FW: Vedic Astrology - the greatest fraud on the Vedas!

[Guest guest]

Shri Sreenadhji,

Namaskar!

Here is a post (No. 559 dt. 16.2.2006)from HinduCalendar to Shri P V R

Narasimha Rao. I did not receive any response. I do not know whether it

has appeared on any of the forums, including " Vedic-Astrology " . I wonder

whether it is asking you too much to forward this post to that forum

to elicit their views.

Regards,

AKK

HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved

wrote:

 

Shri P.V.R. Narashima Raoji,

Naamaskar!

My attention was drawn by Shri Jyotishi a.k.a. Shri Jai Maharaj to the

site http://tinyurl.com/9rukh

 

I was delighted to see that some lady had posted my views

regarding " Vedic astrology---the greatest fraud on the Vedas " on " Astro

Experts Forum " on July 3, 2005. However, I was simultaneously amused to see

your comments and

I quote them here:

" Regarding the history of astrology, this gentleman

has his own unfounded views, just as I have my own

unfounded views, and we don't know who is correct.

He may think that Indians did not know any astronomy

before 2nd century AD. But planets and

rasis/nakshatras occupied by them on various dates

were mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana and by Vyasa

in Mahabharata. The author probably thinks that they

lived after 2nd century AD. Well, he may be right.

Or he may be badly off. "

 

I really appreciate your frankness about your own limitations about

the fact whether or not thee is any predictive astrology in the Vedas.

Till the time of visiting this (tinyur1) site, I was unaware of your

Having commented on my views. Thus unaware of all these facts, I joined

the forum " Vedic-Astrology " on September 8, 2005, which is moderated/owned

by you.

And on September 23, when I sent some posts, they were received back

and I was asked to join that group! When I tried to join, actually

rejoin, " Vedic Astrology " group I got the following curt message

 

Join This Group Join This Group Help

<http://help./help/us/groups/>

You have been banned from this group by the group moderator (

ID banned: a_krishen). You may not join the group vedic astrology. "

 

What was more surprising was that I was " banned " without any

warnings! It is also most amusing that you did not reply even a single post

of mine on that forum!

On the " preamble " of that forum, you have presented yourself

as " Jyotish Guru P V R Narasimha Rao " However, at the same time, you are

yourself not sure of the fact as to whether the " science " that you are

imparting as " Vedic astrology " to your " disciples " is really Vedic or not!

What an anachronism!

Secondly, there are about 5000 members i.e. " Vedic astrologers " on that

" Vedic astrology " forum! Instead of countering my arguments with the

help of such a battery of " experts " in you forum, you just chose the most

un-Vedic way of banning a dissenter! In other words, you were not really

that unsure that what you were/are imparting is not really Vedic astrology,

but something against the real letter and spirit of the Vedas and did

not want any dissenting voices to be expressed!. Since if you were really

unsure about the Vedic dictum about astrology, and wanted to make sure as

to what the real Vedic canons were about such gimmicks, you would certainly

have grabbed an opportunity to thrash the matter across the forum and

entered into a discussion to resolve the issue one way or the other!

 

Now about your views regarding " Vedanga Jyotisha " being a book of

Predictive astrology, which I quote:

" Just FYI, the BA distance education course offered by SJC and Kavikulaguru

Kalidas Sankrit University is called BA in 'Vedanga Jyotish'. That is a very

appropriate Sanskrit name for Vedic astrology " .

It appears you have not read the book Vedanga Jyotisha at all but

just heard its name! It has been published by Indian National Science

Academy, Bahdurshah Zaffar Marg, New Delhi-110002 and though it is out of

print with them, but if you ask for it, maybe they will give you a Xerox

copy of the same. However, let me tell you something in brief about this

work i.e. the Vedanga Jyotisha:

It is the first astronomical work of Indian astronomy compiled by Lagadha

around 13th/14th century BCE, around 35° latitude North, which means, in all

probability, it was compiled in Kashmir! It comprises 36 verses in

all. The fourth verse of this work is very clear " Ganita " i.e. calculation

(and not " Phalita " i.e. prediction!) is the crown of all shastras " . It

also emphasizes " Since special timings are required for performing Vedic

rituals, one must know how to calculate those timings. It is for that very

purpose that this work (viz. the Vedanga Jyotisha) is being compiled " .

Since it helps in arriving at calculating proper timings for rituals, that

is why it is the " eye of the Veds " . (Literally, the statement has been

repeated by Bhaskaracharya in Sidhanta Shiromani of 12th century AD, and

even in other sidhantas, we do not find any " acharya " asking us to

calculated horoscopes from them! Even Shishyadivridhida has said the same

thing i.e. the jyotisha shastra is meant to calculate proper timings of

rituals!)

 

To return to Vedanga Jyotisha, all it does is give the methodology of

calculating the start of the solar and lunar Tapah/Magha etc months

and Pratipat etc. tithis besides kritika etc. nakshatras. The start of

the solar year and the solar month Tapah-cum-Magha is Uttarayana, and

the sage Lagadha has made it amply clear that by Uttarayana he really means

the shortest day of the year (and not the one envisaged by almighty

Lahiri or " Vedic astrologers " !) He also advises to calculate the duration

of the day from the Ayanas and Vishuva - and as you know, both these terms

are anathema for " Vedic astrologers " since such terms confirm that our

Vedic Rishis really followed a seasonal year, which we call as tropical

These days!

The nakshatra division starts from Krittikas and there is absolutely

No indication of any Rashi like Mesha etc. nor of the planets like

Budha, Mangal, Brihaspati, Shukra,---least of all the much dreaded Shani!

Same is the case with a slightly later work viz. " Yajur Jyotisha " -

it is almost identical with that of Rik-Jyotisham and has a commentary by

Somakara (as quoted by Pt. S.B. Dikshit in his Bharatiya Jyotish). Thus

there are no planets or Rashis in Yajur Jyotisham either!

Then we come to Atharva Jyotisha, which is said to be a work of

about 5th century BCE. Even that work does not refer to any planets nor to

Rashis!

As such, honestly, I do not see any justification in anyone calling

predictive gimmicks, especially the so called nirayana gimmicks,

as " Vedanga Jyotisha " , much less " Vedic astrology " since neither the Vedas

nor the " Vedanga Jyotisha " refer to any Rashis (astrological signs) nor

Mangal, Budha etc. planets! It is thus a real fraud on the Vedas to call

any predictive gimmicks as " Vedic astrology " .

 

IT IS ALSO AGAINST THE LETTER AND SPIRITI OF CONSUMER PROTECTION ACT.

 

Regarding the indication of Rashis etc. in the Valmiki Ramayana,

there is an interesting discussion going on on this topic at

HinduCalendar

The main purpose of this forum is to streamline our calendars in

Accordance with the Vedic canons instead of the whims and fancies of

" almighty " Lahiris and Ramans and Khargats and Fagans etc. I call

them " almighty " since they appear to have hypnotized the entire Hindu

community, including some of the real scholars, to to a Lahiri or

Ramana or Kharegart or Fagan Rashichakra for our Vedic festivals as well as

Muhurtas just because " Vedic astrologers " are using such billions of

Rashichakras!

There are no restrictions on entries nor are any " dissenting " members

banned. In fact, dissenting views are as welcome as the " agreeing "

ones.

Since it is a forum moderated (just notionally, though) by me, you

may not like to join it, I suggest you enter into discussions at

IndianCivilization since that forum also

welcomes anyone who can " enliven " the discussions,

irrespective of whatever the views maybe!

As an alternative, you may join

hinduism_environment

since there are also one is free to express ones views and in spite

of some " footpaths " and " genuine-friends " recommending to the moderator to

ban me, he has not responded one way or the other (unlike Vedic-Astrology

forum), which means the forum is really neutral!

 

I am sending a copy of this " reply " to " the Astro Experts " but I am

not sure it will appear there since I do not have a MSN id, nor do I want to

 

go in for additional ids at this stage. However, I am requesting Shri

Jyotishi to forward it there.

With regards,

Avtar Krishen Kaul

 

Vinita_kum1

<http://groups.msn.com/TheAstroexperts/profile?user=Vinita%5Fkum1%E2%

9C%93>

(Original Message)

7/3/2005 12:30 PM

 

 

I thought this is a pretty interesting discussion on the Vedic-

Astrology

forum for our digestion:

 

> > Vedic astrology - the greatest fraud on the Vedas

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul, President, All India Calendar

> Reform Committee

> > Predictive gimmicks of " Vedic astrology " are being

> peddled all around us these days! However, there are

> no Rashis (astrological signs) in the Vedas though

> nakshatras i.e. the real constellations have been

> referred to times without number. So have the Sun

> and the moon. Similarly, Brihaspati (Jupiter) and

> Shukra (Vena--Venus) have been indicated at certain

> places, but only with reference to their being

> preceptors of Devas and Asuras respectively.

> Rahu/Kethu have been indicated as Swarbhanu and that

> also only in the context of eclipses. Thus planets

> like Budha (Mercury), Mangal (Mars) and the much

> dreaded Shani (Saturn) are conspicuous by their

> absence in the Vedas! Besides, the 3500 year old

> Vedanga Jyotisha, the earliest work of Vedic

> astronomy, just enunciates the methodology of

> calculating tithi, nakshatra, solar and lunar months

> like Tapah/Magha etc. apart from Ayanas and

> adhikamasas-intercalary months. There also no rashis

> (astrological signs) have been mentioned nor any

> other planets except the sun and the moon. Same is

> the case with Yajur and Atharva Jyotisha. Jain

> astronomical works like Surya Pragyapti of the early

> centuries of pre-Christian era also are silent about

> Rashis and planets! Garga Hora is also silent to the

> extent that not even weekdays have been mentioned in

> any of these shastras!

> >

> > Surya Sidhanta of about 2nd century AD is said to

> be the first work of astronomy containing details of

> planetary calculations with reference to ecliptic

> and the Equinoxes etc. The Surya sidhanta that we

> have these days gives entirely different fundamental

> arguments from the Surya Sidhanta as given by

> Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika! As everybody

> knows, this Surya Sidhanta is supposed to have been

> " revealed " by the sun god to a Yavana named Maya!

> Surprisingly, even Varahamihira himself refers to

> yavanas as " mlechhas " ! In other words, the sun god

> did not find even a single Hindu soul in the whole

> of the pre-Christian India worthy of such " divine "

> knowledge that he had to reveal it to a " mlechha " !

> Do you know why? Because we in India did not believe

> in our fate being " revealed " to us! We believed in

> " doing our duty " ! As per the Gita, when Arjuna said

> that he was not sure as to whether Kauravas or

> Pandavas would win the battle, Bhagwan Krishna did

> not ask him to go and enquire from a jyotishi

> whether he would win or lose the war but He just

> advised him that if he (Arjuna) got killed in the

> battlefield he would go to the heavens and if he won

> the war he would be the " master of all he surveyed " .

> Clearly, Lord Krishna Himself did not believe in

> " fate being revealed " and " remedial measure

> suggested as per planetary indications " .

> >

> > The meaning is very clear: There were no

> jyotishis around then and if there were any, they

> were not to be consulted!

> >

> > Not only our shastras but even the sidhantas like

> the Surya sidhanta or Aryabhati etc. have never

> asked us to prepare any horoscopes from them and

> then find out how we were going to fare in our

> lives! In fact they are quite silent about

> predictive astrology. Right from the Vedanga

> Jyotisha to Sidhanta Shiromani - the alpha and omega

> of Hindu astronomy, the sidhantas say that for

> determining the proper timings for conducting Vedic

> rituals - yajnyas--- these sidhantas are to be used.

> It is only Varahamihira who has written something on

> predictive astrology and also compiled

> Panchasidhantika! But we must not forget that he has

> not produced any single original astronomical work

> of his own but just compiled a work of five

> sidhantas! Ironically, in all those five sidhantas

> viz. i) Paulisha, (i) Romaka, (iii) Vasishtha (iv)

> Pitamaha, and (v) Surya Sidhanta, only the last one

> viz. the Surya sidhanta gives the fundamental

> arguments for planetary calculations! And Varaha has

> referred to it as the " most accurate " one. By

> implication the Surya Sidhanta we have with us today

> is not " that accurate " either! In other words, even

> the Greco-Chaldean planetary astronomy imported by

> us in India has been tampered with.

> >

> > Not surprisingly, Varahamihira has used more Greek

> words in his works of predictive astrology like

> Brihat Jatakam and Brihat (Varahi) Samhita etc, thus

> showing his " indebtedness " to Greek astrologers!

> >

> > Even if we presume for a moment that our ancestors

> of post Varahamihira had nothing else to do except

> for preparing horoscopes, the funniest point is that

> even Varahamihira himself would not have been able

> to prepare his own horoscope correctly from his own

> much praised Surya Sidhanta since the fundamental

> arguments in that Surya Sidhanta also are absolutely

> wrong as per modern astronomical data, courtesy

> NASA/JPL Same is the case with all the other later

> sidhantas including the Sidhanta Shiromani of

> Bhaskara - II of 12th century!

> >

> > It is thus clear that to call any predictive

> system as Vedic is playing a great fraud on the

> Vedas. It is also against the Consumer Protection

> Act since it is a misrepresentation of facts. It has

> also resulted in our becoming a laughing stock in

> the eyes of the whole world since we are celebrating

> geographical phenomena like Winter/Summer Solstice

> (Makara/Karka Sankrantis) and Spring/Autumn

> Equinoxes (Mesha/Tula sankrantis) also at least

> after 24 days of the real phenomena thanks to the so

> called non-existent nirayana rashichakras galore

> invented by " Vedic astrologers " .

> >

> > We have to put a full stop to all this and every

> Hindu is requested to kindly stop celebrating

> festivals on wrong days like Pitramavasya on the day

> of actual Dipavali and so on.

------------------> Namaste,

>

> Well, Jyotisha may or may not be mentioned in Vedas.

> But that is immaterial. It is one of the Vedangas

> (veda+angas, i.e. limbs of Veda). RigVeda, YajurVeda

> etc are the four heads of the Veda Purusha (the

> personification of Vedic knowledge). There are other

> limbs of Veda Purusha and Jyotisha IS mentioned as

> one, i.e. as a Vedanga.

>

> So I personally don't see anything wrong in the name

> " Vedic astrology " . It is a very apt name.

>

> Just FYI, the BA distance education course offered

> by SJC and Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sankrit University

> is called BA in " Vedanga Jyotish " . That is a very

> appropriate Sanskrit name for Vedic astrology.

>

> Regarding the history of astrology, this gentleman

> has his own unfounded views, just as I have my own

> unfounded views, and we don't know who is correct.

> He may think that Indians did not know any astronomy

> before 2nd century AD. But planets and

> rasis/nakshatras occupied by them on various dates

> were mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana and by Vyasa

> in Mahabharata. The author probably thinks that they

> lived after 2nd century AD. Well, he may be right.

> Or he may be badly off.

>

> So it is useless to talk about the historical

> factors.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

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..atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkhac001728x90xWBCBRB00110msn/direct/01/ "

target= " _blank " ><img

src= " http://view.atdmt.com/MSN/view/msnnkhac001728x90xWBCBRB00110msn/

direct/

01/ " /></a></script>

 

 

 

 

 

The Astroexperts TheAstroexperts

 

 

> Well, Jyotisha may or may not be mentioned in Vedas.

> But that is immaterial. It is one of the Vedangas

> (veda+angas, i.e. limbs of Veda). RigVeda, YajurVeda

> etc are the four heads of the Veda Purusha (the

> personification of Vedic knowledge). There are other

> limbs of Veda Purusha and Jyotisha IS mentioned as

> one, i.e. as a Vedanga.

>

> So I personally don't see anything wrong in the name

> " Vedic astrology " . It is a very apt name.

>

> Just FYI, the BA distance education course offered

> by SJC and Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sankrit University

> is called BA in " Vedanga Jyotish " . That is a very

> appropriate Sanskrit name for Vedic astrology.

>

> Regarding the history of astrology, this gentleman

> has his own unfounded views, just as I have my own

> unfounded views, and we don't know who is correct.

> He may think that Indians did not know any astronomy

> before 2nd century AD. But planets and

> rasis/nakshatras occupied by them on various dates

> were mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana and by Vyasa

> in Mahabharata. The author probably thinks that they

> lived after 2nd century AD. Well, he may be right.

> Or he may be badly off.

>

> So it is useless to talk about the historical

> factors.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Dear Kaul ji,

 

==>

> I do not know whether it has appeared on any of the forums,

> including " Vedic-Astrology " . I wonder whether it is asking you

> too much to forward this post to that forum to elicit their views.

<==

Ha...Ha...Don't worry.. We are equal. ) My mails also does not

(and will not) appear in vedic astrology group, because prior to

that it self they will get moderated and deleted. That was the

fate of may of my previous mails regarding pdf files (astrology

reading material) uploaded and shared through rapidshare.com.

 

==>

> It is the first astronomical work of Indian astronomy compiled by

> Lagadha around 13th/14th century BCE, around 35° latitude North,

> which means, in all probability, it was compiled in Kashmir!

> It comprises 36 verses in all.

<==

Oh! Does the text point to 35° latitude North?! That is a cute

info! Then it really matches with the existence of Sindhu-Saraswati

civilization, and someone who continued the Vedic tradition! As per

the archeological evidence the drying up of Saraswati river happened

around BC 1900 and there is all possibility that the culture

survived there till BC 1400. Thanks for the info. Be proud of the

contributions of your native land to indian culture man! - Brihat

Yoga Vasishta, Vedanga Jyotisha, Many Tantric texts the list could

be long! As you may know Subhash Kak also belongs to Kashmir and I

think he has written some articles about the literary contributions

of Kashmir to Indian culture as well.

 

==>

jyotirved

<==

Initially I was bit confused about that id - I was wondering

whether it is some other person. Because the earlier id you used

was " a_krishen " . Why these many ids man! - Please don't confuse

us.

Here nobody is going to ban you or start a fight against; if not

you start abusing or name calling people directly. Let us leave

those people (B.V. Raman, PVR, Rath, Fagan, Krishnamoorti let it any

one else or any one in this forum), and discuss the subject.

I hope we agree on the fact that we are more interested in the

subject under discussion, than in people. There would be many such

in all generations and we are none better than them, trying to

popularize our convictions; at least among the people who come in

contact with us.

==>

vedic astrology

<==

As far as the name vedic astrology is concerned I don't know how

much correct the term is. I am yet to have a clear view about how

much part of it is vedic or how much is non-vedic. Only the on

going " Swadhaya " (Self study) will reveal. This group is out side

the vedic category in . As you may have noticed this

groups is listed under " Religion & Beliefs > Divination > Astrology

> " and not under " Religion & Beliefs > Divination > Astrology >

Vedic " . If we limit ourselves to Vedic, where will we put the

Tantric, Jain, Budhist, Draveedian and other contributions to

astrology; all of which falls under " ancient indian astrology " as

the group name suggests. The group is neither limited to Nirayana

Astrology alone as well - because as you have notice Tropical

astrology and calendar systems were also part of the ancient indian

culture.

If you are against " all kind of prediction techniques " then we can

not help, because this group IS for the discussion of " astrology " .

As you could see the word " astrology " itself point to " predictive

astrology " and if the predictive part is removed it is " astronomy "

alone. The scholarly discussion or teaching of astronomy will

improve the knowledge level the group members, but please remember

that it deviates a bit from the aim of the group; if the sole energy

(of the group) is spend on the same.

If you feel that " all kind of prediction techniques " are useless

then we can not help because that is your conviction alone and

others have every right to hold their view.

So let us analyze and discuss things, accepting people for what

they are; while holding the purpose of this discussion group in

mind. The knowledge is so vast, and we are so small, and so be

humble in our search and study.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

 

, " jyotirved "

<jyotirved wrote:

> Shri Sreenadhji,

> Namaskar!

> Here is a post (No. 559 dt. 16.2.2006)from HinduCalendar to Shri P

V R

> Narasimha Rao. I did not receive any response. I do not know

whether it

> has appeared on any of the forums, including " Vedic-Astrology " .

I wonder

> whether it is asking you too much to forward this post to that

forum

> to elicit their views.

> Regards,

> AKK

 

> HinduCalendar , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@>

> wrote:

>

> Shri P.V.R. Narashima Raoji,

> Naamaskar!

> My attention was drawn by Shri Jyotishi a.k.a. Shri Jai Maharaj

to the

> site http://tinyurl.com/9rukh

>

> I was delighted to see that some lady had posted my views

> regarding " Vedic astrology---the greatest fraud on the Vedas "

on " Astro

> Experts Forum " on July 3, 2005. However, I was simultaneously

amused to see

> your comments and

> I quote them here:

> " Regarding the history of astrology, this gentleman

> has his own unfounded views, just as I have my own

> unfounded views, and we don't know who is correct.

> He may think that Indians did not know any astronomy

> before 2nd century AD. But planets and

> rasis/nakshatras occupied by them on various dates

> were mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana and by Vyasa

> in Mahabharata. The author probably thinks that they

> lived after 2nd century AD. Well, he may be right.

> Or he may be badly off. "

>

> I really appreciate your frankness about your own limitations

about

> the fact whether or not thee is any predictive astrology in the

Vedas.

> Till the time of visiting this (tinyur1) site, I was unaware of

your

> Having commented on my views. Thus unaware of all these facts, I

joined

> the forum " Vedic-Astrology " on September 8, 2005, which is

moderated/owned

> by you.

> And on September 23, when I sent some posts, they were received

back

> and I was asked to join that group! When I tried to join,

actually

> rejoin, " Vedic Astrology " group I got the following curt message

>

> Join This Group Join This Group Help

> <http://help./help/us/groups/>

> You have been banned from this group by the group moderator

(

> ID banned: a_krishen). You may not join the group vedic-

astrology. "

>

> What was more surprising was that I was " banned " without any

> warnings! It is also most amusing that you did not reply even a

single post

> of mine on that forum!

> On the " preamble " of that forum, you have presented yourself

> as " Jyotish Guru P V R Narasimha Rao " However, at the same time,

you are

> yourself not sure of the fact as to whether the " science " that you

are

> imparting as " Vedic astrology " to your " disciples " is really

Vedic or not!

> What an anachronism!

> Secondly, there are about 5000 members i.e. " Vedic astrologers " on

that

> " Vedic astrology " forum! Instead of countering my arguments with

the

> help of such a battery of " experts " in you forum, you just chose

the most

> un-Vedic way of banning a dissenter! In other words, you were not

really

> that unsure that what you were/are imparting is not really Vedic

astrology,

> but something against the real letter and spirit of the Vedas and

did

> not want any dissenting voices to be expressed!. Since if you

were really

> unsure about the Vedic dictum about astrology, and wanted to make

sure as

> to what the real Vedic canons were about such gimmicks, you would

certainly

> have grabbed an opportunity to thrash the matter across the forum

and

> entered into a discussion to resolve the issue one way or the

other!

>

> Now about your views regarding " Vedanga Jyotisha " being a book of

> Predictive astrology, which I quote:

> " Just FYI, the BA distance education course offered by SJC and

Kavikulaguru

> Kalidas Sankrit University is called BA in 'Vedanga Jyotish'. That

is a very

> appropriate Sanskrit name for Vedic astrology " .

> It appears you have not read the book Vedanga Jyotisha at all but

> just heard its name! It has been published by Indian National

Science

> Academy, Bahdurshah Zaffar Marg, New Delhi-110002 and though it is

out of

> print with them, but if you ask for it, maybe they will give you a

Xerox

> copy of the same. However, let me tell you something in brief

about this

> work i.e. the Vedanga Jyotisha:

> It is the first astronomical work of Indian astronomy compiled by

Lagadha

> around 13th/14th century BCE, around 35° latitude North, which

means, in all

> probability, it was compiled in Kashmir! It comprises 36 verses in

> all. The fourth verse of this work is very clear " Ganita " i.e.

calculation

> (and not " Phalita " i.e. prediction!) is the crown of all

shastras " . It

> also emphasizes " Since special timings are required for performing

Vedic

> rituals, one must know how to calculate those timings. It is for

that very

> purpose that this work (viz. the Vedanga Jyotisha) is being

compiled " .

> Since it helps in arriving at calculating proper timings for

rituals, that

> is why it is the " eye of the Veds " . (Literally, the statement has

been

> repeated by Bhaskaracharya in Sidhanta Shiromani of 12th century

AD, and

> even in other sidhantas, we do not find any " acharya " asking us to

> calculated horoscopes from them! Even Shishyadivridhida has said

the same

> thing i.e. the jyotisha shastra is meant to calculate proper

timings of

> rituals!)

>

> To return to Vedanga Jyotisha, all it does is give the methodology

of

> calculating the start of the solar and lunar Tapah/Magha etc

months

> and Pratipat etc. tithis besides kritika etc. nakshatras. The

start of

> the solar year and the solar month Tapah-cum-Magha is Uttarayana,

and

> the sage Lagadha has made it amply clear that by Uttarayana he

really means

> the shortest day of the year (and not the one envisaged by

almighty

> Lahiri or " Vedic astrologers " !) He also advises to calculate the

duration

> of the day from the Ayanas and Vishuva - and as you know, both

these terms

> are anathema for " Vedic astrologers " since such terms confirm that

our

> Vedic Rishis really followed a seasonal year, which we call as

tropical

> These days!

> The nakshatra division starts from Krittikas and there is

absolutely

> No indication of any Rashi like Mesha etc. nor of the planets like

> Budha, Mangal, Brihaspati, Shukra,---least of all the much dreaded

Shani!

> Same is the case with a slightly later work viz. " Yajur Jyotisha " -

 

> it is almost identical with that of Rik-Jyotisham and has a

commentary by

> Somakara (as quoted by Pt. S.B. Dikshit in his Bharatiya

Jyotish). Thus

> there are no planets or Rashis in Yajur Jyotisham either!

> Then we come to Atharva Jyotisha, which is said to be a work of

> about 5th century BCE. Even that work does not refer to any

planets nor to

> Rashis!

> As such, honestly, I do not see any justification in anyone calling

> predictive gimmicks, especially the so called nirayana gimmicks,

> as " Vedanga Jyotisha " , much less " Vedic astrology " since neither

the Vedas

> nor the " Vedanga Jyotisha " refer to any Rashis (astrological

signs) nor

> Mangal, Budha etc. planets! It is thus a real fraud on the Vedas

to call

> any predictive gimmicks as " Vedic astrology " .

>

> IT IS ALSO AGAINST THE LETTER AND SPIRITI OF CONSUMER PROTECTION

ACT.

>

> Regarding the indication of Rashis etc. in the Valmiki Ramayana,

> there is an interesting discussion going on on this topic at

> HinduCalendar

> The main purpose of this forum is to streamline our calendars in

> Accordance with the Vedic canons instead of the whims and fancies

of

> " almighty " Lahiris and Ramans and Khargats and Fagans etc. I

call

> them " almighty " since they appear to have hypnotized the entire

Hindu

> community, including some of the real scholars, to to a

Lahiri or

> Ramana or Kharegart or Fagan Rashichakra for our Vedic festivals

as well as

> Muhurtas just because " Vedic astrologers " are using such billions

of

> Rashichakras!

> There are no restrictions on entries nor are any " dissenting "

members

> banned. In fact, dissenting views are as welcome as

the " agreeing "

> ones.

> Since it is a forum moderated (just notionally, though) by me, you

> may not like to join it, I suggest you enter into discussions at

> IndianCivilization since that forum

also

> welcomes anyone who can " enliven " the discussions,

> irrespective of whatever the views maybe!

> As an alternative, you may join

> hinduism_environment

> since there are also one is free to express ones views and in

spite

> of some " footpaths " and " genuine-friends " recommending to the

moderator to

> ban me, he has not responded one way or the other (unlike Vedic-

Astrology

> forum), which means the forum is really neutral!

>

> I am sending a copy of this " reply " to " the Astro Experts " but I

am

> not sure it will appear there since I do not have a MSN id, nor do

I want to

>

> go in for additional ids at this stage. However, I am requesting

Shri

> Jyotishi to forward it there.

> With regards,

> Avtar Krishen Kaul

>

> Vinita_kum1

> <http://groups.msn.com/TheAstroexperts/profile?user=Vinita%5Fkum1%

E2%

> 9C%93>

> (Original Message)

> 7/3/2005 12:30 PM

>

>

> I thought this is a pretty interesting discussion on the Vedic-

> Astrology

> forum for our digestion:

>

> > > Vedic astrology - the greatest fraud on the Vedas

> > > Avtar Krishen Kaul, President, All India Calendar

> > Reform Committee

> > > Predictive gimmicks of " Vedic astrology " are being

> > peddled all around us these days! However, there are

> > no Rashis (astrological signs) in the Vedas though

> > nakshatras i.e. the real constellations have been

> > referred to times without number. So have the Sun

> > and the moon. Similarly, Brihaspati (Jupiter) and

> > Shukra (Vena--Venus) have been indicated at certain

> > places, but only with reference to their being

> > preceptors of Devas and Asuras respectively.

> > Rahu/Kethu have been indicated as Swarbhanu and that

> > also only in the context of eclipses. Thus planets

> > like Budha (Mercury), Mangal (Mars) and the much

> > dreaded Shani (Saturn) are conspicuous by their

> > absence in the Vedas! Besides, the 3500 year old

> > Vedanga Jyotisha, the earliest work of Vedic

> > astronomy, just enunciates the methodology of

> > calculating tithi, nakshatra, solar and lunar months

> > like Tapah/Magha etc. apart from Ayanas and

> > adhikamasas-intercalary months. There also no rashis

> > (astrological signs) have been mentioned nor any

> > other planets except the sun and the moon. Same is

> > the case with Yajur and Atharva Jyotisha. Jain

> > astronomical works like Surya Pragyapti of the early

> > centuries of pre-Christian era also are silent about

> > Rashis and planets! Garga Hora is also silent to the

> > extent that not even weekdays have been mentioned in

> > any of these shastras!

> > >

> > > Surya Sidhanta of about 2nd century AD is said to

> > be the first work of astronomy containing details of

> > planetary calculations with reference to ecliptic

> > and the Equinoxes etc. The Surya sidhanta that we

> > have these days gives entirely different fundamental

> > arguments from the Surya Sidhanta as given by

> > Varahamihira in his Pancha Sidhantika! As everybody

> > knows, this Surya Sidhanta is supposed to have been

> > " revealed " by the sun god to a Yavana named Maya!

> > Surprisingly, even Varahamihira himself refers to

> > yavanas as " mlechhas " ! In other words, the sun god

> > did not find even a single Hindu soul in the whole

> > of the pre-Christian India worthy of such " divine "

> > knowledge that he had to reveal it to a " mlechha " !

> > Do you know why? Because we in India did not believe

> > in our fate being " revealed " to us! We believed in

> > " doing our duty " ! As per the Gita, when Arjuna said

> > that he was not sure as to whether Kauravas or

> > Pandavas would win the battle, Bhagwan Krishna did

> > not ask him to go and enquire from a jyotishi

> > whether he would win or lose the war but He just

> > advised him that if he (Arjuna) got killed in the

> > battlefield he would go to the heavens and if he won

> > the war he would be the " master of all he surveyed " .

> > Clearly, Lord Krishna Himself did not believe in

> > " fate being revealed " and " remedial measure

> > suggested as per planetary indications " .

> > >

> > > The meaning is very clear: There were no

> > jyotishis around then and if there were any, they

> > were not to be consulted!

> > >

> > > Not only our shastras but even the sidhantas like

> > the Surya sidhanta or Aryabhati etc. have never

> > asked us to prepare any horoscopes from them and

> > then find out how we were going to fare in our

> > lives! In fact they are quite silent about

> > predictive astrology. Right from the Vedanga

> > Jyotisha to Sidhanta Shiromani - the alpha and omega

> > of Hindu astronomy, the sidhantas say that for

> > determining the proper timings for conducting Vedic

> > rituals - yajnyas--- these sidhantas are to be used.

> > It is only Varahamihira who has written something on

> > predictive astrology and also compiled

> > Panchasidhantika! But we must not forget that he has

> > not produced any single original astronomical work

> > of his own but just compiled a work of five

> > sidhantas! Ironically, in all those five sidhantas

> > viz. i) Paulisha, (i) Romaka, (iii) Vasishtha (iv)

> > Pitamaha, and (v) Surya Sidhanta, only the last one

> > viz. the Surya sidhanta gives the fundamental

> > arguments for planetary calculations! And Varaha has

> > referred to it as the " most accurate " one. By

> > implication the Surya Sidhanta we have with us today

> > is not " that accurate " either! In other words, even

> > the Greco-Chaldean planetary astronomy imported by

> > us in India has been tampered with.

> > >

> > > Not surprisingly, Varahamihira has used more Greek

> > words in his works of predictive astrology like

> > Brihat Jatakam and Brihat (Varahi) Samhita etc, thus

> > showing his " indebtedness " to Greek astrologers!

> > >

> > > Even if we presume for a moment that our ancestors

> > of post Varahamihira had nothing else to do except

> > for preparing horoscopes, the funniest point is that

> > even Varahamihira himself would not have been able

> > to prepare his own horoscope correctly from his own

> > much praised Surya Sidhanta since the fundamental

> > arguments in that Surya Sidhanta also are absolutely

> > wrong as per modern astronomical data, courtesy

> > NASA/JPL Same is the case with all the other later

> > sidhantas including the Sidhanta Shiromani of

> > Bhaskara - II of 12th century!

> > >

> > > It is thus clear that to call any predictive

> > system as Vedic is playing a great fraud on the

> > Vedas. It is also against the Consumer Protection

> > Act since it is a misrepresentation of facts. It has

> > also resulted in our becoming a laughing stock in

> > the eyes of the whole world since we are celebrating

> > geographical phenomena like Winter/Summer Solstice

> > (Makara/Karka Sankrantis) and Spring/Autumn

> > Equinoxes (Mesha/Tula sankrantis) also at least

> > after 24 days of the real phenomena thanks to the so

> > called non-existent nirayana rashichakras galore

> > invented by " Vedic astrologers " .

> > >

> > > We have to put a full stop to all this and every

> > Hindu is requested to kindly stop celebrating

> > festivals on wrong days like Pitramavasya on the day

> > of actual Dipavali and so on.

> ------------------> Namaste,

> >

> > Well, Jyotisha may or may not be mentioned in Vedas.

> > But that is immaterial. It is one of the Vedangas

> > (veda+angas, i.e. limbs of Veda). RigVeda, YajurVeda

> > etc are the four heads of the Veda Purusha (the

> > personification of Vedic knowledge). There are other

> > limbs of Veda Purusha and Jyotisha IS mentioned as

> > one, i.e. as a Vedanga.

> >

> > So I personally don't see anything wrong in the name

> > " Vedic astrology " . It is a very apt name.

> >

> > Just FYI, the BA distance education course offered

> > by SJC and Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sankrit University

> > is called BA in " Vedanga Jyotish " . That is a very

> > appropriate Sanskrit name for Vedic astrology.

> >

> > Regarding the history of astrology, this gentleman

> > has his own unfounded views, just as I have my own

> > unfounded views, and we don't know who is correct.

> > He may think that Indians did not know any astronomy

> > before 2nd century AD. But planets and

> > rasis/nakshatras occupied by them on various dates

> > were mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana and by Vyasa

> > in Mahabharata. The author probably thinks that they

> > lived after 2nd century AD. Well, he may be right.

> > Or he may be badly off.

> >

> > So it is useless to talk about the historical

> > factors.

> >

> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> > Narasimha

> ------------------

<script>document.write('<a

> .atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkhac001728x90xWBCBRB00110msn/direct/01/ "

> target= " _blank " ><img

>

src= " http://view.atdmt.com/MSN/view/msnnkhac001728x90xWBCBRB00110msn/

> direct/

> 01/ " /></a></scriptThe Astroexperts TheAstroexperts@

>

>

> > Well, Jyotisha may or may not be mentioned in Vedas.

> > But that is immaterial. It is one of the Vedangas

> > (veda+angas, i.e. limbs of Veda). RigVeda, YajurVeda

> > etc are the four heads of the Veda Purusha (the

> > personification of Vedic knowledge). There are other

> > limbs of Veda Purusha and Jyotisha IS mentioned as

> > one, i.e. as a Vedanga.

> >

> > So I personally don't see anything wrong in the name

> > " Vedic astrology " . It is a very apt name.

> >

> > Just FYI, the BA distance education course offered

> > by SJC and Kavikulaguru Kalidas Sankrit University

> > is called BA in " Vedanga Jyotish " . That is a very

> > appropriate Sanskrit name for Vedic astrology.

> >

> > Regarding the history of astrology, this gentleman

> > has his own unfounded views, just as I have my own

> > unfounded views, and we don't know who is correct.

> > He may think that Indians did not know any astronomy

> > before 2nd century AD. But planets and

> > rasis/nakshatras occupied by them on various dates

> > were mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana and by Vyasa

> > in Mahabharata. The author probably thinks that they

> > lived after 2nd century AD. Well, he may be right.

> > Or he may be badly off.

> >

> > So it is useless to talk about the historical

> > factors.

> >

> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> > Narasimha

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>