Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Kannan, I have my own doubts about the accuracy of your birth chart primarily for the reason you have given even the seconds of Time. Is it a rectified chart ? If so who rectified it ? Now regarding our hypothesis of the evil power of 11L , for a moment ,just forget about that. Even a strictly traditional approach , could have foretold some problems for you in the major period of Mars and sub period of Mercury. The Dasha lord Mars forms shashtashtama 6/8 axis with the sub period Mercury and the sub period Mercury is the Arch enemy of Dashanath . Mercury is also the sign diispositor of two natural malefics viz Saturn & Mercury.Further, Mercury is in the lunar asterism of Mars in 6H of Dispute, litigation , disease etc. Mercury has lordship of 8H of sexual union; and has the second ranking planet in terms of speed in the planetary cabinet and is closely connected with pre-mature ejaculation and the likes. I am not overlooking the aspect of Rx Jup in debilitation to your Mercury. With so much blemish attached to Mercury, if its sub -period , especially in the MD of Mars was totally comfortable in every respect , then we should completely discard the entire predictive system in vogue and start from the scratch to discover a new method of analyis that works. Madhu N Nair Note----All the points discussed above is done by avoiding/overlooking the point of evil lordship , attached to 11L, as brought by me, in my earlier message.If this is your chart, and if your family life is smooth and free from bickerings , I am totally helpless to make any further comments.kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote: Dear Sreenadhji, Madhuji and Panditji,Thanks for your reply on my post. I am giving below the birthdata.DOB : 25th September 1973TOB : 11:31:58POB :Latitude: 9o18'N Longitude: 76o48'E I think Jupiters aspect on Mercury and his association with 10th Lord Sun is also important.Regards,Kannan , Panditji <navagraha wrote:>> Namaste,> > What your birth data ?> > I am not sure about occupants of 11 H. Infact I think Parashar says the 11th> lord is malefic but I do not beleive he attributes any maleficence to> occupants of 11th house. It will depend on their lordships.> > ...> > > On 6/1/06, kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote:> >> > Dear Madhuji,> >> > I have a different experience so far. Being a Scorpio Lagna person,> > Mercury never in his antardasas troubled me. I got married during> > Mercury's Antardasa in LL s Dasa, passed Graduation with good marks> > during Mercury Antra in Moon's Dasa.> >> > You wrote about:> > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants> > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants> > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants> > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants> >> > In my chart I have got 11th, 12th and 6th Lords in their own houses> > (Mercury in Virgo, Venus in Libra and Mars in Aries)> >> > Also I have many good friends who act like my elder brother/sister> > and helped me in various ways in my life. As I am the eldest son of> > my parents, I always looked for an elder brother/sister during my> > childhood and with God's grace, friends at different levels acted> > like a protecting shield for me. Is there anything related to 11th> > house on this.> >> > Regards,> > Kannan> >> >> > , VYASAJI> > <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > >> > > Vinita,> > > For the sake of convenience, I may write FM, MMP etc. Actually I> > don't consider any planet to be fully benefic or fully malefic.> > Yes .I consider and rate Jupiter as MMP for Taurus Ascendant ,then> > my rationale is totally different from that of Mr VK Chaudary's (SA> > Fame).Prior to that, let me tell you onething, my approach is quite> > different from others. On my end, I rely on my experience as well> > as the experience of others, that I get as feed back rather than> > parroting sanskrit slokas after slokas to substantiate a point. (By> > this statement, I am not attempting for reductio ad absurdum of the> > teachings of the Seers). I consider the text books (or Rule books)> > bequeathed to us by ancient masters as mere "Guides" and not> > anything more than that.I am also convinced more than in Sanskrit ,> > a privilage of few scholars coming from the upper strata of the> > society , it is in Tamil, the language of common man, treasure> > house of Jyotish knowledge is kept (Time has> > > devoured almost all works in Tamil , with the owners of> > parachment/palmyra writings, blissfully ignorant of treasure house> > of knowledge in their possession , which they refuses to part even> > if it is moth-eaten , with a sizeable population getting converted> > at a fast pace ; and for whom it has become mandatory to show> > allegiance/, loyalty to new faith , by denouncing , their own> > erstwhile culture and tradition .> > > Now I rank the malignancy of a planet in the following manner.> > Priority wise> > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants> > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants> > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants> > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants --Please do remember the 6H is> > simultaneously a upachayastana (Improving house) as well as a Dustana> > (Unfavourable House). 6th is also one of "Arthatrikona"(Trigon, 2-6-> > 10) . That might be one of the reasons , the sub period of a> > planet, well placed in 6H ,often leads to improvement in monetary> > affairs.> > >> > > Years back, I too was a great admirer of 11 H & 11Lord. I> > know ,it is the house of gains without pains, sincere companions,> > fulfilment of all desires, elder co-born etc.Bychance, I had an> > opportunity to read a write-up of a great Western astrologer by> > name RC Smith , in which he was saying from his experience that 11L> > or 11H occupants are evil.Since RC Smith study was based on Western> > Astrology that depends on Tropical Zodiac, where there is no Dasha> > system,I never got an opportunity to test his findings.In 1997,> > prior to his death, the outstanding Scholar in Jyotish, Sri R> > Santhanam, based on a thread of BPHS, wrote an article in TOA,> > captioned "Best and the Worst of 11House . Santhanam, in one of his> > letter asked me to test this aphorism in as many cases as possible> > that passes through my hand.From then onwards , I am observing the> > interesting role played by 11L and 11H occupants.In my studies I> > note though the intensity of this aphorism vary according to> > different> > > Ascendant , in the case if Scorpio Ascendant , this finding,> > works like a Gospel Truth. Even if Mercury is well placed in an> > angle / trine, for Scorpio born , invariably it will bring untold> > sufferings to the native in its Dasha or sub period. I am yet to> > come across a chart ,with Scorpio rising, the Dasha or Sub period of> > Mercury has gone without registering some unpleasant event in the> > life of the native.