Guest guest Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 dear friends kishore ji and sreenadh ji both have given beautiful insights into the history of astrology. everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. janma nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single deciding factor. due to expansion of all subjects, astrology has become a scientific tool with various varga charts and dozens of new sysems. however, if one mixes astrology with hindu mythology in which plaents are painted as gods and demons, they sound irrational and illogical which is why people are losing faith in astrology. if the same astrology is presented as a science based on astronomy which is a subject that deals with the movement of stars and planets, surely it gains popularity in all nations. due to the commercialisation of remedies like worshipping shani deva with oil abhishekam and all other gods for ailments of malefics, astrology has been reduced to a WAY or FAITH ONLY FOR HINDUS. since planets and stars treat all humans equally (i think they are not made only for hindus), let us strive to PRESENT ASTROLOGY as a subject for all humans instead of just hindus. with best wishes pandit arjun , " kishore mohan " <kishore_future wrote: > > Dear sreenadh, > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something entirely > different. > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has tried > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories > always described the people from same families(belonging to these > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the story > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father who > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an asura. > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as brahmins > later belonged to the sect of Asuras. > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means the > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this society > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create a > new society based on the four Varnas. > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra turned > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis from > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society indra > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are > simply workers came to be called sudras. > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the > sciences also have taken new shape. > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times, the > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic > events. > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has set > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind of > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started fixing > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the Ramayan > times. > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through > mahabharat times. > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND WHAT > YOU ARE TALKING> > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail. > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > , sree nadh > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kishore ji, > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous > message by you. The primary reaction is – > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following > reasons - > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with Vedas, > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and Tropical > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system we > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system. > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam, and > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says the > same as well. > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation of > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the Vedic > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika (divine- > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc concept > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6 > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single interpretation > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the Sayana > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to uphold > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by Sayana as > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well! If > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text. > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the first > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both Sidereal > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described? > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches. The > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now. > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If people > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related to > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and non- > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer? > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings, places > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins of > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by the Sidhu- > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found city > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or prior > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic culture? > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put us > into enough confusion with there various misleading > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!) > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology, architecture, > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in Sankham > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand > that – > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization (?) > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though much > mix-up took place in the later period. > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most scientifically > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin. > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three, but > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors. > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north or > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even though > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half > vedic puranic gods. > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of thought > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and they > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or Vedic. > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in the > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu or > any other subject. > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced in > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of mathematics, > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc) even > today? > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu- Saraswathy > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there is > almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language I > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an expert > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of Sidhu- > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it is > used in plenty? > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non- vedic > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge base > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even merge > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists today > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture! > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took place, > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into it! > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a > fact, we can find! > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is better > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making stories > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making should > be avoided. > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long, and > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how to > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences, or > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject! > Hurah…! To all…! ) > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am supporter > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I am a > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available > type of knowledge streams in ancient India. > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a person > who is good enuf in History in the group who > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis. > > > > K > > > > , sree nadh > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji, > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology > > originated in that period or that that planetory position was > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail ! > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur. > > > ==> > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much > > > > earlier than what you have indicated. > > > <== > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400, and I > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of research. > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to read > it > > till the end. No worries - it is ok. > > > Love, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote: > > > Dear Shreenadh, > > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most > ridiculous > > > and gross. > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much > > > earlier than what you have indicated. > > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the > Vedang. > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the vedic > > > events such as Rituals and festivals. > > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society and > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing people > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas. > > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people are > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as > protecting > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of > > > private property in the strict sense of the word. > > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these people are > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non existent > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic way. > > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the time > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and > > ruler > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took > > place > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who are > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the hands of > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in RgVeda, > The > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the > > development > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The > same > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King > > > sacrifices his body to Devas. > > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came along > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly, this > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the sciences > > > already established in the Land of India. > > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge, synthesis > of > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time that > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture. > > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born, timing > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as > > Coronations > > > etc. > > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended upon > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology. > > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were > > written > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is Sage > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the samhitas > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind. > > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born and > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so. > > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by several > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and the > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with > > more > > > of black magic but not with astrology. > > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have taken > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the beginning > > > of astrology in its present form also! > > > > > > Hope you will agree with me > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Dear Arjun ji, Thanks for the beautiful mail. ==>everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. <== I felt like disagree only to this point since I have heard the Atharva veda sukta - "Jyeshtakhnam jato vichrtoremasya moolabarhanat paripahyanem" Meaning, if a child is born in Jyeshta Nakshatra, his elders (brothers and sisters) will not live long. If a child is born in Moola Nakshatra, his root family will be destroyed. Does it not indicate that Sidereal predictive astrology existed in that period? Then why can't horoscopes - If not Rasi chakra based, then Nakshatra chakra based? But then I read the following statement by you - ==> janma nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single deciding factor. <== I felt, may be you too mean what I said. Love, Sreenadh panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004 wrote: dear friendskishore ji and sreenadh ji both have given beautiful insights into the history of astrology.everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. janma nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single deciding factor.due to expansion of all subjects, astrology has become a scientific tool with various varga charts and dozens of new sysems.however, if one mixes astrology with hindu mythology in which plaents are painted as gods and demons, they sound irrational and illogical which is why people are losing faith in astrology. if the same astrology is presented as a science based on astronomy which is a subject that deals with the movement of stars and planets, surely it gains popularity in all nations.due to the commercialisation of remedies like worshipping shani deva with oil abhishekam and all other gods for ailments of malefics, astrology has been reduced to a WAY or FAITH ONLY FOR HINDUS.since planets and stars treat all humans equally (i think they are not made only for hindus), let us strive to PRESENT ASTROLOGY as a subject for all humans instead of just hindus.with best wishespandit arjun , "kishore mohan" <kishore_future wrote:>> Dear sreenadh, > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something entirely > different. > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has tried > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories > always described the people from same families(belonging to these > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the story > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father who > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an asura. > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as brahmins > later belonged to the sect of Asuras. > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means the > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this society > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create a > new society based on the four Varnas. > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra turned > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis from > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society indra > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are > simply workers came to be called sudras. > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the > sciences also have taken new shape. > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times, the > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic > events. > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has set > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind of > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in > which the clouds are "impregnated". It also has started fixing > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the Ramayan > times. > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through > mahabharat times. > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND WHAT > YOU ARE TALKING> > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail. > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > , sree nadh > <sreesog@> wrote:> >> > Dear Kishore ji,> > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous > message by you. The primary reaction is – > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following > reasons -> > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with Vedas, > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and Tropical > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system we > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system. > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam, and > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says the > same as well.> > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation of > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the Vedic > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika (divine-> assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc concept > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6 > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single interpretation > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the Sayana > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to uphold > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the> > stupid text "Karma vipakam", an astrological text, by Sayana as > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well! If > you don't have "Karma vipakam" with you, just have a look at > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text. > > 4) How many of us know that "Agnimeele purohitam" (the first > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both Sidereal > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described? > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches. The > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.> > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If people > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related to > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and non-> vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer? > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a > separate "Aryan" culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings, places > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins of > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us > is "history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on > Archeological evidences"! What is the evidence provided by the Sidhu-> Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found city > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or prior > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic culture? > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put us > into enough confusion with there various misleading> > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)> > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology, architecture, > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in Sankham > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand > that –> > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization (?) > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though much > mix-up took place in the later period.> > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most scientifically > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.> > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three, but > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.> > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north or > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even though > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half > vedic puranic gods.> > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of thought > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and they > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or Vedic. > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in the > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu or > any other subject.> > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced in > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of mathematics, > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc) even > today? > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-Saraswathy > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there is > almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language I > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an expert > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of Sidhu-> Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it is > used in plenty? > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-vedic > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge base > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even merge > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists today > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture! > Vedas are "used by" the Tantrics and the popular majority to > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took place, > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into it! > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a > fact, we can find!> > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is better > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making stories > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making should > be avoided. > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long, and > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how to > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences, or > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject! > Hurah…! To all…! )> > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am supporter > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I am a > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available > type of knowledge streams in ancient India. > > Love,> > Sreenadh> > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a person > who is good enuf in History in the group who> > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.> > > > K> > > > --- In , sree nadh> > wrote:> > >> > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology> > originated in that period or that that planetory position was> > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !> > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as> > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur. > > > ==>> > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > > <==> > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that> > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400, and I> > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona> > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of research.> > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any> > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have> > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to read > it> > till the end. No worries - it is ok. > > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > kishore mohan wrote:> > > Dear Shreenadh,> > >> > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and> > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most > ridiculous> > > and gross.> > >> > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > >> > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the > Vedang.> > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the vedic> > > events such as Rituals and festivals.> > >> > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society and> > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing people> > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by> > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.> > >> > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people are> > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as > protecting> > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of> > > private property in the strict sense of the word.> > >> > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these people are> > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non existent> > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic way.> > >> > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the time> > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and> > ruler> > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took> > place> > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who are> > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the hands of> > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in RgVeda, > The> > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the> > development> > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The > same> > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King> > > sacrifices his body to Devas.> > >> > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came along> > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly, this> > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the sciences> > > already established in the Land of India.> > >> > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge, synthesis > of> > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time that> > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane> > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.> > >> > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and> > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born, timing> > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as> > Coronations> > > etc.> > >> > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended upon> > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.> > >> > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were> > written> > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many> > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is Sage> > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the samhitas> > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of> > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.> > >> > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born and> > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.> > >> > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by several> > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and the> > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with> > more> > > of black magic but not with astrology.> > >> > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given> > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have taken> > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the beginning> > > of astrology in its present form also!> > >> > > Hope you will agree with me> > >> > > Kishore patnaik> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 dear sreenadh ji as mentioned in your concluding remark, i too meant what you said about prediction based on stars. due to so many systems of casting horoscopes, so many ayanamshas and so many dasha systems and yogakaraka under one system becoming a badhaka under another system, intelligent people are putting more queries on this subject. through this group i wish to share or learn to present astrology as a subject for all humans, not just hindus since all humans are affected by planets and not just hindus in this part of the world. with best wishes pandita rjun , sree nadh <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Arjun ji, > Thanks for the beautiful mail. > ==> > everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for > predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing > muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. > <== > I felt like disagree only to this point since I have heard the Atharva veda sukta - > " Jyeshtakhnam jato vichrtoremasya moolabarhanat paripahyanem " > Meaning, if a child is born in Jyeshta Nakshatra, his elders (brothers and sisters) will not live long. If a child is born in Moola Nakshatra, his root family will be destroyed. > > Does it not indicate that Sidereal predictive astrology existed in that period? Then why can't horoscopes - If not Rasi chakra based, then Nakshatra chakra based? > > But then I read the following statement by you - > ==> > janma nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single > deciding factor. > <== > I felt, may be you too mean what I said. > Love, > Sreenadh > > > > > panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear friends > > kishore ji and sreenadh ji both have given beautiful insights into > the history of astrology. > > everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for > predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing > muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. janma > nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single > deciding factor. > > due to expansion of all subjects, astrology has become a scientific > tool with various varga charts and dozens of new sysems. > > however, if one mixes astrology with hindu mythology in which > plaents are painted as gods and demons, they sound irrational and > illogical which is why people are losing faith in astrology. if the > same astrology is presented as a science based on astronomy which is > a subject that deals with the movement of stars and planets, surely > it gains popularity in all nations. > > due to the commercialisation of remedies like worshipping shani deva > with oil abhishekam and all other gods for ailments of malefics, > astrology has been reduced to a WAY or FAITH ONLY FOR HINDUS. > > since planets and stars treat all humans equally (i think they are > not made only for hindus), let us strive to PRESENT ASTROLOGY as a > subject for all humans instead of just hindus. > > with best wishes > pandit arjun > > , " kishore mohan " > <kishore_future@> wrote: > > > > Dear sreenadh, > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something > entirely > > different. > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has > tried > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories > > always described the people from same families(belonging to these > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the > story > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father who > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an > asura. > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as > brahmins > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras. > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means > the > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this > society > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create > a > > new society based on the four Varnas. > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra > turned > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis > from > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society > indra > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are > > simply workers came to be called sudras. > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the > > sciences also have taken new shape. > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times, > the > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic > > events. > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has > set > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind > of > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started fixing > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. > > > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the > Ramayan > > times. > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked > in > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through > > mahabharat times. > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam > age, > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. > > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND > WHAT > > YOU ARE TALKING> > > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail. > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > , sree nadh > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji, > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous > > message by you. The primary reaction is – > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following > > reasons - > > > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with > Vedas, > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and > Tropical > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system > we > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system. > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam, > and > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says > the > > same as well. > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation > of > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the > Vedic > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika > (divine- > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc > concept > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6 > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single > interpretation > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the > Sayana > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to uphold > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by Sayana as > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well! > If > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text. > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the > first > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both > Sidereal > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described? > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches. > The > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now. > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If > people > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related > to > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and > non- > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer? > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings, > places > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins > of > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by the > Sidhu- > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found > city > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or > prior > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic > culture? > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put > us > > into enough confusion with there various misleading > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!) > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology, > architecture, > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in > Sankham > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand > > that – > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization > (?) > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though > much > > mix-up took place in the later period. > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most > scientifically > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin. > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three, > but > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors. > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north > or > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even > though > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half > > vedic puranic gods. > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of > thought > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and > they > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or > Vedic. > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in > the > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu > or > > any other subject. > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced > in > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of > mathematics, > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc) > even > > today? > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu- > Saraswathy > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there > is > > almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language > I > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an > expert > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of > Sidhu- > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it > is > > used in plenty? > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non- > vedic > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge > base > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even merge > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists > today > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture! > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took > place, > > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into > it! > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a > > fact, we can find! > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is > better > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making > stories > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making > should > > be avoided. > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we > > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long, > and > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how > to > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences, > or > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject! > > Hurah…! To all…! ) > > > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am > supporter > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I > am a > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India. > > > Love, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a person > > who is good enuf in History in the group who > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis. > > > > > > K > > > > > > , sree nadh > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji, > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology > > > originated in that period or that that planetory position was > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail ! > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur. > > > > ==> > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times > much > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated. > > > > <== > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400, > and I > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of > research. > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to > read > > it > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok. > > > > Love, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote: > > > > Dear Shreenadh, > > > > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most > > ridiculous > > > > and gross. > > > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much > > > > earlier than what you have indicated. > > > > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the > > Vedang. > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the > vedic > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals. > > > > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society > and > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing > people > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas. > > > > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people > are > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as > > protecting > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word. > > > > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these people > are > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non > existent > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic > way. > > > > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the > time > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and > > > ruler > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took > > > place > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who > are > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the > hands of > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in > RgVeda, > > The > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the > > > development > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The > > same > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas. > > > > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came > along > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly, > this > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the > sciences > > > > already established in the Land of India. > > > > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge, > synthesis > > of > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time > that > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture. > > > > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born, > timing > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as > > > Coronations > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended > upon > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology. > > > > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were > > > written > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is > Sage > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the > samhitas > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind. > > > > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born > and > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so. > > > > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by > several > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and > the > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with > > > more > > > > of black magic but not with astrology. > > > > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have > taken > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the > beginning > > > > of astrology in its present form also! > > > > > > > > Hope you will agree with me > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Dear arjun punditji, Namaskar. From what you said, I conclude that we should present Astrology as a Secular science. Both the greatness and bane of the Indian sciences/thinking is that every concept is shown to be having its roots in spirituality and every science, its base in Vedas. Even a violent science like Archery has been connected to spirituality. Every powerful missile has been assigned a mantra and is supposed to be presided by a deity. If this is supposed to be true, then why should people like Arjuna and Karna had to toil so much to practice archery? All that they needed to do was to sit in one corner of the gurukul and memorize the necessary mantras and bang, they would have become the masters of archery! In fact, the need to present a science secularly has been recognized long ago by the Doctors. The early Indian medical and surgical sciences had their conceptual roots in sankhya tattwa of Kapila. While Kapila, who is recognized as one of the avaatars of the Visnu, has indeed propounded an iswareeya sankhya, the later proponents have totally rejected concept of iswara, only because this has become a hurdle in practicing the medical scienes. Unfortunately, this rejection has become so strong that it came to be believed that Kapila;s propositions themselves are nireeswara in nature. For eg., Sankara has disliked kapila so much that whenever the word sankhya has come in Gita, he has interpreted it to mean the wisdom and not the school of philosophy proposed by Kapila!! My clients include christians and Jains, who resist the Hindu rituals to be prescribed as remedies. Often, I prescribe them more secular remedies such as from Lalkitab or stones . Yet, I have made one christian do tarpanas to his father, albeit with out the usual parapharnalia of reciting mantras etc. He found that he is able to accomplish what he wanted to for a very long time - build a house- immediately after he has done such a remedy!!! All said and done, Astrology is a spiritual science and it is not really possible to present it as an absolute secular science> But an attempt has to be made to present it to everyone, irrespective of their dharma. Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Dear Kishore ji, ==> In fact, the need to present a science secularly has been recognized long ago by the Doctors. The early Indian medical and surgical sciences had their conceptual roots in sankhya tattwa of Kapila. While Kapila, who is recognized as one of the avaatars of the Visnu, has indeed propounded an iswareeya sankhya, the later proponents have totally rejected concept of iswara, only because this has become a hurdle in practicing the medical scienes. Unfortunately, this rejection has become so strong that it came to be believed that Kapila;s propositions themselves are nireeswara in nature. For eg., Sankara has disliked kapila so much that whenever the word sankhya has come in Gita, he has interpreted it to mean the wisdom and not the school of philosophy proposed by Kapila!! <== I too have a very high regard for the Sankhya system. Love, Sreenadh kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: Dear arjun punditji, Namaskar.From what you said, I conclude that we should present Astrology as a Secular science. Both the greatness and bane of the Indian sciences/thinking is that every concept is shown to be having its roots in spirituality and every science, its base in Vedas. Even a violent science like Archery has been connected to spirituality. Every powerful missile has been assigned a mantra and is supposed to be presided by a deity. If this is supposed to be true, then why should people like Arjuna and Karna had to toil so much to practice archery? All that they needed to do was to sit in one corner of the gurukul and memorize the necessary mantras and bang, they would have become the masters of archery!In fact, the need to present a science secularly has been recognized long ago by the Doctors. The early Indian medical and surgical sciences had their conceptual roots in sankhya tattwa of Kapila. While Kapila, who is recognized as one of the avaatars of the Visnu, has indeed propounded an iswareeya sankhya, the later proponents have totally rejected concept of iswara, only because this has become a hurdle in practicing the medical scienes. Unfortunately, this rejection has become so strong that it came to be believed that Kapila;s propositions themselves are nireeswara in nature. For eg., Sankara has disliked kapila so much that whenever the word sankhya has come in Gita, he has interpreted it to mean the wisdom and not the school of philosophy proposed by Kapila!!My clients include christians and Jains, who resist the Hindu rituals to be prescribed as remedies. Often, I prescribe them more secular remedies such as from Lalkitab or stones . Yet, I have made one christian do tarpanas to his father, albeit with out the usual parapharnalia of reciting mantras etc. He found that he is able to accomplish what he wanted to for a very long time - build a house- immediately after he has done such a remedy!!!All said and done, Astrology is a spiritual science and it is not really possible to present it as an absolute secular science> But an attempt has to be made to present it to everyone, irrespective of their dharma. Kishore patnaik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Dear Arjun ji, ==> through this group i wish to share or learn to present astrology as a subject for all humans, not just hindus since all humans are affected by planets and not just hindus in this part of the world. <== That was beutiful. I agree with it completly. Love, Sreenadh panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004 wrote: dear sreenadh jias mentioned in your concluding remark, i too meant what you said about prediction based on stars.due to so many systems of casting horoscopes, so many ayanamshas and so many dasha systems and yogakaraka under one system becoming a badhaka under another system, intelligent people are putting more queries on this subject. through this group i wish to share or learn to present astrology as a subject for all humans, not just hindus since all humans are affected by planets and not just hindus in this part of the world.with best wishespandita rjun , sree nadh <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Arjun ji,> Thanks for the beautiful mail. > ==>> everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for > predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing > muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. > <==> I felt like disagree only to this point since I have heard the Atharva veda sukta -> "Jyeshtakhnam jato vichrtoremasya moolabarhanat paripahyanem"> Meaning, if a child is born in Jyeshta Nakshatra, his elders (brothers and sisters) will not live long. If a child is born in Moola Nakshatra, his root family will be destroyed.> > Does it not indicate that Sidereal predictive astrology existed in that period? Then why can't horoscopes - If not Rasi chakra based, then Nakshatra chakra based?> > But then I read the following statement by you -> ==>> janma nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single > deciding factor.> <==> I felt, may be you too mean what I said. > Love,> Sreenadh> > > > > panditarjun2004 <panditarjun2004 wrote:> > dear friends> > kishore ji and sreenadh ji both have given beautiful insights into > the history of astrology.> > everyone agrees that in vedic period, astrology was never used for > predictions or for casting horoscopes. it was meant only for fixing > muhurtams, purely based on the movement of stars/planets. janma > nakshatram used to be of utmost importance and used to be the single > deciding factor.> > due to expansion of all subjects, astrology has become a scientific > tool with various varga charts and dozens of new sysems.> > however, if one mixes astrology with hindu mythology in which > plaents are painted as gods and demons, they sound irrational and > illogical which is why people are losing faith in astrology. if the > same astrology is presented as a science based on astronomy which is > a subject that deals with the movement of stars and planets, surely > it gains popularity in all nations.> > due to the commercialisation of remedies like worshipping shani deva > with oil abhishekam and all other gods for ailments of malefics, > astrology has been reduced to a WAY or FAITH ONLY FOR HINDUS.> > since planets and stars treat all humans equally (i think they are > not made only for hindus), let us strive to PRESENT ASTROLOGY as a > subject for all humans instead of just hindus.> > with best wishes> pandit arjun> > , "kishore mohan" > <kishore_future@> wrote:> >> > Dear sreenadh, > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something > entirely > > different. > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has > tried > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories > > always described the people from same families(belonging to these > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the > story > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father who > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an > asura. > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as > brahmins > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras. > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means > the > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this > society > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create > a > > new society based on the four Varnas. > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra > turned > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis > from > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society > indra > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are > > simply workers came to be called sudras. > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the > > sciences also have taken new shape. > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times, > the > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic > > events. > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has > set > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind > of > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in > > which the clouds are "impregnated". It also has started fixing > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. > > > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the > Ramayan > > times. > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked > in > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through > > mahabharat times. > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam > age, > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. > > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND > WHAT > > YOU ARE TALKING> > > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail. > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > , sree nadh > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous > > message by you. The primary reaction is – > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following > > reasons -> > > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with > Vedas, > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and > Tropical > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system > we > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system. > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam, > and > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says > the > > same as well.> > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation > of > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the > Vedic > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika > (divine-> > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc > concept > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6 > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single > interpretation > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the > Sayana > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to uphold > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the> > > stupid text "Karma vipakam", an astrological text, by Sayana as > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well! > If > > you don't have "Karma vipakam" with you, just have a look at > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text. > > > 4) How many of us know that "Agnimeele purohitam" (the > first > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both > Sidereal > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described? > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches. > The > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.> > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If > people > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related > to > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and > non-> > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer? > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a > > separate "Aryan" culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings, > places > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins > of > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us > > is "history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on > > Archeological evidences"! What is the evidence provided by the > Sidhu-> > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found > city > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or > prior > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic > culture? > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put > us > > into enough confusion with there various misleading> > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)> > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology, > architecture, > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in > Sankham > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand > > that –> > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization > (?) > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though > much > > mix-up took place in the later period.> > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most > scientifically > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.> > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three, > but > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.> > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north > or > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even > though > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half > > vedic puranic gods.> > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of > thought > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and > they > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or > Vedic. > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in > the > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu > or > > any other subject.> > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced > in > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of > mathematics, > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc) > even > > today? > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-> Saraswathy > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there > is > > almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language > I > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an > expert > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of > Sidhu-> > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it > is > > used in plenty? > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-> vedic > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge > base > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even merge > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists > today > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture! > > Vedas are "used by" the Tantrics and the popular majority to > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took > place, > > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into > it! > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a > > fact, we can find!> > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is > better > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making > stories > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making > should > > be avoided. > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we > > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long, > and > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how > to > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences, > or > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject! > > Hurah…! To all…! )> > > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am > supporter > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I > am a > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India. > > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a person > > who is good enuf in History in the group who> > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.> > > > > > K> > > > > > , sree nadh> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology> > > originated in that period or that that planetory position was> > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !> > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as> > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur. > > > > ==>> > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times > much> > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > > > <==> > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that> > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400, > and I> > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona> > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of > research.> > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any> > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have> > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to > read > > it> > > till the end. No worries - it is ok. > > > > Love,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > kishore mohan wrote:> > > > Dear Shreenadh,> > > >> > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and> > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most > > ridiculous> > > > and gross.> > > >> > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > > >> > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the > > Vedang.> > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the > vedic> > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.> > > >> > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society > and> > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing > people> > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by> > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.> > > >> > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people > are> > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as > > protecting> > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of> > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.> > > >> > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these people > are> > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non > existent> > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic > way.> > > >> > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the > time> > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and> > > ruler> > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took> > > place> > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who > are> > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the > hands of> > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in > RgVeda, > > The> > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the> > > development> > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The > > same> > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King> > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.> > > >> > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came > along> > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly, > this> > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the > sciences> > > > already established in the Land of India.> > > >> > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge, > synthesis > > of> > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time > that> > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane> > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.> > > >> > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and> > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born, > timing> > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as> > > Coronations> > > > etc.> > > >> > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended > upon> > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.> > > >> > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were> > > written> > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many> > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is > Sage> > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the > samhitas> > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of> > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.> > > >> > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born > and> > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.> > > >> > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by > several> > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and > the> > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with> > > more> > > > of black magic but not with astrology.> > > >> > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given> > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have > taken> > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the > beginning> > > > of astrology in its present form also!> > > >> > > > Hope you will agree with me> > > >> > > > Kishore patnaik> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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