Indus vally civilization was AFTER Mabhaharata and vedic period says Kishore ji ?!!!!

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Dear Kishore ji, ==> No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through mahabharat times. <== From where you got this maths? i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata period = 5000 years ?! Any supporting evidence? ==>Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. <== Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?!!!! That argument would really take time to digest, also due to the fact that it is presented with no supporting evidence (literary or otherwise)! I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was before Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that - * Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization

and * Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER vedic period !!! And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who lived after! Is there a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting "indus valley period" in that list or the like? Love, Sreenadh kishore mohan <kishore_future wrote: Dear sreenadh, Frankly speaking, I did not understand much of your mail. I am speaking of something and you seem to be speaking something entirely different. That Indra has come from Iraq during the great deluge is an irrefutable fact. THIS IS NOT ARYAN INVASION! but that Indra has tried to invade puras (hence, called Purandara) or that he has tried to kill successfully a brahmin kid like Vrtra who is also called Asura is also an irrefutable fact. That he has killed sachidevi's father, an Asura king, while Sachi is variously described as a brahmin lady is also given in the puranas. Thus, the later stories always described the people from same families(belonging to these times) either as brahmanic or as Asuric depending whether the story teller liked them or not. Thus, while the father of Vrtra is a brahmin, vrtra is an asura. Sachi is a brahmin, but her father

who valiantly fought Indira to stop him from kidnapping her is an asura. So, in the pre caste days, the people who were described as brahmins later belonged to the sect of Asuras. The purusha suktam describes the fighting between devas and the establised society(read the townships or janapadas- purusha means the constiution of pura or the society of the towns) and how this society was made a mincemeat in a long long sacrifice(read war) to create a new society based on the four Varnas. The asuras became brahmins and the fighter followers of Indra turned out to be the ruler class or kstriyas; a conglomeration of panis from the vanquished society and the agriculturists from the society indra came to be called as Vaisyas and the rest of the people who are simply workers came to be called sudras. Now by the time of these changes, there were indeed Vedas and good amount of knowledge but not in the way

they existed today. The changes in the society have changed the Vedas also and most of the sciences also have taken new shape. One of them is AStrology. As I have said, during the Vedic times, the astrology has concerned itself only with timing of ritualistic events. After the establishment of four fold society, the agriculture has set in and also, the population has incresed manifold. Thus, the agriculture needed to flourish and Jyotish was one of the tools to see that it flourished. Jyotisha has vividly described what kind of rains to expect(megha garbha sastra) depending upon the moment in which the clouds are "impregnated". It also has started fixing muhurats for sowing the seeds and harvesting the growth. With the increase in population and number of trades and the flourishment of private property, the jyotish has slowly started telling one's fortunes. But this has taken place

prior to the Ramayan times. No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes mahabharat(about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in my earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through mahabharat times. Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, indus valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later times to mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison. HOPE YOU WILL RECOGNISE THE DIFFERENCE IN WHAT I AM TALKING AND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING> Please call me soon after you reply this mail. Kishore patnaik , sree nadh <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Kishore ji,> Your message prompted me to have a re-look at the previous message by you. The primary reaction is – > * Such stories are not

going to help. Due to the following reasons -> > 1) Astrology does not seems to have originated with Vedas, but much before than that. It was only stellar astrology and Tropical calendar that can find its firm root in Vedic system. The system we follow today has mostly a Tantric basis, may be the ruminants of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization. The word Kalatantra the concept of Signs co-relating the degree-minute division of zodiac with Prana (breath) are all part of the Tantric system. > 2) The Rishi names in Vedas are indicative of the subject dealt with in the sloka and does not indicate persons. It is well accepted concept supported by Dayananta Saraswaty, Arya samajam, and many other scholars. There are ancient Sanskrit quotes that says the same as well.>

3) Except the Sayana bhashya (which was a interpretation of Vedas for the purpose of Yagas) we don't have even a single good translation/interpretation of Vedas, when it is stated in the Vedic literature it self that Adhibhouthika (worldly) –Adhidaivika (divine-assigning imaginary personalities)-Adhyatmika (spiritual) etc concept should be used for interpreting Vedas. We don't have a single interpretation of Vedas in these lines. There is another statement that the Vedas should be interpreted based on Shadangas - i.e. 6 branches of Vedas such as Astrology, (Jyotisha), Ethics and Laws (Kalpa) , Etymology (Nirukta), Phonetics (Siksha), Grammar (Vyakarana), Peotry (Jhanda). We don't have a single interpretation of Vedas in these lines as well. We should know the fact the Sayana Bhashaya actually helped in destroying the original meaning of Vedas, than to safe guard it. Only it

is Yaska who tried to uphold the truth at least to a certain extend. Just think of the> stupid text "Karma vipakam", an astrological text, by Sayana as well. That orthodox cast Brahmin nearly killed astrology as well! If you don't have "Karma vipakam" with you, just have a look at Prasnamarga, you will find some slokas from it in that text. > 4) How many of us know that "Agnimeele purohitam" (the first sloka of Rigveda) mainly deals with Grammar, and is speaking about the use of vowels? How many of us know that in Rigveda both Sidereal and tropical zodiac is distinguished and described? > 5) Don't think that every knowledge exists in Vedas, they contain just the seeds of most of the Indian knowledge branches. The science, maths and technology had grown far from that by now.> 6)

