc. The cusp in the middle stil confuses me a lot and I don't know the rationale behind that.So far these different systems confuse me. So I might play around and see if things change a bit.I believe Sati and Bettina had given their insights about various house systems, hopefully it will sink in sometime soon. Interesting knowing about your daughter. I am assuming she is still in India married to the Indian Guy? Yesterday I was mentioning to someone from the vedic way, that almost all my planets go one back in what's called the Bhava Chalita chart. I believe they change somewhat in Sripati too the same way. Like Saturn and ketu from ist to 12th, Mars from 11th to 10th, Jup from 8th to 7th, Venus from 6th to 5th, Sun from 5th to 4th...he said it might mean that I need to go abroad to make my life. as everything is in 12th from itself, using this same 12th house argument above. Interesting! Will search around for more charts and post them when I can. BTW happy Mars in Leo to everyone , hope our energy levels will be back up! Cheers Shiv , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > Hi Shiv, > > Thanks for these cases! But how are you defining the 12th house? One of my > daughters has 4th lord in the 12th (Moon is about 30 degrees behind the > ascendant). She lived in India for 20 years--only returned to the U.S. once > or twice in the early years for short periods to earn enough money to stay > in India. Oh, and at the age of 42 she brought an Indian man back to the > U.S. to marry. > > Pisces--the roving feet?? > > Therese > > At 10:13 PM 6/20/08 -0000, Shiv wrote: > >Dear Members > > > >As mentioned earlier, I am going to mention some 12th house people > >with a little info about them that might be relevant. Haven't found > >much time lately. Will post further installments at a later time. For > >now these are some charts: > > > >1. F: 28th Nov, 1978, 8.35 am, Springfield Illinois, > > > >Sun, Mars, Merc in Scorp in 12th house. > > > >Native has studied in Europe, travelled to Canada to see a Buddhist > >monastery all by herself in 2 week car trip. Was active in Free Tibet > >movement in college. Has dated people from Middle east, Asia and > >currently a European. All her major dates (including your truly:)) > >have been involved in higher education. Wants to travel more and see > >and live in other parts of the world. > > > >2. M:March 5, 1974, 5.00pm, India.78 E 02, 30 N19 > > > >Moon in 12th in Cancer, Native grew up in India. Later travelled to > >UK, found a girl there and has recently got married and plans to > >settle there. > > > >3. F: Dec 7, 1970, 10.35 am, Germany, 8E 07, 51, N 35 > > > >Sun in 12th in Scorp. > > > >Born in Germany, now lives in another European country, Has many > >international friends (online) and has travelled to US to meet part > >of the family who lives here. > > > >More later, > >Shiv > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 At 10:25 PM 6/21/08 -0000, Shiv wrote: >...The cusp in the middle stil confuses me a lot and I don't know the >rationale behind that. I think the rationale for this goes back to the equal house system where the same degree in every sign matches the ascendant degree. Then we're looking at aspects to the ascendant as having the most power in the chart. Then India must have carried over this idea to the Sripati system where the unequal cusps are the middle of houses. >Interesting knowing about your daughter. I am assuming she is still >in India married to the Indian Guy? No, they're living in California. They figure ten years of working in America, and they'll get plenty of social security to live easily in India. They want to return to India. But who knows where the world will be ten years from now? Or even if the world will still be here! If many of your planets change houses between systems, Shiv, then it's up to you to see which system best fits the facts of your life. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hello Rainysky, I add my replies to your questions in your message appended below. - rainysky_33 Friday, July 24, 2009 3:20 AM 12th House Dear Professor, In this chart the Ju(12th Lord) & Ke are in a close mutual aspect. What are the results of it? SETBACKS IN PROFESSIONAL MATTERS, MARITAL RELATIONSHIP AND IN FOREIGN LANDS. OBSTRUCTIONS IN STUDIES. I was trying to match this horoscope for marriage. In my understanding this is a severe affliction that too happening in 2nd house but because the lord of house Sa is strong & other planets are also strong, it should not have a major impact on martial life of native. IT CAN HAVE MAJOR IMPACT. Am I right in assuming that Mo & Sa will provide cover to this affliction? CAN PROVIDE BUT CONTINUED PROPITIATORY REMEDIES FOR JUPITER AND KETU ARE NECESSARY. WHENVER THE SUB PERIOD OF SATURN WILL OPERATE THE AFFLICTION OF JUPITER WILL COME INTO PLAY. Does the simple presence of two FM's in second house cause marital problems? SIMPLE PRESENT MAY NOT BUT EXACT AFFLICTION OF JUPITER BY KETU CAN CAUSE PROBLEMS. Kindly shed some light on this issue as I am slightly confused given the good strength & good placement of other significators of marriage except the 12th lord. Female 01 March 1986 05:40 AM , Agra Many thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 12th house represents Moksha, marital bliss, jail sentence, foreign travels and heavy expenditure. How does one distinguish which is the one that will fructify...if possible with examples. Thank you Prad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Dear pradeep, being moksha bahva,it's not bad and also being martial bhava where venus exalts and gives bed comforts in 12th bhava v have 4th for comforts also a moksha bhava and 12 th is 9th from there. martial bliss gets connected with 2nd and 7th.Planets like benifics to say jupiter,venus or any palnet in own house and exaltation gives positive results w/o sending to jail.ketu thretens peace and rahu give disrepute.when 3rd and 9th gets conncted with through lords aspcts like mars etc keeping away seperation and further 2nd from 11th earning in foreign currency could be elicited.lagna lord