Dear Bharat (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

[Guest guest]

Dear Nair Saab, Welcome back. In fact you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend Shreenadh. I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform this foreground. All else should be secondary. And then scholarship. Indeed. Debates about the moorings of astrology will always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline

like astology (call it vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. But we have to be careful. That is my understanding. We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline are, in a way,

at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the good many of us bring to the forum.). Sreenadh has acted his part well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of himself. Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. RK Dash Madhu Nair <balagurusurya

wrote: Dear Bharat, At the outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants commited to denigrate it. I take note of your resplendent views on Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. It is quite unfortunate, Sri Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking , unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish. Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different Zodiac and his views about it, with me.. As desired by your good self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list. With Warm Personal Regards, Madhu Nair Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology > wrote: Namaste Sri KaulA discussion takes place when:1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a learner and student of mine2. Both of us are open to learning, exploring.3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. You and I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for learning. I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with you. Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. Thanks and

RegardsBharat On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen > wrote: Shri Bharat ji,Namaskar!First of all I must congratulate Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the posts on this forum unmoderated! It needs really an open mind to do so!Now coming to your points:I have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and

Brighu etc. etc. Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate them with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating "Jyotish is Vedic", "Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said" and so on and so forth! Kindly go through all the files that I have uploaded on this forum and do give a point by point reply. If you take time out to peruse them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that I was sailing in the same boat as you are sailing today! In other words, I was a more stauch "nirayana astrologer" for quite a few years than nyybody else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse a firm believer in "Sayana Vedic astrology" for several years! Since nobody, including the "Vedic jyotishis" themselves, whether sayana or nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence of Mesha, Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or nirayana, in any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha

or the Yajur Jyotisha or even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken for a ride for quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the Vedas talk of nothing else but predictive gimmicks!It may perhaps be a "revelation" to you that we do not find any mention of the much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the Vedas or any of the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you know that except for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other sidhanta of even the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or Mangal, Shani etc. planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate astronomical work that could have been produced by anybody! Ironically, Varahamihira found that very Surya Sidhanta to be the most accurate - spashta taro savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to have been the greatest Indian astrologer of all times! Naturally, if someone can make

correct predictions from incorrect data, he certainly is a charlatan than anything else! Thus you can say that "Varahamihira was the greatest charlatan of Indian astrology of all times". There was a genetleman in twentieth century also who could make coorect predictions about "notable horoscopes" with incorrect data. He was also known as the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century! That much for Indian astrology!Dhanyavad. , "Bharat Hindu Astrology" <hinduastrology wrote:>> Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > Forcing a concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor does a> Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that views> other than his own can exist. There a vast

difference between a true scholar> who pursues knowledge knowing that Ignorance is so vast that he better be> humble.> > By giving useless logic and wrong translations and without answering any> queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > I reserve my judgment about this person and his "lookalikes" > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat ji,> > "Sri Kaul and his belief system" => That is cute terminology. > > ==>> > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to those who does not agree to his> > > thinking.> > <==> > That is not good - if he does so.> > ==>> > > He is trying to force his way around in proving all> > > others are

wrong.> > <==> > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> >> > ==>> > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > <==> > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul itself?> >> > ==>> > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather stay> > > and enjoy their mostly baseless contentions.> > <==> >> > I agree to the first statement and stand by the same. But would> > disagree to the second, since Kaul's arguments also has some> > supportive evidence, like a person seeing a 2 colored kite from only> > one side. The truth is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > Vedic period, and also that Nirayana system of astrology is more of> > Tantric origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over

terminology> > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some use> > to us.> > Love,> > Sreenadh> >> > <%40>, > > "Bharat Hindu> > Astrology" <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > >> > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > >> > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I did> > not agree> > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as Vedic only. He uses sarcasm> > and> > > calls names to those who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > trying to> >

> force his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has done> > so in> > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent reply to his> > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > >> > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point> > discussing> > > things with them. They are no one to determine whether Astrology is> > Vedic or> > > not. I am born to the culture and shall call it Vedic, including> > astrology.> > >> > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather stay> > and enjoy> > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > >> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > > On 6/15/07, Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > >> > >

> Dear Sreenadh ,> > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No offence to him.> > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning of " Parashara " with a> > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I understand that one meaning> > > > attributed to "Parashara' is "The Liberated one" , that means ,> > > > Parashara can never be a single person & BPHS may be a> > contribution> > > > of several realised souls .> > > > Unfortunately , he was finding fault with my English. I could> > > > clearly make out his sarcastic note of my English.> > > > I was under the presumption that the list was meant for learning> > > > Jyotish. Now I realise it is for learning flowery English> > Language. I> > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana Zodiac .If

I> > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years back .> > > >> > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some other alias he will> > return to> > > > vent his spite. I don't have the Time to fight neither I wish to> > > > be the target of someone in nomdeplume .> > > >> > > > Once I left your list but returned ,as desired by you, Kumar and> > > > some other members who are my friends.> > > >> > > > I don't want to be a disruptive influence in your list .> > > > I am sure the list will progress to new horizon ,under your able> > > > guidance> > > > All the Best> > > > Signing off> > > >> > > > Madhu> > > >> > > >> > > >> >

>> >> > > >> Here’s a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

Here’s a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri DashPerhaps I should forward all my posts to Sri Kaul to give a better account of myself. Initially, I was the only person in many forums who replied to him and engaged in dialogue with him. I did give him the benefit of doubt, but, later discovered to my dismay that the person only wanted to force people to believe like he does. This is unacceptable in field of knowledge, especially when the Vedas say otherwise. It is for this reason, I did not give a better account of myself in the current discussions. One should try not to make the same mistake twice. If you wish, I can forward all my discussions regarding Sri Kaul's contentions to your private email. I have already sent in 3-4 mails to the group.

Thanks and RegardsBharatOn 6/17/07, rk dash <arkaydash wrote:

 

Dear Nair Saab,

Welcome back. In fact you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend Shreenadh. I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform this foreground. All else should be secondary.

And then scholarship. Indeed. Debates about the moorings of astrology will always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. But we have to be careful. That is my understanding. We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the good many of us bring to the forum.).

Sreenadh has acted his part well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of himself.

Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. RK DashMadhu Nair <balagurusurya@

.co.in> wrote:Dear Bharat,

At the outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants commited to denigrate it.

I take note of your resplendent views on Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. It is quite unfortunate, Sri Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking , unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.

Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different Zodiac and his views about it, with me.. As desired by your good self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.

With Warm Personal Regards, Madhu Nair Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology@

gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste Sri KaulA discussion takes place when:1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a learner and student of mine2. Both of us are open to learning, exploring.3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. You and I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for learning. I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with you. Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. Thanks and RegardsBharatOn 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <

a_krishen wrote: Shri Bharat ji,

Namaskar!First of all I must congratulate Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the posts on this forum unmoderated! It needs really an open mind to do so!Now coming to your points:I have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate them with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and so on and so forth! Kindly go through all the files that I have uploaded on this forum and do give a point by point reply. If you take time out to peruse them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that I was sailing in the same boat as you are sailing today! In other words, I was a more stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few years than nyybody else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse a firm believer in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years! Since nobody, including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves, whether sayana or nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence of Mesha, Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or nirayana, in

any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur Jyotisha or even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken for a ride for quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the Vedas talk of nothing else but predictive gimmicks!

It may perhaps be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any mention of the much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the Vedas or any of the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you

know that except for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other sidhanta of even the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or Mangal, Shani etc. planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate astronomical work that could have been produced by anybody! Ironically, Varahamihira found that very Surya Sidhanta to be the most accurate - spashta taro savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to have been the greatest Indian astrologer of all times! Naturally, if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data, he certainly is a charlatan than anything else! Thus you can say that " Varahamihira was the greatest charlatan of Indian astrology of all times " . There was a genetleman in twentieth century also who could make coorect predictions about " notable horoscopes " with incorrect data. He was also known as the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century! That much for Indian astrology!Dhanyavad.

, " Bharat Hindu Astrology " <hinduastrology wrote:

>> Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > Forcing a concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor does a> Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that

views> other than his own can exist. There a vast difference between a true scholar> who pursues knowledge knowing that Ignorance is so vast that he better be> humble.> > By giving useless logic and wrong translations and without answering any> queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > I reserve my judgment about this person and his " lookalikes " > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat>

> On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:> >> > Dear Bharat ji,> > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is cute terminology. > > ==>

> > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to those who does not agree to his> > > thinking.> > <==> > That is not good - if he does so.> > ==>> > > He is trying to force his way around in proving all

> > > others are wrong.> > <==> > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> >> > ==>> > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.

> > <==> > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul itself?> >> > ==>> > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather stay> > > and enjoy their mostly baseless contentions.> > <==> >> > I agree to the first statement and stand by the same. But would> > disagree to the second, since Kaul's arguments also has some

> > supportive evidence, like a person seeing a 2 colored kite from only> > one side. The truth is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > Vedic period, and also that Nirayana system of astrology is more of> > Tantric origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over terminology> > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some use> > to us.> > Love,> > Sreenadh

> >> >

<%40>, > > " Bharat Hindu> > Astrology " <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > >> > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > >> > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I did> > not agree> > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as Vedic only. He uses sarcasm> > and> > > calls names to those who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > trying to> > > force his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has done

> > so in> > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent reply to his> > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > >> > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point

> > discussing> > > things with them. They are no one to determine whether Astrology is> > Vedic or> > > not. I am born to the culture and shall call it Vedic, including

> > astrology.> > >> > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather stay> > and enjoy> > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > >

> > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > >> > > On 6/15/07, Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sreenadh ,

> > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No offence to him.> > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning of " Parashara " with a> > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I understand that one meaning

> > > > attributed to " Parashara' is " The Liberated one " , that means ,> > > > Parashara can never be a single person & BPHS may be a> > contribution

> > > > of several realised souls .> > > > Unfortunately , he was finding fault with my English. I could> > > > clearly make out his sarcastic note of my English.> > > > I was under the presumption that the list was meant for learning> > > > Jyotish. Now I realise it is for learning flowery English> > Language. I> > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana Zodiac .If I> > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years back .

> > > >> > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some other alias he will> > return to> > > > vent his spite. I don't have the Time to fight neither I wish to

> > > > be the target of someone in nomdeplume .> > > >> > > > Once I left your list but returned ,as desired by you, Kumar and> > > > some other members who are my friends.

> > > >> > > > I don't want to be a disruptive influence in your list .> > > > I am sure the list will progress to new horizon ,under your able> > > > guidance

> > > > All the Best> > > > Signing off> > > >> > > > Madhu> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >

> > > >> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

Answers Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

Answers

[Guest guest]

Dear RK ji,

Some handsome points expressed by your post really attracts my

attention.

==>

For a discipline like astrology (call it Vedic, Indian or Oriental),

we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of

the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions)

being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the

contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus.

<==

The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and) heard =

Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya Tradition.

Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on written word.

Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on being the

authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all other knowledge

that is Sruti but not yet written down?!

I have a cute example in my mind - In South India astrologers use

Kavadi (shells) for doing astronomical and astrological calculations.

It should have been the same throughout India since the same is

mentioned in Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the

experts do the all the primary (addition, substation, division,

multiplication) and complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid

of these shells alone, and their method differ. For example

multiplication is always done from left to right (Not from right to

left as we practice today) using shells. (It does not matter whether

we use shells or stones for doing the same - it is immaterial). Now

the point is: THERE IS NO BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN

DETAIL - But is the system is alive with its full beauty and is

practiced and demonstrated widely by all the efficient astrologers in

Kerala! Usually the expert ones defeat even a person with calculator

in doing the same calculation with their speed of calculation and

expertise! Should we discard such valuable knowledge telling that it

is not mentioned in any text, or telling that till today no text

mentioned the system and their for it must have came to existence

recently?!! It is there well in place for ages - and it was the ONLY

system that was used for mathematical calculation in the history of

Kerala (possibly whole India) till (and after!) the advent of written

mathematical calculation methods popularized by western education.

But if we go by textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not

absurd?! Is it not amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it,

when it is handed over to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-

Sishya Parampara, when it is Sruti, why should it be written down?

That should have been the general attitude. Further there should have

been one more reason - it is very difficult to notate and explain the

system on paper, but easy to teach and learn by teaching and doing,

in the direct presence of the teacher, the direct example. OK. What

ever it be to save the system - I am preparing a written document on

the same - and that is possibly the FIRST document written on the

same, even though the systems is well known (far better than me) to

thousands of astrologers in Kerala!

So the point is it would be a very big mistake, (a very very

foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the traditional knowledge that

is handed over from mouth to ear (taught through Guru-Sishya

Parampara), but not yet written down, or for which no written proof

is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a note of this point.

==>

> However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of

> astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline

> (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes

> the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.

<==

I agree.

==>

> The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The

> spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless.

<==

I disagree completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have

already expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the

files section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given

below-

<SNIP>

" When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the

unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see

astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue

whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but

Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would

be the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and

negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or

not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result

would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is

nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art.

 

The fault lies in our view. Why should we try to cast something into

a particular mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes?

Man wants to classify everything. The truth would be always beyond

all the classifications. It stays outside all the classification

attempts. The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human

brain that tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to

erroneous knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we

are trying to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the

second mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct

knowledge and view? "

</SNIP>

 

Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and Kaul ji over

Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our discussions. By the

way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu ji and RK ji etc)

to continue with the normal predictive astrological discussion in

parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose interest. The

theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.

At the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of

astrology in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same

(and let all who are interested in the same join), since that is the

subject much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally

flowing in these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on

the " Discussions on Predictive astrological techniques " or Case

studies fully.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, rk dash

<arkaydash wrote:

>

> Dear Nair Saab,

> Welcome back. In fact you never went, your going away having been

foreclosed by Friend Shreenadh.

>

> I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the forum sees

(sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-throwing. We

seem unable to keep the subject proper in the foreground. Clarity,

consistency and quality insights should inform this foreground. All

else should be secondary.

>

> And then scholarship. Indeed.

>

> Debates about the moorings of astrology will always be fraught

with variances and dissents as indeed about many of its tenets and

assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it vedic, Indian or

Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron

bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic

expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are

written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus.

However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of

astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a

disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the

hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the

discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is

always there, nevertheless.

>

> But we have to be careful. That is my understanding.

>

> We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline are, in a way, at

a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite openness and wise

humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to bear with some of

us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the group must have

served its purpose -- that of highlighting the futility of pettiness

(Yes, I would like to see who faults someone else's English and

thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the good many of us bring

to the forum.).

>

> Sreenadh has acted his part well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have

given an even better account of himself.

>

> Let's make the most of our forum togetherness.

>

> RK Dash

>

>

> Madhu Nair <balagurusurya wrote:

> Dear Bharat,

> At the outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity

with me, for the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the

effort of pedants commited to denigrate it.

>

> I take note of your resplendent views on Nirayana Zodiac duly

quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul alias Mohan

Jyotishi ,has No answer.

>

> It is quite unfortunate, Sri Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth,

in the guise of rational thinking , unwittingly is playing into the

hands of detractors of Jyotish.

>

> Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of

different Zodiac and his views about it, with me..

>

> As desired by your good self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.

>

> With Warm Personal Regards,

>

> Madhu Nair

>

>

>

> Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology wrote:

> Namaste Sri Kaul

>

> A discussion takes place when:

>

> 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a learner and

student of mine

> 2. Both of us are open to learning, exploring.

> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a knower of

something that you seek and we ask the knower.

>

> You and I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided

on most things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by

me OR more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your

misplaced contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor

openness for learning.

>

> I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, but, I

would rather not waste time with another useless debate with you.

>

> Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I was

discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

>

>

> On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen wrote:

Shri Bharat ji,

> Namaskar!

>

> First of all I must congratulate Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the

> posts on this forum unmoderated! It needs really an open mind to do

> so!

> Now coming to your points:

> I have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with

me,

> for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish

> any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am

> no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say

> that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have

> been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc.

> Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate

them

> with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is

> Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and

so

> on and so forth!

> Kindly go through all the files that I have uploaded on this forum

> and do give a point by point reply. If you take time out to peruse

> them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that I was sailing in the

> same boat as you are sailing today! In other words, I was a more

> stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few years than nyybody

> else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse a firm believer

> in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years! Since nobody,

> including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves, whether sayana or

> nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence of Mesha,

> Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or nirayana, in

> any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur Jyotisha or

> even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken for a ride for

> quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the Vedas talk of

> nothing else but predictive gimmicks!

> It may perhaps be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any

> mention of the much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the

> Vedas or any of the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you

> know that except for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other

> sidhanta of even the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or

> Mangal, Shani etc. planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the

> Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate

> astronomical work that could have been produced by anybody!

> Ironically, Varahamihira found that very Surya Sidhanta to be the

> most accurate - spashta taro savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to

> have been the greatest Indian astrologer of all times! Naturally,

> if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data, he

> certainly is a charlatan than anything else! Thus you can say

> that " Varahamihira was the greatest charlatan of Indian astrology

of

> all times " . There was a genetleman in twentieth century also who

> could make coorect predictions about " notable horoscopes " with

> incorrect data. He was also known as the greatest Vedic astrologer

> of the twentieth century! That much for Indian astrology!