There not even a single proof in support of Aryan Invasion Theory, except some misinterpreted Vedic slokas. If people like Chandrahari argue that those descriptions are rather related to celestial phenomenon and calendar controversy between vedic and non-vedic cultures, with supportive proof what would be your answer? > 7) Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization had provided large archeological evidences, where is the archeological evidence for a separate "Aryan" culture existed here?! (Or even a separate vedic culture, except the literature, can we show ruined buildings, places where Homas (Fire sacrifice) were conducted or the even the ruins of great palaces of epic kings?) The scenario we see before us is "history accepting stories, with out seeking or depending on Archeological evidences"! What is the evidence provided by the Sidhu-Saraswathy culture says? Was the skeletons were of

people of Dravidian origin!! No, it is not! What is story of newly found city under see near Bombay? It existed almost in the same period or prior to Mohanjadara and Harappa! If you argue it is not – then is there any archeological proof that it is related to vedic or epic culture? (Put literary proof aside for some time, the Vedas had already put us into enough confusion with there various misleading> interpretations, and not providing much archeological proof!)> 8) If we study the literature and (astrology, architecture, religion etc related) knowledgebase of Dravidian people in Sankham period (1st century AD), and compare it with Sidhu-Saraswathy and Vedic literature and knowledgebase, then it is easy to understand that –> · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization, Vedic civilization (?) and Dravidian

Civilization are entirely different – even though much mix-up took place in the later period.> · Sindhu-Saraswathy Civilization was most scientifically advanced of the three and of the earliest origin.> · Dravidian civilization was the latest of the three, but it was the one later helped in the survival of most of ancient knowledgebase especially in the period of Arabic and English invasions, may be due to geographical and cultural factors.> · The names of ancient gods worshiped in nether north or south of India have little in common with the Vedic gods, even though later the local concepts of various gods got merged with some half vedic puranic gods.> · The contributions of Jain and Buddha schools of

thought that existed almost from Vedic period can not be neglected, and they were almost like a separate culture, similar to Dravidian or Vedic. This makes the differentiation of culture and religion very difficult. These streams should be valued and given due place in the history and knowledgebase we posses, let it be astrology or vastu or any other subject.> 9) If the Sidhu-Saraswathy people were this much advanced in architecture (vastu) do you think they were unaware of mathematics, astrology, yoga etc, when there is direct evidence (as told by historians and archeologists) for the continuous continuation of several of that practices (bricks, type of jewelries, pots etc) even today? > 10) Why there is not a language link between Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization and Sanskrit? The Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization is supposed to have used a language

without swara chinhas (symols indicating vowel sounds). And in the Indian subcontinent now there is almost not even a single language that exist this characteristics including Sanskrit! In my limited knowledge the only such language I know is English, (there could many others as well I am not an expert on such subjects), but I am not fool enough to co-related the language of Sindhu-Saraswathy civilization in any way to English which is one of 5th or 10th century origin (I don't know, when English originated). Do you have any clue, why the language of Sidhu-Saraswathy civilization lacks Swara chinhas while in Sanskrit it is used in plenty? > 11) Why vedic gods got discarded so easily, when the non-vedic gods continued exist (or get mixed with the popular religion), and still the Vedic-literature held its place? What is the knowledge base and power that helped the Tantric system to survive and even

merge the vedic stream into it?! As you know all the temples exists today are the products of Tantric system and not part of vedic culture! Vedas are "used by" the Tantrics and the popular majority to safeguard there original beliefs! Even though much mixing took place, the original system survived and the vedic system got merged into it! Take religion, astrology, medicine, or any other subject – it is a fact, we can find!> 12) If we don't know answer to many questions, then it is better to go up to there are say – rest I don't know, than making stories > 13) The last but the most important statement is – It is completely wrong to make stories with conducting an extensive research study on the subject. It is a violation of learning and research principles! Even after study, baseless story making should be avoided. > 14) We are astrologers and

better talk about the subject we know, rather than start doing story making for history. The historians (they are already hysterical) are doing that for long, and still teaching wrong stories. ) The condition of the study of history is so pathetic in our country that, even a History post graduate (MA) does not know how to read an ancient script, or how to protect a Palmyra leaf, or how to collect archeological evidences, or the worst even the outlines or system used by his own subject! Hurah…! To all…! )> > P.S: There could be many more reasons listed, as I am supporter of Asuras (Tantrics) as well. Yap, similar to the fact that I am a supporter of Vedic, Jain, Budha, Dravidian and all other available type of knowledge streams in ancient India. > Love,> Sreenadh> > > kishore mohan <kishore_future

wrote: I wish there is a person who is good enuf in History in the group who> could have commented on my post on para to para basis.> > K> > , sree nadh> wrote:> >> > Dear Kishore ji,> > Read the full message first! I have never argued that astrology> originated in that period or that that planetory position was> important! I have clearly stated it at the end of the mail !> > I was given only to indicate that, planetory position as> indicated by Moolatrikona could actually occur. > > ==>> > > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > > earlier than what you have indicated.> > <==> > I know that, agree to it completly. But you should know that> JHora full version allows chart calculation only upto BC 5400, and I> was

looking for a planetory position that fullfills Moolatrikona> planetory position at least to an extend, as just part of research.> It is not even necessory that such planetory position has any> relation with the origin of astrological system. That too I have> stated at the end of the mail. But you was impatiant, even to read it> till the end. No worries - it is ok. > > Love,> > Sreenadh> >> > kishore mohan wrote:> > Dear Shreenadh,> >> > Once it is said Most Indians are knowledgeable, spiritual and> > intellectual but when it comes to History, they act most ridiculous> > and gross.> >> > The ancient science of astrology has its origins in times much> > earlier than what you have indicated.> >> > The Origins of astrology have started with the Jyotish, the Vedang.> > In Vedic

times, they were mostly concerned with timing the vedic> > events such as Rituals and festivals.> >> > In the very old days, there were only Brahmins in this society and> > they were also called Asuras. They were mostly cow rearing people> > living in both forests and towns. They were mostly helped by> > Rakshasas, the predecessors of Yavanas.> >> > The word Rakshasa means one who protects. Hence, these people are> > mostly meant for protecting the herds of cows as well as protecting> > their masters. However, I do not think there was the concept of> > private property in the strict sense of the word.> >> > There were commercial traders called Panis. While these people are> > heavily into commercial trading, the agriculture was non existent> > and at most, only done in wilderness and not in a systematic way.>

>> > Indra, whose travel has been established from Iraq during the time> > of great deluge, has come to introduce cultivation of rice and> ruler> > ship. The purusha sukta describes the heavy fighting that took> place> > between the Gods (read the people of Indra) and the people who are> > living in towns. The story of Vrita getting killed in the hands of> > Indra is one such episode and occupies a prime place in RgVeda, The> > society has undergone heavy changes, especially with the> development> > of such new concepts as private property and caste system. The same> > story is retold as the episode of Prayag, wherein the King> > sacrifices his body to Devas.> >> > More over, there are several knowledgeable people who came along> > with Indra such as Kasyapa and perhaps , Brhspati. Certainly, this> >

kind of people has a hand in giving new direction to the sciences> > already established in the Land of India.> >> > This was a time of consolidation of ancient knowledge, synthesis of> > social forces and advent of new sciences. It is at this time that> > the Jyotish was practically used for timing events of mundane> > affairs, to start with, those connected with agriculture.> >> > Slowly, the Jyotish has found its way into the daily lives and> > people started remembering the stars in which one was born, timing> > the marriages and important Meta physical events such as> Coronations> > etc.> >> > Yet, even during the time of Sri Rama, people more depended upon> > the Nimitta and sakuna (omens)than on astrology.> >> > But by the time of Mahabharat, there were several books were> written>

> and the samhitas were innumerable in number and there were many> > methodologies adopted in predicting and reading charts. It is Sage> > Parasara who has been gracious enough to compile all the samhitas> > into one book and have given the most authentic set of rules of> > astrology for the posterity of mankind.> >> > So, at time you are talking of , Lord Krishna was already born and> > Sage Parasara was older to Sri Krishna by 100 years or so.> >> > Hence, you are postponing the beginnings of astrology by several> > thousands of years. More over, the name of Prgjyotishpur (and the> > land of Kamrup, for which it was the capital) is connected with> more> > of black magic but not with astrology.> >> > In any case, even if we agree on the lining of events as given> > above, it is virtually impossible to find out when

they have taken> > place. Hence, it is virtually impossible to find out the beginning> > of astrology in its present form also!> >> > Hope you will agree with me> >> > Kishore patnaik> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >