Some thoughts on ancient Siva-Naga -Arya -Dravida Civilizations

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji,

 

Another excellent write up.

 

I am expressing few confusion of mine about.. hope you will

clear that too. I am a layman... so please don't mind by

these half-informed opinions / doubts

_____

 

Naga is associated with water and probably mountains too.

They are worshipper of Shiva ... and Vishnu takes rest in lap

of Naga.

 

They are progeny of Kashyap ..(Kush+Aap ?).

 

But my doubt is about the Pallava group. Some people

connect them to Iran and Pahlavi... but most of the sites

about Kamboj group lay claim to this group.

 

Similarly, the Kamboj and Jat group also proclaim that

all Gupta (Samudragupta and others) belong to them.

Gupta is supposed to mean a soldier in frontiers.

('Hope neelam Gupta-ji does not read this !!!). Kamboja

have been described as Kshatriya, Yavana and Daitya too.

 

Somehow my feeling is .. Naga is separate from the

Pallava / Kamboj group.

 

BTW... (Hope it won't create a controversy),

 

the depiction of a Snake (Naga) giving cover to

Vasudev & Krishna while crossing Yamuna gives rise

a suspicion.... was it meant to indicate that a Naga King

provided a covert support ?

 

regards

 

chakraborty

 

 

 

 

 

Sreenadh [sreesog]Wednesday, October 01, 2008 2:21 PM Subject: Some thoughts on ancient Siva-Naga-Arya -Dravida Civilizations

 

 

Some thoughts on ancient Siva-Naga-Arya -Dravida Civilizations

- Written by Sreenadh OG (Sreesog )

 

Naga and Arya

Going by ancient literature, folklore, legends and traditions, two names that comes up most frequently are Arya and Naga.

Nagas were the some of Kadru whom some scholars have taken as the personification of earth. So Nagas are the sons of this very earth â€" i.e. natives of India. Aryas alias Devas were the sons of Vinita, the bent one, regarded as the goddess of heaven. She had two sons â€" Aruna, the charioteer of Surya and Garuda, the carrier of Vishnu. As per the story, the relations between the cousins were strained.

This legend is noticeable. Earlier the Aryans alias Brahmins were the followers of Mitras, the Sun god. This is the stream of Aryans existed in Vedic period (whether it be Indian Aryans who preferred Mitra-Indra or the Iranian Avestan Aryans who preferred Mitra-Varuna).

To quote from the book Surviving Harappan Civilization by PC Kashyap - â€oeFrom the Vedic perspective there is no record or an illusion of Brahman-Naga confrontation. Traditions and legends speak only of cordial ties, inter marriages and fellow feelings between Nagas and Brahmins. There have been marriages between the two groups.

[it is interesting to note however that most of the Naga conflict seem to have been with Kshetriyas. With the Brahmanical hierarchy too, conflicts were between Brahmans and Kshetriyas; Parasuramaâ€s anihilation of the Kshetriyas 21 times being the most prominent. (Here Haiheyas (of Karta Veerarjuna tradition) are mentioned as Kshetriyas)]â€

But when it comes to the later stream of Aryas, i.e. the later day Arya (Brahmanical) Vaishnava cult (Garuda cult), the story takes another path! The enmity between Nagas and their cousin Garuda is a favorite theme in Indian literature and art. The Vaishnava cult became prominent and popular near the 2nd and 3rd century AD, especially during the period of Sungas and Guptas.

Let us look at historical background behind this change. To quote from the text ‘Surviving Harappan Civilization by PC Kashyap†â€" â€oeThe Allahabad pillar inscription mentions three Nagas among the kings of Northern India whose kingdoms were annexed to the Gupta empire. These kings are Nagasena, Ganapatinaga and Nagadatta. After the defeat of these rulers and their confederates the territory of the Naga formed part of Samudra Guptaâ€s empire. It appears that menaced by the expansionist ambitions and policies of Samudragupta, the Nagas and Sakas formed ties in an endeavor to withstand his onslaughts. In the battle of Eran, mentioned in Sridharavarmanâ€s inscription, the Nagas and the Sakas were exterminated and the territory was annexed to the Gupta empire.â€

It was thus 2nd and 3rd century Aryan Brahmanic Vaishnava cult that caused major destruction to the ancient Naga tribe and tradition that is more indigenous to India than the later day Aryan invaders.

Looking back in history we see that â€" The Sakas had several Naga connections. The Nanda Vamsa is Nagas. The Pallavas are Nagas. The Vakataka kingdom is a Naga kingdom. King Bhoja of 11th century was a Naga king. The Pallava Script modified as Grandha script later became the Malayalam script of Kerala, and the Kerala Nairs claim the ancestry of Nagas â€" the Naga saga continues! From the ancient past upto the 11th century AD Naga kings survived in some part or other of this country. Takshasila, Mahishmati, Padmavati, Bhogavati all being major Naga city centers in North India.

Iconographic history of Nagas

Who are these Nagas? Are they the people who created Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization - The Mohanjadaro and Harappan cities? No â€" it may not be so.

Of course, Nagas who belong to this land, were very familiar with it, and know what treasures lay beneath its surface. They used copper extensively and were agriculturists producing cereals and fiber. They were great builders too. Many great cities â€" the Karkotaka Naga capital Mahishmati, Takshasila, Bhogavati and many more belongs to them. The numerous locations all over the country which are still named after the Nagas for example Nagpura, Uragapura, Nagarakhanda, Nagarcoil, Nagara patana, Nagur etc indicate that they were spread throughout the country.

But still, the Naga total is ABSENT from Harappan seal. The Harappan civilization is Pre-Aryan, Pre-Naga, and Pre-Dravidian. Harappa belongs to the Saiva Agama tradition that forms the knowledge base providers for all the later day cultures. Yes, one of them was the Naga tradition and another the Vedic Aryan Brahmanic tradition. The legend of Naga cult gets represented extensively in the later day Indian iconography as PC Kahyap puts it â€" â€oeThe Cobra is also garland of Siva, a weapon in the hand of Ganesha, and an independent deity in his own regard with a special day of the year to himself, on which the orthodox can do no digging and use no metal. At the same time, he is the indian peasantâ€s favorite guardian of the fields, Kshetrapala, a name also given to Sivaâ€

â€oeShesha the great cobra finds employment in many different situations. He is supposed to bear the whole earth upon his head, to keep it from subsidence into the waters. He serves also as bed and canopy for Vishnu, who sleeps upon the waters and whose incarnation Krishna eventually became.â€

Thus goes the great icongraphic cobra legend of the Naga cult!

Harappans are NOT Dravidians

Harappans are NOT Dravidians as PC Kashyap puts it â€" â€oeA section of scholars has laid great store by the occurrence of Brahui in the western neighborhood of India usually to buttress the Dravidian thesis, but another group maintains that the Brahui speaking group may have reached their place in historic times, for Dravidians in considerable numbers went northwards as late as 11th century AD. Besides modern anthropology shows that the Brahuis are not of Dravidian race.

Had the authors of civilization been Dravidians, they would have still been found in the vast region of the sub-continent. It is inconceivable that after the eclipse or collapse of the civilization, all the citizens migrated only south of the Vindhyas along the west coast. Some of them at least must have escaped to the north east and if so there should have been some Dravidian characteristics still present among the populance. We have seen that Harappan colonies have been surviving upto Nirmad and Ranvin-Sarahan (both in Himachal Pradesh), but there is no trace of Dravidian blook or racial features in the upper Satlaj valley.â€

Thus it is evident that Harappan civilization does not belong to Dravidians, Aryans or Nagas. It was Pre-Dravidian, Pre-Aryan, Pre-Naga and was Saivate in nature â€" the Ancient Saiva Agama tradition. They must have co-existed with Naga-Aryan (and might be Dravidian) civilizations by the end of their decline.

Note:

1) Saiva â€" In the ancient past they must have survived as a religion and culture rather than a tribe. Later with the advent of numerous tribes and cults such as Naga, Aryan, Dravidian and so on they lost their identity and too got submerged in the diverse deity sea of India.

2) Naga â€" They remained a tribe rather than a religion, even though at some period of time they might have reflected the full nature of a religion. But later got submerged and lost identity in the diverse deity sea of India.

3) Aryan (Vedic Brahmanic & Vaishnava Brahmanic) â€" They remained both a tribe (Brahmanic) and religion (Vedic religion) at the same time. Later they too got submerged in the diverse deity sea of India, but kept and still keeping their identity through surviving Vedic literature.

4) Dravidian - They had identity both as a tribe and religion at the same time with own literature and worldview. But all this is already lost and by now they too got submerged diverse deity sea of India.

5) Jains â€" They remained a religion rather than a tribe and absorbed people from many tribes. Their deities had too much in common with the diverse deity sea of India. And with the passing of time they got submerged in the diverse deity sea of India. After some more days the Jains will not be considered as a religion at all, but only as a branch of diverse deity sea of India (now termed Hindu religion).

6) Buddhists â€" They remained a religion rather than a tribe and absorbed people from all the religions and tribes and became one of the first well-organized religions. They still remain a religion and keep their identity.

 

The diverse deity sea of India is known as Hindu religion today. Saiva-Naga-Arya- Jains-Dravidian is all just part of this broad definition of Hindu religion today.

- 0-

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji, //> Naga is associated with water and probably mountains too.> They are worshipper of Shiva ... and Vishnu takes rest in lap> of Naga.// As as PC Kahyap puts it - // • “The Cobra is also garland of Siva, a weapon in the hand of Ganesha, and an independent deity in his own regard with a special day of the year to himself, on which the orthodox can do no digging and use no metal. At the same time, he is the indian peasant’s favorite guardian of the fields, Kshetrapala, a name also given to Sivaâ€

“Shesha the great cobra finds employment in many different situations. He is supposed to bear the whole earth upon his head, to keep it from subsidence into the waters. He serves also as bed and canopy for Vishnu, who sleeps upon the waters and whose incarnation Krishna eventually became.â€// In one perspective this simply means that Nagas got them selves associated with several tribes, cults during their evolution. Initially they had a friendly relationship with the Shaiva cults (Cobra was the garland of Siva); Nagas were weapon in the hand of Vinyaka cults (Vinayakas are Saivait war lords with Ganesha as their special daity; Naga is the weapon in the hand of Ganesha); They had a special day of the year (means at some period of time Naga cult might have become an almost full fludged religion); They were good agriculturists with good understanding of nature and owned land property and had rulership (Naga is indian peasants favorite guardian of fields, Kshetrapala) - and so on. This line of interpretation can be much useful in understanding the history and development of Naga cults (or any other similar cults for that matter). Krishna conqurring Kaliya could indicate the conqur of some belligerent Naga king by the Vaishnava or Yadava tribe/cult. //> the depiction of a Snake (Naga) giving cover to> Vasudev & Krishna while crossing Yamuna gives rise> a suspicion.... was it meant to indicate that a Naga King> provided a covert support ?// May be or may not be. But the point to rememebr is that any similar interpretations hold weight if and only if supported by literary, archiological, lingustistic or logical evidences. If any such secondary evidence is available the above interpretation would be acceptable, otherwise not. [May the astrological dictom - 'dwi tri samvada bhaval' applies in such derivations too... Just joking....] //> They are progeny of Kashyap ..(Kush+Aap ?).// Could be. May be Kashyaps originally belongs to Kashmir region; the same is true for Nagas as well. This correlation prompts us to doubt a Naga Kashyap tradition - I think the puranic stories like the Kadru-Vinita one is in support of this too. (By the way some interpret Kashyap as our globe 'Earth'). //> But my doubt is about the Pallava group. Some people > connect them to Iran and Pahlavi... but most of the sites> about Kamboj group lay claim to this group.// I will try to answer this in detail in another mail. (By taking reference from PC Kashyap's book itself). //> Somehow my feeling is .. Naga is separate from the> Pallava / Kamboj group.// Could be...I am NOT an expert in such matters... I was just reflecting the argument given by PC Kashyap ji in his book//> the depiction of a Snake (Naga) giving cover to> Vasudev & Krishna while crossing Yamuna gives rise> a suspicion.... was it meant to indicate that a Naga King> provided a covert support ?// The first thing to know while trying to understand this in a historical perspective is that - "Krishna is NOT a Brahmanic Vashnava cult daity" (even though later it became projected so). Krishna is the god of Yadavas - a non Aryan tribe. Similar to many other non-aryan gods (such as Skanda Kartikeya of the Abhiras, Murukan of the Dravidians, The mother goess of the ancient harappens as Durga, Naga gods like Vasuki of the Naga peples as ornaments of gods and indipendent gods) which got adopted by the Vedic Aryans (Brahmans) - they ADOPTED Krishna from the non Aryan Yadava tribe. Of course it is possible that there was some connections and mutual help between the non-aryan Nagas and Yadavas. Considering the marriage relations between Naga Vakatakas and Vaishnava Guptas, even at the face of strong fights present between Vaishnava and Naga cults during does not prompts us to guess or assume that there was no connection between Naga and Vaishnava cults. In one situation one Naga can be a bed of Vishnu, at the same time some other Naga might become food for Garuda - all seems to be part of political turmoil; the winners story gains popularity.Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > Another excellent write up.> > I am expressing few confusion of mine about.. hope you will> clear that too. I am a layman... so please don't mind by> these half-informed opinions / doubts> _____> > Naga is associated with water and probably mountains too.> They are worshipper of Shiva ... and Vishnu takes rest in lap> of Naga.> > They are progeny of Kashyap ..(Kush+Aap ?).> > But my doubt is about the Pallava group. Some people > connect them to Iran and Pahlavi... but most of the sites> about Kamboj group lay claim to this group. > > Similarly, the Kamboj and Jat group also proclaim that> all Gupta (Samudragupta and others) belong to them.> Gupta is supposed to mean a soldier in frontiers.> ('Hope neelam Gupta-ji does not read this !!!). Kamboja> have been described as Kshatriya, Yavana and Daitya too.> > Somehow my feeling is .. Naga is separate from the> Pallava / Kamboj group.> > BTW... (Hope it won't create a controversy),> > the depiction of a Snake (Naga) giving cover to> Vasudev & Krishna while crossing Yamuna gives rise> a suspicion.... was it meant to indicate that a Naga King> provided a covert support ?> > regards> > chakraborty> > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog]> Wednesday, October 01, 2008 2:21 PM> > Some thoughts on ancient Siva-Naga-Arya> -Dravida Civilizations> > > > > Some thoughts on ancient Siva-Naga-Arya -Dravida Civilizations> > - Written by Sreenadh OG (Sreesog)> > > > Naga and Arya> > Going by ancient literature, folklore, legends and traditions,> two names that comes up most frequently are Arya and Naga. > > Nagas were the some of Kadru whom some scholars have taken as> the personification of earth. So Nagas are the sons of this very earth â…•R"> i.e. natives of India. Aryas alias Devas were the sons of Vinita, the bent> one, regarded as the goddess of heaven. She had two sons â…•R" Aruna, the> charioteer of Surya and Garuda, the carrier of Vishnu. As per the story, the> relations between the cousins were strained. > > This legend is noticeable. Earlier the Aryans alias Brahmins> were the followers of Mitras, the Sun god. This is the stream of Aryans> existed in Vedic period (whether it be Indian Aryans who preferred> Mitra-Indra or the Iranian Avestan Aryans who preferred Mitra-Varuna). > > To quote from the book Surviving Harappan Civilization by PC> Kashyap - â…•RoeFrom the Vedic perspective there is no record or an> illusion of Brahman-Naga confrontation. Traditions and legends speak only of> cordial ties, inter marriages and fellow feelings between Nagas and> Brahmins. There have been marriages between the two groups.> > [it is interesting to note however that most of the Naga> conflict seem to have been with Kshetriyas. With the Brahmanical hierarchy> too, conflicts were between Brahmans and Kshetriyas; Parasuramaâ…•Rs> anihilation of the Kshetriyas 21 times being the most prominent. (Here> Haiheyas (of Karta Veerarjuna tradition) are mentioned as Kshetriyas)]â…•R? > > But when it comes to the later stream of Aryas, i.e. the later> day Arya (Brahmanical) Vaishnava cult (Garuda cult), the story takes another> path! The enmity between Nagas and their cousin Garuda is a favorite theme> in Indian literature and art. The Vaishnava cult became prominent and> popular near the 2nd and 3rd century AD, especially during the period of> Sungas and Guptas.> > Let us look at historical background behind this change. To> quote from the text â…•R~Surviving Harappan Civilization by PC> Kashyapâ…•R â…•R" â…•RoeThe Allahabad pillar inscription mentions three> Nagas among the kings of Northern India whose kingdoms were annexed to the> Gupta empire. These kings are Nagasena, Ganapatinaga and Nagadatta. After> the defeat of these rulers and their confederates the territory of the Naga> formed part of Samudra Guptaâ…•Rs empire. It appears that menaced by> the expansionist ambitions and policies of Samudragupta, the Nagas and Sakas> formed ties in an endeavor to withstand his onslaughts. In the battle of> Eran, mentioned in Sridharavarmanâ…•Rs inscription, the Nagas and the> Sakas were exterminated and the territory was annexed to the Gupta> empire.â…•R? > > It was thus 2nd and 3rd century Aryan Brahmanic Vaishnava cult> that caused major destruction to the ancient Naga tribe and tradition that> is more indigenous to India than the later day Aryan invaders. > > Looking back in history we see that â…•R" The Sakas had several> Naga connections. The Nanda Vamsa is Nagas. The Pallavas are Nagas. The> Vakataka kingdom is a Naga kingdom. King Bhoja of 11th century was a Naga> king. The Pallava Script modified as Grandha script later became the> Malayalam script of Kerala, and the Kerala Nairs claim the ancestry of Nagas> â…•R" the Naga saga continues! From the ancient past upto the 11th century> AD Naga kings survived in some part or other of this country. Takshasila,> Mahishmati, Padmavati, Bhogavati all being major Naga city centers in North> India. > > > Iconographic history of Nagas > > > Who are these Nagas? Are they the people who created> Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization - The Mohanjadaro and Harappan cities? No> â…•R" it may not be so. > > Of course, Nagas who belong to this land, were very familiar> with it, and know what treasures lay beneath its surface. They used copper> extensively and were agriculturists producing cereals and fiber. They were> great builders too. Many great cities â…•R" the Karkotaka Naga capital> Mahishmati, Takshasila, Bhogavati and many more belongs to them. The> numerous locations all over the country which are still named after the> Nagas for example Nagpura, Uragapura, Nagarakhanda, Nagarcoil, Nagara> patana, Nagur etc indicate that they were spread throughout the country. > > But still, the Naga total is ABSENT from Harappan seal. The> Harappan civilization is Pre-Aryan, Pre-Naga, and Pre-Dravidian. Harappa> belongs to the Saiva Agama tradition that forms the knowledge base> providers for all the later day cultures. Yes, one of them was the Naga> tradition and another the Vedic Aryan Brahmanic tradition. The legend of> Naga cult gets represented extensively in the later day Indian iconography> as PC Kahyap puts it â…•R" â…•RoeThe Cobra is also garland of Siva, a weapon> in the hand of Ganesha, and an independent deity in his own regard with a> special day of the year to himself, on which the orthodox can do no digging> and use no metal. At the same time, he is the indian peasantâ…•Rs> favorite guardian of the fields, Kshetrapala, a name also given to Sivaâ…•R?> > â…•RoeShesha the great cobra finds employment in many different> situations. He is supposed to bear the whole earth upon his head, to keep it> from subsidence into the waters. He serves also as bed and canopy for> Vishnu, who sleeps upon the waters and whose incarnation Krishna eventually> became.â…•R?> > Thus goes the great icongraphic cobra legend of the Naga cult! > > Harappans are NOT Dravidians> > Harappans are NOT Dravidians as PC Kashyap puts it â…•R" â…•RoeA> section of scholars has laid great store by the occurrence of Brahui in the> western neighborhood of India usually to buttress the Dravidian thesis, but> another group maintains that the Brahui speaking group may have reached> their place in historic times, for Dravidians in considerable numbers went> northwards as late as 11th century AD. Besides modern anthropology shows> that the Brahuis are not of Dravidian race.> > Had the authors of civilization been Dravidians, they would> have still been found in the vast region of the sub-continent. It is> inconceivable that after the eclipse or collapse of the civilization, all> the citizens migrated only south of the Vindhyas along the west coast. Some> of them at least must have escaped to the north east and if so there should> have been some Dravidian characteristics still present among the populance.> We have seen that Harappan colonies have been surviving upto Nirmad and> Ranvin-Sarahan (both in Himachal Pradesh), but there is no trace of> Dravidian blook or racial features in the upper Satlaj valley.â…•R?> > Thus it is evident that Harappan civilization does not belong to> Dravidians, Aryans or Nagas. It was Pre-Dravidian, Pre-Aryan, Pre-Naga and> was Saivate in nature â…•R" the Ancient Saiva Agama tradition. They must> have co-existed with Naga-Aryan (and might be Dravidian) civilizations by> the end of their decline. > > Note:> > 1) Saiva â…•R" In the ancient past they must have survived as a> religion and culture rather than a tribe. Later with the advent of numerous> tribes and cults such as Naga, Aryan, Dravidian and so on they lost their> identity and too got submerged in the diverse deity sea of India.> > 2) Naga â…•R" They remained a tribe rather than a religion, even though> at some period of time they might have reflected the full nature of a> religion. But later got submerged and lost identity in the diverse deity sea> of India. > > 3) Aryan (Vedic Brahmanic & Vaishnava Brahmanic) â…•R" They remained> both a tribe (Brahmanic) and religion (Vedic religion) at the same time.> Later they too got submerged in the diverse deity sea of India, but kept and> still keeping their identity through surviving Vedic literature. > > 4) Dravidian - They had identity both as a tribe and religion at the> same time with own literature and worldview. But all this is already lost> and by now they too got submerged diverse deity sea of India. > > 5) Jains â…•R" They remained a religion rather than a tribe and> absorbed people from many tribes. Their deities had too much in common with> the diverse deity sea of India. And with the passing of time they got> submerged in the diverse deity sea of India. After some more days the Jains> will not be considered as a religion at all, but only as a branch of diverse> deity sea of India (now termed Hindu religion).> > 6) Buddhists â…•R" They remained a religion rather than a tribe and> absorbed people from all the religions and tribes and became one of the> first well-organized religions. They still remain a religion and keep their> identity.> > > > The diverse deity sea of India is known as Hindu religion today.> Saiva-Naga-Arya- Jains-Dravidian is all just part of this broad definition> of Hindu religion today. > > - 0-> > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji,

 

A request first.. please call me Chakraborty only. I am more

comfortable with that.

 

I am looking forward to your mail. In the mean time, I am putting

my ideas for your critical looks. My 'education' is really shallow

and based on net sites.

 

Kashyap may mean many things. There are too many stories (do not

know whether supported by Purana or not) about Kashyapa and many

origins are related to him.

 

But some people connect him to the " Kush people " . There is also few

sites where some people are searching their own origins. There is

one Dr. (David?) Kush who proclaims that original Kush people were

somewhere near Arabia, speaking Aramic. In U,P. too, there is a

caste of Kushwaha. And I have seen in some site, where they quote

something from some shastra, that the Kush ruled earth for 7000

years and then Kshatriyas are supposed to rule for two thousand

years. And by the way, whenever any tribe/race have been taken

into Hindu fold... the Pundits provide them 'Kashyapa Gotra'.

 

(Please note that I do not believe the marxist definition of

Gotra=cow-shed. I rather believe that Go /Gow refers to earth and

Gotra means people of earth who are following some Rishi's ideals /

rituals etc.

 

As per some versions of Ramayana, Luv was the son of Rama. Kush

was 'created' by Valmiki when one day he could not locate Luv. It

might indicate that Valmiki made an alliance of Luv with Kush people

with some foresight.

 

I am aware about Krishna / Krushna and possible non-aryan origin and

later incorporation in Hindu fold. Like Shiva was incorporated ..

but was commented of being " Nakula " -- meaning no family background.

 

Krushna .. as far as I know ... should mean cultivated (like

cultured) or just cultivated. (Just like Christ.) But he also

needed 'white' Balaram .. who is again proclaimed by few Bulgerian

and Croatians (Balaram .. Balagreeva.. Bulgeria). And Asoka Talegiri

and Vamadev shastri records that Yadava are Kshatriya.

 

However, coming to main point... MBH mentions Naga, Kamboja,

yavana , Danava , daitya etc. separately. And Gupta group is most

possibly Kamboja, who were present from Iran..Tibet..Burma..

Kambodia. And the Dinajpore inscriptions probably mentions that Pal

vansha of Bengal were Kamboja too.. who are also referred as Lunar

dynasty and Daitya too. So, fighting between Gupta and Naga need

no be an aryan vs Naga clash.

 

There were some discussion in net that Gupta group was not Aryan and

so the Record Keepers (The Brahmins) decided to ignore them and so

some part of our history is lacking enough clarity.

 

Anyway, my limited knowledge won't allow much discussions. 'Will be

happy if I get a reply.

 

regards

 

chakraborty

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh ji and group,

 

Thank you Sreenadh ji for the interesting and though-provoking write up.

Naga civilization seems to have its roots deeper than we can think of. The

iconography all over India is a fair proof of that.

 

There is a very interesting and indepth write up " Nagas in the Cultural

Decorations of Early West Orissan temples by Sasanka Sekhar Panda. The well

presented article also throws light on the spread of Naga civilization from

the ancient times. All interested members must read this article. And if

possible store a copy. It can be accessed online at

http://orissagov.nic.in/e-magazine/Journal/jounalvol1/pdf/orhj-4.pdf

 

There is another bit of historical info in modern searchlight that I'd like

to share. (I have not read the original research paper)

 

A Prominent historian and scholar Dr Naval Viyogi, worked on a research

project entitled 'History of the Indigenous People of India', and was also

given Dr Ambedkar International Literary Award, 2002, for his book 'Nagas —

the Ancient Rules of India, their Origin and History' gives a good account

in his works.

 

//Dr Viyogi feels that Modern historians are distorting history and writing

history according to Brahmanical thoughts. No one has bothered to pay

attention to the marvellous history of native people. He says that the

native people, the Nagas, were great producers of varied products like

pottery, weaving, tools and ornaments. Each individual was an adept artisan.

The Aryans who came later were non-productive. He says the distorted history

is a product of the Aryans who were invaders and 'barbarians in general'. He

has been able to prove that native naga people were highly civilised. They

had highly developed social, religious, economic and political systems. They

were warriors and ideal citizens. They founded the Indus Valley

Civilisation, one of the oldest civilisations.

 

He says that during the Aryan invasion, the Native Nagas were pushed towards

the North-East. Their glorious rule of 2500 years ended. He also says that

with Aryans the Indians became non-productive. The people developed an

attitude of no respect for work. No dignity of labour. The invaders that

came later just exploited us.//

 

Hope you'll find this useful.

 

Regards

Neelam

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji (sorry, I an unable to drop that ji), Thanks for the informative mail. All that info on Kush ppl Kashyapa correlation was all new to me. Thanks for the info. |//> (Please note that I do not believe the marxist definition of > Gotra=cow-shed. I rather believe that Go /Gow refers to earth and > Gotra means people of earth who are following some Rishi's ideals / > rituals etc.// Gotara = cow-shed?! That meaning was truly new to me! Today I happen to know about some similar words as well. For example - Agrahara = Tax Free Jagadamba = Universal Mother Ambika = Little Mother Words are curious, informative and may hide meanings and pointers that we may not even think of - but still straight and evident! And some in depth interpretation (Like - Gow refers to earth and Gotra means people of earth who are following some Rishi's ideals / rituals etc) can reveal much more info related to allied subjects and knowledge. The same trend I observe in your following explanation as well. //> I am aware about Krishna / Krushna and possible non-aryan origin and > later incorporation in Hindu fold. Like Shiva was incorporated .. > but was commented of being "Nakula" -- meaning no family background.// True. Krishna = Plough the land. The word 'Krishna' has got numerous nirukti definitions that tries to connect it to 'Karshati' (Plough the land). This interpretation was known to me. But the Nakula = Na-Kula (without Kula = Without Family back ground) was truly new to me, even though I knew that Siva was worshiped throughout India as 'Nakuleesa' for long! Thanks for that unique bit! //> Krushna .. as far as I know ... should mean cultivated (like > cultured) or just cultivated. (Just like Christ.) // True.//But he also needed 'white' Balaram .. who is again proclaimed by few Bulgerian > and Croatians (Balaram .. Balagreeva.. Bulgeria). And Asoka Talegiri > and Vamadev shastri records that Yadava are Kshatriya. // Oh! No idea - all that info new to me! //> However, coming to main point... MBH mentions Naga, Kamboja, > yavana , Danava , daitya etc. separately. And Gupta group is most > possibly Kamboja, who were present from Iran..Tibet..Burma.. > Kambodia. And the Dinajpore inscriptions probably mentions that Pal > vansha of Bengal were Kamboja too.. who are also referred as Lunar > dynasty and Daitya too. So, fighting between Gupta and Naga need > no be an aryan vs Naga clash.// Oh! Again I am awe struck by this flow of info. Thanks - but I shrink, keeping may tail behind the legs.... - Sorry, I am not an expert in this area......Thanks for the info. //> > There were some discussion in net that Gupta group was not Aryan and > so the Record Keepers (The Brahmins) decided to ignore them and so > some part of our history is lacking enough clarity.// Ha..Ha.. that was excellent; The Record Keepers = The Brahmins; well said!//> Anyway, my limited knowledge won't allow much discussions. 'Will be > happy if I get a reply.// I also have only a very very limited knowledge in history - and this the very reason we can be polite, humble and open to learning and can have discussions! Actually all of being learners only with limited knowledge alone itself is the nature of this whole group, and that is what makes this group unique. So let us continue (as we can; up to we can - and not beyond) till we feel doing so. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "chakrathewheel" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > A request first.. please call me Chakraborty only. I am more > comfortable with that.> > I am looking forward to your mail. In the mean time, I am putting > my ideas for your critical looks. My 'education' is really shallow > and based on net sites.> > Kashyap may mean many things. There are too many stories (do not > know whether supported by Purana or not) about Kashyapa and many > origins are related to him.> > But some people connect him to the "Kush people". There is also few > sites where some people are searching their own origins. There is > one Dr. (David?) Kush who proclaims that original Kush people were > somewhere near Arabia, speaking Aramic. In U,P. too, there is a > caste of Kushwaha. And I have seen in some site, where they quote > something from some shastra, that the Kush ruled earth for 7000 > years and then Kshatriyas are supposed to rule for two thousand > years. And by the way, whenever any tribe/race have been taken > into Hindu fold... the Pundits provide them 'Kashyapa Gotra'.> > (Please note that I do not believe the marxist definition of > Gotra=cow-shed. I rather believe that Go /Gow refers to earth and > Gotra means people of earth who are following some Rishi's ideals / > rituals etc.> > As per some versions of Ramayana, Luv was the son of Rama. Kush > was 'created' by Valmiki when one day he could not locate Luv. It > might indicate that Valmiki made an alliance of Luv with Kush people > with some foresight.> > I am aware about Krishna / Krushna and possible non-aryan origin and > later incorporation in Hindu fold. Like Shiva was incorporated .. > but was commented of being "Nakula" -- meaning no family background.> > Krushna .. as far as I know ... should mean cultivated (like > cultured) or just cultivated. (Just like Christ.) But he also > needed 'white' Balaram .. who is again proclaimed by few Bulgerian > and Croatians (Balaram .. Balagreeva.. Bulgeria). And Asoka Talegiri > and Vamadev shastri records that Yadava are Kshatriya. > > However, coming to main point... MBH mentions Naga, Kamboja, > yavana , Danava , daitya etc. separately. And Gupta group is most > possibly Kamboja, who were present from Iran..Tibet..Burma.. > Kambodia. And the Dinajpore inscriptions probably mentions that Pal > vansha of Bengal were Kamboja too.. who are also referred as Lunar > dynasty and Daitya too. So, fighting between Gupta and Naga need > no be an aryan vs Naga clash.> > There were some discussion in net that Gupta group was not Aryan and > so the Record Keepers (The Brahmins) decided to ignore them and so > some part of our history is lacking enough clarity.> > Anyway, my limited knowledge won't allow much discussions. 'Will be > happy if I get a reply.> > regards> > chakraborty>

[Guest guest]

Dear Neelam ji, Thanks for the informative mail and pdf. //> He says that during the Aryan invasion, the Native Nagas were pushed towards> the North-East. Their glorious rule of 2500 years ended.// This I don't agree and seems to be totally wrong. Since - 1) The Nagas we are speaking about is NOT the so called Nagas of Nagaland or the north eastern so called Naga tribe, but about the ancient indigenous people of India. The term as ascribed to north eastern people is of recent origin. The word Naga as used in Assam means 'Naked'. They the people of planes applied this term to refer to many the tribes of north eastern hills as a whole. The British people picked up this term as used by Assam ppl and started using it to refer to the many tribes of north eastern hills. The point to know from a historical perspective is - the North Eastern people NEVER used to refer to themselves as Nagas in the ancient past but instead used several other words to refer to themselves. So understand clearly that the Naga and Naga cult we are speaking about in no way refer to or connected to the tribes of the north eastern state Nagaland (erroniously named so). We are speaking about a great tradition, an ancient culture, that built numerous ancient cities such as Takshasila (in Pakistan), Karkotaka city (in Kashmir), Padmavati (near Gwalior), Mahishmati, Bhogavati and so on. We are speaking about a great culture that contributed legendary scholars like Kapila Muni, Panini, Patanjali, Nagarguna and so on. We are speaking about a great tradition in which the Kings of Kashmir, Vakataka kings, Pallavas, Bhoja Raja etc was born or connected to. Please note this whole point and difference clearly. 2) Their glories never ended and still continues! All the religions that came to india got submerged in to the culture and tradition initiated or caused by this great Naga tradition. The Naga tradition is at the foundations of Indian Tantric tradition - assimilating everything into it. It is the cult and culture of the people of India, the common mass. Even though with ebb and flows, it survived till date and will continue to d0 so! Of course it is true that these days may not be its golden days, now they may not be the only cult, or the cult with an upper hand - but that is not much important. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "neelam gupta" <neelamgupta07 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji and group,> > Thank you Sreenadh ji for the interesting and though-provoking write up.> Naga civilization seems to have its roots deeper than we can think of. The> iconography all over India is a fair proof of that.> > There is a very interesting and indepth write up "Nagas in the Cultural> Decorations of Early West Orissan temples by Sasanka Sekhar Panda. The well> presented article also throws light on the spread of Naga civilization from> the ancient times. All interested members must read this article. And if> possible store a copy. It can be accessed online at> http://orissagov.nic.in/e-magazine/Journal/jounalvol1/pdf/orhj-4.pdf> > There is another bit of historical info in modern searchlight that I'd like> to share. (I have not read the original research paper)> > A Prominent historian and scholar Dr Naval Viyogi, worked on a research> project entitled 'History of the Indigenous People of India', and was also> given Dr Ambedkar International Literary Award, 2002, for his book 'Nagas —> the Ancient Rules of India, their Origin and History' gives a good account> in his works.> > //Dr Viyogi feels that Modern historians are distorting history and writing> history according to Brahmanical thoughts. No one has bothered to pay> attention to the marvellous history of native people. He says that the> native people, the Nagas, were great producers of varied products like> pottery, weaving, tools and ornaments. Each individual was an adept artisan.> The Aryans who came later were non-productive. He says the distorted history> is a product of the Aryans who were invaders and 'barbarians in general'. He> has been able to prove that native naga people were highly civilised. They> had highly developed social, religious, economic and political systems. They> were warriors and ideal citizens. They founded the Indus Valley> Civilisation, one of the oldest civilisations.> > He says that during the Aryan invasion, the Native Nagas were pushed towards> the North-East. Their glorious rule of 2500 years ended. He also says that> with Aryans the Indians became non-productive. The people developed an> attitude of no respect for work. No dignity of labour. The invaders that> came later just exploited us.//> > Hope you'll find this useful.> > Regards> Neelam>

[Guest guest]

Dear Neelam-ji and group,

 

Thanks for sharing such wonderful informations.

 

One point only... as mentioned in the essay (Chitrangada and

Babhruvahana), I don't remeber them as Naga... rather Ulupi was

Naga. May be I am wrong here. And regarding locations of any race,

it is difficult to pinpoint. People disperse and takes their myths

along with them. after hundreds of years, the myth gets woven around

that locality.

 

Like Vana.. Usha.. Aniruddha. People in Himachal (Ukhimath) claim

Usha belonged to them and claim the fighting took place. People in

Assam (Bodo group.. a Tibeto-Burmese group.. worshipper of Shiva..

probably Kirat / Asur) claim that Usha was their daughter. The

fighting took place near a place, presently known as Tezpur /

Sonitpur. Anyway, obviously the fighting had to take place in one

location only. And the myth migrated along with people to different

places.

 

The Patala connection with Naga is intigruing... generally it should

mean just opposite point on earth.. and few people connect it to

South America. Apparently, as per claims of some Vastu experts, the

Temples etc in S. America (Pre-Inca / Maya part) were built as per

Sthapatya Vidya.. and the ratio of different parts of temple match

to the rules.

 

And regarding 'uncivilized Aryans' ... difficult to comment. There

is one Sanskrit expert in W Bengal (forgot his name.. probably

Nripendra Kishor Bhaduri ..or something like that) who writes on the

possible meanings of different mythologies. In one esaay, he tried

to interpret the meaning of Mantra-s recited during Vivah. He tells

that Vadhu (wife) is related to Vahan (carry)... and the mantras

tell that " we do not know how to weave.. we do not know how to cook

properly.. teach us all those things " . The writer suggested that

Aryans 'carried away' the brides from non-aryans by force. Anyway,

being fully ignorant of Sanskrit (except some words which are used

frequently in Bengali in Tatsama form), I can not comment on that.

Probably the Sanskrit experts here can tell us about that.

 

And I agree fully with Sreenadh-ji that words carry many meanings

and histories with them. If we can look for that, may meaning will

be clear.

 

I will give an example here. The river Brahmaputra in Assam.. it

is also known as Louhitya (of red color) in sanskrit. But when I

tried to look deeper, I found the Bodo called it La-aitta (Big

river). And the local Assamese call it Luit or Bura Luit (Bura -

buddha=old). And in old Bodo language, Aa-cham means low lying

valley. So, it becomes clear who were there in Assam for long time.

 

Okay, it is getting longish.

 

regards

 

chakraborty

[Guest guest]

, " chakrathewheel "

<CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

>

> Dear Neelam-ji and group,

>

> Thanks for sharing such wonderful informations.

>

> One point only... as mentioned in the essay (Chitrangada and

> Babhruvahana), I don't remeber them as Naga... rather Ulupi was

> Naga. May be I am wrong here. And regarding locations of any race,

> it is difficult to pinpoint. People disperse and takes their myths

> along with them. after hundreds of years, the myth gets woven around

> that locality.

>

> Like Vana.. Usha.. Aniruddha. People in Himachal (Ukhimath) claim

> Usha belonged to them and claim the fighting took place. People in

> Assam (Bodo group.. a Tibeto-Burmese group.. worshipper of Shiva..

> probably Kirat / Asur) claim that Usha was their daughter. The

> fighting took place near a place, presently known as Tezpur /

> Sonitpur. Anyway, obviously the fighting had to take place in one

> location only. And the myth migrated along with people to different

> places.

>

> The Patala connection with Naga is intigruing... generally it should

> mean just opposite point on earth.. and few people connect it to

> South America. Apparently, as per claims of some Vastu experts, the

> Temples etc in S. America (Pre-Inca / Maya part) were built as per

> Sthapatya Vidya.. and the ratio of different parts of temple match

> to the rules.

>

> And regarding 'uncivilized Aryans' ... difficult to comment. There

> is one Sanskrit expert in W Bengal (forgot his name.. probably

> Nripendra Kishor Bhaduri ..or something like that) who writes on the

> possible meanings of different mythologies. In one esaay, he tried

> to interpret the meaning of Mantra-s recited during Vivah. He tells

> that Vadhu (wife) is related to Vahan (carry)... and the mantras

> tell that " we do not know how to weave.. we do not know how to cook

> properly.. teach us all those things " . The writer suggested that

> Aryans 'carried away' the brides from non-aryans by force. Anyway,

> being fully ignorant of Sanskrit (except some words which are used

> frequently in Bengali in Tatsama form), I can not comment on that.

> Probably the Sanskrit experts here can tell us about that.

>

> And I agree fully with Sreenadh-ji that words carry many meanings

> and histories with them. If we can look for that, may meaning will

> be clear.

>

> I will give an example here. The river Brahmaputra in Assam.. it

> is also known as Louhitya (of red color) in sanskrit. But when I

> tried to look deeper, I found the Bodo called it La-aitta (Big

> river). And the local Assamese call it Luit or Bura Luit (Bura -

> buddha=old). And in old Bodo language, Aa-cham means low lying

> valley. So, it becomes clear who were there in Assam for long time.

>

> Okay, it is getting longish.

>

> regards

>

> chakraborty

>