in 12th,moon in 12th and sun are issues to be be seen from stellar indications all these elements mentioned by you Vattem Krishnan Cyber Jyotish Services (For all counseling services) --- On Tue, 9/1/09, pradeep0890 <psd1955 wrote: pradeep0890 <psd1955 12th House Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 9:43 PM 12th house represents Moksha, marital bliss, jail sentence, foreign travels and heavy expenditure. How does one distinguish which is the one that will fructify...if possible with examples. Thank you Prad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 ________________________________ Vattem Krishnan <bursar_99 Wednesday, 2 September, 2009 9:51:34 AM Re: 12th House Dear pradeep, being moksha bahva,it's not bad and also being martial bhava where venus exalts and gives bed comforts in 12th bhava v have 4th for comforts also a moksha bhava and 12 th is 9th from there. martial bliss gets connected with 2nd and 7th.Planets like benifics to say jupiter,venus or any palnet in own house and exaltation gives positive results w/o sending to jail.ketu thretens peace and rahu give disrepute.when 3rd and 9th gets conncted with through lords aspcts like mars etc keeping away seperation and further 2nd from 11th earning in foreign currency could be elicited.lagna lord in 12th,moon in 12th and sun are issues to be be seen from stellar indications all these elements mentioned by you Vattem Krishnan Cyber Jyotish Services (For all counseling services) --- On Tue, 9/1/09, pradeep0890 <psd1955 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote: pradeep0890 <psd1955 (AT) gmail (DOT) com> 12th House Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 9:43 PM 12th house represents Moksha, marital bliss, jail sentence, foreign travels and heavy expenditure. How does one distinguish which is the one that will fructify...if possible with examples. Thank you Prad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 हरे राम कृष्ण Dear Prad, Namaskar. Moksha is for the soul, so see 12th from Atmakaraka... or more accurately see this in D9 (connection with Bhagavan). Karaka is Ketu. Marital bliss is seen from both 12th from Lagna and its Arudha also known as Upapada. Alot of work has been done on the latter. Karaka is Venus. Heavy expenditure means a depletion of the bank account, hence we need to see 12th from AL for this. Karaka is Saturn. Foreign travel is seen from the 12th from Lagna and Lagnesha and requires movement (movable signs) as well. Karaka is Rahu. Jail time or any type of Bandhana is seen from the 12th from Atmakaraka in Rasi. Karaka is again Rahu but this is a negative Rahu, whereas the positive side of Rahu breaks all boundaries. Yours sincerely, Visti Larsen ---------- Jyotish Guru (Vedic Astrologer) www: http://srigaruda.com @: visti pradeep0890 skrev: 12th house represents Moksha, marital bliss, jail sentence, foreign travels and heavy expenditure. How does one distinguish which is the one that will fructify...if possible with examples. Thank you Prad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 ||Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya. Om Namo Narayanaya|| Namaskar Vistiji, Thanks fo r such a beautiful explanation. In your book, you indicate that in general malefics in 12th from AL is not desireable/good. In you lecture on AL, you say that a connection between AL and the 12th from AL is important because it shows giving. And we cannot achieve higher purposes in life if we are unable to give. However, in articles by Sanjayji and Narasimhaji, there is a broad statement that malefics in the 12th from AL is a rajayoga (which to tell you the truth surprised me). Also, Sanjayji in his book on Narayana Dasa states that specifically transit Saturn in 12th from AL is a great benefic. For Charts where AL is Scorpio and lord Mars is a Yogakaraka (say Cancer Lagna) and located in 12th from AL in Libra, do we consider this as a rajayoga or as a combination where the person is always poor (because the bank balance is always depleted or the person gives everything away). As always, your insights are gratefully and deeply appreciated. Best regards, Somnath ||Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya. Om Namo Narayanaya|| On 9/3/09, Visti Larsen <visti wrote: > ??? ??? ????? > Dear Prad, Namaskar. > Moksha is for the soul, so see 12th from Atmakaraka... or more > accurately see this in D9 (connection with Bhagavan). Karaka is Ketu. > Marital bliss is seen from both 12th from Lagna and its Arudha also > known as Upapada. Alot of work has been done on the latter. Karaka is Venus. > Heavy expenditure means a depletion of the bank account, hence we need > to see 12th from AL for this. Karaka is Saturn. > Foreign travel is seen from the 12th from Lagna and Lagnesha and > requires movement (movable signs) as well. Karaka is Rahu. > Jail time or any type of Bandhana is seen from the 12th from Atmakaraka > in Rasi. Karaka is again Rahu but this is a negative Rahu, whereas the > positive side of Rahu breaks all boundaries. > Yours sincerely, Visti Larsen > ---------- > Jyotish Guru (Vedic Astrologer) > www: http://srigaruda.com > @: visti > > pradeep0890 skrev: >> >> >> 12th house represents Moksha, marital bliss, jail sentence, foreign >> travels and >> heavy expenditure. >> >> How does one distinguish which is the one that will fructify...if >> possible with examples. >> >> Thank you >> Prad >> >> > -- Sent from my mobile device Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 Thank you so much Manoj ji for being so kind to reply. Certainly your answer has helped me in better understanding of 12H matters. I was little confused because Anand Jon (famous Indian Fashion Designer In the USA)who has been convicted has sufferred a heavy 59 year jail sentence; heavy loss of income and high expenditure plus loss of fame,name and reputation; also sex related issues (pleasures of bed) and has also had foreign travels....all 12H matters. Hence my question. Thank you once again Regards Pradeep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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