> > > Both R C Smith and R Santhanam found 11L & 11H occupants giving> > disease, debts, litigations, quarells etc, the reason is 11th is 6th> > counted from 6H of disease, debts, sorrows, quarell . Don't forget> > 11H is also the house of recovery from disease. .The point is,> > along with some tangible gains ,the 11L & 11H occupants, invariably> > bring sorrow, debts, litigation , quarell etc, the exact event> > depends on the individual nativity.> > > The rest in next instalment> > > Madhu N Nair> > >> > > VYASAJI <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > > Vinitha,> > > For the 1 & 2 nd query I will answer in this mail whereas the 3rd> > one requires a little bit description and for that I will post a> > seperate message.> > > (1)Ofcourse, the nature of the sign counts, but still more> > importance is the lordship of Mars for Taurus Ascending. Let us> > remember that MT sign of Mars falls in 12H of loss. The> > element"Loss"(In relations) is more precipitated , when Mars> > occupies Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant.I am yet to form a final> > opinion in this matter, but I have repeatedly seen in my studies ,> > Mars in Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant, leading to estrangement .> > > (2) Need not necessarily.What we see in actual experience is ,> > when one runs the sub period of Saturn (For Taurus Ascendant) one> > may get promotion (10th Lordship)in job with transfer(9th> > lordship) .Parents death coinciding with job securing period. ( !0> > is 2nd from 9 & hence a maraka for father and 7 from 4th , hence a> > maraka for Mother) Sale & purchase of vehicles/ properties etc ,> > simultaneously (9 for purchase , 10 for sale) , overseas journey> > for employment/training etc the list illustrative. Ofcourse it goes> > without saying Saturn need to be well placed from the Ascendant to> > reap beneficial results.> > >> > > Madhu N Nair> > >> > > vinita kumar <shankar_mamta@> wrote:> > > Dear Vyasaji and friends,> > >> > > Namaskar!> > >> > > Actually i have a whole lot of questions on Taurus Lagna but at> > the> > > moment i will confine myself to just the following:> > >> > > 1. Do u think that just because of the basic nature of the Scorpio> > > sign in 7th relationships would suffer (even if Mars is not there)?> > >> > > 2. Do u think that because badhak Saturn rules the 9th and 10> > houses> > > there is a struggle involved there as well?> > >> > > 3. Do u think Jupiter is the most malefic planet for Taurus Lagna> > > being lord of 2nd and 11th?> > >> > > 4. Do u think that Venus even though it is Lagnesh is not that> > great> > > for the Lagna being ruler of 6th?> > >> > > 5. Do u think this Lagna has a special affinity to Mercury ruled> > > Lagnas....going by Vyasa relationships?> > >> > > I'll stop here.> > >> > > Will be extremely grateful for your responses.> > >> > > Regards,> > >> > > Vinita> > >> > > , VYASAJI> > > <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Sreenadh & Friends,> > > > While match making (Compatibility) is done by Keralite> > > Astrologers, they use to outrightly reject the concept of Kuja or> > > Chowa Dosha, if Mars occupies 7th Rasi Scorpio, saying it is> > Mar's> > > own sign , hence there is no blemish. However, in several charts> > it> > > is repeatedly seen, Mars in 7th sign Scorpio leading to seperation> > > (Legal or otherwise) at some stage of life.> > > > Madhu N Nair> > > >> > > > Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > Dear All,> > > > Shall we think about Tarus Lagna? What are the things you know> > > about> > > > this Lagna? How would be that person?> > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Dear Madhuji, Thanks for the post. I would first like to humbly state that I am a learner and my purpose of posting my experience and giving birthdata was only for learning the principles of astrology. If in any way my post offended you, I apologise. I never wanted to prove anything or object your views by saying my experience. Now coming to the points. 1. Yes, my birthdata is rectified (by a South Indian Jyothisha Guru) 2. My recorded birth time is 11:29 (even I dont doubt this as my grandfather was very particular on noting this) 3. By God's grace I had not experienced any significant problem during Mars-Mercury. Rather Mars-Venus was a tough time, during this period my beloved grandfather died (a great loss to me). 4. You said " If this is your chart, and if your family life is smooth and free from bickerings , I am totally helpless to make any further comments " Please dont be so hard on me. By God's grace my family life is smooth. I am confident that Lord Narayana and Devi Lakshmi protects me from troubles and I am devoted to them. Regards, Kannan , VYASAJI <vyasatvm wrote: > > Kannan, > I have my own doubts about the accuracy of your birth chart primarily for the reason you have given even the seconds of Time. Is it a rectified chart ? If so who rectified it ? > Now regarding our hypothesis of the evil power of 11L , for a moment ,just forget about that. > Even a strictly traditional approach , could have foretold some problems for you in the major period of Mars and sub period of Mercury. The Dasha lord Mars forms shashtashtama 6/8 axis with the sub period Mercury and the sub period Mercury is the Arch enemy of Dashanath . Mercury is also the sign diispositor of two natural malefics viz Saturn & Mercury.Further, Mercury is in the lunar asterism of Mars in 6H of Dispute, litigation , disease etc. Mercury has lordship of 8H of sexual union; and has the second ranking planet in terms of speed in the planetary cabinet and is closely connected with pre-mature ejaculation and the likes. I am not overlooking the aspect of Rx Jup in debilitation to your Mercury. With so much blemish attached to Mercury, if its sub -period , especially in the MD of Mars was totally comfortable in every respect , then we should completely discard the entire predictive system in vogue and start from the scratch to discover a new method of > analyis that works. > Madhu N Nair > Note----All the points discussed above is done by avoiding/overlooking the point of evil lordship , attached to 11L, as brought by me, in my earlier message.If this is your chart, and if your family life is smooth and free from bickerings , I am totally helpless to make any further comments. > > kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote: > Dear Sreenadhji, Madhuji and Panditji, > > Thanks for your reply on my post. I am giving below the birthdata. > > DOB : 25th September 1973 > TOB : 11:31:58 > POB :Latitude: 9o18'N Longitude: 76o48'E > > I think Jupiters aspect on Mercury and his association with 10th > Lord Sun is also important. > > Regards, > Kannan > > > , Panditji > <navagraha@> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > What your birth data ? > > > > I am not sure about occupants of 11 H. Infact I think Parashar > says the 11th > > lord is malefic but I do not beleive he attributes any maleficence > to > > occupants of 11th house. It will depend on their lordships. > > > > ... > > > > > > On 6/1/06, kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Madhuji, > > > > > > I have a different experience so far. Being a Scorpio Lagna > person, > > > Mercury never in his antardasas troubled me. I got married during > > > Mercury's Antardasa in LL s Dasa, passed Graduation with good > marks > > > during Mercury Antra in Moon's Dasa. > > > > > > You wrote about: > > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants > > > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants > > > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants > > > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants > > > > > > In my chart I have got 11th, 12th and 6th Lords in their own > houses > > > (Mercury in Virgo, Venus in Libra and Mars in Aries) > > > > > > Also I have many good friends who act like my elder > brother/sister > > > and helped me in various ways in my life. As I am the eldest son > of > > > my parents, I always looked for an elder brother/sister during my > > > childhood and with God's grace, friends at different levels acted > > > like a protecting shield for me. Is there anything related to > 11th > > > house on this. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Kannan > > > > > > > > > , VYASAJI > > > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Vinita, > > > > For the sake of convenience, I may write FM, MMP etc. > Actually I > > > don't consider any planet to be fully benefic or fully malefic. > > > Yes .I consider and rate Jupiter as MMP for Taurus > Ascendant ,then > > > my rationale is totally different from that of Mr VK Chaudary's > (SA > > > Fame).Prior to that, let me tell you onething, my approach is > quite > > > different from others. On my end, I rely on my experience as > well > > > as the experience of others, that I get as feed back rather than > > > parroting sanskrit slokas after slokas to substantiate a point. > (By > > > this statement, I am not attempting for reductio ad absurdum of > the > > > teachings of the Seers). I consider the text books (or Rule > books) > > > bequeathed to us by ancient masters as mere " Guides " and not > > > anything more than that.I am also convinced more than in > Sanskrit , > > > a privilage of few scholars coming from the upper strata of the > > > society , it is in Tamil, the language of common man, treasure > > > house of Jyotish knowledge is kept (Time has > > > > devoured almost all works in Tamil , with the owners of > > > parachment/palmyra writings, blissfully ignorant of treasure > house > > > of knowledge in their possession , which they refuses to part > even > > > if it is moth-eaten , with a sizeable population getting > converted > > > at a fast pace ; and for whom it has become mandatory to show > > > allegiance/, loyalty to new faith , by denouncing , their own > > > erstwhile culture and tradition . > > > > Now I rank the malignancy of a planet in the following > manner. > > > Priority wise > > > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants > > > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants > > > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants > > > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants --Please do remember the 6H is > > > simultaneously a upachayastana (Improving house) as well as a > Dustana > > > (Unfavourable House). 6th is also one of " Arthatrikona " (Trigon, > 2-6- > > > 10) . That might be one of the reasons , the sub period of a > > > planet, well placed in 6H ,often leads to improvement in > monetary > > > affairs. > > > > > > > > Years back, I too was a great admirer of 11 H & 11Lord. I > > > know ,it is the house of gains without pains, sincere companions, > > > fulfilment of all desires, elder co-born etc.Bychance, I had an > > > opportunity to read a write-up of a great Western astrologer > by > > > name RC Smith , in which he was saying from his experience that > 11L > > > or 11H occupants are evil.Since RC Smith study was based on > Western > > > Astrology that depends on Tropical Zodiac, where there is no > Dasha > > > system,I never got an opportunity to test his findings.In 1997, > > > prior to his death, the outstanding Scholar in Jyotish, Sri R > > > Santhanam, based on a thread of BPHS, wrote an article in TOA, > > > captioned " Best and the Worst of 11House . Santhanam, in one of > his > > > letter asked me to test this aphorism in as many cases as > possible > > > that passes through my hand.From then onwards , I am observing > the > > > interesting role played by 11L and 11H occupants.In my studies I > > > note though the intensity of this aphorism vary according to > > > different > > > > Ascendant , in the case if Scorpio Ascendant , this finding, > > > works like a Gospel Truth. Even if Mercury is well placed in an > > > angle / trine, for Scorpio born , invariably it will bring untold > > > sufferings to the native in its Dasha or sub period. I am yet to > > > come across a chart ,with Scorpio rising, the Dasha or Sub > period of > > > Mercury has gone without registering some unpleasant event in the > > > life of the native. > > > > Both R C Smith and R Santhanam found 11L & 11H occupants > giving > > > disease, debts, litigations, quarells etc, the reason is 11th is > 6th > > > counted from 6H of disease, debts, sorrows, quarell . Don't > forget > > > 11H is also the house of recovery from disease. .The point is, > > > along with some tangible gains ,the 11L & 11H occupants, > invariably > > > bring sorrow, debts, litigation , quarell etc, the exact event > > > depends on the individual nativity. > > > > The rest in next instalment > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > VYASAJI <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > Vinitha, > > > > For the 1 & 2 nd query I will answer in this mail whereas the > 3rd > > > one requires a little bit description and for that I will post a > > > seperate message. > > > > (1)Ofcourse, the nature of the sign counts, but still more > > > importance is the lordship of Mars for Taurus Ascending. Let us > > > remember that MT sign of Mars falls in 12H of loss. The > > > element " Loss " (In relations) is more precipitated , when Mars > > > occupies Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant.I am yet to form a final > > > opinion in this matter, but I have repeatedly seen in my > studies , > > > Mars in Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant, leading to estrangement . > > > > (2) Need not necessarily.What we see in actual experience > is , > > > when one runs the sub period of Saturn (For Taurus Ascendant) one > > > may get promotion (10th Lordship)in job with transfer(9th > > > lordship) .Parents death coinciding with job securing period. > ( !0 > > > is 2nd from 9 & hence a maraka for father and 7 from 4th , hence > a > > > maraka for Mother) Sale & purchase of vehicles/ properties etc , > > > simultaneously (9 for purchase , 10 for sale) , overseas journey > > > for employment/training etc the list illustrative. Ofcourse it > goes > > > without saying Saturn need to be well placed from the Ascendant > to > > > reap beneficial results. > > > > > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > vinita kumar <shankar_mamta@> wrote: > > > > Dear Vyasaji and friends, > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > Actually i have a whole lot of questions on Taurus Lagna but at > > > the > > > > moment i will confine myself to just the following: > > > > > > > > 1. Do u think that just because of the basic nature of the > Scorpio > > > > sign in 7th relationships would suffer (even if Mars is not > there)? > > > > > > > > 2. Do u think that because badhak Saturn rules the 9th and 10 > > > houses > > > > there is a struggle involved there as well? > > > > > > > > 3. Do u think Jupiter is the most malefic planet for Taurus > Lagna > > > > being lord of 2nd and 11th? > > > > > > > > 4. Do u think that Venus even though it is Lagnesh is not that > > > great > > > > for the Lagna being ruler of 6th? > > > > > > > > 5. Do u think this Lagna has a special affinity to Mercury > ruled > > > > Lagnas....going by Vyasa relationships? > > > > > > > > I'll stop here. > > > > > > > > Will be extremely grateful for your responses. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Vinita > > > > > > > > , VYASAJI > > > > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh & Friends, > > > > > While match making (Compatibility) is done by Keralite > > > > Astrologers, they use to outrightly reject the concept of Kuja > or > > > > Chowa Dosha, if Mars occupies 7th Rasi Scorpio, saying it is > > > Mar's > > > > own sign , hence there is no blemish. However, in several > charts > > > it > > > > is repeatedly seen, Mars in 7th sign Scorpio leading to > seperation > > > > (Legal or otherwise) at some stage of life. > > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > Shall we think about Tarus Lagna? What are the things you > know > > > > about > > > > > this Lagna? How would be that person? > > > > > Love, > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Kannan, I fail to understand , what prompted you to believe I got offended. No Not at all. Let me tell you without any ambuiguity that I am also a student in Jyotish, but the difference is I will be a student through out my life time because each horoscope is unique in itself. When, I wrote I doubt the authenticity of birth data, I had a strong case for such an inference. Pls read carefully. I already told it is easily understood the reasons of Mercury giving marriage in its sub period. But what that baffles me , your statement that Mercury sub period has not caused any discomfort to you in any. (The prv msg) Now you take your chart to any Astrologer in kerala , even a tyro will immediately point problems in married life. I will cite reasons I find significant * Your 7H of spouse is fully spoiled since it suffers from a papakarthari yoga * The 7L of spouse is in 12 H ,a Dustana( in its own sign !) * The Dasha in currency is Kodanda Rahu in 2H of Family with its dispositor in Fall and retrograde. By way of interest to you , let me cite a very interesting case from my gloss that has semblence with your chart.A decade back one of my friend in UAE was about to get married. His wife had a similar horoscope with Scorpio rising with almost all planets arrayed like in your char except, Sn, Mn, Ve, & Me. The Dasha running was of Kodanda Rahu. After seeing the chart I asked my friend not to proceed with the proposal. But as destiny wants it , the marriage was solemenised.The girl was stuying for DC and was an activist of students union with known affiliation to Sangaparivar. On an occassion , ofcouse based on some planetary positon, I told her she will give up her current political leaning and may even change faith. She jumped into a fit of fury. It so happened , my friend died in Middle-East in an accident causing severe financial hardships to his family. Years later I came to know that friend's wife had , a one time strong votary of Hindutva had changed faith. By writing this much I am not suggesting that you are going to change faith in your Kodanda Rahu's dasha. The Point is Kodanta Rahu with its Sign dispositor in Fall & retrograde in 2H of Family often leads to seperation in its dasha. Best Wishes Madhu N Nair kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote: Dear Madhuji,Thanks for the post.I would first like to humbly state that I am a learner and my purpose of posting my experience and giving birthdata was only for learning the principles of astrology. If in any way my post offended you, I apologise. I never wanted to prove anything or object your views by saying my experience.Now coming to the points.1. Yes, my birthdata is rectified (by a South Indian Jyothisha Guru)2. My recorded birth time is 11:29 (even I dont doubt this as my grandfather was very particular on noting this)3. By God's grace I had not experienced any significant problem during Mars-Mercury. Rather Mars-Venus was a tough time, during this period my beloved grandfather died (a great loss to me).4. You said"If this is your chart, and if your family life is smooth and free from bickerings , I am totally helpless to make any further comments"Please dont be so hard on me. By God's grace my family life is smooth. I am confident that Lord Narayana and Devi Lakshmi protects me from troubles and I am devoted to them.Regards,Kannan , VYASAJI <vyasatvm wrote:>> Kannan,> I have my own doubts about the accuracy of your birth chart primarily for the reason you have given even the seconds of Time. Is it a rectified chart ? If so who rectified it ?> Now regarding our hypothesis of the evil power of 11L , for a moment ,just forget about that. > Even a strictly traditional approach , could have foretold some problems for you in the major period of Mars and sub period of Mercury. The Dasha lord Mars forms shashtashtama 6/8 axis with the sub period Mercury and the sub period Mercury is the Arch enemy of Dashanath . Mercury is also the sign diispositor of two natural malefics viz Saturn & Mercury.Further, Mercury is in the lunar asterism of Mars in 6H of Dispute, litigation , disease etc. Mercury has lordship of 8H of sexual union; and has the second ranking planet in terms of speed in the planetary cabinet and is closely connected with pre-mature ejaculation and the likes. I am not overlooking the aspect of Rx Jup in debilitation to your Mercury. With so much blemish attached to Mercury, if its sub -period , especially in the MD of Mars was totally comfortable in every respect , then we should completely discard the entire predictive system in vogue and start from the scratch to discover a new method of> analyis that works. > Madhu N Nair> Note----All the points discussed above is done by avoiding/overlooking the point of evil lordship , attached to 11L, as brought by me, in my earlier message.If this is your chart, and if your family life is smooth and free from bickerings , I am totally helpless to make any further comments.> > kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote:> Dear Sreenadhji, Madhuji and Panditji,> > Thanks for your reply on my post. I am giving below the birthdata.> > DOB : 25th September 1973> TOB : 11:31:58> POB :Latitude: 9o18'N Longitude: 76o48'E > > I think Jupiters aspect on Mercury and his association with 10th > Lord Sun is also important.> > Regards,> Kannan> > > , Panditji > <navagraha@> wrote:> >> > Namaste,> > > > What your birth data ?> > > > I am not sure about occupants of 11 H. Infact I think Parashar > says the 11th> > lord is malefic but I do not beleive he attributes any maleficence > to> > occupants of 11th house. It will depend on their lordships.> > > > ...> > > > > > On 6/1/06, kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Madhuji,> > >> > > I have a different experience so far. Being a Scorpio Lagna > person,> > > Mercury never in his antardasas troubled me. I got married during> > > Mercury's Antardasa in LL s Dasa, passed Graduation with good > marks> > > during Mercury Antra in Moon's Dasa.> > >> > > You wrote about:> > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants> > > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants> > > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants> > > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants> > >> > > In my chart I have got 11th, 12th and 6th Lords in their own > houses> > > (Mercury in Virgo, Venus in Libra and Mars in Aries)> > >> > > Also I have many good friends who act like my elder > brother/sister> > > and helped me in various ways in my life. As I am the eldest son > of> > > my parents, I always looked for an elder brother/sister during my> > > childhood and with God's grace, friends at different levels acted> > > like a protecting shield for me. Is there anything related to > 11th> > > house on this.> > >> > > Regards,> > > Kannan> > >> > >> > > , VYASAJI> > > <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Vinita,> > > > For the sake of convenience, I may write FM, MMP etc. > Actually I> > > don't consider any planet to be fully benefic or fully malefic.> > > Yes .I consider and rate Jupiter as MMP for Taurus > Ascendant ,then> > > my rationale is totally different from that of Mr VK Chaudary's > (SA> > > Fame).Prior to that, let me tell you onething, my approach is > quite> > > different from others. On my end, I rely on my experience as > well> > > as the experience of others, that I get as feed back rather than> > > parroting sanskrit slokas after slokas to substantiate a point. > (By> > > this statement, I am not attempting for reductio ad absurdum of > the> > > teachings of the Seers). I consider the text books (or Rule > books)> > > bequeathed to us by ancient masters as mere "Guides" and not> > > anything more than that.I am also convinced more than in > Sanskrit ,> > > a privilage of few scholars coming from the upper strata of the> > > society , it is in Tamil, the language of common man, treasure> > > house of Jyotish knowledge is kept (Time has> > > > devoured almost all works in Tamil , with the owners of> > > parachment/palmyra writings, blissfully ignorant of treasure > house> > > of knowledge in their possession , which they refuses to part > even> > > if it is moth-eaten , with a sizeable population getting > converted> > > at a fast pace ; and for whom it has become mandatory to show> > > allegiance/, loyalty to new faith , by denouncing , their own> > > erstwhile culture and tradition .> > > > Now I rank the malignancy of a planet in the following > manner.> > > Priority wise> > > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants> > > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants> > > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants> > > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants --Please do remember the 6H is> > > simultaneously a upachayastana (Improving house) as well as a > Dustana> > > (Unfavourable House). 6th is also one of "Arthatrikona"(Trigon, > 2-6-> > > 10) . That might be one of the reasons , the sub period of a> > > planet, well placed in 6H ,often leads to improvement in > monetary> > > affairs.> > > >> > > > Years back, I too was a great admirer of 11 H & 11Lord. I> > > know ,it is the house of gains without pains, sincere companions,> > > fulfilment of all desires, elder co-born etc.Bychance, I had an> > > opportunity to read a write-up of a great Western astrologer > by> > > name RC Smith , in which he was saying from his experience that > 11L> > > or 11H occupants are evil.Since RC Smith study was based on > Western> > > Astrology that depends on Tropical Zodiac, where there is no > Dasha> > > system,I never got an opportunity to test his findings.In 1997,> > > prior to his death, the outstanding Scholar in Jyotish, Sri R> > > Santhanam, based on a thread of BPHS, wrote an article in TOA,> > > captioned "Best and the Worst of 11House . Santhanam, in one of > his> > > letter asked me to test this aphorism in as many cases as > possible> > > that passes through my hand.From then onwards , I am observing > the> > > interesting role played by 11L and 11H occupants.In my studies I> > > note though the intensity of this aphorism vary according to> > > different> > > > Ascendant , in the case if Scorpio Ascendant , this finding,> > > works like a Gospel Truth. Even if Mercury is well placed in an> > > angle / trine, for Scorpio born , invariably it will bring untold> > > sufferings to the native in its Dasha or sub period. I am yet to> > > come across a chart ,with Scorpio rising, the Dasha or Sub > period of> > > Mercury has gone without registering some unpleasant event in the> > > life of the native.> > > > Both R C Smith and R Santhanam found 11L & 11H occupants > giving> > > disease, debts, litigations, quarells etc, the reason is 11th is > 6th> > > counted from 6H of disease, debts, sorrows, quarell . Don't > forget> > > 11H is also the house of recovery from disease. .The point is,> > > along with some tangible gains ,the 11L & 11H occupants, > invariably> > > bring sorrow, debts, litigation , quarell etc, the exact event> > > depends on the individual nativity.> > > > The rest in next instalment> > > > Madhu N Nair> > > >> > > > VYASAJI <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > > > Vinitha,> > > > For the 1 & 2 nd query I will answer in this mail whereas the > 3rd> > > one requires a little bit description and for that I will post a> > > seperate message.> > > > (1)Ofcourse, the nature of the sign counts, but still more> > > importance is the lordship of Mars for Taurus Ascending. Let us> > > remember that MT sign of Mars falls in 12H of loss. The> > > element"Loss"(In relations) is more precipitated , when Mars> > > occupies Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant.I am yet to form a final> > > opinion in this matter, but I have repeatedly seen in my > studies ,> > > Mars in Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant, leading to estrangement .> > > > (2) Need not necessarily.What we see in actual experience > is ,> > > when one runs the sub period of Saturn (For Taurus Ascendant) one> > > may get promotion (10th Lordship)in job with transfer(9th> > > lordship) .Parents death coinciding with job securing period. > ( !0> > > is 2nd from 9 & hence a maraka for father and 7 from 4th , hence > a> > > maraka for Mother) Sale & purchase of vehicles/ properties etc ,> > > simultaneously (9 for purchase , 10 for sale) , overseas journey> > > for employment/training etc the list illustrative. Ofcourse it > goes> > > without saying Saturn need to be well placed from the Ascendant > to> > > reap beneficial results.> > > >> > > > Madhu N Nair> > > >> > > > vinita kumar <shankar_mamta@> wrote:> > > > Dear Vyasaji and friends,> > > >> > > > Namaskar!> > > >> > > > Actually i have a whole lot of questions on Taurus Lagna but at> > > the> > > > moment i will confine myself to just the following:> > > >> > > > 1. Do u think that just because of the basic nature of the > Scorpio> > > > sign in 7th relationships would suffer (even if Mars is not > there)?> > > >> > > > 2. Do u think that because badhak Saturn rules the 9th and 10> > > houses> > > > there is a struggle involved there as well?> > > >> > > > 3. Do u think Jupiter is the most malefic planet for Taurus > Lagna> > > > being lord of 2nd and 11th?> > > >> > > > 4. Do u think that Venus even though it is Lagnesh is not that> > > great> > > > for the Lagna being ruler of 6th?> > > >> > > > 5. Do u think this Lagna has a special affinity to Mercury > ruled> > > > Lagnas....going by Vyasa relationships?> > > >> > > > I'll stop here.> > > >> > > > Will be extremely grateful for your responses.> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > > Vinita> > > >> > > > , VYASAJI> > > > <vyasatvm@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Sreenadh & Friends,> > > > > While match making (Compatibility) is done by Keralite> > > > Astrologers, they use to outrightly reject the concept of Kuja > or> > > > Chowa Dosha, if Mars occupies 7th Rasi Scorpio, saying it is> > > Mar's> > > > own sign , hence there is no blemish. However, in several > charts> > > it> > > > is repeatedly seen, Mars in 7th sign Scorpio leading to > seperation> > > > (Legal or otherwise) at some stage of life.> > > > > Madhu N Nair> > > > >> > > > > Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > Dear All,> > > > > Shall we think about Tarus Lagna? What are the things you > know> > > > about> > > > > this Lagna? How would be that person?> > > > > Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Dear Madhuji, Now we have come to 7th house and 2nd house from 11th house & Mercury. The story you provided is frightening. I think I have to be more devoted and surrendered to my Lord. I too know Rahu Dasa is not too good and yes, it started with a separation, we were living at different places for almost 1 year due to my kid's illness. Now I have some questions. 1. Do you think Jupiter as debiliated. Till now I believe that Jupiter Retrograde in Capricon acts as Exalted. Also in Navamsa Jupiter is in Meena, his own sign! How can he give results of debiliation? 2. I have heard of Kodanda Rahu giving good results, as I believe his sign dispositor Jupiter is strong. 3. Do you think Venus 7th Lord powerless, when she is in MT in 20 Degrees? Also Venus in 12th house is not considered bad (as I know). 4. What do you think about Jupiters aspect on 7th House. 5. Kindly suggest some remedies to avoid anything bad during rahu dasa. Regards, Kannan , VYASAJI <vyasatvm wrote: > > Kannan, > I fail to understand , what prompted you to believe I got offended. No Not at all. Let me tell you without any ambuiguity that I am also a student in Jyotish, but the difference is I will be a student through out my life time because each horoscope is unique in itself. > When, I wrote I doubt the authenticity of birth data, I had a strong case for such an inference. Pls read carefully. I already told it is easily understood the reasons of Mercury giving marriage in its sub period. But what that baffles me , your statement that Mercury sub period has not caused any discomfort to you in any. (The prv msg) > > Now you take your chart to any Astrologer in kerala , even a tyro will immediately point problems in married life. > I will cite reasons I find significant > * Your 7H of spouse is fully spoiled since it suffers from a papakarthari yoga > * The 7L of spouse is in 12 H ,a Dustana( in its own sign !) > * The Dasha in currency is Kodanda Rahu in 2H of Family with its dispositor in Fall and retrograde. By way of interest to you , let me cite a very interesting case from my gloss that has semblence with your chart.A decade back one of my friend in UAE was about to get married. His wife had a similar horoscope with Scorpio rising with almost all planets arrayed like in your char except, Sn, Mn, Ve, & Me. The Dasha running was of Kodanda Rahu. After seeing the chart I asked my friend not to proceed with the proposal. But as destiny wants it , the marriage was solemenised.The girl was stuying for DC and was an activist of students union with known affiliation to Sangaparivar. > On an occassion , ofcouse based on some planetary positon, I told her she will give up her current political leaning and may even change faith. She jumped into a fit of fury. It so happened , my friend died in Middle-East in an accident causing severe financial hardships to his family. Years later I came to know that friend's wife had , a one time strong votary of Hindutva had changed faith. By writing this much I am not suggesting that you are going to change faith in your Kodanda Rahu's dasha. > The Point is Kodanta Rahu with its Sign dispositor in Fall & retrograde in 2H of Family often leads to seperation in its dasha. > Best Wishes > Madhu N Nair > > kankan_73 <kankan_73 wrote: > Dear Madhuji, > > Thanks for the post. > I would first like to humbly state that I am a learner and my > purpose of posting my experience and giving birthdata was only for > learning the principles of astrology. If in any way my post offended > you, I apologise. I never wanted to prove anything or object your > views by saying my experience. > > Now coming to the points. > 1. Yes, my birthdata is rectified (by a South Indian Jyothisha Guru) > 2. My recorded birth time is 11:29 (even I dont doubt this as my > grandfather was very particular on noting this) > 3. By God's grace I had not experienced any significant problem > during Mars-Mercury. Rather Mars-Venus was a tough time, during this > period my beloved grandfather died (a great loss to me). > > 4. You said > " If this is your chart, and if your family life is smooth and free > from bickerings , I am totally helpless to make any further > comments " > > Please dont be so hard on me. By God's grace my family life is > smooth. I am confident that Lord Narayana and Devi Lakshmi protects > me from troubles and I am devoted to them. > > Regards, > Kannan > > , VYASAJI > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > Kannan, > > I have my own doubts about the accuracy of your birth chart > primarily for the reason you have given even the seconds of Time. Is > it a rectified chart ? If so who rectified it ? > > Now regarding our hypothesis of the evil power of 11L , for a > moment ,just forget about that. > > Even a strictly traditional approach , could have foretold > some problems for you in the major period of Mars and sub period of > Mercury. The Dasha lord Mars forms shashtashtama 6/8 axis with the > sub period Mercury and the sub period Mercury is the Arch enemy of > Dashanath . Mercury is also the sign diispositor of two natural > malefics viz Saturn & Mercury.Further, Mercury is in the lunar > asterism of Mars in 6H of Dispute, litigation , disease etc. Mercury > has lordship of 8H of sexual union; and has the second ranking > planet in terms of speed in the planetary cabinet and is closely > connected with pre-mature ejaculation and the likes. I am not > overlooking the aspect of Rx Jup in debilitation to your Mercury. > With so much blemish attached to Mercury, if its sub -period , > especially in the MD of Mars was totally comfortable in every > respect , then we should completely discard the entire predictive > system in vogue and start from the scratch to discover a new method > of > > analyis that works. > > Madhu N Nair > > Note----All the points discussed above is done by > avoiding/overlooking the point of evil lordship , attached to 11L, > as brought by me, in my earlier message.If this is your chart, and > if your family life is smooth and free from bickerings , I am > totally helpless to make any further comments. > > > > kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote: > > Dear Sreenadhji, Madhuji and Panditji, > > > > Thanks for your reply on my post. I am giving below the birthdata. > > > > DOB : 25th September 1973 > > TOB : 11:31:58 > > POB :Latitude: 9o18'N Longitude: 76o48'E > > > > I think Jupiters aspect on Mercury and his association with 10th > > Lord Sun is also important. > > > > Regards, > > Kannan > > > > > > , Panditji > > <navagraha@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > What your birth data ? > > > > > > I am not sure about occupants of 11 H. Infact I think Parashar > > says the 11th > > > lord is malefic but I do not beleive he attributes any > maleficence > > to > > > occupants of 11th house. It will depend on their lordships. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > On 6/1/06, kankan_73 <kankan_73@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Madhuji, > > > > > > > > I have a different experience so far. Being a Scorpio Lagna > > person, > > > > Mercury never in his antardasas troubled me. I got married > during > > > > Mercury's Antardasa in LL s Dasa, passed Graduation with good > > marks > > > > during Mercury Antra in Moon's Dasa. > > > > > > > > You wrote about: > > > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants > > > > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants > > > > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants > > > > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants > > > > > > > > In my chart I have got 11th, 12th and 6th Lords in their own > > houses > > > > (Mercury in Virgo, Venus in Libra and Mars in Aries) > > > > > > > > Also I have many good friends who act like my elder > > brother/sister > > > > and helped me in various ways in my life. As I am the eldest > son > > of > > > > my parents, I always looked for an elder brother/sister during > my > > > > childhood and with God's grace, friends at different levels > acted > > > > like a protecting shield for me. Is there anything related to > > 11th > > > > house on this. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Kannan > > > > > > > > > > > > , VYASAJI > > > > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Vinita, > > > > > For the sake of convenience, I may write FM, MMP etc. > > Actually I > > > > don't consider any planet to be fully benefic or fully > malefic. > > > > Yes .I consider and rate Jupiter as MMP for Taurus > > Ascendant ,then > > > > my rationale is totally different from that of Mr VK > Chaudary's > > (SA > > > > Fame).Prior to that, let me tell you onething, my approach is > > quite > > > > different from others. On my end, I rely on my experience as > > well > > > > as the experience of others, that I get as feed back rather > than > > > > parroting sanskrit slokas after slokas to substantiate a > point. > > (By > > > > this statement, I am not attempting for reductio ad absurdum > of > > the > > > > teachings of the Seers). I consider the text books (or Rule > > books) > > > > bequeathed to us by ancient masters as mere " Guides " and not > > > > anything more than that.I am also convinced more than in > > Sanskrit , > > > > a privilage of few scholars coming from the upper strata of > the > > > > society , it is in Tamil, the language of common man, treasure > > > > house of Jyotish knowledge is kept (Time has > > > > > devoured almost all works in Tamil , with the owners of > > > > parachment/palmyra writings, blissfully ignorant of treasure > > house > > > > of knowledge in their possession , which they refuses to part > > even > > > > if it is moth-eaten , with a sizeable population getting > > converted > > > > at a fast pace ; and for whom it has become mandatory to show > > > > allegiance/, loyalty to new faith , by denouncing , their own > > > > erstwhile culture and tradition . > > > > > Now I rank the malignancy of a planet in the following > > manner. > > > > Priority wise > > > > > -----The 11 L & 11H occupants > > > > > -----The 8L & 8H occupants > > > > > ------The 12L & 12H occupants > > > > > -----The 6L & 6H occupants --Please do remember the 6H is > > > > simultaneously a upachayastana (Improving house) as well as a > > Dustana > > > > (Unfavourable House). 6th is also one > of " Arthatrikona " (Trigon, > > 2-6- > > > > 10) . That might be one of the reasons , the sub period of a > > > > planet, well placed in 6H ,often leads to improvement in > > monetary > > > > affairs. > > > > > > > > > > Years back, I too was a great admirer of 11 H & 11Lord. I > > > > know ,it is the house of gains without pains, sincere > companions, > > > > fulfilment of all desires, elder co-born etc.Bychance, I had an > > > > opportunity to read a write-up of a great Western > astrologer > > by > > > > name RC Smith , in which he was saying from his experience > that > > 11L > > > > or 11H occupants are evil.Since RC Smith study was based on > > Western > > > > Astrology that depends on Tropical Zodiac, where there is no > > Dasha > > > > system,I never got an opportunity to test his findings.In 1997, > > > > prior to his death, the outstanding Scholar in Jyotish, Sri R > > > > Santhanam, based on a thread of BPHS, wrote an article in TOA, > > > > captioned " Best and the Worst of 11House . Santhanam, in one > of > > his > > > > letter asked me to test this aphorism in as many cases as > > possible > > > > that passes through my hand.From then onwards , I am observing > > the > > > > interesting role played by 11L and 11H occupants.In my studies > I > > > > note though the intensity of this aphorism vary according to > > > > different > > > > > Ascendant , in the case if Scorpio Ascendant , this finding, > > > > works like a Gospel Truth. Even if Mercury is well placed in an > > > > angle / trine, for Scorpio born , invariably it will bring > untold > > > > sufferings to the native in its Dasha or sub period. I am yet > to > > > > come across a chart ,with Scorpio rising, the Dasha or Sub > > period of > > > > Mercury has gone without registering some unpleasant event in > the > > > > life of the native. > > > > > Both R C Smith and R Santhanam found 11L & 11H occupants > > giving > > > > disease, debts, litigations, quarells etc, the reason is 11th > is > > 6th > > > > counted from 6H of disease, debts, sorrows, quarell . Don't > > forget > > > > 11H is also the house of recovery from disease. .The point is, > > > > along with some tangible gains ,the 11L & 11H occupants, > > invariably > > > > bring sorrow, debts, litigation , quarell etc, the exact event > > > > depends on the individual nativity. > > > > > The rest in next instalment > > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > > > VYASAJI <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > > Vinitha, > > > > > For the 1 & 2 nd query I will answer in this mail whereas > the > > 3rd > > > > one requires a little bit description and for that I will > post a > > > > seperate message. > > > > > (1)Ofcourse, the nature of the sign counts, but still more > > > > importance is the lordship of Mars for Taurus Ascending. Let us > > > > remember that MT sign of Mars falls in 12H of loss. The > > > > element " Loss " (In relations) is more precipitated , when Mars > > > > occupies Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant.I am yet to form a final > > > > opinion in this matter, but I have repeatedly seen in my > > studies , > > > > Mars in Scorpio for Taurus Ascendant, leading to > estrangement . > > > > > (2) Need not necessarily.What we see in actual experience > > is , > > > > when one runs the sub period of Saturn (For Taurus Ascendant) > one > > > > may get promotion (10th Lordship)in job with transfer(9th > > > > lordship) .Parents death coinciding with job securing > period. > > ( !0 > > > > is 2nd from 9 & hence a maraka for father and 7 from 4th , > hence > > a > > > > maraka for Mother) Sale & purchase of vehicles/ properties > etc , > > > > simultaneously (9 for purchase , 10 for sale) , overseas > journey > > > > for employment/training etc the list illustrative. Ofcourse it > > goes > > > > without saying Saturn need to be well placed from the > Ascendant > > to > > > > reap beneficial results. > > > > > > > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > > > vinita kumar <shankar_mamta@> wrote: > > > > > Dear Vyasaji and friends, > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > > > Actually i have a whole lot of questions on Taurus Lagna but > at > > > > the > > > > > moment i will confine myself to just the following: > > > > > > > > > > 1. Do u think that just because of the basic nature of the > > Scorpio > > > > > sign in 7th relationships would suffer (even if Mars is not > > there)? > > > > > > > > > > 2. Do u think that because badhak Saturn rules the 9th and 10 > > > > houses > > > > > there is a struggle involved there as well? > > > > > > > > > > 3. Do u think Jupiter is the most malefic planet for Taurus > > Lagna > > > > > being lord of 2nd and 11th? > > > > > > > > > > 4. Do u think that Venus even though it is Lagnesh is not > that > > > > great > > > > > for the Lagna being ruler of 6th? > > > > > > > > > > 5. Do u think this Lagna has a special affinity to Mercury > > ruled > > > > > Lagnas....going by Vyasa relationships? > > > > > > > > > > I'll stop here. > > > > > > > > > > Will be extremely grateful for your responses. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Vinita > > > > > > > > > > , VYASAJI > > > > > <vyasatvm@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh & Friends, > > > > > > While match making (Compatibility) is done by Keralite > > > > > Astrologers, they use to outrightly reject the concept of > Kuja > > or > > > > > Chowa Dosha, if Mars occupies 7th Rasi Scorpio, saying it is > > > > Mar's > > > > > own sign , hence there is no blemish. However, in several > > charts > > > > it > > > > > is repeatedly seen, Mars in 7th sign Scorpio leading to > > seperation > > > > > (Legal or otherwise) at some stage of life. > > > > > > Madhu N Nair > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > Shall we think about Tarus Lagna? What are the things you > > know > > > > > about > > > > > > this Lagna? How would be that person? > > > > > > Love, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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