Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

[Guest guest]

Sphuji Dhwaja

and Meena Raja

- Written by Sreenadh OG

Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,

beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love

to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as

his flag pole) rather than calling them by their own name. Why – I will

explain.

The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.

Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit also means

Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means

flag pole. Thus Sphuji Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'.

This is none but Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex

and beauty. Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology.

In astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.

The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama

Varyar in his book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is

interesting to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings

such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu, Cleanliness,

Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus the flag pole'.

`MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of

the zodiac is the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star.

The biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the

`morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the flag post)

is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This god is known by many

names – Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are

just some among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus

the King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean one

and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and `Meena Raja'

(Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same – Venus, the morning star, the symbolic

significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love, beauty, well being and

happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja hora are present in Meenaraja

hora as well. Both of them consider the ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400)

as the originator of the astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and

systems used by them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still

totally Indian in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer

to and use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the

original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to the

Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara

and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the text with a prayer to Prajapati

(Brahma).

As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a

Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that

flourished within India, around Gujarat.

Note the following points –

The names Sphuji Dwaja and

Meena Raja mean the same – i.e. Sukra Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama

Deva.Both of them never refer to

any god or tradition outside IndiaBoth of them pray to Indian

gods and starts the textBoth of them possibly lived

some where near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure

that Sphuji Dwaja lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not

known with correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to

the period of Sphuji Dwaja)

- 0 -

[Guest guest]

Dear All, Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means - * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR * Venus the flag pole OR * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)

Some questions:

 

Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva tradition?

If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by chance?

Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention Veda-Vedanga etc as well?

Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?

Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?

If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are these Yavanas?

If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?

If even as per them this knowledge was part of “Agama Sastraâ€, they what they mean by the word ‘Agamaâ€?

Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:

Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

- Written by Sreenadh OG

Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love, beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.

The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable. Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty. Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.

The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu, Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus the flag pole'.

`MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love, beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).

As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that flourished within India, around Gujarat.

Note the following points ?

 

The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. Both of them never refer to any god or tradition outside India Both of them pray to Indian gods and starts the text Both of them possibly lived some where near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period of Sphuji Dwaja)

- 0 -

[Guest guest]

hare rama krishna

dear sreenadh ji

 

we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their litterature .

 

it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .

 

you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they follows hindu gods .

 

regrds sunil nair

om shreem mahalaxmai namah

, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> > Dear All,> Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> * Venus the flag pole OR> * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > Some questions:> > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> tradition?> * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> chance?> * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> these Yavanas?> * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> * If even as per them this knowledge was part of “Agama> Sastraâ€, they what they mean by the word ‘Agamaâ€?> > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> the flag pole'.> > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > Note the following points ?> > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> of Sphuji Dwaja)> > - 0 ->

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,

 

Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.

 

Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,

there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava

by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came to

know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards

who were present could not understand the language.

 

Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in

Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite

 

Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with

people who uses fast horses.

 

regards

 

chakraborty

 

sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala]Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

 

 

 

hare rama krishna

dear sreenadh ji

 

we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their litterature .

 

it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .

 

you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they follows hindu gods .

 

regrds sunil nair

om shreem mahalaxmai namah

, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> > Dear All,> Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> * Venus the flag pole OR> * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > Some questions:> > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> tradition?> * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> chance?> * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> these Yavanas?> * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â€oeAgama> Sastraâ€, they what they mean by the word ‘Agamaâ€?> > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> the flag pole'.> > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > Note the following points ?> > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> of Sphuji Dwaja)> > - 0 ->

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji and Sunil Nairji,

 

Yes, the Yavanas are not necessarily the Greeks alone. When they were chased out due to their violation of societal norms they went out in all directions. Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom of Narakasura), where they excelled in Jyotish Shastra.

 

Because of the attemts of David Pingree to show that the Indians learnt everyrthing including astrology from the Greeks some Indian scholars (?) like Avtar Krishenji think that the Indians learnt Astrology from the Greek Yavanas. Avtarji thinks that Varahamihira copied from Sphuridhvaja as he,like many others, wrongly believe that the date of Varahamihira was 505 CE. Te actual date of Varahamihira was124 BCE, which is much before the date of Sphuridhvaja. Avtarji did not know the difference between the Shakendrakala,mentioned by Varahamihira,and the Shakanta kala,mentioned by Brahmagupta. That is why he shouts from rooftop that Vrahamihira is a Charlatan. He does not know that if Varahamihira were alive today he would have called Avtarji as Charlatan.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:01 AM

 

 

 

 

hare rama krishna

dear sreenadh ji

 

we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their litterature .

 

it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .

 

you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they follows hindu gods .

 

regrds sunil nair

om shreem mahalaxmai namah

ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> > Dear All,> Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> * Venus the flag pole OR> * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > Some questions:> > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> tradition?> * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> chance?> * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> * Why the names of both of them are

totally Indian in nature?> * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> these Yavanas?> * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> * If even as per them this knowledge was part of “Agama> Sastra”, they what they mean by the word ‘Agama”?> > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and

Meena> Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> such as

Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> the flag pole'.> > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> star,

the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to

represent a> Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > Note the following points ?> > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> of Sphuji Dwaja)> > - 0 ->

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil ji, // or community influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many// We already know about the Tajik astrology that came from Tajikistan. But there were other influences as well. If you are interested in reading about the ancient Harappan-Croetian interactions, then here is a doc: Ancient%20Indian%20Culture-History/Harappan-Croatian%20Cultural%20Interations.doc Love and regards,Sreenadh , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:>> > > > hare rama krishna> > dear sreenadh ji> > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm> any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period> .So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit> meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva> vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And> each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their> litterature .> > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> they follows hindu gods .> > > > regrds sunil nair> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> >> > Dear All,> > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means> -> > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > * Venus the flag pole OR> > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> >> > Some questions:> >> >> > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > tradition?> > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen> by> > chance?> > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> mention> > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> are> > these Yavanas?> > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of “Agama> > Sastraâ€, they what they mean by the word ‘Agamaâ€?> >> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> >> >> > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> >> > - Written by Sreenadh OG> >> > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> Meena> > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> than> > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> >> > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> but> > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> beauty.> > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> >> > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> interesting> > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> meanings> > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > the flag pole'.> >> > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> the> > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> Sphujidwaja> > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> Indian> > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> the> > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> >> > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> that> > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> >> > Note the following points ?> >> > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji> Dwaja> > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> period> > of Sphuji Dwaja)> >> > - 0 -> >>

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Dear Chakraborty ji and all, Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu.....". How will you translate it? Please opt from the following choices - 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana) 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans) 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener) 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans) 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha) 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans) 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana) 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came to> know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> who were present could not understand the language.> > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > people who uses fast horses. > > regards> > chakraborty> > > sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala]> Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of> varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud> think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long> back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of> this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence> in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they> follows hindu gods .> > > > regrds sunil nair > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > , "Sreenadh" sreesog@> wrote:> >> > > > Dear All,> > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > * Venus the flag pole OR> > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > Some questions:> > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > tradition?> > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> > chance?> > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> > these Yavanas?> > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â…•RoeAgama> > Sastraâ…•R?, they what they mean by the word â…•R~Agamaâ…•R??> > > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > the flag pole'.> > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > Note the following points ?> > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > - 0 -> >> > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

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Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom of Narakasura)// Can you let me know your reference. I am a bit confused about the above statement, due to the following - * I heard that Pragjyotishpur is somewhere near Assam, and also that during Mahabharata period this region was part of Kirata Kingdom (and not Asura kingdom). * It is true that many believe that Narakasura was from Assam region. * I am yet to see any reference that states that - "Mayasura was a Yavana"! What was your reference for stating so? * I don't know about any reference based on which I could state that - "Mayasura was from the kingdom of Narakasura", or that "Mayasura was from Pragjyotisha". What was your reference for stating so? Note: Please ntoe that if the above statement by you is based on proper reference, then it is much valuable. Love and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji and Sunil Nairji,> ?> Yes, the Yavanas are not necessarily the Greeks alone. When they were chased out due? to?their violation of societal norms they went out in all directions. Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom of Narakasura), where they excelled in Jyotish Shastra.> ?> Because of the attemts of David Pingree to show that the Indians learnt everyrthing including astrology from the Greeks some Indian scholars (?) like Avtar Krishenji think that the Indians learnt Astrology from the Greek Yavanas. Avtarji thinks that Varahamihira copied from Sphuridhvaja as he,like many others, wrongly believe that the date of Varahamihira was 505 CE.?Te actual date of Varahamihira? was124 BCE, which is much before the date of Sphuridhvaja. Avtarji did not?know? the difference between the Shakendrakala,mentioned by Varahamihira,and the Shakanta kala,mentioned by Brahmagupta. That is why he shouts from rooftop that Vrahamihira is a Charlatan. He does not know that if??Varahamihira? were alive today he would have called Avtarji as Charlatan.> ?> Regards,> ?> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:01 AM> > > > > > > > ?> hare rama krishna > dear sreenadh ji > ?> ? we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> ?> it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and ?i am using in large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire?or ?community influence ?may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> ?> you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they follows hindu gods .> ?> regrds sunil nair > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" sreesog@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear All,> > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > * Venus the flag pole OR> > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > Some questions:> > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > tradition?> > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> > chance?> > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> > these Yavanas?> > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of ?Agama> > Sastra?, they what they mean by the word ?Agama??> > > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > the flag pole'.> > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > Note the following points ?> > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > - 0 -> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji,

 

Please take it easy.

 

I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to

something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some

extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a

comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana

and Mleccha may or may not be same.

 

So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here.

It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things

with commoners like us.

 

Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.

 

I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.

 

regards

 

Chakraborty P L

 

 

 

 

Sreenadh [sreesog]Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

 

 

Dear Chakraborty ji and all, Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu.....". How will you translate it? Please opt from the following choices - 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana) 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans) 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener) 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans) 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha) 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans) 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana) 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came to> know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> who were present could not understand the language.> > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > people who uses fast horses. > > regards> > chakraborty> > > sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala]> Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of> varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud> think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long> back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of> this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence> in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they> follows hindu gods .> > > > regrds sunil nair > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > , "Sreenadh" sreesog@> wrote:> >> > > > Dear All,> > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > * Venus the flag pole OR> > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > Some questions:> > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > tradition?> > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> > chance?> > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> > these Yavanas?> > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > Sastraâ...*R?, they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ...*R??> > > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > the flag pole'.> > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > Note the following points ?> > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > - 0 -> >> > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji, I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu...". The popular meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your choice and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a valuable conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out, that came to my mind. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > Please take it easy.> > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> with commoners like us. > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > regards> > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog]> Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu.....". How will you> translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Chakraborty, PL"> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came to> > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > regards> > > > chakraborty> > > > > > sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala@]> > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition> of> > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We> shud> > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine> long> > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of> > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> influence> > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> they> > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > , "Sreenadh" sreesog@> > wrote:> > >> > > > > > Dear All,> > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > tradition?> > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> > > chance?> > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> > > these Yavanas?> > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > > Sastraâ...*R?, they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ...*R??> > > > > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > > the flag pole'.> > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > - 0 -> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India.> The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to> this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may> contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not> the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this> message and any attachments.> >> > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji,

 

I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.

My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama'

words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand

the roots of words and our history.

 

So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood language,

the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have misunderstood

your good intentions.

 

Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the logical

path may be based on as below :

 

1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to

convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words

have changed over the times ?

 

2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation

of the Mleccha and Yavana ?

 

3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha

together (as in the quote provided by you).

 

My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.

Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to

mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea.

Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from

Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me.

 

Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed

few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane) indicates

different community.

 

______________________

 

Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya-ji,

 

The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been

described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...

Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was

also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,

Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case

of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these

kings too.

 

There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in

Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described

variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also

a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war

between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.

 

I will search this out and send the link

 

 

regards

 

chakraborty

 

 

 

 

Sreenadh [sreesog]Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

 

Dear Chakraborty ji, I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu...". The popular meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your choice and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a valuable conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out, that came to my mind. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > Please take it easy.> > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> with commoners like us. > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > regards> > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog]> Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu.....". How will you> translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Chakraborty, PL"> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came to> > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > regards> > > > chakraborty> > > > > > sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala@]> > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition> of> > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We> shud> > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine> long> > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of> > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> influence> > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> they> > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > , "Sreenadh" sreesog@> > wrote:> > >> > > > > > Dear All,> > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > tradition?> > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> > > chance?> > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> > > these Yavanas?> > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > > Sastraâ...*R?, they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ...*R??> > > > > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > > the flag pole'.> > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > - 0 -> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India.> The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to> this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may> contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not> the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this> message and any attachments.> >> > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakraborty ji, Thanks for the informative write-up. //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> have changed over the times ?// I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must be different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a limited meaning. //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> of the Mleccha and Yavana ?// I am yet to find any such reference. //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> together (as in the quote provided by you).// Except the qute "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam" (provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet to find any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana. //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too think the same.//> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. // This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha to refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic trend came down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that the word Mleccha refer to the original Indigenous people of India. Also note that Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to river/sea, and also that the original major god of Avastan people (Atharva Vedic?) is Varuna, the sea god. (Any connection?). May be this word refers to Meluhans (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous scholars – who knows. In Kerala too the word 'Yavana" was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to refer to Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was - 1) once used to refer to Muslims 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran) 3) once used to refer to Greek 4) once used to refer to Ionians 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!) May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them it was used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general meaning "Foreigners". While considering statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which meaning we should consider - we may wonder.Love and regards,Sreenadh--In , "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.> My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama' > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand> the roots of words and our history.> > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood language,> the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have misunderstood> your good intentions.> > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the logical> path may be based on as below :> > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> have changed over the times ?> > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> of the Mleccha and Yavana ?> > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> together (as in the quote provided by you).> > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. > > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed> few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane) indicates> different community.> > ______________________> > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya-ji,> > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...> Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,> Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case> of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these> kings too.> > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described> variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war> between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.> > I will search this out and send the link> > > regards> > chakraborty> > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog]> Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM> > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct> meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu...". The popular> meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded> outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is> wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one> of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your choice> and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting> arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a valuable> conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we> all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to> answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no> ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out,> that came to my mind. > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Chakraborty, PL"> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > Please take it easy.> > > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> > and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> > with commoners like us. > > > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > > > regards> > > > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@]> > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > > > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu.....". How will you> > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "Chakraborty, PL"> > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came to> > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > > > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > > > regards> > > > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala@]> > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > > > > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> tradition> > of> > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We> > shud> > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine> > long> > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> of> > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> > influence> > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> > they> > > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > > > > , "Sreenadh" sreesog@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means> -> > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > > tradition?> > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen> by> > > > chance?> > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> mention> > > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> are> > > > these Yavanas?> > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > > > Sastraâ...*R?, they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ...*R??> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> Meena> > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> than> > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> but> > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> beauty.> > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> interesting> > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> meanings> > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > > > the flag pole'.> > > > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> the> > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> Sphujidwaja> > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> Indian> > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> the> > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> that> > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji> Dwaja> > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> period> > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > > > - 0 -> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> India.> > The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments> to> > this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and> may> > contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are> not> > the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy> this> > e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of> this> > message and any attachments.> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India.> The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to> this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may> contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not> the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this> message and any attachments.> >> > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji,

 

I know you are well aware of the following. But providing it anyway.

 

This is netlink about Baal Kanda of Ramayana __Bala Kanda - Chapter [sarga] 55 ,_.http://www.valmikiramayan.net/bala/sarga55/bala_55_frame.htm

Following is the description about birth of Yavana, Mleccha, Pallava etc from Kamadhenu.

During the confrontation of Vashistha & Visvamitra

tatasyaa hu..mkaarato jaataaH kaa.mbojaa ravi sannibhaaH |uudhasaH tu atha sa.njaataaH pahlavaaH shastra paaNayaH || 1-55-2yoni deshaat ca yavanaH shakR^i deshaat shakaaH tathaa |roma kuupeSu mlecChaaH ca haariitaaH sa kiraatakaaH || 1-55-3

2, 3. tasyaaH hum kaarataH= of her, from 'hum' mooing; ravi sannibhaaH kaambojaa jaataaH= Sun, similar in shine, Kaamboja-s, are born; atha= further; uudhasaH= from udder; shastra paaNayaH= weapons, in hands; pahlavaaH sanjaataaH= Pahlava-s, are born; yoni deshaat yavanaH ca= from privates, area, Yavana-s, also - are born; tathaa= likewise; shakR^i deshaat shakaaH= from rectal, area, Shaka-s - are born; roma kuupeSu mlecChaaH ca= from hair, roots, Mleccha-s, also - are born; sa kiraatakaaH= with, Kirataka-s; haariitaaH= Haariitaa-s - are also born.

"From the 'hums' of her mooing Kaamboja-s similar to sunshine are born, from her udder Pahlava-s wielding weaponry are born, from the area of her privates Yavana-s, likewise from her rectal area Shaka-s, and from her hair-roots Mleccha-s, Haariitaa-s along with Kirataka-s are issued forth. [1-55-2, 3]

______________________________

The above actually does not make sense when considered literally.

 

But if we consider the Cow as Prithvi / indigenous people who were supporting Vashistha, then

some meaning can be made out of this. This will mean that,

 

All these people (Shaka, yavana, Mleccha, Pallava, Kamboja, Kirataka, Haarita) people

were part of a same conglomerate of people. They united to save Vashistha.

 

Anyway, the above can only be a pointer. Because like most things, the lines can be interpreted in different manner too.

 

 

regards

 

chakraborty

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,

 

Yes it is in the Mahabharata. Bhagadatta, the son of Narakasura, the king of Pragjyptiusha, led a group of yavanas to Yudhisthira's yajna. Bhagadatta also participated in the Mahabharata war and sided with the Kauravas. I do not have the ready reference with me to cite as I read it years ago. Pragjyotisha, as the name signifies, means that it is the ancient-most place, where Jyotisha was practised.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:

Sreenadh <sreesog Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 10:03 PM

 

 

 

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom of Narakasura)/ / Can you let me know your reference. I am a bit confused about the above statement, due to the following - * I heard that Pragjyotishpur is somewhere near Assam, and also that during Mahabharata period this region was part of Kirata Kingdom (and not Asura kingdom). * It is true that many believe that Narakasura was from Assam region. * I am yet to see any reference that states that - "Mayasura was a Yavana"! What was your reference for stating so? * I don't know about any reference based on which I could state that - "Mayasura was from the kingdom of Narakasura", or that "Mayasura was from Pragjyotisha" . What was your reference for stating so?

Note: Please ntoe that if the above statement by you is based on proper reference, then it is much valuable. Love and regards,Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji and Sunil Nairji,> ?> Yes, the Yavanas are not necessarily the Greeks alone. When they were chased out due? to?their violation of societal norms they went out in all directions. Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom of Narakasura), where they excelled in Jyotish Shastra.> ?> Because of the attemts of David Pingree to show that the Indians learnt everyrthing including astrology from the Greeks some Indian scholars (?) like Avtar Krishenji think that the Indians learnt Astrology from the

Greek Yavanas. Avtarji thinks that Varahamihira copied from Sphuridhvaja as he,like many others, wrongly believe that the date of Varahamihira was 505 CE.?Te actual date of Varahamihira? was124 BCE, which is much before the date of Sphuridhvaja. Avtarji did not?know? the difference between the Shakendrakala, mentioned by Varahamihira, and the Shakanta kala,mentioned by Brahmagupta. That is why he shouts from rooftop that Vrahamihira is a Charlatan. He does not know that if??Varahamihira? were alive today he would have called Avtarji as Charlatan.> ?> Regards,> ?> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ...> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> ancient_indian_ astrology> Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:01 AM> > > > > > > > ?> hare

rama krishna > dear sreenadh ji > ?> ? we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> ?> it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and ?i am using in large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire?or ?community influence ?may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> ?> you can see yavana

reference in all indian old text other than astrology even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and they follows hindu gods .> ?> regrds sunil nair > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" sreesog@ wrote:> >> > > > Dear All,> > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means -> > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > * Venus the flag pole OR> > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > Some questions:> > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > tradition?> > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen by> >

chance?> > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad; mention> > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who are> > these Yavanas?> > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of ?Agama> > Sastra?, they what they mean by the word ?Agama??> > > > Love and regards,> >

Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and Meena> > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather than> > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none but> > Kama DevaH, the handsome

god of desire, the god of love, sex and beauty.> > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is interesting> > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other meanings> > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > the flag pole'.> > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > `morning star'

Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus the> > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in Sphujidwaja> > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used

by> > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally Indian> > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside the> > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition that> > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > Note the following points ?> > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > Dwaja (Venus

the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji Dwaja> > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the period> > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > - 0 -> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,

Thanks for the info.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadhji,

> ?

> Yes it is in the Mahabharata. Bhagadatta, the son of Narakasura, the

king of Pragjyptiusha, led a group of yavanas to Yudhisthira's yajna.

Bhagadatta also participated in the Mahabharata war and sided with the

Kauravas. I do not have the ready reference with me to cite as I read it

years ago. Pragjyotisha, as the name signifies, means that it is the

ancient-most place, where Jyotisha was practised.

> ?

> Regards,

> ?

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Sreenadh sreesog wrote:

>

> Sreenadh sreesog

> Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

>

> Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 10:03 PM

>

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,

> //Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom of Narakasura)/

/

> ? Can you let me know your reference.? I am a bit confused about the

above statement, due to the following -

> ? * I heard that Pragjyotishpur is somewhere near Assam, and also that

during Mahabharata period this region was part of Kirata Kingdom (and

not Asura kingdom).?

> ? * It is true that many believe that Narakasura was from Assam

region.

> ? * I am yet to see any reference that states that - " Mayasura was a

Yavana " ! What was your reference for stating so?

> ? * I don't know about any reference based on which I could state that

- " Mayasura was from the kingdom of Narakasura " , or that " Mayasura was

from Pragjyotisha " . What was your reference for stating so?

> ? Note: Please ntoe that if the above statement by you is based on

proper reference, then it is much valuable.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh?

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil

Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sreenadhji and Sunil Nairji,

> > ?

> > Yes, the Yavanas are not necessarily the Greeks alone. When they

were chased out due? to?their violation of societal norms they went out

in all directions. Mayasura was a Yavana from Pragjyotisha (the kindom

of Narakasura), where they excelled in Jyotish Shastra.

> > ?

> > Because of the attemts of David Pingree to show that the Indians

learnt everyrthing including astrology from the Greeks some Indian

scholars (?) like Avtar Krishenji think that the Indians learnt

Astrology from the Greek Yavanas. Avtarji thinks that Varahamihira

copied from Sphuridhvaja as he,like many others, wrongly believe that

the date of Varahamihira was 505 CE.?Te actual date of Varahamihira?

was124 BCE, which is much before the date of Sphuridhvaja. Avtarji did

not?know? the difference between the Shakendrakala, mentioned by

Varahamihira, and the Shakanta kala,mentioned by Brahmagupta. That is

why he shouts from rooftop that Vrahamihira is a Charlatan. He does not

know that if??Varahamihira? were alive today he would have called

Avtarji as Charlatan.

> > ?

> > Regards,

> > ?

> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

> >

> >

> >

> > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala@ ...

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:01 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ?

> > hare rama krishna

> > dear sreenadh ji

> > ?

> > ? we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl

frm any diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin

tradition of varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period

..So branded as yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit

meaning earlier .We shud think that in india there were even shaiva

vaishnava fights .so imagine long back what not might hav happened .And

each might hav depicted other as mlecha or out caste in their

litterature .

> > ?

> > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and ?i am

using in large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire?or

?community influence ?may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old

russia .Many of this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and

also has influence in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside

world .

> > ?

> > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than

astrology even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected

too and they follows hindu gods .

> > ?

> > regrds sunil nair

> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah

> >

> > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh "

sreesog@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear All,

> > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that

means -

> > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR

> > > * Venus the flag pole OR

> > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)

> > >

> > > Some questions:

> > >

> > >

> > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva

> > > tradition?

> > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just

> > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to

happen by

> > > chance?

> > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to

> > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;

mention

> > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?

> > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?

> > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?

> > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC

> > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then -

who are

> > > these Yavanas?

> > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge

they

> > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the

knowledge

> > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?

> > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of ?Agama

> > > Sastra?, they what they mean by the word ?Agama??

> > >

> > > Love and regards,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh "

> > > sreesog@ wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

> > >

> > > - Written by Sreenadh OG

> > >

> > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,

> > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and

Meena

> > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole)

rather than

> > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.

> > >

> > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.

> > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star.

Sphujit

> > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus

Sphuji

> > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is

none but

> > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and

beauty.

> > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology.

In

> > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and

love.

> > >

> > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in

his

> > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is

interesting

> > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other

meanings

> > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,

> > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean

`Venus

> > > the flag pole'.

> > >

> > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the

zodiac is

> > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star.

The

> > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but

the

> > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is

the

> > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god.

This

> > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just

some

> > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King,

Venus the

> > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj'

mean

> > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja'

and

> > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the

morning

> > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust,

love,

> > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in

Sphujidwaja

> > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider

the

> > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the

> > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems

used by

> > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally

Indian

> > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to

and

> > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are

outside the

> > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja

refer to

> > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods

> > > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts

the

> > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).

> > >

> > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to

represent a

> > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a

tradition that

> > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.

> > >

> > > Note the following points ?

> > >

> > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra

> > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never

refer

> > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to

Indian

> > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where

> > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji

Dwaja

> > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known

with

> > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the

period

> > > of Sphuji Dwaja)

> > >

> > > - 0 -

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

The wors Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right from Vedas the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word Mlechcha literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin who eats nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word Yavana always means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to Bharatavarsha.Indian subcontinant is only a part of Bharatavarsha.Bharatavarshavarsha does not refer to Indian subcontinant alone it includes ancient Persia which is modern Iran, Central Asia and parts of Russua too.Kamboja is the Vedic name for Combodia and Kekaya is modern Kazakstan which are also parts of Bharatavarsha.According to Vedas and allied literature there are 7 Dwipas on Earth meanin g 7 continants.The most important ofthese is Jambooddwipa which is Eurasia with Antartica.And there are 9 Varshas which are parts of

Jambuddwipa.The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in the centre of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.The most important of the Varshas, meaning Nations, in Jambooddwipa is Bharatavarsha which includes modern Antartica.An isthumas connects Gangothri in Himalayas and Antartica even today via Bay of Bengal and Indian ocean.The Vedic Language from which all the other languages of the world evolved has no name it was called AARYA meaning that which is noble.ater Maharshi Panini abridged the AARYA and wrote the first grammar Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the the abridged language as Samskrtam SAMYAKAKRITAM SAMSKRTAM meaning WELL DONE.The other languages which are dialects of AARYAA were colloqual and not perfect and hence called Mlechchabashas meaning Mean or Low Languages.

B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.

website: www.vedascience.com

Sreenadh <sreesog Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 2:42 PM

 

 

 

Dear Chakraborty ji, Thanks for the informative write-up. //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> have changed over the times ?// I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must be different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a limited meaning. //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> of the Mleccha and Yavana ?// I am yet to find any such reference. //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> together (as in the

quote provided by you).// Except the qute "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam" (provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet to find any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana. //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too think the same.//> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. // This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha to refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic trend came down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that the word Mleccha refer to the original Indigenous

people of India. Also note that Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to river/sea, and also that the original major god of Avastan people (Atharva Vedic?) is Varuna, the sea god. (Any connection?) . May be this word refers to Meluhans (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous scholars – who knows. In Kerala too the word 'Yavana" was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to refer to Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was - 1) once used to refer to Muslims 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran) 3) once used to refer to Greek 4) once used to refer to Ionians 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!) May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them it was used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general meaning "Foreigners" . While considering

statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which meaning we should consider - we may wonder.Love and regards,Sreenadh--In ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.> My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama' > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand> the roots of words and our history.> > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood language,> the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have misunderstood> your good intentions.> > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the logical> path may be based

on as below :> > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> have changed over the times ?> > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> of the Mleccha and Yavana ?> > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> together (as in the quote provided by you).> > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. > > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed> few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I

remain Sane) indicates> different community.> > ____________ _________ _> > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya- ji,> > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...> Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,> Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case> of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these> kings too.> > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described> variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war> between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.> > I will search this out and

send the link> > > regards> > chakraborty> > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ...]> Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM> ancient_indian_ astrology> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct> meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu. ..". The popular> meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded> outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is> wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one> of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You

provide your choice> and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting> arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a valuable> conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we> all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to> answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no> ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out,> that came to my mind. > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > Please take it easy.> > > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > > something

which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> > and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> > with commoners like us. > > > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > > > regards> > > > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ]> > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

com> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu. ....". How will you> > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)>

> > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvat a). Vidura came to> > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > >

> Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > > > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > > > regards> > > > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > sunil nair [astro_ tellerkerala@ ]> > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > > > dear sreenadh ji

> > > > > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> tradition> > of> > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We> > shud> > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine> > long> > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community>

> > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> of> > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> > influence> > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> > they> > > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" sreesog@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear All,>

> > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means> -> > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > > tradition?> > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen> by> > > > chance?> > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> mention> > > > Veda-Vedanga

etc as well?> > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> are> > > > these Yavanas?> > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > > > Sastraâ...*R? , they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ. ..*R??> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > >

> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> Meena> > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> than> > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > > also means Venus, the morning star.

Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> but> > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> beauty.> > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> interesting> > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> meanings> > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > > > the flag

pole'.> > > > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> the> > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the

morning> > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> Sphujidwaja> > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> Indian> > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> the> > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> >

> > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> that> > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is

sure that Sphuji> Dwaja> > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> period> > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > > > - 0 -> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> India.> > The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments> to> > this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and> may> > contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are> not> > the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy> this> > e-mail.

Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of> this> > message and any attachments.> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India.> The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to> this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may> contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not> the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this> message and any attachments.> >> > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any

attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>

[Guest guest]

I agree to the undermentiond definition submitted by Shri Venkata

Krishnan.

 

// The words Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right from Vedas

the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word Mlechcha

literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin who eats

nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word Yavana

always means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to Bharatavarsha

//

 

regards/Bhaskar.

 

 

 

 

 

, venkata krishnan

<bcvk71 wrote:

>

>

> Dear All,

> The wors Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right

from Vedas the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word

Mlechcha literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin

who eats nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word

Yavana always means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to

Bharatavarsha.Indian subcontinant is only a part of

Bharatavarsha.Bharatavarshavarsha does not refer to Indian subcontinant

alone it includes ancient Persia which is modern Iran, Central Asia and

parts of Russua too.Kamboja is the Vedic name for Combodia and Kekaya is

modern Kazakstan which are also parts of Bharatavarsha.According to

Vedas and allied literature there are 7 Dwipas on Earth meanin g 7

continants.The most important ofthese is Jambooddwipa which is Eurasia

with Antartica.And there are 9 Varshas which are parts of

Jambuddwipa.The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in

> the centre of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.The most

important of the Varshas, meaning Nations, in Jambooddwipa is

Bharatavarsha which includes modern Antartica.An isthumas connects

Gangothri in Himalayas and Antartica even today via Bay of Bengal and

Indian ocean.The Vedic Language from which all the other languages of

the world evolved has no name it was called AARYA meaning that which is

noble.ater Maharshi Panini abridged the AARYA and wrote the first

grammar Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the the abridged language as Samskrtam

SAMYAKAKRITAM SAMSKRTAM meaning WELL DONE.The other languages which are

dialects of AARYAA were colloqual and not perfect and hence called

Mlechchabashas meaning Mean or Low Languages.

> B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.

> website: www.vedascience.com

>

>

> Sreenadh sreesog

> Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

>

> Thursday, October 30, 2008, 2:42 PM

>

Dear Chakraborty ji,

> Thanks for the informative write-up.

> //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to

> > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words

> > have changed over the times ?//

> I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any

statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must be

different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a

limited meaning.

> //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation

> > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?//

> I am yet to find any such reference.

> //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha

> > together (as in the quote provided by you).//

> Except the qute " Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam "

(provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet to

find any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana.

> //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too

think the same.

>

> //> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to

> > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea.

> > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from

> > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. //

> This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha

to refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic

trend came down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that

the word Mleccha refer to the original Indigenous people of India. Also

note that Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to

river/sea, and also that the original major god of Avastan people

(Atharva Vedic?) is Varuna, the sea god. (Any connection?) . May be

this word refers to Meluhans (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous

scholars – who knows.

> In Kerala too the word 'Yavana " was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to

refer to Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was -

> 1) once used to refer to Muslims

> 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran)

> 3) once used to refer to Greek

> 4) once used to refer to Ionians

> 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!)

> May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them

it was used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general

meaning " Foreigners " .

> While considering statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which

meaning we should consider - we may wonder.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> --In ancient_indian_ astrology, " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sreenadh-ji,

> >

> > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.

> > My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama'

> > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand

> > the roots of words and our history.

> >

> > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood

language,

> > the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have

misunderstood

> > your good intentions.

> >

> > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the

logical

> > path may be based on as below :

> >

> > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to

> > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words

> > have changed over the times ?

> >

> > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation

> > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?

> >

> > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha

> > together (as in the quote provided by you).

> >

> > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are

different.

> > Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to

> > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea.

> > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from

> > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me.

> >

> > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed

> > few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane)

indicates

> > different community.

> >

> > ____________ _________ _

> >

> > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya- ji,

> >

> > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been

> > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...

> > Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was

> > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,

> > Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case

> > of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these

> > kings too.

> >

> > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in

> > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described

> > variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also

> > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war

> > between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.

> >

> > I will search this out and send the link

> >

> >

> > regards

> >

> > chakraborty

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ...]

> > Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear Chakraborty ji,

> > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct

> > meaning/translation of the words " Mleccha hi yavanasteshu. .. " . The

popular

> > meaning attributed to these words are " Even though the Greeks are

degraded

> > outcasts ... " (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning

is

> > wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to

clear one

> > of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding.

> > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your

choice

> > and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and

supporting

> > arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a

valuable

> > conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse

we

> > all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another

to

> > answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc?

> > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question,

no

> > ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought

out,

> > that came to my mind.

> > Love and regards,

> > Sreenadh

> >

> > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Chakraborty,

PL "

> > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sreenadh-ji,

> > >

> > > Please take it easy.

> > >

> > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to

> > > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some

> > > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a

> > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana

> > > and Mleccha may or may not be same.

> > >

> > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here.

> > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things

> > > with commoners like us.

> > >

> > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.

> > >

> > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.

> > >

> > > regards

> > >

> > > Chakraborty P L

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ]

> > > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all,

> > > Gargahora states - " Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu. .... " . How will you

> > > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -

> > > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)

> > > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

> > >

> > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana =

Forgiener)

> > > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

> > >

> > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)

> > > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana)

> > >

> > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

> > > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)

> > >

> > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)

> > > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners

(Yavana)

> > > Love and regards,

> > > Sreenadh

> > >

> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Chakraborty,

PL "

> > > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,

> > > >

> > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.

> > > >

> > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,

> > > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill

Pandava

> > > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvat a). Vidura

came to

> > > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The

guards

> > > > who were present could not understand the language.

> > > >

> > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were

attested in

> > > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi

Melechite

> > > >

> > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of

Yavana with

> > > > people who uses fast horses.

> > > >

> > > > regards

> > > >

> > > > chakraborty

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > sunil nair [astro_ tellerkerala@ ]

> > > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM

> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena

Raja

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > hare rama krishna

> > > >

> > > > dear sreenadh ji

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl

frm any

> > > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin

> > tradition

> > > of

> > > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So

branded as

> > > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning

earlier .We

> > > shud

> > > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so

imagine

> > > long

> > > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted

other as

> > > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am

using in

> > > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or

community

> > > > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia

..Many

> > of

> > > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also

has

> > > influence

> > > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than

astrology

> > > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected

too and

> > > they

> > > > follows hindu gods .

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > regrds sunil nair

> > > >

> > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh "

sreesog@

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear All,

> > > > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name

that means

> > -

> > > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR

> > > > > * Venus the flag pole OR

> > > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)

> > > > >

> > > > > Some questions:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva

> > > > > tradition?

> > > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was

just

> > > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to

happen

> > by

> > > > > chance?

> > > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer

to

> > > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna

Upanishad;

> > mention

> > > > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?

> > > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?

> > > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?

> > > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged

to BC

> > > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then

- who

> > are

> > > > > these Yavanas?

> > > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge

they

> > > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the

knowledge

> > > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?

> > > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of

â...*RoeAgama

> > > > > Sastraâ...*R? , they what they mean by the word

â...*R~Agamaâ. ..*R??

> > > > >

> > > > > Love and regards,

> > > > > Sreenadh

> > > > >

> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh "

> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

> > > > >

> > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG

> > > > >

> > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of

love,

> > > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja

and

> > Meena

> > > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole)

rather

> > than

> > > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.

> > > > >

> > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are

notable.

> > > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star.

Sphujit

> > > > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole.

Thus Sphuji

> > > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This

is none

> > but

> > > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex

and

> > beauty.

> > > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in

astrology. In

> > > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty

and love.

> > > > >

> > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar

in his

> > > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is

> > interesting

> > > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other

> > meanings

> > > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma

Ritu,

> > > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean

`Venus

> > > > > the flag pole'.

> > > > >

> > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the

zodiac is

> > > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean

star. The

> > > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none

but the

> > > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus

is the

> > > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome

god. This

> > > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are

just some

> > > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King,

Venus

> > the

> > > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and

`Raj' mean

> > > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji

Dwaja' and

> > > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the

morning

> > > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust,

love,

> > > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in

> > Sphujidwaja

> > > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them

consider the

> > > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the

> > > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems

used by

> > > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still

totally

> > Indian

> > > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still

refer to and

> > > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are

outside

> > the

> > > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja

refer to

> > > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods

> > > > > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja

starts the

> > > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).

> > > > >

> > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to

represent a

> > > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a

tradition

> > that

> > > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.

> > > > >

> > > > > Note the following points ?

> > > > >

> > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e.

Sukra

> > > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never

refer

> > > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to

Indian

> > > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some

where

> > > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that

Sphuji

> > Dwaja

> > > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known

with

> > > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to

the

> > period

> > > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)

> > > > >

> > > > > - 0 -

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New

Delhi,

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> > > The information contained in this electronic message and any

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> > to

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[Guest guest]

Dear Venkat Krishnan-ji,

 

I would like to disgree on few points

 

a) Yavana and Mleccha are different - fully agreed.

b) Mleccha means any non-vegetarians - disgree.

Many Kshatriya kings went for deer hunting (Mrigaya / Mrugaya).

Like Dasharatha went and killed the only osn of Andhaka Muni.

So did Dushyant (when he met Shakuntala in Kanva Muni's Ashram).

Now, either they did deer hunting only for fun (how cruel !) or they

did eat those. Even Agastya asked for meat (while killing the

Ilval / Vatapi rakshas). If meat eating was so disgusting in those

days ... the noble ones would not dare to try that.

c) Area of Bharatavarsha ... debatable point. Surely it was bigger.

d) Kamboja was most probably colonized by Kambojas.. not necessarily

their native place. The Bala Kanda descriptions about birth of Kamboja

indicates close proximity of Shaka / Pallava / Kamboja / Mleccha.

e) Regarding Dwipa ... by etymology, Dwipa means Dwi (two) Aapa (water)

The meaning might have changed over the years. And the description

of 7 dwipa probably mentions 7 concentric cirles. Difficult to connect

these descriptions with continents

f) Sanskrit being the mother of all languages .. very difficult to believe.

The Chinese / Basque / Austric languages are quite different at root level.

 

Anyway, let us agree to disagree on some points.

 

 

regards

 

chakraborty

 

venkata krishnan [bcvk71]Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:43 PM ; 'Lila'; BCVENKATAKRISHNANNewsListgroup; Pavitra Ramanujam; Phillip; Thirunarayanan K.RaghavanRe: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear All,

The wors Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right from Vedas the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word Mlechcha literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin who eats nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word Yavana always means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to Bharatavarsha.Indian subcontinant is only a part of Bharatavarsha.Bharatavarshavarsha does not refer to Indian subcontinant alone it includes ancient Persia which is modern Iran, Central Asia and parts of Russua too.Kamboja is the Vedic name for Combodia and Kekaya is modern Kazakstan which are also parts of Bharatavarsha.According to Vedas and allied literature there are 7 Dwipas on Earth meanin g 7 continants.The most important ofthese is Jambooddwipa which is Eurasia with Antartica.And there are 9 Varshas which are parts of Jambuddwipa.The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in the centre of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.The most important of the Varshas, meaning Nations, in Jambooddwipa is Bharatavarsha which includes modern Antartica.An isthumas connects Gangothri in Himalayas and Antartica even today via Bay of Bengal and Indian ocean.The Vedic Language from which all the other languages of the world evolved has no name it was called AARYA meaning that which is noble.ater Maharshi Panini abridged the AARYA and wrote the first grammar Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the the abridged language as Samskrtam SAMYAKAKRITAM SAMSKRTAM meaning WELL DONE.The other languages which are dialects of AARYAA were colloqual and not perfect and hence called Mlechchabashas meaning Mean or Low Languages.

B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.

website: www.vedascience.com

Sreenadh <sreesog > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 2:42 PM

 

 

 

Dear Chakraborty ji, Thanks for the informative write-up. //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> have changed over the times ?// I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must be different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a limited meaning. //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> of the Mleccha and Yavana ?// I am yet to find any such reference. //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> together (as in the quote provided by you).// Except the qute "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam" (provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet to find any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana. //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too think the same.//> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. // This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha to refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic trend came down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that the word Mleccha refer to the original Indigenous people of India. Also note that Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to river/sea, and also that the original major god of Avastan people (Atharva Vedic?) is Varuna, the sea god. (Any connection?) . May be this word refers to Meluhans (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous scholars – who knows. In Kerala too the word 'Yavana" was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to refer to Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was - 1) once used to refer to Muslims 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran) 3) once used to refer to Greek 4) once used to refer to Ionians 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!) May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them it was used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general meaning "Foreigners" . While considering statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which meaning we should consider - we may wonder.Love and regards,Sreenadh--In ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.> My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama' > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand> the roots of words and our history.> > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood language,> the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have misunderstood> your good intentions.> > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the logical> path may be based on as below :> > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> have changed over the times ?> > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> of the Mleccha and Yavana ?> > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> together (as in the quote provided by you).> > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. > > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed> few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane) indicates> different community.> > ____________ _________ _> > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya- ji,> > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...> Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,> Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case> of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these> kings too.> > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described> variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war> between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.> > I will search this out and send the link> > > regards> > chakraborty> > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ...]> Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM> ancient_indian_ astrology> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct> meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu. ..". The popular> meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded> outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is> wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one> of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your choice> and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting> arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a valuable> conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we> all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to> answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no> ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out,> that came to my mind. > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > Please take it easy.> > > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> > and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> > with commoners like us. > > > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > > > regards> > > > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ]> > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu. ....". How will you> > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvat a). Vidura came to> > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi Melechite> > > > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana with > > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > > > regards> > > > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > sunil nair [astro_ tellerkerala@ ]> > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm any> > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> tradition> > of> > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded as> > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier .We> > shud> > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so imagine> > long> > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using in> > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> of> > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> > influence> > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than astrology> > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> > they> > > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh" sreesog@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that means> -> > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > > tradition?> > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to happen> by> > > > chance?> > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> mention> > > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> are> > > > these Yavanas?> > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > > > Sastraâ...*R? , they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ. ..*R??> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> Meena> > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> than> > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus Sphuji> > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> but> > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> beauty.> > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and love.> > > > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in his> > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> interesting> > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> meanings> > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean `Venus> > > > the flag pole'.> > > > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac is> > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but the> > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god. This> > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just some> > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> the> > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj' mean> > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja' and> > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the morning> > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> Sphujidwaja> > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider the> > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used by> > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> Indian> > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to and> > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> the> > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer to> > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent a> > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> that> > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji> Dwaja> > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> period> > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > > > - 0 -> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> India.> > The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments> to> > this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and> may> > contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are> not> > the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy> this> > e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of> this> > message and any attachments.> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India.> The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to> this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may> contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not> the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this> message and any attachments.> >> > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Chakrobortyji,

I knew this was coming when I pressed the send button, because even I do not believe that all non vegetarians would come under the category of " Mlechhas". I knew some one is going to give an example of the Kings of the ancient times. I agree with most of your points.

I will affirm that In my mail I just seconded the point that "Mlechhas" and " Yavanas" these two terms are different.

I agree with almost all of your views.

regards,

Bhaskar.

 

, "Chakraborty, PL" <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Venkat Krishnan-ji,> > I would like to disgree on few points> > a) Yavana and Mleccha are different - fully agreed.> b) Mleccha means any non-vegetarians - disgree.> Many Kshatriya kings went for deer hunting (Mrigaya / Mrugaya).> Like Dasharatha went and killed the only osn of Andhaka Muni.> So did Dushyant (when he met Shakuntala in Kanva Muni's Ashram).> > Now, either they did deer hunting only for fun (how cruel !) or they> did eat those. Even Agastya asked for meat (while killing the > Ilval / Vatapi rakshas). If meat eating was so disgusting in those > days ... the noble ones would not dare to try that.> c) Area of Bharatavarsha ... debatable point. Surely it was bigger.> d) Kamboja was most probably colonized by Kambojas.. not necessarily> their native place. The Bala Kanda descriptions about birth of Kamboja > indicates close proximity of Shaka / Pallava / Kamboja / Mleccha. > e) Regarding Dwipa ... by etymology, Dwipa means Dwi (two) Aapa (water)> The meaning might have changed over the years. And the description> of 7 dwipa probably mentions 7 concentric cirles. Difficult to connect > these descriptions with continents> f) Sanskrit being the mother of all languages .. very difficult to> believe.> The Chinese / Basque / Austric languages are quite different at root> level.> > > Anyway, let us agree to disagree on some points.> > > regards> > chakraborty> > > > venkata krishnan [bcvk71]> Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:43 PM> ; 'Lila';> BCVENKATAKRISHNANNewsListgroup; Pavitra Ramanujam; Phillip; Thirunarayanan> K.Raghavan> Re: Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > Dear All,> The wors Yavana and Mlechcha are 2 different terms.Right from> Vedas the word Mlechaha refersto who eats nonvegetarian .The word Mlechcha> literally means MEAN OR LOW PERSON.Any one including a Brahmin who eats> nonveg is called a Mlechchsa inthe Vedic civilization.The word Yavana always> means a Foreigneer (i.e.) one who is foreigneer to Bharatavarsha.Indian> subcontinant is only a part of Bharatavarsha.Bharatavarshavarsha does not> refer to Indian subcontinant alone it includes ancient Persia which is> modern Iran, Central Asia and parts of Russua too.Kamboja is the Vedic name> for Combodia and Kekaya is modern Kazakstan which are also parts of> Bharatavarsha.According to Vedas and allied literature there are 7 Dwipas on> Earth meanin g 7 continants.The most important ofthese is Jambooddwipa which> is Eurasia with Antartica.And there are 9 Varshas which are parts of> Jambuddwipa.The word Jambu means Figtree since a Jambu tree stood in the> centre of this Dwipa it got its name Jambooddwipa.The most important of the> Varshas, meaning Nations, in Jambooddwipa is Bharatavarsha which includes> modern Antartica.An isthumas connects Gangothri in Himalayas and Antartica> even today via Bay of Bengal and Indian ocean.The Vedic Language from which> all the other languages of the world evolved has no name it was called> AARYA meaning that which is noble.ater Maharshi Panini abridged the AARYA> and wrote the first grammar Ashtaadhdhyaayi and named the the abridged> language as Samskrtam SAMYAKAKRITAM SAMSKRTAM meaning WELL DONE.The other> languages which are dialects of AARYAA were colloqual and not perfect and> hence called Mlechchabashas meaning Mean or Low Languages. > B.C.VENKATAKRISHNAN.> website: www.vedascience. <http://www.vedascience.com> com> > > > Sreenadh sreesog Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > Thursday, October 30, 2008, 2:42 PM> > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > Thanks for the informative write-up. > //> 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> > have changed over the times ?//> I dnon't think that they mean the same, and never came accross any> statement that tells us that they mean the same. Therefore they must be> different - possibly one with a broader meaning and the other with a limited> meaning. > //> 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?//> I am yet to find any such reference. > //> 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> > together (as in the quote provided by you).//> Except the qute "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu samyak sastramidam stitam"> (provided by Garga and quoted by Mihira in Brihat Samhita) I am yet to find> any qute that connects or correlates Mleccha and Yavana. > //> My perception is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.// Me too think> the same.> > //> Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > > Afghanistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. //> This is interesting. In Kerala also many people use the word Mleccha to> refer to the low caste people (may be a tradition and linguistic trend came> down from Sanskrit). Possibly this points to the fact that the word Mleccha> refer to the original Indigenous people of India. Also note that> Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization was strongly connected to river/sea, and also> that the original major god of Avastan people (Atharva Vedic?) is Varuna,> the sea god. (Any connection?) . May be this word refers to Meluhans> (Harappans) as pointed out by numerous scholars – who knows. > In Kerala too the word 'Yavana" was used (as Yona, Jonaka etc) to refer to> Muslims etc. Possibly throughout India, this word was -> 1) once used to refer to Muslims> 2) once used to refer to Parsis (People or ancient Iran)> 3) once used to refer to Greek> 4) once used to refer to Ionians > 5) once used to refer to ......... (who knows!!!!) > May be starting from the ancient Ionions or someone prior to them it was> used to refer to a host of people and thus gained the general meaning> "Foreigners" . > While considering statements in Garga Hora etc, out of these which meaning> we should consider - we may wonder.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > --In ancient_indian_ astrology> < , "Chakraborty, PL"> <CHAKRABORTYP2@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > I do not Know Sanskrit. I think I had communicated this info before.> > My understanding of Sanskrit words are purely based on 'tatsama' > > words in my mother tongue Bengali and an yearning to understand> > the roots of words and our history.> > > > So, when faced with multiple choice test in a little understood language,> > the first impulse is always defensive. I am sorry that I have> misunderstood> > your good intentions.> > > > Coming back to the discussion, whn faced with such points, the logical> > path may be based on as below :> > > > 1) Whether the words Mleccha and Yavana has always been used to > > convey the same meaning ? Whether the meaning of these words> > have changed over the times ?> > > > 2) Is there any source which indicates the profession / occupation> > of the Mleccha and Yavana ?> > > > 3) Are there other quotes available which link Yavana and Mleccha> > together (as in the quote provided by you).> > > > My perception (not fact based) is .. Yavana and Mleccha are different.> > Mleccha word is sometimes used by older generation Bengali to > > mean low caste Fish-catcher group.. who resides by river / sea. > > Whereas Yavana is used differently ... mainly Muslims from > > Afganistan and beyond. Why this is so is not known to me. > > > > Internet searches (I did enough of that when I was highly depressed> > few years ago ... as a time pass ... so that I remain Sane) indicates> > different community.> > > > ____________ _________ _> > > > Regarding your interaction with Sunil Bhattacharya- ji,> > > > The Pre-historic rulers of Pragjyotishpur has mostly been > > described as Asura or Danava..like Mahiranga Danava ...> > Narakasur ...Interestingly, it is claimed that Sumali was > > also linked to this group .. who was killed and from his body,> > Anga, Vanga and Kalinga was fromed. Probably it is case> > of tri-furcation of state. And the Bodo group claims these> > kings too.> > > > There is another connection. The ruling dynasty in > > Dinajpore (Bengal) under Pal Vansha has been described> > variously as Daitya Vansha / Kamboj group. There is also > > a 'Tamralipi' -- probably Irda tamralipi which talks of a war> > between Kamboj ruler and one Ratnsura form Kamrup.> > > > I will search this out and send the link> > > > > > regards> > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ...]> > Thursday, October 30, 2008 1:04 PM> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji, > > I was not contesting something. I my self don't know the correct> > meaning/translation of the words "Mleccha hi yavanasteshu. ..". The> popular> > meaning attributed to these words are "Even though the Greeks are degraded> > outcasts ..." (Point no.5). But I feel that definitely this meaning is> > wrong. That is why the question. I was just sincerely trying to clear one> > of my doubts, in the light of our collective understanding. > > I will provide my choice and supporting arguments; You provide your choice> > and supporting arguments; Sunil ji will provide his choice and supporting> > arguments; and many others may follow. And together we may reach a> valuable> > conclusion regarding the correct meaning of this statement. Ofcourse we> > all need to know this, because we all are forced one time or another to> > answer the question - who are these yavanas, mlecchas etc? > > Note: Please don't misunderstand. That was just a friendly question, no> > ego or contest involved. I was just enquiring and letting a thought out,> > that came to my mind. > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > Please take it easy.> > > > > > I was not contesting anything. I was just pointing to > > > something which indicated Mleccha language was different to some> > > extent from the language spoken by ordinary guards. It was not a > > > comparison of Yavan language vs. Mleccha language. And Yavana> > > and Mleccha may or may not be same.> > > > > > So, the multiple choice type question is not really relevant here. > > > It seems that you are not very comfortable discussing these things> > > with commoners like us. > > > > > > Anyway, it is as per individual taste to do something or not.> > > > > > I withdraw myself from this ongoing discussion.> > > > > > regards> > > > > > Chakraborty P L> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh [sreesog@ ]> > > Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:23 AM> > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and all, > > > Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu. ....". How will you> > > translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> > > 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > > 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > > > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana = Forgiener)> > > 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > > > > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > > 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana) > > > > > > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > > 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > > > > > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> > > 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Chakraborty, PL"> > > CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> > > > > > > > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> > > > > > > > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > > > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > > > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvat a). Vidura came> to> > > > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > > > who were present could not understand the language.> > > > > > > > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > > > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi> Melechite> > > > > > > > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana> with > > > > people who uses fast horses. > > > > > > > > regards> > > > > > > > chakraborty> > > > > > > > > > > > sunil nair [astro_ tellerkerala@ ]> > > > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hare rama krishna > > > > > > > > dear sreenadh ji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm> any> > > > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> > tradition> > > of> > > > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded> as> > > > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier> .We> > > shud> > > > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so> imagine> > > long> > > > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > > > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using> in> > > > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > > > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> > of> > > > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> > > influence> > > > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than> astrology> > > > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> > > they> > > > follows hindu gods .> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regrds sunil nair > > > > > > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> sreesog@> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that> means> > -> > > > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > > > > > > > > > Some questions:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > > > tradition?> > > > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to> happen> > by> > > > > chance?> > > > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara; refer to> > > > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> > mention> > > > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> > are> > > > > these Yavanas?> > > > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â...*RoeAgama> > > > > Sastraâ...*R? , they what they mean by the word â...*R~Agamaâ.> ..*R??> > > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > > > > > > > > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > > > > > > > > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> > Meena> > > > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> > than> > > > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > > > > > > > > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus> Sphuji> > > > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> > but> > > > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> > beauty.> > > > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and> love.> > > > > > > > > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in> his> > > > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> > interesting> > > > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> > meanings> > > > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean> `Venus> > > > > the flag pole'.> > > > > > > > > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac> is> > > > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but> the> > > > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god.> This> > > > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just> some> > > > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> > the> > > > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj'> mean> > > > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja'> and> > > > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the> morning> > > > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> > Sphujidwaja> > > > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider> the> > > > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used> by> > > > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> > Indian> > > > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to> and> > > > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> > the> > > > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer> to> > > > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > > > Brahma-Vishnu- Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts> the> > > > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > > > > > > > > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent> a> > > > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> > that> > > > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > > > > > > > > > Note the following points ?> > > > > > > > > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji> > Dwaja> > > > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> > period> > > > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > > > > > > > > > - 0 -> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> > India.> > > The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments> > to> > > this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and> > may> > > contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are> > not> > > the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy> > this> > > e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of> > this> > > message and any attachments.> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> India.> > The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments> to> > this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and> may> > contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are> not> > the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy> this> > e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of> this> > message and any attachments.> > >> > > > > > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India.> The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to> this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may> contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not> the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this> e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this> message and any attachments.> >> > > > > > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. 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Dear all, As per popular understanding, the meaning of the words - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu....." is "Even though Yavanas are Mlecchas .... " etc. There is not much argument regarding this. If this is true, these words can only mean - 1) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

[Pointing or the fact that Harrappans went to Greece and colonized it. Even though, the hindu fanatics will love to accept such a meaning, since there is no relevance to Greeks in a text by Garga written possibly during BC 1100, this argument should be discarded] 2) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

[Harappans were indigenious people - so this statement cannot be true and can be discarded] 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)

[There is no relevance to Greeks in a text by Garga written possibly during BC 1100. Further the meaning 'degraded outcasts' for the word 'Mleccha' is controversial. As per most of the scholars, the word 'Mleccha' refers to a language, possibly the one used by the Meluhan (i.e. Harappan) people. Thus this argument can be discarded] 6) Even though Ionians (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)

[Pointing or the fact that Harrappans went to Ionia and colonized it. Even though, the Hindu fanatics will love to accept such a meaning, this argument cannot stand, since it indicates that - "Harappans were AGAINST astrology, but Ionians practiced it"!! This cannot be true in light of the "Swastik" etc symbols found in Harappa, and the sea-faring tradition they followed (for which astronomical understanding is a pre-requisite, and thus the allied growth of Astrology was just natural to happen). In light of this understanding we would have to drop this argument as well] 6) Even though Ionians (Yavana) are the speakers of Mleccha (possibly meaning 'Non-Aryan') language.

[if 'Mleccha' means 'Non-aryan'; if 'Mleccha vani' mean 'languages other than Sanskrit' then certainly this is an acceptable meaning. Why? Because what Garga what to express is - Astrology is preserved in Sanskrit language. The Ionians are speakers of a non-aryan language without much history and purity. But still they have mastered this knowledge of astrology and is using it well (possibly learned from people who use Sanskrit] Sanskrit got that name after Panini after BC 200 only. The Vedic Brahmins used to call this language - Deva Vani, Arya Vani etc as well. But this ancient language does seem to be limited to Vedic brahmins alone, as evident from the fact that even the great scholars like Panini and Patanjali who revised this ancient language and made it Sanskrit (from Prakrit) were non-brahmins, non-vedic. Panini and Patanjali were Naga people! Thus it could be possible that Sanskrit in it original form (Call it Deva vani or Asura vani) might have be the language of both Nigama and Agama people. As we know it the Vedic people had never preserved astrology in the form Garga knew it. But still Garga is referring to this astrological knowledge resource that was present in this language. This could mean that Garga of BC 1100 was pointing to the - "Agama knowledge of astrology that was preserved from the ancient past, in the pre-Sanskrit language". It is this meaning that, I would prefer to follow. Thus I am also of the opinion that - Mleccha means Non-Aryan, Non-vedic; Mleccha Bhasha means 'Non-vedic, non-aryan, non-Sanskrit language'. It is also possible that even prior to this - the word 'Mleccha' might have been used to refer to 'Meluhan' (Harappan) language. Of course this is supported by archeological evidence as well, since the Meluhan (i.e. Harappan) culture and language was present prior to BC 1900. But Garga lived around BC 1100. It is quite possible that, by that time the original meaning of the word 'Mleccha' (as Harappan Language) might have been lost and the general meaning for this word accepted during that period should be 'Non-aryan; Non-Sanskrit language'. This is only logical solution, I can think about for this issue. (provided "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu....." is the words present in Garga hora written around BC 1100)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> > Dear Chakraborty ji and all,> Gargahora states - "Mleccha hi Yavanasteshu.....". How will you> translate it? Please opt from the following choices -> 1) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> 2) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 3) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Foreginers (Yavana => Forgiener)> 4) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> > 5) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> 6) Even though degreded outcasts (Mleccha) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 7) Even though Greeks (Yavana) are Harappans (Meluhans)> 8) Even though Harappans (Meluhans) are Greeks (Yavana)> > 9) Even though Foreigners (Yavana) are degraded outcasts (Mleccha)> 10) Even though degraded outcasts (Mleccha) are Foreigners (Yavana)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Chakraborty, PL"> CHAKRABORTYP2@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sunil-ji and Sreenadh-ji,> >> > Yavana and Mleccha were all Indians - agreed.> >> > Probably Mleccha had a slightly different language. In MBH,> > there was a coversation about this. Kaurava wanted to kill Pandava> > by burning them in Jatu-Griha (in Baranabata/Varanvata). Vidura came> to> > know about it and talked to Yudhisthir in Mleccha language. The guards> > who were present could not understand the language.> >> > Mleccha might be related to Meluha and Melachites who were attested in> > Old Testament also. Abraham probably was a guest of some Abhi> Melechite> >> > Few years back, I came thru an article which traced root of Yavana> with> > people who uses fast horses.> >> > regards> >> > chakraborty> >> > > > sunil nair [astro_tellerkerala@]> > Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:31 PM> > > > Re: Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> >> >> >> >> >> >> > hare rama krishna> >> > dear sreenadh ji> >> >> >> > we discussed many times the yavanas are not greeks ,not even ppl frm> any> > diffrnt culture .they r ppl simply dont go for the vedic brhmin> tradition of> > varnashrama which turned out as caste system later period .So branded> as> > yavans or mlechas etc etc tho this word has defenit meaning earlier> .We shud> > think that in india there were even shaiva vaishnava fights .so> imagine long> > back what not might hav happened .And each might hav depicted other as> > mlecha or out caste in their litterature .> >> >> >> > it is as simple as that and other wise they r indians and i am using> in> > large canvass ,may b even afghanies of today whose empire or community> > influence may b extent upto IRAN or even some part of old russia .Many> of> > this kind of parllel streams were prevalent in india and also has> influence> > in diffrnt part of india too and also to outside world .> >> >> >> > you can see yavana reference in all indian old text other than> astrology> > even in vedas i think .Even in some reference they r respected too and> they> > follows hindu gods .> >> >> >> > regrds sunil nair> >> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> >> >> > , "Sreenadh" sreesog@> > wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear All,> > > Any comment on why both these ancient scholars have a name that> means -> > > * One for whom Venus is the flag pole OR> > > * Venus the flag pole OR> > > * Kama Deva (The handsome Indian god of beauty and sex)> > >> > > Some questions:> > >> > >> > > * Can we see here any connection with the Bhrigu or Atharva> > > tradition?> > > * If some argue that both those names having same meaning was just> > > accedental - how much possibility is there for such a thing to> happen by> > > chance?> > > * Why should a Yavana pray to Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara; refer to> > > Yamala stream of Tantric tradition; refer to Prashna Upanishad;> mention> > > Veda-Vedanga etc as well?> > > * Why they are not referring to even a single Greek god?> > > * Why the names of both of them are totally Indian in nature?> > > * If the original Yavaneswara they are referring to belonged to BC> > > 1400 (the period of Parasara who too mention Yavaneswara) then - who> are> > > these Yavanas?> > > * If the knowledge they present is NOT Vedic; If the knowledge they> > > provide is NOT Greek; the to which people and culture the knowledge> > > provided by Sphujidhwaja and Meenaraja belongs to?> > > * If even as per them this knowledge was part of â…•RoeAgama> > > Sastraâ…•R?, they what they mean by the word> â…•R~Agamaâ…•R??> > >> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > >> > > Sphuji Dhwaja and Meena Raja> > >> > > - Written by Sreenadh OG> > >> > > Sukra Dwaja is another name for Kama Deva, the Indian god of love,> > > beauty, affection, sex etc. I would love to call Sphuji Dwaja and> Meena> > > Raja as Sukra Dhwaja (The one having Venus as his flag pole) rather> than> > > calling them by their own name. Why ? I will explain.> > >> > > The meaning of the words Meena Raja and Sphuji Dwaja are notable.> > > Sphurat means shine. Asphujit means Venus, the evening star. Sphujit> > > also means Venus, the morning star. Dwaja means flag pole. Thus> Sphuji> > > Dwaja means, `the one for whom Venus is the flag pole'. This is none> but> > > Kama DevaH, the handsome god of desire, the god of love, sex and> beauty.> > > Yes, the same are the qualities attributed to Venus in astrology. In> > > astrology it is Venus who represent Kama DevaH, sex, beauty and> love.> > >> > > The great 19th century Kerala scholar Kaikulangara Rama Varyar in> his> > > book `Hridya Padha' reads this name as `Suchi Dwaja'. It is> interesting> > > to note that `Suchi' also means Venus among its numerous other> meanings> > > such as Sun, Moon, Lord Siva, God Kartikeya, Fire, Greeshma Ritu,> > > Cleanliness, Purity etc. Thus even the name `Suchi Dwaja' mean> `Venus> > > the flag pole'.> > >> > > `MeenaH' means Fish. The sign `MeenaH', the 12th sign of the zodiac> is> > > the exaltation sign of Venus. The word `MeenaH' also mean star. The> > > biggest and brightest star that rises in early morning is none but> the> > > `morning star' Venus. `MeenaH DwajaH' (The one for whom Venus is the> > > flag post) is just another name for KamadevaH, the handsome god.> This> > > god is known by many names ? Meena KetanaH, Meena DwajaH are just> some> > > among them. `Meena RajaH' means the king of Pisces; Star King, Venus> the> > > King. `RajaH' means ruler, the one who shine. `Sphurat' and `Raj'> mean> > > one and the same `the one which shine with light'. `Sphuji Dwaja'> and> > > `Meena Raja' (Meena Dwaja) mean one and the same ? Venus, the> morning> > > star, the symbolic significator of Kamadeva, the god of lust, love,> > > beauty, well being and happiness. Numerous quotes present in> Sphujidwaja> > > hora are present in Meenaraja hora as well. Both of them consider> the> > > ancient sage Yavaneswara (of BC 1400) as the originator of the> > > astrological tradition they follow. Numerous words and systems used> by> > > them lie outside the Vedic stream of knowledge, but still totally> Indian> > > in nature. Both of them pray to the Indian gods but still refer to> and> > > use only the Sign based system and Nirayana Zodiac which are outside> the> > > original Nigama (Vedic) Sayana steam of astrology. Meena Raja refer> to> > > the Tantric Yamala stream of knowledge and the ancient gods> > > Brahma-Vishnu-Maheswara and starts the text. Sphujidhwaja starts the> > > text with a prayer to Prajapati (Brahma).> > >> > > As you might have rightly identified, these texts seems to represent> a> > > Non-Vedic, but Indian stream of astrological knowledge, a tradition> that> > > flourished within India, around Gujarat.> > >> > > Note the following points ?> > >> > > * The names Sphuji Dwaja and Meena Raja mean the same ? i.e. Sukra> > > Dwaja (Venus the flag pole) or Kama Deva. * Both of them never refer> > > to any god or tradition outside India * Both of them pray to Indian> > > gods and starts the text * Both of them possibly lived some where> > > near Gujarat region, during 3rd century AD (It is sure that Sphuji> Dwaja> > > lived during AD 240, but the period of Meena Raja is not known with> > > correctness, even though it is assumed that he lived near to the> period> > > of Sphuji Dwaja)> > >> > > - 0 -> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi,> India. The information contained in this electronic message and any> attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the> addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged> information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not> disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender> immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.> >>