> Dhanyavad.

> , " Bharat Hindu

> Astrology " <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh

> >

> > Forcing a concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar.

Nor

> does a

> > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that

> views

> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference between a

> true scholar

> > who pursues knowledge knowing that Ignorance is so vast that he

> better be

> > humble.

> >

> > By giving useless logic and wrong translations and without

> answering any

> > queries, one does not become a Scholar.

> >

> > I reserve my judgment about this person and his " lookalikes "

> >

> > Thanks and Regards

> > Bharat

> >

>

> > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Bharat ji,

> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is cute terminology.

> > > ==>

> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to those who does not agree

to

> his

> > > > thinking.

> > > <==

> > > That is not good - if he does so.

> > > ==>

> > > > He is trying to force his way around in proving all

> > > > others are wrong.

> > > <==

> > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.

> > >

> > > ==>

> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.

> > > <==

> > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul

> itself?

> > >

> > > ==>

> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather

> stay

> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless contentions.

> > > <==

> > >

> > > I agree to the first statement and stand by the same. But would

> > > disagree to the second, since Kaul's arguments also has some

> > > supportive evidence, like a person seeing a 2 colored kite from

> only

> > > one side. The truth is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed

in

> > > Vedic period, and also that Nirayana system of astrology is

more

> of

> > > Tantric origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over

> terminology

> > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some

> use

> > > to us.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > --- In

>

> <%

> 40>,

> > > " Bharat Hindu

> > > Astrology " <hinduastrology@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu

> > > >

> > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I

> did

> > > not agree

> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as Vedic only. He uses

> sarcasm

> > > and

> > > > calls names to those who does not agree to his thinking. He is

> > > trying to

> > > > force his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has

> done

> > > so in

> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent reply

> to his

> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.

> > > >

> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point

> > > discussing

> > > > things with them. They are no one to determine whether

> Astrology is

> > > Vedic or

> > > > not. I am born to the culture and shall call it Vedic,

> including

> > > astrology.

> > > >

> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather

> stay

> > > and enjoy

> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks and Regards

> > > > Bharat

> > > >

> > > > On 6/15/07, Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sreenadh ,

> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No offence to

> him.

> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning of " Parashara "

with

> a

> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I understand that one

meaning

> > > > > attributed to " Parashara' is " The Liberated one " , that

> means ,

> > > > > Parashara can never be a single person & BPHS may be a

> > > contribution

> > > > > of several realised souls .

> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding fault with my English. I

could

> > > > > clearly make out his sarcastic note of my English.

> > > > > I was under the presumption that the list was meant for

> learning

> > > > > Jyotish. Now I realise it is for learning flowery English

> > > Language. I

> > > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana

> Zodiac .If I

> > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

back .

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some other alias he will

> > > return to

> > > > > vent his spite. I don't have the Time to fight neither I

> wish to

> > > > > be the target of someone in nomdeplume .

> > > > >

> > > > > Once I left your list but returned ,as desired by you,

Kumar

> and

> > > > > some other members who are my friends.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't want to be a disruptive influence in your list .

> > > > > I am sure the list will progress to new horizon ,under your

> able

> > > > > guidance

> > > > > All the Best

> > > > > Signing off

> > > > >

> > > > > Madhu

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

Answers

>

>

>

>

>

> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers

>

[Guest guest]

A very good explanation by Sreenath. I would like to know about the effects of sani in fourth house and with rahu with rishabha as ascendent. Please put some light on this query

 

regards

 

sasi bhushan.p

 

On 6/18/07, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call it Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and) heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all other knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi (shells) for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should have been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do the all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication) and complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is always done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice today) using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones for doing the same - it is immaterial). Now

the point is: THERE IS NO BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the system is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the expert ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should we discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system and their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there well in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole India) till (and after!) the advent of written

mathematical calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go by textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-

Sishya Parampara, when it is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason - it is very difficult to notate and explain the

system on paper, but easy to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence of the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that is possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear (taught through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I agree.==>> The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I disagree completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the files section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-<SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would be the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies in our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to classify everything. The truth would be always beyond

all the classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts. The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are trying to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge and view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive astrological discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of astrology in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let all who are interested in the same join), since that is the subject much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing in these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the " Discussions on Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies fully.

Love,Sreenadh , rk dash <arkaydash wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In fact you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology will always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is my understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the good many of us bring

to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness.

> > RK Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views on Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate, Sri Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking , unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your good self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning, exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You and I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!

> > First of all I must congratulate Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated! It needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:> I have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish > any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am > no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say > that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have > been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. > Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate

them > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is > Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and so > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If you take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In other words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years! Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves, whether sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of the much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any of the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that except for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc. planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira found that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest Indian astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan than anything else! Thus you can say

> that " Varahamihira was the greatest charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a genetleman in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was also known as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.>

, " Bharat Hindu > Astrology " <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing a concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a> > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By giving useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any> > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my judgment about this person and his " lookalikes "

> > > > Thanks and Regards> > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is cute terminology.

> > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That is not good - if he does so.

> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.

> > >> > > ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul > itself?

> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless contentions.> > > <==

> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some > use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > > <%

> 40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology " <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu

> > > >> > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I > did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > > force his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > > so in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > > >

> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point> > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to determine whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or

> > > > not. I am born to the culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > > >> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > > >> > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >

> > > > On 6/15/07, Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I understand that one meaning

> > > > > attributed to " Parashara' is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can never be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution

> > > > > of several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his sarcastic note of my English.

> > > > > I was under the presumption that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I

> > > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If I> > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years back .> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I don't have the Time to fight neither I > wish to

> > > > > be the target of someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list but returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other members who are my friends.

> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a disruptive influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress to new horizon ,under your > able

> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > > >

> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers > > > > >

> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers> -- " Let noble thoughts come to us from every side "

Sasi Bhushan.P09820868739

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh Ji,

I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic Astrology ".The getleman started giving his proof and others refusing his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his chart, we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late Dr.B.V.Raman who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic Astrology.There is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has learnt all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if he is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more profound otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.

So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss some important issues in Vedic Astrology.

I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of Astrology.

I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the existence of Vedic Astrology.

With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

 

 

From: sreesogDate: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

 

 

 

Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call it Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and) heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on being the authority of "WRITTEN TEXT"!! What will happen to all other knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi (shells) for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should have been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do the all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication) and complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is always done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice today) using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones for doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the system is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the expert ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should we discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system and their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there well in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go by textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when it is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason - it is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but easy to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence of the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that is possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear (taught through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I agree.==>> The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I disagree completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already expressed in detail in "Base of Astrology.doc" present in the files section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-<SNIP>"When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would be the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies in our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts. The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are trying to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge and view?"</SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive astrological discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At the same time let these other discussions on "Presence of astrology in Vedas" etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let all who are interested in the same join), since that is the subject much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing in these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the "Discussions on Predictive astrological techniques" or Case studies fully.Love,Sreenadh , rk dash <arkaydash wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In fact you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology will always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is my understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views on Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate, Sri Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking , unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your good self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning, exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You and I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must congratulate Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated! It needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:> I have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish > any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am > no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say > that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have > been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. > Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate them > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating "Jyotish is > Vedic", "Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said" and so > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If you take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In other words, I was a more > stauch "nirayana astrologer" for quite a few years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse a firm believer > in "Sayana Vedic astrology" for several years! Since nobody, > including the "Vedic jyotishis" themselves, whether sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps be a "revelation" to you that we do not find any > mention of the much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any of the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that except for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc. planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira found that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest Indian astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan than anything else! Thus you can say > that "Varahamihira was the greatest charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times". There was a genetleman in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions about "notable horoscopes" with > incorrect data. He was also known as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> , "Bharat Hindu > Astrology" <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing a concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a> > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By giving useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any> > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my judgment about this person and his "lookalikes" > > > > Thanks and Regards> > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > "Sri Kaul and his belief system" => That is cute terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> > > ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul > itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some > use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > > <%> 40>, > > > "Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology" <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I > did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > > force his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > > so in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > > >> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point> > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to determine whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > > >> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > > >> > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07, Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to "Parashara' is "The Liberated one" , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can never be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If I> > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I don't have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target of someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list but returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other members who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a disruptive influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress to new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers > > > > > > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers> Live Earth is coming.  Learn more about the hottest summer event - only on MSN. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramdas Rao ji,

There is a fundamental thing to be understood -

 

With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India

ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither the

ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature

(Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered holy or

religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated or

created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra.

(This is the root cause of various versions, and indecipherability

and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like Hora

Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the

Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was changed

(due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of

Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine situation

that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole system.

Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar

situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all

possibility)

 

Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with more

texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm leaves

kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able to

keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts like " Adbhuta

Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still

preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are yet to

come in print.

As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is

already melted down and what is the use of referring to it again? He

is already a friend and his contribution valuable.

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, HosabettuRamadas Rao

<ramadasrao wrote:

>

>

> Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after

joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say

one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has

started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology

and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and

idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic

Astrology " .The getleman started giving his proof and others refusing

his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his chart,

we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic

Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose

about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late Dr.B.V.Raman

who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic Astrology.There

is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from

Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query

etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about

the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has learnt

all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if he

is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more profound

otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.

> So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss some

important issues in Vedic Astrology.

> I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of

Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such

people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of Astrology.

> I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the existence

of Vedic Astrology.

> With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> Ramadas Rao.

>

>

> : sreesog: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat

(Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

>

>

>

>

> Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really

attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call it

Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding

goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much

of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the

words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional

afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and)

heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya

Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on

written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on

being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all other

knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute

example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi (shells)

for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should have

been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in

Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do the

all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication) and

complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells

alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is always

done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice today)

using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones for

doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO

BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the system

is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated

widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the expert

ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same

calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should we

discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in

any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system and

their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there well

in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for

mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole

India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical

calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go by

textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not

amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over

to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when it

is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the

general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason - it

is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but easy

to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence of

the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the

system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that is

possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the

systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of

astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big

mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the

traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear (taught

through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for

which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a

note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve

the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the

discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus)

escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I agree.==>>

The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The >

spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I disagree

completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already

expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the files

section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-

<SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the

unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see

astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue

whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but

Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would be

the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and

negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or

not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result

would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is

nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies in

our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular

mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to

classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the

classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts.

The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that

tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous

knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are trying

to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second

mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge and

view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and

Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our

discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu

ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive astrological

discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose

interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At

the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of astrology

in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let

all who are interested in the same join), since that is the subject

much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing in

these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the " Discussions on

Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies

fully.Love,Sreenadh ,

rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In fact

you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend

Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the

forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-

throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the

foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform

this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then

scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology will

always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of

its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it

vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding

goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much

of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the

words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional

afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning

of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a

disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the

hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the

discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is

always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is my

understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline

are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite

openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to

bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the

group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the

futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone

else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the

good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part

well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of

himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK

Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the

outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for

the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants

commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views on

Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul

alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate, Sri

Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking ,

unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> >

Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different

Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your good

self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal

Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology

<hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes

place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a

learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning,

exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a

knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You and

I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most

things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR

more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced

contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for

learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it,

but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with

you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I

was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and

Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@>

wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must congratulate

Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated! It

needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:> I

have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, >

for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish >

any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am >

no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say >

that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have >

been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. >

Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate them

> with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is >

Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and so

> on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have

uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If you

take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that

I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In other

words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few

years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse

a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years!

Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves, whether

sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence

of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or

nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur

Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken

for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the

Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps

be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of the

much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any of

the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that except

for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even

the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc.

planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of

Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that

could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira found

that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro

savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest Indian

astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct

predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan than

anything else! Thus you can say > that " Varahamihira was the greatest

charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a genetleman

in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions

about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was also known

as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That

much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> --- In

, " Bharat Hindu > Astrology "

<hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing a

concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a> >

Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that >

views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference

between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that

Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By giving

useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any> >

queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my judgment

about this person and his " lookalikes " > > > > Thanks and Regards>

> Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > >

Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is cute

terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to

those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That

is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force

his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > >

That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> > >

==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > >

Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul >

itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help serve

their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless

contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and

stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since

Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a

person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth

is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and

also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric

origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > >

but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some >

use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > >

<%>

40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology "

<hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> > >

> I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I >

did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as

Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those

who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > > force

his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > > so

in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent

reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > > >>

> > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point>

> > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to determine

whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the

culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > > >>

> > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather >

stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > > >>

> > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07,

Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear

Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No

offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning

of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I

understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to " Parashara'

is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can never

be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of

several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding

fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his

sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption

that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I

realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > > >

know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If I>

> > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some

other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I don't

have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target of

someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list but

returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other members

who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a disruptive

influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress to

new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the

Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > > >>

> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----

----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what you're

looking for - Answers > > > > > -------------------------------

--> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

Answers>

>

>

> _______________

> Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search

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[Guest guest]

Shri Sreenadhji,

I have read all the books by the famous astrologer. His " Notable

Horoscopes " is especialy a good for nothing book since the data at

one place does not agree with the data in the same book at another

place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book but

that as well is incorrect!

Surprisingly, correct predictions were ascribed to planetary

positions of very old charts without taking into account Delta Time

corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even 24 hours!!

Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check them

with computers today!

 

There is no personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains

that if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data he

must be a charlatan!

Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check the " horoscopic

particulars " -- at least mean planetary positions -- of

Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1, 500

AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes, whether

you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are considerable,

whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya Sidhanta, or

even Aryabhati!

 

Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the statement that spashta-taro

savitra because then today's astronomy is wrong! If that is so,

then we should stop preparing horscopes from the latest astronomical

parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya Sidhanta and so

on!

 

What is surprising all the more is that till a century back, all the

astrologers could make correct predictions from the same Surya

Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or

even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for

their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for modern

astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the

earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have been

correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must

stop taking recourse to modern astronomy!

 

Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes programs, please

rest assured that they have been checked and cross checked and

tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data etc. etc. As

on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even with any new

developments in modern astronomy, the results of the past in around

10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary by plus/minus

more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or planets. There is

no possibility of any changes in the mean elements of the sidhantas

since they have been fixed by " Surya Bhagwa " (acutally Maya the

mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change their stands now!

 

Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether you have gone

through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are available at

HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara also. I am

afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not have the

permission of the author to upload them on any other forums. Please

go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of

affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy.

 

It is alright to go on repeating like a parrot " Vedeic

astrology " " vedic astrology " but even scholars like Dr. Vartak have

yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the

scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the

names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina,

Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum.

We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such

useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha,

Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya

Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki etc.

planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to Krita,Rohini

etc. nakshatras time and again!

 

The million dollar question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list any

of the Rashis, especially since it has declared unequivocally that

what is contained therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what

is not contained therein cannot be found anywhere else!

Regards,

AKK

 

Regards,

AKK

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Ramdas Rao ji,

> There is a fundamental thing to be understood -

>

> With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India

> ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither the

> ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature

> (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered holy

or

> religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated or

> created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra.

> (This is the root cause of various versions, and indecipherability

> and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like

Hora

> Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the

> Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was changed

> (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of

> Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine situation

> that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole system.

> Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar

> situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all

> possibility)

>

> Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with more

> texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm leaves

> kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able

to

> keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts

like " Adbhuta

> Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still

> preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are yet

to

> come in print.

> As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is

> already melted down and what is the use of referring to it again?

He

> is already a friend and his contribution valuable.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , HosabettuRamadas

Rao

> <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after

> joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say

> one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has

> started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology

> and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and

> idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic

> Astrology " .The getleman started giving his proof and others

refusing

> his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his

chart,

> we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic

> Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose

> about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late

Dr.B.V.Raman

> who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic

Astrology.There

> is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from

> Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query

> etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about

> the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has

learnt

> all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if

he

> is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more

profound

> otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.

> > So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss

some

> important issues in Vedic Astrology.

> > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of

> Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such

> people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of

Astrology.

> > I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the

existence

> of Vedic Astrology.

> > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> > Ramadas Rao.

> >

> >

> > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

> 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat

> (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really

> attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call

it

> Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding

> goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

much

> of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the

> words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

intutional

> afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and)

> heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya

> Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on

> written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on

> being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all

other

> knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute

> example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi

(shells)

> for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should

have

> been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in

> Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do

the

> all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication)

and

> complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells

> alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is

always

> done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice

today)

> using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones

for

> doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO

> BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the

system

> is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated

> widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the

expert

> ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same

> calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should

we

> discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned

in

> any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system

and

> their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there

well

> in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for

> mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole

> India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical

> calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go

by

> textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not

> amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed

over

> to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when

it

> is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the

> general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason -

it

> is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but

easy

> to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence

of

> the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the

> system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that

is

> possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the

> systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of

> astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big

> mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the

> traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear

(taught

> through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for

> which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make

a

> note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve

> the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the

> discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall

corpus)

> escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I

agree.==>>

> The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art.

