Guest guest Posted June 17, 2007 Report Share Posted June 17, 2007 Dear Kaul ji, ==> > I have gone through all the six pages of the relevant document. > Would you be kind enough to give the exact references, at least of > the Vedic mantras, that you have quoted there. <== Let me go through it again, actually I don't have the Vedas with me currently here in Delhi (I am doing job in Delhi and my native state is Kerala). But what ever exact references available I will try to provide, even though it will take some time. ==> > There is hardly any sholkaa or mantra that you have quoted which > advises us to consult some jyotishi before undertaking any work! <== Of course information comes in chunks and it is a continuous flow. Vedas are just one of the beginning streams of knowledge, just like Tantras, Budhist and Jain literature and so on. The continuation of that literary source persisted in India till date and we have access to the same (at least to the available literature). ==> > On the other hand, you have overlooked the admonishments of the > Manusmirit, Yogavasishstha, the Gita etc. etc. > that " karmanyevadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachanai " . Believing in > predictive gimmicks means fatalism. Our shastras preached anything > but that! We should not forget that the Gita has advised us " Kuru > karmaiv tasmat tvam, poorve poorvatarai kritam " . Similarly, the > Ishopanishad has said " kurvannevaeha karmani jijeevishechhatam > samah, evam tvayi nanyetheto asti, na karma lipyete nare " . Then > again Kathopanishada says, " Uttishthata, jagrata, prapya varan > niboddhata--Kshyurasya dhara nishita guhayam durgam pathas tat kavyo > vadantih " . I could quote at least a thousand mantras and shlokas > from our shastras which admonish us against fatalism, leave alone > consulting some jyotishi or soothsayer. <== First thing first - my opinion is that astrology has a philosophy of its own. Personally I am of the opinion is that - ancient astrology never supported Karma sidhanta; but others may differ. Now coming to 'fatalism' there is a story. Some one visited a sage and asked what is the relation between free will and fate. The sage suddenly ordered the man to raise one feet. Astonished the man raised his right leg. Now the sage asked the man to raised the other leg. The man got irritated and refuted - I have asked you a philosophical doubt and you are not answering the question and asking me to do all the absurd things! I have already raised the right leg, now how can I raise the left? The sage answered - Do you see the point? That is the relation between you free will and fate. It was your decision to lift the right leg, absolute choice. But when you did it, you choose your fate as well. Now you can not raise the other leg. That is pre-determined and is your fate. Free will and Fate goes together. One determines the other - they are mutually fulfilling. You might have also read the sloka in YajnaValkya Smriti - " Daive purushakare cha karma sidhir vyavasthita; Yatra karammabhivyaktam purusham pourva dehikam " etc. Yanjna valka smirit describes Fate and Freewill as the two wheels of a chariot. Of course all this discussion about Karma, Freewill, Fate etc is totally another subject - different from the previous subject under discussion that is - Vedic proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems. One more thing - even if there was no astrology in Vedas I would have no objection; because this group is for astrology - whether Vedic or Non-Vedic. ==> > No tantra shastra has either > advised us to check our horoscope before embarking on the path of > Truth. <== That would be a wrong conclusion. There is a lot of astrology in Tantric texts and it is subject that demands urgent attention from scholars, since due to this extra importance given to Vedas hundreds of very good tantric texts got neglected, and the irony is that they are now too available in manuscript libraries for anybody to scrutinize. But true scholars are yet to put their hard effort in presenting the great knowledge (about many subjects like Spirituality, Astrology, Ayurveda, Chemistry, Yoga and many more) present in those precious texts. If you want to have a start on 'astrology in Tantric texts' the article on " Tantric Astrology and Dettatreya Mahatantra " kept files section of this group may of use, even though it is not good enough to make a good beginning of the study of the subject. Link:Sreenadh/ Tantric Astrology and Dettatreya Mahatantra.txt Love, Sreenadh , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Shri Sreenadhji, > Namaskar! > > I have gone through all the six pages of the relevant document. > Would you be kind enough to give the exact references, at least of > the Vedic mantras, that you have quoted there. > > There is hardly any sholkaa or mantra that you have quoted which > advises us to consult some jyotishi before undertaking any work! On > the other hand, you have overlooked the admonishments of the > Manusmirit, Yogavasishstha, the Gita etc. etc. > that " karmanyevadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachanai " . Believing in > predictive gimmicks means fatalism. Our shastras preached anything > but that! We should not forget that the Gita has advised us " Kuru > karmaiv tasmat tvam, poorve poorvatarai kritam " . Similarly, the > Ishopanishad has said " kurvannevaeha karmani jijeevishechhatam > samah, evam tvayi nanyetheto asti, na karma lipyete nare " . Then > again Kathopanishada says, " Uttishthata, jagrata, prapya varan > niboddhata--Kshyurasya dhara nishita guhayam durgam pathas tat