To SUNIL JOHN

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Om Datta GuruDear Su,Thanks for ur kind wordsregardsSunil JohnMumbai , "v reality" <reality_v wrote:>> //>e) If our sages knew it then why did they not write about it (I think> >Sages were not on our payroll that they had to write everything they> >knew)//> > well said - totally agree with you !> > Su> > > >"jjnet2000_in" jjnet2000_in > > > > > Re: Neptune, Pluto, Uranus known to > >Hindus in 5,661 BCE (Was: To Robert Koch)> >Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:07:30 -0000> >> >> >OM Datta Guru> >> >I find over the years there are some constant topics which go in an> >endless cycle of repetitive non conclusive discussion resulting only in> >hatred as Jyotishis are a fixed bunch I guess.> >> >Nothing much comes out of this unfortunately as those who are Instant> >Critics would say> >> >a) The dating is wrong> >> >b) Sanskrit is wrongly interpreted.> >> >c) Work of someones imagination> >> >d) It works on mundane matters but not on humans, but these people would> >not use it for mundane predictions > >> >e) If our sages knew it then why did they not write about it (I think> >Sages were not on our payroll that they had to write everything they> >knew)> >> >Still Thanks for posting .> >> >Sunil John> >> >Mumbai> >> >> > _______________> Advertisement: 1000s of Sexy Singles online now at Lavalife > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3Den%5FAU%26a%3D29553 & _t=764581033 & _r=email_taglines_1000s & _m=EXT>

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Sir,Thanks for ur warm wordsRegards,Sunil JohnMumbai , "v reality" <reality_v wrote:>> Excellent Sunil !! I couldnt have said it better !> > Su> > > >"jjnet2000_in" jjnet2000_in > > > > > To Robert Koch> >Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:14:35 -0000> >> >Om Datta Guru> >> >Dear Robert,> >Though I had walked off this list long back due to the racist remark but> >was compelled to write in ur defense as I know u are a genuine seeker of> >this shastra. This mail is not intended just for u :-> >I feel we have a different problem its not about whether Outer Planets> >were written by our sages but do we have the Open Mind to understand> >jyotish, is it a growing science. Do the planets behave differently in> >different yugas (clues to this have been given in many old books), so> >should we alter our thinking.> >> >1) We do not have even 1-5 % of the ancient books so debating if outer> >planets were written in the old books is fruitless especially since> >there are hundreds of books in libraries and at homes which are yet to> >be translated. Even the few nadis with me are gathering dust though i> >have begged Good scholars of sanskrit to translate it and they are> >unable to do so. Sometimes I feel if Nadi work is meant for everyone> >e.g Santhanam died all of a sudden when he had almost finished Bhrigu> >Nadi & who ever has touched Bhrigu Nadi has faced unsurmountable> >problems. I wish he had brought it out, he had said all works aside and> >Bhrigu Nadi in one side, thats the worth of it.> >> >2) If KNRao challenged the marathi astrologers this must be taken in> >another context, we must understand Rao Sahebs strength & weakness first> >(this is not meant to demean him) - one of his own mentor in mundane> >astrology the Late Hardeo Sharma Trivedi used to use Outer Planets> >fantastically in his predictions and is till date one of the greatest> >predictors of mundane astrology.> >> >3) Ramans grandfather often said to him forget the shloka business see> >what works that is True astrology, so running behind shlokas for it is> >useless. Then even if shlokas are presented whats the use, can anyone> >today interpret it, I have not found a true knowledgeable guy in> >sanskrit.> >> >4) Current breed of scholars are self appointed scholars who have zero> >level of scientific mind and do not test any principle. thousands of> >shlokas do not work what do they have to say to that. So should we> >discard all the works of the Rishis who wrote it. Rishis do not agree to> >the effects of even something as a planet in a house, different opinions> >among rishis> >> >5) The Late P.S.Iyer whom Rao Saheb also says was one of the most> >fantastic astrologer used to predict to the DAY every event, he used to> >use the Outer Planets.> >> >6) 4 hrs from Bombay is a person still alive who was brought up in a> >tradition where books from Lopi Script were handed down to him, for 25> >yrs he was taught astrology and only after that he was asked to see his> >first chart & practice jyotish (the money he takes is in form of> >donation, he does not see the amount given & donates it full). I have> >not met an astrologer like him, of all the astrologers i have met and> >interacted he is the only guy I know who can UNLOCK a chart. He was> >introduced to me by an Ex-SJC Mumbai person and I have vowed not to take> >current breed of astrologers to him, they do not deserve him. I always> >say if people on the lists from india knew astrology they would not have> >spare time to write here as flock of people would be outside their> >house. This man has a daily visitation of 100 people and he drives the> >rest away. He uses Outer Planets and his parampara is of more than 14> >generations, at that time the world did not even know of Outer Planets.> >I asked him to share the shlokas from his family, he said can u or> >anyone read them, then do u all have the ability to decode it, whats the> >use of getting into scholarly mode that 'Only when u see the shloka u> >would believe, forget shlokas test the technique only then u would learn> >astrology' - he told me.> >> >I have begged him to come out with a book but he refuses, this vidya is> >only misused by egoists so he does not want a curse of sharing that> >knowledge to such readers. He is a DashaGranthi Brahmin btw, my efforts> >still continue in him bringing at least a basic book.> >> >7) Our astrology in current form is useless in a deeper sense, we> >realise that when we read ChandraKala Nadi (Devekerelam) & to a certain> >extent Bhavartha Ratnakara for e.g> >> >8) Narendra Desai the greatest astrologer to walk into america as per> >most senior astrologers in america had seen the text of Vasistha Nadi> >wherein Outer Planets was mentioned and we all know how fantastic a> >predictor he was, ofcourse his breed will never be born again. People on> >lists will sit here whole life arguing that Outer Planets are not> >mentioned in classics but no one has the guts to test it on 100 charts> >with an open mind. Only when we test we realise what we are missing and> >alas we say we hide behind Parasara's back as if we know everything that> >he said. We cant even interpret his shlokas well. If we read first 2> >chapters of BPHS and UNDERSTAND what he is trying to say (which is> >understandable as it is in clear english) we would know that he is not> >going to reveal everything that is astrology at all so its useless to> >hide behind his back.> >Shri Narendra Desai had a saying 'Do not listen to what people say, this> >Uranus works and it works too well'.> >> >9) People say that the issue is not if outerplanets takes 100 yrs blah> >blah to move from a sign, what about Jupiter it takes only 1 yr, can we> >say with all honesty that we understand how Jupiter is going to give> >results in a chart or say any other planet in jyotish - ofcourse not we> >do not know Jyotish as to even what Jyotish Is - this is the truth and> >can be found out when we meet masters who had some knowledge of this> >science.> >> >10) Jyotish is an internal Sadhana which requires Bhakti of the highest> >order and people who are argumentative, have anger, have jealousy, want> >to put others down, have ego, have need for fame or getting themselves> >shown as scholars will never understand it in this or any lifetime. Even> >Parasara and other sages have mentioned the above criteria, I guess they> >were not fools. This vidya is of Sanyasi's and not common man, anyone> >who has travelled in search of true jyotish n met masters will realise> >this statement as he will often find this answer staring right at his> >face.> >> >I appreciate people like u who have tested the outer planets in over> >hundred charts, u are far better off than us who only talk talk talk or> >hide behind shlokas and we cant even test the shlokas that we know on> >100 charts.> >> >To end this,' We do not understand what the sages have said so getting> >into arguments or discussions and says Sages said this or that is> >Absurdity'> >> >best wishes> >Sunil John> >Mumbai> >P.S: To others pls do not waste ur energy in replying to this mail, I do> >not have the time or inclination to read it.> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > , Robert Koch rk@> >wrote:> > >> > > Namah Shivaya> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~> > >> > > Dear Mr. Nair,> > >> > > Thank you for your post as well, which, although much less cynical> > > than the responses of Sreenadh-ji, poses some good points. I too> > > have argued for years since embarking on an ambitious study of> > > Jyotish in 1984 that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto have no place within> > > the practice of classical Jyotish. What naksatras do they rule? Who> > > is their Devata, etc.? But my original stoicism toward these planets> > > has changed due to undeniable experience of their> > > affects. Astrologers must bring different approaches to the table as> > > to the usefulness of these planets in actual astrological practice,> > > rather than endless parrot-like quoting of shastras in an effort to> > > dismiss them. There are those whose habit is to disable or ignore> > > new approaches based on scriptural and classical reference, and then> > > there are those who seek to find out in practice if they work or not> > > or are useful. I prefer to take the latter route frankly.> > >> > > Let me make my point more clear: I believe in the active and> > > enthusiastic efforts to try, research, and investigate the various> > > methods of astrology being put forth. If there is even an inkling of> > > reference to Vasishta Nadi, or Kapila Nadi as to Uranus, Neptune and> > > Pluto, or if stalwarts in the field for whom I have great respect (as> > > an example, Sri Chandulal S. Patel who did extensive research on the> > > use of outer planets) then I personally will not sit on my hands> > > until I have seen their effect in at least 100 charts. The fact is,> > > that if transit Pluto moves over the lagna or Moon of the chart, you> > > will not be able to deny the life-changing events and affects that> > > such transits bring forward. This has been my observation testing it> > > in hundreds of charts in a period of 23 years. There are various> > > progression methods too practiced by both Nadi astrologers as well as> > > western astrologers, and these will bring very specific events to our> > > awareness referencing these outer planets as well.> > >> > > However, you are right, if Sri K.N. Rao challenged some Marathi> > > astrologers to demonstrate their researches on outer planets, then> > > the latter should have come forward to prove their point.> > >> > > Anyway, so how will we use our classical knowledge then? To dismiss> > > or negate, or to rejuvenate the energy of discovery by trial and> > > error, research and investigation? It is all up to the disposition> > > of the individual astrologer and how he/she sees the learning and> > > practice of this great science. If I think for a moment that my> > > technique or knowledge is sufficient, and all the while I have not> > > practically tested even what I do know on a multiplicity of charts,> > > then Jyotish becomes a dry, intellectual hobby at best. Then it only> > > serves to reinforce the ego of the astrologer, rather than becoming a> > > vehicle to uplift and enlighten others. If, however, the astrologer> > > continually tries, tests, and researches, then he keeps the science> > > alive and you may be surprised how many secrets are revealed to a> > > person with that attitude toward his practice.> > >> > > With best regards, and no disrespect intended toward anyone -> > >> > > Robert> > >> > > At 01:48 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:> > >> > > >Hare rama krishna,> > > >> > > >dear robertji,> > > >> > > > Thanks for your post.> > > >> > > >But as seekers of truth and holders of light called jyothisha> > > >should we go by some stray references which quoted by some one in> > > >some group or we shud look for its textual reference.in tamil or> > > >sanskrit ,as most of naadis in this laungage and quote the page> > > >--line of concerned books.> > > >> > > >my observations.> > > >> > > >1)this planets stays more years and transit in ones life is> > > >negligible as almost 100 or more years it stays in one rasi> > > >> > > > 2) There is no graha --khetra allotted to this planets by vedic> > > > seers,like ucha ,swa or neecha .> > > >> > > >3)There is no dasa periods as its important in delination of results.> > > >> > > >4) their nature ,karaka and frndly and enmy planets r not identified> > > >again important in vedic style of delination of results.> > > >> > > >And i read --i dont hav text--in varaha hora --varahmihira describes> > > >--there are 100s crores of planets are there but we take only 7> > > >planets and 2 chaya grahs ( its some thing like grhanam shatha kodi> > > >---- like this --may be sree nath can help me ),as only this planets> > > >can influence in ecliptical path of earth .> > > >> > > >Also one naadi astrology people under the team of sri Taneja of> > > >delhi uses this planets as i was told he was taught this method by> > > >one J C LUTRA ,again i dont know whats their sourse,and i could not> > > >test it as they use differrent ayanamsha and charges 15000/- or some> > > >for software ,so i leav it> > > >> > > >Once in one astro conference held and chaired by BV raman ,sri KN> > > >rao challenged all marathi astrologers to prove those who uses extra> > > >sataurnian planets ,all shied away ,most of them were famous> >astrologers> > > >> > > >i heard in mahabharath vedvyas mentiones indra varuna,rudra dring> > > >the time of war --yes i dont hav that part with me now> > > >> > > >But its more mundane as a bloody distructive war.> > > >> > > >pls produce textual support.> > > >> > > >regrds sunil nair> > > >> > > >om shreem mahalaxmai namah.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > , Robert Koch rk@> >wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaste Prafulla,> > > > >> > > > > At 08:56 AM 7/4/2007, you wrote:> > > > > >Dear Sir> > > > > >> > > > > >Harshal, Neptune etc are referred in one of the nadi..I do not> > > > > >remember..one of the jyotish forum member shared that on another> > > > > >thread in another forum.> > > > >> > > > > Yes, according to my sources also, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are> > > > > taught in Vasishta and Kapila Nadis.> > > > >> > > > > Best regards,> > > > > Robert Koch> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >regards / Prafulla Gang> > > > > >http://www.prafulla.net> > > > > >> > > > > >"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right> >to> > > > > >be taken seriously."> > > > > >************************************************> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > navagraha@> > > > > > > ! Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:02:47 -0400> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Re: Importance of> >Bhava Chart> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Namaste Sreenadh,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > There are astrologers in Maharashatra that give absolutely> >brilliant> > > > > > > predictions. They use Hershel, Neptune etc. Rarely use dashas.> >I agree> > > > > > > with> > > > > > > you that Hershel and neptune have no classical standing.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I personally do not think hershel and neptune don't need to be> >used to> > > > > > > give> > > > > > > predictions. Quest for Pramana in classics is the way to go.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ...> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > On 7/4/07, Sreenadh sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> Dear Prafulla ji,> > > > > > >> I don't know. That is not my domai! n as well. I am after> >ancient> > > > > > >> Indian astrology - in a continuing search for the originals.> >That is> > > > > > >> the only thing I can say.> > > > > > >> Love,> > > > > > >> Sreenadh> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> --- In> > > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > >> > <%40yaho\> >ogroups.com>,> > > > > > >> Prafulla Gang> > > > > > >> jyotish@ wrote:> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> Dear Sreenadh ji> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> I am not familiar with history of jyotish and sanskrit as> >well. But> > > > > > >> In my observation - most traditionalist in northern India use> >bhava> > > > > > >> chalit chart for quite accurate predictions. If it does not> >make> > > > > > >> sense, then how come predictions are so accurate?> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> regards / Prafulla Gang> > > > > > >>> http://www.prafulla.net> > > > > > & !> > > >gt;>>> > > > > > >>> "The right to be heard does not automatically include the> >right to> > > > > > >> be taken seriously."> > > > > > >>> ************************************************> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > >>>> sreesog@> > > > > > >>>> Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:59:46 -0000> > > > > > >>>> To:> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > >> > > >> > <%40yaho\> >ogroups.com>> > > > > > >>>> Re: Importance of Bhava> >Chart> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> Dear Kannan ji,> > > > > > >>>> There is "no seperate bhava chart"; the Rasi chart itself> >is the> > > > > > >>>> bhava chart. Considering bhava chart as a seperate entity> >originated> > > > > ! > >>>> after the period of Sripati of 10th centuary AD. It is> >misleading> > > > > > >>>> concept similar to considering Navamsa as a seperate chart> >not> > > > > > >>>> supported by ancient sages.> > > > > > >>>> You can find more info regarding the same from the> >following file> > > > > > >>>> present in the file section of the group.> > > > > > >>>> URL:> > > > > > >>>>> > > >> >Sreenadh/> > > > > > >>>> Signs and Houses.pdf> > > > > > >>>> As you could see there is no point in discussing> >non-existent things> > > > > > >>>> which are not supported by the sages; as of me I trying to> > > > understand> > > > > > >>>> what they taught, as per their own words. [And therefore> >any> > > > > > >>>> discussion on Bhava, considering it not the same as sign,> >is not my> > > > > > >>>> domain]> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > & !> > > >gt; >>>> ==>> > > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important planet for Scorpio Lagna> >placed in> > > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and in Dhanu in Bhava (own> >sign).> > > > > > >>>> <==> > > > > > >>>> As you could see, this is absurd. For Scorpio Lagna, Ju> >in> > > > > > >>>> Capricorn (Makara) rasi, is in 3rd house (bhava), and is> > > > in Capricorn> > > > > > >>>> sign. (Sign and house being the same). This is the ancient> >concept;> > > > > > >>>> and the result derivation would be as per that. > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> ==>> > > > > > >>>>> In continuation to our earlier discussions on> > > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example Jupiter is Retrograde and> >placed in> > > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the effect of> >debilitation/own sign> > > > > ! > >>>>> in this case.> > > > > > >>>> <==> > > > > > >>>> That is an entirely different subject (i.e. how to> >interpret Sign> > > > > > >>>> and Navamsa results) and would discussed later.> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> ==>> > > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am eagerly waiting for your next> >file on> > > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.> > > > > > >>>> <==> > > > > > >>>> Yes, this is one thing in the urgent task list. I will> >try to> > > > > > >>>> complete it by next Saturday or prior to that. > > > > > > >>>> Love,> > > > > > >>>> Sreenadh> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> --- In> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > >> > > >> > <%40yaho\> >ogroups.com>,> > > > > > >> "kankan_73"> > > > > > >>> & g!> > > >t; <kankan_73@> wrote:> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Please tell me something on the importance of Bhava Chart.> >Do this> > > > > > >>>>> chart has importance like Navamsa. I have seen mentioning> >of bhava> > > > > > >>>>> position (if different from Rasi Chart) while mentioning> >Planetary> > > > > > >>>>> results in old Jathakams written by Kerala astrologers.> >What is> > > > > > >>>> the> > > > > > >>>>> result if an important planet is posited in different> >signs in Rasi> > > > > > >>>>> and Bhava.> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> For eg. Jupiter an important planet for Scorpio Lagna> >placed in> > > > > > >>>>> Makara in Rasi (debilitation) and in Dhanu in Bhava (own> >sign).> > > > > > >>> & g!> > > >t; How> > > > > > >>>>> do we analyze this. In contin uation to our earlier> >discussions on> > > > > > >>>>> Retrogression, in this example Jupiter is Retrograde and> >placed in> > > > > > >>>>> Meena in Navamsa. How much is the effect of> >debilitation/own sign> > > > > > >>>> in> > > > > > >>>>> this case.> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> I request you to give your views on Bhava vs Rasi> > > > > > >>>>> differences/effects in general and also your view on the> >above> > > > > > >>>>> example.> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Last but not the least I am eagerly waiting for your next> >file on> > > > > > >>>>> birth time rectification.> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Thanks & regards,> > > > > > >>>>> Kannan> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>> & !> > > >gt;> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>