The >

> spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I

disagree

> completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already

> expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the

files

> section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-

> <SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the

> unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see

> astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue

> whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but

> Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would

be

> the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and

> negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or

> not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result

> would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is

> nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies

in

> our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular

> mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to

> classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the

> classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts.

> The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that

> tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous

> knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are

trying

> to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second

> mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge

and

> view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and

> Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our

> discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji,

Madhu

> ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive

astrological

> discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose

> interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At

> the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of

astrology

> in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let

> all who are interested in the same join), since that is the

subject

> much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing

in

> these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the " Discussions

on

> Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies

> fully.Love,Sreenadh--- In

,

> rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In

fact

> you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend

> Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the

> forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-

> throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the

> foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should

inform

> this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then

> scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology

will

> always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many

of

> its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call

it

> vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding

> goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

much

> of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the

> words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

intutional

> afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the

underpinning

> of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a

> disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the

> hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of

the

> discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is

> always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is

my

> understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline

> are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience,

polite

> openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you

to

> bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps)

the

> group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the

> futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone

> else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the

> good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his

part

> well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account

of

> himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK

> Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the

> outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me,

for

> the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants

> commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views

on

> Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen

Kaul

> alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate,

Sri

> Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational

thinking ,

> unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> >

> Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of

different

> Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your

good

> self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal

> Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes

> place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are

a

> learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning,

> exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I

am a

> knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You

and

> I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most

> things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR

> more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your

misplaced

> contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for

> learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing

it,

> but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate

with

> you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with

you. I

> was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and

> Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@>

> wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must

congratulate

> Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated!

It

> needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:>

I

> have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me,

>

> for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish

>

> any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I

am >

> no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say >

> that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have

>

> been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. >

> Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate

them

> > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is

>

> Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and

so

> > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have

> uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If

you

> take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see

that

> I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In

other

> words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few

> years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I

becamse

> a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years!

> Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves,

whether

> sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the

existence

> of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or

> nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the

Yajur

> Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken

> for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that

the

> Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may

perhaps

> be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of the

> much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any

of

> the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that

except

> for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even

> the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc.

> planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of

> Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that

> could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira

found

> that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro

> savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest

Indian

> astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct

> predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan

than

> anything else! Thus you can say > that " Varahamihira was the

greatest

> charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a

genetleman

> in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions

> about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was also

known

> as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That

> much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> --- In

> , " Bharat Hindu >

Astrology "

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing

a

> concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a>

>

> Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that

>

> views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference

> between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that

> Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By

giving

> useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any>

>

> queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my

judgment

> about this person and his " lookalikes " > > > > Thanks and

Regards>

> > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > >

> Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is

cute

> terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to

> those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > >

That

> is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force

> his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> >

>

> That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> >

>

> ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> >

>

> Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul >

> itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help

serve

> their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly

baseless

> contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and

> stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since

> Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a

> person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The

truth

> is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period,

and

> also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric

> origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > >

> but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some >

> use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > >

> <%

>

> 40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology "

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> >

>

> > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I >

> did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as

> Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those

> who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > >

force

> his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > >

so

> in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent

> reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > >

>>

> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no

point>

> > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to

determine

> whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the

> culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > >

>>

> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose.

Rather >

> stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > >

>>

> > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07,

> Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear

> Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No

> offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning

> of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since

I

> understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to " Parashara'

> is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can

never

> be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of

> several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding

> fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his

> sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption

> that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I

> realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > >

>

> know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If

I>

> > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

> back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some

> other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I

don't

> have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target

of

> someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list

but

> returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other

members

> who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a

disruptive

> influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress

to

> new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the

> Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > >

>>

> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --

---

> ----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what you're

> looking for - Answers > > > > > ----------------------------

---

> --> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

> Answers>

> >

> >

> > _______________

> > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search

> Club.?

> > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri SreenadhI wonder who the parrot is - one who keeps saying " Not vedic astrology " " not vedic astrology " or one who simply knows what Vedic Astrology is about. Vedas are considered by 3000 to 5000 years old by many. Are we not Vedic, despite not living in that age? The fact is Vedic is a way of life. A vedic person knows how to treat Astrology and therefore, it is Vedic Astrology. He knows the science, use and limitation of the subject. He does not need a " parrot " to fill onself with wrong beliefs. Like I said earlier, Sri Kaul tends to get personal and use borderline abusive words to aggrieve most readers. His recent email is a fine example of his modus operandi. Only ask questions, do not offer any explanations. He has not responded to any questions that you and I asked him in last one and half years. If he is arrogantly and ignorantly " convinced " about his ideas, let him practice them. Let him not abuse others. Perhaps it is time to tell the parrot to fly and not try to sound like a koel.Thanks and Regards

BharatOn 6/18/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote:

 

 

 

 

Shri Sreenadhji,

I have read all the books by the famous astrologer. His " Notable

Horoscopes " is especialy a good for nothing book since the data at

one place does not agree with the data in the same book at another

place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book but

that as well is incorrect!

Surprisingly, correct predictions were ascribed to planetary

positions of very old charts without taking into account Delta Time

corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even 24 hours!!

Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check them

with computers today!

 

There is no personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains

that if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data he

must be a charlatan!

Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check the " horoscopic

particulars " -- at least mean planetary positions -- of

Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1, 500

AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes, whether

you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are considerable,

whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya Sidhanta, or

even Aryabhati!

 

Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the statement that spashta-taro

savitra because then today's astronomy is wrong! If that is so,

then we should stop preparing horscopes from the latest astronomical

parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya Sidhanta and so

on!

 

What is surprising all the more is that till a century back, all the

astrologers could make correct predictions from the same Surya

Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or

even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for

their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for modern

astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the

earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have been

correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must

stop taking recourse to modern astronomy!

 

Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes programs, please

rest assured that they have been checked and cross checked and

tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data etc. etc. As

on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even with any new

developments in modern astronomy, the results of the past in around

10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary by plus/minus

more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or planets. There is

no possibility of any changes in the mean elements of the sidhantas

since they have been fixed by " Surya Bhagwa " (acutally Maya the

mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change their stands now!

 

Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether you have gone

through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are available at

HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara also. I am

afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not have the

permission of the author to upload them on any other forums. Please

go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of

affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy.

 

It is alright to go on repeating like a parrot " Vedeic

astrology " " vedic astrology " but even scholars like Dr. Vartak have

yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the

scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the

names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina,

Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum.

We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such

useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha,

Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya

Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki etc.

planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to Krita,Rohini

etc. nakshatras time and again!

 

The million dollar question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list any

of the Rashis, especially since it has declared unequivocally that

what is contained therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what

is not contained therein cannot be found anywhere else!

Regards,

AKK

 

Regards,

AKK

, " Sreenadh "

 

<sreesog wrote:

>

> Dear Ramdas Rao ji,

> There is a fundamental thing to be understood -

>

> With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India

> ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither the

> ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature

> (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered holy

or

> religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated or

> created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra.

> (This is the root cause of various versions, and indecipherability

> and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like

Hora

> Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the

> Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was changed

> (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of

> Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine situation

> that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole system.

> Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar

> situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all

> possibility)

>

> Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with more

> texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm leaves

> kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able

to

> keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts

like " Adbhuta

> Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still

> preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are yet

to

> come in print.

> As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is

> already melted down and what is the use of referring to it again?

He

> is already a friend and his contribution valuable.

> Love,

> Sreenadh

>

> , HosabettuRamadas

Rao

> <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after

> joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say

> one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has

> started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology

> and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and

> idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic

> Astrology " .The getleman started giving his proof and others

refusing

> his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his

chart,

> we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic

> Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose

> about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late

Dr.B.V.Raman

> who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic

Astrology.There

> is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from

> Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query

> etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about

> the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has

learnt

> all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if

he

> is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more

profound

> otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.

> > So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss

some

> important issues in Vedic Astrology.

> > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of

> Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such

> people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of

Astrology.

> > I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the

existence

> of Vedic Astrology.

> > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> > Ramadas Rao.

> >

> >

> > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

> 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat

> (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really

> attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call

it

> Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding

> goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

much

> of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the

> words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

intutional

> afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and)

> heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya

> Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on

> written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on

> being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all

other

> knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute

> example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi

(shells)

> for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should

have

> been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in

> Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do

the

> all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication)

and

> complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells

> alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is

always

> done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice

today)

> using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones

for

> doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO

> BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the

system

> is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated

> widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the

expert

> ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same

> calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should

we

> discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned

in

> any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system

and

> their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there

well

> in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for

> mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole

> India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical

> calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go

by

> textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not

> amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed

over

> to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when

it

> is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the

> general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason -

it

> is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but

easy

> to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence

of

> the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the

> system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that

is

> possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the

> systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of

> astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big

> mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the

> traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear

(taught

> through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for

> which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make

a

> note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve

> the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the

> discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall

corpus)

> escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I

agree.==>>

> The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art.

The >

> spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I

disagree

> completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already

> expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the

files

> section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-

> <SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the

> unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see

> astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue

> whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but

> Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would

be

> the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and

> negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or

> not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result

> would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is

> nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies

in

> our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular

> mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to

> classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the

> classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts.

> The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that

> tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous

> knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are

trying

> to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second

> mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge

and

> view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and

> Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our

> discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji,

Madhu

> ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive

astrological

> discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose

> interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At

> the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of

astrology

> in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let

> all who are interested in the same join), since that is the

subject

> much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing

in

> these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the " Discussions

on

> Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies

> fully.Love,Sreenadh

,

> rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In

fact

> you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend

> Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the

> forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-

> throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the

> foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should

inform

> this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then

> scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology

will

> always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many

of

> its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call

it

> vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding

> goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

much

> of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the

> words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

intutional

> afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the

underpinning

> of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a

> disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the

> hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of

the

> discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is

> always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is

my

> understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline

> are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience,

polite

> openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you

to

> bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps)

the

> group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the

> futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone

> else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the

> good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his

part

> well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account

of

> himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK

> Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the

> outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me,

for

> the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants

> commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views

on

> Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen

Kaul

> alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate,

Sri

> Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational

thinking ,

> unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> >

> Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of

different

> Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your

good

> self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal

> Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes

> place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are

a

> learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning,

> exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I

am a

> knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You

and

> I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most

> things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR

> more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your

misplaced

> contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for

> learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing

it,

> but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate

with

> you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with

you. I

> was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and

> Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@>

> wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must

congratulate

> Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated!

It

> needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:>

I

> have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me,

>

> for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish

>

> any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I

am >

> no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say >

> that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have

>

> been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. >

> Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate

them

> > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is

>

> Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and

so

> > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have

> uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If

you

> take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see

that

> I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In

other

> words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few

> years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I

becamse

> a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years!

> Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves,

whether

> sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the

existence

> of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or

> nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the

Yajur

> Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken

> for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that

the

> Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may

perhaps

> be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of the

> much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any

of

> the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that

except

> for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even

> the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc.

> planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of

> Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that

> could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira

found

> that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro

> savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest

Indian

> astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct

> predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan

than

> anything else! Thus you can say > that " Varahamihira was the

greatest

> charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a

genetleman

> in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions

> about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was also

known

> as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That

> much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.>

> , " Bharat Hindu >

Astrology "

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing

a

> concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a>

>

> Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that

>

> views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference

> between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that

> Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By

giving

> useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any>

>

> queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my

judgment

> about this person and his " lookalikes " > > > > Thanks and

Regards>

> > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > >

> Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is

cute

> terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to

> those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > >

That

> is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force

> his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> >

>

> That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> >

>

> ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> >

>

> Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul >

> itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help

serve

> their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly

baseless

> contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and

> stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since

> Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a

> person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The

truth

> is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period,

and

> also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric

> origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > >

> but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some >

> use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > >

> <%

>

> 40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology "

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> >

>

> > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I >

> did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as

> Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those

> who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > >

force

> his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > >

so

> in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent

> reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > >

>>

> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no

point>

> > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to

determine

> whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the

> culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > >

>>

> > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose.

Rather >

> stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > >

>>

> > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07,

> Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear

> Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No

> offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning

> of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since

I

> understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to " Parashara'

> is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can

never

> be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of

> several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding

> fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his

> sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption

> that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I

> realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > >

>

> know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If

I>

> > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

> back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some

> other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I

don't

> have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target

of

> someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list

but

> returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other

members

> who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a

disruptive

> influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress

to

> new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the

> Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > >

>>

> > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --

---

> ----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what you're

> looking for - Answers > > > > > ----------------------------

---

> --> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

> Answers>

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search

> Club.?

> > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh Ji,

I reproduce here a Shloka from Varaha Mihira's Brihat Jataka regarding Meshaadi Rashis Swarupas :

 

matsyaughatI nrumithunaM sagadaM savINaM.

caapInarOshrujaghano makarao mrugaasyaH..

tauLisasasyadahanaa plavagaaca kanyaa.

shEShaassvanaama sadrushaa ssvacaraascha sarve..

I think as there are Sanskrit scholars in this list I need not elaborate the above Shloka.But simply Varaha Mihiracharya starts with Meena Rashi,then explains the swarupa of Kumbha Rashi,then Mithuna Rashi,Dhanu Rashi,Makara Rashi ( Mrugaasya Makaro ), then Tula Rashi,Kanya Rashi,then he says shEshaa means the the remaining unnamed Rashis ie., Mesha,Vrishabha, Kataka, Simha and Vrischika resemble their Swarupas.

I hope this helps.

With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

 

 

 

From: jyotirvedDate: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:50:31 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

 

 

 

Shri Sreenadhji,I have read all the books by the famous astrologer. His "Notable Horoscopes" is especialy a good for nothing book since the data at one place does not agree with the data in the same book at another place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book but that as well is incorrect!Surprisingly, correct predictions were ascribed to planetary positions of very old charts without taking into account Delta Time corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even 24 hours!! Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check them with computers today!There is no personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains that if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data he must be a charlatan!Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check the "horoscopic particulars" -- at least mean planetary positions -- of Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1, 500 AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes, whether you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are considerable, whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya Sidhanta, or even Aryabhati!Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the statement that spashta-taro savitra because then today's astronomy is wrong! If that is so, then we should stop preparing horscopes from the latest astronomical parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya Sidhanta and so on!What is surprising all the more is that till a century back, all the astrologers could make correct predictions from the same Surya Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for modern astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have been correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must stop taking recourse to modern astronomy!Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes programs, please rest assured that they have been checked and cross checked and tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data etc. etc. As on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even with any new developments in modern astronomy, the results of the past in around 10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary by plus/minus more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or planets. There is no possibility of any changes in the mean elements of the sidhantas since they have been fixed by "Surya Bhagwa" (acutally Maya the mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change their stands now!Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether you have gone through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are available at HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara also. I am afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not have the permission of the author to upload them on any other forums. Please go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy. It is alright to go on repeating like a parrot "Vedeic astrologyvedic astrology" but even scholars like Dr. Vartak have yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina, Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum. We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha, Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki etc. planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to Krita,Rohini etc. nakshatras time and again!The million dollar question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list any of the Rashis, especially since it has declared unequivocally that what is contained therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what is not contained therein cannot be found anywhere else!Regards,AKKRegards,AKK , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Ramdas Rao ji,> There is a fundamental thing to be understood -> > With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India > ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither the > ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature > (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered holy or > religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated or > created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra. > (This is the root cause of various versions, and indecipherability > and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like Hora > Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the > Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was changed > (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of > Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine situation > that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole system. > Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar > situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all > possibility) > > Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with more > texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm leaves > kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able to > keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts like "Adbhuta > Sagara" (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still > preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are yet to > come in print.> As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is > already melted down and what is the use of referring to it again? He > is already a friend and his contribution valuable.> Love,> Sreenadh> > , HosabettuRamadas Rao > <ramadasrao@> wrote:> >> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after > joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say > one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has > started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology > and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and > idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic > Astrology ".The getleman started giving his proof and others refusing > his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his chart, > we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic > Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose > about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late Dr.B.V.Raman > who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic Astrology.There > is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from > Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query > etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about > the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has learnt > all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if he > is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more profound > otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.> > So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss some > important issues in Vedic Astrology.> > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of > Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such > people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of Astrology.> > I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the existence > of Vedic Astrology.> > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 > 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat > (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)> > > > > > > > > > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really > attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call it > Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional > afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and) > heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya > Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on > written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on > being the authority of "WRITTEN TEXT"!! What will happen to all other > knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute > example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi (shells) > for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should have > been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in > Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do the > all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication) and > complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells > alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is always > done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice today) > using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones for > doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO > BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the system > is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated > widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the expert > ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same > calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should we > discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in > any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system and > their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there well > in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for > mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole > India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical > calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go by > textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not > amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over > to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when it > is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the > general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason - it > is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but easy > to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence of > the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the > system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that is > possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the > systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of > astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big > mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the > traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear (taught > through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for > which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a > note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve > the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the > discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) > escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I agree.==>> > The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The > > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I disagree > completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already > expressed in detail in "Base of Astrology.doc" present in the files > section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-> <SNIP>"When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the > unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see > astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue > whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but > Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would be > the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and > negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or > not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result > would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is > nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies in > our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular > mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to > classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the > classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts. > The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that > tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous > knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are trying > to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second > mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge and > view?"</SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and > Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our > discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu > ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive astrological > discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose > interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At > the same time let these other discussions on "Presence of astrology > in Vedas" etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let > all who are interested in the same join), since that is the subject > much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing in > these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the "Discussions on > Predictive astrological techniques" or Case studies > fully.Love,Sreenadh , > rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In fact > you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend > Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the > forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-> throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the > foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform > this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then > scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology will > always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of > its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it > vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional > afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning > of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a > disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the > hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the > discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is > always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is my > understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline > are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite > openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to > bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the > group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the > futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone > else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the > good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part > well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of > himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK > Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the > outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for > the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants > commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views on > Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul > alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate, Sri > Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking , > unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> > > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different > Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your good > self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal > Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes > place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a > learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning, > exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a > knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You and > I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most > things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR > more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced > contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for > learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, > but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with > you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I > was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and > Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@> > wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must congratulate > Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated! It > needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:> I > have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, > > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish > > any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am > > no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say > > that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have > > been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. > > Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate them > > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating "Jyotish is > > Vedic", "Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said" and so > > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have > uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If you > take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that > I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In other > words, I was a more > stauch "nirayana astrologer" for quite a few > years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse > a firm believer > in "Sayana Vedic astrology" for several years! > Since nobody, > including the "Vedic jyotishis" themselves, whether > sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence > of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or > nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur > Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken > for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the > Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps > be a "revelation" to you that we do not find any > mention of the > much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any of > the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that except > for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even > the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc. > planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of > Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that > could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira found > that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro > savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest Indian > astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct > predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan than > anything else! Thus you can say > that "Varahamihira was the greatest > charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times". There was a genetleman > in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions > about "notable horoscopes" with > incorrect data. He was also known > as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That > much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> > , "Bharat Hindu > Astrology" > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing a > concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a> > > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that > > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference > between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that > Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By giving > useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any> > > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my judgment > about this person and his "lookalikes" > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > "Sri Kaul and his belief system" => That is cute > terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to > those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That > is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force > his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> > > > ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul > > itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help serve > their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless > contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and > stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since > Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a > person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth > is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and > also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric > origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some > > use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > > > <%> > 40>, > > > "Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology" > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> > > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I > > did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as > Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those > who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > > force > his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > > so > in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent > reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > > >> > > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point> > > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to determine > whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the > culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > > >> > > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > > >> > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07, > Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear > Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No > offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning > of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I > understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to "Parashara' > is "The Liberated one" , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can never > be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of > several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding > fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his > sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption > that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I > realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If I> > > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years > back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some > other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I don't > have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target of > someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list but > returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other members > who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a disruptive > influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress to > new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the > Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----> ----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what you're > looking for - Answers > > > > > -------------------------------> --> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - > Answers> > > > > > > ________> > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search > Club.?> > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink> >> Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! Check out the New MSN Mobile

[Guest guest]

" Why does the Mahbharata not list any of the Rashis, especially since

it has declared unequivocally that what is contained therein is

contaiend in other shaastras and what is not contained therein cannot

be found anywhere else! "

 

quoting out of context from the volume of mahabharath is not correct.

 

there are umpteen shastraas written and orally transmitted.its humanly

not possible to quote each and every shastra,and then get into

argumentative mode about translations of each and every word in the

shastra.do us a favor,tell us what you want to acheive by saying

jyotish vidya is humbug?what is the alternate that you have then?if

majority wins please be polite and leave us alone with our own jyotish

vidya of our ancient citizens.thanks.

jk

 

 

, HosabettuRamadas Rao

<ramadasrao wrote:

>

>

> Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> I reproduce here a Shloka from Varaha Mihira's Brihat Jataka

regarding Meshaadi Rashis Swarupas :

>

> matsyaughatI nrumithunaM sagadaM savINaM.

> caapInarOshrujaghano makarao mrugaasyaH..

> tauLisasasyadahanaa plavagaaca kanyaa.

> shEShaassvanaama sadrushaa ssvacaraascha sarve..

> I think as there are Sanskrit scholars in this list I need not

elaborate the above Shloka.But simply Varaha Mihiracharya starts with

Meena Rashi,then explains the swarupa of Kumbha Rashi,then Mithuna

Rashi,Dhanu Rashi,Makara Rashi ( Mrugaasya Makaro ), then Tula

Rashi,Kanya Rashi,then he says shEshaa means the the remaining unnamed

Rashis ie., Mesha,Vrishabha, Kataka, Simha and Vrischika resemble

their Swarupas.

> I hope this helps.

> With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> Ramadas Rao.

>

>

>

> : jyotirved: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

16:50:31 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat

(Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

>

>

>

>

> Shri Sreenadhji,I have read all the books by the famous astrologer.

His " Notable Horoscopes " is especialy a good for nothing book since

the data at one place does not agree with the data in the same book at

another place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book

but that as well is incorrect!Surprisingly, correct predictions were

ascribed to planetary positions of very old charts without taking into

account Delta Time corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even

24 hours!! Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check

them with computers today!There is no personal vendetta about anybody!

But the fact remains that if someone can make correct predictions from

incorrect data he must be a charlatan!Now that you have Ganesh

programs you can check the " horoscopic particulars " -- at least mean

planetary positions -- of Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12

noon on January 1, 500 AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary

longitudes, whether you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are

considerable, whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya

Sidhanta, or even Aryabhati!Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the

statement that spashta-taro savitra because then today's astronomy is

wrong! If that is so, then we should stop preparing horscopes from the

latest astronomical parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya

Sidhanta and so on!What is surprising all the more is that till a

century back, all the astrologers could make correct predictions from

the same Surya Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta

Sidhanta or even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to

vouch for their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for

modern astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the

earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have been

correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must stop

taking recourse to modern astronomy!Regarding the parameters used in

Ganesh and Mahes programs, please rest assured that they have been

checked and cross checked and tallied hudnreds of times with all the

available data etc. etc. As on date, Mahesh is the most accurate

program and even with any new developments in modern astronomy, the

results of the past in around 10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD

will not vary by plus/minus more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or

moon or planets. There is no possibility of any changes in the mean

elements of the sidhantas since they have been fixed by " Surya Bhagwa "

(acutally Maya the mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change

their stands now!Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether

you have gone through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are

available at HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara

also. I am afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not

have the permission of the author to upload them on any other forums.

Please go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of

affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy. It is alright

to go on repeating like a parrot " Vedeic astrology " " vedic astrology "

but even scholars like Dr. Vartak have yet to find Makara Rashi in any

of the Vedas! Can any of the scholars of this forum give me the exact

mantra which gives the names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha,

Vrisha etc. or Mina, Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the

scholars of this forum. We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha

is silent about such useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha,

Atharva Jytoisha, Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even

Surya Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki

etc. planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to

Krita,Rohini etc. nakshatras time and again!The million dollar

question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list any of the Rashis,

especially since it has declared unequivocally that what is contained

therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what is not contained

therein cannot be found anywhere else!Regards,AKKRegards,AKK--- In

, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@>

wrote:>> Dear Ramdas Rao ji,> There is a fundamental thing to be

understood -> > With the rule of Muslims and British especially in

North India > ancient astrological books become almost unavailable.

Neither the > ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic

literature > (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were

considered holy or > religious in nature. The astrologers in North

india accumulated or > created what is left behind in memory as BPHS

and Jaimini Sutra. > (This is the root cause of various versions, and

indecipherability > and incompleteness of these text). Even though

good texts like Hora > Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they

come out of the > Manuscript libraries later only. But style the

system was changed > (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the

correct use of > Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the

genuine situation > that prompts an individual like AKK to question

the whole system. > Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this.

If in similar > situation may be I too might have done the same (there

is all > possibility) > > Now the situation is changing in the field

of astrology with more > texts coming out of the manuscript libraries,

or from palm leaves > kept by traditions or from south India (where

astrology was able to > keep its continuity). There are hindered of

good texts like " Adbhuta > Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi

hora slokas) still > preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North

India which are yet to > come in print.> As of the heated discussion

AKK started is concerned now it is > already melted down and what is

the use of referring to it again? He > is already a friend and his

contribution valuable.> Love,> Sreenadh> > --- In

, HosabettuRamadas Rao >

<ramadasrao@> wrote:> >> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I joined this list

recently as I have been invited.But after > joining, I found a lot of

mails of abusing each other or I can say > one gentleman who is so

completely versed with our Vedas etc.has > started arguing about the

existence of the age old Vedic Astrology > and forcing the members of

the list to agree his theories and > idologies etc.This is not all a

discussion about " Ancient Vedic > Astrology " .The getleman started

giving his proof and others refusing > his theories etc.Here the main

thing is that if we analyse his chart, > we can come to know why is

denying the age old Vedic > Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science

and not to be talked loose > about it.Let him try to read the books

written by Late Dr.B.V.Raman > who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira

about Vedic Astrology.There > is another famous tratise on Prashna

called Prashna Margam from > Kerala deals about the various methods

regarding Prashna or Query > etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the

author has explained about > the qualifications of an Astrologer and

many more.One who has learnt > all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly

knowledgeable person but if he > is following the Vedas,then only

those knowledge become more profound > otherwise it is like SUN

enclosed with dark clouds.> > So here I am not going to waste time of

anybody rather discuss some > important issues in Vedic Astrology.> >

I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of > Jyotish

knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such > people

who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of Astrology.> > I

will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the existence > of

Vedic Astrology.> > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,> >

Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > @: sreesog@: Mon,

18 Jun 2007 > 05:27:00 +0000 Re:

Dear Bharat > (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)> > >

> > > > > > > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post

really > attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology

(call it > Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda

(as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of

mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are destined

to hold intutional > afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear.

Sruti = (told and) > heard = Taught (handed over to generations)

through Guru-Sishya > Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where

everybody depends on > written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed

the authority on > being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will

happen to all other > knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written

down?! I have a cute > example in my mind - In South India astrologers

use Kavadi (shells) > for doing astronomical and astrological

calculations. It should have > been the same throughout India since

the same is mentioned in > Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is

cute and the experts do the > all the primary (addition, substation,

division, multiplication) and > complex (Astronomical) mathematics

with the aid of these shells > alone, and their method differ. For

example multiplication is always > done from left to right (Not from

right to left as we practice today) > using shells. (It does not

matter whether we use shells or stones for > doing the same - it is

immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO > BOOK WRITTEN YET TO

DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the system > is alive with its

full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated > widely by all the

efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the expert > ones defeat even

a person with calculator in doing the same > calculation with their

speed of calculation and expertise! Should we > discard such valuable

knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in > any text, or telling

that till today no text mentioned the system and > their for it must

have came to existence recently?!! It is there well > in place for

ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for > mathematical

calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole > India) till

(and after!) the advent of written mathematical > calculation methods

popularized by western education. But if we go by > textual reference

we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not > amazing?! The truth

is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over > to generations

through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when it > is Sruti, why

should it be written down? That should have been the > general

attitude. Further there should have been one more reason - it > is

very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but easy >

to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence of >

the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the >

system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that is >

possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the >

systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of >

astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big >

mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the >

traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear (taught >

through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for >

which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a >

note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve >

the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the >

discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus)

> escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I agree.==>>

> The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The

> > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I

disagree > completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have

already > expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in

the files > section of the forum. The quote from that document, is

given below-> <SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of

astrology, the > unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must

try to see > astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should

we argue > whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is

nothing but > Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not,

what would be > the answer? It will only create an unending array of

positive and > negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is

science or > not, even without my intervention, one will know that the

result > would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and

astrology is > nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The

fault lies in > our view. Why should we try to cast something into a

particular > mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man

wants to > classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all

the > classifications. It stays outside all the classification

attempts. > The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human

brain that > tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to

erroneous > knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we

are trying > to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the

second > mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct

knowledge and > view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between

Madhu ji and > Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back

on our > discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit

ji, Madhu > ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive

astrological > discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody

many lose > interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest

to all.At > the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of

astrology > in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same

(and let > all who are interested in the same join), since that is the

subject > much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally

flowing in > these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the

" Discussions on > Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies

> fully.Love,Sreenadh ,

> rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In fact

> you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend >

Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the >

forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude->

throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the >

foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform >

this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then >

scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology will >

always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of

> its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it

> vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding >

goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much >

of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the >

words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional >

afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning

> of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a >

disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the >

hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the >

discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is >

always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is my

> understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline >

are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite

> openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to

> bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the

> group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the >

futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone >

else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the >

good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part >

well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of >

himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK >

Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the >

outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for >

the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants >

commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views on

> Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen

Kaul > alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite

unfortunate, Sri > Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of

rational thinking , > unwittingly is playing into the hands of

detractors of Jyotish.> > > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the

entire issue of different > Zodiac and his views about it, with me..>

> As desired by your good > self and Sreenadh , I am back in the

list.> > With Warm Personal > Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat

Hindu Astrology > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A

discussion takes > place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of

yours or you are a > learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are

open to learning, > exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something

that I seek or I am a > knower of something that you seek and we ask

the knower. > > You and > I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You

are pre-decided on most > things. You have not answered close to 20

queries put up by me OR > more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us

to answer your misplaced > contentions, especially when you have no

attitude nor openness for > learning. > > I am not busy for seeking

knowledge or for sharing it, > but, I would rather not waste time with

another useless debate with > you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was

not even discussing with you. I > was discussing with Sri Madhu and

Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and > Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07,

Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@> > wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> >

First of all I must congratulate > Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the >

posts on this forum unmoderated! It > needs really an open mind to do

> so!> Now coming to your points:> I > have never asked anyone to

agree with me or even disagree with me, > > for that matter. In a

democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish > > any system for being

fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am > > no cop, please rest

assured! The problem arises only when we say > > that these gimmicks

of predictions are based on the Vedas and have > > been revealed by

Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. > > Naturally, anybody

making such claims will have to substantiate them > > with chapter and

verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is > > Vedic " , " Jyotish is

based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and so > > on and so forth!

> Kindly go through all the files that I have > uploaded on this forum

> and do give a point by point reply. If you > take time out to peruse

> them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that > I was sailing in the >

same boat as you are sailing today! In other > words, I was a more >

stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a few > years than nyybody >

else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse > a firm believer > in

" Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years! > Since nobody, >

including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves, whether > sayana or >

nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence > of Mesha, >

Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or > nirayana, in

> any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur > Jyotisha or

> even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken > for a ride

for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the > Vedas

talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps > be a

" revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of the > much

dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any of > the

Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that except >

for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even >

the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc. >

planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of >

Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that >

could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira found

> that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro >

savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest Indian >

astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct >

predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan than >

anything else! Thus you can say > that " Varahamihira was the greatest

> charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a

genetleman > in twentieth century also who > could make coorect

predictions > about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was

also known > as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth

century! That > much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> >

, " Bharat Hindu > Astrology " >

<hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing a >

concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a> > >

Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that > >

views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference >

between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that >

Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By giving >

useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any> > >

queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my judgment >

about this person and his " lookalikes " > > > > Thanks and Regards> >

> Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > >

Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is cute

> terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to >

those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That

> is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force >

his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > > >

That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> > > >

==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > > >

Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul > >

itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help serve >

their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless >

contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and >

stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since >

Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a >

person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth >

is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and >

also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric >

origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > > >

but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some > >

use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > > >

<%> >

40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology " >

<hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> > > >

> I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I > >

did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as >

Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those >

who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > > force

> his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > >

so > in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent

> reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > >

>> > > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no

point> > > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to

determine > whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born

to the > culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.>

> > >> > > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose.

Rather > > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless

contentions.> > > >> > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >>

> > > On 6/15/07, > Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> >

> > > Dear > Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I

meant No > offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the

meaning > of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar,

since I > understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to

" Parashara' > is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > >

Parashara can never > be a single person & BPHS may be a> > >

contribution> > > > > of > several realised souls .> > > > >

Unfortunately , he was finding > fault with my English. I could> > > >

> clearly make out his > sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was

under the presumption > that the list was meant for > learning> > > >

> Jyotish. Now I > realise it is for learning flowery English> > >

Language. I> > > > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to

Nirayana > Zodiac .If I> > > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed

his ephemeris, years > back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as

Mohan or in some > other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent

his spite. I don't > have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > >

> be the target of > someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I

left your list but > returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > >

some other members > who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't

want to be a disruptive > influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure

the list will progress to > new horizon ,under your > able> > > > >

guidance> > > > > All the > Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > >

> Madhu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > -----> ----------------------------> Here's a

new way to find what you're > looking for - Answers > > > > >

-------------------------------> --> Here's a new way to find what

you're looking for - > Answers> > > > > > >

________> > Play

free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search > Club.?>

> http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink> >>

>

>

> _______________

> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!

> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Bharat ji,

Please avoid calling names!

==>

> Like I said earlier, Sri Kaul tends to get personal and use

> borderline abusive words to aggrieve most readers.

<==

If he does or did so that does not become a license or model to do

the same!

 

==>

> If he is arrogantly and ignorantly " convinced " about his ideas,

> let him practice them. Let him not abuse others.

<==

That much I can agree.

 

But the contributions of everybody is valid - It is those who with a

fire inside (they usually used to get in fight with others as well -

near by examples - Chandrahari, AKK, Patrizia, PVR - in various

forms) who has some thing special to contribute as well. So THEY ARE

SPECIAL (even after all possible fights).

 

But for sure we will fight with them – and that is how we extract the

honey, like honey bees – collecting honey from the flowers. But

as seekers of knowledge, what we extract is knowledge and info to be

digested in a way that tallies with the unique taste of us (every

individual).

 

Note: However the flower smells, whether it be beautiful or ugly, if

honey is there bees are sure to come.

 

Love,

Sreenadh

 

 

, " Bharat Hindu

Astrology " <hinduastrology wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Sreenadh

>

> I wonder who the parrot is - one who keeps saying " Not vedic

astrology "

> " not vedic astrology " or one who simply knows what Vedic Astrology

is about.

>

>

> Vedas are considered by 3000 to 5000 years old by many. Are we not

Vedic,

> despite not living in that age? The fact is Vedic is a way of life.

A vedic

> person knows how to treat Astrology and therefore, it is Vedic

Astrology. He

> knows the science, use and limitation of the subject. He does not

need a

> " parrot " to fill onself with wrong beliefs.

>

> Like I said earlier, Sri Kaul tends to get personal and use

borderline

> abusive words to aggrieve most readers. His recent email is a fine

example

> of his modus operandi. Only ask questions, do not offer any

explanations. He

> has not responded to any questions that you and I asked him in last

one and

> half years.

>

> If he is arrogantly and ignorantly " convinced " about his ideas,

let him

> practice them. Let him not abuse others. Perhaps it is time to tell

the

> parrot to fly and not try to sound like a koel.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

>

>

> On 6/18/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote:

> >

> > Shri Sreenadhji,

> > I have read all the books by the famous astrologer. His " Notable

> > Horoscopes " is especialy a good for nothing book since the data at

> > one place does not agree with the data in the same book at another

> > place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book but

> > that as well is incorrect!

> > Surprisingly, correct predictions were ascribed to planetary

> > positions of very old charts without taking into account Delta

Time

> > corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even 24 hours!!

> > Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check them

> > with computers today!

> >

> > There is no personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains

> > that if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data

he

> > must be a charlatan!

> > Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check the " horoscopic

> > particulars " -- at least mean planetary positions -- of

> > Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1, 500

> > AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes, whether

> > you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are considerable,

> > whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya Sidhanta, or

> > even Aryabhati!

> >

> > Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the statement that spashta-taro

> > savitra because then today's astronomy is wrong! If that is so,

> > then we should stop preparing horscopes from the latest

astronomical

> > parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya Sidhanta and so

> > on!

> >

> > What is surprising all the more is that till a century back, all

the

> > astrologers could make correct predictions from the same Surya

> > Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or

> > even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for

> > their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for modern

> > astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the

> > earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have

been

> > correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must

> > stop taking recourse to modern astronomy!

> >

> > Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes programs, please

> > rest assured that they have been checked and cross checked and

> > tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data etc. etc. As

> > on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even with any new

> > developments in modern astronomy, the results of the past in

around

> > 10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary by plus/minus

> > more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or planets. There is

> > no possibility of any changes in the mean elements of the

sidhantas

> > since they have been fixed by " Surya Bhagwa " (acutally Maya the

> > mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change their stands

now!

> >

> > Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether you have gone

> > through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are available at

> > HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara also. I am

> > afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not have the

> > permission of the author to upload them on any other forums.

Please

> > go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of

> > affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy.

> >

> > It is alright to go on repeating like a parrot " Vedeic

> > astrology " " vedic astrology " but even scholars like Dr. Vartak

have

> > yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the

> > scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the

> > names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina,

> > Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum.

> > We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such

> > useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha,

> > Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya

> > Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki

etc.

> > planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to

Krita,Rohini

> > etc. nakshatras time and again!

> >

> > The million dollar question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list

any

> > of the Rashis, especially since it has declared unequivocally that

> > what is contained therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what

> > is not contained therein cannot be found anywhere else!

> > Regards,

> > AKK

> >

> > Regards,

> > AKK

> > --- In

<%

40>,

> > " Sreenadh "

> >

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Ramdas Rao ji,

> > > There is a fundamental thing to be understood -

> > >

> > > With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India

> > > ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither

the

> > > ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature

> > > (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered

holy

> > or

> > > religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated

or

> > > created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra.

> > > (This is the root cause of various versions, and

indecipherability

> > > and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like

> > Hora

> > > Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the

> > > Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was

changed

> > > (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of

> > > Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine

situation

> > > that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole

system.

> > > Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar

> > > situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all

> > > possibility)

> > >

> > > Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with

more

> > > texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm

leaves

> > > kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able

> > to

> > > keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts

> > like " Adbhuta

> > > Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still

> > > preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are

yet

> > to

> > > come in print.

> > > As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is

> > > already melted down and what is the use of referring to it

again?

> > He

> > > is already a friend and his contribution valuable.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > --- In

<%

40>,

> > HosabettuRamadas

> > Rao

> > > <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > > > I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after

> > > joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can

say

> > > one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has

> > > started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic

Astrology

> > > and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and

> > > idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic

> > > Astrology " .The getleman started giving his proof and others

> > refusing

> > > his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his

> > chart,

> > > we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic

> > > Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked

loose

> > > about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late

> > Dr.B.V.Raman

> > > who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic

> > Astrology.There

> > > is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from

> > > Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or

Query

> > > etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained

about

> > > the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has

> > learnt

> > > all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but

if

> > he

> > > is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more

> > profound

> > > otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.

> > > > So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss

> > some

> > > important issues in Vedic Astrology.

> > > > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of

> > > Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to

such

> > > people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of

> > Astrology.

> > > > I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the

> > existence

> > > of Vedic Astrology.

> > > > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> > > > Ramadas Rao.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

> > > 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear

Bharat

> > > (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really

> > > attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology

(call

> > it

> > > Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding

> > > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

> > much

> > > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where

the

> > > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

> > intutional

> > > afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told

and)

> > > heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya

> > > Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on

> > > written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on

> > > being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all

> > other

> > > knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute

> > > example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi

> > (shells)

> > > for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should

> > have

> > > been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in

> > > Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts

do

> > the

> > > all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication)

> > and

> > > complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells

> > > alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is

> > always

> > > done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice

> > today)

> > > using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or

stones

> > for

> > > doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS

NO

> > > BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the

> > system

> > > is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated

> > > widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the

> > expert

> > > ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same

> > > calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise!

Should

> > we

> > > discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned

> > in

> > > any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the

system

> > and

> > > their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there

> > well

> > > in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for

> > > mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly

whole

> > > India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical

> > > calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we

go

> > by

> > > textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not

> > > amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed

> > over

> > > to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara,

when

> > it

> > > is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been

the

> > > general attitude. Further there should have been one more

reason -

> > it

> > > is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but

> > easy

> > > to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence

> > of

> > > the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the

> > > system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and

that

> > is

> > > possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the

> > > systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of

> > > astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big

> > > mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the

> > > traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear

> > (taught

> > > through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for

> > > which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also

make

> > a

> > > note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to

serve

> > > the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the

> > > discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall

> > corpus)

> > > escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I

> > agree.==>>

> > > The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art.

> > The >

> > > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I

> > disagree

> > > completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already

> > > expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the

> > files

> > > section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given

below-

> > > <SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of astrology,

the

> > > unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see

> > > astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we

argue

> > > whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but

> > > Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what

would

> > be

> > > the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive

and

> > > negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science

or

> > > not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result

> > > would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology

is

> > > nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault

lies

> > in

> > > our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular

> > > mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants

to

> > > classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the

> > > classifications. It stays outside all the classification

attempts.

> > > The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain

that

> > > tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to

erroneous

> > > knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are

> > trying

> > > to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second

> > > mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge

> > and

> > > view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji

and

> > > Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our

> > > discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji,

> > Madhu

> > > ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive

> > astrological

> > > discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose

> > > interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to

all.At

> > > the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of

> > astrology

> > > in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and

let

> > > all who are interested in the same join), since that is the

> > subject

> > > much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing

> > in

> > > these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on

the " Discussions

> > on

> > > Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies

> > > fully.Love,Sreenadh--- In

> > <%

40>,

> >

> > > rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In

> > fact

> > > you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend

> > > Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that

the

> > > forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such

attitude-

> > > throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the

> > > foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should

> > inform

> > > this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then

> > > scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology

> > will

> > > always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about

many

> > of

> > > its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call

> > it

> > > vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding

> > > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

> > much

> > > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where

the

> > > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

> > intutional

> > > afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the

> > underpinning

> > > of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a

> > > disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes

the

> > > hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of

> > the

> > > discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is

> > > always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That

is

> > my

> > > understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the

discipline

> > > are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience,

> > polite

> > > openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you

> > to

> > > bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps)

> > the

> > > group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the

> > > futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults

someone

> > > else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from

the

> > > good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his

> > part

> > > well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better

account

> > of

> > > himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > >

RK

> > > Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At

the

> > > outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me,

> > for

> > > the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants

> > > commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent

views

> > on

> > > Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen

> > Kaul

> > > alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite

unfortunate,

> > Sri

> > > Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational

> > thinking ,

> > > unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of

Jyotish.> >

> > > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of

> > different

> > > Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your

> > good

> > > self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal

> > > Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes

> > > place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you

are

> > a

> > > learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning,

> > > exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I

> > am a

> > > knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You

> > and

> > > I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on

most

> > > things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me

OR

> > > more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your

> > misplaced

> > > contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness

for

> > > learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing

> > it,

> > > but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate

> > with

> > > you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with

> > you. I

> > > was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and

> > > Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul

<a_krishen@>

> > > wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must

> > congratulate

> > > Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum

unmoderated!

> > It

> > > needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your

points:>

> > I

> > > have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with

me,

> > >

> > > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to

cherish

> > >

> > > any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I

> > am >

> > > no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we

say >

> > > that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and

have

> > >

> > > been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. >

> > > Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate

> > them

> > > > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish

is

> > >

> > > Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said "

and

> > so

> > > > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have

> > > uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If

> > you

> > > take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see

> > that

> > > I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In

> > other

> > > words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a

few

> > > years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I

> > becamse

> > > a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years!

> > > Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves,

> > whether

> > > sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the

> > existence

> > > of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana

or

> > > nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the

> > Yajur

> > > Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been

taken

> > > for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim

that

> > the

> > > Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may

> > perhaps

> > > be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of

the

> > > much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or

any

> > of

> > > the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that

> > except

> > > for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of

even

> > > the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani

etc.

> > > planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta

of

> > > Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that

> > > could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira

> > found

> > > that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta

taro

> > > savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest

> > Indian

> > > astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make

correct

> > > predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan

> > than

> > > anything else! Thus you can say > that " Varahamihira was the

> > greatest

> > > charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a

> > genetleman

> > > in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions

> > > about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was also

> > known

> > > as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century!

That

> > > much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> --- In

> > >

<%

40>,

> > " Bharat Hindu >

> > Astrology "

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > >

Forcing

> > a

> > > concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does

a>

> > >

> > > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept

that

> > >

> > > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference

> > > between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that

> > > Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By

> > giving

> > > useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering

any>

> > >

> > > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my

> > judgment

> > > about this person and his " lookalikes " > > > > Thanks and

> > Regards>

> > > > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >>

> >

> > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is

> > cute

> > > terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names

to

> > > those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > >

> > That

> > > is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to

force

> > > his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > >

<==> >

> > >

> > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >>

>

> > >

> > > ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > >

<==> >

> > >

> > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul >

> > > itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help

> > serve

> > > their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly

> > baseless

> > > contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement

and

> > > stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since

> > > Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a

> > > person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The

> > truth

> > > is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period,

> > and

> > > also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric

> > > origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology>

> >

> > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some

>

> > > use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > >

> > >

<%

40>

> > <%

> > >

> > > 40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology "

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > >

>> >

> > >

> > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I

>

> > > did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology

as

> > > Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to

those

> > > who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > >

> > force

> > > his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done>

> >

> > so

> > > in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an

excellent

> > > reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.>

> >

> > >>

> > > > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no

> > point>

> > > > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to

> > determine

> > > whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to

the

> > > culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> >

>

> > >>

> > > > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose.

> > Rather >

> > > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.>

> >

> > >>

> > > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07,

> > > Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear

> > > Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant

No

> > > offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the

meaning

> > > of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar,

since

> > I

> > > understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to " Parashara'

> > > is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can

> > never

> > > be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of

> > > several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding

> > > fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his

> > > sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the

presumption

> > > that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I

> > > realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> >

> >

> > >

> > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana >

Zodiac .If

> > I>

> > > > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

> > > back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some

> > > other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I

> > don't

> > > have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the

target

> > of

> > > someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list

> > but

> > > returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other

> > members

> > > who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a

> > disruptive

> > > influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will

progress

> > to

> > > new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All

the

> > > Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > >

>

> > >>

> > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> --

> > ---

> > > ----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what

you're

> > > looking for - Answers > > > > > -------------------------

---

> > ---

> > > --> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

> > > Answers>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ________

> > > > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live

Search

> > > Club.?

> > > > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Shri Ramdas Rao ji,

Namaskar!

Please go through Rashi5 document in the files section regarding

the description of Rashis by Varahamihira. Besides, Varahmihira is

an " astrologer " of 5th/6th century AD wheras Mesha etc. Rashis came

into Inida much before that time i.e. around 3rd/4th century BCE,

almost simultaneously with the Greek invasion.

Regards,

AKK

, HosabettuRamadas

Rao <ramadasrao wrote:

>

>

> Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> I reproduce here a Shloka from Varaha Mihira's Brihat Jataka

regarding Meshaadi Rashis Swarupas :

>

> matsyaughatI nrumithunaM sagadaM savINaM.

> caapInarOshrujaghano makarao mrugaasyaH..

> tauLisasasyadahanaa plavagaaca kanyaa.

> shEShaassvanaama sadrushaa ssvacaraascha sarve..

> I think as there are Sanskrit scholars in this list I need not

elaborate the above Shloka.But simply Varaha Mihiracharya starts

with Meena Rashi,then explains the swarupa of Kumbha Rashi,then

Mithuna Rashi,Dhanu Rashi,Makara Rashi ( Mrugaasya Makaro ), then

Tula Rashi,Kanya Rashi,then he says shEshaa means the the remaining

unnamed Rashis ie., Mesha,Vrishabha, Kataka, Simha and Vrischika

resemble their Swarupas.

> I hope this helps.

> With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> Ramadas Rao.

>

>

>

> : jyotirved: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

16:50:31 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat

(Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

>

>

>

>

> Shri Sreenadhji,I have read all the books by the famous

astrologer. His " Notable Horoscopes " is especialy a good for nothing

book since the data at one place does not agree with the data in the

same book at another place! In fact, he has given his own chart also

in that book but that as well is incorrect!Surprisingly, correct

predictions were ascribed to planetary positions of very old charts

without taking into account Delta Time corrections, which could be

from 10 minute to even 24 hours!! Almost ninety per cent charts are

wrong! Anybody can check them with computers today!There is no

personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains that if

someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data he must be

a charlatan!Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check

the " horoscopic particulars " -- at least mean planetary positions --

of Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1,

500 AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes,

whether you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are

considerable, whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya

Sidhanta, or even Aryabhati!Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the

statement that spashta-taro savitra because then today's astronomy

is wrong! If that is so, then we should stop preparing horscopes

from the latest astronomical parameters and go back into dark ages

of the Surya Sidhanta and so on!What is surprising all the more is

that till a century back, all the astrologers could make correct

predictions from the same Surya Sidhanta or Aryabhati or

AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or even Graha Laghava and they

fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for their accuracy! Now all of

them are vocferously voting for modern astronomy! You cannot have

the cake and eat it as well! If the earlier fundamental arguments

were wrong there could never have been correct predictions from

them. And if they were correct, we must stop taking recourse to

modern astronomy!Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes

programs, please rest assured that they have been checked and cross

checked and tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data

etc. etc. As on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even

with any new developments in modern astronomy, the results of the

past in around 10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary

by plus/minus more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or

planets. There is no possibility of any changes in the mean elements

of the sidhantas since they have been fixed by " Surya Bhagwa "

(acutally Maya the mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change

their stands now!Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether

you have gone through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are

available at HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara

also. I am afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not

have the permission of the author to upload them on any other

forums. Please go through those papers and see for yourself the real

state of affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy. It

is alright to go on repeating like a parrot " Vedeic

astrology " " vedic astrology " but even scholars like Dr. Vartak have

yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the

scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the

names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina,

Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum. We

must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such

useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha,

Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya Prajnyapti

is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki etc. planets

wheres all the Vedas are full of references to Krita,Rohini etc.

nakshatras time and again!The million dollar question is: Why does

the Mahbharata not list any of the Rashis, especially since it has

declared unequivocally that what is contained therein is contaiend

in other shaastras and what is not contained therein cannot be found

anywhere else!Regards,AKKRegards,AKK--- In

, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@>

wrote:>> Dear Ramdas Rao ji,> There is a fundamental thing to be

understood -> > With the rule of Muslims and British especially in

North India > ancient astrological books become almost unavailable.

Neither the > ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic

literature > (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were

considered holy or > religious in nature. The astrologers in North

india accumulated or > created what is left behind in memory as BPHS

and Jaimini Sutra. > (This is the root cause of various versions,

and indecipherability > and incompleteness of these text). Even

though good texts like Hora > Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were

available they come out of the > Manuscript libraries later only.

But style the system was changed > (due to the presence of BPHS and

JS) and even the correct use of > Divisions as told by sages was

lost. This is the genuine situation > that prompts an individual

like AKK to question the whole system. > Neither BV Raman nor

Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar > situation may be I too

might have done the same (there is all > possibility) > > Now the

situation is changing in the field of astrology with more > texts

coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm leaves > kept

by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able to >

keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts like " Adbhuta

> Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still >

preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are yet

to > come in print.> As of the heated discussion AKK started is

concerned now it is > already melted down and what is the use of

referring to it again? He > is already a friend and his contribution

valuable.> Love,> Sreenadh> > --- In

, HosabettuRamadas Rao >

<ramadasrao@> wrote:> >> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I joined this

list recently as I have been invited.But after > joining, I found a

lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say > one gentleman who

is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has > started arguing

about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology > and forcing the

members of the list to agree his theories and > idologies etc.This

is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic > Astrology " .The

getleman started giving his proof and others refusing > his theories

etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his chart, > we can

come to know why is denying the age old Vedic > Astrology.Astrology

is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose > about it.Let him

try to read the books written by Late Dr.B.V.Raman > who is called

as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic Astrology.There > is another

famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from > Kerala deals

about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query > etc.using 108

Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about > the

qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has learnt >

all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if he

> is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more

profound > otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.> > So

here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss some >

important issues in Vedic Astrology.> > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana

who is considered as the giver of > Jyotish knowledge to give good

intellect and Divine powers to such > people who have doubts in this

ancient Divine knowledge of Astrology.> > I will not reply to

anybody who starts accusing about the existence > of Vedic

Astrology.> > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,> > Ramadas

Rao.> > > > > > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun

2007 > 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear

Bharat > (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)> > > >

> > > > > > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post

really > attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology

(call it > Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word --

veda (as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words

of mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are

destined to hold intutional > afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from

mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and) > heard = Taught (handed over to

generations) through Guru-Sishya > Tradition. Now we are at a

juncture where everybody depends on > written word. Alas! Vedas

itself are attributed the authority on > being the authority

of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all other > knowledge that

is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute > example in my

mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi (shells) > for doing

astronomical and astrological calculations. It should have > been

the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in > Leelavati

as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do the > all

the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication) and >

complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells >

alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is always

> done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice

today) > using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or

stones for > doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is:

THERE IS NO > BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL -

But is the system > is alive with its full beauty and is practiced

and demonstrated > widely by all the efficient astrologers in

Kerala! Usually the expert > ones defeat even a person with

calculator in doing the same > calculation with their speed of

calculation and expertise! Should we > discard such valuable

knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in > any text, or telling

that till today no text mentioned the system and > their for it must

have came to existence recently?!! It is there well > in place for

ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for > mathematical

calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole > India) till

(and after!) the advent of written mathematical > calculation

methods popularized by western education. But if we go by > textual

reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not > amazing?!

The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over > to

generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when it >

is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the >

general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason -

it > is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper,

but easy > to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct

presence of > the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be

to save the > system - I am preparing a written document on the

same - and that is > possibly the FIRST document written on the

same, even though the > systems is well known (far better than me)

to thousands of > astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be

a very big > mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or

reject the > traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to

ear (taught > through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written

down, or for > which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji

will also make a > note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is

pressed to serve > the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive

curve of the > discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its

overall corpus) > escapes > the hard grip of mathematical

coordinates.<==I agree.==>> > The curve places much of the

discipline in the province of art. The > > spingboard for the art is

always there, nevertheless. <==I disagree > completely and the

reason for my disagreement, I have already > expressed in detail

in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the files > section of the

forum. The quote from that document, is given below-> <SNIP> " When

one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the > unnecessary

arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see > astrology in

its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue > whether

astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but >

Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would

be > the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive

and > negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is

science or > not, even without my intervention, one will know that

the result > would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and

astrology is > nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art.

The fault lies in > our view. Why should we try to cast something

into a particular > mould, or to limit subjects into some colored

boxes? Man wants to > classify everything. The truth would be always

beyond all the > classifications. It stays outside all the

classification attempts. > The fault lies fundamentally with the

fragmented human brain that > tries to classify everything, which

ultimately leads to erroneous > knowledge. This fundamental error

remains unsolved and we are trying > to limit the subjects in to

predefined boxes. It is the second > mistake. Will these repeated

errors lead us to correct knowledge and > view? " </SNIP>Let us forget

the minor friction between Madhu ji and > Kaul ji over Sanskrit and

English - and let us be back on our > discussions. By the way I

would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu > ji and RK ji etc) to

continue with the normal predictive astrological > discussion in

parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose > interest. The

theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At > the same time

let these other discussions on " Presence of astrology > in Vedas "

etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let > all who

are interested in the same join), since that is the subject > much

interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing in >

these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the " Discussions on

> Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies >

fully.Love,Sreenadh ,

> rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In

fact > you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by

Friend > Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad

that the > forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such

attitude-> throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in

the > foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should

inform > this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then

> scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology

will > always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about

many of > its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology

(call it > vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word --

veda (as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words

of mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are

destined to hold intutional > afflatus. However much astronomy is

pressed to serve the underpinning > of astrology, the predictive

curve of the discipline (a > disproportionately larger part of its

overall corpus) escapes the > hard grip of mathematical coordinates.

The curve places much of the > discipline in the province of art.

The spingboard for the art is > always there, nevertheless. > > But

we have to be careful. That is my > understanding.> > We in our

efforts at 'mastering' the discipline > are, in a way, at a

disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite > openness and

wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to > bear with

some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the > group

must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the > futility

of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone > else's

English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the > good

many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part >

well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of

> himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK

> Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the

> outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me,

for > the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of

pedants > commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your

resplendent views on > Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for

which , Sri Kishen Kaul > alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > >

It is quite unfortunate, Sri > Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in

the guise of rational thinking , > unwittingly is playing into the

hands of detractors of Jyotish.> > > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he

broach the entire issue of different > Zodiac and his views about

it, with me..> > As desired by your good > self and Sreenadh , I am

back in the list.> > With Warm Personal > Regards,> > Madhu Nair > >

> > Bharat Hindu Astrology > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri

Kaul> > A discussion takes > place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a

student of yours or you are a > learner and student of mine> 2. Both

of us are open to learning, > exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of

something that I seek or I am a > knower of something that you seek

and we ask the knower. > > You and > I do not satisfy any of the

criteria. You are pre-decided on most > things. You have not

answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR > more than 50 by

others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced > contentions,

especially when you have no attitude nor openness for > learning. >

> I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, > but, I

would rather not waste time with another useless debate with > you.

> > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I >

was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and >

Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@> >

wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must

congratulate > Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum

unmoderated! It > needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming

to your points:> I > have never asked anyone to agree with me or

even disagree with me, > > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody

is at liberty to cherish > > any system for being fleeced by

charlatans or fleecing others! I am > > no cop, please rest assured!

The problem arises only when we say > > that these gimmicks of

predictions are based on the Vedas and have > > been revealed by

Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. > > Naturally, anybody

making such claims will have to substantiate them > > with chapter

and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish is > >

Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said " and so

> > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have >

uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If you

> take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see

that > I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In

other > words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite

a few > years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I

becamse > a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several

years! > Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves,

whether > sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the

existence > of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone

sayana or > nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha

or the Yajur > Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we

have been taken > for a ride for > quite some time by such

charlatans as claim that the > Vedas talk of > nothing else but

predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps > be a " revelation " to you that

we do not find any > mention of the > much dreaded Mangal and Shani

either in any of the > Vedas or any of > the Vedic astronomical

works! I wonder whether you > know that except > for Maya the

mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even > the

Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc. >

planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of >

Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that >

could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira

found > that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta

taro > savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest

Indian > astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make

correct > predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a

charlatan than > anything else! Thus you can say >

that " Varahamihira was the greatest > charlatan of Indian astrology

of > all times " . There was a genetleman > in twentieth century also

who > could make coorect predictions > about " notable horoscopes "

with > incorrect data. He was also known > as the greatest Vedic

astrologer > of the twentieth century! That > much for Indian

astrology!> Dhanyavad.> >

, " Bharat Hindu > Astrology "

> <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing

a > concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does

a> > > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept

that > > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast

difference > between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge

knowing that > Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.>

> > > By giving > useless logic and wrong translations and without >

answering any> > > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I

reserve my judgment > about this person and his " lookalikes " > > >

> Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh

<sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his

belief system " => That is cute > terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He

uses sarcasm and calls names to > those who does not agree to > his>

> > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That > is not good - if he does so.> >

> ==>> > > > He is trying to force > his way around in proving all>

> > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > > > That is quite natural for a

scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> > > > ==>> > > > Another such a

character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > > > Are they two different

characters; or just another id of Kaul > > itself?> > >> > > ==>> >

> > You need not leave group and help serve > their purpose. Rather

> stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless > contentions.> > >

<==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and > stand by the

same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since > Kaul's

arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a > person

seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth > is

both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and >

also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric >

origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > > >

but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some > >

use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > > >

<%>

> 40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology " >

<hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> > >

> > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I >

> did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as

> Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those

> who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > >

force > his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has >

done> > > so > in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote

an excellent > reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did

not reply.> > > >> > > > > Another such a character is Mohan

Jyotishi. There is no point> > > > discussing> > > > things with

them. They are no one to determine > whether > Astrology is> > >

Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the > culture and shall call it

Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > > >> > > > > You need not

leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > > stay> > > and

enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > > >> > > > >

Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07, >

Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear >

Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No >

offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning >

of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I

> understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to " Parashara' >

is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can never

> be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of >

several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding >

fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his >

sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption >

that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I >

realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > > >

> know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If

I> > > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

> back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some >

other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I don't

> have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target

of > someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list

but > returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other

members > who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a

disruptive > influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list

will progress to > new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance>

> > > > All the > Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu>

> > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > -----> ----------------------------> Here's a new

way to find what you're > looking for - Answers > > > > > ----

---------------------------> --> Here's a new way to find what

you're looking for - > Answers> > > > > > >

________> > Play

free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search > Club.?

> > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink> >>

>

>

> _______________

> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's

FREE!

> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste SreenadhI think you should be saying this to Sri Kaul and not to me. He is calling people parrots. Please check facts before you start off. As you already know I am not discussing anything with this person, but if sarcasm and name calling of fellow and respectable astrologers does continue, then, it would not be prudent to sit aside and watch. Thanks and RegardsBharatOn 6/19/07, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:

 

 

 

 

Dear Bharat ji,

Please avoid calling names!

==>

> Like I said earlier, Sri Kaul tends to get personal and use

> borderline abusive words to aggrieve most readers.

<==

If he does or did so that does not become a license or model to do

the same!

 

==>

> If he is arrogantly and ignorantly " convinced " about his ideas,

> let him practice them. Let him not abuse others.

<==

That much I can agree.

 

But the contributions of everybody is valid - It is those who with a

fire inside (they usually used to get in fight with others as well -

near by examples - Chandrahari, AKK, Patrizia, PVR - in various

forms) who has some thing special to contribute as well. So THEY ARE

SPECIAL (even after all possible fights).

 

But for sure we will fight with them – and that is how we extract the

honey, like honey bees – collecting honey from the flowers. But

as seekers of knowledge, what we extract is knowledge and info to be

digested in a way that tallies with the unique taste of us (every

individual).

 

Note: However the flower smells, whether it be beautiful or ugly, if

honey is there bees are sure to come.

 

Love,

Sreenadh

 

, " Bharat Hindu

Astrology " <hinduastrology wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Sreenadh

>

> I wonder who the parrot is - one who keeps saying " Not vedic

astrology "

> " not vedic astrology " or one who simply knows what Vedic Astrology

is about.

>

>

> Vedas are considered by 3000 to 5000 years old by many. Are we not

Vedic,

> despite not living in that age? The fact is Vedic is a way of life.

A vedic

> person knows how to treat Astrology and therefore, it is Vedic

Astrology. He

> knows the science, use and limitation of the subject. He does not

need a

> " parrot " to fill onself with wrong beliefs.

>

> Like I said earlier, Sri Kaul tends to get personal and use

borderline

> abusive words to aggrieve most readers. His recent email is a fine

example

> of his modus operandi. Only ask questions, do not offer any

explanations. He

> has not responded to any questions that you and I asked him in last

one and

> half years.

>

> If he is arrogantly and ignorantly " convinced " about his ideas,

let him

> practice them. Let him not abuse others. Perhaps it is time to tell

the

> parrot to fly and not try to sound like a koel.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

>

>

> On 6/18/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote:

> >

> > Shri Sreenadhji,

> > I have read all the books by the famous astrologer. His " Notable

> > Horoscopes " is especialy a good for nothing book since the data at

> > one place does not agree with the data in the same book at another

> > place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book but

> > that as well is incorrect!

> > Surprisingly, correct predictions were ascribed to planetary

> > positions of very old charts without taking into account Delta

Time

> > corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even 24 hours!!

> > Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check them

> > with computers today!

> >

> > There is no personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains

> > that if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data

he

> > must be a charlatan!

> > Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check the " horoscopic

> > particulars " -- at least mean planetary positions -- of

> > Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1, 500

> > AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes, whether

> > you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are considerable,

> > whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya Sidhanta, or

> > even Aryabhati!

> >

> > Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the statement that spashta-taro

> > savitra because then today's astronomy is wrong! If that is so,

> > then we should stop preparing horscopes from the latest

astronomical

> > parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya Sidhanta and so

> > on!

> >

> > What is surprising all the more is that till a century back, all

the

> > astrologers could make correct predictions from the same Surya

> > Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or

> > even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for

> > their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for modern

> > astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the

> > earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have

been

> > correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must

> > stop taking recourse to modern astronomy!

> >

> > Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes programs, please

> > rest assured that they have been checked and cross checked and

> > tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data etc. etc. As

> > on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even with any new

> > developments in modern astronomy, the results of the past in

around

> > 10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary by plus/minus

> > more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or planets. There is

> > no possibility of any changes in the mean elements of the

sidhantas

> > since they have been fixed by " Surya Bhagwa " (acutally Maya the

> > mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change their stands

now!

> >

> > Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether you have gone

> > through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are available at

> > HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara also. I am

> > afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not have the

> > permission of the author to upload them on any other forums.

Please

> > go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of

> > affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy.

> >

> > It is alright to go on repeating like a parrot " Vedeic

> > astrology " " vedic astrology " but even scholars like Dr. Vartak

have

> > yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the

> > scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the

> > names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina,

> > Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum.

> > We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such

> > useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha,

> > Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya

> > Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki

etc.

> > planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to

Krita,Rohini

> > etc. nakshatras time and again!

> >

> > The million dollar question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list

any

> > of the Rashis, especially since it has declared unequivocally that

> > what is contained therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what

> > is not contained therein cannot be found anywhere else!

> > Regards,

> > AKK

> >

> > Regards,

> > AKK

> >

<%

40>,

> > " Sreenadh "

> >

> > <sreesog@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Ramdas Rao ji,

> > > There is a fundamental thing to be understood -

> > >

> > > With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India

> > > ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither

the

> > > ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature

> > > (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered

holy

> > or

> > > religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated

or

> > > created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra.

> > > (This is the root cause of various versions, and

indecipherability

> > > and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like

> > Hora

> > > Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the

> > > Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was

changed

> > > (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of

> > > Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine

situation

> > > that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole

system.

> > > Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar

> > > situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all

> > > possibility)

> > >

> > > Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with

more

> > > texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm

leaves

> > > kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able

> > to

> > > keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts

> > like " Adbhuta

> > > Sagara " (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still

> > > preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are

yet

> > to

> > > come in print.

> > > As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is

> > > already melted down and what is the use of referring to it

again?

> > He

> > > is already a friend and his contribution valuable.

> > > Love,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > >

<%

40>,

> > HosabettuRamadas

> > Rao

> > > <ramadasrao@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,

> > > > I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after

> > > joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can

say

> > > one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has

> > > started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic

Astrology

> > > and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and

> > > idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic

> > > Astrology " .The getleman started giving his proof and others

> > refusing

> > > his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his

> > chart,

> > > we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic

> > > Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked

loose

> > > about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late

> > Dr.B.V.Raman

> > > who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic

> > Astrology.There

> > > is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from

> > > Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or

Query

> > > etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained

about

> > > the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has

> > learnt

> > > all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but

if

> > he

> > > is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more

> > profound

> > > otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.

> > > > So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss

> > some

> > > important issues in Vedic Astrology.

> > > > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of

> > > Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to

such

> > > people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of

> > Astrology.

> > > > I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the

> > existence

> > > of Vedic Astrology.

> > > > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

> > > > Ramadas Rao.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun 2007

> > > 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear

Bharat

> > > (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really

> > > attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology

(call

> > it

> > > Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding

> > > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

> > much

> > > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where

the

> > > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

> > intutional

> > > afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told

and)

> > > heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya

> > > Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on

> > > written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on

> > > being the authority of " WRITTEN TEXT " !! What will happen to all

> > other

> > > knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute

> > > example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi

> > (shells)

> > > for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should

> > have

> > > been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in

> > > Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts

do

> > the

> > > all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication)

> > and

> > > complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells

> > > alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is

> > always

> > > done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice

> > today)

> > > using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or

stones

> > for

> > > doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS

NO

> > > BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the

> > system

> > > is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated

> > > widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the

> > expert

> > > ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same

> > > calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise!

Should

> > we

> > > discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned

> > in

> > > any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the

system

> > and

> > > their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there

> > well

> > > in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for

> > > mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly

whole

> > > India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical

> > > calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we

go

> > by

> > > textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not

> > > amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed

> > over

> > > to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara,

when

> > it

> > > is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been

the

> > > general attitude. Further there should have been one more

reason -

> > it

> > > is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but

> > easy

> > > to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence

> > of

> > > the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the

> > > system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and

that

> > is

> > > possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the

> > > systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of

> > > astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big

> > > mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the

> > > traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear

> > (taught

> > > through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for

> > > which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also

make

> > a

> > > note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to

serve

> > > the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the

> > > discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall

> > corpus)

> > > escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I

> > agree.==>>

> > > The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art.

> > The >

> > > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I

> > disagree

> > > completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already

> > > expressed in detail in " Base of Astrology.doc " present in the

> > files

> > > section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given

below-

> > > <SNIP> " When one understands this basic rationale of astrology,

the

> > > unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see

> > > astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we

argue

> > > whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but

> > > Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what

would

> > be

> > > the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive

and

> > > negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science

or

> > > not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result

> > > would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology

is

> > > nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault

lies

> > in

> > > our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular

> > > mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants

to

> > > classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the

> > > classifications. It stays outside all the classification

attempts.

> > > The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain

that

> > > tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to

erroneous

> > > knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are

> > trying

> > > to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second

> > > mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge

> > and

> > > view? " </SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji

and

> > > Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our

> > > discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji,

> > Madhu

> > > ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive

> > astrological

> > > discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose

> > > interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to

all.At

> > > the same time let these other discussions on " Presence of

> > astrology

> > > in Vedas " etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and

let

> > > all who are interested in the same join), since that is the

> > subject

> > > much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing

> > in

> > > these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on

the " Discussions

> > on

> > > Predictive astrological techniques " or Case studies

> > > fully.Love,Sreenadh--- In

> > <%

40>,

> >

> > > rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In

> > fact

> > > you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend

> > > Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that

the

> > > forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such

attitude-

> > > throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the

> > > foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should

> > inform

> > > this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then

> > > scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology

> > will

> > > always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about

many

> > of

> > > its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call

> > it

> > > vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my

understanding

> > > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also

> > much

> > > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where

the

> > > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold

> > intutional

> > > afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the

> > underpinning

> > > of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a

> > > disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes

the

> > > hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of

> > the

> > > discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is

> > > always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That

is

> > my

> > > understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the

discipline

> > > are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience,

> > polite

> > > openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you

> > to

> > > bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps)

> > the

> > > group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the

> > > futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults

someone

> > > else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from

the

> > > good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his

> > part

> > > well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better

account

> > of

> > > himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > >

RK

> > > Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At

the

> > > outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me,

> > for

> > > the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants

> > > commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent

views

> > on

> > > Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen

> > Kaul

> > > alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite

unfortunate,

> > Sri

> > > Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational

> > thinking ,

> > > unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of

Jyotish.> >

> > > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of

> > different

> > > Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your

> > good

> > > self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal

> > > Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes

> > > place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you

are

> > a

> > > learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning,

> > > exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I

> > am a

> > > knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You

> > and

> > > I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on

most

> > > things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me

OR

> > > more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your

> > misplaced

> > > contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness

for

> > > learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing

> > it,

> > > but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate

> > with

> > > you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with

> > you. I

> > > was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and

> > > Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul

<a_krishen@>

> > > wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must

> > congratulate

> > > Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum

unmoderated!

> > It

> > > needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your

points:>

> > I

> > > have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with

me,

> > >

> > > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to

cherish

> > >

> > > any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I

> > am >

> > > no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we

say >

> > > that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and

have

> > >

> > > been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. >

> > > Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate

> > them

> > > > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating " Jyotish

is

> > >

> > > Vedic " , " Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said "

and

> > so

> > > > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have

> > > uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If

> > you

> > > take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see

> > that

> > > I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In

> > other

> > > words, I was a more > stauch " nirayana astrologer " for quite a

few

> > > years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I

> > becamse

> > > a firm believer > in " Sayana Vedic astrology " for several years!

> > > Since nobody, > including the " Vedic jyotishis " themselves,

> > whether

> > > sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the

> > existence

> > > of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana

or

> > > nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the

> > Yajur

> > > Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been

taken

> > > for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim

that

> > the

> > > Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may

> > perhaps

> > > be a " revelation " to you that we do not find any > mention of

the

> > > much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or

any

> > of

> > > the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that

> > except

> > > for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of

even

> > > the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani

etc.

> > > planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta

of

> > > Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that

> > > could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira

> > found

> > > that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta

taro

> > > savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest

> > Indian

> > > astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make

correct

> > > predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan

> > than

> > > anything else! Thus you can say > that " Varahamihira was the

> > greatest

> > > charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times " . There was a

> > genetleman

> > > in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions

> > > about " notable horoscopes " with > incorrect data. He was also

> > known

> > > as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century!

That

> > > much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> --- In

> > >

<%

40>,

> > " Bharat Hindu >

> > Astrology "

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > >

Forcing

> > a

> > > concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does

a>

> > >

> > > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept

that

> > >

> > > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference

> > > between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that

> > > Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By

> > giving

> > > useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering

any>

> > >

> > > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my

> > judgment

> > > about this person and his " lookalikes " > > > > Thanks and

> > Regards>

> > > > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >>

> >

> > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > " Sri Kaul and his belief system " => That is

> > cute

> > > terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names

to

> > > those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > >

> > That

> > > is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to

force

> > > his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > >

<==> >

> > >

> > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >>

>

> > >

> > > ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > >

<==> >

> > >

> > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul >

> > > itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help

> > serve

> > > their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly

> > baseless

> > > contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement

and

> > > stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since

> > > Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a

> > > person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The

> > truth

> > > is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period,

> > and

> > > also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric

> > > origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology>

> >

> > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some

>

> > > use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > >

> > >

<%

40>

> > <%

> > >

> > > 40>, > > > " Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology "

> > > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > >

>> >

> > >

> > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I

>

> > > did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology

as

> > > Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to

those

> > > who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > >

> > force

> > > his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done>

> >

> > so

> > > in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an

excellent

> > > reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.>

> >

> > >>

> > > > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no

> > point>

> > > > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to

> > determine

> > > whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to

the

> > > culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> >

>

> > >>

> > > > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose.

> > Rather >

> > > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.>

> >

> > >>

> > > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07,

> > > Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear

> > > Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant

No

> > > offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the

meaning

> > > of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar,

since

> > I

> > > understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to " Parashara'

> > > is " The Liberated one " , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can

> > never

> > > be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of

> > > several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding

> > > fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his

> > > sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the

presumption

> > > that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I

> > > realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> >

> >

> > >

> > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana >

Zodiac .If

> > I>

> > > > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years

> > > back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some

> > > other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I

> > don't

> > > have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the

target

> > of

> > > someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list

> > but

> > > returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other

> > members

> > > who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a

> > disruptive

> > > influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will

progress

> > to

> > > new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All

the

> > > Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > >

>

> > >>

> > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> --

> > ---

> > > ----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what

you're

> > > looking for - Answers > > > > > -------------------------

---

> > ---

> > > --> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for -

> > > Answers>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ________

> > > > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live

Search

> > > Club.?

> > > > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sir,

This is just an example I reproduced to show our ancient scholars whom we know has given the Swarupas of Grahas.Similarly as you are a Scholar in all the 4 Vedas,it will not be difficult for you to search in the Vedas also about Astrology during Vedic Times.I have the book BPHS translated in to Kannada language and in that book, the respected Author writes that he has got this big volume from Dr.Pandit Devachandra Jha.So in the Shlokas 7 to 9 ie., " RASHI CHAKRASYA YO.......MAHEETALE ( SHLOKA 7),TADARKAMITA BHAAGASTU ..... SURYAADI SAMJNAKAH ( SHOLKA 8 ) AND LAGNA BHAVATI ....... DADAATI VAIGRAHAAH ( SHLOKA 9 ) ",our great sage Parashara has tried to explain about Meshadi Rashis in order to avoid confusion when using Drik Ganita method. Please have a look in Rig Veda Ashtaka 2,Adhyaya 3,Anuvaka 32,Sukta 164,Mantra 5 which tells about the Dwadasha Rashis - " DWAADASHAARAM NAHI TAJJAKAAYA VARVARTA CAKRAM..... ".

I hope you can go very deep into this Vedic concept and to avoid confusion ,Maharshi has told us to look from Meshadi Rashis.

With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,

Ramadas Rao.

 

 

From: jyotirvedDate: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:19:06 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)

 

 

 

Shri Ramdas Rao ji,Namaskar!Please go through Rashi5 document in the files section regarding the description of Rashis by Varahamihira. Besides, Varahmihira is an "astrologer" of 5th/6th century AD wheras Mesha etc. Rashis came into Inida much before that time i.e. around 3rd/4th century BCE, almost simultaneously with the Greek invasion.Regards,AKK , HosabettuRamadas Rao <ramadasrao wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> I reproduce here a Shloka from Varaha Mihira's Brihat Jataka regarding Meshaadi Rashis Swarupas :> > matsyaughatI nrumithunaM sagadaM savINaM.> caapInarOshrujaghano makarao mrugaasyaH..> tauLisasasyadahanaa plavagaaca kanyaa.> shEShaassvanaama sadrushaa ssvacaraascha sarve..> I think as there are Sanskrit scholars in this list I need not elaborate the above Shloka.But simply Varaha Mihiracharya starts with Meena Rashi,then explains the swarupa of Kumbha Rashi,then Mithuna Rashi,Dhanu Rashi,Makara Rashi ( Mrugaasya Makaro ), then Tula Rashi,Kanya Rashi,then he says shEshaa means the the remaining unnamed Rashis ie., Mesha,Vrishabha, Kataka, Simha and Vrischika resemble their Swarupas.> I hope this helps.> With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,> Ramadas Rao.> > > > : jyotirved: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:50:31 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)> > > > > Shri Sreenadhji,I have read all the books by the famous astrologer. His "Notable Horoscopes" is especialy a good for nothing book since the data at one place does not agree with the data in the same book at another place! In fact, he has given his own chart also in that book but that as well is incorrect!Surprisingly, correct predictions were ascribed to planetary positions of very old charts without taking into account Delta Time corrections, which could be from 10 minute to even 24 hours!! Almost ninety per cent charts are wrong! Anybody can check them with computers today!There is no personal vendetta about anybody! But the fact remains that if someone can make correct predictions from incorrect data he must be a charlatan!Now that you have Ganesh programs you can check the "horoscopic particulars" -- at least mean planetary positions -- of Varahamihira -- supposing he was born at 12 noon on January 1, 500 AD or say 450 AD. The differences in planetary longitudes, whether you take them as sayana or Lahiri nirayana, are considerable, whether you take old Surya Sidhanta or current Surya Sidhanta, or even Aryabhati!Well, I am sorry I cannot accept the statement that spashta-taro savitra because then today's astronomy is wrong! If that is so, then we should stop preparing horscopes from the latest astronomical parameters and go back into dark ages of the Surya Sidhanta and so on!What is surprising all the more is that till a century back, all the astrologers could make correct predictions from the same Surya Sidhanta or Aryabhati or AryaSidahnta or Brahmasphuta Sidhanta or even Graha Laghava and they fought like Kilkenny cats to vouch for their accuracy! Now all of them are vocferously voting for modern astronomy! You cannot have the cake and eat it as well! If the earlier fundamental arguments were wrong there could never have been correct predictions from them. And if they were correct, we must stop taking recourse to modern astronomy!Regarding the parameters used in Ganesh and Mahes programs, please rest assured that they have been checked and cross checked and tallied hudnreds of times with all the available data etc. etc. As on date, Mahesh is the most accurate program and even with any new developments in modern astronomy, the results of the past in around 10000 BC or in future around 10000 AD will not vary by plus/minus more than about 10 arcminutes for sun or moon or planets. There is no possibility of any changes in the mean elements of the sidhantas since they have been fixed by "Surya Bhagwa" (acutally Maya the mlechha!) and so on! They are not going to change their stands now!Regarding Parshara Sidhanta etc., I wonder whether you have gone through the papers of Dr. R. N. Iyengar, which are available at HinduCalendar forum! He has referred to Adbhuta Sagara also. I am afraid I cannot upload them on this forum since I do not have the permission of the author to upload them on any other forums. Please go through those papers and see for yourself the real state of affair in ancient India vis-a-vis planetary astronomy. It is alright to go on repeating like a parrot "Vedeic astrologyvedic astrology" but even scholars like Dr. Vartak have yet to find Makara Rashi in any of the Vedas! Can any of the scholars of this forum give me the exact mantra which gives the names of rashis in any order, whether Mesha, Vrisha etc. or Mina, Kumbha etc.? It is a challenge to all the scholars of this forum. We must not forget that the Vedanga Jyotisha is silent about such useless parameters, so is the Yajur Jyotisha, Atharva Jytoisha, Pitamaha Sidhanta, Vasishtha Sidhata etc. etc. Even Surya Prajnyapti is siletn about Mesha etc. Rashis or Mangal, Shanki etc. planets wheres all the Vedas are full of references to Krita,Rohini etc. nakshatras time and again!The million dollar question is: Why does the Mahbharata not list any of the Rashis, especially since it has declared unequivocally that what is contained therein is contaiend in other shaastras and what is not contained therein cannot be found anywhere else!Regards,AKKRegards,AKK , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@> wrote:>> Dear Ramdas Rao ji,> There is a fundamental thing to be understood -> > With the rule of Muslims and British especially in North India > ancient astrological books become almost unavailable. Neither the > ancient horas nor the continuity was kept. The Vedic literature > (Vedas, Upanishads etc) survived because they were considered holy or > religious in nature. The astrologers in North india accumulated or > created what is left behind in memory as BPHS and Jaimini Sutra. > (This is the root cause of various versions, and indecipherability > and incompleteness of these text). Even though good texts like Hora > Ratna, Muhurtha Chintamani were available they come out of the > Manuscript libraries later only. But style the system was changed > (due to the presence of BPHS and JS) and even the correct use of > Divisions as told by sages was lost. This is the genuine situation > that prompts an individual like AKK to question the whole system. > Neither BV Raman nor Prasnamarga can cure this. If in similar > situation may be I too might have done the same (there is all > possibility) > > Now the situation is changing in the field of astrology with more > texts coming out of the manuscript libraries, or from palm leaves > kept by traditions or from south India (where astrology was able to > keep its continuity). There are hindered of good texts like "Adbhuta > Sagara" (which contains collection of Rishi hora slokas) still > preserved by the Manuscript libraries in North India which are yet to > come in print.> As of the heated discussion AKK started is concerned now it is > already melted down and what is the use of referring to it again? He > is already a friend and his contribution valuable.> Love,> Sreenadh> > , HosabettuRamadas Rao > <ramadasrao@> wrote:> >> > > > Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I joined this list recently as I have been invited.But after > joining, I found a lot of mails of abusing each other or I can say > one gentleman who is so completely versed with our Vedas etc.has > started arguing about the existence of the age old Vedic Astrology > and forcing the members of the list to agree his theories and > idologies etc.This is not all a discussion about " Ancient Vedic > Astrology ".The getleman started giving his proof and others refusing > his theories etc.Here the main thing is that if we analyse his chart, > we can come to know why is denying the age old Vedic > Astrology.Astrology is a Divine Science and not to be talked loose > about it.Let him try to read the books written by Late Dr.B.V.Raman > who is called as Adhunika Varaha Mihira about Vedic Astrology.There > is another famous tratise on Prashna called Prashna Margam from > Kerala deals about the various methods regarding Prashna or Query > etc.using 108 Cowries.In that book, the author has explained about > the qualifications of an Astrologer and many more.One who has learnt > all the 4 Vedas is definitely ahighly knowledgeable person but if he > is following the Vedas,then only those knowledge become more profound > otherwise it is like SUN enclosed with dark clouds.> > So here I am not going to waste time of anybody rather discuss some > important issues in Vedic Astrology.> > I Pray Lord Surya Narayana who is considered as the giver of > Jyotish knowledge to give good intellect and Divine powers to such > people who have doubts in this ancient Divine knowledge of Astrology.> > I will not reply to anybody who starts accusing about the existence > of Vedic Astrology.> > With Shri Hari Vaayu Guru Naama Smarana,> > Ramadas Rao.> > > > > > @: sreesog@: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 > 05:27:00 +0000 Re: Dear Bharat > (Dear Nair Saab: Our horizon clean, we unblinkered)> > > > > > > > > > Dear RK ji,Some handsome points expressed by your post really > attracts my attention. ==>For a discipline like astrology (call it > Vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional > afflatus.<==The Vedas flowed from mouth to ear. Sruti = (told and) > heard = Taught (handed over to generations) through Guru-Sishya > Tradition. Now we are at a juncture where everybody depends on > written word. Alas! Vedas itself are attributed the authority on > being the authority of "WRITTEN TEXT"!! What will happen to all other > knowledge that is Sruti but not yet written down?! I have a cute > example in my mind - In South India astrologers use Kavadi (shells) > for doing astronomical and astrological calculations. It should have > been the same throughout India since the same is mentioned in > Leelavati as Pati Ganitam. They system is cute and the experts do the > all the primary (addition, substation, division, multiplication) and > complex (Astronomical) mathematics with the aid of these shells > alone, and their method differ. For example multiplication is always > done from left to right (Not from right to left as we practice today) > using shells. (It does not matter whether we use shells or stones for > doing the same - it is immaterial). Now the point is: THERE IS NO > BOOK WRITTEN YET TO DESCRIBE THE SYSTEM IN DETAIL - But is the system > is alive with its full beauty and is practiced and demonstrated > widely by all the efficient astrologers in Kerala! Usually the expert > ones defeat even a person with calculator in doing the same > calculation with their speed of calculation and expertise! Should we > discard such valuable knowledge telling that it is not mentioned in > any text, or telling that till today no text mentioned the system and > their for it must have came to existence recently?!! It is there well > in place for ages - and it was the ONLY system that was used for > mathematical calculation in the history of Kerala (possibly whole > India) till (and after!) the advent of written mathematical > calculation methods popularized by western education. But if we go by > textual reference we may find NONE! Is it not absurd?! Is it not > amazing?! The truth is when everybody knew it, when it is handed over > to generations through mouth to ear by Guru-Sishya Parampara, when it > is Sruti, why should it be written down? That should have been the > general attitude. Further there should have been one more reason - it > is very difficult to notate and explain the system on paper, but easy > to teach and learn by teaching and doing, in the direct presence of > the teacher, the direct example. OK. What ever it be to save the > system - I am preparing a written document on the same - and that is > possibly the FIRST document written on the same, even though the > systems is well known (far better than me) to thousands of > astrologers in Kerala! So the point is it would be a very big > mistake, (a very very foolish blunder) to ignore or reject the > traditional knowledge that is handed over from mouth to ear (taught > through Guru-Sishya Parampara), but not yet written down, or for > which no written proof is available. I hope Kaul ji will also make a > note of this point.==>> However much astronomy is pressed to serve > the underpinning of > astrology, the predictive curve of the > discipline > (a disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) > escapes > the hard grip of mathematical coordinates.<==I agree.==>> > The curve places much of the discipline in the province of art. The > > spingboard for the art is always there, nevertheless. <==I disagree > completely and the reason for my disagreement, I have already > expressed in detail in "Base of Astrology.doc" present in the files > section of the forum. The quote from that document, is given below-> <SNIP>"When one understands this basic rationale of astrology, the > unnecessary arguments and debates will stop. We must try to see > astrology in its true theoretical foundation. Why should we argue > whether astrology is an art or science? Astrology is nothing but > Astrology. If somebody asks whether bat is bird or not, what would be > the answer? It will only create an unending array of positive and > negative arguments. If somebody asks whether history is science or > not, even without my intervention, one will know that the result > would be the same. Bat is bat, history is history and astrology is > nothing but astrology, neither science nor an art. The fault lies in > our view. Why should we try to cast something into a particular > mould, or to limit subjects into some colored boxes? Man wants to > classify everything. The truth would be always beyond all the > classifications. It stays outside all the classification attempts. > The fault lies fundamentally with the fragmented human brain that > tries to classify everything, which ultimately leads to erroneous > knowledge. This fundamental error remains unsolved and we are trying > to limit the subjects in to predefined boxes. It is the second > mistake. Will these repeated errors lead us to correct knowledge and > view?"</SNIP>Let us forget the minor friction between Madhu ji and > Kaul ji over Sanskrit and English - and let us be back on our > discussions. By the way I would urge all (especially Pandit ji, Madhu > ji and RK ji etc) to continue with the normal predictive astrological > discussion in parallel threads - otherwise somebody many lose > interest. The theoretical discussion are not of interest to all.At > the same time let these other discussions on "Presence of astrology > in Vedas" etc also go in parallel, I will handle the same (and let > all who are interested in the same join), since that is the subject > much interest to me as well. But if my energy is totally flowing in > these lines, I may not be able to concentrate on the "Discussions on > Predictive astrological techniques" or Case studies > fully.Love,Sreenadh , > rk dash <arkaydash@> wrote:>> Dear Nair Saab,> Welcome back. In fact > you never went, your going away having been foreclosed by Friend > Shreenadh. > > I read up the posts and counter-posts. Sad that the > forum sees (sometimes, fortunately only sometimes) such attitude-> throwing. We seem unable to keep the subject proper in the > foreground. Clarity, consistency and quality insights should inform > this foreground. All else should be secondary. > > And then > scholarship. Indeed.> > Debates about the moorings of astrology will > always be fraught with variances and dissents as indeed about many of > its tenets and assumptions. For a discipline like astology (call it > vedic, Indian or Oriental), we haven't, as far as my understanding > goes, a cast-iron bedrock of the Written Word -- veda (as also much > of post-vedic expositions) being shruti, words of mouth; where the > words are written down, the contents are destined to hold intutional > afflatus. However much astronomy is pressed to serve the underpinning > of astrology, the predictive curve of the discipline (a > disproportionately larger part of its overall corpus) escapes the > hard grip of mathematical coordinates. The curve places much of the > discipline in the province of art. The spingboard for the art is > always there, nevertheless. > > But we have to be careful. That is my > understanding.> > We in our efforts at 'mastering' the discipline > are, in a way, at a disadvantage. Hence the need for patience, polite > openness and wise humility can't be overemphasised. I'd urge you to > bear with some of us. Your desire to leave (in distress perhaps) the > group must have served its purpose -- that of highlighting the > futility of pettiness (Yes, I would like to see who faults someone > else's English and thereby deludes himslef he can detract from the > good many of us bring to the forum.).> > Sreenadh has acted his part > well. I expected Mr 'Bharat' to have given an even better account of > himself.> > Let's make the most of our forum togetherness. > > RK > Dash> > > Madhu Nair <balagurusurya@> wrote:> Dear Bharat,> At the > outset , Thanks a lot , for your support and solidarity with me, for > the cause of Nirayana Zodiac and to thwart the effort of pedants > commited to denigrate it.> > I take note of your resplendent views on > Nirayana Zodiac duly quoting Holy Vedas , for which , Sri Kishen Kaul > alias Mohan Jyotishi ,has No answer. > > It is quite unfortunate, Sri > Kaul, a Kashmiri Pandit by birth, in the guise of rational thinking , > unwittingly is playing into the hands of detractors of Jyotish.> > > Today , Sreenadh rang up and he broach the entire issue of different > Zodiac and his views about it, with me..> > As desired by your good > self and Sreenadh , I am back in the list.> > With Warm Personal > Regards,> > Madhu Nair > > > > Bharat Hindu Astrology > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> Namaste Sri Kaul> > A discussion takes > place when:> > 1. I am a learner and a student of yours or you are a > learner and student of mine> 2. Both of us are open to learning, > exploring.> 3. If you are a knower of something that I seek or I am a > knower of something that you seek and we ask the knower. > > You and > I do not satisfy any of the criteria. You are pre-decided on most > things. You have not answered close to 20 queries put up by me OR > more than 50 by others. You cannot expect us to answer your misplaced > contentions, especially when you have no attitude nor openness for > learning. > > I am not busy for seeking knowledge or for sharing it, > but, I would rather not waste time with another useless debate with > you. > > Infact, if you notice, I was not even discussing with you. I > was discussing with Sri Madhu and Sri Sreenadh. > > Thanks and > Regards> Bharat> > > > On 6/16/07, Avtar Krishen Kaul <a_krishen@> > wrote: Shri Bharat ji,> Namaskar!> > First of all I must congratulate > Shri Sreemadhji for keeping the > posts on this forum unmoderated! It > needs really an open mind to do > so!> Now coming to your points:> I > have never asked anyone to agree with me or even disagree with me, > > for that matter. In a democracy, anybody is at liberty to cherish > > any system for being fleeced by charlatans or fleecing others! I am > > no cop, please rest assured! The problem arises only when we say > > that these gimmicks of predictions are based on the Vedas and have > > been revealed by Rishis like Prashara and Brighu etc. etc. > > Naturally, anybody making such claims will have to substantiate them > > with chapter and verse and not just go on repeating "Jyotish is > > Vedic", "Jyotish is based on what Maharshi Prashara has said" and so > > on and so forth! > Kindly go through all the files that I have > uploaded on this forum > and do give a point by point reply. If you > take time out to peruse > them patiently (Koshur6), you will see that > I was sailing in the > same boat as you are sailing today! In other > words, I was a more > stauch "nirayana astrologer" for quite a few > years than nyybody > else! Later on, with equal vehemence, I becamse > a firm believer > in "Sayana Vedic astrology" for several years! > Since nobody, > including the "Vedic jyotishis" themselves, whether > sayana or > nirayana, has as yet been able to pinpoint the existence > of Mesha, > Vrisha etc. astrological rashis, leave alone sayana or > nirayana, in > any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or the Yajur > Jyotisha or > even Atharva Jyotisha, obviously, we have been taken > for a ride for > quite some time by such charlatans as claim that the > Vedas talk of > nothing else but predictive gimmicks!> It may perhaps > be a "revelation" to you that we do not find any > mention of the > much dreaded Mangal and Shani either in any of the > Vedas or any of > the Vedic astronomical works! I wonder whether you > know that except > for Maya the mlechha's Surya Sidhanta, no other > sidhanta of even > the Panchasidhantika refers to any Rashis or > Mangal, Shani etc. > planets even by mistake! To crown it all, the > Surya Sidhanta of > Panchasidhantika is the most inaccurate > astronomical work that > could have been produced by anybody! > Ironically, Varahamihira found > that very Surya Sidhanta to be the > most accurate - spashta taro > savitrah! Varahamhira is supposed to > have been the greatest Indian > astrologer of all times! Naturally, > if someone can make correct > predictions from incorrect data, he > certainly is a charlatan than > anything else! Thus you can say > that "Varahamihira was the greatest > charlatan of Indian astrology of > all times". There was a genetleman > in twentieth century also who > could make coorect predictions > about "notable horoscopes" with > incorrect data. He was also known > as the greatest Vedic astrologer > of the twentieth century! That > much for Indian astrology!> Dhanyavad.> > , "Bharat Hindu > Astrology" > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sri Sreenadh> > > > Forcing a > concept down the throat is not the way of a Scholar. Nor > does a> > > Scholar is one who has such a closed mind, who cannot accept that > > views> > other than his own can exist. There a vast difference > between a > true scholar> > who pursues knowledge knowing that > Ignorance is so vast that he > better be> > humble.> > > > By giving > useless logic and wrong translations and without > answering any> > > queries, one does not become a Scholar.> > > > I reserve my judgment > about this person and his "lookalikes" > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > Bharat> > > > > On 6/15/07, Sreenadh <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > > Dear Bharat ji,> > > "Sri Kaul and his belief system" => That is cute > terminology. > > > ==>> > > > He uses sarcasm and calls names to > those who does not agree to > his> > > > thinking.> > > <==> > > That > is not good - if he does so.> > > ==>> > > > He is trying to force > his way around in proving all> > > > others are wrong.> > > <==> > > > That is quite natural for a scholar - and he is I assure.> > >> > > > ==>> > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi.> > > <==> > > > Are they two different characters; or just another id of Kaul > > itself?> > >> > > ==>> > > > You need not leave group and help serve > their purpose. Rather > stay> > > > and enjoy their mostly baseless > contentions.> > > <==> > >> > > I agree to the first statement and > stand by the same. But would> > > disagree to the second, since > Kaul's arguments also has some> > > supportive evidence, like a > person seeing a 2 colored kite from > only> > > one side. The truth > is both Sayana and Nirayana system existed in> > > Vedic period, and > also that Nirayana system of astrology is more > of> > > Tantric > origin than of Vedic. But let us not fight over > terminology> > > > but rather search the fruits of it, so that it would be of some > > use> > > to us.> > > Love,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > > > > <%> > 40>, > > > "Bharat Hindu> > > Astrology" > <hinduastrology@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Namaste Sri Madhu> > > >> > > > > I have had discussions with Sri Kaul and his belief system. I > > did> > > not agree> > > > to it and still call Vedic Astrology as > Vedic only. He uses > sarcasm> > > and> > > > calls names to those > who does not agree to his thinking. He is> > > trying to> > > > force > his way around in proving all others are wrong. He has > done> > > so > in> > > > various lists. In fact, Sri Windhall wrote an excellent > reply > to his> > > > contentions, to which he did not reply.> > > >> > > > > Another such a character is Mohan Jyotishi. There is no point> > > > discussing> > > > things with them. They are no one to determine > whether > Astrology is> > > Vedic or> > > > not. I am born to the > culture and shall call it Vedic, > including> > > astrology.> > > >> > > > > You need not leave group and help serve their purpose. Rather > > stay> > > and enjoy> > > > their mostly baseless contentions.> > > >> > > > > Thanks and Regards> > > > Bharat> > > >> > > > On 6/15/07, > Balagurusurya <balagurusurya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear > Sreenadh ,> > > > > When I wrote a reply to Kishen Kaul,I meant No > offence to > him.> > > > > I just suggested to verify the meaning > of " Parashara " with > a> > > > > learned Sanskrit scholar, since I > understand that one meaning> > > > > attributed to "Parashara' > is "The Liberated one" , that > means ,> > > > > Parashara can never > be a single person & BPHS may be a> > > contribution> > > > > of > several realised souls .> > > > > Unfortunately , he was finding > fault with my English. I could> > > > > clearly make out his > sarcastic note of my English.> > > > > I was under the presumption > that the list was meant for > learning> > > > > Jyotish. Now I > realise it is for learning flowery English> > > Language. I> > > > > > know Kishen Kaul and his known hostility to Nirayana > Zodiac .If I> > > > > > recollect correctly, VSK reviewed his ephemeris, years > back .> > > > >> > > > > Anyway, I am sure , as Mohan or in some > other alias he will> > > return to> > > > > vent his spite. I don't > have the Time to fight neither I > wish to> > > > > be the target of > someone in nomdeplume .> > > > >> > > > > Once I left your list but > returned ,as desired by you, Kumar > and> > > > > some other members > who are my friends.> > > > >> > > > > I don't want to be a disruptive > influence in your list .> > > > > I am sure the list will progress to > new horizon ,under your > able> > > > > guidance> > > > > All the > Best> > > > > Signing off> > > > >> > > > > Madhu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----> ----------------------------> Here's a new way to find what you're > looking for - Answers > > > > > -------------------------------> --> Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - > Answers> > > > > > > ________> > Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search > Club.?> > http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink> >> > > > ________> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/> Make every IM count. Download and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free.   Make it count!