kavyo > vadantih " . I could quote at least a thousand mantras and shlokas > from our shastras which admonish us against fatalism, leave alone > consulting some jyotishi or soothsayer. No tantra shastra has either > advised us to check our horoscope before embarking on the path of > Truth. > Best regards > AKK > , > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the > > > group. > > > > File : /Sreenadh/Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana > Systems.pdf > > Uploaded by : sreesog <sreesog@> > > Description : About the presence of Predictive astrology in > Ancient literature including Vedas > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > > Sreenadh > /Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Sayana-Nirayana%20Systems.pdf > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > http://help./help/us/groups/files > > > > Regards, > > > > sreesog <sreesog@> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 dear srinadh ji, i am a very new member of this group but i am aware of mr.a.k.kaul since the last few years,obviously because he has been a nuisance creator and has been roaming to all the groups,his last chain of mails that i had seen was in 2006 wherein he claimed himself to be the president of the calender reforms commitee,that was a standard signature that used to accompany his name everywhere,i don't see that signature now,i just wonder if there existed any calender reforms commitee or even if it did has he been thrown out from it.in those mails he was disputing the whole calender system.last time around he was using the word charlatan for mr. b.v.raman this time he is using it for varahmihira.his line of argument has been similar always,ofcourse there are very few takers of it but he has tried hard to win followers in the astro world.i just wonder if he is fully aware of the meaning of a charlatan. last time around i had advised him that there are a lot of people in this world who don't believe in astrology whether vedic or otherwise but they do not have this habit of being a nosy parker everywhere trying to bias people with their own views.if you do not believe in this system it is ok but then why are you trying to convince us so hard,just go and be happy in your own world. i sometimes wonder if he has an agenda or if he is a psycho who has a complex to get recognised by hook or by crook. i know i am being rude but i don't see any other apt way to address this gentleman. regds..mukesh , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Kaul ji, > ==> > > I have gone through all the six pages of the relevant document. > > Would you be kind enough to give the exact references, at least of > > the Vedic mantras, that you have quoted there. > <== > Let me go through it again, actually I don't have the Vedas with me > currently here in Delhi (I am doing job in Delhi and my native state > is Kerala). But what ever exact references available I will try to > provide, even though it will take some time. > ==> > > There is hardly any sholkaa or mantra that you have quoted which > > advises us to consult some jyotishi before undertaking any work! > <== > Of course information comes in chunks and it is a continuous flow. > Vedas are just one of the beginning streams of knowledge, just like > Tantras, Budhist and Jain literature and so on. The continuation of > that literary source persisted in India till date and we have access > to the same (at least to the available literature). > ==> > > On the other hand, you have overlooked the admonishments of the > > Manusmirit, Yogavasishstha, the Gita etc. etc. > > that " karmanyevadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachanai " . Believing in > > predictive gimmicks means fatalism. Our shastras preached anything > > but that! We should not forget that the Gita has advised us " Kuru > > karmaiv tasmat tvam, poorve poorvatarai kritam " . Similarly, the > > Ishopanishad has said " kurvannevaeha karmani jijeevishechhatam > > samah, evam tvayi nanyetheto asti, na karma lipyete nare " . Then > > again Kathopanishada says, " Uttishthata, jagrata, prapya varan > > niboddhata--Kshyurasya dhara nishita guhayam durgam pathas tat kavyo > > vadantih " . I could quote at least a thousand mantras and shlokas > > from our shastras which admonish us against fatalism, leave alone > > consulting some jyotishi or soothsayer. > <== > First thing first - my opinion is that astrology has a philosophy of > its own. Personally I am of the opinion is that - ancient astrology > never supported Karma sidhanta; but others may differ. > Now coming to 'fatalism' there is a story. Some one visited a sage > and asked what is the relation between free will and fate. The sage > suddenly ordered the man to raise one feet. Astonished the man raised > his right leg. Now the sage asked the man to raised the other leg. The > man got irritated and refuted - I have asked you a philosophical doubt > and you are not answering the question and asking me to do all the > absurd things! I have already raised the right leg, now how can I > raise the left? The sage answered - Do you see the point? That is the > relation between you free will and fate. It was your decision to lift > the right leg, absolute choice. But when you did it, you choose your > fate as well. Now you can not raise the other leg. That is > pre-determined and is your fate. Free will and Fate goes together. One > determines the other - they are mutually fulfilling. You might have > also read the sloka in YajnaValkya Smriti - " Daive purushakare cha > karma sidhir vyavasthita; Yatra karammabhivyaktam purusham pourva > dehikam " etc. Yanjna valka smirit describes Fate and Freewill as the > two wheels of a chariot. > Of course all this discussion about Karma, Freewill, Fate etc is > totally another subject - different from the previous subject under > discussion that is - Vedic proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems. > One more thing - even if there was no astrology in Vedas I would > have no objection; because this group is for astrology - whether Vedic > or Non-Vedic. > > ==> > > No tantra shastra has either > > advised us to check our horoscope before embarking on the path of > > Truth. > <== > That would be a wrong conclusion. There is a lot of astrology in > Tantric texts and it is subject that demands urgent attention from > scholars, since due to this extra importance given to Vedas hundreds > of very good tantric texts got neglected, and the irony is that they > are now too available in manuscript libraries for anybody to > scrutinize. But true scholars are yet to put their hard effort in > presenting the great knowledge (about many subjects like Spirituality, > Astrology, Ayurveda, Chemistry, Yoga and many more) present in those > precious texts. If you want to have a start on 'astrology in Tantric > texts' the article on " Tantric Astrology and Dettatreya Mahatantra " > kept files section of this group may of use, even though it is not > good enough to make a good beginning of the study of the subject. > Link:Sre enadh/ > Tantric Astrology and Dettatreya Mahatantra.txt > Love, > Sreenadh > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Shri Sreenadhji, > > Namaskar! > > > > I have gone through all the six pages of the relevant document. > > Would you be kind enough to give the exact references, at least of > > the Vedic mantras, that you have quoted there. > > > > There is hardly any sholkaa or mantra that you have quoted which > > advises us to consult some jyotishi before undertaking any work! On > > the other hand, you have overlooked the admonishments of the > > Manusmirit, Yogavasishstha, the Gita etc. etc. > > that " karmanyevadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachanai " . Believing in > > predictive gimmicks means fatalism. Our shastras preached anything > > but that! We should not forget that the Gita has advised us " Kuru > > karmaiv tasmat tvam, poorve poorvatarai kritam " . Similarly, the > > Ishopanishad has said " kurvannevaeha karmani jijeevishechhatam > > samah, evam tvayi nanyetheto asti, na karma lipyete nare " . Then > > again Kathopanishada says, " Uttishthata, jagrata, prapya varan > > niboddhata--Kshyurasya dhara nishita guhayam durgam pathas tat kavyo > > vadantih " . I could quote at least a thousand mantras and shlokas > > from our shastras which admonish us against fatalism, leave alone > > consulting some jyotishi or soothsayer. No tantra shastra has either > > advised us to check our horoscope before embarking on the path of > > Truth. > > Best regards > > AKK > > , > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the > > > > > group. > > > > > > File : /Sreenadh/Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana > > Systems.pdf > > > Uploaded by : sreesog <sreesog@> > > > Description : About the presence of Predictive astrology in > > Ancient literature including Vedas > > > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > > > > Sreenadh > > /Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Sayana-Nirayana%20Systems.pdf > > > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > > http://help./help/us/groups/files > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > sreesog <sreesog@> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Dear Mukesh ji, I can understand your feelings. But this is not the way we should behave to an elderly person who has devoted almost whole of his life for the sake of astrology and calendar reforms...Even if the efforts fail, or even if in wrong or right direction, the dedication and efforts put after collecting the data should be appreciated. Some body may or may not be as efficient like others in doing the same..One may or may not accept his opinions...But respect holds... * We are all growing….We are all learning... * We can all be friends even after having varying opinions.. provided the attacks are not turning personal, or the egos are not raising high denying knowledge sharing with others.. * It is usual for an individual to doubt anything and everything during search.. but later some become constructive and some destructive due to there own inner nature...Or is it that those with a peaceful mind become constructive drawing perfect pictures at time even out of nothing and those who are troubled by life and situations drawing the shattered figured even when beauty could have been there within... who knows... * But we are all learning...and individuals are ever changing always...the opinions, the knowledge and info in hand…. realizations...attitude...nothing remains the same even the day after... * As you rightly mentioned he is disputing the whole calendar system...But it is also true that the whole calendar system is on wrong path...mixing the sayana and nirayana systems….Not founding or changing itself based on astronomical changes...But may be that is not the purpose of the world with a calendar...If we have a calendar and we can calculate and count days properly most of us are satisfied... As I mentioned earlier his efforts might be on the right path or might be on the wrong...but it is absurd to think that the whole Indian population will drop the system followed or change overnight and adopt a new