Indus vally civilization was AFTER Mabhaharata and vedic period says Kishore ji ?!!!!

[Guest guest]

Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian chronology I

follow is not that one which has been given by the Britishers!!!!

 

Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken place

about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my message

and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

 

Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED that the

difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took place

around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- with say,

(once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between each

veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never asked

the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we can

safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree that it

is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally agreed)

dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to be

after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a mega

civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

 

 

On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that Indus

valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But

again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded

pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be a

civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not

described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might have

slightly predated MB.

 

But to be frank, this is only presumption.

 

Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is not a

single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed true

that it must be very very prior to MB.

 

If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken

place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the lineage

of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the dating

of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

 

But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not convinced of

any these arguements.

 

You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I have

said about the chronology, but will you please give me one iota of

evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners) chronology,

either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, you

might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a big

gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof or

logic presented by any of the westeners.

 

If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

 

Kishore patnaik

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, sree nadh

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kishore ji,

> ==>

> No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked

in

> my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> mahabharat times.

> <==

> From where you got this maths?

> i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> Any supporting evidence?

>

> ==>

> Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam

age,

> indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later

> times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> <==

> Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the fact

that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

otherwise)!

> I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was

before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

> * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!

> And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who

lived after!

> Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting " indus

valley period " in that list or the like?

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

>

> kishore mohan <kishore_future wrote:

> Dear sreenadh,

>

> Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am

> speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

entirely

> different.

>

> That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has

> tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has

tried

> to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called

> Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's

> father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a

> brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories

> always described the people from same families(belonging to these

> times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the

story

> teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a

> brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father who

> valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an

asura.

>

> So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

brahmins

> later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

>

> The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the

> establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means

the

> constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this

society

> was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create

a

> new society based on the four Varnas.

>

> The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra

turned

> out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis

from

> the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society

indra

> came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are

> simply workers came to be called sudras.

>

> Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good

> amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The

> changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the

> sciences also have taken new shape.

>

> One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times,

the

> astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic

> events.

>

> After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has

set

> in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the

> agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to

> see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind

of

> rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in

> which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started fixing

> muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

>

> With the increase in population and number of trades and the

> flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started

> telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the

Ramayan

> times.

>

> No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked

in

> my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> mahabharat times.

>

> Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam

age,

> indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later

> times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

>

> HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND

WHAT

> YOU ARE TALKING>

>

> Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

>

> Kishore patnaik

>

>

>

>

> , sree nadh

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous

> message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following

> reasons -

> >

> > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

Vedas,

> but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and

Tropical

> calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system

we

> follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of

> Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of

> Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana

> (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well

> accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam,

and

> many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says

the

> same as well.

> > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

of

> Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good

> translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the

Vedic

> literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika

(divine-

> assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc

concept

> should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single

> interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement

> that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6

> branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws

> (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

interpretation

> of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the

Sayana

> Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of

> Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to uphold

> the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by Sayana as

> well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well!

If

> you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at

> Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text.

> > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

first

> sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about

> the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

Sidereal

> and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches.

The

> science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.

> > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If

people

> like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related

to

> celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and

non-

> vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer?

> > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a

> separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic

> culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings,

places

> where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins

of

> great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on

> Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by the

Sidhu-

> Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of

> Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found

city

> under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or

prior

> to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there

> any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

culture?

> (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put

us

> into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)

> > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

architecture,

> religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

Sankham

> period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and

> Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand

> that –

> > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

(?)

> and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though

much

> mix-up took place in the later period.

> > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

scientifically

> advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

but

> it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient

> knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English

> invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

or

> south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even

though

> later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half

> vedic puranic gods.

> > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

thought

> that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and

they

> were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or

Vedic.

> This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in

the

> history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu

or

> any other subject.

> > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

in

> architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

mathematics,

> astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by

> historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of

> several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc)

even

> today?

> > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

Saraswathy

> civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is

> supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols

> indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there

is

> almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics

> including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language

I

> know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an

expert

> on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the

> language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English

> which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when

> English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of

Sidhu-

> Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it

is

> used in plenty?

> > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

vedic

> gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and

> still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge

base

> and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even merge

> the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists

today

> are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture!

> Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to

> safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took

place,

> the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into

it!

> Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a

> fact, we can find!

> > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

better

> to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

stories

> > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive

> research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and

> research principles! Even after study, baseless story making

should

> be avoided.

> > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we

> know, rather than start doing story making for history. The

> historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long,

and

> still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of

> history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post

> graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how

to

> protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences,

or

> the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject!

> Hurah…! To all…! )

> >

> > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

supporter

> of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I

am a

> supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available

> type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> >

> > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a person

> who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> >

> > K

> >

> > , sree nadh

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology

> > originated in that period or that that planetory position was

> > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !

> > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > ==>

> > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

much

> > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > <==

> > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that

> > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400,

and I

> > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona

> > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

research.

> > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any

> > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have

> > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to

read

> it

> > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > >

> > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and

> > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most

> ridiculous

> > > and gross.

> > >

> > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much

> > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > >

> > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the

> Vedang.

> > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the

vedic

> > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > >

> > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society

and

> > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing

people

> > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by

> > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > >

> > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people

are

> > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as

> protecting

> > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of

> > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > >

> > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these people

are

> > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non

existent

> > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic

way.

> > >

> > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the

time

> > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and

> > ruler

> > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took

> > place

> > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who

are

> > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the

hands of

> > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

RgVeda,

> The

> > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > development

> > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The

> same

> > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King

> > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > >

> > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came

along

> > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly,

this

> > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the

sciences

> > > already established in the Land of India.

> > >

> > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

synthesis

> of

> > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time

that

> > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane

> > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.

> > >

> > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and

> > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born,

timing

> > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > Coronations

> > > etc.

> > >

> > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended

upon

> > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > >

> > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were

> > written

> > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many

> > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is

Sage

> > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the

samhitas

> > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of

> > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > >

> > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born

and

> > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.

> > >

> > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by

several

> > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and

the

> > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with

> > more

> > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > >

> > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given

> > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have

taken

> > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the

beginning

> > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > >

> > > Hope you will agree with me

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Kishore ji, My doubt is: What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least 2000 years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more years between them. Supportive ideas - * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas. * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew Sanskrit. * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-Saraswaty language.

* Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language (since being ancient?) * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization. * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical period, even at the time of Mouryas. * There are many archeological evidences to prove that Sindhu-Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to dying up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there. Love, Sreenadh kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian chronology I follow is not that one which has been given by the Britishers!!!!Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken place about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my message and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago). Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without dispute. Once they have dated

one layer, they have ASSUMED that the difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took place around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- with say,(once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between each veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never asked the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we can safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree that it is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally agreed) dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to be after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a mega civilization anywhere in Mahabharat. On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that Indus valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature.

But again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be a civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might have slightly predated MB. But to be frank, this is only presumption. Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is not a single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed true that it must be very very prior to MB. If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the lineage of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the dating of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait) But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not convinced of any these arguements. You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I have

said about the chronology, but will you please give me one iota of evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners) chronology, either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, you might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a big gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof or logic presented by any of the westeners. If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley. Kishore patnaik , sree nadh <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Kishore ji,> ==>> No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through > mahabharat times. > <==> From

where you got this maths? > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!> Any supporting evidence?> > ==>> Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. > <==> Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!! That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the fact that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or otherwise)!> I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that - > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and> * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!> And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who lived after!> Is

there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting "indus valley period" in that list or the like? > Love,> Sreenadh> > > kishore mohan <kishore_future wrote:> Dear sreenadh, > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something entirely > different. > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has tried > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories > always described the people

from same families(belonging to these > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the story > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father who > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an asura. > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as brahmins > later belonged to the sect of Asuras. > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means the > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this society > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create a > new society based on the four Varnas. > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra turned > out to be the ruler

class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis from > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society indra > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are > simply workers came to be called sudras. > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the > sciences also have taken new shape. > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times, the > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic > events. > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has set > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to > see that it

flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind of > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in > which the clouds are "impregnated". It also has started fixing > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the Ramayan > times. > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through > mahabharat times. > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later > times to mahabharat.

And hence, there is no comparison. > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND WHAT > YOU ARE TALKING> > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail. > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > , sree nadh > <sreesog@> wrote:> >> > Dear Kishore ji,> > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous > message by you. The primary reaction is – > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following > reasons -> > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with Vedas, > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and Tropical > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system we

> follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system. > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam, and > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says the > same as well.> > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation of > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the Vedic > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika (divine-> assigning imaginary

personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc concept > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6 > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single interpretation > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the Sayana > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to uphold > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the> > stupid text "Karma vipakam", an astrological text, by Sayana as > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well! If > you don't have

"Karma vipakam" with you, just have a look at > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text. > > 4) How many of us know that "Agnimeele purohitam" (the first > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both Sidereal > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described? > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches. The > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.> > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If people > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related to > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and non-> vedic cultures, with

supportive proof what would be your answer? > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a > separate "Aryan" culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings, places > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins of > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us > is "history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on > Archeological evidences"! What is the evidence provided by the Sidhu-> Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found city > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or prior > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there > any archeological

proof that it is related to vedic or epic culture? > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put us > into enough confusion with there various misleading> > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)> > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology, architecture, > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in Sankham > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand > that –> > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization (?) > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though much > mix-up took place in the later period.> > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most scientifically > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.> > · Dravidian civilization was the latest

of the three, but > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.> > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north or > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even though > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half > vedic puranic gods.> > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of thought > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and they > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or Vedic. > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in the > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu or > any other

subject.> > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced in > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of mathematics, > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc) even > today? > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-Saraswathy > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there is > almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language I > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an expert > on such

subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of Sidhu-> Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it is > used in plenty? > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-vedic > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge base > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even merge > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists today > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture! > Vedas are "used by" the Tantrics and the popular majority to > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though

much mixing took place, > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into it! > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a > fact, we can find!> > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is better > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making stories > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making should > be avoided. > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long, and > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition

of the study of > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how to > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences, or > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject! > Hurah…! To all…! )> > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am supporter > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I am a > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available > type of knowledge streams in ancient India. > > Love,> > Sreenadh> > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a person > who is good enuf in History in the group who> > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.> > > > K> >

> > , sree nadh> > wrote:> > >> > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology> > originated in that period or that that planetory position was> > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !> > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as> > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur. > > > ==>> > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > > <==> > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that> > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400, and I> > was looking

for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona> > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of research.> > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any> > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have> > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to read > it> > till the end. No worries - it is ok. > > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > kishore mohan wrote:> > > Dear Shreenadh,> > >> > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and> > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most > ridiculous> > > and gross.> > >> > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > >>

> > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the > Vedang.> > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the vedic> > > events such as Rituals and festivals.> > >> > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society and> > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing people> > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by> > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.> > >> > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people are> > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as > protecting> > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of> > > private property in the strict sense of the word.> > >> > > There were commercial traders called

Panis. While these people are> > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non existent> > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic way.> > >> > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the time> > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and> > ruler> > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took> > place> > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who are> > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the hands of> > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in RgVeda, > The> > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the> > development> > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The >

same> > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King> > > sacrifices his body to Devas.> > >> > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came along> > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly, this> > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the sciences> > > already established in the Land of India.> > >> > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge, synthesis > of> > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time that> > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane> > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.> > >> > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and> > > people started remembering the stars

in which one was born, timing> > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as> > Coronations> > > etc.> > >> > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended upon> > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.> > >> > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were> > written> > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many> > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is Sage> > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the samhitas> > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of> > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.> > >> > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born and> > > Sage Parasara

was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.> > >> > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by several> > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and the> > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with> > more> > > of black magic but not with astrology.> > >> > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given> > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have taken> > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the beginning> > > of astrology in its present form also!> > >> > > Hope you will agree with me> > >> > > Kishore patnaik> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >

>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >

[Guest guest]

dear shreenadh,

 

Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal hold

that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of Indians,

the nationalists beg to differ.

 

As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for 1500

years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans have

landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true that the

civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings looking

like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that the

civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same being

by Aryans.

 

More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have never

bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city, thus,

making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

 

The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two counts:

 

First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither could

believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have such a

hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as much as

they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the Indians

by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

 

The second problem that they have encountered is the christian

belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000 years or

so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into this

limited period of known world.

 

Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would make

Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the world and

apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch

theories were floated in case of Indian past.

 

 

Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as

the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited their

imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the

scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude to

recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians were not

much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by westeners,

we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly anyone to

protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian history

 

Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages, before

the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves during

the late 80's.

 

The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's story

based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used these

sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

versions , which were somehow galore in apparent contradictions.

On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the puranic

sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa and

canakya.

 

Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta maurya at

1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being in

327 bce.

 

While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a fool

proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a day is

not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

Kishore patnaik

 

 

, sree nadh

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kishore ji,

> My doubt is:

> What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least 2000

years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more

years between them. Supportive ideas -

> * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew

Sanskrit.

> * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-

Saraswaty language.

> * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language (since

being ancient?)

> * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara

chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization

seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical period,

even at the time of Mouryas.

> * There are many archeological evidences to prove that Sindhu-

Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to dying

up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

>

> kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

>

> Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian

chronology I

> follow is not that one which has been given by the Britishers!!!!

>

> Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken

place

> about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my message

> and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

>

> Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

> dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED that

the

> difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

> historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took

place

> around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- with

say,

> (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between each

> veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never

asked

> the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we

can

> safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree that

it

> is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally

agreed)

> dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to be

> after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a mega

> civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

>

> On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that Indus

> valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But

> again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded

> pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be a

> civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not

> described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might

have

> slightly predated MB.

>

> But to be frank, this is only presumption.

>

> Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is not

a

> single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed true

> that it must be very very prior to MB.

>

> If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken

> place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the lineage

> of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the

dating

> of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

>

> But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not convinced

of

> any these arguements.

>

> You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I have

> said about the chronology, but will you please give me one iota of

> evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners) chronology,

> either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, you

> might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a big

> gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof or

> logic presented by any of the westeners.

>

> If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

>

> Kishore patnaik

>

> , sree nadh

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > ==>

> > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

talked

> in

> > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> > mahabharat times.

> > <==

> > From where you got this maths?

> > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > Any supporting evidence?

> >

> > ==>

> > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam

> age,

> > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

later

> > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > <==

> > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

> That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the

fact

> that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

> otherwise)!

> > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was

> before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

> > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!

> > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who

> lived after!

> > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting " indus

> valley period " in that list or the like?

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> >

> > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > Dear sreenadh,

> >

> > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am

> > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

> entirely

> > different.

> >

> > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has

> > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has

> tried

> > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called

> > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

sachidevi's

> > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a

> > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later

stories

> > always described the people from same families(belonging to

these

> > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the

> story

> > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a

> > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father

who

> > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an

> asura.

> >

> > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

> brahmins

> > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> >

> > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the

> > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha

means

> the

> > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this

> society

> > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to

create

> a

> > new society based on the four Varnas.

> >

> > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra

> turned

> > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis

> from

> > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society

> indra

> > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are

> > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> >

> > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and

good

> > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The

> > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of

the

> > sciences also have taken new shape.

> >

> > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic

times,

> the

> > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic

> > events.

> >

> > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture

has

> set

> > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the

> > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools

to

> > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind

> of

> > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment

in

> > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started fixing

> > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> >

> > With the increase in population and number of trades and the

> > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started

> > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the

> Ramayan

> > times.

> >

> > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

talked

> in

> > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> > mahabharat times.

> >

> > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam

> age,

> > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

later

> > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> >

> > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND

> WHAT

> > YOU ARE TALKING>

> >

> > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , sree nadh

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous

> > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following

> > reasons -

> > >

> > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> Vedas,

> > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and

> Tropical

> > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system

> we

> > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of

> > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept

of

> > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with

Prana

> > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is

well

> > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam,

> and

> > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says

> the

> > same as well.

> > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

> of

> > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good

> > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the

> Vedic

> > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika

> (divine-

> > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc

> concept

> > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single

> > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

statement

> > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6

> > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws

> > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> interpretation

> > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the

> Sayana

> > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of

> > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to

uphold

> > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by Sayana

as

> > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as

well!

> If

> > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at

> > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text.

> > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> first

> > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking

about

> > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

> Sidereal

> > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches.

> The

> > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.

> > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If

> people

> > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather

related

> to

> > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and

> non-

> > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer?

> > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for

a

> > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate

vedic

> > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings,

> places

> > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the

ruins

> of

> > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on

> > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by the

> Sidhu-

> > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of

> > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found

> city

> > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or

> prior

> > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is

there

> > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

> culture?

> > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already

put

> us

> > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)

> > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> architecture,

> > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

> Sankham

> > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy

and

> > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

understand

> > that –

> > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> (?)

> > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though

> much

> > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> scientifically

> > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> but

> > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient

> > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English

> > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> or

> > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even

> though

> > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some

half

> > vedic puranic gods.

> > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> thought

> > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and

> they

> > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or

> Vedic.

> > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in

> the

> > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or

vastu

> or

> > any other subject.

> > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

> in

> > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> mathematics,

> > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by

> > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of

> > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc)

> even

> > today?

> > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> Saraswathy

> > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is

> > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols

> > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now

there

> is

> > almost not even a single language that exist this

characteristics

> > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such

language

> I

> > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an

> expert

> > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the

> > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English

> > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when

> > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of

> Sidhu-

> > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it

> is

> > used in plenty?

> > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

> vedic

> > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion),

and

> > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge

> base

> > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even

merge

> > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists

> today

> > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

culture!

> > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to

> > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took

> place,

> > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged

into

> it!

> > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is

a

> > fact, we can find!

> > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

> better

> > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

> stories

> > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive

> > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and

> > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making

> should

> > be avoided.

> > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we

> > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The

> > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for

long,

> and

> > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of

> > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post

> > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or

how

> to

> > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

evidences,

> or

> > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject!

> > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > >

> > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> supporter

> > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I

> am a

> > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

available

> > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > >

> > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a

person

> > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> > > , sree nadh

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that

astrology

> > > originated in that period or that that planetory position was

> > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !

> > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > ==>

> > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

> much

> > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > <==

> > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that

> > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400,

> and I

> > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

Moolatrikona

> > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

> research.

> > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any

> > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I

have

> > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to

> read

> > it

> > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > >

> > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and

> > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most

> > ridiculous

> > > > and gross.

