Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!

[Guest guest]

Dear Srinadh,

 

I did not enter into an issue with Elst for certain reasons. But he is

clearly mistaken in his notions.

 

However, the words Yavana does not seem to be referring to Greeks alone, but

every foreigner and in particular , the western kingdoms such as Gandhara

etc.

 

This argument is supported by the fact that there are countries of Parama

Yavana (Extremely foreign?).

 

I remember reading the word Yavana even in RV, those people who have helped

Vrtra. But I am not sure of this and hence, I did not add in my musings.

 

regards,

 

Kishore patnaik

[Guest guest]

Dear Kishore patnaik ji, //However, the words Yavana does not seem to be referring to Greeks alone, but every foreigner and in particular , the western kingdoms such as Gandhara etc.// If the word 'Yavana' originally referred to the 3rd millennium Ionians, then certainly that is just natural that the word would/could refer to many foreigners such as - 1) Ionians/Smyrna ppl - Because the word originally refer to them 2) Achaemenid ppl -Since in later period Ionia was under rule of Achaemenid empire 3) Turkish ppl -Because Smyrna is in Turkey 4) Iranian ppl -Because Achaemenid empire covered both Iran and Ionia) 5) Parthian (Pertian) ppl - Because numerous Ionians settled in Iran/Persia 6) Meluhhan (Sindhu-Sarasvati) ppl - Because both Ionians and Meluhhans are of the same period; and follow the similar non-vedic culture and past. 7) Greeks - Because it is they who ruled Ionia and argured as the continuation of this ancient tradition later. Thus the word might have got used to refer to Ionian/Crete/Greek/Iranian/ Persian/Afghan/West-Indian/Non-vedic and numerous other people. This clarifies why, any one who reads through the ancient references may get the initial feeling that the word Yavana refers to the Greek; on mature phase gets the feeling that the word generally refers to foreigners. But I feel that when the understanding improves we should realize this possibility and understand, How a word which originally meant Ionian only, later developed an changed meaning and was used to refer to people of many countries in the course of time. But this DOES NOT alter the original meaning of the word - Yavana certainly meant Ionian in the beginning.Love and regards,Sreeandh , "kishore patnaik" <kishorepatnaik09 wrote:>> Dear Srinadh,> > I did not enter into an issue with Elst for certain reasons. But he is> clearly mistaken in his notions.> > However, the words Yavana does not seem to be referring to Greeks alone, but> every foreigner and in particular , the western kingdoms such as Gandhara> etc.> > This argument is supported by the fact that there are countries of Parama> Yavana (Extremely foreign?).> > I remember reading the word Yavana even in RV, those people who have helped> Vrtra. But I am not sure of this and hence, I did not add in my musings.> > regards,> > Kishore patnaik>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,

 

I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great Archimedian

emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece. However that occupation was

short and it lasted for one year only. It is believed by some that Alexander's

expedition against the Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat and he

succeeded in occupying the entire Archimedian empire, which included the

present-day Pakistan in the east, ruled through their Satrapies of the

Archimenians..

 

As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha (the appendix

to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who were expelled from his

kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of the sage Vasishtha, as they

revolted. So they were very much of Indian origin.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil Kumar Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

 

 

Sreenadh <sreesog

 

Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM

Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT

Macedonia)!

 

 

Dear All,

I happend to read a good write-up from our Kishor Patnaik ji's group by

Koenraad Elst as follows -

====

the very choice of the word Ionian/Yona/ Yavana to

indicate Greeks pars pro toto may indeed stem from a situation where

the Greeks whom Indians encountered were all Ionians, not

Macedonians. Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of

Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the eats of the empire

would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from

before Alexander.

(http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/ 7520)

====

That is really interesting!

* We know that it was Macedonian king Alexander who conquered much of east

including Afghanistan and some part of India around BC 300.

* We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian astrological sources dates

back even to BC 1400!

How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to Greeks?! If

not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer to? Which culture and

cultural heritage is referred to?!

The answer lies in identifying the true meaning of the word 'Ionian'; in

knowing were Ionia is and also in knowing why even BC 1400 records refer to

these people which the Greeks has a history from mere BC 800 onwards. The

following links and info may give you a good start.

* Ionia was an ancient region of central coastal Anatolia in present-day Turkey

, the region nearest Ýzmir, which was historically Smyrna . http://en.wikipedia

..org/wiki/ Ionia

* The region was settled as of the beginning of the third millennium BCE. It is

said to have been a city of the autochthonous Leleges before the Greek colonists

started to settle in the coast of Asia Minor as of the beginning of the first

millennia BCE. Throughout antiquity Smyrna was a leading city-state of Ionia ,

with influence over the Aegean shores and islands. Smyrna was also among the

cities that claimed Homer as a resident. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Smyrna

* The Ionians were one of the three populations into which the ancient Greeks

considered the population of Hellenes to have been divided. http://en.wikipedia

..org/wiki/ Ionians

* They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct Indo-European

languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best attested of them being the

Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is generally considered the earliest to

split off the Proto-Indo-European language, from a stage referred to either as

Indo-Hittite or " Middle PIE " , typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is

assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages

* Unlike " Aeolians " and " Dorians " , " Ionians " appears in the languages of

different civilizations around the eastern Mediterranean and as Far East as the

Indian subcontinent. They are not the earliest Greeks to appear in the records;

that distinction belongs to the Danaans and the Achaeans. The trail of the

Ionians begins in the Mycenaean Greek records of Crete . http://en.wikipedia

..org/wiki/ Ionians

So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient people lived in

Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian Greeks destroyed their

culture! Their golden period is the same as that of Crete (The home town of

Homer . Crete is another ancient culture that the barbarian Greeks destroyed).

Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and Yona. Prior to

then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the Vedic period, which

could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium BC. But in the Vedas the Yavanas

are a kingdom of Mlechhas . But please note that Mlechhas are the people of

Meluhha. (It has been speculated[who? ] that the term is related to Meluhha, the

name of a trading partner of Bronze Age Sumer, tentatively identified with the

Indus Valley civilization. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Mlechhas ) .

Meluhha is nothing but sindhu-sarasvati city of Harappa !! (http://en.wikipedia

..org/wiki/ Meluhha)

* So in short the conclusion would be that the word `Yavana' (People of Ionia)

refers the ancient people centered around `Smyrna' city (a place currently in

Turkey) while `Mlechha' (people of Meluhha) refers to the Harappan people of

Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization – possibly both of them being the extention of one

and the same culture dating as back as BC 3000 to BC 1800.L0ve and regards,

Sreenadh

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,

 

When king Sagara expelled the revolting clans, these included the Yavanas, the

Kambojas, the Pahlavas (the Persians) and some others.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

 

 

Sreenadh <sreesog

 

Sunday, August 24, 2008 8:19:22 AM

Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and

NOT Macedonia)!

 

 

Dear Kishore patnaik ji,

//However, the words Yavana does not seem to be referring to Greeks alone, but

every foreigner and in particular , the western kingdoms such as Gandhara etc.//

 

If the word 'Yavana' originally referred to the 3rd millennium Ionians, then

certainly that is just natural that the word would/could refer to many

foreigners such as -

1) Ionians/Smyrna ppl - Because the word originally refer to them

2) Achaemenid ppl -Since in later period Ionia was under rule of Achaemenid

empire

3) Turkish ppl -Because Smyrna is in Turkey

4) Iranian ppl -Because Achaemenid empire covered both Iran and Ionia)

5) Parthian (Pertian) ppl - Because numerous Ionians settled in Iran/Persia

6) Meluhhan (Sindhu-Sarasvati) ppl - Because both Ionians and Meluhhans are of

the same period; and follow the similar non-vedic culture and past.

7) Greeks - Because it is they who ruled Ionia and argured as the continuation

of this ancient tradition later.

 

Thus the word might have got used to refer to Ionian/Crete/ Greek/Iranian/

Persian/Afghan/ West-Indian/ Non-vedic and numerous other people. This clarifies

why, any one who reads through the ancient references may get the initial

feeling that the word Yavana refers to the Greek; on mature phase gets the

feeling that the word generally refers to foreigners. But I feel that when the

understanding improves we should realize this possibility and understand, How a

word which originally meant Ionian only, later developed an changed meaning and

was used to refer to people of many countries in the course of time. But this

DOES NOT alter the original meaning of the word - Yavana certainly meant Ionian

in the beginning.

Love and regards,

Sreeandh

 

---

[Guest guest]

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great

Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece.

However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It

is believed by some that Alexander's expedition against the

Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat<

 

Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise

respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many

Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.

 

>

> As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha

(the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who

were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of

the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of

Indian origin.

>

 

That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word

Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing

its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage

exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then clearly

these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the

Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their

spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as

Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans

would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia

earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.

 

> Sreenadh <sreesog

>

> Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM

> Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of

Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!

>

> Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of

> Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire

> would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from

> before Alexander.

> (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/

7520)

> ====

> > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian

astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<

 

Do we really? What source is that?

 

> How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to

Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer

to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<

 

Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told

them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill

them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-

Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.

 

 

 

> * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct

Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best

attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is

generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-

European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite

or " Middle PIE " , typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is

assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <

 

Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who

adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were

simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not

Anatolian.

 

 

> So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient

people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian

Greeks destroyed their culture!<

 

They are Greeks, e.g. the philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And

Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been

destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture

alone.

 

> Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and

Yona.<

 

Yes.

 

>Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the

Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium

BC.<

 

Do they really?!

 

Thanks,

 

KE

[Guest guest]

Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. This also means that they must have been transcribed many times in the past but that does not reduce their antiquity. In fact the book gives an account of what happened much before the Mahabharata times and this means the facts mentioned in it are very much older than 5000 years. As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana the mentioned events should have occurred around 9000 years ago. Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponslibe

action.Regards,SKBkoenraad_elst <koenraad.elst Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:35:08 AM Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

>

> I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great

Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece.

However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It

is believed by some that Alexander's expedition against the

Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat<

Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise

respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many

Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.

>

> As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha

(the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who

were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of

the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of

Indian origin.

>

That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word

Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing

its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage

exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then clearly

these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the

Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their

spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as

Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans

would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia

earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.

> Sreenadh <sreesog >

> ancient_indian_ astrology

> Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of

Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!

>

> Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of

> Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire

> would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from

> before Alexander.

> (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/

7520)

> ====

> > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian

astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<

Do we really? What source is that?

> How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to

Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer

to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<

Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told

them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill

them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-

Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.

> * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct

Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best

attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is

generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-

European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite

or "Middle PIE", typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is

assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <

Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who

adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were

simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not

Anatolian.

> So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient

people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian

Greeks destroyed their culture!<

They are Greeks, e.g. the philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And

Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been

destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture

alone.

> Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and

Yona.<

Yes.

>Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the

Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium

BC.<

Do they really?!

Thanks,

KE

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya and Koenraad Elst ji,

Thanks. That was pretty informative.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana // I don't think that that Ramayana is an ancient text (The currently available text is possibly of AD 2nd/3rd century origin). Further there were numerous Vasishtas, since Vasishta was Guru parampara, a clan - Similar to Gargas (Gargs) and Parasaras and Kausikas. The ancient Rishi Kulas were like the Universities where the head teacher of the Kula holds the sage title (Such as Vasishta, Narada, Mandhavya, Chyevana or Ati or what ever that be). So we can not be much sure about the period of 'Vasishta' (considering as if it refers to ONLY ONE sage and lived in one period alone). //Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. // First, what was the period of Mahabharata is one controversial question. Second, from linguistic perspective the language used in Mahabharata is pretty evolved compared to that of Vedic language - and thus the currently available Mahabharata cannot be a text of Vedic period around BCE 3100. Thirdly we need to ensure, to whom the word Vedic Period refers to (Are we referring to Sindhu-Sarasvati ppl, or specifically to Kalibengan ppl and so on), since Vedic 'culture' is not much supported by archeological evidences. //Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponsible action.// I am of the opinion that we should allow criticism, because only when strong criticism is present people will search for more logical arguments, supportive evidence; it is said that those which are born in fire will not perish simple heat of sunlight. Thus let the arguments evolve with inner strength - and for that criticism is necessary, and it should be appreciated.Love and regards,Sreeandh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. This also means that they must have been transcribed many times in the past but that does not reduce their antiquity. In fact the book gives an account of what happened much before the Mahabharata times and this means the facts mentioned in it are very much older than 5000 years. As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana the mentioned events should have occurred around 9000 years ago. Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponslibe action.> > Regards,> > SKB> > > > > koenraad_elst koenraad.elst > Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:35:08 AM> Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great > Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece. > However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It > is believed by some that Alexander's expedition against the > Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat<> > Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise > respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many > Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.> > > > > As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha > (the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who > were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of > the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of > Indian origin.> >> > That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word > Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing > its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage > exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then clearly > these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the > Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their > spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as > Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans > would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia > earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.> > > Sreenadh sreesog@ >> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of > Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > > Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of> > Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire> > would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from> > before Alexander.> > (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/ > 7520)> > ====> > > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian > astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<> > Do we really? What source is that?> > > How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to > Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer > to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<> > Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told > them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill > them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-> Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.> > > * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct > Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best > attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is > generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-> European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite > or "Middle PIE", typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is > assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <> > Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who > adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were > simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not > Anatolian.> > > So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient > people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian > Greeks destroyed their culture!<> > They are Greeks, e.g. the philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And > Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been > destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture > alone.> > > Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and > Yona.<> > Yes.> > >Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the > Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium > BC.<> > Do they really?!> > Thanks,> > KE>

[Guest guest]

The Mahabharatha period is assessed to be BC 3000.. it is again based on theplanetary positions .. I have read this elsewhere..Regarding Vashishtha, I am not clear what Shrinadh is proposing.. Is there any evidence support his clan theory ? As we know , there was one Vashishtha , whowas the chief tutor during Janaka's period.. If there are others let me know..In the rash to refute something, there is a possibility that the sense could be lost..If the person is looking for archeological evidence for Vedic period, I want to knowwhat is the research he has conducted to say there are none.. In some of his earlier mails , I have seen a tendency to split astrology as Vedic and non-Vedic.. As a student of Jyothish, my teacher started with the statement that Jyothish was a Vedang. I have now confusion about it's

origin now..Is there any evidence to prove that the astrology system that we use is non-vedic( not related to Vedas, or derived at a letr point in time ) ? I have seen in a Panchangam ( I believe this is a key tool for Jyothish ) all teh Yoga , Karana Planets etc.. having rulers that are Vedic gods.. I can't some how co-relate theJyothish independent of Veda and atthe same time using it as a basis.. Or is non-vedic refers to something else ? Believeing anything , just because it is a new theory is a dangerous approach. The current day Sceince has that approach and it has so much of a twisted path, except for a few , basic and sound principles, taht were laid long back.regardsShri --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:Sreenadh <sreesog Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)! Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 2:52 PM

 

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana // I don't think that that Ramayana is an ancient text (The currently available text is possibly of AD 2nd/3rd century origin). Further there were numerous Vasishtas, since Vasishta was Guru parampara, a clan - Similar to Gargas (Gargs) and Parasaras and Kausikas. The ancient Rishi Kulas were like the Universities where the head teacher of the Kula holds the sage title (Such as Vasishta, Narada, Mandhavya, Chyevana or Ati or what ever that be). So we can not be much sure about the period of 'Vasishta' (considering as if it refers to ONLY ONE sage and lived in one period alone). //Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. //

First, what was the period of Mahabharata is one controversial question. Second, from linguistic perspective the language used in Mahabharata is pretty evolved compared to that of Vedic language - and thus the currently available Mahabharata cannot be a text of Vedic period around BCE 3100. Thirdly we need to ensure, to whom the word Vedic Period refers to (Are we referring to Sindhu-Sarasvati ppl, or specifically to Kalibengan ppl and so on), since Vedic 'culture' is not much supported by archeological evidences. //Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponsible action.// I am of the opinion that we should allow criticism, because only when strong criticism is present people will search for more logical arguments, supportive

evidence; it is said that those which are born in fire will not perish simple heat of sunlight. Thus let the arguments evolve with inner strength - and for that criticism is necessary, and it should be appreciated.Love and regards,Sreeandh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. This also means that they must have been transcribed many times in the past but that does not reduce their antiquity. In fact the book gives an account of what happened much before the Mahabharata times and this means the facts mentioned in it are very much older than 5000 years. As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana the mentioned events should have occurred around 9000 years ago. Therefore without any valid

and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponslibe action.> > Regards,> > SKB> > > > > koenraad_elst koenraad.elst@ ...> ancient_indian_ astrology> Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:35:08 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great > Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece. > However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It > is believed by some

that Alexander's expedition against the > Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat<> > Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise > respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many > Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.> > > > > As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha > (the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who > were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of > the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of > Indian origin.> >> > That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word > Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing > its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage > exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then

clearly > these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the > Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their > spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as > Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans > would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia > earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.> > > Sreenadh sreesog@ >> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of > Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > > Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of> > Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire> > would have been Ionians. That makes it likely

the word dates from> > before Alexander.> > (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/ > 7520)> > ====> > > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian > astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<> > Do we really? What source is that?> > > How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to > Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer > to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<> > Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told > them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill > them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-> Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.> > > * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of

extinct > Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best > attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is > generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-> European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite > or "Middle PIE", typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is > assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <> > Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who > adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were > simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not > Anatolian.> > > So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient > people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian > Greeks destroyed their culture!<> > They are Greeks, e.g. the

philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And > Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been > destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture > alone.> > > Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and > Yona.<> > Yes.> > >Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the > Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium > BC.<> > Do they really?!> > Thanks,> > KE>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,I agree with you in that different people have different ideas about the date of Valmiki's Ramayana, composed by the sage Valmiki. On the basis of the detailed astrological information on Lord Rama's birth, as given in the puranic Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text composed by Vedavyasa, it appears to me that Lord Rama's was born about 9300 years ago. Moreover this dating matches with the Yuga-time scale given in the Bhagawat purana and the Vishnu purana. The astro-scholar Avtar Kishen Kaulji could not understand the astronomical details given by Vedavyasa in the Adhyatma Ramayana and I had quite some arguments with him on that sometime ago. But I do not wish to go into it now as a very great detailed discussion will be required for that.

Further here is mention of the Ramayana events in the Mahabharata and the reverse is not seen, which proves that the Ramayana events occurred before the events of the Mahabharata.Regarding the date of the Mahabharata war, as obtained from the astronomical data given by Vedavyasa it is clear to me that it took place in the 32nd century BCE. Some knowledgeable astronomers goofed up the data given by Vedavyasa. For example Vedavyasa indicated that the Saturn was in Visakha and afflicted Rohini. To me it is clear that Saturn being in Visakha can afflict Rohini but astronomers, who do not believe in astrology, have interpreted it as that the Saturn must have been in Rohini to cause the affliction. They simply refuse to believe that Vedavyasa believed in astrology and mixed astrological data along with astronomical data, in spite of the fact that Vedavyasa mentioned about the omens in in the Mahabharata.. Because of this wrong

interpretation the modern astronomers of today could not find the correct date of the Mahabharata. Some of them find it difficult to believe that two eclipses can occur separated by a Kshayapaksha of 13 days . They are also not aware that the tithi of the day is the tithi in which the Sun rises. Then some of them are not well-versed in Sanskrit. For example, in the Bhishma parva Vedavyasa gives the word "Tribhaagashesha', which actually means "Tribhaaganaam shesha bhaaga", which means the last (part) of the the three parts, but the astronomers have given various meanings to this compound word, other than what it really means. This word is very important for identifying the paksha in which Bhishma died. Then there is one very reputed astronomer who says that Bhishma-Panchaka occurred when Bhishma was in the bed of arrows, whereas to my knowledge the Bhishma-Panchaka was from Kartiki-Ekadashi to Kartiki-Purnima and as the war started on the

next day after the Kartiki Purnima it is clear that the Bhishma-Panchaka could not have been when Bhishma was on the bed of arrows.Thus the dating of the Mahabharata war is not an easy subject and cannot be discussed here and it will require a sizable book to be written on it with all these expalanations. May be some day I shall find some time to do that.The great sage Vedavyasa realised that at his time the Vedas and the scriptures became so extensive that they would not survive unless these are divided into different texts as it had become impossible for an individual disciple to memorise and master all the scriptures during his twelve years of stay in the gururkula. Because of the divisions made by Vedavyasa it became possible for the disciples to memorise and master the texts he and his guru had chosen and this way the oral transmission of larger texts could continue. However from the time of Mahabharata

the larger puranas and the epics were gradually written down. However the Vedas continued to be transmitted orally till a late date. The mail has already become too long and I wish to conclude here as this subject is very interesting and one can go on and on.Regards,Sunil K.Bhattacharjya

[Guest guest]

Dear Joshiji,

 

I am sure Sreenadhji will agree that these texts are very old. Vedanga Jyotisha

was written when the winter eclipse occurred in Dhanistha ie in during the

period of about 3000BCE to 2000 BCE and Lagadhacharya lived before that as there

is mention of Lagadhacharya in third person only in that text. Vedanga Jyotisha

was actually composed by some descendent of Lagadhacharya. Further it is based

on the Rig and the Yajur Veda. Some scholars have refuted the date of 14th

century BCE arrived at by Colebrooke.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

..

 

 

 

 

krishna joshi <snjoshy

 

Monday, August 25, 2008 3:32:09 AM

Re: Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia

and NOT Macedonia)!

 

 

The Mahabharatha period is assessed to be BC 3000.. it is again based on the

planetary positions .. I have read this elsewhere..

 

Regarding Vashishtha, I am not clear what Shrinadh is proposing.. Is there any

evidence support his clan theory ? As we know , there was one Vashishtha , who

was the chief tutor during Janaka's period.. If there are others let me know..

 

In the rash to refute something, there is a possibility that the sense could be

lost..

If the person is looking for archeological evidence for Vedic period, I want to

know

what is the research he has conducted to say there are none..

 

In some of his earlier mails , I have seen a tendency to split astrology as

Vedic

and non-Vedic.. As a student of Jyothish, my teacher started with the statement

that Jyothish was a Vedang. I have now confusion about it's origin now..

Is there any evidence to prove that the astrology system that we use is

non-vedic

( not related to Vedas, or derived at a letr point in time ) ? I have seen in

a

Panchangam ( I believe this is a key tool for Jyothish ) all teh Yoga , Karana

Planets etc.. having rulers that are Vedic gods.. I can't some how co-relate

the

Jyothish independent of Veda and atthe same time using it as a basis..

 

Or is non-vedic refers to something else ?

 

Believeing anything , just because it is a new theory is a dangerous approach.

The current day Sceince has that approach and it has so much of a twisted

path, except for a few , basic and sound principles, taht were laid long back.

 

regards

Shri

 

 

--- On Mon, 8/25/08, Sreenadh <sreesog > wrote:

 

Sreenadh <sreesog >

[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia

and NOT Macedonia)!

ancient_indian_ astrology

Monday, August 25, 2008, 2:52 PM

 

 

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,

//As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana //

I don't think that that Ramayana is an ancient text (The currently available

text is possibly of AD 2nd/3rd century origin). Further there were numerous

Vasishtas, since Vasishta was Guru parampara, a clan - Similar to Gargas (Gargs)

and Parasaras and Kausikas. The ancient Rishi Kulas were like the Universities

where the head teacher of the Kula holds the sage title (Such as Vasishta,

Narada, Mandhavya, Chyevana or Ati or what ever that be). So we can not be much

sure about the period of 'Vasishta' (considering as if it refers to ONLY ONE

sage and lived in one period alone).

//Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by

around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. //

First, what was the period of Mahabharata is one controversial question.

Second, from linguistic perspective the language used in Mahabharata is pretty

evolved compared to that of Vedic language - and thus the currently available

Mahabharata cannot be a text of Vedic period around BCE 3100. Thirdly we need

to ensure, to whom the word Vedic Period refers to (Are we referring to

Sindhu-Sarasvati ppl, or specifically to Kalibengan ppl and so on), since Vedic

'culture' is not much supported by archeological evidences.

//Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should

not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says,

otherwise it will be considered an irresponsible action.//

I am of the opinion that we should allow criticism, because only when strong

criticism is present people will search for more logical arguments, supportive

evidence; it is said that those which are born in fire will not perish simple

heat of sunlight. Thus let the arguments evolve with inner strength - and for

that criticism is necessary, and it should be appreciated.

Love and regards,

Sreeandh

 

ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by

around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. This also means that they

must have been transcribed many times in the past but that does not reduce their

antiquity. In fact the book gives an account of what happened much before the

Mahabharata times and this means the facts mentioned in it are very much older

than 5000 years. As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana the mentioned

events should have occurred around 9000 years ago. Therefore without any valid

and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to

contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an

irresponslibe action.

>

> Regards,

>

> SKB

>

>

>

>

> koenraad_elst koenraad.elst@ ...

> ancient_indian_ astrology

> Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:35:08 AM

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia

and NOT Macedonia)!

>

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya

> <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

> >

> > I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great

> Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece.

> However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It

> is believed by some that Alexander's expedition against the

> Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat<

>

> Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise

> respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many

> Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.

>

> >

> > As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha

> (the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who

> were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of

> the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of

> Indian origin.

> >

>

> That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word

> Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing

> its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage

> exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then clearly

> these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the

> Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their

> spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as

> Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans

> would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia

> earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.

>

> > Sreenadh sreesog@ >

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of

> Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!

> >

> > Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of

> > Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire

> > would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from

> > before Alexander.

> > (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/

> 7520)

> > ====

> > > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian

> astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<

>

> Do we really? What source is that?

>

> > How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to

> Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer

> to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<

>

> Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told

> them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill

> them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-

> Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.

>

> > * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct

> Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best

> attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is

> generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-

> European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite

> or " Middle PIE " , typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is

> assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <

>

> Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who

> adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were

> simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not

> Anatolian.

>

> > So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient

> people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian

> Greeks destroyed their culture!<

>

> They are Greeks, e.g. the philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And

> Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been

> destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture

> alone.

>

> > Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and

> Yona.<

>

> Yes.

>

> >Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the

> Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium

> BC.<

>

> Do they really?!

>

> Thanks,

>

> KE

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,

 

You have sent the link for the map of India in the ancient times, where one can see the the eastern kingdom of Pragjyotisha. Pragjyotisha was mentioned in the ancient epics. Pragjyotisha probably means the ancient-most place, where astrology and astronomy were first developed. It was ruled by an Asura king Narakasura, who was killed by Lord Krishna. I would not be surprised if some scholar finds out that Mayasura, the writer of Surya-Siddhanta , was from that Asura kingdom of Pragjyotisha. To my knowledge it is also mentioned in the Mahabharata that Narakasura's son Bhagadatta came to the Rajasuya yajna of Yudhishthira, as the leader of the Yavanas. This may also mean that the Asuras of Pragjyotisha were referred to as Yavana. Some scholar may even try to find out in future if Mayasura's Surya-Siddhanta was referred to as the Yavana Jataka. This may probably be a suitable line of investigation

for interested scholars, who may wish to study further the history and development of astrology and astronomy in the ancient India.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

 

 

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 9:43:18 AM Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!

 

Dear Joshiji,I am sure Sreenadhji will agree that these texts are very old. Vedanga Jyotisha was written when the winter eclipse occurred in Dhanistha ie in during the period of about 3000BCE to 2000 BCE and Lagadhacharya lived before that as there is mention of Lagadhacharya in third person only in that text. Vedanga Jyotisha was actually composed by some descendent of Lagadhacharya. Further it is based on the Rig and the Yajur Veda. Some scholars have refuted the date of 14th century BCE arrived at by Colebrooke. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya.krishna joshi <snjoshy >ancient_indian_ astrology@

. comMonday, August 25, 2008 3:32:09 AMRe: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!The Mahabharatha period is assessed to be BC 3000.. it is again based on theplanetary positions .. I have read this elsewhere..Regarding Vashishtha, I am not clear what Shrinadh is proposing.. Is there any evidence support his clan theory ? As we know , there was one Vashishtha , whowas the chief tutor during Janaka's period.. If there are others let me know..In the rash to refute something, there is a possibility that the sense could be lost..If the person is looking for archeological evidence for Vedic period, I want to knowwhat is the research he has conducted to say there are none.. In some of his earlier mails , I have seen a tendency to split astrology as Vedic and non-Vedic.. As a student of Jyothish, my teacher started with

the statement that Jyothish was a Vedang. I have now confusion about it's origin now..Is there any evidence to prove that the astrology system that we use is non-vedic( not related to Vedas, or derived at a letr point in time ) ? I have seen in a Panchangam ( I believe this is a key tool for Jyothish ) all teh Yoga , Karana Planets etc.. having rulers that are Vedic gods.. I can't some how co-relate theJyothish independent of Veda and atthe same time using it as a basis..Or is non-vedic refers to something else ? Believeing anything , just because it is a new theory is a dangerous approach.The current day Sceince has that approach and it has so much of a twisted path, except for a few , basic and sound principles, taht were laid long back.regardsShri--- On Mon, 8/25/08, Sreenadh <sreesog > wrote:Sreenadh <sreesog >Subject:

[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!ancient_indian_ astrologyMonday, August 25, 2008, 2:52 PMDear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana //I don't think that that Ramayana is an ancient text (The currently available text is possibly of AD 2nd/3rd century origin). Further there were numerous Vasishtas, since Vasishta was Guru parampara, a clan - Similar to Gargas (Gargs) and Parasaras and Kausikas. The ancient Rishi Kulas were like the Universities where the head teacher of the Kula holds the sage title (Such as Vasishta, Narada, Mandhavya, Chyevana or Ati or what ever that be). So we can not be much sure about the period of 'Vasishta' (considering as if it refers to ONLY ONE sage and lived in one period alone). //Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than

200 generations ago. //First, what was the period of Mahabharata is one controversial question. Second, from linguistic perspective the language used in Mahabharata is pretty evolved compared to that of Vedic language - and thus the currently available Mahabharata cannot be a text of Vedic period around BCE 3100. Thirdly we need to ensure, to whom the word Vedic Period refers to (Are we referring to Sindhu-Sarasvati ppl, or specifically to Kalibengan ppl and so on), since Vedic 'culture' is not much supported by archeological evidences. //Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponsible action.//I am of the opinion that we should allow criticism, because only when strong criticism is present people will search for more logical arguments, supportive evidence; it is said that those which are

born in fire will not perish simple heat of sunlight. Thus let the arguments evolve with inner strength - and for that criticism is necessary, and it should be appreciated.Love and regards,Sreeandhancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. This also means that they must have been transcribed many times in the past but that does not reduce their antiquity. In fact the book gives an account of what happened much before the Mahabharata times and this means the facts mentioned in it are very much older than 5000 years. As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana the mentioned events should have occurred around 9000 years ago. Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to

contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponslibe action.> > Regards,> > SKB> > > > > koenraad_elst koenraad.elst@ ...> ancient_indian_ astrology> Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:35:08 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great > Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece. > However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It > is believed by some that Alexander's expedition against the > Archimedian empire was to avenge

that defeat<> > Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise > respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many > Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.> > > > > As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha > (the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who > were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of > the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of > Indian origin.> >> > That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word > Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing > its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage > exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then clearly > these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the

> Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their > spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as > Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans > would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia > earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.> > > Sreenadh sreesog@ >> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of > Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > > Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of> > Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire> > would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from> > before Alexander.> > (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/ > 7520)> > ====> > > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian > astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<> > Do we really? What source is that?> > > How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to > Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer > to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<> > Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told > them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill > them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-> Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.> > > * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct

> Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best > attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is > generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-> European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite > or "Middle PIE", typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is > assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <> > Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who > adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were > simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not > Anatolian.> > > So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient > people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian > Greeks destroyed their

culture!<> > They are Greeks, e.g. the philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And > Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been > destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture > alone.> > > Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and > Yona.<> > Yes.> > >Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the > Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium > BC.<> > Do they really?!> > Thanks,> > KE>

[Guest guest]

Dear Krishna Joshi ji, //> Regarding Vashishtha, I am not clear what Shrinadh is proposing.. Is there any > evidence support his clan theory ? As we know , there was one Vashishtha , who> was the chief tutor during Janaka's period.. If there are others let me know..// The simple info that "The Kula Guru of ALL the Surya Vamsa kings (Ayodhya kings)" were Vasishta is enough to tell us that there were numerous Vaishtas - hope you see the simple point. Refer to Puranic Encyclopedia, you will see numerous other Vasishtas mentioned as well. //> Is there any evidence to prove that the astrology system that we use is non-vedic// To any one who has basic understanding of Vedas and Vedic literature, it is evident that Astronomy/Astrology metioned/used in them is TROPICAL in nature and NOT the Nirayana system that we practice today. The NIRAYANA system of astrology is NOT supprted by Vedic literature and thus Non-vedic. Please note that even as per Mihira, Astrology is Agama Sastra (Tantric;Non-vedic) knowledge and NOT Nigama sastra (i.e. Vedic).//> ?Believeing anything , just because it is a new theory is a dangerous? approach.> ?The current day Sceince has that approach and it has so much of a twisted > ?path, except for a few , basic and sound principles, taht were laid long back..// True - keep this in mind, while reading every literature, new born theories such as 'Vedic' astrology and 'Divisional charts' which got GENERRATED only a few centuries back! Let us go back to the knowledge of the ancient past, the knowledge shared by sages - as is - without corruption - maintaining the sincerity and originality.Love and regards,Sreenadh , krishna joshi <snjoshy wrote:>> The Mahabharatha period is assessed to be BC 3000.. it is again based on the> planetary positions .. I have read this elsewhere..> > Regarding Vashishtha, I am not clear what Shrinadh is proposing.. Is there any > evidence support his clan theory ? As we know , there was one Vashishtha , who> was the chief tutor during Janaka's period.. If there are others let me know..> > In the rash to refute something, there is a possibility that the sense could be lost..> If the? person is looking for archeological evidence for Vedic period, I want to know> what is the research he has conducted to say there are none.. > > In some of his earlier mails , I have seen a tendency to split astrology as Vedic > and non-Vedic.. As a student of Jyothish, my teacher started with the statement > that Jyothish was a Vedang. I have now confusion about it's origin now..> Is there any evidence to prove that the astrology system that we use is non-vedic> ( not related to Vedas, or derived at a letr point? in time ) ? I have seen in? a > ?Panchangam ( I believe this is a key tool for Jyothish ) all teh Yoga , Karana > ?Planets etc.. having rulers that are Vedic gods.. I can't some how co-relate the> Jyothish independent of Veda and atthe same time using it as a basis..> > ?Or is non-vedic refers to something? else ? > > ?Believeing anything , just because it is a new theory is a dangerous? approach.> ?The current day Sceince has that approach and it has so much of a twisted > ?path, except for a few , basic and sound principles, taht were laid long back.> > regards> Shri> ?> > --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Sreenadh sreesog wrote:> Sreenadh sreesog Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > Monday, August 25, 2008, 2:52 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > //As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana?//> ?? I don't think that that Ramayana is an ancient text (The currently available text is possibly of AD 2nd/3rd century?origin). Further there were numerous Vasishtas, since Vasishta was Guru parampara, a clan - Similar to Gargas (Gargs) and Parasaras and Kausikas. The ancient?Rishi Kulas were like the ?Universities where the head teacher of the Kula holds the sage title (Such as Vasishta, Narada, Mandhavya, Chyevana or Ati or what ever that be). So we can not be much sure about the period of 'Vasishta' (considering as if it refers to ONLY ONE sage and lived in one period alone).? > //Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago.?//> ? First, what was the period of Mahabharata is one controversial question.? Second,?from linguistic perspective the language?used in Mahabharata is pretty?evolved compared to that of Vedic language - and thus?the currently available Mahabharata?cannot be a text of Vedic period around BCE 3100.? Thirdly we need to ensure,?to whom the word Vedic Period refers to?(Are we referring to Sindhu-Sarasvati ppl, or?specifically to?Kalibengan ppl and so on), since Vedic 'culture' is not much supported by archeological evidences. > //Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponsible action.//> ? I am of the opinion that we should allow criticism, because only when strong criticism is present people will search for more logical arguments, supportive evidence; it is said that those which are born in fire will not perish?simple? heat of??sunlight. Thus let the arguments evolve with inner strength - and for that criticism is necessary, and it should be appreciated.> Love and regards,> Sreeandh> ??> ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:> >> > Traditionally this is an old text of the Mahabharata times ie. composed by around 3100 BCE ie. more than 200 generations ago. This also means that they must have been transcribed many times in the past but that does not reduce their antiquity. In fact the book gives an account of what happened much before the Mahabharata times and this means the facts mentioned in it are very much older than 5000 years. As Vasishtha lived in the times of Ramayana the mentioned events should have occurred around 9000 years ago. Therefore without any valid and irrefutable proof to the contrary one should not make any such statement to contradict what the age-old tradition says, otherwise it will be considered an irresponslibe action.> > > > Regards,> > > > SKB> > > > > > > > > > koenraad_elst koenraad.elst@ ...> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Sunday, August 24, 2008 9:35:08 AM> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > > > I wish to add that Xerxes, the successor of Darius-I, the great > > Archimedian emperor, did defeat the Greeks and occupy Greece. > > However that occupation was short and it lasted for one year only. It > > is believed by some that Alexander's expedition against the > > Archimedian empire was to avenge that defeat<> > > > Because Xerxes destroyed Greek temples, Alexander, who otherwise > > respected all gods and temples of all peoples, extinguished many > > Zoroastrian sacred fires in Iran.> > > > > > > > As regards the Yavanas one finds that according to the Harivamsha > > (the appendix to the Mahabharata) the Yavanas were Kshatriyas, who > > were expelled from his kingdom by the king Sagar, on the advice of > > the sage Vasishtha, as they revolted. So they were very much of > > Indian origin.> > >> > > > That's a pretty late text, early Christian centuries, when the word > > Yavana was already several centuries old and may have begun losing > > its original specific meaning. It is unclear what the said passage > > exactly refers to. If the Vedic Vasishtha is meant, then clearly > > these Yavans are not the Greeks. unless they were the Greeks of the > > Vedic era, the era of the disintegration of the PIE peoples and their > > spread from South Asia westward, who were certainly not known as > > Ionians/Yavanas yet. It is highly doubtful the tha Alexandrine Yavans > > would have remembered anything about ndian origins two millennia > > earlier. At any rate no Greek text ever refers to such memory.> > > > > Sreenadh sreesog@ >> > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > Sunday, August 24, 2008 4:40:45 AM> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Yavanas (Non-Greeks; People of > > Ionia and NOT Macedonia)!> > > > > > Ionia was a part of the Achaemenid empire, the rest of> > > Greece was not, so any Greeks resetlled to the east of the empire> > > would have been Ionians. That makes it likely the word dates from> > > before Alexander.> > > (http://tech. groups.. com IndiaArchaeology /message/ > > 7520)> > > ====> > > > * We also know that the word 'Yavana' as per indian > > astrological sources dates back even to BC 1400!<> > > > Do we really? What source is that?> > > > > How come indian people know about Ionia and Ionians much prior to > > Greeks?! If not to the Alexandrian Greeks to whom this word refer > > to? Which culture and cultural heritage is referred to?!<> > > > Alexander was resisted by a Greek population in Afganistan. he told > > them not to sue for peace on any terms, as he was determined to kill > > them to the last; which he proceeded to do. Those were the pre-> > Alexandrine Ionians resettled by the Achaemenids since ca. 500 BC.> > > > > * They spoke the Anatolian languages are a group of extinct > > Indo-European languages, which were spoken in Asia Minor , the best > > attested of them being the Hittite language. The Anatolian branch is > > generally considered the earliest to split off the Proto-Indo-> > European language, from a stage referred to either as Indo-Hittite > > or "Middle PIE", typically a date in the mid-4th millennium BC is > > assumed. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Anatolian_ languages <> > > > Some Ionians may have been Hittites or Luwains or other non-IEs who > > adopted the newly dominant language. But in general, Ionians were > > simply Greek settles in Ionia. As Ionians, they spoke Greek, not > > Anatolian.> > > > > So in short the Yavanas are NOT Greeks, but the ancient > > people lived in Smyrna BEFORE the barbarian Alexandrian/ Macedonian > > Greeks destroyed their culture!<> > > > They are Greeks, e.g. the philosophers Thales and Herokleitos. And > > Alexander didn't destroy their culture. Some of their cities had been > > destroyed by the Persians, but generally they too left their culture > > alone.> > > > > Ionians appear in Indic literature and documents as Yavana and > > Yona.<> > > > Yes.> > > > >Prior to then, the Yavanas appear in the Vedas with reference to the > > Vedic period, which could be as early as the 2nd or 3rd millennium > > BC.<> > > > Do they really?!> > > > Thanks,> > > > KE> >>