system, the authenticity of which would also be equally disputable.. It is like changing from one religion to another… all the religions becomes dead at some point of time and new spiritual leaders emerge to revitalize them...those streams are also sure to become dead at some point of time and then something new will emerge.. the same would be the story of calendar system….Looking back is good..But going back impossible. ..because history is mysterious….and misty...clarity of vision and impossibility...Kaul ji may say one thing about the systems that were present in Vedic period and somebody else something else. …the proofs are fragmented…. and there is no chance of getting more proofs as well….the past is gone...we cannot go back...But Let us cherish the remaining fruits of the past...being constructive let us try to present a better and complete picture of the same to the posterity....because they won't even have this much access to the tradition and knowledge of the past...the great Sindhu-Saraswati tradition/the Vedic period..If people like Kaul ji can turn constructive that could be of more benefit to the posterity, and his current destructive attitude...But still it is quite natural for any seeker... * May be we all want respect and recognition...we all want popularity...we are all psychic...abnormal…. But the difference is that somebody can see their picture reflected in the mirror, whereas others cannot...At time knowing the reality cause a change, even though usually it is not permanent... * He turns polite...I feel he already did.. then why can me...why can't you... * But personally I don't want him to be turn completely polite... Usually there is a fire in every person that keeps him vital.. May be it is this constant fight that re-energizes Kaul ji..If so let that fire be there...(personal insults excluded)..the same could be of benefit to us and also for the cause of knowledge in general I feel.. * It should be remembered that me or you don't have any right to say, how Kaul ji should behave or what attitude he should keep towards life or knowledge...Here our range is limited to this group and the purpose of it...(as the group name suggest - ancient indian astrology)..It is the common thread that unites us here...If the same is served everything is welcome... * Even my attitudes and opinions may change...But it all depends on the situations... Love, Sreenadh , " mukesh_vats9992 " <mukesh_vats9992 wrote: > > > dear srinadh ji, > i am a very new member of this group but i am aware of mr.a.k.kaul > since the last few years,obviously because he has been a nuisance > creator and has been roaming to all the groups,his last chain of > mails that i had seen was in 2006 wherein he claimed himself to be > the president of the calender reforms commitee,that was a standard > signature that used to accompany his name everywhere,i don't see > that signature now,i just wonder if there existed any calender > reforms commitee or even if it did has he been thrown out from it.in > those mails he was disputing the whole calender system.last time > around he was using the word charlatan for mr. b.v.raman this time > he is using it for varahmihira.his line of argument has been similar > always,ofcourse there are very few takers of it but he has tried > hard to win followers in the astro world.i just wonder if he is > fully aware of the meaning of a charlatan. > last time around i had advised him that there are a lot of people > in this world who don't believe in astrology whether vedic or > otherwise but they do not have this habit of being a nosy parker > everywhere trying to bias people with their own views.if you do not > believe in this system it is ok but then why are you trying to > convince us so hard,just go and be happy in your own world. > i sometimes wonder if he has an agenda or if he is a psycho who > has a complex to get recognised by hook or by crook. > i know i am being rude but i don't see any other apt way to > address this gentleman. > regds..mukesh > , " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kaul ji, > > ==> > > > I have gone through all the six pages of the relevant document. > > > Would you be kind enough to give the exact references, at least > of > > > the Vedic mantras, that you have quoted there. > > <== > > Let me go through it again, actually I don't have the Vedas with > me > > currently here in Delhi (I am doing job in Delhi and my native > state > > is Kerala). But what ever exact references available I will try to > > provide, even though it will take some time. > > ==> > > > There is hardly any sholkaa or mantra that you have quoted which > > > advises us to consult some jyotishi before undertaking any work! > > <== > > Of course information comes in chunks and it is a continuous > flow. > > Vedas are just one of the beginning streams of knowledge, just like > > Tantras, Budhist and Jain literature and so on. The continuation of > > that literary source persisted in India till date and we have > access > > to the same (at least to the available literature). > > ==> > > > On the other hand, you have overlooked the admonishments of the > > > Manusmirit, Yogavasishstha, the Gita etc. etc. > > > that " karmanyevadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachanai " . Believing > in > > > predictive gimmicks means fatalism. Our shastras preached > anything > > > but that! We should not forget that the Gita has advised > us " Kuru > > > karmaiv tasmat tvam, poorve poorvatarai kritam " . Similarly, the > > > Ishopanishad has said " kurvannevaeha karmani jijeevishechhatam > > > samah, evam tvayi nanyetheto asti, na karma lipyete nare " . Then > > > again Kathopanishada says, " Uttishthata, jagrata, prapya varan > > > niboddhata--Kshyurasya dhara nishita guhayam durgam pathas tat > kavyo > > > vadantih " . I could quote at least a thousand mantras and > shlokas > > > from our shastras which admonish us against fatalism, leave > alone > > > consulting some jyotishi or soothsayer. > > <== > > First thing first - my opinion is that astrology has a > philosophy of > > its own. Personally I am of the opinion is that - ancient astrology > > never supported Karma sidhanta; but others may differ. > > Now coming to 'fatalism' there is a story. Some one visited a > sage > > and asked what is the relation between free will and fate. The sage > > suddenly ordered the man to raise one feet. Astonished the man > raised > > his right leg. Now the sage asked the man to raised the other leg. > The > > man got irritated and refuted - I have asked you a philosophical > doubt > > and you are not answering the question and asking me to do all the > > absurd things! I have already raised the right leg, now how can I > > raise the left? The sage answered - Do you see the point? That is > the > > relation between you free will and fate. It was your decision to > lift > > the right leg, absolute choice. But when you did it, you choose > your > > fate as well. Now you can not raise the other leg. That is > > pre-determined and is your fate. Free will and Fate goes together. > One > > determines the other - they are mutually fulfilling. You might have > > also read the sloka in YajnaValkya Smriti - " Daive purushakare cha > > karma sidhir vyavasthita; Yatra karammabhivyaktam purusham pourva > > dehikam " etc. Yanjna valka smirit describes Fate and Freewill as > the > > two wheels of a chariot. > > Of course all this discussion about Karma, Freewill, Fate etc is > > totally another subject - different from the previous subject under > > discussion that is - Vedic proof of Sayana-Nirayana Systems. > > One more thing - even if there was no astrology in Vedas I would > > have no objection; because this group is for astrology - whether > Vedic > > or Non-Vedic. > > > > ==> > > > No tantra shastra has either > > > advised us to check our horoscope before embarking on the path > of > > > Truth. > > <== > > That would be a wrong conclusion. There is a lot of astrology in > > Tantric texts and it is subject that demands urgent attention from > > scholars, since due to this extra importance given to Vedas > hundreds > > of very good tantric texts got neglected, and the irony is that > they > > are now too available in manuscript libraries for anybody to > > scrutinize. But true scholars are yet to put their hard effort in > > presenting the great knowledge (about many subjects like > Spirituality, > > Astrology, Ayurveda, Chemistry, Yoga and many more) present in > those > > precious texts. If you want to have a start on 'astrology in > Tantric > > texts' the article on " Tantric Astrology and Dettatreya > Mahatantra " > > kept files section of this group may of use, even though it is not > > good enough to make a good beginning of the study of the subject. > > > Link:Sre > enadh/ > > Tantric Astrology and Dettatreya Mahatantra.txt > > Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > , " Avtar Krishen > Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Shri Sreenadhji, > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > I have gone through all the six pages of the relevant document. > > > Would you be kind enough to give the exact references, at least > of > > > the Vedic mantras, that you have quoted there. > > > > > > There is hardly any sholkaa or mantra that you have quoted which > > > advises us to consult some jyotishi before undertaking any > work! On > > > the other hand, you have overlooked the admonishments of the > > > Manusmirit, Yogavasishstha, the Gita etc. etc. > > > that " karmanyevadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachanai " . Believing > in > > > predictive gimmicks means fatalism. Our shastras preached > anything > > > but that! We should not forget that the Gita has advised > us " Kuru > > > karmaiv tasmat tvam, poorve poorvatarai kritam " . Similarly, the > > > Ishopanishad has said " kurvannevaeha karmani jijeevishechhatam > > > samah, evam tvayi nanyetheto asti, na karma lipyete nare " . Then > > > again Kathopanishada says, " Uttishthata, jagrata, prapya varan > > > niboddhata--Kshyurasya dhara nishita guhayam durgam pathas tat > kavyo > > > vadantih " . I could quote at least a thousand mantras and > shlokas > > > from our shastras which admonish us against fatalism, leave > alone > > > consulting some jyotishi or soothsayer. No tantra shastra has > either > > > advised us to check our horoscope before embarking on the path > of > > > Truth. > > > Best regards > > > AKK > > > , > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the > > > > > > > group. > > > > > > > > File : /Sreenadh/Vedic Proof of Sayana-Nirayana > > > Systems.pdf > > > > Uploaded by : sreesog <sreesog@> > > > > Description : About the presence of Predictive astrology in > > > Ancient literature including Vedas > > > > > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > /Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Sayana-Nirayana%20Systems.pdf > > > > > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > > > http://help./help/us/groups/files > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > sreesog <sreesog@> > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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