> > > >

> > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

much

> > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > >

> > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the

> > Vedang.

> > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the

> vedic

> > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > >

> > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this

society

> and

> > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing

> people

> > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by

> > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > >

> > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these

people

> are

> > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as

> > protecting

> > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept

of

> > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > >

> > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these

people

> are

> > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non

> existent

> > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic

> way.

> > > >

> > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during

the

> time

> > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice

and

> > > ruler

> > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that

took

> > > place

> > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people

who

> are

> > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the

> hands of

> > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

> RgVeda,

> > The

> > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > > development

> > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system.

The

> > same

> > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King

> > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > >

> > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came

> along

> > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

Certainly,

> this

> > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the

> sciences

> > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > >

> > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

> synthesis

> > of

> > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time

> that

> > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane

> > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.

> > > >

> > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives

and

> > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born,

> timing

> > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > > Coronations

> > > > etc.

> > > >

> > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended

> upon

> > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > >

> > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were

> > > written

> > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were

many

> > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It

is

> Sage

> > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the

> samhitas

> > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules

of

> > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > >

> > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already

born

> and

> > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.

> > > >

> > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by

> several

> > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur

(and

> the

> > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected

with

> > > more

> > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > >

> > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as

given

> > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they have

> taken

> > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the

> beginning

> > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > >

> > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > >

> > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Kishore ji,

You haven't answered my doubts.

===>

Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with

their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as

the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited their

imagination.

<==

It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. That is the

only difference.

 

==>

The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's story

based on the literary sources.

<==

Yap. you are agreeing with it!

Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that matters and not

the made-up stories!

 

==>

While westerners also have used these sources, they have depended

heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow galore

in apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists have

depended more on the puranic sources as well as the classic works

such as those of Kalidasa and canakya.

<==

It is all the same - now we are trying to totally denay the

contributions of Jin and Buddhist school, a torture started centuries

ago and made perfect by Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and Jin

texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild Interpretations " of Vedic

literature, it is the same - THEY ARE ALL SECONDORY EVIDANCES, IN THE

STRICT VIEW OF THE HISTORY, THAT SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO SUBSTANTIATE

THE AVAILABLE PRIMARY EVIDANCES. Now everybody is violating this

rule!

Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary

evidences but only in story making! People who are not interested in

archeological, linguistic, rock inscriptions and other primary

evidences are making stories purely based on " popular " ancient

literature, there also not even trying to directly study the

available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there

statements about literary history! This is the problem I was trying

to present.

 

P.S. : Look at the difference between the " popular " belief about the

literary history of astrology, and the history of astrology as per

literary evidence, which I have described earlier based on Schools of

astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a common problem?

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " kishore mohan "

<kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

>

> dear shreenadh,

>

> Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal hold

> that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of Indians,

> the nationalists beg to differ.

>

> As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for 1500

> years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans have

> landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true that

the

> civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings looking

> like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that the

> civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same

being

> by Aryans.

>

> More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have

never

> bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city, thus,

> making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

>

> The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two counts:

>

> First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither

could

> believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have such

a

> hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as much

as

> they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the Indians

> by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

>

> The second problem that they have encountered is the christian

> belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000 years

or

> so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into this

> limited period of known world.

>

> Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would make

> Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the world

and

> apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch

> theories were floated in case of Indian past.

>

>

> Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as

> the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited their

> imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the

> scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude to

> recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians were

not

> much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by westeners,

> we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly anyone

to

> protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian history

>

> Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages, before

> the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves during

> the late 80's.

>

> The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

story

> based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used these

> sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> versions , which were somehow galore in apparent contradictions.

> On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the puranic

> sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa and

> canakya.

>

> Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta maurya at

> 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being in

> 327 bce.

>

> While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a

fool

> proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a day is

> not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

>

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Kishore patnaik

>

>

> , sree nadh

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > My doubt is:

> > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least 2000

> years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more

> years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew

> Sanskrit.

> > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-

> Saraswaty language.

> > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language (since

> being ancient?)

> > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara

> chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization

> seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical period,

> even at the time of Mouryas.

> > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that Sindhu-

> Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to dying

> up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> >

> > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian

> chronology I

> > follow is not that one which has been given by the Britishers!!!!

> >

> > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken

> place

> > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my message

> > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> >

> > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

> > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED that

> the

> > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

> > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took

> place

> > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- with

> say,

> > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between each

> > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never

> asked

> > the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we

> can

> > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree that

> it

> > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally

> agreed)

> > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to be

> > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a mega

> > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> >

> > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that Indus

> > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But

> > again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded

> > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be a

> > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not

> > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might

> have

> > slightly predated MB.

> >

> > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> >

> > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is

not

> a

> > single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed true

> > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> >

> > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken

> > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the

lineage

> > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the

> dating

> > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> >

> > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not convinced

> of

> > any these arguements.

> >

> > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I

have

> > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one iota

of

> > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners) chronology,

> > either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, you

> > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a big

> > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof or

> > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> >

> > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> >

> > , sree nadh

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > ==>

> > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> talked

> > in

> > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> > > mahabharat times.

> > > <==

> > > From where you got this maths?

> > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > > Any supporting evidence?

> > >

> > > ==>

> > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam

> > age,

> > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> later

> > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > <==

> > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

> > That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the

> fact

> > that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

> > otherwise)!

> > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was

> > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

> > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!

> > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who

> > lived after!

> > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting " indus

> > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > >

> > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > Dear sreenadh,

> > >

> > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am

> > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

> > entirely

> > > different.

> > >

> > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra

has

> > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has

> > tried

> > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also

called

> > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> sachidevi's

> > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a

> > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later

> stories

> > > always described the people from same families(belonging to

> these

> > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the

> > story

> > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a

> > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father

> who

> > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an

> > asura.

> > >

> > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

> > brahmins

> > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > >

> > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the

> > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha

> means

> > the

> > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this

> > society

> > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to

> create

> > a

> > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > >

> > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra

> > turned

> > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of

panis

> > from

> > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society

> > indra

> > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are

> > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > >

> > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and

> good

> > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The

> > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of

> the

> > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > >

> > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic

> times,

> > the

> > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic

> > > events.

> > >

> > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture

> has

> > set

> > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the

> > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools

> to

> > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what

kind

> > of

> > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment

> in

> > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started fixing

> > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> > >

> > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the

> > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly

started

> > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the

> > Ramayan

> > > times.

> > >

> > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> talked

> > in

> > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> > > mahabharat times.

> > >

> > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam

> > age,

> > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> later

> > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > >

> > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND

> > WHAT

> > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > >

> > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , sree nadh

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous

> > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the following

> > > reasons -

> > > >

> > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > Vedas,

> > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and

> > Tropical

> > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The

system

> > we

> > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants

of

> > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept

> of

> > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with

> Prana

> > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is

> well

> > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya

samajam,

> > and

> > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that

says

> > the

> > > same as well.

> > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

> > of

> > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single

good

> > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the

> > Vedic

> > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika

> > (divine-

> > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc

> > concept

> > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single

> > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

> statement

> > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e.

6

> > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and

Laws

> > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > interpretation

> > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the

> > Sayana

> > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of

> > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to

> uphold

> > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by Sayana

> as

> > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as

> well!

> > If

> > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at

> > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text.

> > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> > first

> > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking

> about

> > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

> > Sidereal

> > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge

branches.

> > The

> > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.

> > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If

> > people

> > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather

> related

> > to

> > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and

> > non-

> > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your

answer?

> > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence

for

> a

> > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate

> vedic

> > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings,

> > places

> > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the

> ruins

> > of

> > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on

> > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by the

> > Sidhu-

> > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of

> > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found

> > city

> > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or

> > prior

> > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is

> there

> > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

> > culture?

> > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already

> put

> > us

> > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)

> > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > architecture,

> > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

> > Sankham

> > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy

> and

> > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

> understand

> > > that –

> > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> > (?)

> > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even though

> > much

> > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > scientifically

> > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> > but

> > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient

> > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English

> > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> > or

> > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even

> > though

> > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some

> half

> > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > thought

> > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and

> > they

> > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or

> > Vedic.

> > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place

in

> > the

> > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or

> vastu

> > or

> > > any other subject.

> > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

> > in

> > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> > mathematics,

> > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by

> > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation

of

> > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc)

> > even

> > > today?

> > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > Saraswathy

> > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization

is

> > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols

> > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now

> there

> > is

> > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> characteristics

> > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such

> language

> > I

> > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an

> > expert

> > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the

> > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to

English

> > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when

> > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of

> > Sidhu-

> > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit

it

> > is

> > > used in plenty?

> > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

> > vedic

> > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion),

> and

> > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the

knowledge

> > base

> > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even

> merge

> > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists

> > today

> > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

> culture!

> > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to

> > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took

> > place,

> > > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged

> into

> > it!

> > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it

is

> a

> > > fact, we can find!

> > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

> > better

> > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

> > stories

> > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive

> > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning

and

> > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making

> > should

> > > be avoided.

> > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we

> > > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The

> > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for

> long,

> > and

> > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of

> > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post

> > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or

> how

> > to

> > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

> evidences,

> > or

> > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject!

> > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > >

> > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> > supporter

> > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that

I

> > am a

> > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

> available

> > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a

> person

> > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > > >

> > > > K

> > > >

> > > > , sree nadh

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that

> astrology

> > > > originated in that period or that that planetory position was

> > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !

> > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > ==>

> > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

> > much

> > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > <==

> > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that

> > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC

5400,

> > and I

> > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> Moolatrikona

> > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

> > research.

> > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any

> > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I

> have

> > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to

> > read

> > > it

> > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > >

> > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual

and

> > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most

> > > ridiculous

> > > > > and gross.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

> much

> > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the

> > > Vedang.

> > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the

> > vedic

> > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this

> society

> > and

> > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing

> > people

> > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by

> > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > >

> > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these

> people

> > are

> > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as

> > > protecting

> > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the

concept

> of

> > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > >

> > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these

> people

> > are

> > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non

> > existent

> > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

systematic

> > way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during

> the

> > time

> > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice

> and

> > > > ruler

> > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that

> took

> > > > place

> > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people

> who

> > are

> > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the

> > hands of

> > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

> > RgVeda,

> > > The

> > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > > > development

> > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system.

> The

> > > same

> > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King

> > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > >

> > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came

> > along

> > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

> Certainly,

> > this

> > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the

> > sciences

> > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > >

> > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

> > synthesis

> > > of

> > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this

time

> > that

> > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of

mundane

> > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.

> > > > >

> > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives

> and

> > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was born,

> > timing

> > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > > > Coronations

> > > > > etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended

> > upon

> > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were

> > > > written

> > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were

> many

> > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It

> is

> > Sage

> > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the

> > samhitas

> > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of

rules

> of

> > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already

> born

> > and

> > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by

> > several

> > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur

> (and

> > the

> > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected

> with

> > > > more

> > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as

> given

> > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they

have

> > taken

> > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the

> > beginning

> > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

||Jai Ramakrishna||

Dear Learned Members,

I have articles on the latest researches done over there...If

anybody is interested..I can post them.

Thanq,

Wish u all success,

With humbleness,

 

 

 

 

 

, " kishore mohan "

<kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

>

> dear shreenadh,

>

> Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal hold

> that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of

Indians,

> the nationalists beg to differ.

>

> As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for

1500

> years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans have

> landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true that

the

> civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings looking

> like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that the

> civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same

being

> by Aryans.

>

> More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have

never

> bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city, thus,

> making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

>

> The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two counts:

>

> First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither

could

> believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have such

a

> hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as much

as

> they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the Indians

> by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

>

> The second problem that they have encountered is the christian

> belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000 years

or

> so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into

this

> limited period of known world.

>

> Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would make

> Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the world

and

> apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch

> theories were floated in case of Indian past.

>

>

> Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as

> the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited their

> imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the

> scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude to

> recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians were

not

> much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

westeners,

> we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly anyone

to

> protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian history

>

> Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages, before

> the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves

during

> the late 80's.

>

> The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

story

> based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used

these

> sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> versions , which were somehow galore in apparent contradictions.

> On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the puranic

> sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa and

> canakya.

>

> Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta maurya

at

> 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being in

> 327 bce.

>

> While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a

fool

> proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a day

is

> not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

>

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Kishore patnaik

>

>

> , sree nadh

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > My doubt is:

> > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least 2000

> years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more

> years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew

> Sanskrit.

> > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-

> Saraswaty language.

> > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language (since

> being ancient?)

> > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara

> chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization

> seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical period,

> even at the time of Mouryas.

> > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that Sindhu-

> Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to

dying

> up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> >

> > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian

> chronology I

> > follow is not that one which has been given by the Britishers!!!!

> >

> > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken

> place

> > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my

message

> > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> >

> > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

> > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED that

> the

> > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

> > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took

> place

> > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- with

> say,

> > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between

each

> > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never

> asked

> > the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we

> can

> > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree

that

> it

> > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally

> agreed)

> > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to

be

> > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a

mega

> > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> >

> > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that

Indus

> > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But

> > again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded

> > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be a

> > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not

> > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might

> have

> > slightly predated MB.

> >

> > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> >

> > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is

not

> a

> > single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed true

> > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> >

> > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken

> > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the

lineage

> > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the

> dating

> > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> >

> > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

convinced

> of

> > any these arguements.

> >

> > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I

have

> > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one iota

of

> > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners) chronology,

> > either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, you

> > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a

big

> > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof or

> > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> >

> > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> >

> > , sree nadh

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > ==>

> > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> talked

> > in

> > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> > > mahabharat times.

> > > <==

> > > From where you got this maths?

> > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > > Any supporting evidence?

> > >

> > > ==>

> > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

sangam

> > age,

> > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> later

> > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > <==

> > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

> > That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the

> fact

> > that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

> > otherwise)!

> > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was

> > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

> > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!

> > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who

> > lived after!

> > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting " indus

> > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > >

> > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > Dear sreenadh,

> > >

> > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am

> > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

> > entirely

> > > different.

> > >

> > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra

has

> > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has

> > tried

> > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also

called

> > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> sachidevi's

> > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a

> > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later

> stories

> > > always described the people from same families(belonging to

> these

> > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the

> > story

> > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a

> > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father

> who

> > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an

> > asura.

> > >

> > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

> > brahmins

> > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > >

> > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and

the

> > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha

> means

> > the

> > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this

> > society

> > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to

> create

> > a

> > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > >

> > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra

> > turned

> > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of

panis

> > from

> > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society

> > indra

> > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who

are

> > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > >

> > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and

> good

> > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today. The

> > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of

> the

> > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > >

> > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic

> times,

> > the

> > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic

> > > events.

> > >

> > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture

> has

> > set

> > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the

> > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the

tools

> to

> > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what

kind

> > of

> > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment

> in

> > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started fixing

> > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> > >

> > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the

> > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly

started

> > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the

> > Ramayan

> > > times.

> > >

> > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> talked

> > in

> > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through

> > > mahabharat times.

> > >

> > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

sangam

> > age,

> > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> later

> > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > >

> > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING

AND

> > WHAT

> > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > >

> > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , sree nadh

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous

> > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the

following

> > > reasons -

> > > >

> > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > Vedas,

> > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and

> > Tropical

> > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The

system

> > we

> > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants

of

> > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the

concept

> of

> > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with

> Prana

> > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is

> well

> > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya

samajam,

> > and

> > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that

says

> > the

> > > same as well.

> > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

> > of

> > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single

good

> > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the

> > Vedic

> > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika

> > (divine-

> > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc

> > concept

> > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single

> > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

> statement

> > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e.

6

> > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and

Laws

> > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > interpretation

> > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the

> > Sayana

> > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of

> > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to

> uphold

> > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by Sayana

> as

> > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as

> well!

> > If

> > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at

> > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text.

> > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> > first

> > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking

> about

> > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

> > Sidereal

> > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge

branches.

> > The

> > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.

> > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If

> > people

> > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather

> related

> > to

> > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic

and

> > non-

> > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your

answer?

> > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence

for

> a

> > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate

> vedic

> > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings,

> > places

> > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the

> ruins

> > of

> > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending

on

> > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by the

> > Sidhu-

> > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of

> > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found

> > city

> > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or

> > prior

> > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is

> there

> > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

> > culture?

> > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already

> put

> > us

> > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)

> > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > architecture,

> > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

> > Sankham

> > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy

> and

> > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

> understand

> > > that –

> > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> > (?)

> > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even

though

> > much

> > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > scientifically

> > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> > but

> > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient

> > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English

> > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> > or

> > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even

> > though

> > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some

> half

> > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > thought

> > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected,

and

> > they

> > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or

> > Vedic.

> > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place

in

> > the

> > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or

> vastu

> > or

> > > any other subject.

> > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

> > in

> > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> > mathematics,

> > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by

> > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation

of

> > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots

etc)

> > even

> > > today?

> > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > Saraswathy

> > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization

is

> > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas (symols

> > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now

> there

> > is

> > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> characteristics

> > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such

> language

> > I

> > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an

> > expert

> > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the

> > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to

English

> > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when

> > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of

> > Sidhu-

> > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit

it

> > is

> > > used in plenty?

> > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

> > vedic

> > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion),

> and

> > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the

knowledge

> > base

> > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even

> merge

> > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists

> > today

> > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

> culture!

> > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to

> > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took

> > place,

> > > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged

> into

> > it!

> > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it

is

> a

> > > fact, we can find!

> > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

> > better

> > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

> > stories

> > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive

> > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning

and

> > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making

> > should

> > > be avoided.

> > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we

> > > know, rather than start doing story making for history. The

> > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for

> long,

> > and

> > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study

of

> > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History

post

> > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or

> how

> > to

> > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

> evidences,

> > or

> > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject!

> > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > >

> > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> > supporter

> > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that

I

> > am a

> > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

> available

> > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a

> person

> > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > > >

> > > > K

> > > >

> > > > , sree nadh

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that

> astrology

> > > > originated in that period or that that planetory position was

> > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !

> > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > ==>

> > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

times

> > much

> > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > <==

> > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know

that

> > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC

5400,

> > and I

> > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> Moolatrikona

> > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

> > research.

> > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any

> > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I

> have

> > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even

to

> > read

> > > it

> > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > >

> > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual

and

> > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most

> > > ridiculous

> > > > > and gross.

> > > > >

> > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

> much

> > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish,

the

> > > Vedang.

> > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing the

> > vedic

> > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this

> society

> > and

> > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing

> > people

> > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped

by

> > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > >

> > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these

> people

> > are

> > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as

> > > protecting

> > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the

concept

> of

> > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > >

> > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these

> people

> > are

> > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non

> > existent

> > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

systematic

> > way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during

> the

> > time

> > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice

> and

> > > > ruler

> > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that

> took

> > > > place

> > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people

> who

> > are

> > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the

> > hands of

> > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

> > RgVeda,

> > > The

> > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > > > development

> > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste system.

> The

> > > same

> > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King

> > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > >

> > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came

> > along

> > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

> Certainly,

> > this

> > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the

> > sciences

> > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > >

> > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

> > synthesis

> > > of

> > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this

time

> > that

> > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of

mundane

> > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.

> > > > >

> > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives

> and

> > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was

born,

> > timing

> > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > > > Coronations

> > > > > etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more

depended

> > upon

> > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books

were

> > > > written

> > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were

> many

> > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It

> is

> > Sage

> > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the

> > samhitas

> > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of

rules

> of

> > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already

> born

> > and

> > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by

> > several

> > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur

> (and

> > the

> > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected

> with

> > > > more

> > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as

> given

> > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they

have

> > taken

> > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the

> > beginning

> > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Gaurav ji,

Please post those articles.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " "

<gg_0202 wrote:

>

> ||Jai Ramakrishna||

> Dear Learned Members,

> I have articles on the latest researches done over there...If

> anybody is interested..I can post them.

> Thanq,

> Wish u all success,

> With humbleness,

>

>

>

>

>

> , " kishore mohan "

> <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> > dear shreenadh,

> >

> > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> > historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal

hold

> > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of

> Indians,

> > the nationalists beg to differ.

> >

> > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for

> 1500

> > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans have

> > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true that

> the

> > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings looking

> > like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that the

> > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same

> being

> > by Aryans.

> >

> > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have

> never

> > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city,

thus,

> > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

> >

> > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two

counts:

> >

> > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither

> could

> > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have

such

> a

> > hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as much

> as

> > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the

Indians

> > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

> >

> > The second problem that they have encountered is the christian

> > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000 years

> or

> > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into

> this

> > limited period of known world.

> >

> > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would

make

> > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the world

> and

> > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch

> > theories were floated in case of Indian past.

> >

> >

> > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such

as

> > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

their

> > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the

> > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude to

> > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians were

> not

> > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

> westeners,

> > we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly anyone

> to

> > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian history

> >

> > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages, before

> > the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves

> during

> > the late 80's.

> >

> > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

> story

> > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used

> these

> > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent contradictions.

> > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the puranic

> > sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa

and

> > canakya.

> >

> > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta maurya

> at

> > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being

in

> > 327 bce.

> >

> > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a

> fool

> > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a day

> is

> > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

> >

> >

> > Hope this helps,

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> >

> >

> > , sree nadh

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > My doubt is:

> > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least 2000

> > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more

> > years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew

> > Sanskrit.

> > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-

> > Saraswaty language.

> > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language (since

> > being ancient?)

> > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara

> > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty

civilization

> > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical

period,

> > even at the time of Mouryas.

> > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that Sindhu-

> > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to

> dying

> > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > >

> > > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian

> > chronology I

> > > follow is not that one which has been given by the

Britishers!!!!

> > >

> > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken

> > place

> > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my

> message

> > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> > >

> > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

> > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED that

> > the

> > > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

> > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took

> > place

> > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- with

> > say,

> > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between

> each

> > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never

> > asked

> > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we

> > can

> > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree

> that

> > it

> > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally

> > agreed)

> > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to

> be

> > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a

> mega

> > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> > >

> > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that

> Indus

> > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But

> > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded

> > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be

a

> > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not

> > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might

> > have

> > > slightly predated MB.

> > >

> > > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> > >

> > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is

> not

> > a

> > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed

true

> > > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> > >

> > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken

> > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the

> lineage

> > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the

> > dating

> > > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> > >

> > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

> convinced

> > of

> > > any these arguements.

> > >

> > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I

> have

> > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one iota

> of

> > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners)

chronology,

> > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, you

> > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a

> big

> > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof or

> > > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> > >

> > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > > , sree nadh

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > ==>

> > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> > talked

> > > in

> > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

through

> > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > <==

> > > > From where you got this maths?

> > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > > > Any supporting evidence?

> > > >

> > > > ==>

> > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

> sangam

> > > age,

> > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> > later

> > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > <==

> > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

> > > That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the

> > fact

> > > that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

> > > otherwise)!

> > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period

was

> > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

> > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!

> > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those

who

> > > lived after!

> > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting " indus

> > > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > > Dear sreenadh,

> > > >

> > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I

am

> > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

> > > entirely

> > > > different.

> > > >

> > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra

> has

> > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he

has

> > > tried

> > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also

> called

> > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> > sachidevi's

> > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as

a

> > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later

> > stories

> > > > always described the people from same families(belonging to

> > these

> > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the

> > > story

> > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is

a

> > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her

father

> > who

> > > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an

> > > asura.

> > > >

> > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

> > > brahmins

> > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > > >

> > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and

> the

> > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha

> > means

> > > the

> > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this

> > > society

> > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to

> > create

> > > a

> > > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > > >

> > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra

> > > turned

> > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of

> panis

> > > from

> > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the

society

> > > indra

> > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who

> are

> > > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > > >

> > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and

> > good

> > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today.

The

> > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most

of

> > the

> > > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > > >

> > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic

> > times,

> > > the

> > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of

ritualistic

> > > > events.

> > > >

> > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture

> > has

> > > set

> > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the

> > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the

> tools

> > to

> > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what

> kind

> > > of

> > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the

moment

> > in

> > > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started

fixing

> > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> > > >

> > > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the

> > > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly

> started

> > > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to the

> > > Ramayan

> > > > times.

> > > >

> > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes

> > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> > talked

> > > in

> > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

through

> > > > mahabharat times.

> > > >

> > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

> sangam

> > > age,

> > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> > later

> > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > >

> > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING

> AND

> > > WHAT

> > > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > > >

> > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > > >

> > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , sree nadh

> > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous

> > > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the

> following

> > > > reasons -

> > > > >

> > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > > Vedas,

> > > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and

> > > Tropical

> > > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The

> system

> > > we

> > > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants

> of

> > > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the

> concept

> > of

> > > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with

> > Prana

> > > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> > > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is

> > well

> > > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya

> samajam,

> > > and

> > > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that

> says

> > > the

> > > > same as well.

> > > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

> > > of

> > > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single

> good

> > > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the

> > > Vedic

> > > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika

> > > (divine-

> > > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc

> > > concept

> > > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single

> > > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

> > statement

> > > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas -

i.e.

> 6

> > > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and

> Laws

> > > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> > > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > > interpretation

> > > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the

> > > Sayana

> > > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning

of

> > > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to

> > uphold

> > > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by

Sayana

> > as

> > > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as

> > well!

> > > If

> > > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at

> > > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that

text.

> > > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> > > first

> > > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking

> > about

> > > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

> > > Sidereal

> > > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> > > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge

> branches.

> > > The

> > > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.

> > > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If

> > > people

> > > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather

> > related

> > > to

> > > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic

> and

> > > non-

> > > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your

> answer?

> > > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence

> for

> > a

> > > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate

> > vedic

> > > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings,

> > > places

> > > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the

> > ruins

> > > of

> > > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> > > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending

> on

> > > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by

the

> > > Sidhu-

> > > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of

> > > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly

found

> > > city

> > > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period

or

> > > prior

> > > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is

> > there

> > > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

> > > culture?

> > > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had

already

> > put

> > > us

> > > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological

proof!)

> > > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > > architecture,

> > > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

> > > Sankham

> > > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy

> > and

> > > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

> > understand

> > > > that –

> > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> > > (?)

> > > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even

> though

> > > much

> > > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > > scientifically

> > > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> > > but

> > > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of

ancient

> > > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English

> > > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> > > or

> > > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods,

even

> > > though

> > > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some

> > half

> > > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > > thought

> > > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected,

> and

> > > they

> > > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or

> > > Vedic.

> > > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> > > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place

> in

> > > the

> > > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or

> > vastu

> > > or

> > > > any other subject.

> > > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

> > > in

> > > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> > > mathematics,

> > > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told

by

> > > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation

> of

> > > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots

> etc)

> > > even

> > > > today?

> > > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > > Saraswathy

> > > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization

> is

> > > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas

(symols

> > > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now

> > there

> > > is

> > > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> > characteristics

> > > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such

> > language

> > > I

> > > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an

> > > expert

> > > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the

> > > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to

> English

> > > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know,

when

> > > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language

of

> > > Sidhu-

> > > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit

> it

> > > is

> > > > used in plenty?

> > > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

> > > vedic

> > > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular

religion),

> > and

> > > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the

> knowledge

> > > base

> > > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even

> > merge

> > > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists

> > > today

> > > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

> > culture!

> > > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to

> > > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing

took

> > > place,

> > > > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged

> > into

> > > it!

> > > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it

> is

> > a

> > > > fact, we can find!

> > > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

> > > better

> > > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

> > > stories

> > > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> > > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive

> > > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning

> and

> > > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making

> > > should

> > > > be avoided.

> > > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject we

> > > > know, rather than start doing story making for history.

The

> > > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for

> > long,

> > > and

> > > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study

> of

> > > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History

> post

> > > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or

> > how

> > > to

> > > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

> > evidences,

> > > or

> > > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own

subject!

> > > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > > >

> > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> > > supporter

> > > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact

that

> I

> > > am a

> > > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

> > available

> > > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a

> > person

> > > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > > > >

> > > > > K

> > > > >

> > > > > , sree nadh

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that

> > astrology

> > > > > originated in that period or that that planetory position

was

> > > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !

> > > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

> times

> > > much

> > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > <==

> > > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know

> that

> > > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC

> 5400,

> > > and I

> > > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> > Moolatrikona

> > > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

> > > research.

> > > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has

any

> > > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I

> > have

> > > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even

> to

> > > read

> > > > it

> > > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual

> and

> > > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most

> > > > ridiculous

> > > > > > and gross.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times

> > much

> > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish,

> the

> > > > Vedang.

> > > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing

the

> > > vedic

> > > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this

> > society

> > > and

> > > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow

rearing

> > > people

> > > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped

> by

> > > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these

> > people

> > > are

> > > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as

> > > > protecting

> > > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the

> concept

> > of

> > > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these

> > people

> > > are

> > > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non

> > > existent

> > > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

> systematic

> > > way.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during

> > the

> > > time

> > > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of

rice

> > and

> > > > > ruler

> > > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that

> > took

> > > > > place

> > > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the

people

> > who

> > > are

> > > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the

> > > hands of

> > > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

> > > RgVeda,

> > > > The

> > > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > > > > development

> > > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste

system.

> > The

> > > > same

> > > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King

> > > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who

came

> > > along

> > > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

> > Certainly,

> > > this

> > > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the

> > > sciences

> > > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

> > > synthesis

> > > > of

> > > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this

> time

> > > that

> > > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of

> mundane

> > > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily

lives

> > and

> > > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was

> born,

> > > timing

> > > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > > > > Coronations

> > > > > > etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more

> depended

> > > upon

> > > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books

> were

> > > > > written

> > > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there

were

> > many

> > > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts.

It

> > is

> > > Sage

> > > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the

> > > samhitas

> > > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of

> rules

> > of

> > > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already

> > born

> > > and

> > > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by

> > > several

> > > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur

> > (and

> > > the

> > > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is

connected

> > with

> > > > > more

> > > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as

> > given

> > > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they

> have

> > > taken

> > > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the

> > > beginning

> > > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear shreenadh,

 

YOur apprehensions are right. But do you know that most of the

ancient history of the world is written on the basis of the literary

texts?

 

If puranas are wrong, how could it be that Jataka tales can be right?

 

There is a peculiar position. For eg., Asoka has inscripted so many

rock edicts but he is not really popular in the literature. In

certain places, he has described as a villain etc.

 

Romesh Thapar has specifically written a book on Asoka and as usual,

it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have told

you so "

 

The searching for solid history in India is at minimal and even what

has been available, is not fully documented or researched.

 

Another problem we face is the problem of borders. We share our past

with our neighbours but they have no respect for that past because

both Pakistan and Bangladesh believe that all History prior to

Moslem sultans is trash.

 

Anyway, I hope to resolve some of your doubts in next posts.

 

 

Kishore patnaik

 

 

 

-- In , " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kishore ji,

> You haven't answered my doubts.

> ===>

> Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with

> their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as

> the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited their

> imagination.

> <==

> It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. That is

the

> only difference.

>

> ==>

> The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

story

> based on the literary sources.

> <==

> Yap. you are agreeing with it!

> Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that matters and

not

> the made-up stories!

>

> ==>

> While westerners also have used these sources, they have depended

> heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow

galore

> in apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists have

> depended more on the puranic sources as well as the classic works

> such as those of Kalidasa and canakya.

> <==

> It is all the same - now we are trying to totally denay the

> contributions of Jin and Buddhist school, a torture started

centuries

> ago and made perfect by Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and Jin

> texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild Interpretations " of Vedic

> literature, it is the same - THEY ARE ALL SECONDORY EVIDANCES, IN

THE

> STRICT VIEW OF THE HISTORY, THAT SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO

SUBSTANTIATE

> THE AVAILABLE PRIMARY EVIDANCES. Now everybody is violating this

> rule!

> Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary

> evidences but only in story making! People who are not interested

in

> archeological, linguistic, rock inscriptions and other primary

> evidences are making stories purely based on " popular " ancient

> literature, there also not even trying to directly study the

> available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there

> statements about literary history! This is the problem I was

trying

> to present.

>

> P.S. : Look at the difference between the " popular " belief about

the

> literary history of astrology, and the history of astrology as per

> literary evidence, which I have described earlier based on Schools

of

> astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a common problem?

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " kishore mohan "

> <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> > dear shreenadh,

> >

> > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> > historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal

hold

> > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of

Indians,

> > the nationalists beg to differ.

> >

> > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for

1500

> > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans

have

> > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true that

> the

> > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings

looking

> > like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that the

> > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same

> being

> > by Aryans.

> >

> > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have

> never

> > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city,

thus,

> > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

> >

> > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two

counts:

> >

> > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither

> could

> > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have

such

> a

> > hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as

much

> as

> > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the

Indians

> > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

> >

> > The second problem that they have encountered is the christian

> > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000

years

> or

> > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into

this

> > limited period of known world.

> >

> > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would

make

> > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the world

> and

> > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch

> > theories were floated in case of Indian past.

> >

> >

> > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such

as

> > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

their

> > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the

> > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude

to

> > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians were

> not

> > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

westeners,

> > we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly

anyone

> to

> > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian history

> >

> > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages,

before

> > the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves

during

> > the late 80's.

> >

> > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

> story

> > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used

these

> > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent

contradictions.

> > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the

puranic

> > sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa

and

> > canakya.

> >

> > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta maurya

at

> > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being

in

> > 327 bce.

> >

> > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a

> fool

> > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a day

is

> > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

> >

> >

> > Hope this helps,

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> >

> >

> > , sree nadh

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > My doubt is:

> > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least

2000

> > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more

> > years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew

> > Sanskrit.

> > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-

> > Saraswaty language.

> > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language

(since

> > being ancient?)

> > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara

> > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty

civilization

> > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical

period,

> > even at the time of Mouryas.

> > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that

Sindhu-

> > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to

dying

> > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > >

> > > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian

> > chronology I

> > > follow is not that one which has been given by the

Britishers!!!!

> > >

> > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken

> > place

> > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my

message

> > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> > >

> > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

> > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED

that

> > the

> > > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

> > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took

> > place

> > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that-

with

> > say,

> > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between

each

> > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never

> > asked

> > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus,

we

> > can

> > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree

that

> > it

> > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally

> > agreed)

> > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it to

be

> > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a

mega

> > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> > >

> > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that

Indus

> > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But

> > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically concluded

> > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to be

a

> > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not

> > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation

might

> > have

> > > slightly predated MB.

> > >

> > > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> > >

> > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is

> not

> > a

> > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed

true

> > > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> > >

> > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have

taken

> > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the

> lineage

> > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the

> > dating

> > > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> > >

> > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

convinced

> > of

> > > any these arguements.

> > >

> > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I

> have

> > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one

iota

> of

> > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners)

chronology,

> > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well,

you

> > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a

big

> > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof

or

> > > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> > >

> > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > > , sree nadh

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > ==>

> > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

precedes

> > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> > talked

> > > in

> > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

through

> > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > <==

> > > > From where you got this maths?

> > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > > > Any supporting evidence?

> > > >

> > > > ==>

> > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

sangam

> > > age,

> > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> > later

> > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > <==

> > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

> > > That argument would really take time to digest, also due to

the

> > fact

> > > that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

> > > otherwise)!

> > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period

was

> > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

> > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!!

> > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those

who

> > > lived after!

> > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting " indus

> > > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > > Dear sreenadh,

> > > >

> > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I

am

> > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

> > > entirely

> > > > different.

> > > >

> > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra

> has

> > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he

has

> > > tried

> > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also

> called

> > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> > sachidevi's

> > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as

a

> > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later

> > stories

> > > > always described the people from same families(belonging to

> > these

> > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether

the

> > > story

> > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is

a

> > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her

father

> > who

> > > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is

an

> > > asura.

> > > >

> > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

> > > brahmins

> > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > > >

> > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and

the

> > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha

> > means

> > > the

> > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how

this

> > > society

> > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to

> > create

> > > a

> > > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > > >

> > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of

Indra

> > > turned

> > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of

> panis

> > > from

> > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the

society

> > > indra

> > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who

are

> > > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > > >

> > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas

and

> > good

> > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today.

The

> > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most

of

> > the

> > > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > > >

> > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic

> > times,

> > > the

> > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of

ritualistic

> > > > events.

> > > >

> > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the

agriculture

> > has

> > > set

> > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the

> > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the

tools

> > to

> > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what

> kind

> > > of

> > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the

moment

> > in

> > > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started

fixing

> > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> > > >

> > > > With the increase in population and number of trades and the

> > > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly

> started

> > > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to

the

> > > Ramayan

> > > > times.

> > > >

> > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

precedes

> > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> > talked

> > > in

> > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

through

> > > > mahabharat times.

> > > >

> > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

sangam

> > > age,

> > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much

> > later

> > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > >

> > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING

AND

> > > WHAT

> > > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > > >

> > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > > >

> > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , sree nadh

> > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous

> > > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the

following

> > > > reasons -

> > > > >

> > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > > Vedas,

> > > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and

> > > Tropical

> > > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The

> system

> > > we

> > > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the

ruminants

> of

> > > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the

concept

> > of

> > > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with

> > Prana

> > > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> > > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is

> > well

> > > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya

> samajam,

> > > and

> > > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that

> says

> > > the

> > > > same as well.

> > > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

> > > of

> > > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single

> good

> > > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in

the

> > > Vedic

> > > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika

> > > (divine-

> > > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual)

etc

> > > concept

> > > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a

single

> > > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

> > statement

> > > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas -

i.e.

> 6

> > > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and

> Laws

> > > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> > > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > > interpretation

> > > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the

> > > Sayana

> > > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning

of

> > > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to

> > uphold

> > > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by

Sayana

> > as

> > > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as

> > well!

> > > If

> > > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look at

> > > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that

text.

> > > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> > > first

> > > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking

> > about

> > > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

> > > Sidereal

> > > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> > > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge

> branches.

> > > The

> > > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.

> > > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If

> > > people

> > > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather

> > related

> > > to

> > > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic

and

> > > non-

> > > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your

> answer?

> > > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence

> for

> > a

> > > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate

> > vedic

> > > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined

buildings,

> > > places

> > > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the

> > ruins

> > > of

> > > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> > > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending

on

> > > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by

the

> > > Sidhu-

> > > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people of

> > > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly

found

> > > city

> > > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period

or

> > > prior

> > > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is

> > there

> > > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

> > > culture?

> > > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had

already

> > put

> > > us

> > > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological

proof!)

> > > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > > architecture,

> > > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

> > > Sankham

> > > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-

Saraswathy

> > and

> > > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

> > understand

> > > > that –

> > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> > > (?)

> > > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even

though

> > > much

> > > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > > scientifically

> > > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> > > but

> > > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of

ancient

> > > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English

> > > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> > > or

> > > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods,

even

> > > though

> > > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with

some

> > half

> > > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > > thought

> > > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected,

and

> > > they

> > > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or

> > > Vedic.

> > > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> > > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due

place

> in

> > > the

> > > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or

> > vastu

> > > or

> > > > any other subject.

> > > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

> > > in

> > > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> > > mathematics,

> > > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told

by

> > > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous

continuation

> of

> > > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots

etc)

> > > even

> > > > today?

> > > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > > Saraswathy

> > > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy

civilization

> is

> > > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas

(symols

> > > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now

> > there

> > > is

> > > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> > characteristics

> > > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such

> > language

> > > I

> > > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not

an

> > > expert

> > > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related

the

> > > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to

> English

> > > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know,

when

> > > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language

of

> > > Sidhu-

> > > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in

Sanskrit

> it

> > > is

> > > > used in plenty?

> > > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

> > > vedic

> > > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular

religion),

> > and

> > > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the

> knowledge

> > > base

> > > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even

> > merge

> > > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples

exists

> > > today

> > > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

> > culture!

> > > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority to

> > > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing

took

> > > place,

> > > > the original system survived and the vedic system got merged

> > into

> > > it!

> > > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject –

it

> is

> > a

> > > > fact, we can find!

> > > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

> > > better

> > > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

> > > stories

> > > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> > > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an

extensive

> > > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning

> and

> > > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story making

> > > should

> > > > be avoided.

> > > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject

we

> > > > know, rather than start doing story making for history.

The

> > > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for

> > long,

> > > and

> > > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study

of

> > > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History

post

> > > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script,

or

> > how

> > > to

> > > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

> > evidences,

> > > or

> > > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own

subject!

> > > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > > >

> > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> > > supporter

> > > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact

that

> I

> > > am a

> > > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

> > available

> > > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a

> > person

> > > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > > > >

> > > > > K

> > > > >

> > > > > , sree nadh

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that

> > astrology

> > > > > originated in that period or that that planetory position

was

> > > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the

mail !

> > > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

times

> > > much

> > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > <==

> > > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know

that

> > > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC

> 5400,

> > > and I

> > > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> > Moolatrikona

> > > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

> > > research.

> > > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has

any

> > > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too

I

> > have

> > > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even

to

> > > read

> > > > it

> > > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable,

spiritual

> and

> > > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most

> > > > ridiculous

> > > > > > and gross.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

times

> > much

> > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish,

the

> > > > Vedang.

> > > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing

the

> > > vedic

> > > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this

> > society

> > > and

> > > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow

rearing

> > > people

> > > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly

helped by

> > > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these

> > people

> > > are

> > > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as

> > > > protecting

> > > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the

> concept

> > of

> > > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these

> > people

> > > are

> > > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non

> > > existent

> > > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

> systematic

> > > way.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq

during

> > the

> > > time

> > > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of

rice

> > and

> > > > > ruler

> > > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting

that

> > took

> > > > > place

> > > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the

people

> > who

> > > are

> > > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in

the

> > > hands of

> > > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

> > > RgVeda,

> > > > The

> > > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > > > > development

> > > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste

system.

> > The

> > > > same

> > > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the

King

> > > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who

came

> > > along

> > > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

> > Certainly,

> > > this

> > > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the

> > > sciences

> > > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

> > > synthesis

> > > > of

> > > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this

> time

> > > that

> > > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of

> mundane

> > > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily

lives

> > and

> > > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was

born,

> > > timing

> > > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > > > > Coronations

> > > > > > etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more

depended

> > > upon

> > > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books

were

> > > > > written

> > > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there

were

> > many

> > > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts.

It

> > is

> > > Sage

> > > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the

> > > samhitas

> > > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of

> rules

> > of

> > > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was

already

> > born

> > > and

> > > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or

so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by

> > > several

> > > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur

> > (and

> > > the

> > > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is

connected

> > with

> > > > > more

> > > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as

> > given

> > > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they

> have

> > > taken

> > > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the

> > > beginning

> > > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Kishore ji,

I somebody tries to desing history based on statements like -

==>

> it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have

> told you so "

<==

Then how can he be called a true historian?!

 

Do you know there is only very few texts that describes even

the " Outlines of the Subject called History " , i.e. Books that

describe " How to study history " , and the wonderful fact is that even

for Post Graduate Courses on history these basics are not even

touched with! How such people can understand the ancient history?!

This is the scenario! How many true historians we see today, became

historians after learning the history as it is tough now?! Very few!

Why? The people who study history as it is taught now, CAN NOT become

historians! The study method now followed in learning/teaching

history itself is against the true sprit of understanding (doing

research, revealing, and spreading light on the dark areas) of

ancient history!

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " kishore mohan "

<kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

>

>

> Dear shreenadh,

>

> YOur apprehensions are right. But do you know that most of the

> ancient history of the world is written on the basis of the

literary

> texts?

>

> If puranas are wrong, how could it be that Jataka tales can be

right?

>

> There is a peculiar position. For eg., Asoka has inscripted so many

> rock edicts but he is not really popular in the literature. In

> certain places, he has described as a villain etc.

>

> Romesh Thapar has specifically written a book on Asoka and as

usual,

> it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have

told

> you so "

>

> The searching for solid history in India is at minimal and even

what

> has been available, is not fully documented or researched.

>

> Another problem we face is the problem of borders. We share our

past

> with our neighbours but they have no respect for that past because

> both Pakistan and Bangladesh believe that all History prior to

> Moslem sultans is trash.

>

> Anyway, I hope to resolve some of your doubts in next posts.

>

>

> Kishore patnaik

>

>

>

> -- In , " Sreenadh "

> <sreesog@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > You haven't answered my doubts.

> > ===>

> > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with

> > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such

as

> > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

their

> > imagination.

> > <==

> > It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. That is

> the

> > only difference.

> >

> > ==>

> > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

> story

> > based on the literary sources.

> > <==

> > Yap. you are agreeing with it!

> > Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that matters and

> not

> > the made-up stories!

> >

> > ==>

> > While westerners also have used these sources, they have depended

> > heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow

> galore

> > in apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists have

> > depended more on the puranic sources as well as the classic works

> > such as those of Kalidasa and canakya.

> > <==

> > It is all the same - now we are trying to totally denay the

> > contributions of Jin and Buddhist school, a torture started

> centuries

> > ago and made perfect by Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and Jin

> > texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild Interpretations " of Vedic

> > literature, it is the same - THEY ARE ALL SECONDORY EVIDANCES, IN

> THE

> > STRICT VIEW OF THE HISTORY, THAT SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO

> SUBSTANTIATE

> > THE AVAILABLE PRIMARY EVIDANCES. Now everybody is violating this

> > rule!

> > Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary

> > evidences but only in story making! People who are not interested

> in

> > archeological, linguistic, rock inscriptions and other primary

> > evidences are making stories purely based on " popular " ancient

> > literature, there also not even trying to directly study the

> > available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there

> > statements about literary history! This is the problem I was

> trying

> > to present.

> >

> > P.S. : Look at the difference between the " popular " belief about

> the

> > literary history of astrology, and the history of astrology as

per

> > literary evidence, which I have described earlier based on

Schools

> of

> > astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a common problem?

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " kishore mohan "

> > <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > >

> > > dear shreenadh,

> > >

> > > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> > > historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal

> hold

> > > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of

> Indians,

> > > the nationalists beg to differ.

> > >

> > > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for

> 1500

> > > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans

> have

> > > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true

that

> > the

> > > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings

> looking

> > > like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that

the

> > > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same

> > being

> > > by Aryans.

> > >

> > > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have

> > never

> > > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city,

> thus,

> > > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

> > >

> > > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two

> counts:

> > >

> > > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither

> > could

> > > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have

> such

> > a

> > > hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as

> much

> > as

> > > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the

> Indians

> > > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

> > >

> > > The second problem that they have encountered is the christian

> > > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000

> years

> > or

> > > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into

> this

> > > limited period of known world.

> > >

> > > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would

> make

> > > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the

world

> > and

> > > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch

> > > theories were floated in case of Indian past.

> > >

> > >

> > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> > > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such

> as

> > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

> their

> > > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> > > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the

> > > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude

> to

> > > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians

were

> > not

> > > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

> westeners,

> > > we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly

> anyone

> > to

> > > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian

history

> > >

> > > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages,

> before

> > > the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves

> during

> > > the late 80's.

> > >

> > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded

> > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

> > story

> > > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used

> these

> > > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> > > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent

> contradictions.

> > > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the

> puranic

> > > sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa

> and

> > > canakya.

> > >

> > > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta

maurya

> at

> > > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being

> in

> > > 327 bce.

> > >

> > > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a

> > fool

> > > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a

day

> is

> > > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> > > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hope this helps,

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > >

> > > , sree nadh

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > My doubt is:

> > > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least

> 2000

> > > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or

more

> > > years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew

> > > Sanskrit.

> > > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-

> > > Saraswaty language.

> > > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language

> (since

> > > being ancient?)

> > > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara

> > > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty

> civilization

> > > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical

> period,

> > > even at the time of Mouryas.

> > > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that

> Sindhu-

> > > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to

> dying

> > > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian

> > > chronology I

> > > > follow is not that one which has been given by the

> Britishers!!!!

> > > >

> > > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken

> > > place

> > > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my

> message

> > > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> > > >

> > > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without

> > > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED

> that

> > > the

> > > > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western

> > > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took

> > > place

> > > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that-

> with

> > > say,

> > > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between

> each

> > > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never

> > > asked

> > > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus,

> we

> > > can

> > > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree

> that

> > > it

> > > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and universally

> > > agreed)

> > > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it

to

> be

> > > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a

> mega

> > > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> > > >

> > > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that

> Indus

> > > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature.

But

> > > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically

concluded

> > > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to

be

> a

> > > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but

not

> > > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation

> might

> > > have

> > > > slightly predated MB.

> > > >

> > > > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> > > >

> > > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there

is

> > not

> > > a

> > > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed

> true

> > > > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> > > >

> > > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have

> taken

> > > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the

> > lineage

> > > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the

> > > dating

> > > > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> > > >

> > > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

> convinced

> > > of

> > > > any these arguements.

> > > >

> > > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I

> > have

> > > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one

> iota

> > of

> > > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners)

> chronology,

> > > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well,

> you

> > > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a

> big

> > > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof

> or

> > > > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> > > >

> > > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> > > >

> > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > >

> > > > , sree nadh

> > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > ==>

> > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> precedes

> > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> > > talked

> > > > in

> > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

> through

> > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > > <==

> > > > > From where you got this maths?

> > > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > > > > Any supporting evidence?

> > > > >

> > > > > ==>

> > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

> sangam

> > > > age,

> > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to

much

> > > later

> > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > > <==

> > > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!!

> > > > That argument would really take time to digest, also due to

> the

> > > fact

> > > > that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or

> > > > otherwise)!

> > > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period

> was

> > > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

> > > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization

and

> > > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic

period !!!

> > > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those

> who

> > > > lived after!

> > > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously

putting " indus

> > > > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > > > Dear sreenadh,

> > > > >

> > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I

> am

> > > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something

> > > > entirely

> > > > > different.

> > > > >

> > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an

> > > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that

Indra

> > has

> > > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he

> has

> > > > tried

> > > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also

> > called

> > > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> > > sachidevi's

> > > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described

as

> a

> > > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later

> > > stories

> > > > > always described the people from same families(belonging to

> > > these

> > > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether

> the

> > > > story

> > > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra

is

> a

> > > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her

> father

> > > who

> > > > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is

> an

> > > > asura.

> > > > >

> > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as

> > > > brahmins

> > > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > > > >

> > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and

> the

> > > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha

> > > means

> > > > the

> > > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how

> this

> > > > society

> > > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to

> > > create

> > > > a

> > > > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > > > >

> > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of

> Indra

> > > > turned

> > > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of

> > panis

> > > > from

> > > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the

> society

> > > > indra

> > > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who

> are

> > > > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas

> and

> > > good

> > > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today.

> The

> > > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most

> of

> > > the

> > > > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > > > >

> > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic

> > > times,

> > > > the

> > > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of

> ritualistic

> > > > > events.

> > > > >

> > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the

> agriculture

> > > has

> > > > set

> > > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus,

the

> > > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the

> tools

> > > to

> > > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what

> > kind

> > > > of

> > > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the

> moment

> > > in

> > > > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started

> fixing

> > > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> > > > >

> > > > > With the increase in population and number of trades and

the

> > > > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly

> > started

> > > > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior to

> the

> > > > Ramayan

> > > > > times.

> > > > >

> > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> precedes

> > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have

> > > talked

> > > > in

> > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

> through

> > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

> sangam

> > > > age,

> > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to

much

> > > later

> > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > >

> > > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING

> AND

> > > > WHAT

> > > > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > > > >

> > > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , sree nadh

> > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the

previous

> > > > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the

> following

> > > > > reasons -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > > > Vedas,

> > > > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology

and

> > > > Tropical

> > > > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The

> > system

> > > > we

> > > > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the

> ruminants

> > of

> > > > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the

> concept

> > > of

> > > > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with

> > > Prana

> > > > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject

> > > > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It

is

> > > well

> > > > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya

> > samajam,

> > > > and

> > > > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that

> > says

> > > > the

> > > > > same as well.

> > > > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation

> > > > of

> > > > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single

> > good

> > > > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in

> the

> > > > Vedic

> > > > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –

Adhidaivika

> > > > (divine-

> > > > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual)

> etc

> > > > concept

> > > > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a

> single

> > > > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

> > > statement

> > > > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas -

> i.e.

> > 6

> > > > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and

> > Laws

> > > > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar

> > > > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > > > interpretation

> > > > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact

the

> > > > Sayana

> > > > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning

> of

> > > > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried to

> > > uphold

> > > > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by

> Sayana

> > > as

> > > > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as

> > > well!

> > > > If

> > > > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a look

at

> > > > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that

> text.

> > > > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> > > > first

> > > > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is

speaking

> > > about

> > > > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both

> > > > Sidereal

> > > > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they

> > > > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge

> > branches.

> > > > The

> > > > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by

now.

> > > > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > > > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas.

If

> > > > people

> > > > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather

> > > related

> > > > to

> > > > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic

> and

> > > > non-

> > > > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your

> > answer?

> > > > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological

evidence

> > for

> > > a

> > > > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a separate

> > > vedic

> > > > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined

> buildings,

> > > > places

> > > > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the

> > > ruins

> > > > of

> > > > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us

> > > > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or

depending

> on

> > > > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided by

> the

> > > > Sidhu-

> > > > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of people

of

> > > > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly

> found

> > > > city

> > > > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period

> or

> > > > prior

> > > > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then

is

> > > there

> > > > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic

> > > > culture?

> > > > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had

> already

> > > put

> > > > us

> > > > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological

> proof!)

> > > > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > > > architecture,

> > > > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in

> > > > Sankham

> > > > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-

> Saraswathy

> > > and

> > > > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

> > > understand

> > > > > that –

> > > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> > > > (?)

> > > > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even

> though

> > > > much

> > > > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > > > scientifically

> > > > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> > > > but

> > > > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of

> ancient

> > > > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and

English

> > > > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.

> > > > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> > > > or

> > > > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods,

> even

> > > > though

> > > > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with

> some

> > > half

> > > > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > > > thought

> > > > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected,

> and

> > > > they

> > > > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian

or

> > > > Vedic.

> > > > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very

> > > > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due

> place

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or

> > > vastu

> > > > or

> > > > > any other subject.

> > > > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced

> > > > in

> > > > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> > > > mathematics,

> > > > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told

> by

> > > > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous

> continuation

> > of

> > > > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots

> etc)

> > > > even

> > > > > today?

> > > > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > > > Saraswathy

> > > > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy

> civilization

> > is

> > > > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas

> (symols

> > > > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent

now

> > > there

> > > > is

> > > > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> > > characteristics

> > > > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such

> > > language

> > > > I

> > > > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am not

> an

> > > > expert

> > > > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related

> the

> > > > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to

> > English

> > > > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know,

> when

> > > > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language

> of

> > > > Sidhu-

> > > > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in

> Sanskrit

> > it

> > > > is

> > > > > used in plenty?

> > > > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-

> > > > vedic

> > > > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular

> religion),

> > > and

> > > > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the

> > knowledge

> > > > base

> > > > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and

even

> > > merge

> > > > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples

> exists

> > > > today

> > > > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

> > > culture!

> > > > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular majority

to

> > > > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing

> took

> > > > place,

> > > > > the original system survived and the vedic system got

merged

> > > into

> > > > it!

> > > > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject –

> it

> > is

> > > a

> > > > > fact, we can find!

> > > > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is

> > > > better

> > > > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making

> > > > stories

> > > > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is

> > > > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an

> extensive

> > > > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of

learning

> > and

> > > > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story

making

> > > > should

> > > > > be avoided.

> > > > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the subject

> we

> > > > > know, rather than start doing story making for history.

> The

> > > > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for

> > > long,

> > > > and

> > > > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the

study

> of

> > > > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History

> post

> > > > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script,

> or

> > > how

> > > > to

> > > > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

> > > evidences,

> > > > or

> > > > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own

> subject!

> > > > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > > > >

> > > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> > > > supporter

> > > > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact

> that

> > I

> > > > am a

> > > > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

> > > available

> > > > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is a

> > > person

> > > > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > K

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , sree nadh

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued that

> > > astrology

> > > > > > originated in that period or that that planetory position

> was

> > > > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the

> mail !

> > > > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as

> > > > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

> times

> > > > much

> > > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know

> that

> > > > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC

> > 5400,

> > > > and I

> > > > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> > > Moolatrikona

> > > > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of

> > > > research.

> > > > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position has

> any

> > > > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That too

> I

> > > have

> > > > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant,

even

> to

> > > > read

> > > > > it

> > > > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable,

> spiritual

> > and

> > > > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act

most

> > > > > ridiculous

> > > > > > > and gross.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

> times

> > > much

> > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish,

> the

> > > > > Vedang.

> > > > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with timing

> the

> > > > vedic

> > > > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this

> > > society

> > > > and

> > > > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow

> rearing

> > > > people

> > > > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly

> helped by

> > > > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these

> > > people

> > > > are

> > > > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well

as

> > > > > protecting

> > > > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the

> > concept

> > > of

> > > > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these

> > > people

> > > > are

> > > > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was

non

> > > > existent

> > > > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

> > systematic

> > > > way.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq

> during

> > > the

> > > > time

> > > > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of

> rice

> > > and

> > > > > > ruler

> > > > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting

> that

> > > took

> > > > > > place

> > > > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the

> people

> > > who

> > > > are

> > > > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in

> the

> > > > hands of

> > > > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in

> > > > RgVeda,

> > > > > The

> > > > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the

> > > > > > development

> > > > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste

> system.

> > > The

> > > > > same

> > > > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the

> King

> > > > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who

> came

> > > > along

> > > > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

> > > Certainly,

> > > > this

> > > > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to

the

> > > > sciences

> > > > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge,

> > > > synthesis

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this

> > time

> > > > that

> > > > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of

> > mundane

> > > > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with

agriculture.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily

> lives

> > > and

> > > > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one was

> born,

> > > > timing

> > > > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as

> > > > > > Coronations

> > > > > > > etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more

> depended

> > > > upon

> > > > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books

> were

> > > > > > written

> > > > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there

> were

> > > many

> > > > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts.

> It

> > > is

> > > > Sage

> > > > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all

the

> > > > samhitas

> > > > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set of

> > rules

> > > of

> > > > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was

> already

> > > born

> > > > and

> > > > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or

> so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology

by

> > > > several

> > > > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of

Prgjyotishpur

> > > (and

> > > > the

> > > > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is

> connected

> > > with

> > > > > > more

> > > > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events

as

> > > given

> > > > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when they

> > have

> > > > taken

> > > > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out

the

> > > > beginning

> > > > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear shreenadh,

 

You share my sentiments. So far as romilla thapar is concerned,(it

is she not he), she has earned lots of name thanks to her

westernized ways and being a highly polished and yet very

impressive lady and not due to her knowledge of History. I am an

occassional reader of history and still, I could phew phew her

theories. For one, I do not think she is a historian leave alone a

great one!

 

Humans yet to understand difference between an impressive person and

a knowledgeable person.

 

Kishore patnaik

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kishore ji,

> I somebody tries to desing history based on statements like -

> ==>

> > it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have

> > told you so "

> <==

> Then how can he be called a true historian?!

>

> Do you know there is only very few texts that describes even

> the " Outlines of the Subject called History " , i.e. Books that

> describe " How to study history " , and the wonderful fact is that

even

> for Post Graduate Courses on history these basics are not even

> touched with! How such people can understand the ancient

history?!

> This is the scenario! How many true historians we see today,

became

> historians after learning the history as it is tough now?! Very

few!

> Why? The people who study history as it is taught now, CAN NOT

become

> historians! The study method now followed in learning/teaching

> history itself is against the true sprit of understanding (doing

> research, revealing, and spreading light on the dark areas) of

> ancient history!

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , " kishore mohan "

> <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear shreenadh,

> >

> > YOur apprehensions are right. But do you know that most of the

> > ancient history of the world is written on the basis of the

> literary

> > texts?

> >

> > If puranas are wrong, how could it be that Jataka tales can be

> right?

> >

> > There is a peculiar position. For eg., Asoka has inscripted so

many

> > rock edicts but he is not really popular in the literature. In

> > certain places, he has described as a villain etc.

> >

> > Romesh Thapar has specifically written a book on Asoka and as

> usual,

> > it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have

> told

> > you so "

> >

> > The searching for solid history in India is at minimal and even

> what

> > has been available, is not fully documented or researched.

> >

> > Another problem we face is the problem of borders. We share our

> past

> > with our neighbours but they have no respect for that past

because

> > both Pakistan and Bangladesh believe that all History prior to

> > Moslem sultans is trash.

> >

> > Anyway, I hope to resolve some of your doubts in next posts.

> >

> >

> > Kishore patnaik

> >

> >

> >

> > -- In , " Sreenadh "

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > You haven't answered my doubts.

> > > ===>

> > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with

> > > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda

(such

> as

> > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

> their

> > > imagination.

> > > <==

> > > It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. That

is

> > the

> > > only difference.

> > >

> > > ==>

> > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has

preceded

> > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's

> > story

> > > based on the literary sources.

> > > <==

> > > Yap. you are agreeing with it!

> > > Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that matters

and

> > not

> > > the made-up stories!

> > >

> > > ==>

> > > While westerners also have used these sources, they have

depended

> > > heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow

> > galore

> > > in apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists

have

> > > depended more on the puranic sources as well as the classic

works

> > > such as those of Kalidasa and canakya.

> > > <==

> > > It is all the same - now we are trying to totally denay the

> > > contributions of Jin and Buddhist school, a torture started

> > centuries

> > > ago and made perfect by Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and

Jin

> > > texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild Interpretations " of

Vedic

> > > literature, it is the same - THEY ARE ALL SECONDORY EVIDANCES,

IN

> > THE

> > > STRICT VIEW OF THE HISTORY, THAT SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO

> > SUBSTANTIATE

> > > THE AVAILABLE PRIMARY EVIDANCES. Now everybody is violating

this

> > > rule!

> > > Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary

> > > evidences but only in story making! People who are not

interested

> > in

> > > archeological, linguistic, rock inscriptions and other primary

> > > evidences are making stories purely based on " popular " ancient

> > > literature, there also not even trying to directly study the

> > > available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there

> > > statements about literary history! This is the problem I was

> > trying

> > > to present.

> > >

> > > P.S. : Look at the difference between the " popular " belief

about

> > the

> > > literary history of astrology, and the history of astrology as

> per

> > > literary evidence, which I have described earlier based on

> Schools

> > of

> > > astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a common problem?

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > , " kishore

mohan "

> > > <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > dear shreenadh,

> > > >

> > > > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> > > > historians and those of nationalist school> While the

formal

> > hold

> > > > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of

> > Indians,

> > > > the nationalists beg to differ.

> > > >

> > > > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished

for

> > 1500

> > > > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans

> > have

> > > > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true

> that

> > > the

> > > > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings

> > looking

> > > > like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say that

> the

> > > > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the

same

> > > being

> > > > by Aryans.

> > > >

> > > > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed,

have

> > > never

> > > > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city,

> > thus,

> > > > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever.

> > > >

> > > > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two

> > counts:

> > > >

> > > > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They

neither

> > > could

> > > > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could

have

> > such

> > > a

> > > > hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past as

> > much

> > > as

> > > > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the

> > Indians

> > > > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

> > > >

> > > > The second problem that they have encountered is the

christian

> > > > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000

> > years

> > > or

> > > > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined

into

> > this

> > > > limited period of known world.

> > > >

> > > > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above

would

> > make

> > > > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the

> world

> > > and

> > > > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and

stitch

> > > > theories were floated in case of Indian past.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> > > > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda

(such

> > as

> > > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

> > their

> > > > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> > > > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in

the

> > > > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the

attitude

> > to

> > > > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians

> were

> > > not

> > > > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

> > westeners,

> > > > we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly

> > anyone

> > > to

> > > > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian

> history

> > > >

> > > > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages,

> > before

> > > > the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves

> > during

> > > > the late 80's.

> > > >

> > > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has

preceded

> > > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the

country's

> > > story

> > > > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have

used

> > these

> > > > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> > > > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent

> > contradictions.

> > > > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the

> > puranic

> > > > sources as well as the classic works such as those of

Kalidasa

> > and

> > > > canakya.

> > > >

> > > > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta

> maurya

> > at

> > > > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times

being

> > in

> > > > 327 bce.

> > > >

> > > > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes,

the a

> > > fool

> > > > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a

> day

> > is

> > > > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> > > > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hope this helps,

> > > >

> > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , sree nadh

> > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > My doubt is:

> > > > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least

> > 2000

> > > > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or

> more

> > > > years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > > > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > > > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people

knew

> > > > Sanskrit.

> > > > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the

Sindhu-

> > > > Saraswaty language.

> > > > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language

> > (since

> > > > being ancient?)

> > > > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use

Swara

> > > > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > > > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty

> > civilization

> > > > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical

> > period,

> > > > even at the time of Mouryas.

> > > > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that

> > Sindhu-

> > > > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due

to

> > dying

> > > > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > > > > Love,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The

Indian

> > > > chronology I

> > > > > follow is not that one which has been given by the

> > Britishers!!!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has

taken

> > > > place

> > > > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my

> > message

> > > > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> > > > >

> > > > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not

without

> > > > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED

> > that

> > > > the

> > > > > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > > > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the

western

> > > > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion

took

> > > > place

> > > > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that-

> > with

> > > > say,

> > > > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years

between

> > each

> > > > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have

never

> > > > asked

> > > > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions.

Thus,

> > we

> > > > can

> > > > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I

agree

> > that

> > > > it

> > > > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and

universally

> > > > agreed)

> > > > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take

it

> to

> > be

> > > > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such

a

> > mega

> > > > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove

that

> > Indus

> > > > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature.

> But

> > > > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically

> concluded

> > > > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems

to

> be

> > a

> > > > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but

> not

> > > > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation

> > might

> > > > have

> > > > > slightly predated MB.

> > > > >

> > > > > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly,

there

> is

> > > not

> > > > a

> > > > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is

indeed

> > true

> > > > > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have

> > taken

> > > > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the

> > > lineage

> > > > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to

the

> > > > dating

> > > > > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> > > > >

> > > > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

> > convinced

> > > > of

> > > > > any these arguements.

> > > > >

> > > > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest

what I

> > > have

> > > > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one

> > iota

> > > of

> > > > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners)

> > chronology,

> > > > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology???

well,

> > you

> > > > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except

for a

> > big

> > > > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such

proof

> > or

> > > > > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > >

> > > > > , sree nadh

> > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> > precedes

> > > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I

have

> > > > talked

> > > > > in

> > > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

> > through

> > > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > > > <==

> > > > > > From where you got this maths?

> > > > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!

> > > > > > Any supporting evidence?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

> > sangam

> > > > > age,

> > > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to

> much

> > > > later

> > > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > > > <==

> > > > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata

period?!!!!

> > > > > That argument would really take time to digest, also due

to

> > the

> > > > fact

> > > > > that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary

or

> > > > > otherwise)!

> > > > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic

period

> > was

> > > > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate

that -

> > > > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley

civilization

> and

> > > > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic

> period !!!

> > > > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked

those

> > who

> > > > > lived after!

> > > > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously

> putting " indus

> > > > > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > > > > Dear sreenadh,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your

mail. I

> > am

> > > > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking

something

> > > > > entirely

> > > > > > different.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is

an

> > > > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that

> Indra

> > > has

> > > > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that

he

> > has

> > > > > tried

> > > > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is

also

> > > called

> > > > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> > > > sachidevi's

> > > > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously

described

> as

> > a

> > > > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the

later

> > > > stories

> > > > > > always described the people from same families(belonging

to

> > > > these

> > > > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending

whether

> > the

> > > > > story

> > > > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of

Vrtra

> is

> > a

> > > > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her

> > father

> > > > who

> > > > > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her

is

> > an

> > > > > asura.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described

as

> > > > > brahmins

> > > > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas

and

> > the

> > > > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas-

purusha

> > > > means

> > > > > the

> > > > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how

> > this

> > > > > society

> > > > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war)

to

> > > > create

> > > > > a

> > > > > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of

> > Indra

> > > > > turned

> > > > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration

of

> > > panis

> > > > > from

> > > > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the

> > society

> > > > > indra

> > > > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people

who

> > are

> > > > > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed

Vedas

> > and

> > > > good

> > > > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed

today.

> > The

> > > > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and

most

> > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the

Vedic

> > > > times,

> > > > > the

> > > > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of

> > ritualistic

> > > > > > events.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the

> > agriculture

> > > > has

> > > > > set

> > > > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus,

> the

> > > > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of

the

> > tools

> > > > to

> > > > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described

what

> > > kind

> > > > > of

> > > > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the

> > moment

> > > > in

> > > > > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started

> > fixing

> > > > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With the increase in population and number of trades and

> the

> > > > > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly

> > > started

> > > > > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place prior

to

> > the

> > > > > Ramayan

> > > > > > times.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> > precedes

> > > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I

have

> > > > talked

> > > > > in

> > > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

> > through

> > > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana,

> > sangam

> > > > > age,

> > > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to

> much

> > > > later

> > > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM

TALKING

> > AND

> > > > > WHAT

> > > > > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , sree

nadh

> > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the

> previous

> > > > > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the

> > following

> > > > > > reasons -

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > > > > Vedas,

> > > > > > but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology

> and

> > > > > Tropical

> > > > > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system.

The

> > > system

> > > > > we

> > > > > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the

> > ruminants

> > > of

> > > > > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the

> > concept

> > > > of

> > > > > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac

with

> > > > Prana

> > > > > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the

subject

> > > > > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons.

It

> is

> > > > well

> > > > > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya

> > > samajam,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes

that

> > > says

> > > > > the

> > > > > > same as well.

> > > > > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a

interpretation

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a

single

> > > good

> > > > > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated

in

> > the

> > > > > Vedic

> > > > > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –

> Adhidaivika

> > > > > (divine-

> > > > > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika

(spiritual)

> > etc

> > > > > concept

> > > > > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a

> > single

> > > > > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another

> > > > statement

> > > > > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas -

 

> > i.e.

> > > 6

> > > > > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics

and

> > > Laws

> > > > > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha),

Grammar

> > > > > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > > > > interpretation

> > > > > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact

> the

> > > > > Sayana

> > > > > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original

meaning

> > of

> > > > > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who tried

to

> > > > uphold

> > > > > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the

> > > > > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text, by

> > Sayana

> > > > as

> > > > > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology

as

> > > > well!

> > > > > If

> > > > > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a

look

> at

> > > > > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that

> > text.

> > > > > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam " (the

> > > > > first

> > > > > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is

> speaking

> > > > about

> > > > > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda

both

> > > > > Sidereal

> > > > > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas,

they

> > > > > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge

> > > branches.

> > > > > The

> > > > > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that by

> now.

> > > > > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of Aryan

> > > > > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic

slokas.

> If

> > > > > people

> > > > > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are

rather

> > > > related

> > > > > to

> > > > > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between

vedic

> > and

> > > > > non-

> > > > > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your

> > > answer?

> > > > > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > > > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological

> evidence

> > > for

> > > > a

> > > > > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a

separate

> > > > vedic

> > > > > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined

> > buildings,

> > > > > places

> > > > > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even

the

> > > > ruins

> > > > > of

> > > > > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before

us

> > > > > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or

> depending

> > on

> > > > > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence provided

by

> > the

> > > > > Sidhu-

> > > > > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of

people

> of

> > > > > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly

> > found

> > > > > city

> > > > > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same

period

> > or

> > > > > prior

> > > > > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not –

then

> is

> > > > there

> > > > > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or

epic

> > > > > culture?

> > > > > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had

> > already

> > > > put

> > > > > us

> > > > > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > > > > interpretations, and not providing much archeological

> > proof!)

> > > > > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > > > > architecture,

> > > > > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people

in

> > > > > Sankham

> > > > > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-

> > Saraswathy

> > > > and

> > > > > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to

> > > > understand

> > > > > > that –

> > > > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization

> > > > > (?)

> > > > > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different – even

> > though

> > > > > much

> > > > > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > > > > scientifically

> > > > > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most of

> > ancient

> > > > > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and

> English

> > > > > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural

factors.

> > > > > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north

> > > > > or

> > > > > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic

gods,

> > even

> > > > > though

> > > > > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged with

> > some

> > > > half

> > > > > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > > > > thought

> > > > > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be

neglected,

> > and

> > > > > they

> > > > > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to

Dravidian

> or

> > > > > Vedic.

> > > > > > This makes the differentiation of culture and religion

very

> > > > > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given due

> > place

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology

or

> > > > vastu

> > > > > or

> > > > > > any other subject.

> > > > > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much

advanced

> > > > > in

> > > > > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of

> > > > > mathematics,

> > > > > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as

told

> > by

> > > > > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous

> > continuation

> > > of

> > > > > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries,

pots

> > etc)

> > > > > even

> > > > > > today?

> > > > > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > > > > Saraswathy

> > > > > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy

> > civilization

> > > is

> > > > > > supposed to have used a language without swara chinhas

> > (symols

> > > > > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent

> now

> > > > there

> > > > > is

> > > > > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> > > > characteristics

> > > > > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only

such

> > > > language

> > > > > I

> > > > > > know is English, (there could many others as well I am

not

> > an

> > > > > expert

> > > > > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-

related

> > the

> > > > > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to

> > > English

> > > > > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't

know,

> > when

> > > > > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the

language

> > of

> > > > > Sidhu-

> > > > > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in

> > Sanskrit

> > > it

> > > > > is

> > > > > > used in plenty?

> > > > > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the

non-

> > > > > vedic

> > > > > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular

> > religion),

> > > > and

> > > > > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the

> > > knowledge

> > > > > base

> > > > > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and

> even

> > > > merge

> > > > > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples

> > exists

> > > > > today

> > > > > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic

> > > > culture!

> > > > > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular

majority

> to

> > > > > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much

mixing

> > took

> > > > > place,

> > > > > > the original system survived and the vedic system got

> merged

> > > > into

> > > > > it!

> > > > > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other

subject –

> > it

> > > is

> > > > a

> > > > > > fact, we can find!

> > > > > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it

is

> > > > > better

> > > > > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than

making

> > > > > stories

> > > > > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It

is

> > > > > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an

> > extensive

> > > > > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of

> learning

> > > and

> > > > > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story

> making

> > > > > should

> > > > > > be avoided.

> > > > > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the

subject

> > we

> > > > > > know, rather than start doing story making for

history.

> > The

> > > > > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that

for

> > > > long,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the

> study

> > of

> > > > > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a

History

> > post

> > > > > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient

script,

> > or

> > > > how

> > > > > to

> > > > > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological

> > > > evidences,

> > > > > or

> > > > > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own

> > subject!

> > > > > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am

> > > > > supporter

> > > > > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the

fact

> > that

> > > I

> > > > > am a

> > > > > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other

> > > > available

> > > > > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there is

a

> > > > person

> > > > > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > > > > could have commented on my post on para to para basis.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > K

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , sree

nadh

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued

that

> > > > astrology

> > > > > > > originated in that period or that that planetory

position

> > was

> > > > > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the

> > mail !

> > > > > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory

position as

> > > > > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins

in

> > times

> > > > > much

> > > > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should

know

> > that

> > > > > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto

BC

> > > 5400,

> > > > > and I

> > > > > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> > > > Moolatrikona

> > > > > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just part

of

> > > > > research.

> > > > > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory position

has

> > any

> > > > > > > relation with the origin of astrological system. That

too

> > I

> > > > have

> > > > > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant,

> even

> > to

> > > > > read

> > > > > > it

> > > > > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable,

> > spiritual

> > > and

> > > > > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act

> most

> > > > > > ridiculous

> > > > > > > > and gross.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in

> > times

> > > > much

> > > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the

Jyotish,

> > the

> > > > > > Vedang.

> > > > > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with

timing

> > the

> > > > > vedic

> > > > > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in

this

> > > > society

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow

> > rearing

> > > > > people

> > > > > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly

> > helped by

> > > > > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence,

these

> > > > people

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as

well

> as

> > > > > > protecting

> > > > > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was the

> > > concept

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While

these

> > > > people

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was

> non

> > > > > existent

> > > > > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

> > > systematic

> > > > > way.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq

> > during

> > > > the

> > > > > time

> > > > > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation

of

> > rice

> > > > and

> > > > > > > ruler

> > > > > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting

> > that

> > > > took

> > > > > > > place

> > > > > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the

> > people

> > > > who

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed

in

> > the

> > > > > hands of

> > > > > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place

in

> > > > > RgVeda,

> > > > > > The

> > > > > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with

the

> > > > > > > development

> > > > > > > > of such new concepts as private property and caste

> > system.

> > > > The

> > > > > > same

> > > > > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein

the

> > King

> > > > > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people

who

> > came

> > > > > along

> > > > > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati.

> > > > Certainly,

> > > > > this

> > > > > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to

> the

> > > > > sciences

> > > > > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient

knowledge,

> > > > > synthesis

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at

this

> > > time

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events

of

> > > mundane

> > > > > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with

> agriculture.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily

> > lives

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one

was

> > born,

> > > > > timing

> > > > > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events

such as

> > > > > > > Coronations

> > > > > > > > etc.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more

> > depended

> > > > > upon

> > > > > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several

books

> > were

> > > > > > > written

> > > > > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and

there

> > were

> > > > many

> > > > > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading

charts.

> > It

> > > > is

> > > > > Sage

> > > > > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all

> the

> > > > > samhitas

> > > > > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic set

of

> > > rules

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was

> > already

> > > > born

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years

or

> > so.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of

astrology

> by

> > > > > several

> > > > > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of

> Prgjyotishpur

> > > > (and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is

> > connected

> > > > with

> > > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of

events

> as

> > > > given

> > > > > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when

they

> > > have

> > > > > taken

> > > > > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out

> the

> > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Kishore ji, Romilla thapar is left sided thinker. Due to this very reason, she can not be called a true historian. She is a worker doing the job of interpreting history to suit the view Maxist pary. Nothing more nothing less. That is my understanding. How such a person can be called a historian?! Are we not speaking about historians and not workers doing some job?! Love, Sreenadhkishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09 wrote: Dear shreenadh, You share my sentiments. So far as romilla thapar is concerned,(it is she not he), she has earned lots of name thanks to her westernized ways and being a highly polished and yet very

impressive lady and not due to her knowledge of History. I am an occassional reader of history and still, I could phew phew her theories. For one, I do not think she is a historian leave alone a great one!Humans yet to understand difference between an impressive person and a knowledgeable person. Kishore patnaik , "Sreenadh" wrote:>> Dear Kishore ji,> I somebody tries to desing history based on statements like -> ==>> > it was full of either " I think so" or " It is so, since I have> > told you so" > <==> Then how can he be called a true historian?!> > Do you know there is only very few texts that describes even > the "Outlines of the Subject called History", i.e. Books that > describe "How to study history", and the wonderful fact is that even > for Post Graduate

Courses on history these basics are not even > touched with! How such people can understand the ancient history?! > This is the scenario! How many true historians we see today, became > historians after learning the history as it is tough now?! Very few! > Why? The people who study history as it is taught now, CAN NOT become > historians! The study method now followed in learning/teaching > history itself is against the true sprit of understanding (doing > research, revealing, and spreading light on the dark areas) of > ancient history! > Love,> Sreenadh> > , "kishore mohan" > wrote:> >> > > > Dear shreenadh, > > > > YOur apprehensions are right. But do you know that most of the > > ancient history of the world is written on the basis of the

> literary > > texts? > > > > If puranas are wrong, how could it be that Jataka tales can be > right?> > > > There is a peculiar position. For eg., Asoka has inscripted so many > > rock edicts but he is not really popular in the literature. In > > certain places, he has described as a villain etc. > > > > Romesh Thapar has specifically written a book on Asoka and as > usual, > > it was full of either " I think so" or " It is so, since I have > told > > you so" > > > > The searching for solid history in India is at minimal and even > what > > has been available, is not fully documented or researched. > > > > Another problem we face is the problem of borders. We share our > past > > with our neighbours but they have no respect for that past because >

> both Pakistan and Bangladesh believe that all History prior to > > Moslem sultans is trash. > > > > Anyway, I hope to resolve some of your doubts in next posts. > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > -- In , "Sreenadh" > > wrote:> > >> > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > You haven't answered my doubts. > > > ===>> > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with > > > their "story making", trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such > as > > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited > their > > > imagination. > > > <==> > > It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. That is > > the > > >

only difference. > > > > > > ==>> > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded > > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's > > story > > > based on the literary sources. > > > <==> > > Yap. you are agreeing with it! > > > Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that matters and > > not > > > the made-up stories!> > > > > > ==>> > > While westerners also have used these sources, they have depended > > > heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow > > galore > > > in apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists have > > > depended more on the puranic sources as well as the classic works > > > such as those of Kalidasa and

canakya. > > > <==> > > It is all the same - now we are trying to totally denay the > > > contributions of Jin and Buddhist school, a torture started > > centuries > > > ago and made perfect by Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and Jin > > > texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild Interpretations" of Vedic > > > literature, it is the same - THEY ARE ALL SECONDORY EVIDANCES, IN > > THE > > > STRICT VIEW OF THE HISTORY, THAT SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO > > SUBSTANTIATE > > > THE AVAILABLE PRIMARY EVIDANCES. Now everybody is violating this > > > rule! > > > Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary > > > evidences but only in story making! People who are not interested > > in > > > archeological, linguistic, rock inscriptions and other primary

> > > evidences are making stories purely based on "popular" ancient > > > literature, there also not even trying to directly study the > > > available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there > > > statements about literary history! This is the problem I was > > trying > > > to present. > > > > > > P.S. : Look at the difference between the "popular" belief about > > the > > > literary history of astrology, and the history of astrology as > per > > > literary evidence, which I have described earlier based on > Schools > > of > > > astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a common problem?> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > , "kishore mohan" > > >

wrote:> > > >> > > > dear shreenadh, > > > > > > > > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western > > > > historians and those of nationalist school> While the formal > > hold > > > > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of > > Indians, > > > > the nationalists beg to differ. > > > > > > > > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for > > 1500 > > > > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the Aryans > > have > > > > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true > that > > > the > > > > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings > > looking > > > > like getting burnt down, there

is no other proof to say that > the > > > > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same > > > being > > > > by Aryans. > > > > > > > > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have > > > never > > > > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city, > > thus, > > > > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for ever. > > > > > > > > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two > > counts: > > > > > > > > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither > > > could > > > > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could have > > such > > > a > > > > hoary past. Thus, they tried to

underplay the Indian past as > > much > > > as > > > > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the > > Indians > > > > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians. > > > > > > > > The second problem that they have encountered is the christian > > > > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000 > > years > > > or > > > > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined into > > this > > > > limited period of known world. > > > > > > > > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would > > make > > > > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the > world > > > and > > > > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew

and stitch > > > > theories were floated in case of Indian past. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with > > > > their "story making", trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such > > as > > > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited > > their > > > > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our > > > > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the > > > > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the attitude > > to > > > > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians > were > > > not > > > > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by > > westeners, > > > > we did not know we had an

Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly > > anyone > > > to > > > > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian > history > > > > > > > > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages, > > before > > > > the nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves > > during > > > > the late 80's. > > > > > > > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded > > > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's > > > story > > > > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have used > > these > > > > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin > > > > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent > > contradictions. >

> > > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the > > puranic > > > > sources as well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa > > and > > > > canakya. > > > > > > > > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta > maurya > > at > > > > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times being > > in > > > > 327 bce. > > > > > > > > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes, the a > > > fool > > > > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a > day > > is > > > > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the > > > > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned. > > > > > > > > >

> > > Hope this helps, > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > > > , sree nadh > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > > > My doubt is:> > > > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least > > 2000 > > > > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or > more > > > > years between them. Supportive ideas -> > > > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.> > > > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew > > > > Sanskrit.> > > > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-> > > > Saraswaty

language.> > > > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language > > (since > > > > being ancient?)> > > > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara > > > > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.> > > > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty > > civilization > > > > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical > > period, > > > > even at the time of Mouryas.> > > > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that > > Sindhu-> > > > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due to > > dying > > > > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there. > > > > > Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:> > > > > > > > > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian > > > > chronology I > > > > > follow is not that one which has been given by the > > Britishers!!!!> > > > > > > > > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken > > > > place > > > > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my > > message > > > > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago). > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without > > > > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have ASSUMED > > that > > > > the > > > > > difference between

each layer is 500 years and hence, the > > > > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western > > > > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took > > > > place > > > > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that- > > with > > > > say,> > > > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years between > > each > > > > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have never > > > > asked > > > > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, > > we > > > > can > > > > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I agree > > that > > > > it > > > > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and

universally > > > > agreed) > > > > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take it > to > > be > > > > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of such a > > mega > > > > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that > > Indus > > > > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. > But > > > > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically > concluded > > > > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems to > be > > a > > > > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but > not > > > > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus

valley civilziation > > might > > > > have > > > > > slightly predated MB. > > > > > > > > > > But to be frank, this is only presumption. > > > > > > > > > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there > is > > > not > > > > a > > > > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is indeed > > true > > > > > that it must be very very prior to MB. > > > > > > > > > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have > > taken > > > > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date the > > > lineage > > > > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to the > > > > dating > > > >

> of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait) > > > > > > > > > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not > > convinced > > > > of > > > > > any these arguements. > > > > > > > > > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I > > > have > > > > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me one > > iota > > > of > > > > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners) > > chronology, > > > > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology??? well, > > you > > > > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a > > big > > > > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such proof > > or

> > > > > logic presented by any of the westeners. > > > > > > > > > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley. > > > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik > > > > > > > > > > , sree nadh > > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly > > precedes > > > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have > > > > talked > > > > > in > > > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days > > through > > > > > > mahabharat times. > > > >

> > <==> > > > > > From where you got this maths? > > > > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?!> > > > > > Any supporting evidence?> > > > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, > > sangam > > > > > age, > > > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to > much > > > > later > > > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. > > > > > > <==> > > > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!! > > > > > That argument would really take time to digest, also due to > > the > > > > fact > > > > > that it

is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or > > > > > otherwise)!> > > > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period > > was > > > > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that - > > > > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization > and> > > > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic > period !!!> > > > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those > > who > > > > > lived after!> > > > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously > putting "indus > > > > > valley period" in that list or the like? > > > > > > Love,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:> > > > > > Dear sreenadh, > > > > > > > > > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I > > am > > > > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something > > > > > entirely > > > > > > different. > > > > > > > > > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an > > > > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that > Indra > > > has > > > > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he > > has > > > > > tried > > > > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also > > >

called > > > > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed > > > > sachidevi's > > > > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described > as > > a > > > > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later > > > > stories > > > > > > always described the people from same families(belonging to > > > > these > > > > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether > > the > > > > > story > > > > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra > is > > a > > > > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her > > father > > > > who > > > > > > valiantly fought Indira to

stop him from kidnapping her is > > an > > > > > asura. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as > > > > > brahmins > > > > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras. > > > > > > > > > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and > > the > > > > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha > > > > means > > > > > the > > > > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how > > this > > > > > society > > > > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to > > > > create > > > > > a > > > > > > new

society based on the four Varnas. > > > > > > > > > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of > > Indra > > > > > turned > > > > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of > > > panis > > > > > from > > > > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the > > society > > > > > indra > > > > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who > > are > > > > > > simply workers came to be called sudras. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas > > and > > > > good > > > > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed today.

> > The > > > > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most > > of > > > > the > > > > > > sciences also have taken new shape. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic > > > > times, > > > > > the > > > > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of > > ritualistic > > > > > > events. > > > > > > > > > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the > > agriculture > > > > has > > > > > set > > > > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, > the > > > > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the

> > tools > > > > to > > > > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what > > > kind > > > > > of > > > > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the > > moment > > > > in > > > > > > which the clouds are "impregnated". It also has started > > fixing > > > > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. === message truncated ===

[Guest guest]

Please read my mail once again.

 

 

Romilla thapar is taken to be a big historian by western world and

government. She is impressive and polished and all that. As you said,

she is a marxist. Marxists say they oppose imperialism on onehand and

hence, reject what the britishers say and want to reject what

nationalists say because it is mostly RSS on the other.

 

But obviously, they are catering to to britishers' view in the end.

SO did Nehru also.

 

 

I do not consider RT as a historian leave alone a big historian. She

is a big name only because the governments were full of marxist

sympathizers and she is a polished and impressive lady AND NOT

BECAUSE OF HER HISTORY KNOwLEDGE

 

 

Kishore patnaik

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, sree nadh

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Kishore ji,

> Romilla thapar is left sided thinker. Due to this very reason,

she can not be called a true historian. She is a worker doing the job

of interpreting history to suit the view Maxist pary. Nothing more

nothing less. That is my understanding. How such a person can be

called a historian?!

> Are we not speaking about historians and not workers doing some

job?!

> Love,

> Sreenadh

> kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09 wrote:

> Dear shreenadh,

>

> You share my sentiments. So far as romilla thapar is concerned,(it

> is she not he), she has earned lots of name thanks to her

> westernized ways and being a highly polished and yet very

> impressive lady and not due to her knowledge of History. I am an

> occassional reader of history and still, I could phew phew her

> theories. For one, I do not think she is a historian leave alone a

> great one!

>

> Humans yet to understand difference between an impressive person

and

> a knowledgeable person.

>

> Kishore patnaik

> , " Sreenadh "

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Kishore ji,

> > I somebody tries to desing history based on statements like -

> > ==>

> > > it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have

> > > told you so "

> > <==

> > Then how can he be called a true historian?!

> >

> > Do you know there is only very few texts that describes even

> > the " Outlines of the Subject called History " , i.e. Books that

> > describe " How to study history " , and the wonderful fact is that

> even

> > for Post Graduate Courses on history these basics are not even

> > touched with! How such people can understand the ancient

> history?!

> > This is the scenario! How many true historians we see today,

> became

> > historians after learning the history as it is tough now?! Very

> few!

> > Why? The people who study history as it is taught now, CAN NOT

> become

> > historians! The study method now followed in learning/teaching

> > history itself is against the true sprit of understanding (doing

> > research, revealing, and spreading light on the dark areas) of

> > ancient history!

> > Love,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > , " kishore mohan "

> > wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear shreenadh,

> > >

> > > YOur apprehensions are right. But do you know that most of the

> > > ancient history of the world is written on the basis of the

> > literary

> > > texts?

> > >

> > > If puranas are wrong, how could it be that Jataka tales can be

> > right?

> > >

> > > There is a peculiar position. For eg., Asoka has inscripted so

> many

> > > rock edicts but he is not really popular in the literature. In

> > > certain places, he has described as a villain etc.

> > >

> > > Romesh Thapar has specifically written a book on Asoka and as

> > usual,

> > > it was full of either " I think so " or " It is so, since I have

> > told

> > > you so "

> > >

> > > The searching for solid history in India is at minimal and even

> > what

> > > has been available, is not fully documented or researched.

> > >

> > > Another problem we face is the problem of borders. We share our

> > past

> > > with our neighbours but they have no respect for that past

> because

> > > both Pakistan and Bangladesh believe that all History prior to

> > > Moslem sultans is trash.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I hope to resolve some of your doubts in next posts.

> > >

> > >

> > > Kishore patnaik

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > -- In , " Sreenadh "

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > You haven't answered my doubts.

> > > > ===>

> > > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with

> > > > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda

> (such

> > as

> > > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited

> > their

> > > > imagination.

> > > > <==

> > > > It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. That

> is

> > > the

> > > > only difference.

> > > >

> > > > ==>

> > > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has

> preceded

> > > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the

country's

> > > story

> > > > based on the literary sources.

> > > > <==

> > > > Yap. you are agreeing with it!

> > > > Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that matters

> and

> > > not

> > > > the made-up stories!

> > > >

> > > > ==>

> > > > While westerners also have used these sources, they have

> depended

> > > > heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow

> > > galore

> > > > in apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists

> have

> > > > depended more on the puranic sources as well as the classic

> works

> > > > such as those of Kalidasa and canakya.

> > > > <==

> > > > It is all the same - now we are trying to totally denay the

> > > > contributions of Jin and Buddhist school, a torture started

> > > centuries

> > > > ago and made perfect by Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and

> Jin

> > > > texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild Interpretations " of

> Vedic

> > > > literature, it is the same - THEY ARE ALL SECONDORY

EVIDANCES,

> IN

> > > THE

> > > > STRICT VIEW OF THE HISTORY, THAT SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO

> > > SUBSTANTIATE

> > > > THE AVAILABLE PRIMARY EVIDANCES. Now everybody is violating

> this

> > > > rule!

> > > > Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary

> > > > evidences but only in story making! People who are not

> interested

> > > in

> > > > archeological, linguistic, rock inscriptions and other

primary

> > > > evidences are making stories purely based on " popular "

ancient

> > > > literature, there also not even trying to directly study the

> > > > available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there

> > > > statements about literary history! This is the problem I was

> > > trying

> > > > to present.

> > > >

> > > > P.S. : Look at the difference between the " popular " belief

> about

> > > the

> > > > literary history of astrology, and the history of astrology

as

> > per

> > > > literary evidence, which I have described earlier based on

> > Schools

> > > of

> > > > astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a common

problem?

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > > , " kishore

> mohan "

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > dear shreenadh,

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western

> > > > > historians and those of nationalist school> While the

> formal

> > > hold

> > > > > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history of

> > > Indians,

> > > > > the nationalists beg to differ.

> > > > >

> > > > > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished

> for

> > > 1500

> > > > > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the

Aryans

> > > have

> > > > > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is true

> > that

> > > > the

> > > > > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings

> > > looking

> > > > > like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say

that

> > the

> > > > > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the

> same

> > > > being

> > > > > by Aryans.

> > > > >

> > > > > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed,

> have

> > > > never

> > > > > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated

city,

> > > thus,

> > > > > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for

ever.

> > > > >

> > > > > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from two

> > > counts:

> > > > >

> > > > > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They

> neither

> > > > could

> > > > > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could

> have

> > > such

> > > > a

> > > > > hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past

as

> > > much

> > > > as

> > > > > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide the

> > > Indians

> > > > > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

> > > > >

> > > > > The second problem that they have encountered is the

> christian

> > > > > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only 4000

> > > years

> > > > or

> > > > > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined

> into

> > > this

> > > > > limited period of known world.

> > > > >

> > > > > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above

> would

> > > make

> > > > > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of the

> > world

> > > > and

> > > > > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and

> stitch

> > > > > theories were floated in case of Indian past.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with

> > > > > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda

> (such

> > > as

> > > > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it

suited

> > > their

> > > > > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied our

> > > > > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in

> the

> > > > > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the

> attitude

> > > to

> > > > > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case, Indians

> > were

> > > > not

> > > > > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

> > > westeners,

> > > > > we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was hardly

> > > anyone

> > > > to

> > > > > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian

> > history

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages,

> > > before

> > > > > the nationalists have built up a stong school for

themselves

> > > during

> > > > > the late 80's.

> > > > >

> > > > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has

> preceded

> > > > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the

> country's

> > > > story

> > > > > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have

> used

> > > these

> > > > > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and Jin

> > > > > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent

> > > contradictions.

> > > > > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the

> > > puranic

> > > > > sources as well as the classic works such as those of

> Kalidasa

> > > and

> > > > > canakya.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta

> > maurya

> > > at

> > > > > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times

> being

> > > in

> > > > > 327 bce.

> > > > >

> > > > > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes,

> the a

> > > > fool

> > > > > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and such a

> > day

> > > is

> > > > > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of the

> > > > > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , sree nadh

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > My doubt is:

> > > > > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least

> > > 2000

> > > > > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or

> > more

> > > > > years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > > > > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

> > > > > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people

> knew

> > > > > Sanskrit.

> > > > > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the

> Sindhu-

> > > > > Saraswaty language.

> > > > > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language

> > > (since

> > > > > being ancient?)

> > > > > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use

> Swara

> > > > > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > > > > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty

> > > civilization

> > > > > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known historical

> > > period,

> > > > > even at the time of Mouryas.

> > > > > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove that

> > > Sindhu-

> > > > > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world (due

> to

> > > dying

> > > > > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The

> Indian

> > > > > chronology I

> > > > > > follow is not that one which has been given by the

> > > Britishers!!!!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has

> taken

> > > > > place

> > > > > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in my

> > > message

> > > > > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not

> without

> > > > > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have

ASSUMED

> > > that

> > > > > the

> > > > > > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence, the

> > > > > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the

> western

> > > > > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion

> took

> > > > > place

> > > > > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after that-

 

> > > with

> > > > > say,

> > > > > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years

> between

> > > each

> > > > > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have

> never

> > > > > asked

> > > > > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions.

> Thus,

> > > we

> > > > > can

> > > > > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I

> agree

> > > that

> > > > > it

> > > > > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and

> universally

> > > > > agreed)

> > > > > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely take

> it

> > to

> > > be

> > > > > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of

such

> a

> > > mega

> > > > > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove

> that

> > > Indus

> > > > > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in

nature.

> > But

> > > > > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically

> > concluded

> > > > > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this seems

> to

> > be

> > > a

> > > > > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned

but

> > not

> > > > > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation

> > > might

> > > > > have

> > > > > > slightly predated MB.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly,

> there

> > is

> > > > not

> > > > > a

> > > > > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is

> indeed

> > > true

> > > > > > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have

> > > taken

> > > > > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date

the

> > > > lineage

> > > > > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx to

> the

> > > > > dating

> > > > > > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

> > > convinced

> > > > > of

> > > > > > any these arguements.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest

> what I

> > > > have

> > > > > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me

one

> > > iota

> > > > of

> > > > > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners)

> > > chronology,

> > > > > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology???

> well,

> > > you

> > > > > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except

> for a

> > > big

> > > > > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such

> proof

> > > or

> > > > > > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , sree

nadh

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> > > precedes

> > > > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I

> have

> > > > > talked

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days

> > > through

> > > > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > From where you got this maths?

> > > > > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000

years ?!

> > > > > > > Any supporting evidence?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as

sayana,

> > > sangam

> > > > > > age,

> > > > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to

> > much

> > > > > later

> > > > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

> > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata

> period?!!!!

> > > > > > That argument would really take time to digest, also due

> to

> > > the

> > > > > fact

> > > > > > that it is presented with no supporting evidence

(literary

> or

> > > > > > otherwise)!

> > > > > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic

> period

> > > was

> > > > > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate

> that -

> > > > > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley

> civilization

> > and

> > > > > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic

> > period !!!

> > > > > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked

> those

> > > who

> > > > > > lived after!

> > > > > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously

> > putting " indus

> > > > > > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > > > Dear sreenadh,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your

> mail. I

> > > am

> > > > > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking

> something

> > > > > > entirely

> > > > > > > different.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge

is

> an

> > > > > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that

> > Indra

> > > > has

> > > > > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that

> he

> > > has

> > > > > > tried

> > > > > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is

> also

> > > > called

> > > > > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> > > > > sachidevi's

> > > > > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously

> described

> > as

> > > a

> > > > > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the

> later

> > > > > stories

> > > > > > > always described the people from same families

(belonging

> to

> > > > > these

> > > > > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending

> whether

> > > the

> > > > > > story

> > > > > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of

> Vrtra

> > is

> > > a

> > > > > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her

> > > father

> > > > > who

> > > > > > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her

> is

> > > an

> > > > > > asura.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were

described

> as

> > > > > > brahmins

> > > > > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas

> and

> > > the

> > > > > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas-

> purusha

> > > > > means

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and

how

> > > this

> > > > > > society

> > > > > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war)

> to

> > > > > create

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of

> > > Indra

> > > > > > turned

> > > > > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration

> of

> > > > panis

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the

> > > society

> > > > > > indra

> > > > > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people

> who

> > > are

> > > > > > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed

> Vedas

> > > and

> > > > > good

> > > > > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed

> today.

> > > The

> > > > > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and

> most

> > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the

> Vedic

> > > > > times,

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of

> > > ritualistic

> > > > > > > events.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the

> > > agriculture

> > > > > has

> > > > > > set

> > > > > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold.

Thus,

> > the

> > > > > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of

> the

> > > tools

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described

> what

> > > > kind

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the

> > > moment

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has started

> > > fixing

> > > > > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the

growth.

>

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear saurav,

 

Thnx for sending the piece by private mail.

 

it is laughable to call this as a research article. It is written by a

christian jesuit, heavily coming against Hinduism and propogating his

religion. There is no ressearch in it nor there is anything new in

the lies and half lies and wrong interpretations being proliferated.

 

Please exercise extra caution in becoming a foolish instrument in

pontification of India.

 

Kishore patanik

 

 

, " "

<gg_0202 wrote:

>

> ||Jai Ramakrishna||

> Dear Mohanji,

> That article was posted first...but due to the request of

Sreenadhji

> as it might hurt the people's feelings, i deleted it..

> I hope u can understand...

>

> I will post the other one in the coming week.

> Thanq,

> Wish u all success,

> With Humbleness,

>

>

>

> , " kishore mohan "

> <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Gaurav,

> >

> > where are these articles anyway?

> >

> > Kishore patnaik --- In

> > , " "

> > <gg_0202@> wrote:

> > >

> > > ||Jai Ramakrishna||

> > > Dear Sreenadhji,

> > > Thanq for giving me an opportunity to share my articles on

Indus

> > > Valley Civilisation.The one that i have posted is not that much

> > > informative, I have some others as a hard copy...which is very

> > > good...I will write them in word document & post them...

> > > Thanq again,

> > > Wish u all success,

> > > With Humbleness,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Sreenadh "

> > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Gaurav ji,

> > > > Please post those articles.

> > > > Love,

> > > > Sreenadh

> > > >

> > > > , " Gaurav

> Ghosh "

> > > > <gg_0202@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > ||Jai Ramakrishna||

> > > > > Dear Learned Members,

> > > > > I have articles on the latest researches done over

> there...If

> > > > > anybody is interested..I can post them.

> > > > > Thanq,

> > > > > Wish u all success,

> > > > > With humbleness,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , " kishore

> > mohan "

> > > > > <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dear shreenadh,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Exactly this is the bone of contention between the

western

> > > > > > historians and those of nationalist school> While the

> > formal

> > > > hold

> > > > > > that the Indus valley is the beginning of known history

of

> > > > > Indians,

> > > > > > the nationalists beg to differ.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As per the traditional school, Indus valley has

flourished

> > for

> > > > > 1500

> > > > > > years or so , between 3000 bce to 1500 bce before the

> Aryans

> > > have

> > > > > > landed upon them to raze the civilization. While it is

> true

> > > that

> > > > > the

> > > > > > civilization has come to an abrupt end and some buildings

> > > looking

> > > > > > like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to say

> that

> > > the

> > > > > > civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the

> > same

> > > > > being

> > > > > > by Aryans.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed,

> > have

> > > > > never

> > > > > > bothered to settle down in the beautiful and evacuated

> city,

> > > > thus,

> > > > > > making their identity a well hidden secret perhaps for

> ever.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The main problem for the westerners have emanated from

two

> > > > counts:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They

> > neither

> > > > > could

> > > > > > believe nor digest the fact that these weak blacks could

> > have

> > > > such

> > > > > a

> > > > > > hoary past. Thus, they tried to underplay the Indian past

> as

> > > much

> > > > > as

> > > > > > they could. Also, it helped them politically to divide

the

> > > > Indians

> > > > > > by seeding the stories of division amongst indians.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The second problem that they have encountered is the

> > christian

> > > > > > belief of Genesis. As per the Bible, the world is only

> 4000

> > > years

> > > > > or

> > > > > > so old and every known piece of fact had to be interwined

> > into

> > > > > this

> > > > > > limited period of known world.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above

> > would

> > > > make

> > > > > > Indian history much older than the Biblic beginning of

the

> > > world

> > > > > and

> > > > > > apparently, this is heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and

> > > stitch

> > > > > > theories were floated in case of Indian past.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on

with

> > > > > > their " story making " , trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda

> > > (such

> > > > as

> > > > > > the story of Indra and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it

> suited

> > > > their

> > > > > > imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have studied

our

> > > > > > scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read

in

> > the

> > > > > > scriptures, he never knew English or he never had the

> > attitude

> > > to

> > > > > > recreate history from these holybooks. In any case,

> Indians

> > > were

> > > > > not

> > > > > > much bothered about History. (Till it was pointed out by

> > > > > westeners,

> > > > > > we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there was

hardly

> > > anyone

> > > > > to

> > > > > > protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian

> > > history

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for

ages,

> > > before

> > > > > > the nationalists have built up a stong school for

> themselves

> > > > > during

> > > > > > the late 80's.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has

> > > preceded

> > > > > > Indus valley civilization and tried to chronicle the

> > country's

> > > > > story

> > > > > > based on the literary sources. While westeners also have

> > used

> > > > > these

> > > > > > sources, they have depended heavily on the Buddhist and

> Jin

> > > > > > versions , which were somehow galore in apparent

> > > contradictions.

> > > > > > On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the

> > > puranic

> > > > > > sources as well as the classic works such as those of

> > Kalidasa

> > > > and

> > > > > > canakya.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 bce and Chandragupta

> > > maurya

> > > > > at

> > > > > > 1500 bce as against the western version of maurya's times

> > > being

> > > > in

> > > > > > 327 bce.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While the nationalists have have their share of mistakes,

> > the

> > > a

> > > > > fool

> > > > > > proof concept of Indian history can be developed and

such

> a

> > > day

> > > > > is

> > > > > > not really very far off. Thus, I share more beliefs of

the

> > > > > > nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , sree

nadh

> > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > My doubt is:

> > > > > > > What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at

> least

> > > 2000

> > > > > > years prior to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000

> or

> > > more

> > > > > > years between them. Supportive ideas -

> > > > > > > * There is no mention of such a civilization in

Vedas.

> > > > > > > * There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people

> > knew

> > > > > > Sanskrit.

> > > > > > > * There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the

> > Sindhu-

> > > > > > Saraswaty language.

> > > > > > > * Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty

language

> > > (since

> > > > > > being ancient?)

> > > > > > > * All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use

> > > Swara

> > > > > > chinhas, but not Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

> > > > > > > * Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty

> > > > civilization

> > > > > > seems to have lost its continuity, in the known

historical

> > > > period,

> > > > > > even at the time of Mouryas.

> > > > > > > * There are many archeological evidences to prove

that

> > > Sindhu-

> > > > > > Saraswaty people migrated to other parts of the world

(due

> > to

> > > > > dying

> > > > > > up of Saraswaty river?), and settled there.

> > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishorepatnaik09@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Let me put one thing very very clearly-The

> > Indian

> > > > > > chronology I

> > > > > > > follow is not that one which has been given by the

> > > > Britishers!!!!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has

> > > taken

> > > > > > place

> > > > > > > about 5000 years to our times( this is what I meant in

> my

> > > > > message

> > > > > > > and not Ramayan has preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years

> ago).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not

> > > without

> > > > > > > dispute. Once they have dated one layer, they have

> ASSUMED

> > > that

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > difference between each layer is 500 years and hence,

> the

> > > > > > > lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the

> > western

> > > > > > > historians of yester years, the so called aryan

invasion

> > > took

> > > > > > place

> > > > > > > around 1500 bce and the Vedas have taken place after

> that-

> > > with

> > > > > > say,

> > > > > > > (once more it is only baseless assumption) 200 years

> > between

> > > > > each

> > > > > > > veda! I really wonder why on earth people like you have

> > > never

> > > > > > asked

> > > > > > > the western historians for proof of their assumptions.

> > Thus,

> > > we

> > > > > > can

> > > > > > > safely reject the dating of indus valley. Of course, I

> > agree

> > > > > that

> > > > > > it

> > > > > > > is yet to be correctly(or atleast, logically and

> > universally

> > > > > > agreed)

> > > > > > > dated and till then, I am afraid we can only safely

take

> > it

> > > to

> > > > > be

> > > > > > > after the Mahabharat, because there was no mention of

> such

> > a

> > > > > mega

> > > > > > > civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove

> > that

> > > > > Indus

> > > > > > > valley civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in

> nature.

> > > But

> > > > > > > again, there is no universally accepted or logically

> > > concluded

> > > > > > > pattern in these attmepts. To such an extent, this

seems

> > to

> > > be

> > > > a

> > > > > > > civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned

> but

> > > not

> > > > > > > described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley

> civilziation

> > > might

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > slightly predated MB.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But to be frank, this is only presumption.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly,

> > there

> > > is

> > > > > not

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > single date which can be universally accepted. It is

> > indeed

> > > > true

> > > > > > > that it must be very very prior to MB.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must

> have

> > > taken

> > > > > > > place anywhere in betwen 9000 years ago (to which date

> the

> > > > > lineage

> > > > > > > of Nepalese is available) to 1,75,000 years ago (thnx

to

> > the

> > > > > > dating

> > > > > > > of the adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But i am not arguing on this count now because I am not

> > > > > convinced

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > any these arguements.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You are saying that it will take a long time to digest

> > what

> > > I

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > said about the chronology, but will you please give me

> one

> > > iota

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > evidence to prove your ( read that of the westeners)

> > > > chronology,

> > > > > > > either in research papers or by way of archaeology???

> > well,

> > > you

> > > > > > > might not be aware of this but let me assure you except

> > for

> > > a

> > > > > big

> > > > > > > gasbag of assumptions and assumptions,there is no such

> > proof

> > > or

> > > > > > > logic presented by any of the westeners.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you dont believe me, ask David Frawley.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , sree

> nadh

> > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> > > precedes

> > > > > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I

> > have

> > > > > > talked

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna

days

> > > > through

> > > > > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > > From where you got this maths?

> > > > > > > > i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000

> years ?!

> > > > > > > > Any supporting evidence?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as

> sayana,

> > > > > sangam

> > > > > > > age,

> > > > > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged

> to

> > > much

> > > > > > later

> > > > > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no

> comparison.

> > > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > > Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata

> > period?!!!!

> > > > > > > That argument would really take time to digest, also

due

> > to

> > > the

> > > > > > fact

> > > > > > > that it is presented with no supporting evidence

> (literary

> > > or

> > > > > > > otherwise)!

> > > > > > > > I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic

> > period

> > > > was

> > > > > > > before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate

> > that -

> > > > > > > > * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley

> > civilization

> > > and

> > > > > > > > * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic

> > > period !!!

> > > > > > > > And those who lived before supposed to have attacked

> > those

> > > > who

> > > > > > > lived after!

> > > > > > > > Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously

> > > putting " indus

> > > > > > > valley period " in that list or the like?

> > > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > Dear sreenadh,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your

> > mail.

> > > I

> > > > am

> > > > > > > > speaking of something and you seem to be speaking

> > > something

> > > > > > > entirely

> > > > > > > > different.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge

> is

> > > an

> > > > > > > > irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but

that

> > > Indra

> > > > > has

> > > > > > > > tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or

> that

> > he

> > > > has

> > > > > > > tried

> > > > > > > > to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is

> > also

> > > > > called

> > > > > > > > Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed

> > > > > > sachidevi's

> > > > > > > > father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously

> > described

> > > as

> > > > a

> > > > > > > > brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the

> > later

> > > > > > stories

> > > > > > > > always described the people from same families

> (belonging

> > > to

> > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending

> > whether

> > > the

> > > > > > > story

> > > > > > > > teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of

> > Vrtra

> > > is

> > > > a

> > > > > > > > brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but

> her

> > > > father

> > > > > > who

> > > > > > > > valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping

> her

> > is

> > > an

> > > > > > > asura.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So, in the pre caste days, the people who were

> described

> > > as

> > > > > > > brahmins

> > > > > > > > later belonged to the sect of Asuras.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The purusha suktam describes the fighting between

> devas

> > > and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > establised society(read the townships or janapadas-

> > > purusha

> > > > > > means

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and

> how

> > > this

> > > > > > > society

> > > > > > > > was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read

> war)

> > to

> > > > > > create

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > new society based on the four Varnas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers

> of

> > > Indra

> > > > > > > turned

> > > > > > > > out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a

> conglomeration

> > of

> > > > > panis

> > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > the vanquished society and the agriculturists from

the

> > > > society

> > > > > > > indra

> > > > > > > > came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the

> people

> > > who

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > simply workers came to be called sudras.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed

> > Vedas

> > > and

> > > > > > good

> > > > > > > > amount of knowledge but not in the way they existed

> > today.

> > > > The

> > > > > > > > changes in the society have changed the Vedas also

and

> > > most

> > > > of

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > sciences also have taken new shape.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the

> > Vedic

> > > > > > times,

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > astrology has concerned itself only with timing of

> > > > ritualistic

> > > > > > > > events.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > After the establishment of four fold society, the

> > > agriculture

> > > > > > has

> > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > in and also, the population has incresed manifold.

> Thus,

> > > the

> > > > > > > > agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of

> > the

> > > > > tools

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly

described

> > > what

> > > > > kind

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon

> the

> > > > moment

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > which the clouds are " impregnated " . It also has

> started

> > > > fixing

> > > > > > > > muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the

> growth.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > With the increase in population and number of trades

> and

> > > the

> > > > > > > > flourishment of private property, the jyotish has

> slowly

> > > > > started

> > > > > > > > telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place

prior

> > to

> > > the

> > > > > > > Ramayan

> > > > > > > > times.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly

> > > precedes

> > > > > > > > mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I

> > have

> > > > > > talked

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna

days

> > > > through

> > > > > > > > mahabharat times.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Whereas all the names, events and times (such as

> sayana,

> > > > > sangam

> > > > > > > age,

> > > > > > > > indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged

> to

> > > much

> > > > > > later

> > > > > > > > times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no

> comparison.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM

> > > TALKING

> > > > > AND

> > > > > > > WHAT

> > > > > > > > YOU ARE TALKING>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Please call me soon after you reply this mail.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > , sree

> > nadh

> > > > > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > > > Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the

> > > previous

> > > > > > > > message by you. The primary reaction is –

> > > > > > > > > * Such stories are not going to help. Due to the

> > > > > following

> > > > > > > > reasons -

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with

> > > > > > > Vedas,

> > > > > > > > but much before than that. It was only stellar

> astrology

> > > and

> > > > > > > Tropical

> > > > > > > > calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system.

> > The

> > > > > system

> > > > > > > we

> > > > > > > > follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the

> > > ruminants

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra

> the

> > > > > concept

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of

zodiac

> > > with

> > > > > > Prana

> > > > > > > > (breath) are all part of the Tantric system.

> > > > > > > > > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the

> > > subject

> > > > > > > > dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate

persons.

> > It

> > > is

> > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty,

> Arya

> > > > > samajam,

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit

quotes

> > > that

> > > > > says

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > same as well.

> > > > > > > > > 3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a

> > interpretation

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a

> > > single

> > > > > good

> > > > > > > > translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is

stated

> > in

> > > the

> > > > > > > Vedic

> > > > > > > > literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –

> > > Adhidaivika

> > > > > > > (divine-

> > > > > > > > assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika

> > (spiritual)

> > > etc

> > > > > > > concept

> > > > > > > > should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have

a

> > > single

> > > > > > > > interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is

> another

> > > > > > statement

> > > > > > > > that the Vedas should be interpreted based on

> Shadangas -

> >

> > > > i.e.

> > > > > 6

> > > > > > > > branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha),

> Ethics

> > > and

> > > > > Laws

> > > > > > > > (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha),

> > Grammar

> > > > > > > > (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single

> > > > > > > interpretation

> > > > > > > > of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the

> fact

> > > the

> > > > > > > Sayana

> > > > > > > > Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original

> > > meaning

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it is Yaska who

> tried

> > > to

> > > > > > uphold

> > > > > > > > the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of

> the

> > > > > > > > > stupid text " Karma vipakam " , an astrological text,

> by

> > > > Sayana

> > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed

> astrology

> > > as

> > > > > > well!

> > > > > > > If

> > > > > > > > you don't have " Karma vipakam " with you, just have a

> > look

> > > at

> > > > > > > > Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in

that

> > > > text.

> > > > > > > > > 4) How many of us know that " Agnimeele purohitam "

> (the

> > > > > > > first

> > > > > > > > sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is

> > > speaking

> > > > > > about

> > > > > > > > the use of vowels? How many of us know that in

Rigveda

> > > both

> > > > > > > Sidereal

> > > > > > > > and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described?

> > > > > > > > > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in

Vedas,

> > > they

> > > > > > > > contain just the seeds of most of the Indian

knowledge

> > > > > branches.

> > > > > > > The

> > > > > > > > science, maths and technology had grown far from that

> by

> > > now.

> > > > > > > > > 6) There not even a single proof in support of

Aryan

> > > > > > > > Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic

> > slokas.

> > > If

> > > > > > > people

> > > > > > > > like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are

> > rather

> > > > > > related

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between

> > > vedic

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > non-

> > > > > > > > vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be

> your

> > > > > answer?

> > > > > > > > > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large

> > > > > > > > archeological evidences, where is the archeological

> > > evidence

> > > > > for

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > separate " Aryan " culture existed here?! (Or even a

> > > separate

> > > > > > vedic

> > > > > > > > culture, except the literature, can we show ruined

> > > buildings,

> > > > > > > places

> > > > > > > > where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the

> even

> > > the

> > > > > > ruins

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see

> before

> > > us

> > > > > > > > is " history accepting stories, with out seeking or

> > > depending

> > > > > on

> > > > > > > > Archeological evidences " ! What is the evidence

> provided

> > by

> > > > the

> > > > > > > Sidhu-

> > > > > > > > Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of

> > people

> > > of

> > > > > > > > Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of

> newly

> > > > found

> > > > > > > city

> > > > > > > > under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same

> > > period

> > > > or

> > > > > > > prior

> > > > > > > > to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not –

> > then

> > > is

> > > > > > there

> > > > > > > > any archeological proof that it is related to vedic

or

> > > epic

> > > > > > > culture?

> > > > > > > > (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas

had

> > > > already

> > > > > > put

> > > > > > > us

> > > > > > > > into enough confusion with there various misleading

> > > > > > > > > interpretations, and not providing much

> archeological

> > > > proof!)

> > > > > > > > > 8) If we study the literature and (astrology,

> > > > > > > architecture,

> > > > > > > > religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian

> people

> > in

> > > > > > > Sankham

> > > > > > > > period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-

> > > Saraswathy

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy

to

> > > > > > understand

> > > > > > > > that –

> > > > > > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic

civilization

> > > > > > > (?)

> > > > > > > > and Dravidian Civilization are entirely different –

> even

> > > > > though

> > > > > > > much

> > > > > > > > mix-up took place in the later period.

> > > > > > > > > · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most

> > > > > > > scientifically

> > > > > > > > advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.

> > > > > > > > > · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the

> three,

> > > > > > > but

> > > > > > > > it was the one later helped in the survival of most

of

> > > > ancient

> > > > > > > > knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and

> > > English

> > > > > > > > invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural

> > factors.

> > > > > > > > > · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether

> north

> > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > south of India have little in common with the Vedic

> > gods,

> > > > even

> > > > > > > though

> > > > > > > > later the local concepts of various gods got merged

> with

> > > some

> > > > > > half

> > > > > > > > vedic puranic gods.

> > > > > > > > > · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

> > > > > > > thought

> > > > > > > > that existed almost from Vedic period can not be

> > > neglected,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > they

> > > > > > > > were almost like a separate culture, similar to

> > Dravidian

> > > or

> > > > > > > Vedic.

> > > > > > > > This makes the differentiation of culture and

religion

> > > very

> > > > > > > > difficult. These streams should be valued and given

> due

> > > place

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be

> astrology

> > > or

> > > > > > vastu

> > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > any other subject.

> > > > > > > > > 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much

> > > advanced

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware

of

> > > > > > > mathematics,

> > > > > > > > astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence

(as

> > > told

> > > > by

> > > > > > > > historians and archeologists) for the continuous

> > > continuation

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries,

> > pots

> > > > > etc)

> > > > > > > even

> > > > > > > > today?

> > > > > > > > > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-

> > > > > > > Saraswathy

> > > > > > > > civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy

> > > civilization

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > supposed to have used a language without swara

chinhas

> > > > (symols

> > > > > > > > indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian

> subcontinent

> > > now

> > > > > > there

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > almost not even a single language that exist this

> > > > > > characteristics

> > > > > > > > including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only

> > such

> > > > > > language

> > > > > > > I

> > > > > > > > know is English, (there could many others as well I

am

> > not

> > > an

> > > > > > > expert

> > > > > > > > on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-

> > related

> > > the

> > > > > > > > language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way

> to

> > > > > English

> > > > > > > > which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't

> > know,

> > > > when

> > > > > > > > English originated). Do you have any clue, why the

> > > language

> > > > of

> > > > > > > Sidhu-

> > > > > > > > Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > > it

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > used in plenty?

> > > > > > > > > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when

the

> > non-

> > > > > > > vedic

> > > > > > > > gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular

> > > > religion),

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is

the

> > > > > knowledge

> > > > > > > base

> > > > > > > > and power that helped the Tantric system to survive

> and

> > > even

> > > > > > merge

> > > > > > > > the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the

temples

> > > exists

> > > > > > > today

> > > > > > > > are the products of Tantric system and not part of

> vedic

> > > > > > culture!

> > > > > > > > Vedas are " used by " the Tantrics and the popular

> > majority

> > > to

> > > > > > > > safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much

> > mixing

> > > > took

> > > > > > > place,

> > > > > > > > the original system survived and the vedic system got

> > > merged

> > > > > > into

> > > > > > > it!

> > > > > > > > Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other

> > subject –

> > > it

> > > > > is

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > fact, we can find!

> > > > > > > > > 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then

> it

> > > is

> > > > > > > better

> > > > > > > > to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than

> > making

> > > > > > > stories

> > > > > > > > > 13) The last but the most important statement is –

> It

> > is

> > > > > > > > completely wrong to make stories with conducting an

> > > extensive

> > > > > > > > research study on the subject. It is a violation of

> > > learning

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > research principles! Even after study, baseless story

> > > making

> > > > > > > should

> > > > > > > > be avoided.

> > > > > > > > > 14) We are astrologers and better talk about the

> > subject

> > > we

> > > > > > > > know, rather than start doing story making for

> > history.

> > > > The

> > > > > > > > historians (they are already hysterical) are doing

> that

> > > for

> > > > > > long,

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of

the

> > > study

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > history is so pathetic in our country that, even a

> > History

> > > > > post

> > > > > > > > graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient

> > script,

> > > or

> > > > > > how

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect

> archeological

> > > > > > evidences,

> > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > the worst even the outlines or system used by his own

> > > > subject!

> > > > > > > > Hurah…! To all…! )

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I

> am

> > > > > > > supporter

> > > > > > > > of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the

> > fact

> > > > that

> > > > > I

> > > > > > > am a

> > > > > > > > supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all

> other

> > > > > > available

> > > > > > > > type of knowledge streams in ancient India.

> > > > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > kishore mohan <kishore_future@> wrote: I wish there

> is

> > a

> > > > > > person

> > > > > > > > who is good enuf in History in the group who

> > > > > > > > > could have commented on my post on para to para

> basis.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > K

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ,

> sree

> > > nadh

> > > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Kishore ji,

> > > > > > > > > > Read the full message first! I have never argued

> > that

> > > > > > astrology

> > > > > > > > > originated in that period or that that planetory

> > > position

> > > > was

> > > > > > > > > important! I have clearly stated it at the end of

> the

> > > mail !

> > > > > > > > > > I was given only to indicate that, planetory

> > position

> > > as

> > > > > > > > > indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur.

> > > > > > > > > > ==>

> > > > > > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its

origins

> > in

> > > > > times

> > > > > > > much

> > > > > > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > > > > > <==

> > > > > > > > > > I know that, agree to it completly. But you

should

> > > know

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > JHora full version allows chart calculation only

> upto

> > BC

> > > > > 5400,

> > > > > > > and I

> > > > > > > > > was looking for a planetory position that fullfills

> > > > > > Moolatrikona

> > > > > > > > > planetory position at least to an extend, as just

> part

> > > of

> > > > > > > research.

> > > > > > > > > It is not even necessory that such planetory

> position

> > > has

> > > > any

> > > > > > > > > relation with the origin of astrological system.

> That

> > > too I

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > stated at the end of the mail. But you was

> impatiant,

> > > even

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > read

> > > > > > > > it

> > > > > > > > > till the end. No worries - it is ok.

> > > > > > > > > > Love,

> > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > kishore mohan wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Shreenadh,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable,

> > > spiritual

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > intellectual but when it comes to History, they

> act

> > > most

> > > > > > > > ridiculous

> > > > > > > > > > and gross.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins

> in

> > > times

> > > > > > much

> > > > > > > > > > earlier than what you have indicated.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The Origins of astrology have started with the

> > > Jyotish,

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > Vedang.

> > > > > > > > > > In Vedic times, they were mostly concerned with

> > timing

> > > > the

> > > > > > > vedic

> > > > > > > > > > events such as Rituals and festivals.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in

> > this

> > > > > > society

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly

cow

> > > > rearing

> > > > > > > people

> > > > > > > > > > living in both forests and towns. They were

mostly

> > > helped

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > > > > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence,

> > these

> > > > > > people

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as

> > well

> > > as

> > > > > > > > protecting

> > > > > > > > > > their masters. However, I do not think there was

> the

> > > > > concept

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > private property in the strict sense of the word.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > There were commercial traders called Panis. While

> > > these

> > > > > > people

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture

> was

> > > non

> > > > > > > existent

> > > > > > > > > > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a

> > > > > systematic

> > > > > > > way.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Indra, whose travel has been established from

Iraq

> > > during

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > time

> > > > > > > > > > of great deluge, has come to introduce

cultivation

> > of

> > > > rice

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > ruler

> > > > > > > > > > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy

> fighting

> > > that

> > > > > > took

> > > > > > > > > place

> > > > > > > > > > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and

> the

> > > > people

> > > > > > who

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting

killed

> > in

> > > the

> > > > > > > hands of

> > > > > > > > > > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime

> place

> > > in

> > > > > > > RgVeda,

> > > > > > > > The

> > > > > > > > > > society has undergone heavy changes, especially

> with

> > > the

> > > > > > > > > development

> > > > > > > > > > of such new concepts as private property and

caste

> > > > system.

> > > > > > The

> > > > > > > > same

> > > > > > > > > > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein

> > the

> > > King

> > > > > > > > > > sacrifices his body to Devas.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > More over, there are several knowledgeable people

> > who

> > > > came

> > > > > > > along

> > > > > > > > > > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps ,

Brhspati.

> > > > > > Certainly,

> > > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > > > kind of people has a hand in giving new direction

> to

> > > the

> > > > > > > sciences

> > > > > > > > > > already established in the Land of India.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This was a time of consolidation of ancient

> > knowledge,

> > > > > > > synthesis

> > > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is

at

> > > this

> > > > > time

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > the Jyotish was practically used for timing

events

> > of

> > > > > mundane

> > > > > > > > > > affairs, to start with, those connected with

> > > agriculture.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the

> daily

> > > > lives

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > people started remembering the stars in which one

> > was

> > > > > born,

> > > > > > > timing

> > > > > > > > > > the marriages and important Meta physical events

> > such

> > > as

> > > > > > > > > Coronations

> > > > > > > > > > etc.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people

more

> > > > > depended

> > > > > > > upon

> > > > > > > > > > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several

> > > books

> > > > > were

> > > > > > > > > written

> > > > > > > > > > and the samhitas were innumerable in number and

> > there

> > > > were

> > > > > > many

> > > > > > > > > > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading

> > > charts.

> > > > It

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > Sage

> > > > > > > > > > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile

> all

> > > the

> > > > > > > samhitas

> > > > > > > > > > into one book and have given the most authentic

> set

> > of

> > > > > rules

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > astrology for the posterity of mankind.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was

> > > already

> > > > > > born

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100

> years

> > or

> > > so.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of

> > astrology

> > > by

> > > > > > > several

> > > > > > > > > > thousands of years. More over, the name of

> > > Prgjyotishpur

> > > > > > (and

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is

> > > > connected

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > of black magic but not with astrology.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of

> > events

> > > as

> > > > > > given

> > > > > > > > > > above, it is virtually impossible to find out

when

> > > they

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > taken

> > > > > > > > > > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find

> out

> > > the

> > > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > of astrology in its present form also!

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Hope you will agree with me

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Kishore patnaik

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >