Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sreenadh ji, Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in toto. "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). " Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once we let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes tireless. "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the defenition of Karma." Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these mass scale calamities. It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas) which operate in the physical and mental realms: "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of winds and rains. iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc. v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation, etc. " Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained under Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama. You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware of these rules blessings Renu , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Renu ji,> ==>> > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> destructions> > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> action> > in a past birth?> <==> Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of course> every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events are> considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the act who> reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note that> there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results - this a> truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian to> the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the other> the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this birth> or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure). Actually> here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did something> wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and my> nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so who> ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to correct> ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly then> only we will start understanding it.> * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and then> only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and the> possible results of current actions which we decifer from the chart make> sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "renunw" renunw@> wrote:> >> >> > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> >> > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > of innocent school children while singing national song on republic> > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of earthquakes,> > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have weapons> > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin to> > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> >> > How true!> >> > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> destructions> > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> action> > in a past birth?> >> > blessings> >> > Renu> >> >> > , "panditarjun2004"> > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > >> > > dear friends> > >> > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned insurance> > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond human> > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > of innocent school children while singing national song on republic> > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of earthquakes,> > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have weapons> > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin to> > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > >> > > with best wishes and blessings> > > pandit arjun> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Renuji, I have been reading all this talk on Mass killings etc. It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the mails coming in . Which is not the fact . Mass killings ( deaths ) only take place when the destiny is joint, or when the balance of Evil overlaps the balance of Good on earth. Then the cleansing process has to start by Nature. This happens through Volcanoes erupting and cholera epidemics etc. in the olden days, and in todays times AIDs, earthquakes, Tsunami, terrorists attacks are the sources through which the cleansing takes place, to Remind the mankind that " Beware ". Cheiros story about his experience, written by a member is a true one. I have his autobiography with me in hard bound. The shift of the Axis which can take place anytime within 1-5 years is also going to cause millions to leave this world. This year specially, those sons who are not behaving properly with their fathers, are going to suffer the most ( Saturn in Leo ) was told to me by a Old Lady Yogi, just last night. Remember that even in these mass killings many innocents apparently would also die, but remember well, that a greatly spiritual inclined person would not be touched in these mass killings and would somehow escape these mass extinctions. We must harbour some common sense and not blame God for these deaths, is my request to all who think so. best wishes, Bhaskar. , "renunw" <renunw wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in toto.> > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the> same). "> > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once we> let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes> tireless.> > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> defenition of Karma."> > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these mass> scale calamities.> > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas)> which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of> winds and rains.> iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order);> e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or> honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical> similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation,> etc. "> > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained under> Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware of> these rules > > blessings> > Renu> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Renu ji,> > ==>> > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > destructions> > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > action> > > in a past birth?> > <==> > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of course> > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events are> > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the act> who> > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note that> > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results - this> a> > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian to> > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the> other> > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this> birth> > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure). Actually> > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did something> > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and my> > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so who> > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to correct> > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly then> > only we will start understanding it.> > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and then> > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and the> > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the chart> make> > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "renunw" renunw@> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > >> > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > of innocent school children while singing national song on republic> > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of earthquakes,> > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have weapons> > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin to> > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > >> > > How true!> > >> > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > destructions> > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > action> > > in a past birth?> > >> > > blessings> > >> > > Renu> > >> > >> > > , "panditarjun2004"> > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > >> > > > dear friends> > > >> > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned insurance> > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond human> > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> thousands> > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> republic> > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> earthquakes,> > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> weapons> > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin> to> > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > >> > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > pandit arjun> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sreenadh ji, Just something I forgot to add in the previous mail... 'but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)" I agree. It is so obvious in the modern world. The impact of inefficiency and selfishness of modern day politicians is clearly reflected on the daily struggling of common man. The doer of the action is partying while the others are suffering. blessings Renu , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Renu ji,> ==>> > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> destructions> > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> action> > in a past birth?> <==> Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of course> every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events are> considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the act who> reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note that> there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results - this a> truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian to> the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the other> the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this birth> or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure). Actually> here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did something> wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and my> nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so who> ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to correct> ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly then> only we will start understanding it.> * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and then> only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and the> possible results of current actions which we decifer from the chart make> sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "renunw" renunw@> wrote:> >> >> > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> >> > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > of innocent school children while singing national song on republic> > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of earthquakes,> > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have weapons> > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin to> > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> >> > How true!> >> > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> destructions> > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> action> > in a past birth?> >> > blessings> >> > Renu> >> >> > , "panditarjun2004"> > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > >> > > dear friends> > >> > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned insurance> > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond human> > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > of innocent school children while singing national song on republic> > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of earthquakes,> > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have weapons> > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin to> > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > >> > > with best wishes and blessings> > > pandit arjun> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Renu ji, ==>> Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once we> let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes> tireless.<== Agree. ==>> Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these mass> scale calamities.<== Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. As per my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT explain the mass scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal opinian - (it is rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part of the ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.==>> If you want to know the source of my> learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware of> these rules <== Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I don't know the source of such classification and giving importance to a number five. Please provide more info about the source of your learning. I would love know more about it. Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not requeired.Love and regards,Sreenadh , "renunw" <renunw wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in toto.> > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the> same). "> > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once we> let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes> tireless.> > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> defenition of Karma."> > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these mass> scale calamities.> > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas)> which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena of> winds and rains.> iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order);> e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or> honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical> similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, gravitation,> etc. "> > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained under> Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware of> these rules > > blessings> > Renu> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Renu ji,> > ==>> > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > destructions> > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > action> > > in a past birth?> > <==> > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of course> > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events are> > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the act> who> > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note that> > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results - this> a> > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian to> > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the> other> > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this> birth> > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure). Actually> > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did something> > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and my> > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so who> > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to correct> > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly then> > only we will start understanding it.> > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and then> > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and the> > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the chart> make> > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "renunw" renunw@> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > >> > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > of innocent school children while singing national song on republic> > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of earthquakes,> > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have weapons> > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin to> > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > >> > > How true!> > >> > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet no> > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > destructions> > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > action> > > in a past birth?> > >> > > blessings> > >> > > Renu> > >> > >> > > , "panditarjun2004"> > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > >> > > > dear friends> > > >> > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned insurance> > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond human> > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> thousands> > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> republic> > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> earthquakes,> > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> weapons> > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin> to> > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > >> > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > pandit arjun> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 dear friends while discussing an issue, members shall be open to hear as much as they say, whether one likes or not. i requested the august forum to find out the astrological reasons for mass killings which the learnt government and other institutions call acts of god. if some members feel that it is their destiny, punishment due to past karmas, prarabdha etc., nay, all of those innocent children (who are yet to create fresh bad karmas in this life) killed in similar fashion got the same bad accrual of past sins, the same members do not express restraint and tolerance towards the builder of a complex which collapses. uphaar theatre owner was convicted for people burnt to death in a theatre due to their prarabdha. when world trade centre collapsed and several brilliant managers of world's largest financial companies died, why shall we point binladen as the doer of this. going by this theory, shall we not say that it is their past karmas and hence no need to find fault with binladen. my query to such members who opine that god has nothing to do and all have died similarly at same time at same place in similar fashion only due to their own past and previous karmas, destiny, fate, prarabdha etc. why punish someone else. some members opined that this is not an astrological subject. i request them to refer any mention or reference of astro logic for such mass killings from ancient scriptures and would be grateful to learn astrological combinations to look into all such innocent people who die through burning while wathcing a movie in uphaar theatre or thousands of innocent school children die while singing national song on republic day in an earthquake. if astro logic is not there, kindly provide some other logic, reasoning or rationale. some members earlier opined that no two individual charts would be alike and each native brings his or her own past karma, destiny, fate and prarabdha. all governments across the world unanimously framed laws that if a person or several persons die due to the cause of someone else or perpetration of an act by someone else, that person is the killer and he is convicted. no government says that all born must die and hence they died naturally and hence no reason to find the killer. if people object to call these as acts of god, which our government does, kindly mention who is the doer, for the natives have not died on their own naturally. with best wishes and blessings pandit arjun , " Sreenadh " <sreelid wrote: > > > Dear Renu ji, > ==> > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or > > 'myself'. This " I " & 'mine " etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once > we > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes > > tireless. > <== > Agree. > ==> > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these > mass > > scale calamities. > <== > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. As per > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT explain the mass > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal opinian - (it is > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part of the > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced to > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based explantion > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used. > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with. > ==> > > If you want to know the source of my > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware > of > > these rules > <== > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I don't > know the source of such classification and giving importance to a number > five. Please provide more info about the source of your learning. I > would love know more about it. > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not > requeired. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > , " renunw " <renunw@> > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in > toto. > > > > " (Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the > > same). " > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or > > 'myself'. This " I " & 'mine " etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once > we > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes > > tireless. > > > > " Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the > > defenition of Karma. " > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these > mass > > scale calamities. > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas) > > which operate in the physical and mental realms: > > > > > > " i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena > of > > winds and rains. > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc. > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, > gravitation, > > etc. " > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained under > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama. > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware > of > > these rules > > > > blessings > > > > Renu > > > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Renu ji, > > > ==> > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet > no > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass > > > destructions > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful > > > action > > > > in a past birth? > > > <== > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of course > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events > are > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the act > > who > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note > that > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results - > this > > a > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian to > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the > > other > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this > > birth > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure). > Actually > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did > something > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and > my > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so > who > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to > correct > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly > then > > > only we will start understanding it. > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and then > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it. > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and the > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the chart > > make > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!) > > > Love and regards, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > , " renunw " renunw@ > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji, > > > > > > > > " it means that it is god who killed thousands > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on > republic > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of > earthquakes, > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have > weapons > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin > to > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways. " > > > > > > > > How true! > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet > no > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass > > > destructions > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful > > > action > > > > in a past birth? > > > > > > > > blessings > > > > > > > > Renu > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " panditarjun2004 " > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned > insurance > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods, > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond human > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed > > thousands > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on > > republic > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs > of > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of > > earthquakes, > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have > > weapons > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin > > to > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways. > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > > > pandit arjun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Bhaskar ji, "It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the mails coming in . Which is not the fact ." I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God is the responsible source for these calamities....and if you may go through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it. ".......... Then the cleansing process has to start by Nature." True. That is what I meant by 'Uthu niyama' [physical order] or 'Dhamma niyama' [order of the norm]. "Remember that even in these mass killings many innocents apparently would also die, but remember well, that a greatly spiritual inclined person would not be touched in these mass killings and would somehow escape these mass extinctions." Agreed once again:) I have noticed this too. In a bomb blast inside a bus, a passer-by may die, but a passenger seated close to the blast may survive. It is only that it seems so unfair when innocent children have to die. Thanks for other interesting information. blessings Renu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sreenadh ji, "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - which many may not agree with." If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would Karma not have a place in astrology? 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not requeired" Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate in this physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the Buddha....if you want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But all that is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama. Hope this helps. blessings Renu , "Sreenadh" <sreelid wrote:>> > Dear Renu ji,> ==>> > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once> we> > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes> > tireless.> <==> Agree. > ==>> > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> mass> > scale calamities.> <==> Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. As per> my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT explain the mass> scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal opinian - (it is> rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part of the> ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced to> Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic> concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is> concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based explantion> and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used.> Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is> my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> ==>> > If you want to know the source of my> > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware> of> > these rules > <==> Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I don't> know the source of such classification and giving importance to a number> five. Please provide more info about the source of your learning. I> would love know more about it.> Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version> could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not> requeired.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "renunw" renunw@> wrote:> >> >> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> >> > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in> toto.> >> > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the> > same). "> >> > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once> we> > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes> > tireless.> >> > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > defenition of Karma."> >> > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> mass> > scale calamities.> >> > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas)> > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> >> >> > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena> of> > winds and rains.> > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order);> > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or> > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical> > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> gravitation,> > etc. "> >> > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained under> > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> >> > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware> of> > these rules > >> > blessings> >> > Renu> >> >> >> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Renu ji,> > > ==>> > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet> no> > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > destructions> > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > > action> > > > in a past birth?> > > <==> > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of course> > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events> are> > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the act> > who> > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note> that> > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results -> this> > a> > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian to> > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the> > other> > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this> > birth> > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure).> Actually> > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did> something> > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and> my> > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so> who> > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to> correct> > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly> then> > > only we will start understanding it.> > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and then> > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and the> > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the chart> > make> > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "renunw" renunw@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > >> > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> republic> > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs of> > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> earthquakes,> > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> weapons> > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin> to> > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > > >> > > > How true!> > > >> > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet> no> > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > destructions> > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > > action> > > > in a past birth?> > > >> > > > blessings> > > >> > > > Renu> > > >> > > >> > > > , "panditarjun2004"> > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > dear friends> > > > >> > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> insurance> > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond human> > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> > thousands> > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > republic> > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> of> > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > earthquakes,> > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > weapons> > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin> > to> > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > > >> > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > pandit arjun> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Renu ji, ==>> "It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the mails> coming in . Which is not the fact ."> I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God> is the responsible source for these calamities....and if you may go> through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it.<== I don't agree - if good is god, bad as well. If all divine is god, all evil as well. The fact is that there is nothing good or bad, there is nothing divine of evil - if looked from an objective perspective. It is just the nature - nature of things, nature of beings, nature of nature, nature of us. Why bring in God into all these, when nature itself is is the explanation? Why bring God into all these if rhythem of time/nature itself can be an explanation? If Karma theory was required to explain all these - then why didn't the ancient Rishi horas mentioned the same? This all leads to the conclusion that - Karma theory is NOT required, and is NOT part of ancient indian astrology. There could be much better logical explanations. God is beyond everything that is good and bad; beyond all classifications, dualities. God is the ultimate oneness - within and outside, everywhere...... If we takes the path of classifications/divisions - better not to bring in god and so called god driven Karma theory in to picture. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "renunw" <renunw wrote:>> Dear Bhaskar ji,> > "It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the mails> coming in . Which is not the fact ."> > I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God> is the responsible source for these calamities....and if you may go> through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it.> ".......... Then the cleansing process has to start by Nature." True.> That is what I meant by 'Uthu niyama' [physical order] or 'Dhamma> niyama' [order of the norm]. "Remember that even in these mass> killings many innocents apparently would also die, but remember well,> that a greatly spiritual inclined person would not be touched in these> mass killings and would somehow escape these mass extinctions." Agreed> once again:) I have noticed this too. In a bomb blast inside a bus, a> passer-by may die, but a passenger seated close to the blast may> survive. It is only that it seems so unfair when innocent children have> to die. Thanks for other interesting information. blessings Renu> , "Bhaskar"> rajiventerprises@ wrote:> >> > Dear Renuji, I have been reading all this talk on Mass killings etc.> > It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the mails> > coming in . Which is not the fact . Mass killings ( deaths ) only take> > place when the destiny is joint, or when the balance of Evil overlaps> > the balance of Good on earth. Then the cleansing process has to start> > by Nature. This happens through Volcanoes erupting and cholera> > epidemics etc. in the olden days, and in todays times AIDs,> > earthquakes, Tsunami, terrorists attacks are the sources through which> > the cleansing takes place, to Remind the mankind that " Beware ".> > Cheiros story about his experience, written by a member is a true one.> I> > have his autobiography with me in hard bound. The shift of the Axis> > which can take place anytime within 1-5 years is also going to cause> > millions to leave this world. This year specially, those sons who are> > not behaving properly with their fathers, are going to suffer the most> (> > Saturn in Leo ) was told to me by a Old Lady Yogi, just last night.> > Remember that even in these mass killings many innocents apparently> > would also die, but remember well, that a greatly spiritual inclined> > person would not be touched in these mass killings and would somehow> > escape these mass extinctions. We must harbour some common sense and> > not blame God for these deaths, is my request to all who think so.> > best wishes, Bhaskar.> >> >> >> > , "renunw" renunw@> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > >> > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in> > toto.> > >> > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the> > > same). "> > >> > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego.> Once> > we> > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey> becomes> > > tireless.> > >> > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > defenition of Karma."> > >> > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> > mass> > > scale calamities.> > >> > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas)> > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > >> > >> > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena> > of> > > winds and rains.> > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order);> > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or> > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> physical> > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > gravitation,> > > etc. "> > >> > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained> under> > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > >> > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware> > of> > > these rules > > >> > > blessings> > >> > > Renu> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > ==>> > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet> > no> > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > destructions> > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > > > action> > > > > in a past birth?> > > > <==> > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of> course> > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events> > are> > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the> act> > > who> > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note> > that> > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results -> > this> > > a> > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian> to> > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the> > > other> > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this> > > birth> > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure).> > Actually> > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did> > something> > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and> > my> > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so> > who> > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to> > correct> > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly> > then> > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and> then> > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and> the> > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the> chart> > > make> > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > , "renunw" renunw@> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > >> > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > republic> > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> of> > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > earthquakes,> > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > weapons> > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin> > to> > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > > > >> > > > > How true!> > > > >> > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet> > no> > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > destructions> > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > > > action> > > > > in a past birth?> > > > >> > > > > blessings> > > > >> > > > > Renu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ,> "panditarjun2004"> > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > dear friends> > > > > >> > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > insurance> > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond> human> > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> > > thousands> > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > > republic> > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> > of> > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that> gods> > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > earthquakes,> > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > > weapons> > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties> akin> > > to> > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > > > >> > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear All, The victims and the guys who carried out the deed are/were riding their fate. Fate born out of the 3 levels of karma. At our level it is a crime, plain and simple. Some were completing their ayush, some were building/digging their own graves for the furure, for some it was an opportune time to act in a manner (unknown to their ownselves) which made them Heros, Villains etc. For some victims dependants it must be a sudden turn to their lives etc. In this diverse mix of people, it is god who is the conducting the " orchestra " . Astrolgy stops somewhere below that level. In the victims and aggressors many souls , almost all unknowingly played out their fate, balance of karma or built new Cr/Dr. If astrology knew all than the CIA would have all their stooges horoscope crosschecked by some of the astrologers to safegaurd against some of them doing a 9/11 on them again. Thanks & Regards. Chiranjiv Mehta. --- On Mon, 28/7/08, renunw <renunw wrote: renunw <renunw Re: God's Missiles and Karma redifined Monday, 28 July, 2008, 6:02 PM Dear Sreenadh ji, " Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/ rhythem  based explantion and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - which many may not agree with. " If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would Karma not have a place in astrology? 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not requeired " Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate in this physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the Buddha....if you want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But all that is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama. Hope this helps. blessings Renu ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " <sreelid wrote: > > > Dear Renu ji, > ==> > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or > > 'myself'. This " I " & 'mine " etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once > we > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes > > tireless. > <== > Agree. > ==> > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these > mass > > scale calamities. > <== > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. As per > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT explain the mass > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal opinian - (it is > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part of the > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced to > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/ rhythem based explantion > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used. > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with. > ==> > > If you want to know the source of my > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware > of > > these rules > <== > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I don't > know the source of such classification and giving importance to a number > five. Please provide more info about the source of your learning. I > would love know more about it. > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not > requeired. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " renunw " renunw@ > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation. ...though I may not agree in > toto. > > > > " (Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the > > same). " > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or > > 'myself'. This " I " & 'mine " etc. concept is the root of our ego. Once > we > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey becomes > > tireless. > > > > " Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the > > defenition of Karma. " > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these > mass > > scale calamities. > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas) > > which operate in the physical and mental realms: > > > > > > " i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena > of > > winds and rains. > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order); > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the physical > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc. > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, > gravitation, > > etc. " > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained under > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama. > > > > You may agree or disagree.... .If you want to know the source of my > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware > of > > these rules > > > > blessings > > > > Renu > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Renu ji, ==>> If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would Karma not> have a place in astrology?<== * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature etc) are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily reality observed) * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on astrology. * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven belief is just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better observable, and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth is concerned. * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a kind of explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an objective reality, even though they too can be considered as concepts formulated by human mind.==>> Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate in this> physical and mental realm.<== Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate 10 niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He wan trying to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does not make that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might have known that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation; certainly he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications and explanations as well. Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides a classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it does not mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just classifications used for clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for reality. Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the reality that is beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations using concepts are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake them as reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.Love and regards,Sreenadh , "renunw" <renunw wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only after> Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic astrology> as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own> time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using Karma> theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology erroniously> integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - which> many may not agree with."> > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would Karma not> have a place in astrology?> > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version> could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not> requeired"> > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate in this> physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the Buddha....if you> want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But all that> is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> > Hope this helps.> > blessings> > Renu> > > , "Sreenadh"> sreelid@ wrote:> >> >> > Dear Renu ji,> > ==>> > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego.> Once> > we> > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey> becomes> > > tireless.> > <==> > Agree. > > ==>> > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> > mass> > > scale calamities.> > <==> > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. As per> > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT explain the> mass> > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal opinian - (it> is> > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part of the> > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced to> > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic> > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology is> > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based explantion> > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not used.> > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This is> > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > ==>> > > If you want to know the source of my> > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware> > of> > > these rules > > <==> > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I don't> > know the source of such classification and giving importance to a> number> > five. Please provide more info about the source of your learning. I> > would love know more about it.> > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version> > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not> > requeired.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "renunw" renunw@> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > >> > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in> > toto.> > >> > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the> > > same). "> > >> > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego.> Once> > we> > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey> becomes> > > tireless.> > >> > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > defenition of Karma."> > >> > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> > mass> > > scale calamities.> > >> > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes (niyamas)> > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > >> > >> > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal phenomena> > of> > > winds and rains.> > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic order);> > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane or> > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> physical> > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > gravitation,> > > etc. "> > >> > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained> under> > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > >> > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already aware> > of> > > these rules > > >> > > blessings> > >> > > Renu> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > ==>> > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet> > no> > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > destructions> > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > > > action> > > > > in a past birth?> > > > <==> > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of> course> > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far events> > are> > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the> act> > > who> > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note> > that> > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results -> > this> > > a> > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT alian> to> > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or the> > > other> > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in this> > > birth> > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure).> > Actually> > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did> > something> > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature and> > my> > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere, so> > who> > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to> > correct> > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly> > then> > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the destruction> > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and> then> > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and> the> > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the> chart> > > make> > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of my> > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > , "renunw" renunw@> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > >> > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > republic> > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> of> > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that gods> > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > earthquakes,> > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > weapons> > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties akin> > to> > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > > > >> > > > > How true!> > > > >> > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the innocent.....yet> > no> > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > destructions> > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same wrongful> > > > action> > > > > in a past birth?> > > > >> > > > > blessings> > > > >> > > > > Renu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ,> "panditarjun2004"> > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > dear friends> > > > > >> > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > insurance> > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that floods,> > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond> human> > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> > > thousands> > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > > republic> > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> > of> > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that> gods> > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > earthquakes,> > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > > weapons> > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties> akin> > > to> > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > > > >> > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sreenadh ji, You have got me wrong. I neither said all divine/good is god nor that all bad is not god. I agree with Bhaskar ji when he says that god is not responsible for all calamities. At the same time I disagree with may be almost everyone here...that god is responsible for all good things in the world. I should be responsible for my own well being or my own destruction, and not anyone else. Mind is the forerunner of everything. It is our mind that we need to control so that we could accept everything with equanimity, whether good or bad. Returning to 'karma' theory....... at the end even law of karma will surrender to natural laws. "God is the ultimate oneness - within and outside, everywhere" In this I feel there is some truth worthy of investigating through meditation...thanks. blessings Renu blessings Renu , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> > Dear Renu ji,> ==>> > "It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the> mails> > coming in . Which is not the fact ."> > I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God> > is the responsible source for these calamities....and if you may go> > through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it.> <==> I don't agree - if good is god, bad as well. If all divine is god,> all evil as well. The fact is that there is nothing good or bad, there> is nothing divine of evil - if looked from an objective perspective. > It is just the nature - nature of things, nature of beings, nature of> nature, nature of us. Why bring in God into all these, when nature> itself is is the explanation? Why bring God into all these if rhythem of> time/nature itself can be an explanation? If Karma theory was required> to explain all these - then why didn't the ancient Rishi horas mentioned> the same? This all leads to the conclusion that - Karma theory is NOT> required, and is NOT part of ancient indian astrology. There could be> much better logical explanations. God is beyond everything that is good> and bad; beyond all classifications, dualities. God is the ultimate> oneness - within and outside, everywhere...... If we takes the path of> classifications/divisions - better not to bring in god and so called god> driven Karma theory in to picture.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "renunw" renunw@> wrote:> >> > Dear Bhaskar ji,> >> > "It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the> mails> > coming in . Which is not the fact ."> >> > I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God> > is the responsible source for these calamities....and if you may go> > through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it.> > ".......... Then the cleansing process has to start by Nature." True.> > That is what I meant by 'Uthu niyama' [physical order] or 'Dhamma> > niyama' [order of the norm]. "Remember that even in these mass> > killings many innocents apparently would also die, but remember well,> > that a greatly spiritual inclined person would not be touched in these> > mass killings and would somehow escape these mass extinctions." Agreed> > once again:) I have noticed this too. In a bomb blast inside a bus, a> > passer-by may die, but a passenger seated close to the blast may> > survive. It is only that it seems so unfair when innocent children> have> > to die. Thanks for other interesting information. blessings Renu> > , "Bhaskar"> > rajiventerprises@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Renuji, I have been reading all this talk on Mass killings etc.> > > It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the> mails> > > coming in . Which is not the fact . Mass killings ( deaths ) only> take> > > place when the destiny is joint, or when the balance of Evil> overlaps> > > the balance of Good on earth. Then the cleansing process has to> start> > > by Nature. This happens through Volcanoes erupting and cholera> > > epidemics etc. in the olden days, and in todays times AIDs,> > > earthquakes, Tsunami, terrorists attacks are the sources through> which> > > the cleansing takes place, to Remind the mankind that " Beware ".> > > Cheiros story about his experience, written by a member is a true> one.> > I> > > have his autobiography with me in hard bound. The shift of the Axis> > > which can take place anytime within 1-5 years is also going to cause> > > millions to leave this world. This year specially, those sons who> are> > > not behaving properly with their fathers, are going to suffer the> most> > (> > > Saturn in Leo ) was told to me by a Old Lady Yogi, just last night.> > > Remember that even in these mass killings many innocents apparently> > > would also die, but remember well, that a greatly spiritual inclined> > > person would not be touched in these mass killings and would somehow> > > escape these mass extinctions. We must harbour some common sense and> > > not blame God for these deaths, is my request to all who think so.> > > best wishes, Bhaskar.> > >> > >> > >> > > , "renunw" renunw@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > >> > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in> > > toto.> > > >> > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and> the> > > > same). "> > > >> > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego.> > Once> > > we> > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey> > becomes> > > > tireless.> > > >> > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > > defenition of Karma."> > > >> > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> > > mass> > > > scale calamities.> > > >> > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes> (niyamas)> > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > >> > > >> > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal> phenomena> > > of> > > > winds and rains.> > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic> order);> > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane> or> > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> > physical> > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > > gravitation,> > > > etc. "> > > >> > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained> > under> > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > >> > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already> aware> > > of> > > > these rules > > > >> > > > blessings> > > >> > > > Renu> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > ==>> > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> innocent.....yet> > > no> > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > > destructions> > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> wrongful> > > > > action> > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > <==> > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of> > course> > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far> events> > > are> > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the> > act> > > > who> > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note> > > that> > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results> -> > > this> > > > a> > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT> alian> > to> > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or> the> > > > other> > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in> this> > > > birth> > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure).> > > Actually> > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did> > > something> > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature> and> > > my> > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere,> so> > > who> > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to> > > correct> > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly> > > then> > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> destruction> > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and> > then> > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and> > the> > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the> > chart> > > > make> > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of> my> > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > , "renunw"> renunw@> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > >> > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > > republic> > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> > of> > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that> gods> > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > earthquakes,> > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > > weapons> > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties> akin> > > to> > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > > > > >> > > > > > How true!> > > > > >> > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> innocent.....yet> > > no> > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > > destructions> > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> wrongful> > > > > action> > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > >> > > > > > blessings> > > > > >> > > > > > Renu> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ,> > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > >> > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > > insurance> > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that> floods,> > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond> > human> > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> > > > thousands> > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > > > republic> > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed> lakhs> > > of> > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that> > gods> > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > > > weapons> > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties> > akin> > > > to> > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Bhartiji, My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked, and take it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your intelligence or any chalenge. just normal arguments. // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.// If you dont accept the Karma theory then how will you explain some children born with great physical defects while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice . If one goes with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the rapist must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the girls destiny to get raped. Is it not ? You say that one must go with destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which one should go ? //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.// where is it written that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? If You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, then please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who are born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ? //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OURLIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. // You cannot say that all of us say so. I dont say so. // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.// On what basis is Gods wish made seperately for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for others ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God loves making one person born crippled or blind ? //SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.// then what is to do with destiny ? how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it is formed ? //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]// It is not easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that you are extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones destiny. //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.// You mean God has done Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is this mathematics different for various people around us ? // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE // One has to learn astrology or other such sciences to know ones future. // I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR DESTINY. // What You know may not be perfect or complete. There are others also who know many more things. What about them ? What about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that nobody can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How they have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their destinies ? For how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did you realise that one cannot change his destiny ? // WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIESASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, // What duties have been assigned to each of us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler while the other, a diamond merchant ? // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY. // How can one say that we are going against His will ? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ? Destiny is the truth. then you mean the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over and so must the truth be ? What say ? best wishes and happy answering, Bhaskar. , "bharti_dc" <bharti_dc wrote:>> -DEAR RENU JI > > MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE.ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.> > COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.> ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES.WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH > IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR > DESTINY.> U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]> HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.> > SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR > DESTINY.WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR,AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT > IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY.> > SO DISCUSSING WHY KARMA NOT REVEAL OUR LIFE ,,TO MY MINDIT IS > AN ......QUESTION.> > -- In , "Sreenadh" > sreesog@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear Renu ji,..> > ==>> > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would > Karma not> > > have a place in astrology?> > <==> > * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature > etc)> > are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily > reality> > observed)> > * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the> > culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on> > astrology.> > * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven > belief is> > just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of> > beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better > observable,> > and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth is> > concerned.> > * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a > kind of> > explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an> > objective reality, even though they too can be considered as > concepts> > formulated by human mind.> > ==>> > > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate > in> > this> > > physical and mental realm.> > <==> > Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate > 10> > niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He wan > trying> > to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something> > inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does not > make> > that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might have > known> > that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation; > certainly> > he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications > and> > explanations as well.> > Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides a> > classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it does > not> > mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya> > (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just classifications > used for> > clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for reality.> > Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the reality > that is> > beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations using > concepts> > are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake > them as> > reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.> > > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > , "renunw" <renunw@>> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > >> > > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only > after> > > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic> > astrology> > > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own> > > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using > Karma> > > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology > erroniously> > > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - > which> > > many may not agree with."> > >> > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would > Karma not> > > have a place in astrology?> > >> > > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified > version> > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though > not> > > requeired"> > >> > > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living > beings are> > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate > in> > this> > > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the > Buddha....if> > you> > > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But > all> > that> > > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> > >> > > Hope this helps.> > >> > > blessings> > >> > > Renu> > >> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreelid@ wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > ==>> > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' > or 'me' or> > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our > ego.> > > Once> > > > we> > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The > journey> > > becomes> > > > > tireless.> > > > <==> > > > Agree. > > > > ==>> > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to > these> > > > mass> > > > > scale calamities.> > > > <==> > > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. > As> > per> > > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT > explain the> > > mass> > > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal > opinian - (it> > > is> > > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part > of the> > > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced > to> > > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed > vedic> > > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian > astrology> > is> > > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based> > explantion> > > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not> > used.> > > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. > This> > is> > > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > > > ==>> > > > > If you want to know the source of my> > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are > already> > aware> > > > of> > > > > these rules > > > > <==> > > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I > don't> > > > know the source of such classification and giving importance > to a> > > number> > > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your > learning. I> > > > would love know more about it.> > > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and > DOES> > NOT> > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified > version> > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, > though not> > > > requeired.> > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > , "renunw" > renunw@> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not > agree in> > > > toto.> > > > >> > > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one > and> > the> > > > > same). "> > > > >> > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' > or 'me' or> > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our > ego.> > > Once> > > > we> > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The > journey> > > becomes> > > > > tireless.> > > > >> > > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine > the> > > > > defenition of Karma."> > > > >> > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to > these> > > > mass> > > > > scale calamities.> > > > >> > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes> > (niyamas)> > > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable > and> > > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal> > phenomena> > > > of> > > > > winds and rains.> > > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic> > order);> > > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar > cane> > or> > > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> > > physical> > > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., > processes of> > > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural > phenomena> > > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > > > gravitation,> > > > > etc. "> > > > >> > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be > explained> > > under> > > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > > >> > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source > of my> > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are > already> > aware> > > > of> > > > > these rules > > > > >> > > > > blessings> > > > >> > > > > Renu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > innocent.....yet> > > > no> > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in > mass> > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> > wrongful> > > > > > action> > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > <==> > > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine > the> > > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - > of> > > course> > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far> > events> > > > are> > > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who > initiate the> > > act> > > > > who> > > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. > (Please note> > > > that> > > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We > do> > > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; > we do> > > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good > results> > -> > > > this> > > > > a> > > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT> > alian> > > to> > > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But > we> > > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth > or> > the> > > > > other> > > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad > in> > this> > > > > birth> > > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for > sure).> > > > Actually> > > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I > do/did> > > > something> > > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's > nature> > and> > > > my> > > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am > everywhere,> > so> > > > who> > > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have > to> > > > correct> > > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - > possibly> > > > then> > > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> > destruction> > > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes > sense and> > > then> > > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of > events and> > > the> > > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from > the> > > chart> > > > > make> > > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the > results of> > my> > > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have > to> > > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma > acts.....!)> > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > > , "renunw"> > renunw@> > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song > on> > > > republic> > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed > lakhs> > > of> > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers > that> > gods> > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too > have> > > > weapons> > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar > casualties> > akin> > > > to> > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different > ways."> > > > > > >> > > > > > > How true!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > innocent.....yet> > > > no> > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in > mass> > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> > wrongful> > > > > > action> > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ,> > > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > > > insurance> > > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that> > floods,> > > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities > beyond> > > human> > > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who > killed> > > > > thousands> > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national > song on> > > > > republic> > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who > swallowed> > lakhs> > > > of> > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers > that> > > gods> > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too > have> > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar > casualties> > > akin> > > > > to> > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different > ways.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sreenadh ji, You are indeed transformed...less astrology and more philosophy. I do love this... * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature etc) are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily reality observed) I agree * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on astrology. I cannot agree.....Just because ancient Rishi Horas does not mention karma, it need not be that karma has no place in astrology. * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven belief is just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better observable, and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth is concerned. Good point...Sreenadh ji..I agree with you. * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a kind of explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an objective reality, even though they too can be considered as concepts formulated by human mind. Yes, how can we know which is true and which is not. Everything is created by human mind. Nothing is proven...not even the existence of a creator or god. You make me more confused 'Even Buddha might have known that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation; certainly he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications and explanations as well" True....I have no reason to disagree with you. No need to stick to 5 niyamas only. Even Buddha insisted that one should not accept his teachings unless one is convinced of its veracity. He showed the path...it is for us to tread along it if we think it is the right path. blessings Renu ==> , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> > Dear Renu ji,> ==>> > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would Karma not> > have a place in astrology?> <==> * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature etc)> are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily reality> observed)> * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the> culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on> astrology.> * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven belief is> just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of> beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better observable,> and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth is> concerned.> * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a kind of> explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an> objective reality, even though they too can be considered as concepts> formulated by human mind.> ==>> > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate in> this> > physical and mental realm.> <==> Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate 10> niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He wan trying> to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something> inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does not make> that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might have known> that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation; certainly> he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications and> explanations as well.> Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides a> classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it does not> mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya> (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just classifications used for> clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for reality.> Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the reality that is> beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations using concepts> are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake them as> reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.> > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> , "renunw" renunw@> wrote:> >> >> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> >> > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only after> > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic> astrology> > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own> > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using Karma> > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology erroniously> > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - which> > many may not agree with."> >> > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would Karma not> > have a place in astrology?> >> > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version> > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not> > requeired"> >> > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate in> this> > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the Buddha....if> you> > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But all> that> > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> >> > Hope this helps.> >> > blessings> >> > Renu> >> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreelid@ wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Renu ji,> > > ==>> > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego.> > Once> > > we> > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey> > becomes> > > > tireless.> > > <==> > > Agree. > > > ==>> > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> > > mass> > > > scale calamities.> > > <==> > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. As> per> > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT explain the> > mass> > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal opinian - (it> > is> > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part of the> > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced to> > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic> > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian astrology> is> > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based> explantion> > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not> used.> > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. This> is> > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > > ==>> > > > If you want to know the source of my> > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already> aware> > > of> > > > these rules > > > <==> > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I don't> > > know the source of such classification and giving importance to a> > number> > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your learning. I> > > would love know more about it.> > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES> NOT> > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified version> > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though not> > > requeired.> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "renunw" renunw@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > >> > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not agree in> > > toto.> > > >> > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and> the> > > > same). "> > > >> > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' or 'me' or> > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our ego.> > Once> > > we> > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The journey> > becomes> > > > tireless.> > > >> > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > > defenition of Karma."> > > >> > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to these> > > mass> > > > scale calamities.> > > >> > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes> (niyamas)> > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > >> > > >> > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable and> > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal> phenomena> > > of> > > > winds and rains.> > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic> order);> > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar cane> or> > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> > physical> > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., processes of> > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural phenomena> > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > > gravitation,> > > > etc. "> > > >> > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be explained> > under> > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > >> > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source of my> > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are already> aware> > > of> > > > these rules > > > >> > > > blessings> > > >> > > > Renu> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > ==>> > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> innocent.....yet> > > no> > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > > destructions> > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> wrongful> > > > > action> > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > <==> > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine the> > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - of> > course> > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far> events> > > are> > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who initiate the> > act> > > > who> > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. (Please note> > > that> > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We do> > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; we do> > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good results> -> > > this> > > > a> > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT> alian> > to> > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But we> > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth or> the> > > > other> > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad in> this> > > > birth> > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for sure).> > > Actually> > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I do/did> > > something> > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's nature> and> > > my> > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am everywhere,> so> > > who> > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have to> > > correct> > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - possibly> > > then> > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> destruction> > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes sense and> > then> > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of events and> > the> > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from the> > chart> > > > make> > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the results of> my> > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have to> > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma acts.....!)> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > , "renunw"> renunw@> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > >> > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > > republic> > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed lakhs> > of> > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that> gods> > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > earthquakes,> > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > > weapons> > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties> akin> > > to> > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways."> > > > > >> > > > > > How true!> > > > > >> > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> innocent.....yet> > > no> > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in mass> > > > > destructions> > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> wrongful> > > > > action> > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > >> > > > > > blessings> > > > > >> > > > > > Renu> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ,> > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > >> > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > > insurance> > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that> floods,> > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities beyond> > human> > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who killed> > > > thousands> > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song on> > > > republic> > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed> lakhs> > > of> > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers that> > gods> > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too have> > > > weapons> > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar casualties> > akin> > > > to> > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different ways.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Anyone who does not believe in Karma, and is interested in replying my simple queries to Renuji, is welcome to do the same. But please remember to explain the disparities at time of child birth, and why some die young at age of 5 years and why some die at 10 or live a full age, when their present day actions may not be necessarily be the reasons for their untimely death. Also explain why some are born in cobblers family while others in landlords or Zamindars. Also explain why some are born crippled while others are born healthy. rgrds/bhaskar. , "Bhaskar" <rajiventerprises wrote:>> > Dear Bhartiji,> My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked, and take> it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your intelligence or> any chalenge. just normal arguments. // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE> SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.// If you dont accept the Karma theory> then how will you explain some children born with great physical defects> while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice . If one goes> with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the rapist> must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the girls> destiny to get raped. Is it not ? You say that one must go with> destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which one> should go ?> //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.// > where is it written that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? If> You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, then> please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at> birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who are> born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ?> //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. // You cannot say that all of us> say so. I dont say so. // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER> WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.// On what basis is Gods wish made seperately> for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for others> ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God> loves making one person born crippled or blind ? //SO KARMA HAS> NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.// then what is to do with destiny ?> how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it is> formed ?> //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]// It is not> easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that you are> extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones> destiny.> //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL> CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.// You mean God has done> Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is this> mathematics different for various people around us ?> // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE // One has to learn astrology> or other such sciences to know ones future. // I KNOW NO BODY CAN> CHANGE OUR DESTINY. // What You know may not be perfect or complete. > There are others also who know many more things. What about them ? What> about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that nobody> can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How they> have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their destinies ? For> how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did you> realise that one cannot change his destiny ? // WE HV BEEN SEND ON> THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, // What duties have been assigned to each of> us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler while> the other, a diamond merchant ? // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS> WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH> I.E DESTINY. // How can one say that we are going against His will ? > HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ? Destiny is the truth. then you mean> the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over and so> must the truth be ? What say ? best wishes and happy answering,> Bhaskar.> > > > > > > , "bharti_dc"> bharti_dc@ wrote:> >> > -DEAR RENU JI> >> > MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE.ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.> >> > COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.> > ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES.WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH> > IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR> > DESTINY.> > U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]> > HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL> > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.> >> > SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR> > DESTINY.WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR,AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT> > IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY.> >> > SO DISCUSSING WHY KARMA NOT REVEAL OUR LIFE ,,TO MY MINDIT IS> > AN ......QUESTION.> >> > -- In , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Renu ji,..> > > ==>> > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would> > Karma not> > > > have a place in astrology?> > > <==> > > * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature> > etc)> > > are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily> > reality> > > observed)> > > * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the> > > culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on> > > astrology.> > > * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven> > belief is> > > just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of> > > beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better> > observable,> > > and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth is> > > concerned.> > > * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a> > kind of> > > explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an> > > objective reality, even though they too can be considered as> > concepts> > > formulated by human mind.> > > ==>> > > > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate> > in> > > this> > > > physical and mental realm.> > > <==> > > Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate> > 10> > > niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He wan> > trying> > > to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something> > > inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does not> > make> > > that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might have> > known> > > that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation;> > certainly> > > he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications> > and> > > explanations as well.> > > Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides a> > > classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it does> > not> > > mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya> > > (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just classifications> > used for> > > clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for reality.> > > Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the reality> > that is> > > beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations using> > concepts> > > are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake> > them as> > > reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.> > >> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > > , "renunw" <renunw@>> > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > >> > > > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only> > after> > > > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic> > > astrology> > > > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own> > > > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using> > Karma> > > > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology> > erroniously> > > > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian -> > which> > > > many may not agree with."> > > >> > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would> > Karma not> > > > have a place in astrology?> > > >> > > > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified> > version> > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though> > not> > > > requeired"> > > >> > > > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living> > beings are> > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate> > in> > > this> > > > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the> > Buddha....if> > > you> > > > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But> > all> > > that> > > > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> > > >> > > > Hope this helps.> > > >> > > > blessings> > > >> > > > Renu> > > >> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreelid@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I'> > or 'me' or> > > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our> > ego.> > > > Once> > > > > we> > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The> > journey> > > > becomes> > > > > > tireless.> > > > > <==> > > > > Agree. > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to> > these> > > > > mass> > > > > > scale calamities.> > > > > <==> > > > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory.> > As> > > per> > > > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT> > explain the> > > > mass> > > > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal> > opinian - (it> > > > is> > > > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part> > of the> > > > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced> > to> > > > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed> > vedic> > > > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian> > astrology> > > is> > > > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based> > > explantion> > > > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not> > > used.> > > > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it.> > This> > > is> > > > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > If you want to know the source of my> > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are> > already> > > aware> > > > > of> > > > > > these rules > > > > > <==> > > > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I> > don't> > > > > know the source of such classification and giving importance> > to a> > > > number> > > > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your> > learning. I> > > > > would love know more about it.> > > > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and> > DOES> > > NOT> > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified> > version> > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation,> > though not> > > > > requeired.> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > , "renunw"> > renunw@> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not> > agree in> > > > > toto.> > > > > >> > > > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one> > and> > > the> > > > > > same). "> > > > > >> > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I'> > or 'me' or> > > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our> > ego.> > > > Once> > > > > we> > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The> > journey> > > > becomes> > > > > > tireless.> > > > > >> > > > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine> > the> > > > > > defenition of Karma."> > > > > >> > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to> > these> > > > > mass> > > > > > scale calamities.> > > > > >> > > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes> > > (niyamas)> > > > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable> > and> > > > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal> > > phenomena> > > > > of> > > > > > winds and rains.> > > > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic> > > order);> > > > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar> > cane> > > or> > > > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> > > > physical> > > > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g.,> > processes of> > > > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural> > phenomena> > > > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > > > > gravitation,> > > > > > etc. "> > > > > >> > > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be> > explained> > > > under> > > > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > > > >> > > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source> > of my> > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are> > already> > > aware> > > > > of> > > > > > these rules > > > > > >> > > > > > blessings> > > > > >> > > > > > Renu> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > > innocent.....yet> > > > > no> > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in> > mass> > > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> > > wrongful> > > > > > > action> > > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine> > the> > > > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that -> > of> > > > course> > > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far> > > events> > > > > are> > > > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who> > initiate the> > > > act> > > > > > who> > > > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well.> > (Please note> > > > > that> > > > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We> > do> > > > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects;> > we do> > > > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good> > results> > > -> > > > > this> > > > > > a> > > > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT> > > alian> > > > to> > > > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But> > we> > > > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth> > or> > > the> > > > > > other> > > > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad> > in> > > this> > > > > > birth> > > > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for> > sure).> > > > > Actually> > > > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I> > do/did> > > > > something> > > > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's> > nature> > > and> > > > > my> > > > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am> > everywhere,> > > so> > > > > who> > > > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have> > to> > > > > correct> > > > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned -> > possibly> > > > > then> > > > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> > > destruction> > > > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes> > sense and> > > > then> > > > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of> > events and> > > > the> > > > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from> > the> > > > chart> > > > > > make> > > > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the> > results of> > > my> > > > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have> > to> > > > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma> > acts.....!)> > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > >> > > > > > > , "renunw"> > > renunw@> > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song> > on> > > > > republic> > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed> > lakhs> > > > of> > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers> > that> > > gods> > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too> > have> > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar> > casualties> > > akin> > > > > to> > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different> > ways."> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > How true!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > > innocent.....yet> > > > > no> > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in> > mass> > > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> > > wrongful> > > > > > > action> > > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ,> > > > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > > > > insurance> > > > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that> > > floods,> > > > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities> > beyond> > > > human> > > > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who> > killed> > > > > > thousands> > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national> > song on> > > > > > republic> > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who> > swallowed> > > lakhs> > > > > of> > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers> > that> > > > gods> > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too> > have> > > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar> > casualties> > > > akin> > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different> > ways.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sreenadhji and Renuji, Namaste, Yes, we are responsible for our own karma. Recently I was in Orlando to present a paper at the WAVES conference. I liked the way Shri Rajivji (Shri Rajiv Malhotra) made a passing remark on the Karma theory and Bhakti. I cannot reproduce verbatim what he said but in essence he said that Bhakti may help us in getting the outcome of our Karma rescheduled (to our benefit). Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 7/28/08, renunw <renunw wrote: renunw <renunw Re: God's Missiles and Karma redifined Monday, July 28, 2008, 9:27 AM Dear Sreenadh ji, You have got me wrong. I neither said all divine/good is god nor that all bad is not god. I agree with Bhaskar ji when he says that god is not responsible for all calamities. At the same time I disagree with may be almost everyone here...that god is responsible for all good things in the world. I should be responsible for my own well being or my own destruction, and not anyone else. Mind is the forerunner of everything. It is our mind that we need to control so that we could accept everything with equanimity, whether good or bad. Returning to 'karma' theory...... . at the end even law of karma will surrender to natural laws. " God is the ultimate oneness - within and outside, everywhere " In this I feel there is some truth worthy of investigating through meditation.. ..thanks. blessings Renu blessings Renu ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > > Dear Renu ji, > ==> > > " It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the > mails > > coming in . Which is not the fact . " > > I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God > > is the responsible source for these calamities.. ..and if you may go > > through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it. > <== > I don't agree - if good is god, bad as well. If all divine is god, > all evil as well. The fact is that there is nothing good or bad, there > is nothing divine of evil - if looked from an objective perspective. > It is just the nature - nature of things, nature of beings, nature of > nature, nature of us. Why bring in God into all these, when nature > itself is is the explanation? Why bring God into all these if rhythem of > time/nature itself can be an explanation? If Karma theory was required > to explain all these - then why didn't the ancient Rishi horas mentioned > the same? This all leads to the conclusion that - Karma theory is NOT > required, and is NOT part of ancient indian astrology. There could be > much better logical explanations. God is beyond everything that is good > and bad; beyond all classifications, dualities. God is the ultimate > oneness - within and outside, everywhere.. .... If we takes the path of > classifications/ divisions - better not to bring in god and so called god > driven Karma theory in to picture. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Bhaskarji, Namaste, << /COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.// where is it written that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? If You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, then please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who are born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ? >> Yes, you are right. The natal horoscope says about the past karma and then one can have projection from that in this life but we must know that our karma of this life also comes in the picture. So we will not be incorrect if we say that the natal horoscope cannot say it all. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Bhaskar <rajiventerprises wrote: Bhaskar <rajiventerprises Re: God's Missiles and Karma redifined Monday, July 28, 2008, 9:34 AM Dear Bhartiji, My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked, and take it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your intelligence or any chalenge. just normal arguments. // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY] AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.// If you dont accept the Karma theory then how will you explain some children born with great physical defects while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice . If one goes with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the rapist must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the girls destiny to get raped. Is it not ? You say that one must go with destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which one should go ? //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.// where is it written that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? If You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, then please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who are born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ? //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. // You cannot say that all of us say so. I dont say so. // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.// On what basis is Gods wish made seperately for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for others ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God loves making one person born crippled or blind ? //SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.// then what is to do with destiny ? how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it is formed ? //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]// It is not easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that you are extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones destiny. //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY. // You mean God has done Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is this mathematics different for various people around us ? // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE // One has to learn astrology or other such sciences to know ones future. // I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR DESTINY. // What You know may not be perfect or complete. There are others also who know many more things. What about them ? What about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that nobody can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How they have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their destinies ? For how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did you realise that one cannot change his destiny ? // WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, // What duties have been assigned to each of us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler while the other, a diamond merchant ? // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY. // How can one say that we are going against His will ? HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ? Destiny is the truth. then you mean the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over and so must the truth be ? What say ? best wishes and happy answering, Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sunilji, Yes You are right. The natal chart cannot say it all because some Karmas of the present too would add to the ones in balance. The 3rd, 6th and the 10th houses are the areas where we are allowed some free will, but again this would be limited to the extent of results available from the other houses. The main Pharma is already set, and one can move only in or uptil the demarcatioon lines allowed. For instance one wishes to die and commits suicide, but will not get death, if it is not allowed then and he has to suffer more till this births bindings are completed. I would say that it can nearly say all for the normal common man. But for a person who is into continous introspection and yogic practises , a spiritually elevated person, the chart after a point, ceases to be . Which is why they say that saints have no past and sinners too have a future. Nevertheless one can fix any current hapenning with the configurations of the chart and prove that it was already written so, for the common not spiritually elevated ones. rgrds/bhaskar. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Bhaskarji,> > Namaste,> > << /COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.//> > where is it written> that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? If You mean what we> have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, then please tell us> why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at birth so that> they are born healthy and bad words for others who are born handicapped> ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ? >>> > Yes, you are right. The natal horoscope says about the past karma and> then one can have projection from that in this life but we must know> that our karma of this life also comes in the picture. So we will not> be incorrect if we say that the natal horoscope cannot say it all.> > > > Regards,> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Bhaskar rajiventerprises wrote:> Bhaskar rajiventerprises Re: God's Missiles and Karma redifined> > Monday, July 28, 2008, 9:34 AM> > Dear Bhartiji, > > My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked, and take it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your intelligence or any chalenge. just normal arguments.> > // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.//> > If you dont accept the Karma theory then how will you explain some children born with great physical defects while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice .> > If one goes with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the rapist must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the girls destiny to get raped. Is it not ?> > You say that one must go with destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which one should go ?> > //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.//> > where is it written that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? If You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, then please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who are born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ?> > //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. //> > You cannot say that all of us say so. I dont say so.> > // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.//> > On what basis is Gods wish made seperately for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for others ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God loves making one person born crippled or blind ?> > //SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.//> > then what is to do with destiny ? how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it is formed ?> > //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]//> > It is not easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that you are extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones destiny.> > //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY. //> > You mean God has done Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is this mathematics different for various people around us ?> > // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE //> > One has to learn astrology or other such sciences to know ones future.> > // I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR DESTINY. //> > What You know may not be perfect or complete. There are others also who know many more things. What about them ? What about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that nobody can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How they have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their destinies ? For how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did you realise that one cannot change his destiny ?> > // WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, //> > What duties have been assigned to each of us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler while the other, a diamond merchant ?> > // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY. //> > How can one say that we are going against His will ? > HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ?> Destiny is the truth. then you mean the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over and so must the truth be ? What say ?> > best wishes and happy answering,> Bhaskar.> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Dear Sunil ji, I agree in toto to whatever has been mentioned in your mail. Bhakti, nama japa, Proper kriya Yoga, Meditation, can certainly alleviate the purva paapa to a great extent. Except for the Dridha karma for which also a short suffering may be provided to the Gods favourite of this Birth. We and only we are responsible for our sufferings as well as most of the happiness we see, unles one gets the special grace of the Lord, which is for the rare Bhaktas and lovers of the lord. Bhagavad Gita Ch 3 shloka 9 Man is bound by his own action, except when it is performed for the sake of sacrifice. Bhagavad Gita Ch 5 shloka 14 God determines not the doership nor the doings of men, nor even their contact with the fruit of actions, but it is Nature alone that functions. Lord Krishna says the above. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji and Renuji,> > Namaste,> > Yes, we are responsible for our own karma. Recently I was in Orlando to present a paper at the WAVES conference. I liked the way Shri Rajivji (Shri Rajiv Malhotra) made a passing remark on the Karma theory and Bhakti. I cannot reproduce verbatim what he said but in essence he said that Bhakti may help us in getting the outcome of our Karma rescheduled (to our benefit).> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, renunw renunw wrote:> renunw renunw Re: God's Missiles and Karma redifined> > Monday, July 28, 2008, 9:27 AM> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > You have got me wrong. I neither said all divine/good is god nor that all bad is not god. I agree with Bhaskar ji when he says that god is not responsible for all calamities. At the same time I disagree with may be almost everyone here...that god is responsible for all good things in the world. I should be responsible for my own well being or my own destruction, and not anyone else. Mind is the forerunner of everything. It is our mind that we need to control so that we could accept everything with equanimity, whether good or bad. > Returning to 'karma' theory...... . at the end even law of karma will surrender to natural laws.> "God is the ultimate oneness - within and outside, everywhere"> In this I feel there is some truth worthy of investigating through meditation.. .thanks.> blessings> Renu> blessings> Renu> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" sreesog@ wrote:> >> >> > Dear Renu ji,> > ==>> > > "It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the> > mails> > > coming in . Which is not the fact ."> > > I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God> > > is the responsible source for these calamities.. ..and if you may go> > > through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it.> > <==> > I don't agree - if good is god, bad as well. If all divine is god,> > all evil as well. The fact is that there is nothing good or bad, there> > is nothing divine of evil - if looked from an objective perspective.> > It is just the nature - nature of things, nature of beings, nature of> > nature, nature of us. Why bring in God into all these, when nature> > itself is is the explanation? Why bring God into all these if rhythem of> > time/nature itself can be an explanation? If Karma theory was required> > to explain all these - then why didn't the ancient Rishi horas mentioned> > the same? This all leads to the conclusion that - Karma theory is NOT> > required, and is NOT part of ancient indian astrology. There could be> > much better logical explanations. God is beyond everything that is good> > and bad; beyond all classifications, dualities. God is the ultimate> > oneness - within and outside, everywhere.. .... If we takes the path of> > classifications/ divisions - better not to bring in god and so called god> > driven Karma theory in to picture.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 Namaste Bhaskarji: It is always a pleasure to read your posts. I am not writing this for the sake of argument. How can we separate destiny from Karma? Aren't they tightly interrelated? Isn't it like cause and effect? It is like trying to understand what came first, tree or the seed. I understood our experience here as a cumulative effect of both destiny and Karma and ofcourse the free will. For example in Mahabharata, despite the fact that they all knew what was going to happen none could avoid what was to happen. Finally Krishna explains the fate of Bhishma to Ganga as Niyati. That means niyati cannot be changed. The stories of people who escaped from mass calamities such as 911, World trade center or other accidents make me more believe in the destiny. Jaya , " Bhaskar " <rajiventerprises wrote: > > > Anyone who does not believe in Karma, and is interested in replying my > simple queries to Renuji, is welcome to do the same. But please > remember to explain the disparities at time of child birth, and why some > die young at age of 5 years and why some die at 10 or live a full age, > when their present day actions may not be necessarily be the reasons for > their untimely death. Also explain why some are born in cobblers family > while others in landlords or Zamindars. Also explain why some are born > crippled while others are born healthy. > > rgrds/bhaskar. > > > , " Bhaskar " > <rajiventerprises@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Bhartiji, > > My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked, and > take > > it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your intelligence > or > > any chalenge. just normal arguments. // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE > > SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY] > > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.// If you dont accept the Karma theory > > then how will you explain some children born with great physical > defects > > while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice . If one goes > > with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the > rapist > > must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the girls > > destiny to get raped. Is it not ? You say that one must go with > > destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which one > > should go ? > > //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.// > > where is it written that God writes the words at the time of Birth ? > If > > You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does so, > then > > please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some children at > > birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who are > > born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this discrimination ? > > //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR > > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. // You cannot say that all of us > > say so. I dont say so. // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER > > WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.// On what basis is Gods wish made seperately > > for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for > others > > ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God > > loves making one person born crippled or blind ? //SO KARMA HAS > > NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.// then what is to do with destiny ? > > how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it is > > formed ? > > //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]// It is not > > easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that you > are > > extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones > > destiny. > > //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL > > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.// You mean God has done > > Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is this > > mathematics different for various people around us ? > > // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE // One has to learn astrology > > or other such sciences to know ones future. // I KNOW NO BODY CAN > > CHANGE OUR DESTINY. // What You know may not be perfect or complete. > > There are others also who know many more things. What about them ? > What > > about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that nobody > > can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How they > > have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their destinies ? > For > > how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did you > > realise that one cannot change his destiny ? // WE HV BEEN SEND ON > > THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES > > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, // What duties have been assigned to each of > > us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler while > > the other, a diamond merchant ? // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS > > WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH > > I.E DESTINY. // How can one say that we are going against His will ? > > HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ? Destiny is the truth. then you mean > > the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over and so > > must the truth be ? What say ? best wishes and happy answering, > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " bharti_dc " > > bharti_dc@ wrote: > > > > > > -DEAR RENU JI > > > > > > MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE.ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY] > > > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY. > > > > > > COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH. > > > ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR > > > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES.WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH > > > IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR > > > DESTINY. > > > U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY] > > > HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL > > > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY. > > > > > > SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR > > > DESTINY.WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES > > > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR,AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT > > > IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY. > > > > > > SO DISCUSSING WHY KARMA NOT REVEAL OUR LIFE ,,TO MY MINDIT IS > > > AN ......QUESTION. > > > > > > -- In , " Sreenadh " > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Renu ji,.. > > > > ==> > > > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would > > > Karma not > > > > > have a place in astrology? > > > > <== > > > > * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature > > > etc) > > > > are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily > > > reality > > > > observed) > > > > * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the > > > > culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on > > > > astrology. > > > > * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven > > > belief is > > > > just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of > > > > beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better > > > observable, > > > > and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth > is > > > > concerned. > > > > * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a > > > kind of > > > > explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an > > > > objective reality, even though they too can be considered as > > > concepts > > > > formulated by human mind. > > > > ==> > > > > > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are > > > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate > > > in > > > > this > > > > > physical and mental realm. > > > > <== > > > > Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate > > > 10 > > > > niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He wan > > > trying > > > > to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something > > > > inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does not > > > make > > > > that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might have > > > known > > > > that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation; > > > certainly > > > > he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications > > > and > > > > explanations as well. > > > > Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides a > > > > classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it does > > > not > > > > mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya > > > > (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just classifications > > > used for > > > > clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for reality. > > > > Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the reality > > > that is > > > > beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations using > > > concepts > > > > are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake > > > them as > > > > reality or truth; especially in holistic approach. > > > > > > > > Love and regards, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > , " renunw " > <renunw@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > > > > > > > > > " Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only > > > after > > > > > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non- vedic > > > > astrology > > > > > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own > > > > > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using > > > Karma > > > > > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology > > > erroniously > > > > > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - > > > which > > > > > many may not agree with. " > > > > > > > > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would > > > Karma not > > > > > have a place in astrology? > > > > > > > > > > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES > NOT > > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified > > > version > > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though > > > not > > > > > requeired " > > > > > > > > > > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living > > > beings are > > > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate > > > in > > > > this > > > > > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the > > > Buddha....if > > > > you > > > > > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But > > > all > > > > that > > > > > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama. > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > blessings > > > > > > > > > > Renu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > > > sreelid@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Renu ji, > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' > > > or 'me' or > > > > > > > 'myself'. This " I " & 'mine " etc. concept is the root of our > > > ego. > > > > > Once > > > > > > we > > > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The > > > journey > > > > > becomes > > > > > > > tireless. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to > > > these > > > > > > mass > > > > > > > scale calamities. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. > > > As > > > > per > > > > > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT > > > explain the > > > > > mass > > > > > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal > > > opinian - (it > > > > > is > > > > > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part > > > of the > > > > > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced > > > to > > > > > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed > > > vedic > > > > > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian > > > astrology > > > > is > > > > > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based > > > > explantion > > > > > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and > not > > > > used. > > > > > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. > > > This > > > > is > > > > > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > If you want to know the source of my > > > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are > > > already > > > > aware > > > > > > of > > > > > > > these rules > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I > > > don't > > > > > > know the source of such classification and giving importance > > > to a > > > > > number > > > > > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your > > > learning. I > > > > > > would love know more about it. > > > > > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and > > > DOES > > > > NOT > > > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified > > > version > > > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, > > > though not > > > > > > requeired. > > > > > > Love and regards, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > , " renunw " > > > renunw@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not > > > agree in > > > > > > toto. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " (Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one > > > and > > > > the > > > > > > > same). " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' > > > or 'me' or > > > > > > > 'myself'. This " I " & 'mine " etc. concept is the root of our > > > ego. > > > > > Once > > > > > > we > > > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The > > > journey > > > > > becomes > > > > > > > tireless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine > > > the > > > > > > > defenition of Karma. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to > > > these > > > > > > mass > > > > > > > scale calamities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes > > > > (niyamas) > > > > > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable > > > and > > > > > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results. > > > > > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal > > > > phenomena > > > > > > of > > > > > > > winds and rains. > > > > > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic > > > > order); > > > > > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar > > > cane > > > > or > > > > > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the > > > > > physical > > > > > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order. > > > > > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., > > > processes of > > > > > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc. > > > > > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural > > > phenomena > > > > > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth, > > > > > > gravitation, > > > > > > > etc. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be > > > explained > > > > > under > > > > > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source > > > of my > > > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are > > > already > > > > aware > > > > > > of > > > > > > > these rules > > > > > > > > > > > > > > blessings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Renu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Renu ji, > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the > > > > innocent.....yet > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in > > > mass > > > > > > > > destructions > > > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same > > > > wrongful > > > > > > > > action > > > > > > > > > in a past birth? > > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine > > > the > > > > > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - > > > of > > > > > course > > > > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as > far > > > > events > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who > > > initiate the > > > > > act > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. > > > (Please note > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We > > > do > > > > > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; > > > we do > > > > > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good > > > results > > > > - > > > > > > this > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also > NOT > > > > alian > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But > > > we > > > > > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth > > > or > > > > the > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad > > > in > > > > this > > > > > > > birth > > > > > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for > > > sure). > > > > > > Actually > > > > > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I > > > do/did > > > > > > something > > > > > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's > > > nature > > > > and > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am > > > everywhere, > > > > so > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have > > > to > > > > > > correct > > > > > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - > > > possibly > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > only we will start understanding it. > > > > > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the > > > > destruction > > > > > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes > > > sense and > > > > > then > > > > > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it. > > > > > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of > > > events and > > > > > the > > > > > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from > > > the > > > > > chart > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the > > > results of > > > > my > > > > > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have > > > to > > > > > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma > > > acts.....!) > > > > > > > > Love and regards, > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In , " renunw " > > > > renunw@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " it means that it is god who killed thousands > > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song > > > on > > > > > > republic > > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed > > > lakhs > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers > > > that > > > > gods > > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of > > > > > > earthquakes, > > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too > > > have > > > > > > weapons > > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar > > > casualties > > > > akin > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different > > > ways. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How true! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the > > > > innocent.....yet > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in > > > mass > > > > > > > > destructions > > > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same > > > > wrongful > > > > > > > > action > > > > > > > > > in a past birth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > blessings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Renu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > " panditarjun2004 " > > > > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dear friends > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent > owned > > > > > > insurance > > > > > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that > > > > floods, > > > > > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities > > > beyond > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who > > > killed > > > > > > > thousands > > > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national > > > song on > > > > > > > republic > > > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who > > > swallowed > > > > lakhs > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers > > > that > > > > > gods > > > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of > > > > > > > earthquakes, > > > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too > > > have > > > > > > > weapons > > > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar > > > casualties > > > > > akin > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different > > > ways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings > > > > > > > > > > pandit arjun > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dear Sunil ji, No doubt we are the architects of our own karma. Yet...sometimes we become the victims of others karma too. Of course then one can say, even that occurrs due to some past karma of ours....which is quite possible. If we, the ordinary masses got to suffer the consequenses of mistakes by leaders, it may be that we are born in a particular country, under particular rulers due to our past bad karmas. Then again karma is not the only driving force in this world. It is only one aspect of the natural laws. Sure. Bhakti may purify one's mind, which would ultimately lead to self realization, thus opening the path to get released from one's karma. blessings Renu , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Sreenadhji and Renuji, > > Namaste, > > Yes, we are responsible for our own karma. Recently I was in Orlando to present a paper at the WAVES conference. I liked the way Shri Rajivji (Shri Rajiv Malhotra) made a passing remark on the Karma theory and Bhakti. I cannot reproduce verbatim what he said but in essence he said that Bhakti may help us in getting the outcome of our Karma rescheduled (to our benefit). > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Mon, 7/28/08, renunw <renunw wrote: > renunw <renunw > Re: God's Missiles and Karma redifined > > Monday, July 28, 2008, 9:27 AM > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > You have got me wrong. I neither said all divine/good is god nor that all bad is not god. I agree with Bhaskar ji when he says that god is not responsible for all calamities. At the same time I disagree with may be almost everyone here...that god is responsible for all good things in the world. I should be responsible for my own well being or my own destruction, and not anyone else. Mind is the forerunner of everything. It is our mind that we need to control so that we could accept everything with equanimity, whether good or bad. > Returning to 'karma' theory...... . at the end even law of karma will surrender to natural laws. > " God is the ultimate oneness - within and outside, everywhere " > In this I feel there is some truth worthy of investigating through meditation.. .thanks. > blessings > Renu > blessings > Renu > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Renu ji, > > ==> > > > " It looks like God is the responsible Source for this, as per the > > mails > > > coming in . Which is not the fact . " > > > I agree with you whole heartedly. I am the last person to say that God > > > is the responsible source for these calamities.. ..and if you may go > > > through my mail addressed to Sreenadh ji, you will notice it. > > <== > > I don't agree - if good is god, bad as well. If all divine is god, > > all evil as well. The fact is that there is nothing good or bad, there > > is nothing divine of evil - if looked from an objective perspective. > > It is just the nature - nature of things, nature of beings, nature of > > nature, nature of us. Why bring in God into all these, when nature > > itself is is the explanation? Why bring God into all these if rhythem of > > time/nature itself can be an explanation? If Karma theory was required > > to explain all these - then why didn't the ancient Rishi horas mentioned > > the same? This all leads to the conclusion that - Karma theory is NOT > > required, and is NOT part of ancient indian astrology. There could be > > much better logical explanations. God is beyond everything that is good > > and bad; beyond all classifications, dualities. God is the ultimate > > oneness - within and outside, everywhere.. .... If we takes the path of > > classifications/ divisions - better not to bring in god and so called god > > driven Karma theory in to picture. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dear Jayaji, Namaste, Destiny is like a Rain. And rain it will certainly. What one needs is a umbrella at the time it rains, to avoid getting wet. That is how one can change his detiny. He cannot avoid rains but can only shield himself. First of all destiny can be good and bad both. No one would like to change good destiny. For a normal person to change his bad destiny, would not be possible. For a spiritually elevated person to change it to a certain level, would be posible. For a little lower level spiritually elevated person like astrologers, it is more helpful to know the weaknesses in the chart, and avoid and avert the dangers or minimise the same. For the common man too if he meets a good astrologer who tells him the voids in his chart and explains the remedial measures, and the man does put in strenous efforts to minimise those voids, then too the destiny which can be dangerous, can be brought to a less dismal state. Examples - 1) The Lagna containing fiery Planets, fiery influences - This man can be told to eat less of fried stuff etc. as he is liable to develiop Pitta. He can be advised not to indulge in verbal brawls with anyone, as it can lead to a physical fight. 2) A person with the 8th house activated, and Rahu in 12th may be told not to do any illegal work or else he may land in jail. 3) A person with weak liver may be told o cut down his daily intake of hard drinks. 4) A person with an afflicted 9th house and Sun both may be told to go easy with his father and not go against him. 5) A person with an afflicted Venus and 7th house may be told to co-operate with his wife and not voluntarily fight or create problems in the house. The above are the few ways where astrology helps. If there were no possibility of being able to make some changes in ones destiny, then Parashar rishi would not have given the remedial measures at the end of each Chapter in his Magnum Opus. Personal efforts to avoid the weakness in ones charts, and the power of mantra japa, helps one to provide an umbrella over the head when it rains. Let me also give one more example which I wish to. A person who is running throughout 6th and 12th house activated in his chart would never have a happy marriage . But if he is made to marry a girl who has the 2nd and the 7th houses running, then this man would be able to stay put in his marriage and see some happiness on and off in his married Life. Otherwise if not married to such a girl, then the neighbours would witness a Mahabharata everyday, and some day the noise of the Bomb too would be heard, and the wife would leave away for good. So i repeat, if one cannot change his destiny, one can at least shield himself from the malefic effects, which is as good as changing the destiny. Thus Naveen karma can help in alleviating the bad effects of Destiny or minimising the same . Astrology is a great way to know about ones weak sectors, and a conscious effort must be made at least by astrologers to avoid and strengthen those areas in their own charts which may lead to the culmination of a bad destiny. About the example You gave of the Mahabharata, they all knew that staying in the opposite camp of Krishna, their fate is going to be single- Death, but those days were the times when one would rather die doing is duty, then look for personal gains. It was not that niyati could not be changed by Krishna. He did cause sunset early one day, and many such other occurences with his maya. Niyati of course cannt be changed by ordinary men , which is why I said that rain it must, we just must avoid getting wet. Best wishes, bhaskar. , "revati_n27" <revati_n27 wrote:>> Namaste Bhaskarji:> > It is always a pleasure to read your posts. I am not writing this > for the sake of argument. > > How can we separate destiny from Karma? Aren't they tightly > interrelated? Isn't it like cause and effect? It is like trying to > understand what came first, tree or the seed. I understood our > experience here as a cumulative effect of both destiny and Karma and > ofcourse the free will. > > For example in Mahabharata, despite the fact that they all knew what > was going to happen none could avoid what was to happen. Finally > Krishna explains the fate of Bhishma to Ganga as Niyati. That means > niyati cannot be changed. > > The stories of people who escaped from mass calamities such as 911, > World trade center or other accidents make me more believe in the > destiny. > > Jaya> > > , "Bhaskar" > rajiventerprises@ wrote:> >> > > > Anyone who does not believe in Karma, and is interested in replying > my> > simple queries to Renuji, is welcome to do the same. But please> > remember to explain the disparities at time of child birth, and why > some> > die young at age of 5 years and why some die at 10 or live a full > age,> > when their present day actions may not be necessarily be the > reasons for> > their untimely death. Also explain why some are born in cobblers > family> > while others in landlords or Zamindars. Also explain why some are > born> > crippled while others are born healthy.> > > > rgrds/bhaskar.> > > > > > , "Bhaskar"> > <rajiventerprises@> wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Bhartiji,> > > My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked, > and> > take> > > it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your > intelligence> > or> > > any chalenge. just normal arguments. // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE> > > SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> > > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.// If you dont accept the Karma > theory> > > then how will you explain some children born with great physical> > defects> > > while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice . If one > goes> > > with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the> > rapist> > > must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the > girls> > > destiny to get raped. Is it not ? You say that one must go with> > > destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which > one> > > should go ?> > > //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF > BIRTH.//> > > where is it written that God writes the words at the time of > Birth ?> > If> > > You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does > so,> > then> > > please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some > children at> > > birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who > are> > > born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this > discrimination ?> > > //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> > > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. // You cannot say that all > of us> > > say so. I dont say so. // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER> > > WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.// On what basis is Gods wish made > seperately> > > for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for> > others> > > ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God> > > loves making one person born crippled or blind ? //SO KARMA HAS> > > NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.// then what is to do with > destiny ?> > > how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it > is> > > formed ?> > > //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]// It is not> > > easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that > you> > are> > > extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones> > > destiny.> > > //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW > IT.ALL> > > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.// You mean God has done> > > Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is > this> > > mathematics different for various people around us ?> > > // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE // One has to learn > astrology> > > or other such sciences to know ones future. // I KNOW NO BODY CAN> > > CHANGE OUR DESTINY. // What You know may not be perfect or > complete.> > > There are others also who know many more things. What about them ?> > What> > > about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that > nobody> > > can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How > they> > > have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their > destinies ?> > For> > > how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did > you> > > realise that one cannot change his destiny ? // WE HV BEEN SEND ON> > > THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> > > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, // What duties have been assigned to > each of> > > us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler > while> > > the other, a diamond merchant ? // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS> > > WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE > TRUTH> > > I.E DESTINY. // How can one say that we are going against His > will ?> > > HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ? Destiny is the truth. then you > mean> > > the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over > and so> > > must the truth be ? What say ? best wishes and happy answering,> > > Bhaskar.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , "bharti_dc"> > > bharti_dc@ wrote:> > > >> > > > -DEAR RENU JI> > > >> > > > MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE.ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY > [bHAGAY]> > > > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.> > > >> > > > COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF > BIRTH.> > > > ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> > > > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES.WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S > WISH> > > > IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH > OUR> > > > DESTINY.> > > > U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]> > > > HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW > IT.ALL> > > > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.> > > >> > > > SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE > OUR> > > > DESTINY.WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> > > > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR,AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS > WISH.WHETHER IT> > > > IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E > DESTINY.> > > >> > > > SO DISCUSSING WHY KARMA NOT REVEAL OUR LIFE ,,TO MY MINDIT IS> > > > AN ......QUESTION.> > > >> > > > -- In , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Renu ji,..> > > > > ==>> > > > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would> > > > Karma not> > > > > > have a place in astrology?> > > > > <==> > > > > * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature> > > > etc)> > > > > are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily> > > > reality> > > > > observed)> > > > > * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the> > > > > culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while > speaking on> > > > > astrology.> > > > > * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven> > > > belief is> > > > > just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of> > > > > beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better> > > > observable,> > > > > and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on > earth> > is> > > > > concerned.> > > > > * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a> > > > kind of> > > > > explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near > to an> > > > > objective reality, even though they too can be considered as> > > > concepts> > > > > formulated by human mind.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings > are> > > > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which > operate> > > > in> > > > > this> > > > > > physical and mental realm.> > > > > <==> > > > > Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate> > > > 10> > > > > niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He > wan> > > > trying> > > > > to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something> > > > > inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does > not> > > > make> > > > > that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might > have> > > > known> > > > > that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation;> > > > certainly> > > > > he must have been aware of other possibilities of > classifications> > > > and> > > > > explanations as well.> > > > > Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides > a> > > > > classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it > does> > > > not> > > > > mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya> > > > > (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just > classifications> > > > used for> > > > > clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for > reality.> > > > > Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the > reality> > > > that is> > > > > beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations > using> > > > concepts> > > > > are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake> > > > them as> > > > > reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.> > > > >> > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > , "renunw"> > <renunw@>> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > >> > > > > > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology > only> > > > after> > > > > > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-> vedic> > > > > astrology> > > > > > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its > own> > > > > > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation > using> > > > Karma> > > > > > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology> > > > erroniously> > > > > > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal > opinian -> > > > which> > > > > > many may not agree with."> > > > > >> > > > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would> > > > Karma not> > > > > > have a place in astrology?> > > > > >> > > > > > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and > DOES> > NOT> > > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified> > > > version> > > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, > though> > > > not> > > > > > requeired"> > > > > >> > > > > > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living> > > > beings are> > > > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which > operate> > > > in> > > > > this> > > > > > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the> > > > Buddha....if> > > > > you> > > > > > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. > But> > > > all> > > > > that> > > > > > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> > > > > >> > > > > > Hope this helps.> > > > > >> > > > > > blessings> > > > > >> > > > > > Renu> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > > sreelid@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I'> > > > or 'me' or> > > > > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of > our> > > > ego.> > > > > > Once> > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The> > > > journey> > > > > > becomes> > > > > > > > tireless.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only > answer to> > > > these> > > > > > > mass> > > > > > > > scale calamities.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is > necessory.> > > > As> > > > > per> > > > > > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT> > > > explain the> > > > > > mass> > > > > > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal> > > > opinian - (it> > > > > > is> > > > > > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was > part> > > > of the> > > > > > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was > introduced> > > > to> > > > > > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is > aborrowed> > > > vedic> > > > > > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian> > > > astrology> > > > > is> > > > > > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based> > > > > explantion> > > > > > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required > and> > not> > > > > used.> > > > > > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory > into it.> > > > This> > > > > is> > > > > > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > If you want to know the source of my> > > > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are> > > > already> > > > > aware> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > these rules > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those > rules I> > > > don't> > > > > > > know the source of such classification and giving > importance> > > > to a> > > > > > number> > > > > > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your> > > > learning. I> > > > > > > would love know more about it.> > > > > > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory > and> > > > DOES> > > > > NOT> > > > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a > modified> > > > version> > > > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation,> > > > though not> > > > > > > requeired.> > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > >> > > > > > > , "renunw"> > > > renunw@> > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not> > > > agree in> > > > > > > toto.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, > one> > > > and> > > > > the> > > > > > > > same). "> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I'> > > > or 'me' or> > > > > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of > our> > > > ego.> > > > > > Once> > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The> > > > journey> > > > > > becomes> > > > > > > > tireless.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we > redefine> > > > the> > > > > > > > defenition of Karma."> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only > answer to> > > > these> > > > > > > mass> > > > > > > > scale calamities.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or > processes> > > > > (niyamas)> > > > > > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., > desirable> > > > and> > > > > > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad > results.> > > > > > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., > seasonal> > > > > phenomena> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > winds and rains.> > > > > > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical > organic> > > > > order);> > > > > > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from > sugar> > > > cane> > > > > or> > > > > > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes > and the> > > > > > physical> > > > > > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > > > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g.,> > > > processes of> > > > > > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > > > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural> > > > phenomena> > > > > > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last > birth,> > > > > > > gravitation,> > > > > > > > etc. "> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be> > > > explained> > > > > > under> > > > > > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the > source> > > > of my> > > > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are> > > > already> > > > > aware> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > these rules > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > > > > innocent.....yet> > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but > in> > > > mass> > > > > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the > same> > > > > wrongful> > > > > > > > > action> > > > > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we > redefine> > > > the> > > > > > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is > that -> > > > of> > > > > > course> > > > > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but > as> > far> > > > > events> > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who> > > > initiate the> > > > > > act> > > > > > > > who> > > > > > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well.> > > > (Please note> > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the > same). We> > > > do> > > > > > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad > effects;> > > > we do> > > > > > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the > good> > > > results> > > > > -> > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is > also> > NOT> > > > > alian> > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the > same! But> > > > we> > > > > > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this > birth> > > > or> > > > > the> > > > > > > > other> > > > > > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something > bad> > > > in> > > > > this> > > > > > > > birth> > > > > > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for> > > > sure).> > > > > > > Actually> > > > > > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I> > > > do/did> > > > > > > something> > > > > > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both > nature's> > > > nature> > > > > and> > > > > > > my> > > > > > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am> > > > everywhere,> > > > > so> > > > > > > who> > > > > > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may > have> > > > to> > > > > > > correct> > > > > > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is > concerned -> > > > possibly> > > > > > > then> > > > > > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> > > > > destruction> > > > > > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes> > > > sense and> > > > > > then> > > > > > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of> > > > events and> > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer > from> > > > the> > > > > > chart> > > > > > > > make> > > > > > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the> > > > results of> > > > > my> > > > > > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will > have> > > > to> > > > > > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma> > > > acts.....!)> > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > , "renunw"> > > > > renunw@> > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national > song> > > > on> > > > > > > republic> > > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who > swallowed> > > > lakhs> > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it > infers> > > > that> > > > > gods> > > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form > of> > > > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists > too> > > > have> > > > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar> > > > casualties> > > > > akin> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different> > > > ways."> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > How true!> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > > > > innocent.....yet> > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but > in> > > > mass> > > > > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the > same> > > > > wrongful> > > > > > > > > action> > > > > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ,> > > > > > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent> > owned> > > > > > > insurance> > > > > > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions > that> > > > > floods,> > > > > > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural > calamities> > > > beyond> > > > > > human> > > > > > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god > who> > > > killed> > > > > > > > thousands> > > > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national> > > > song on> > > > > > > > republic> > > > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who> > > > swallowed> > > > > lakhs> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it > infers> > > > that> > > > > > gods> > > > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the > form of> > > > > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or > terrorists too> > > > have> > > > > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar> > > > casualties> > > > > > akin> > > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own > different> > > > ways.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dear Bharti, Please use small letters mails. As per net etiquette - * Use of full Capital letters in mails is equivalent to speaking in loud voice - similar to yelling, scolding, abusing and so on. It is considered as a symbol of indecency. So I request you to use normal small letters in mails. Use of lower case letters makes the mails more readable as well. Hope you see the point, and will start using lower case letters in mails. Note: As moderators we are even thinking of putting a policy of *not approving* mails written in full upper case letters. The use of full uppercase letters indicate that the individual in question is either unaware of net/email etiquette or that he is an indecent individual who don't want to follow the social standards and not bothered about what others will think. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "bharti_dc" <bharti_dc wrote:>> -DEAR RENU JI > > MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE.ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.> > COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF BIRTH.> ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES.WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH > IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR > DESTINY.> U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]> HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW IT.ALL > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.> > SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE OUR > DESTINY.WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR,AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS WISH.WHETHER IT > IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E DESTINY.> > SO DISCUSSING WHY KARMA NOT REVEAL OUR LIFE ,,TO MY MINDIT IS > AN ......QUESTION.> > -- In , "Sreenadh" > sreesog@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear Renu ji,..> > ==>> > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would > Karma not> > > have a place in astrology?> > <==> > * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature > etc)> > are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily > reality> > observed)> > * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the> > culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while speaking on> > astrology.> > * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven > belief is> > just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of> > beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better > observable,> > and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on earth is> > concerned.> > * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a > kind of> > explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near to an> > objective reality, even though they too can be considered as > concepts> > formulated by human mind.> > ==>> > > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings are> > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate > in> > this> > > physical and mental realm.> > <==> > Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate > 10> > niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He wan > trying> > to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something> > inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does not > make> > that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might have > known> > that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation; > certainly> > he must have been aware of other possibilities of classifications > and> > explanations as well.> > Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides a> > classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it does > not> > mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya> > (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just classifications > used for> > clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for reality.> > Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the reality > that is> > beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations using > concepts> > are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake > them as> > reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.> > > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > , "renunw" <renunw@>> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > >> > > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology only > after> > > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-vedic> > astrology> > > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its own> > > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation using > Karma> > > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology > erroniously> > > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal opinian - > which> > > many may not agree with."> > >> > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would > Karma not> > > have a place in astrology?> > >> > > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and DOES NOT> > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified > version> > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, though > not> > > requeired"> > >> > > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living > beings are> > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which operate > in> > this> > > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the > Buddha....if> > you> > > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them. But > all> > that> > > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> > >> > > Hope this helps.> > >> > > blessings> > >> > > Renu> > >> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreelid@ wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > ==>> > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' > or 'me' or> > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our > ego.> > > Once> > > > we> > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The > journey> > > becomes> > > > > tireless.> > > > <==> > > > Agree. > > > > ==>> > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to > these> > > > mass> > > > > scale calamities.> > > > <==> > > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is necessory. > As> > per> > > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT > explain the> > > mass> > > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal > opinian - (it> > > is> > > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was part > of the> > > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was introduced > to> > > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is aborrowed > vedic> > > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian > astrology> > is> > > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based> > explantion> > > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required and not> > used.> > > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory into it. > This> > is> > > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > > > ==>> > > > > If you want to know the source of my> > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are > already> > aware> > > > of> > > > > these rules > > > > <==> > > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those rules I > don't> > > > know the source of such classification and giving importance > to a> > > number> > > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your > learning. I> > > > would love know more about it.> > > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and > DOES> > NOT> > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified > version> > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation, > though not> > > > requeired.> > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > , "renunw" > renunw@> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > >> > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not > agree in> > > > toto.> > > > >> > > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one > and> > the> > > > > same). "> > > > >> > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I' > or 'me' or> > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of our > ego.> > > Once> > > > we> > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The > journey> > > becomes> > > > > tireless.> > > > >> > > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine > the> > > > > defenition of Karma."> > > > >> > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only answer to > these> > > > mass> > > > > scale calamities.> > > > >> > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or processes> > (niyamas)> > > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g., desirable > and> > > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results.> > > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g., seasonal> > phenomena> > > > of> > > > > winds and rains.> > > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical organic> > order);> > > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar > cane> > or> > > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes and the> > > physical> > > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g., > processes of> > > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural > phenomena> > > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last birth,> > > > gravitation,> > > > > etc. "> > > > >> > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be > explained> > > under> > > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > > >> > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the source > of my> > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are > already> > aware> > > > of> > > > > these rules > > > > >> > > > > blessings> > > > >> > > > > Renu> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > innocent.....yet> > > > no> > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in > mass> > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> > wrongful> > > > > > action> > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > <==> > > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we redefine > the> > > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is that - > of> > > course> > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but as far> > events> > > > are> > > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who > initiate the> > > act> > > > > who> > > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well. > (Please note> > > > that> > > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the same). We > do> > > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad effects; > we do> > > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the good > results> > -> > > > this> > > > > a> > > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is also NOT> > alian> > > to> > > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the same! But > we> > > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this birth > or> > the> > > > > other> > > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something bad > in> > this> > > > > birth> > > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for > sure).> > > > Actually> > > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I > do/did> > > > something> > > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both nature's > nature> > and> > > > my> > > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am > everywhere,> > so> > > > who> > > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may have > to> > > > correct> > > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is concerned - > possibly> > > > then> > > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> > destruction> > > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes > sense and> > > then> > > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of > events and> > > the> > > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer from > the> > > chart> > > > > make> > > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the > results of> > my> > > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will have > to> > > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma > acts.....!)> > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > > , "renunw"> > renunw@> > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national song > on> > > > republic> > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who swallowed > lakhs> > > of> > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers > that> > gods> > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too > have> > > > weapons> > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar > casualties> > akin> > > > to> > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different > ways."> > > > > > >> > > > > > > How true!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > innocent.....yet> > > > no> > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but in > mass> > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the same> > wrongful> > > > > > action> > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ,> > > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent owned> > > > insurance> > > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions that> > floods,> > > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural calamities > beyond> > > human> > > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god who > killed> > > > > thousands> > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national > song on> > > > > republic> > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who > swallowed> > lakhs> > > > of> > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it infers > that> > > gods> > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form of> > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists too > have> > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar > casualties> > > akin> > > > > to> > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different > ways.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dear Bhaskar ji, "rain it must, we just must avoid getting wet. " Short and sweet...and of course the truth. blessings Renu , "Bhaskar" <rajiventerprises wrote:>> Dear Jayaji,> > Namaste,> > Destiny is like a Rain. And rain it will certainly. What one needs is a> umbrella at the time it rains, to avoid getting wet. That is how one> can change his detiny. He cannot avoid rains but can only shield> himself.> > First of all destiny can be good and bad both. No one would like to> change good destiny. For a normal person to change his bad destiny,> would not be possible. For a spiritually elevated person to change it to> a certain level, would be posible. For a little lower level spiritually> elevated person like astrologers, it is more helpful to know the> weaknesses in the chart, and avoid and avert the dangers or minimise the> same. For the common man too if he meets a good astrologer who tells him> the voids in his chart and explains the remedial measures, and the man> does put in strenous efforts to minimise those voids, then too the> destiny which can be dangerous, can be brought to a less dismal state.> > Examples -> > 1) The Lagna containing fiery Planets, fiery influences - This man can> be told to eat less of fried stuff etc. as he is liable to develiop> Pitta. He can be advised not to indulge in verbal brawls with anyone,> as it can lead to a physical fight.> > 2) A person with the 8th house activated, and Rahu in 12th may be told> not to do any illegal work or else he may land in jail.> > 3) A person with weak liver may be told o cut down his daily intake of> hard drinks.> > 4) A person with an afflicted 9th house and Sun both may be told to go> easy with his father and not go against him.> > 5) A person with an afflicted Venus and 7th house may be told to> co-operate with his wife and not voluntarily fight or create problems in> the house.> > The above are the few ways where astrology helps. If there were no> possibility of being able to make some changes in ones destiny, then> Parashar rishi would not have given the remedial measures at the end of> each Chapter in his Magnum Opus.> > Personal efforts to avoid the weakness in ones charts, and the power of> mantra japa, helps one to provide an umbrella over the head when it> rains.> > Let me also give one more example which I wish to. A person who is> running throughout 6th and 12th house activated in his chart would never> have a happy marriage . But if he is made to marry a girl who has the> 2nd and the 7th houses running, then this man would be able to stay put> in his marriage and see some happiness on and off in his married Life.> Otherwise if not married to such a girl, then the neighbours would> witness a Mahabharata everyday, and some day the noise of the Bomb too> would be heard, and the wife would leave away for good.> > So i repeat, if one cannot change his destiny, one can at least shield> himself from the malefic effects, which is as good as changing the> destiny. Thus Naveen karma can help in alleviating the bad effects of> Destiny or minimising the same .> > Astrology is a great way to know about ones weak sectors, and a> conscious effort must be made at least by astrologers to avoid and> strengthen those areas in their own charts which may lead to the> culmination of a bad destiny.> > About the example You gave of the Mahabharata, they all knew that> staying in the opposite camp of Krishna, their fate is going to be> single- Death, but those days were the times when one would rather die> doing is duty, then look for personal gains. It was not that niyati> could not be changed by Krishna. He did cause sunset early one day, and> many such other occurences with his maya. Niyati of course cannt be> changed by ordinary men , which is why I said that rain it must, we just> must avoid getting wet.> > Best wishes,> bhaskar.> > > > > > > , "revati_n27"> revati_n27@ wrote:> >> > Namaste Bhaskarji:> >> > It is always a pleasure to read your posts. I am not writing this> > for the sake of argument.> >> > How can we separate destiny from Karma? Aren't they tightly> > interrelated? Isn't it like cause and effect? It is like trying to> > understand what came first, tree or the seed. I understood our> > experience here as a cumulative effect of both destiny and Karma and> > ofcourse the free will.> >> > For example in Mahabharata, despite the fact that they all knew what> > was going to happen none could avoid what was to happen. Finally> > Krishna explains the fate of Bhishma to Ganga as Niyati. That means> > niyati cannot be changed.> >> > The stories of people who escaped from mass calamities such as 911,> > World trade center or other accidents make me more believe in the> > destiny.> >> > Jaya> >> >> > , "Bhaskar"> > rajiventerprises@ wrote:> > >> > >> > > Anyone who does not believe in Karma, and is interested in replying> > my> > > simple queries to Renuji, is welcome to do the same. But please> > > remember to explain the disparities at time of child birth, and why> > some> > > die young at age of 5 years and why some die at 10 or live a full> > age,> > > when their present day actions may not be necessarily be the> > reasons for> > > their untimely death. Also explain why some are born in cobblers> > family> > > while others in landlords or Zamindars. Also explain why some are> > born> > > crippled while others are born healthy.> > >> > > rgrds/bhaskar.> > >> > >> > > , "Bhaskar"> > > <rajiventerprises@> wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Bhartiji,> > > > My replies to Your comments. Please answer the questions asked,> > and> > > take> > > > it as a enjoyable experience and not as a threat to your> > intelligence> > > or> > > > any chalenge. just normal arguments. // MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE. ONE> > > > SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY [bHAGAY]> > > > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.// If you dont accept the Karma> > theory> > > > then how will you explain some children born with great physical> > > defects> > > > while others normal ? Because God will not do injustice . If one> > goes> > > > with destiny and not with Karma, then a girl who gets raped , the> > > rapist> > > > must be left free and not sent to jail, because it was in the> > girls> > > > destiny to get raped. Is it not ? You say that one must go with> > > > destiny, then please say how is this destiny formed, with which> > one> > > > should go ?> > > > //COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF> > BIRTH.//> > > > where is it written that God writes the words at the time of> > Birth ?> > > If> > > > You mean what we have heard since childhood, that Brahmaji does> > so,> > > then> > > > please tell us why does Brahmaji write good words for some> > children at> > > > birth so that they are born healthy and bad words for others who> > are> > > > born handicapped ? On what basis does he make this> > discrimination ?> > > > //ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> > > > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES. // You cannot say that all> > of us> > > > say so. I dont say so. // WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S WISH IN OTHER> > > > WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.// On what basis is Gods wish made> > seperately> > > > for one who gets benefic results all his Life and vice versa for> > > others> > > > ? You mean gods wish is destiny, then do you mean to say that God> > > > loves making one person born crippled or blind ? //SO KARMA HAS> > > > NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DESTINY.// then what is to do with> > destiny ?> > > > how would you define Destiny ? Or explain it ? Or tell us how it> > is> > > > formed ?> > > > //U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]// It is not> > > > easy for normal persons to change destiny. If you can prove that> > you> > > are> > > > extraordinary person, then it can be explained how to change ones> > > > destiny.> > > > //HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW> > IT.ALL> > > > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.// You mean God has done> > > > Mathematics when he has written our destinies ? If so then why is> > this> > > > mathematics different for various people around us ?> > > > // SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE // One has to learn> > astrology> > > > or other such sciences to know ones future. // I KNOW NO BODY CAN> > > > CHANGE OUR DESTINY. // What You know may not be perfect or> > complete.> > > > There are others also who know many more things. What about them ?> > > What> > > > about the knowledge that they know ? And how can You say that> > nobody> > > > can change our destiny ? How many have tried in your circle ? How> > they> > > > have tried ? What was the approach taken to change their> > destinies ?> > > For> > > > how much time period was this approach done ? At what point did> > you> > > > realise that one cannot change his destiny ? // WE HV BEEN SEND ON> > > > THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> > > > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR, // What duties have been assigned to> > each of> > > > us and why ? Why is one person assigned duty to become a cobbler> > while> > > > the other, a diamond merchant ? // AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS> > > > WISH.WHETHER IT IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE> > TRUTH> > > > I.E DESTINY. // How can one say that we are going against His> > will ?> > > > HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS HIS WILL ? Destiny is the truth. then you> > mean> > > > the truth is finished when one dies ? since the destiny is over> > and so> > > > must the truth be ? What say ? best wishes and happy answering,> > > > Bhaskar.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > , "bharti_dc"> > > > bharti_dc@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > -DEAR RENU JI> > > > >> > > > > MY BELIEF IS SIMPLE.ONE SHOULD ALWAYS GO WITH THE DESTINY> > [bHAGAY]> > > > > AND NOT WITH THE KARMA THEORY.> > > > >> > > > > COZ U CANNOT CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD WRITTEN AT THE TIME OF> > BIRTH.> > > > > ALL OF US BELIEVE THAT WHAT SO EVER HAPPENS ON EARTH AND IN OUR> > > > > LIVES IS THE RESULT OF GOD'S WISHES.WE CANNOT GO AGAINST GOD'S> > WISH> > > > > IN OTHER WORDS AGAINST DESTINY.SO KARMA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH> > OUR> > > > > DESTINY.> > > > > U TELL ME THE WAY HOW TO CHANGE OUR DESTINY [bHAGAY]> > > > > HERE WE ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH OUR DESTINY AND HOW TO KNOW> > IT.ALL> > > > > CALCULATIONS ARE DONE MATHMETICALLY.> > > > >> > > > > SO TELL ME THE WAY TO KNOW THE FUTURE I KNOW NO BODY CAN CHANGE> > OUR> > > > > DESTINY.WE HV BEEN SEND ON THIS EARTH TO PERFORM CERTAIN DUTIES> > > > > ASSIGNED BY OUR CREATOR,AND WE CANNOT GO AGAINST HIS> > WISH.WHETHER IT> > > > > IS A CASE OF BIRTH OR DEATH WE HV TO REALISE THE TRUTH I.E> > DESTINY.> > > > >> > > > > SO DISCUSSING WHY KARMA NOT REVEAL OUR LIFE ,,TO MY MINDIT IS> > > > > AN ......QUESTION.> > > > >> > > > > -- In , "Sreenadh"> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Renu ji,..> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would> > > > > Karma not> > > > > > > have a place in astrology?> > > > > > <==> > > > > > * Because - many alternate explanations (based on time, nature> > > > > etc)> > > > > > are possible. (They are more in tune with astrology, and daily> > > > > reality> > > > > > observed)> > > > > > * Because - ancient Rishi Horas DOES NOT mention Karma as the> > > > > > culprit, and does not even mentions this theory while> > speaking on> > > > > > astrology.> > > > > > * Because - Karma theory CANNOT be proved, and an unproven> > > > > belief is> > > > > > just a belief hangin in mid air. Time and Nature of> > > > > > beings/things/nature are better explanations and are better> > > > > observable,> > > > > > and seems more logical and factual as far as daily life on> > earth> > > is> > > > > > concerned.> > > > > > * Karma is just a concept created by human mind to provide a> > > > > kind of> > > > > > explanation; But Time and Nature are more objective and near> > to an> > > > > > objective reality, even though they too can be considered as> > > > > concepts> > > > > > formulated by human mind.> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living beings> > are> > > > > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which> > operate> > > > > in> > > > > > this> > > > > > > physical and mental realm.> > > > > > <==> > > > > > Buddha was absolutely right. But instead of 5 we can formulate> > > > > 10> > > > > > niyamas well. It is just a kind of mental classification. He> > wan> > > > > trying> > > > > > to explain something - to hold in hand, to explain something> > > > > > inexplicable through a kind of classification. But that does> > not> > > > > make> > > > > > that explanation unbreakable of ultimate. Even Buddha might> > have> > > > > known> > > > > > that it is just a kind of classification, just an explanation;> > > > > certainly> > > > > > he must have been aware of other possibilities of> > classifications> > > > > and> > > > > > explanations as well.> > > > > > Put in astrological terms - If someone speaks about (provides> > a> > > > > > classification such as) Oja-Ugma (Male-Female) for signs it> > does> > > > > not> > > > > > mean that signs can not be classified as Chara-Stira-Ubhaya> > > > > > (Movable-Fixed-Mixed). Classifications are just> > classifications> > > > > used for> > > > > > clarity. Please don't stick to them and mistake them for> > reality.> > > > > > Classifications and explanations are tools to grasp the> > reality> > > > > that is> > > > > > beyond all explanations. Classifications and explanations> > using> > > > > concepts> > > > > > are just an effort to explain the inexplicable - don't mistake> > > > > them as> > > > > > reality or truth; especially in holistic approach.> > > > > >> > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > , "renunw"> > > <renunw@>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > "Karma theory was introduced to Ancient Indian Astrology> > only> > > > > after> > > > > > > Mihira - it is aborrowed vedic concept adopted into non-> > vedic> > > > > > astrology> > > > > > > as far as indian astrology is concerned. Astrology has its> > own> > > > > > > time/nature/rhythem based explantion and the explanation> > using> > > > > Karma> > > > > > > theory was NOT required and not used. Current astrology> > > > > erroniously> > > > > > > integrates Karma theory into it. This is my personal> > opinian -> > > > > which> > > > > > > many may not agree with."> > > > > > >> > > > > > > If a horoscope reveals one's life story on earth, why would> > > > > Karma not> > > > > > > have a place in astrology?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > 'Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory and> > DOES> > > NOT> > > > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a modified> > > > > version> > > > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation,> > though> > > > > not> > > > > > > requeired"> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Agreed. Karma theory is NOT the only theory to which living> > > > > beings are> > > > > > > subjected to. That was why I gave 5 Niyama Dharmas which> > operate> > > > > in> > > > > > this> > > > > > > physical and mental realm. That is the teaching of the> > > > > Buddha....if> > > > > > you> > > > > > > want to know the source. Karma theory is only one of them.> > But> > > > > all> > > > > > that> > > > > > > is surpassed by Utu Niyama or more so by Dhamma Niyama.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hope this helps.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > > > sreelid@ wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I'> > > > > or 'me' or> > > > > > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of> > our> > > > > ego.> > > > > > > Once> > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The> > > > > journey> > > > > > > becomes> > > > > > > > > tireless.> > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only> > answer to> > > > > these> > > > > > > > mass> > > > > > > > > scale calamities.> > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > Agree - but certainly that is why new defenition is> > necessory.> > > > > As> > > > > > per> > > > > > > > my current understanding the existing defenition CANNOT> > > > > explain the> > > > > > > mass> > > > > > > > scale calamities. Further if you ask about my personal> > > > > opinian - (it> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > rebellious) - I does not think that Karma theory is/was> > part> > > > > of the> > > > > > > > ancient system of indian astology. Karma theory was> > introduced> > > > > to> > > > > > > > Ancient Indian Astrology only after Mihira - it is> > aborrowed> > > > > vedic> > > > > > > > concept adopted into non-vedic astrology as far as indian> > > > > astrology> > > > > > is> > > > > > > > concerned. Astrology has its own time/nature/rhythem based> > > > > > explantion> > > > > > > > and the explanation using Karma theory was NOT required> > and> > > not> > > > > > used.> > > > > > > > Current astrology erroniously integrates Karma theory> > into it.> > > > > This> > > > > > is> > > > > > > > my personal opinian - which many may not agree with.> > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > If you want to know the source of my> > > > > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are> > > > > already> > > > > > aware> > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > these rules > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > Of course! Even though I know about existance of those> > rules I> > > > > don't> > > > > > > > know the source of such classification and giving> > importance> > > > > to a> > > > > > > number> > > > > > > > five. Please provide more info about the source of your> > > > > learning. I> > > > > > > > would love know more about it.> > > > > > > > Note: Personally I am not in favor of normal karma theory> > and> > > > > DOES> > > > > > NOT> > > > > > > > believe in it as it is believed today. But may be a> > modified> > > > > version> > > > > > > > could be accepted as one of the alternative explanation,> > > > > though not> > > > > > > > requeired.> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > , "renunw"> > > > > renunw@> > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks for the beautiful explanation....though I may not> > > > > agree in> > > > > > > > toto.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > "(Please note that there is no 'other'; everyone is me,> > one> > > > > and> > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > same). "> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Everyone is one and the same...but everyone is not 'I'> > > > > or 'me' or> > > > > > > > > 'myself'. This "I" & 'mine" etc. concept is the root of> > our> > > > > ego.> > > > > > > Once> > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > let go of this...our baggage becomes much lighter. The> > > > > journey> > > > > > > becomes> > > > > > > > > tireless.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > "Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we> > redefine> > > > > the> > > > > > > > > defenition of Karma."> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer, if karma is the only> > answer to> > > > > these> > > > > > > > mass> > > > > > > > > scale calamities.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > It is my learning that there are five orders or> > processes> > > > > > (niyamas)> > > > > > > > > which operate in the physical and mental realms:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > "i. Kamma niyama, order of act and result, e.g.,> > desirable> > > > > and> > > > > > > > > undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad> > results.> > > > > > > > > ii. Utu niyama, physical (inorganic) order, e.g.,> > seasonal> > > > > > phenomena> > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > winds and rains.> > > > > > > > > iii. Bija niyama, order of germs or seeds (physical> > organic> > > > > > order);> > > > > > > > > e.g., rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from> > sugar> > > > > cane> > > > > > or> > > > > > > > > honey, etc. The scientific theory of cells and genes> > and the> > > > > > > physical> > > > > > > > > similarity of twins may be ascribed to this order.> > > > > > > > > iv. Citta niyama, order of mind or psychic law, e.g.,> > > > > processes of> > > > > > > > > consciousness (citta vithi), power of mind, etc.> > > > > > > > > v. Dhamma niyama, order of the norm, e.g., the natural> > > > > phenomena> > > > > > > > > occurring at the advent of a Bodhisatta in his last> > birth,> > > > > > > > gravitation,> > > > > > > > > etc. "> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Accordingly collective deaths/mass destructions can be> > > > > explained> > > > > > > under> > > > > > > > > Utu niyama/Dhamma niyama.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > You may agree or disagree.....If you want to know the> > source> > > > > of my> > > > > > > > > learning, I will gladly reveal...but I am sure you are> > > > > already> > > > > > aware> > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > these rules > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- In> > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Renu ji,> > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > > > > > innocent.....yet> > > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but> > in> > > > > mass> > > > > > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the> > same> > > > > > wrongful> > > > > > > > > > action> > > > > > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > > > Karma could be a good answer - if and only if we> > redefine> > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > defenition of Karma. The point to be considered is> > that -> > > > > of> > > > > > > course> > > > > > > > > > every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but> > as> > > far> > > > > > events> > > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > > > considered it is NOT necessory that it is those who> > > > > initiate the> > > > > > > act> > > > > > > > > who> > > > > > > > > > reap the rewards; It could be the 'others' as well.> > > > > (Please note> > > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > there is no 'other'; everyone is me, one and the> > same). We> > > > > do> > > > > > > > > > something, and someone else has to suffer the bad> > effects;> > > > > we do> > > > > > > > > > something good, and someone will defenitly get the> > good> > > > > results> > > > > > -> > > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > truth we know from our daily life. Karma theory is> > also> > > NOT> > > > > > alian> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > the daily life; it is in tune with it and is the> > same! But> > > > > we> > > > > > > > > > erroniously 'assume' that if we do something in this> > birth> > > > > or> > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > other> > > > > > > > > > the result will come to us. (i.e. if 'I' do something> > bad> > > > > in> > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > birth> > > > > > > > > > or the other 'I' will have to suffer now or later for> > > > > sure).> > > > > > > > Actually> > > > > > > > > > here itself lies the big mistake. The truth is - if I> > > > > do/did> > > > > > > > something> > > > > > > > > > wrong (i..e not in tune with the nature - both> > nature's> > > > > nature> > > > > > and> > > > > > > > my> > > > > > > > > > nature) someone will have to suffer for sure ( I am> > > > > everywhere,> > > > > > so> > > > > > > > who> > > > > > > > > > ever is suffering, it is me who is suffering). We may> > have> > > > > to> > > > > > > > correct> > > > > > > > > > ourselves as far as the concept of Karma is> > concerned -> > > > > possibly> > > > > > > > then> > > > > > > > > > only we will start understanding it.> > > > > > > > > > * Then only - Earthquakes, floods and tsunamis and the> > > > > > destruction> > > > > > > > > > caused by any other natural and other callamity makes> > > > > sense and> > > > > > > then> > > > > > > > > > only the concept of Karma (Action) could explain it.> > > > > > > > > > * Then only - the explanations for the root cause of> > > > > events and> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > possible results of current actions which we decifer> > from> > > > > the> > > > > > > chart> > > > > > > > > make> > > > > > > > > > sense. (No, it is NOT that I will have to suffer the> > > > > results of> > > > > > my> > > > > > > > > > actions; but better it is that, SOMEONE FOR SURE will> > have> > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > suffer/enjoy the results of my actions.....my karma> > > > > acts.....!)> > > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- In> > , "renunw"> > > > > > renunw@> > > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Pandit Arjun ji,> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "it means that it is god who killed thousands> > > > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national> > song> > > > > on> > > > > > > > republic> > > > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who> > swallowed> > > > > lakhs> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it> > infers> > > > > that> > > > > > gods> > > > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the form> > of> > > > > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or terrorists> > too> > > > > have> > > > > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar> > > > > casualties> > > > > > akin> > > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own different> > > > > ways."> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > How true!> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > I have always wondered why god would punish the> > > > > > innocent.....yet> > > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > > > > answer to that. One may say it is 'karama'.....but> > in> > > > > mass> > > > > > > > > > destructions> > > > > > > > > > > like tsunamis etc. ...is everyone punished for the> > same> > > > > > wrongful> > > > > > > > > > action> > > > > > > > > > > in a past birth?> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > blessings> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Renu> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ,> > > > > > > "panditarjun2004"> > > > > > > > > > > panditarjun2004@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > dear friends> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the indian government through its hundred percent> > > owned> > > > > > > > insurance> > > > > > > > > > > > companies defined acts of god wherein it mentions> > that> > > > > > floods,> > > > > > > > > > > > earthquakes and other largescale natural> > calamities> > > > > beyond> > > > > > > human> > > > > > > > > > > > control as acts of god. it means that it is god> > who> > > > > killed> > > > > > > > > thousands> > > > > > > > > > > > of innocent school children while singing national> > > > > song on> > > > > > > > > republic> > > > > > > > > > > > day through earthquake. it is the same god who> > > > > swallowed> > > > > > lakhs> > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > families in floods and tsunamis. from this, it> > infers> > > > > that> > > > > > > gods> > > > > > > > > > > > indeed have weapons of mass destruction in the> > form of> > > > > > > > > earthquakes,> > > > > > > > > > > > floods and tsunamis. similarly evils or> > terrorists too> > > > > have> > > > > > > > > weapons> > > > > > > > > > > > of mass destruction and they too inflict similar> > > > > casualties> > > > > > > akin> > > > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > > > these acts of god, but they have their own> > different> > > > > ways.> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > with best wishes and blessings> > > > > > > > > > > > pandit arjun> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dear Renu ji, ==> > I agree with Bhaskar ji when he says that god is > not responsible for all calamities. <== That is why I said that I disagree. There could be only 2 kind of statements possible regarding this - 1) God is responsible for every thing bad (such as calamities etc) and is also responsible for everything good (happiness, love etc) OR 2) God is NOT responsible for everything bad (such as calamities etc) and is also NOT responsible for everything good (happiness, love etc). [The explanation as you puts it could be - I should be responsible for my own well being or my own destruction, and not anyone else) The problem with the second explanation is that it considers ME as an entity outside God! Thus essentially the argument that does not hold god NOT responsible all problems but OWN actions assumes that God is NOT omnipresent! Of course there could be an alternative - i.e. of assuming that God and Me are synonymous. Only in that situation both the following statements will become synonymous - 1) God is responsible for everything good and bad. 2) I am responsible everything good and bad. [but ofcourse note that the feeling of oneness of a drop as ocean and stating that " I am responsible for all the turbulences " should not be taken literally even though a glimpse of truth is in it; But if the ocean tells that " I am responsible for all the turbulences " then may be it could be more near to truth; but the ocean never does it because even the turbulences itself are just part of ocean itself!!!] So the end note is, It is better to assume that - God is responsible for every thing good and bad; and god IS everything good and bad. i.e. Even the good and bad events ARE god; that too is part of existence, divinity. Love and regards, Sreenadh , " renunw " <renunw wrote: > > > Dear Sreenadh ji, > > You have got me wrong. I neither said all divine/good is god nor that > all bad is not god. I agree with Bhaskar ji when he says that god is > not responsible for all calamities. At the same time I disagree with > may be almost everyone here...that god is responsible for all good > things in the world. I should be responsible for my own well being or my > own destruction, and not anyone else. Mind is the forerunner of > everything. It is our mind that we need to control so that we could > accept everything with equanimity, whether good or bad. > > Returning to 'karma' theory....... at the end even law of karma will > surrender to natural laws. > > " God is the ultimate oneness - within and outside, everywhere " > > In this I feel there is some truth worthy of investigating through > meditation...thanks. > > blessings > > Renu > > blessings > > Renu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Dear Renu ji, ==>You are indeed transformed...less astrology and more philosophy. I do love this...<== This may not be true. :=) The fact is that - * Writing philosophy is easy it flows from within. No need of study, no need of preparation. * Writing systematic notes on astrology is bit more difficult. It demands extra free hours. It demands that I should do extra reading. It demands that I should sit at home dedicating some hours specifically for astrology write-ups. It demands that I should think/classify/clarify the concepts using clear words so that it would become worthy study material. * I am just married and currently almost overloaded with work at office. This finding much free time either in office or at home is bit difficult. Further writing research astrology not sitting at office is a difficult task. :=). At home I am so currently so pre-occupied with duties as well as some exam preparations that (I reach by around 8 PM only as well) finding free time for astrology write-ups at home also become a difficult task. So what is the solutions? What can be done? The only solution I have (to keep the group more active and alive) is to write what ever comes to my mind so naturally. And it happens to be simple philosophical thoughts - more philosophy and less astrology. :=) There nothing so excellent in it, but only lack of free time. ;)Love and regards,Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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