Ayanamsa debate

[Guest guest]

Sree nadh ji,

 

My feeling is that when many basics of jyotish have come down to us from mystic origins....like the dasa periods for each graha and so on.

 

I really wonder sometimes what great geniuses they must have been to work out charts without all the facilities we have today like accurate clocks and lat/long of a place.

 

How did they cast charts then .... what ayanamsa they used then?

 

Their intuition must have been really fantastic to say the least.

 

Today everyone is uncertain about the ayanamsa. This inspite of the many intellectual giants amongst us today. So I thought it is a futile exercise to speculate on the ayanamsa mathematically.

 

The great Rishis were intuitive or psychic. Obviously then such problems as relating to ayanamsa could perhaps be solved only by such living greats in our society!

 

May be we could explain it all later on ... just like we do today regarding many of our customs and traditions whose meanings were lost with the passage of time.

 

It was some loud thinking on my part.

 

Thank you,

 

Regards,

 

Pradeep

 

-

sree nadh

Saturday, June 03, 2006 4:21 PM

Re: Ayanamsa debate

 

Dear Pradeep ji,

Just one question.

In which way these psychics can help us in the study of astrology?

 

We are trying to learn astrology and not psychic methods.

Of course we should respect their abilities, but objective study of the same is almost impossible. There are many branches of astrology like "Nadi system" etc itself that works like a pure psychic system. If we start a discussion group in Delhi or the like, we can invite such people, so that we could learn what ever we could get from them. But for now, we are even unaware what they can teach us, or what astrology related info they can provide us with.

 

If you are mentioning the name of Psychics for the selection of Ayanamsa, then -

* Psychics are also human beings and the value that is ascribed to there opinions

will vanish once they die.

* Only Mata metical/logical/experimental proof can hold a concept against turbulent

wind of time

So we should better go for the second choice.

 

Love,

Sreenadh

Pradeep <psd1955 wrote:

 

Dear members,

 

May be we should seek the help of psychics like the renowned Sri Yogi Karve ji of Mumbai who is able to give the correct birth times of individuals as also the exact planetary positions at birth. His daughter Pinky Karve is also a gifted psychic.

 

K N Raoji has referred to them several times in his write-ups on astro matters.

 

May be there are other psychics in India who are languishing in oblivion.

 

If anyone knows such gifted beings we should take immediate steps in seeking their knowledge.

 

Regards,Pradeep

 

 

-

 

astrologerashutosh

Saturday, June 03, 2006 12:52 PM

Re: Re: before Lahiri which one? 2/6 p2

Dear Rohini Ji, I truly understand and accept what you said. But, A change in practiced ayanamsa can influence so many factors. like the dashas, the transits, the basic planetary positions and also the numerous concepts of astrology which one has developed and discovered after practical experiences in reading horoscopes. In planetary calculations where even true or mean rahu calculations can make a lot of differences in the personality analysis and predictions of the native, a change in ayanamsa cannot be done so randomly. It is easier for those who are still in basic learning process, but for a person like me who studies daily and hourly transits, it is not. It is really like a marriage for me. I am not a rigid orthodox astrologer, but any new ayanamsa should prove to be logical and better than the already practised one. I am not married to astrology, but I live it. It is a way of life for me and my only guide and teacher. Regards, Ashutosh - crystal pages Saturday, 03 June, 2006 12:33 Re: before Lahiri which one? 2/6 p2 Dear Ashutoshji, I must be honest! For me it is a lifelong marriage with jyotish! Ayanamsha is a mutual agreement and not a lifelong contract that is a make or break in *my* marriage! I am just being very honest and candid! I hope you can understand and accept that Warmest regards, Rohiniranjan , "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear Rohini Ji, > > Very wise words. I too believe in a sincere marriage. Once the partner-search and match-makings are over, one should be devoted to the chosen partner (ayanamsa) only. Thanks!! > > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > - > crystal pages > > Saturday, 03 June, 2006 12:07 > Re: before Lahiri which one? 2/6 p2 > > > Dear Ashutosh ji > > I have stopped arguing about ayanamsha around 1975, which according > to Mr. Tarun Chopra (who expressedly is obviously confused and still > wondering about my gender!) was when I was 3 years old! > > That is unreal, of course but I would not waste the time of an astute > pragmatist and a real practical astrologer like you with that :-P > > I have nothing against any ayanamsha really -- let me just say this: > Being with an ayanamsha is like a sincere marriage and even when > there are divorces for reasons other than hate, or loss of love, one > feels differently about marriages and divorces as opposed to those > who part in anger! I belong to the former group described!! > > RR > > > > , "astrologerashutosh" > <astrologerashutosh@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini Ji, > > > > The earth's tilt on its axis, the Ayana, is > the real factor behind the ayanamsa. Ayanamsa is the difference > between sayan (with ayan) and nirayan (without ayana) planetary > calculations. The Lahiri ayanamsa exactly fits the > astronomical 'earth's tilt'. No wonder it was approved by the > government of India. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ashutosh > > > > > > > > > > - > > crystal pages > > > > Saturday, 03 June, 2006 04:41 > > Re: before Lahiri which one? 2/6 p2 > > > > > > Dear Satish ji, > > > > Though Sri Nirmal Chandra Lahiri is noted for his ayanamsha > (which he > > never called his own but simply pinned it to the star Chitra or > > Spica -- hence properly named as Chitra navamsha. Similar > > misnomenclature also exists for the so called Yukteshwar > ayanamsha. > > Even more so, since unlike Lahiri, Yukteshwar Giri ji Maharaj did > not > > calculate or establish that ayanamsha but merely stated that it > was > > according to astronomical books -- possibly prevailing panchangs > > followed by him). All this has been written with more interesting > > similarities between it and Raman ayanamsha in earlier posts, etc. > > > > Anyway, much more important than the ayanamsha he gave us, > Lahiri's > > primary contribution to the field of jyotish related astronomy is > the > > bringing out of accurate epehmeris/panchangs which were based on > > mathematical calculations with modern terms and corrections given > by > > astrophysics. With Lahiri's ephemeris starting in 30s or > thereabouts > > the wild variabilities that characterized all but a few rare > > panchaangs became a thing of past and more importantly, others > were > > forced to follow suit and fine-tune their 'act'. Publishing just > > anything and calling it a panchanng or panjika would not do, any > > more! > > > > That, to me is the major contribution of Lahiri. > > > > Kumarji gave a beautiful analogy, or different ayanamshas being > like > > vision-correcting glasses. Mine would not work for you, yours > would > > not work for me! My own that worked ten years do not work for me > > anymore <LOL> > > > > RR > > > > > > , "R Satish" > <rsatish1942@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > Mentioning about Lahiri's Ayanamsa,remimded about my > experience > > > with a hard core Vedic scholar,from a place called Kotipalli,on > the > > > banks of Godavari in East Godavari Dt. > > > > > > This Brahmin,80 +yrs runs a Vedic Patshala which trains > Hindu > > > Priests for performimg various poojas etcand is residential > school. > > > > > > When the subject of Ayanamsa came up,I had mentioned to him > about > > > the pabnchang difference between a Kakinada panchang and > Lahiri's > > > ayanamsa. He emphatically stated that Lahiri succumbed to the > then > > > govt's pressure manipulating the ephemeris.He stated there is a > > > difference of" one pada",between the local panchang.Hence a > > > differneceof nearly 6-8 month's is not uncommon.I had gone to > him > > > to discuss my son's horoscope,about 3/4 yrs ago.Even in my > case, > > > there is a diffence of exactly one year in the balance of > Chandra > > > dasa,I have not been to reconcile this difference. > > > > > > As stated by you stalwarts,finally it boils down to one's > > experience. > > > Fnaticism does not serve much purpose to the cause of astrology. > > > > > > This is one of my several experiemces with the' stalwarts' . > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Satish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Prashant Kumar G B > > > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji, > > > > > > > > I have also shared some of these inputs directly and > indirectly > > > with many in person and in the groups like these the most > > > remarkable one being of ICAS founder Secy sri Late K. > Ashwattappa, > > > who had contemopt for Raman like all others here as it was > > > fashionable to do so by ciritising any pouplar person, and so > for > > > his ayanamsa MOST OF HIS critics do not even know the > difference > > > between Lahiri and Raman's in terms of deg- min- sec and > MAJORITY > > > HAVE NEVER TESTED IT either, just prejueice, jealous of him. > > > > > > > > But my association with him for over 15 yrs he felt he must > try > > > it and did test them randomly and fouind in many cases Rahu > Dasa > > or > > > Ketu Dasa at the end giving Good results than their earlier > part > > > once he shifted the ayanamsa found it is Guru, or Sukra > periods > > that > > > gave the right results as Subha phala need not wait til then > end > > of > > > the dasa to deliver. eve Ketu or Rahu if well place can give > at > > > start not in tail end. THIS I HAVE THE BENIFIT OF MNEXT GURU S > > > SUBBANNA, AWHO GOT IT FROM HIS GURU they are Mysore Maharaja's > > > asthana Jyotishis for generations. > > > > > > > > SO ANYONE WITH AN OPEN MID IF THEY TYR IT CAN GET GOOD > RESULTS > > it > > > is open to them no vested interests, except that we want the > > subject > > > to have its good tols an dusers benifit if they try, it is > > possible > > > they can stillg et good results in this or anyother left to > ones > > > intution, instincts, knowledge, in RAMAN' success we know we > ar > > > einthe right track so lets move along, and he hsued the > > traditional > > > ones which even westerners beofe his birth have acknowledged > as > > the > > > genius of INDIAN TRADITION's (Vedic) RICHNESS. > > > > > > > > > > > > panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004@> wrote: dear > prashant ji > > > > > > > > is is so nice of you to share your astro knolwedge from > your > > > three > > > > decades of experience and since you are one of the founding > > > members > > > > of ICAS, your inputs are always lessons for amateurs. > > > > > > > > earlier i was using lahiri for the past several years and > > > sometimes > > > > i did not get them right inlcuidng my own. however, after > your > > > > advise, i started using raman's ayanamsha and am getting > the > > > charts, > > > > especially dasa periods, more accurately. unfortunately, > these > > > > ayanamashas can make or break a chart. > > > > > > > > with best wishes > > > > pandit arjun > > > > > > > > , Prashant Kumar G B > > > > <gbp_kumar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Tarun > > > > > I had replied to you, there were 33 Ayanansa's in vouge > > prior > > > to > > > > Lahiri stepping in and pushing his own, this is like a > judge > > who > > > > could not undersand the case but yet gave a verdit. HIS > OWN. > > > > > > > > > > the reason is numerous claims and counter claims to > deal > > with > > > > > > > > > > esp in Tamil Nadu then Madras Province it more a tamil > > > centric > > > > problem there are quite a few thoughts based on their EQ > [ego > > > > quotient] > > > > > where most of them are based on hapazard Vakya panchang > no > > > > corrections took place ever and if a mistake was made by > one > > in > > > the > > > > family chain it continued as it was a brand name so no way > you > > > can > > > > dispute it. there was Madurai, Kanchipuram, Srirangam, > > Tenkasi > > > > etc groups each had a different Panbu panchangam [or snake > > > > calander] quite different from others. and say could not > > agree > > > > comming from one state where will the reminder in India > agree? > > > > > > > > > > Even the tamils themselves had Gochara of Major planets > at > > > > different months variation, eclipses and all others in > chaos. > > no > > > > scientific basis. Lahiri brought in the Drik or verifiable > one > > > > which is caliculated on established astronomical principles > at > > > least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about TAMIL EGO QUOTENT if I follow the lead of RR here > on > > > > storry telling these are true ones though > > > > > > > > > > DURIGN THE BRITISH RAJ DAYS THE SUPREME COURT WAS IN > LONDON > > > or > > > > Privay Council as it was called. dealt