Re:Shiva worship

[Guest guest]

I have been an independent researcher looking at the historical documents.The Indian scriptures have been meddled with the dominant ruling Kings, partucularly during Jain and Buddhist periods.That is why we have different "Ramayanas" and "Buddha" is found in Mahabharata!When chronology comes, we may again differ, as we want to follow the existing one, but historically, it has many riddles that are not explained by the historians. Now, "scholars" discuss about "Jesus", "Mohammed" etc., in "Bhavisyapurana" and all.Coming to "phallic worship", I quote from Swami Vivekananda:"At the Congress, Mr. Gustav Oppert, a German Pandit, read a paper on the origin of the Shalagrama - Shila. He traced the origin of the Shalagrama worship to that emblem of the female generative principle. According to him, the Shiva - linga is

the phallic emblem of the male and the Shalagrama of the female generative principle. And thus he wanted to establish that the worship of the Shiva - Linga and that of the Shalagrama -- both are but the component parts of the worship of Linga and Yoni! The Swami repudiated the above two views (p.423)"and said that though he had heard of such ridiculous explanations about the Shiva - Linga, the other theory of the Shalagrama - Shila was quite new and strange, and seemed groundless to him. The Swami said that the worship of the Shiva - Linga originated from the famous hymn in the Atharva - Veda Samhita sung in praise of the Yupa - Stambha, the sacrificial post. In that hymn a description is found of the beginningless and endless Stambha or Skambha, and it is shown that the said Skambha is put in place of the eternal Brahman. As afterwards the Yajna (sacrificial) fire, its smoke, ashes, and flames, the Soma plant,

and the ox that used to carry on its back the wood for the Vedic sacrifice gave place to the conception of the brightness of Shiva's body, his tawny matted - hair, his blue throat, and the riding on the bull of the Shiva, and so on -- just so, the Yupa - Skambha gave place in time to the Shiva - Linga, and was deified to the high Devahood of Shri Shankara. In the Atharva - Veda Samhita, the sacrificial cakes are also extolled along with the attributes of the Brahman. In the Linga Purana, the same hymn is expanded in the shape of stories, meant to establish the glory of the great Stambha and the superiority of Mahadeva. Again, there is another fact to be considered. The Buddhists used to erect memorial topes consecrated to the memory of Buddha; and the very poor, who were unable to build big monuments, used to express their devotion to him by dedicating miniature substitutes for them.

Similar instances are still seen in the case of Hindu temples in Varanasi and other sacred places of India where those, who cannot afford to build temples, dedicate very small temple - like constructions instead. So it might be quite probable that during the period of Buddhistic ascendancy, the rich Hindus, in imitation of the Buddhists, used to erect something as a memorial resembling their Skambha, and the poor in a similar manner copied them on a reduced scale, (p.424)"and afterwards the miniature memorials of the poor Hindus became a new addition to the Skambha. One of the names of the Buddhist Stupas (memorial topes) is Dhatu - garbha, that is, "metal - wombed". Within the Dhatu - garbha, in small cases made of stone, shaped like the present Shalagrama, used to be preserved the ashes, bones, and other remains of the distinguished Buddhist Bhikshus, along with gold, silver, and other metals. The Shalagrama -

Shilas are natural stones resembling in form these artificially - cut stone - cases of the Buddhist Dhatu - garbha, and thus being first worshipped by the Buddhists, gradually got into Vaishnavism, like many other forms of Buddhistic worship that found their way into Hinduism. On the banks of the Narmada and in Nepal, the Buddhistic influence lasted longer than in other parts of India; and the remarkable coincidence that the Narmadeshvara Shiva - Linga, found on the banks of the Narmada and hence so called, and the Shalagrama - Shilas of Nepal are given preference to by the Hindus to those found elsewhere in India is a fact that ought to be considered with respect to this point of contention. The explanation of the Shalagrama - Shila as a phallic emblem was an imaginary invention and, from the very beginning, beside the mark. The explanation of the Shiva - Linga as a phallic emblem was brought forward by the most

thoughtless, and was forthcoming in India in her most degraded times, those of the downfall of Buddhism. The filthiest Tantrika literature of Buddhism of those times is yet largely found and practised in Nepal and Tibet. (p.425)The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 4, THE PARIS CONGRESS OF THE HISTORY 0F RELIGIONS"Being scheduled to speak on September 7, he was present when a paper was read that morning by a Mr. Gustav Oppert, a German Orientalist, who tried to trace the origin of the Shalagrama-Shila and the Shiva-Linga to mere phallicism. To this the Swami objected, adducing proofs from the Vedas, and particularly the Atharva-Veda Samhita, to the effect that the Shiva-Linga had its origin in the idea of the Yupa-Stambha or Skambha, the sacrificial post idealized in Vedic ritual as the symbol of the Eternal Brahman. "As afterwards," said the Swami, "the Yajna (sacrificial) fire, its smoke, ashes, and flames, the Soma plant,

and the ox that used to carry on its back the wood for the Vedic sacrifice gave place to the conceptions of the brightness of Shiva's body, his tawny matted hair, his blue throat and the riding on the bull of Shiva, and so on -- just so, the Yupa-Skambha gave place in time to the Shiva-Linga, and was deified to the high Devahood (godhood) of Shri Shankara." Then, also, the Shiva-Linga might have been more definitely developed through the influence of Buddhism, with its Bauddha Stupas, or memorial topes, in which the relics, either of the Buddha himself or of some great Buddhist Bhikshus, used to be deposited. It was quite probable that during the Buddhistic ascendancy the Hindus adopted this custom and used to erect memorials resembling their Skambha. The Shalagrama-Shilas were natural stones, resembling the artificially cut stones of the Dhatu-garbha, or "metal - wombed", stone reliquaries of the Bauddha Stupas, and these, being first worshipped by the

Buddhists, gradually found their way into Vaishnavism. The explanation of the Shalagrama-Shila as a phallic emblem was an imaginary invention. A degenerate period in India, following the downfall of Buddhism, had brought on the association of sex with the Shiva-Linga. In reality, the Shiva-Linga and the Shalagrama-Shila had no more to do with sex-worship than the Holy Communion in Christianity had in common with cannibalism. This rebuttal of Mr. Oppert's paper was, of course, extemporaneous. So also was the Swami's scheduled talk given on that same morning of September 7. In this discourse, of which......." Life of Swami Vivekanda. "...........the so - called phallic worshippers appears most horrible. Let me take two points for illustration, the phallus symbol and the sacrament of the Christians. To the Christians the phallus is horrible, and to the Hindus the Christian sacrament is horrible. They say that

the Christian sacrament, the killing of a man and the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood to get the good qualities of that man, is cannibalism. This is what some of the savage tribes do; if a man is brave, they kill him and eat his heart, because they think that it will give them the qualities of courage and bravery possessed by that man. Even such a devout Christian as Sir John Lubbock admits this and says that the origin of this Christian symbol is in this savage idea. The Christians, of course, do not admit this view of its origin; and what it may imply never comes to their mind. It stands for holy things, and that is all they want to know. "The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 2, [ Page : 379] THE IDEAL OF A UNIVERSAL RELIGION

[Guest guest]

I am not sure if touching this old thread will be wise. Nevertheless,

for whatever it is worth:

 

1. Rudra first or Linga first?

Obviously, the former. In the evolution of practiced religion, it can

be easily observed that Mantra Sastra for a Devata far precedes the

symbolism and methodology of worship.

 

Rudra's presence in the Riks is very minimal. It is around Sri Rudram

of Yajurveda, that the whole school of worship of Siva-Rudra-Isvara is

formulated.

 

The pillars of Saiva Vidyas are found in Sri Rudram: the Mula mantras

of vidyas like Pancakshari, Pasupata, Mrtyunjaya are found there. Even

the vidyas like Ajapa and Nishkala that are paramount in Saiva, are

found in Veda, and are related to Saiva by Baudhayana in the Mahanyasa

Khanda.

 

Linga form finds mention in later literature, and is a formulation

over Saiva rather than the source of Saiva.

 

The dhyana sloka of Sri Rudram goes... " aapataala nabhasthalaanta

bhuvana brahmaanda maavisphurat jyotisphatika LINGA mauli vilasat... "

 

And we find the references to Linga form in many places subsequently,

mainly in the Maha Bharata. The curse on Rudra given by the Rishis to

be present in Linga form, Arjuna worshiping the Linga in

Kiratarjuneeya and so on are upakhyanas in MBH.

 

2. Symbolism or literalism?

The link to Yupasthambha mentioned by Sri Vedaprakash is very

pertinent, since Rudra is the ruler of death and Yupastambha or bali

sthana of yanjasala is therefore ruled by Him. The transcendental

principle is reflected in the Dikpalaka sequence: Rudra is Eesana, the

resident of northern house, ruler of north-east and the friend of the

ruler of north, enemy of literal death (Yama - south), consort of the

diametrically opposite and complementary Dikpalika Nirriti/Kali. Thus

He is the ruler of death in transcendental sense as well as the enemy

of the literal sense of death. In fact He is the presider of all

sacrifice/Yajna and therefore occupies central place is the Veda of

sacrifice - Yajus. Sacrifice IS transcendence.

 

Thus the mention of Linga symbol does not precede the mention of the

transcendental principle. However, that Linga-Yoni represent the

Siva-Sakti principle is not a secret. The bija-kshetra dual represent

mula-vyapaka tatvas of Siva and Sakti respectively. And it is not

Siva's Linga or Sakti's Yoni as it is represented in the

anthropomorphic sense. Siva IS the Bija and Sakti IS the Yoni of the

Universe. What is symbolic in the macrocosm, becomes literal in the

microcosm. Thus the phallic link is not all that irrelevant. At the

same time it should be understood that it is a means to divinize the

terrestrial (which is the goal of all sadhana) and not a means to

terrestrialize the Divine.

 

The transcendental nature of Linga is clearly explained by the early

references themselves - Maha Narayana Upanishad, which is among the

earliest references, praises Him as urdhva linga, urdhva retas and so on.

 

Astronomy and Rudra

In the early references, Devi is praised as Rudra Bhagini and not

Rudra Patni. This is because the earliest Vedic references to Devi

were to the Vak form or Saraswati, and not the Sakti form.

 

With generalization of the philosophy, as Vak became an aspect of the

Primal Energy, Devi came to be praised as Kanya, Simha Vahini and

Rudra Patni.

 

In the astronomical context, Rudra is Ardra. Vak is Saraswati, the

Kacchapi or Upsilon Lyra. Devi is Kanya (above Leo - Simha Vahini).

Vrshabha (Taurus) is the vehicle of union (Mithuna). The Lord and the

Mother are called Krittivasa (Sri Rudram) and Krttivasini, as Krttikas

form a big part of Vrshabha.

 

This makes it clear, that the Rudra-Rudrani is not borrowed poetry of

Veda but corresponds to the basic structure of Veda and is entirely in

line with it - covering Adhidaivika, Adhyatmika and Adhijyotisha aspects.

 

Astrology and Rudra

With transcendental principle comes another important aspect - the

knowledge of transcendental knowledge. Guru or Brhaspati reflects as

an aspect of Dakshinamurty, the Satvic form of Rudra who is the

Guru-the teacher. Thus Rudra becomes the presiding deity of Guru graha.

 

 

 

, Vedaprakash

Vedaprakash <vedamvedaprakash wrote:

>

> I have been an independent researcher looking at the historical

documents.

>

> The Indian scriptures have been meddled with the dominant ruling

Kings, partucularly during Jain and Buddhist periods.

>

> That is why we have different " Ramayanas " and " Buddha " is found in

Mahabharata!

>

> When chronology comes, we may again differ, as we want to follow the

existing one, but historically, it has many riddles that are not

explained by the historians.

>

> Now, " scholars " discuss about " Jesus " , " Mohammed " etc., in

" Bhavisyapurana " and all.

>

> Coming to " phallic worship " , I quote from Swami Vivekananda:

>

> " At the Congress, Mr. Gustav Oppert, a German Pandit, read a paper

on the origin of the Shalagrama - Shila. He traced the origin of the

Shalagrama worship to that emblem of the female generative principle.

According to him, the Shiva - linga is the phallic emblem of the male

and the Shalagrama of the female generative principle. And thus he

wanted to establish that the worship of the Shiva - Linga and that of

the Shalagrama -- both are but the component parts of the worship of

Linga and Yoni! The Swami repudiated the above two views (p.423)

>

> " and said that though he had heard of such ridiculous explanations

about the Shiva - Linga, the other theory of the Shalagrama - Shila

was quite new and strange, and seemed groundless to him.

>

> The Swami said that the worship of the Shiva - Linga originated

from the famous hymn in the Atharva - Veda Samhita sung in praise of

the Yupa - Stambha, the sacrificial post. In that hymn a description

is found of the beginningless and endless Stambha or Skambha, and it

is shown that the said Skambha is put in place of the eternal Brahman.

As afterwards the Yajna (sacrificial) fire, its smoke, ashes, and

flames, the Soma plant, and the ox that used to carry on its back the

wood for the Vedic sacrifice gave place to the conception of the

brightness of Shiva's body, his tawny matted - hair, his blue throat,

and the riding on the bull of the Shiva, and so on -- just so, the

Yupa - Skambha gave place in time to the Shiva - Linga, and was

deified to the high Devahood of Shri Shankara. In the Atharva - Veda

Samhita, the sacrificial cakes are also extolled along with the

attributes of the Brahman.

>

> In the Linga Purana, the same hymn is expanded in the shape of

stories, meant to establish the glory of the great Stambha and the

superiority of Mahadeva.

>

> Again, there is another fact to be considered. The Buddhists

used to erect memorial topes consecrated to the memory of Buddha; and

the very poor, who were unable to build big monuments, used to express

their devotion to him by dedicating miniature substitutes for them.

Similar instances are still seen in the case of Hindu temples in

Varanasi and other sacred places of India where those, who cannot

afford to build temples, dedicate very small temple - like

constructions instead. So it might be quite probable that during the

period of Buddhistic ascendancy, the rich Hindus, in imitation of the

Buddhists, used to erect something as a memorial resembling their

Skambha, and the poor in a similar manner copied them on a reduced

scale, (p.424)

>

> " and afterwards the miniature memorials of the poor Hindus became a

new addition to the Skambha.

>

> One of the names of the Buddhist Stupas (memorial topes) is

Dhatu - garbha, that is, " metal - wombed " . Within the Dhatu - garbha,

in small cases made of stone, shaped like the present Shalagrama, used

to be preserved the ashes, bones, and other remains of the

distinguished Buddhist Bhikshus, along with gold, silver, and other

metals. The Shalagrama - Shilas are natural stones resembling in form

these artificially - cut stone - cases of the Buddhist Dhatu - garbha,

and thus being first worshipped by the Buddhists, gradually got into

Vaishnavism, like many other forms of Buddhistic worship that found

their way into Hinduism. On the banks of the Narmada and in Nepal, the

Buddhistic influence lasted longer than in other parts of India; and

the remarkable coincidence that the Narmadeshvara Shiva - Linga, found

on the banks of the Narmada and hence so called, and the Shalagrama -

Shilas of Nepal are given preference to by the Hindus to those found

> elsewhere in India is a fact that ought to be considered with

respect to this point of contention.

>

> The explanation of the Shalagrama - Shila as a phallic emblem

was an imaginary invention and, from the very beginning, beside the

mark. The explanation of the Shiva - Linga as a phallic emblem was

brought forward by the most thoughtless, and was forthcoming in India

in her most degraded times, those of the downfall of Buddhism. The

filthiest Tantrika literature of Buddhism of those times is yet

largely found and practised in Nepal and Tibet. (p.425)

>

> The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 4, THE PARIS

CONGRESS OF THE HISTORY 0F RELIGIONS

>

> " Being scheduled to speak on September 7, he was present when a

paper was read that morning by a Mr. Gustav Oppert, a German

Orientalist, who tried to trace the origin of the Shalagrama-Shila and

the Shiva-Linga to mere phallicism. To this the Swami objected,

adducing proofs from the Vedas, and particularly the Atharva-Veda

Samhita, to the effect that the Shiva-Linga had its origin in the idea

of the Yupa-Stambha or Skambha, the sacrificial post idealized in

Vedic ritual as the symbol of the Eternal Brahman. " As afterwards, "

said the Swami, " the Yajna (sacrificial) fire, its smoke, ashes, and

flames, the Soma plant, and the ox that used to carry on its back the

wood for the Vedic sacrifice gave place to the conceptions of the

brightness of Shiva's body, his tawny matted hair, his blue throat and

the riding on the bull of Shiva, and so on -- just so, the

Yupa-Skambha gave place in time to the Shiva-Linga, and was deified to

the high Devahood (godhood) of

> Shri Shankara. " Then, also, the Shiva-Linga might have been more

definitely developed through the influence of Buddhism, with its

Bauddha Stupas, or memorial topes, in which the relics, either of the

Buddha himself or of some great Buddhist Bhikshus, used to be

deposited. It was quite probable that during the Buddhistic ascendancy

the Hindus adopted this custom and used to erect memorials resembling

their Skambha. The Shalagrama-Shilas were natural stones, resembling

the artificially cut stones of the Dhatu-garbha, or " metal - wombed " ,

stone reliquaries of the Bauddha Stupas, and these, being first

worshipped by the Buddhists, gradually found their way into

Vaishnavism. The explanation of the Shalagrama-Shila as a phallic

emblem was an imaginary invention. A degenerate period in India,

following the downfall of Buddhism, had brought on the association of

sex with the Shiva-Linga. In reality, the Shiva-Linga and the

Shalagrama-Shila had no more to do

> with sex-worship than the Holy Communion in Christianity had in

common with cannibalism.

>

> This rebuttal of Mr. Oppert's paper was, of course,

extemporaneous. So also was the Swami's scheduled talk given on that

same morning of September 7. In this discourse, of which....... " Life

of Swami Vivekanda.

>

> " ...........the so - called phallic worshippers appears most

horrible. Let me take two points for illustration, the phallus symbol

and the sacrament of the Christians. To the Christians the phallus is

horrible, and to the Hindus the Christian sacrament is horrible. They

say that the Christian sacrament, the killing of a man and the eating

of his flesh and the drinking of his blood to get the good qualities

of that man, is cannibalism. This is what some of the savage tribes

do; if a man is brave, they kill him and eat his heart, because they

think that it will give them the qualities of courage and bravery

possessed by that man. Even such a devout Christian as Sir John

Lubbock admits this and says that the origin of this Christian symbol

is in this savage idea. The Christians, of course, do not admit this

view of its origin; and what it may imply never comes to their mind.

It stands for holy things, and that is all they want to know. " The

Complete Works

> of Swami Vivekananda, Volume 2, [ Page : 379] THE IDEAL OF A

UNIVERSAL RELIGION

>