Guest guest Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Hi Tanvir, You are very right! If one were to just go by the criteria of 'pin-pointing' an event on a specific date (What happened on 1-Jan-2000) or the date for a specified event (On which date my sister was born?) then the performance would fall in a drastic manner. For example, since you are interested in quizzes, if you look through this very interesting site: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dymock/index.html You will note that the performance statistics are more like 20% of posters being successful and not the same posters -- which means that the individual performance would be even lower than that! There was a project in Canada known as Hamilton Project conducted decades ago and showed poor results as well. Despite brave claims and bravado and half-baked anecdotes (I am sorry but there is no other way to describe those!), the fact of the matter is that when pressed to perform, like a madari for the crowd -- most astrologers would probably not perform too well. And I am talking about astrologers who only use astrology and do not have recourse to " performance-enhancing measures " (to borrow a term from competitive sports!), such as yogic or magical practices, etc which potentially change the level playing-field. So, is astrology BUNK and should we all close all the jyotish fora and lists and go hide in some cave till we emerge with a glowing halo around our forehead after having become Trikalagyas? :-) I fully agree with you that we should not waste time in justifying or even worrying about whether astrology is a science and keep bringing ancients as some do just because they have some exclusive documents or can quote scriptures while doing Halasan! That would be absurd! The PROBLEM, as I see it is that practitioners promise too much and give the impression that they can fix and remedy all karma without being taken to task or asked to provide evidence. There may be some insincere ones who will just dance around the issue and create tangential arguments when someone tries to pin them down (we see that often and even very recently!). We have also seen the devastating effects of that in this distraught father who lost his son and was/is expressing his soul-felt anguish recently here. As I understand, this gentleman posted here when the son had deteriorated to a very advanced extent. In a face-to-face situation it is possible to console a person, but in this kind of remote setting, even if the message is given gently that sometimes God or Goddess is the only resort -- the message is very difficult to be understood because there are all these other background music that pumps false hope into people particularly those who are experiencing a lot of very painful emotions and massive guilt and simply-put HELPLESSNESS. Some would feel at such instances that astrology is inutile, useless and we better burn the books and go fishing, instead (in the literal sense, not metaphorical!!). But that is where a sincere astrologer must not go NUMB, but rather analyze the situation very coldly. I do not wish to write about this superficially in a piece-meal manner on an internet forum, but perhaps astrologers must consider individually if giving 'off-the-rack' remedial suggestions (particularly the ones that cost someone time or money!) with every reading is useful or determining the chart to figure out which nativity would benefit from remedy or not and if 'yes', WHICH KIND? This will reduce the number of times astrology is made a scapegoat by sceptics and misguided querants. I sincerely doubt if Astrology on Internet can ever serve as an Emergency Care Hospital, therefore, all these, " Guruji! Urgent Attention Needed...! " ARE SIMPLY UNREALISTIC and we as a community must also take upon ourselves to educate the reading-requestors and inject a dose of reality and realistic-expectations in them! I generally have been doing that through private responses to such requests and with a hope and prayer that CLARITY of the Situation reaches them, in one form or another! I wish others joined in, too...! Rohiniranjan , " king_tanvir " <lord_rex wrote: >... > First one is - most discussions come as requests of readings, and basically I 'HATE' to read charts. That's the plain and simple truth. Now, why do I hate that? It again has some reasons, valid ones. First, today Jyotish world performs POORLY and we seriously lack in knowledge and concepts to have a good success rate for predictions. How many of us can answer a quiz right, or how many of us can predict the future at least with 70-80% accuracy? I guess, the number will be very few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Dear Shri Tanveer ji and others, For science to develop there is need to promote research.It is in science every body evinces interest as it pays back to the effort put in.where as jyotish,also has potential for research.But that research can not aimed and promoted through the public forums.It needs serious attentions as pointed out by Mr Tanveer //Science develops because there are continuous researches.// 2.As regards quizzes do certainly help in teasing the brains and a deviation from routine stuff of answering curios landing questions on employment and having children or no etc 3.Even if Astrologers out of their own awreness suggest for remedies for improvement of the lot,these remedies are never done seriously.It is just beating bush. 4.These forums certainly have been helping the jyotish indirectly in sharing knowledge and ventilating the idesPossibly these opinions may stimulare minds for knowing the facts and promote jyotish. 5.For serious minds to go into theoritical aspects and delve into jyotish,there are bodies existing where one has opportunity to invest his time and promote jyotish research.The research however is not whether saturn impedes or helps constructively to the growth. 6.Jyotish being a wisdom coming out of interaction of planets in the nature,how planets movements have impact on the life of the humans in particulars and others in mundane perspectives. 6.may be since the topic has come for discusion we can think of laying a limit on routine readings and come up with specifics.In fact all seniors,having experience and knowing the subjects can throw light.Recently an ideas was expressed to study charts of those who have attained existential heights and brought glory to humanity.Like Martin Luther King,Guatam Buddha and the likes of Dali lama. if some thing universally could be concluded out of their lives,it is good that we can that x having so and so planets can become a saint and be a role model for others. P.S:The quiz sponsored and replied as per wishes of Lilly has not yet been finalised.the answers ahve not seen the light if Iam not wrong! Even Shri tanveer ji's your reply to quiz must have been made directly to her. . Vattem Krishnan Cyber Jyotish Services(For all counseling services)Dr.B.V.Raman " Fools Obey Planets While  Wisemen Can Control Them " Planets are neutral Controllers of Mans Karma --- On Tue, 3/23/10, king_tanvir <lord_rex wrote: king_tanvir <lord_rex I DISAGREE -- Re: NOTE... 9/02 Tuesday, March 23, 2010, 2:49 PM  Tanvir only shows up when he is bored! LOL - well said RR Ji. I don't check posts that much and got this post when I searched for 'Tanveer'... I spell it Tanvir but some write it that way, though. There are few reasons for what I can't contribute regularly. First one is - most discussions come as requests of readings, and basically I 'HATE' to read charts. That's the plain and simple truth. Now, why do I hate that? It again has some reasons, valid ones. First, today Jyotish world performs POORLY and we seriously lack in knowledge and concepts to have a good success rate for predictions. How many of us can answer a quiz right, or how many of us can predict the future at least with 70-80% accuracy? I guess, the number will be very few. Jyotish, as it shapes today, can't be presented as a science for it's incomplete, and unshaped. Engineering, Math, Medicine, Physics etc. works all the time, so the proof of their validity is very clear. Jyotish is something else and different, still there should be at least 60-70% success rate, but sadly, as I find it out, is missing. So as a person who is not involved in Jyotish, I could say that studying Jyotish shows that there IS something in it, and it shows planetary positions etc. have relation to human life but for poor performance we can't use it a lot, or can't rely a lot on it. This is, because we need much more good and true research to have some good extracts and juices of it. But it's missing. Science develops because there are continuous researches. But Jyotishas are not well paid to take it as a full time profession, or anything. So noone can work, or study, or research full time, so noone can improve self knowledge, or even contribute to the Jyotish world. Thus with an incomplete knowledge, I hate to study charts, as I need a lot of research and true understandings, what I can't find in books etc. But can be learnt through own researches and lot of experiences only. Another reason for I hate to study charts is the amount of concentration and deep thinking it takes to come to a conclusion. Jyotish has no hard and fast rules that the formulae we apply and get result, so a lot of thinking is needed, and for that I need to free from other thoughts and involvements. As an example when I answered Lily's quiz, it took me a very serious thought of 30 mins after I calculated charts etc. and all those and only then I could come to a conclusion. Still, it was an easy one and I must say, I was confused about the PD so I gave two options otherwise I could hit it with only one answer. I even didn't study the TR for lacking in time and energy. Another reason for what I can't really discuss that people generally asks for reading as a fun / curiosity and they lack in seriousness. So I often find it unworthy to attain. YES, some are in serious problem and need help. And the only good help is remedies, but honestly, it takes a HUGE DEAL of discipline and hard work OR a huge deal of money to do a successful remedy, so the advices I give are not often carried out correctly, so all in vein. Remedy is very difficult BUT without a successful remedy studying chart is of no real use. Now... looking to myself, regularly doing mantras since 2004 it took me a lot of time to understand how to do them and how to use, yes I did so many things with remedies which are quite unbelievable and amazing, and continue to do them, YET some of the problems in my life are still untouched, but I am improving even now after 6 years... because such realization never ends. So from my own life I see how difficult it is to do remedies, would anyone try it that hard like me, after I suggest him / her something? May be then, it would worth reading a chart. We all know a lot about mantras, gemstones, details about their weight and all those, still how many of us could solve problems through them? The answer is really frustrating. Anyways, coming to being bored RR Ji is absolutely wrong because as you see it, I have exalted 8th lord [depression and boredom] in my 5th house [mind] and the natural karaka Saturn is also exalted. I am bored all the time and my ability to be bored and depressed shocks others around me! This is always true, even from when I was so little. But may be then I should be in JR all the while according to that LOL ~ By the way when I use to participate and watch JR fully, even then the forum was flexiable and lenient as it is today! It was very important for the growth and to take it where it is today. Thanks, Tanvir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Dear Shri Kulbir Ji and members, 1.Exam system,cheating by Gurus and students and purchase of degrees maladies that can not be blunted are actually different issues. That kind of corruption or cheating(what evr is appropriate) is a different issues which we should leave to the conscious of those who acquired and their later competencies and success in life. 2.Jyotish like any other science is also potential subject for people interested in taking up research.How far it can be viable.Some reputed universities get funding for research on jyotish.Even services of jyotish have been used for training potential people for choosing team for in the last olympics.A very senior person having high reputation in Astrology but belonging to judicial services has studied skills vis-a-vis their fortune to get medals in olympics. 3.In the forum some memebers find very drab and frustating to take up same topics with different names.Instead they feel quizzing becomes more interesting than day in and day out attend the queries (being made and answered become stereo types) Even we have seen members at the age of 16 yrs too v have been getting worried about future and pose questions out of curiosity. Also after 4th dat of the birth people ask whether my son has potential to become Astrologer etc/.Evidently there is lot of curiosity is seen and observed in the activities of the forum. A girl in 20s asks what type of husband I will get AND WILL HAVE happy married life? 4.All these questions might be sound but b4 commencing the life they want to have the curiosity fulfilled.This is what shri Tanveer ji has been mentioning about. 5.Research funding is an issue and whther this can be constituted through the introduction of professional approach by fee and invest more time in furthering the jyotish studies. 6.I agree with you in the perils of getting degrees by way of mass copying etc.The remedy for this lies beyond our scope in the forum as what ever we sum up and conslude here is of no value for the administrators of exam system. Of course,this has been realised and the root cause of corruption needs to be tackled by changing various things including present politiacal vinatage.Iam sure shri Baba Ramdev Ji has expressed openly to reform society and bring freshness and ideals. 7.In the forum however collective wisdom can contribute to the growth and development of jyotish and come out with models that can answer successfully possibilities of good monsoon or otherwise and find people to take leadership and identify etc would serve as a better cause than to get involved in routine and curious queries. 8.we have learned members but getting bogged down with routine issues instead they might look for space to promote and unravel jyotish research Vattem Krishnan Cyber Jyotish Services (For all counseling services) Dr.B.V.Raman " Fools Obey Planets While Wisemen Can Control Them " Planets are neutral Controllers of Mans Karma --- On Wed, 3/24/10, Kulbir Bains <lalkitabkb wrote: > Kulbir Bains <lalkitabkb > Re: I DISAGREE -- Re: NOTE... 9/02 > > Wednesday, March 24, 2010, 11:02 AM > Dear Tanvir ji, > Ethics and approach matter more than monetary > considerations. > We have many members who have degrees from various > registered institutions > teaching jyotish. > Can any one claim that the exams conducted by these > institutions involve no > cheating. > I would rather ask you to visit their examination centre > and see the modus > operandi of exams being conducted; better still, get > enrolled, sit for exams > and have first hand experience. > Regards > Kulbir Bains. > > On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:19 PM, king_tanvir <lord_rex > wrote: > > > > > > > Vattem Ji > > > > I agree to you. Sadly but true that, money is being > involved everywhere now > > days. Jyotish research needs some serious financial > sponsorship so that one > > can devote into itself in a full-time professional > manner. Scientific > > researches in early days were often sponsored by > govt., or when the > > scientists sold patients etc., I have even read that > someone [Watt or > > Franklin? Not sure] was almost penniless conducting > his researches... he > > used to save money hard and then continue research > again and eventually stop > > later. > > > > Today scientific researches are backed up by business > organizations and > > they invest in order to get a lot more return from it > when the research is > > successful and reaches its goal and the product is > launched. > > > > To take jyotish into that height of prestidge and > authenticness the > > readings should be charged minimum 250-300 USD so that > an astrologer can > > devote as good as 6-7 hrs in full time research and > can live decently by the > > reading fees. > > > > And no one would, or even SHOULD pay this much for a > reading today, because > > 'we' dont even know who is a genuine astrologer. For > that, certified coarses > > should be there like Chartered Accountancy [CA] or > Chartered Financial > > Professionals [CFA] to ensure that the standard is > maintained. Yes there ARE > > courses around which are prestigious but with due > respect, they just teach > > the theory in a bookish way from standard text, even I > could be a teacher > > that way. But prediction is a lot different as you > truly practicing > > astrologers can feel. > > > > By the way I answered Lilly's quiz in JR, may be you > missed it. I would > > request Lilly to post the answer because I don't think > anyone would try it > > anymore. > > > > Regards > > Tanvir > > > > <%40>, > > Vattem Krishnan <bursar_99 wrote: > > > > > > Dear Shri Tanveer ji and others, > > > For science to develop there is need to promote > research.It is in science > > every body evinces interest as it pays back to the > effort put in.where as > > jyotish,also has potential for research.But that > research can not aimed and > > promoted through the public forums.It needs serious > attentions as pointed > > out by Mr Tanveer > > > //Science develops because there are continuous > researches.// > > > 2.As regards quizzes do certainly help in teasing > the brains and a > > deviation from routine stuff of answering curios > landing questions on > > employment and having children or no etc > > > 3.Even if Astrologers out of their own awreness > suggest for remedies for > > improvement of the lot,these remedies are never done > seriously.It is just > > beating bush. > > > 4.These forums certainly have been helping the > jyotish indirectly in > > sharing knowledge and ventilating the idesPossibly > these opinions may > > stimulare minds for knowing the facts and promote > jyotish. > > > 5.For serious minds to go into theoritical > aspects and delve into > > jyotish,there are bodies existing where one has > opportunity to invest his > > time and promote jyotish research.The research however > is not whether saturn > > impedes or helps constructively to the growth. > > > 6.Jyotish being a wisdom coming out of > interaction of planets in the > > nature,how planets movements have impact on the life > of the humans in > > particulars and others in mundane perspectives. > > > 6.may be since the topic has come for discusion > we can think of laying a > > limit on routine readings and come up with > specifics.In fact all > > seniors,having experience and knowing the subjects can > throw light.Recently > > an ideas was expressed to study charts of those who > have attained > > existential heights and brought glory to humanity.Like > Martin Luther > > King,Guatam Buddha and the likes of Dali lama. > > > if some thing universally could be concluded out > of their lives,it is > > good that we can that x having so and so planets can > become a saint and be a > > role model for others. > > > P.S:The quiz sponsored and replied as per wishes > of Lilly has not yet > > been finalised.the answers ahve not seen the light if > Iam not wrong! > > > Even Shri tanveer ji's your reply to quiz must > have been made directly to > > her. . > > > > > > Vattem Krishnan Cyber Jyotish Services(For all > counseling > > services)Dr.B.V.Raman " Fools Obey Planets While  > Wisemen Can Control > > Them " Planets are neutral Controllers of Mans Karma > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/23/10, king_tanvir > <lord_rex wrote: > > > > > > king_tanvir <lord_rex > > > I DISAGREE -- Re: NOTE... 9/02 > > > <%40> > > > Tuesday, March 23, 2010, 2:49 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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