with a case of > Iyangars > > a > > > > group of Brahmins of the Vishnavas there are 2 groups in > them > > > > Vadagalai [Northern] and Thengalai [southern] in a temple > > > function > > > > there was a dispute how to Mark the temple elephant's > > forehaead > > > > with a Y or U shaped Mark of the Vaishnava mark > > > > > [Vadagalis Mark it as U and Tehengalais s Y with a > middle > > > line > > > > in red] > > > > > > > > > > they had enough street brawls as Tamils do and finally > went > > > to > > > > the PC [prviy council]. so that being the case you can > never > > say > > > > Lahiri had a easy job at least he standadrised our > calander > > but > > > > Islam is free in India each state Imam can see the same > > Moon's > > > > crecent on a different days and have a different holiday > the > > > state > > > > and Central govt has. all laws are fo Hindus only. > > > > > > > > > > BTW the Tamil EQ's latest M karunadhi and former CM. Ms > > JJ, > > > > are meeting in the assembly after 17 yrs normally the > other > > one > > > > resigns if they loose and don't face each other directly. > > their > > > mud > > > > slinging is of unique depths. > > > > > > > > > > ~~Tarun~~ <tarun_vst@> wrote: Dear RR ji, > > > > > > > > > > yes Shri Nirmal Chandra Lahiri ji lived in calcutta but > > since > > > > varanasi was key centre for > > > > > astrology so the calculations were observed and studied > as > > > par > > > > Varanasi.(as wht i know) > > > > > > > > > > Actually sometimes a question arises that what panchang > was > > > used > > > > before lahiri placed his > > > > > ayanamasa, what was the base of calculations used while > > > making > > > > chart in ancient times. > > > > > > > > > > i think this question is still unanswered. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > > > > > > > > Tarun > > > > > www.thevinayak.com > > > > > > > > > > --- crystal pages <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think Nirmal Chandra Lahiri ji lived in Calcutta > and > > not > > > > Varanasi! > > > > > > > > > > > > Not that it makes that big a difference > longitudinally or > > > > > > latitudinally but could mean several hours of > journey, if > > I > > > > remember > > > > > > correctly between Baba Vishwanath or Sankatmochan or > > Birla > > > > temple and > > > > > > oh say Dakshineshwar or Kalibari! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > , ~~Tarun~~ > > > > <tarun_vst@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear RR ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no problem at all. you are very senior to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sir even in my chart i have the same prob.. if i > use > > > raman > > > > ayanamsa > > > > > > my dasha changes by 18 months. > > > > > > > the rahu placement in my chart also changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > actually raman livd in south india and his location > was > > > much > > > > near > > > > > > to equator in comparison to > > > > > > > Kashi viswanath (base frm where Lahiri gave his > > > > calculations) so > > > > > > the diff is easily expected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my dob 19-07-1983 > > > > > > > time:- 10.35 am > > > > > > > place:- Jodhpur Rajasthan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sir one shows mars rahu combination in 10th and one > > shows > > > > rahu in > > > > > > 9th . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i was always confused abt whom to follow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but if we consider mean node then too my chart > changes > > > and > > > > if i > > > > > > consider true node then too my > > > > > > > chart changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but as far as for Miss astro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i wil say venus ketu combination is not > > matching .because > > > > venus and > > > > > > ketu dont give much better > > > > > > > results as she is descibing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks and regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tarun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- crystal pages <rrgb@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tarun ji, > > > > > > > > <my apologies for mistyping your name as Varun > last > > > time!> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a very interesting situation indeed, > because > > > ketu > > > > and > > > > > > venus > > > > > > > > though in different signs are hardly 3 degrees > apart > > if > > > > using > > > > > > Raman > > > > > > > > ayanamsha, but if using Lahiri we run into > another > > > > conundrum! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are using true nodes, ketu and venus are > in > > same > > > > sign and > > > > > > > > house (9th) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT, if one is using mean nodes,then the two are > in > > > > different > > > > > > signs :- > > > > > > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Miss Astro for sharing this chart that > brings > > us > > > > against > > > > > > yet > > > > > > > > another wall in Jyotish -- "idhar jaaoon yaa > udhar > > > jaaoon - > > > > - > > > > > > kidhar > > > > > > > > jaoon?" as some poet said! :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am assuming that since you did not react > strongly > > and > > > > comment > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > the two being in different sign, that you utilize > > true > > > > nodes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ayanamsha, equal vs unequal houses, mean vs true > > nodes, > > > > isn't > > > > > > Jyotish > > > > > > > > rich with material that will keep us all engaged > for > > > > lifetimes? > > > > > > How > > > > > > > > much work there is to be done, by so few > sincerely > > > > interested > > > > > > > > individuals on this Jyotish Island! And yet some > > would > > > > rather > > > > > > keep > > > > > > > > griping and whining about problems that do not > exists > > > but > > > > only > > > > > > lie in > > > > > > > > their (mis)perception! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > ~~Tarun~~ > > > > <tarun_vst@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hii ??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well love happens when 5th lord is strong. > > > > > > > > > but first thing is that...frm which angle you > find > > > venus > > > > ketu > > > > > > > > combination in his chart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i m using lahiri ayanamsa to analyse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he is spiritual because guru is aspecting lagna > > even > > > > being > > > > > > worst in > > > > > > > > 7th house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > currently his buddha dasha is commencing which > is > > > lord > > > > 3rd and > > > > > > 6th > > > > > > > > house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > one more combination of moon+mercury is in his > > chart. > > > > and that > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > is a dobutful combination but > > > > > > > > > as moon is in amavasya then its effects are > null. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about love marriage...its impossible in his > > chart.as > > > > mars in > > > > > > 5th > > > > > > > > house so it wont make him to do > > > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > 7th lord and 9th lord has exchange and that > will > > > surely > > > > make > > > > > > him to > > > > > > > > get in arrange marriage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i hope other astrologers will also guide my > answers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well he himself know abt the effects of 5th > mars > > and > > > 7th > > > > > > jupiter as > > > > > > > > per lal kitab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks and Best Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tarun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- miss_astro19 <miss_astro19@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > his chart > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dob--- 26/11/1981 > > > > > > > > > > tob--- 16.08 > > > > > > > > > > pob--- ajmer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he is very very shy of girls, and with god > > > blessings > > > > even > > > > > > being > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > smart and intelligent no girl has got > attracted > > > > towards him > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > distract him, and tht too in this age where > any > > boy > > > > can > > > > > > easily > > > > > > > > have a > > > > > > > > > > gf. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > many astrologers told he will have a love > > > > marriage,but our > > > > > > > > guruji > > > > > > > > > > said tht his shukra his weakest, and jupiter > in > > 7th > > > > wont > > > > > > allow > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > marriage wht to say abt love marriage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > he is an astrologer himself, and tht too > very > > good > > > > one, u > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > > his posts on lalkitab group.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > his dreams come true, he saw many world > > happening > > > > much > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > occured in his derams, like worl trade towers > > > > crashing, > > > > > > killing > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > abdul ghani loan, sunami etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > ~~Tarun~~ > > > > > > <tarun_vst@> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hii, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well i cant say about him. But this > combination > > > > often shows > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > described things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can u provide his chart so tht other > > astrologers > > > can > > > > find > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > the reason of him being good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take care > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bye > > > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > > > > http://in.messenger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SURRENDER JOYFULLY TO THE WILL OF THE ULTIMATE DIVINITY > AND > > > > RELISH THE TASTE OF ABSOLUTE BLISS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >