Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear All, I would like to introduce our new member Vinay Jha to all of you. Details taken from: http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Vinay+Jha Love and Regards,Sreenadh=============================BIODATA of Vinay Jha . .. (summary )A lifelong brahmachari ( recluse, monk), software developer, astrologer, weather scientist, etc Qualifications : Topped in science subjects in middle board of CBSE in 1973 in Delhi, Studied science Then topped in English (Hons) in 1980-82 batch, LN Mithila University. Thereafter took refuse from mundane (selfish) works, became a recluse. Studied privately ( esp. Comparative Linguistics, Jyotisha, Philosophy, etc) from Late Dr Lakshamana Jha (Ph.D., School of Oriental and African Studies or SOAS, London ), former Vice Chancellor of LN Mithila University and a Bala-brahmachari Sadhu. Experience & Works : Decision by KSD Sanskrit University, Bihar, India in April 2007 to rectify its almanac (Panchaanga) with the help of software developed by Vinay Jha (after a decision by Patna High Court). Decision of Department of Jyotisha , KSD Sanskrit University, Bihar, India in Sep 2008 to work on four projects related to natural disasters (forecasting Rains, Floods, Cyclones, Earthquakes) with the collaboration of and according to the computations of Vinay Jha.Decision of Department of Jyotisha , KSD Sanskrit University to include Vinay Jha among the three editors of its famous Vishvavidyalaya Panchangam, other two editors being present and former Heads of Dept of Jyotisha. Verification of rain forecasts by scientist at Climate branch of NASA headquarters in USA ( Goddard Space Flight Centre or GSFC in Maryland ).Research paper 'A New Approach To Rain Forecasting' accepted by CAOS of IISc ( Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore) for presentation at international conference 'Celebrating the Monsoons' (24-28 July, 2007, IISc, Bangalore). Chief Editor of Mithila Times (Weekly Magazine) since Dec,1984 (now not published regularly). Almanac-maker (पंचांगकार) of 8 governmental and other agencies, including almanacs published by: Adityavahini Panchangam (Puri's Shankaracharya's Govardhana Math),Sanskrit Academy Panchangam (HRD Ministry, Govt of Bihar),Patna,India. Surya Panchangam, Raipur, Chhattisgarh, India (Murari Vajpeyi)Aditya Panchangam, Varanasi, India (Dr Parasnath Ojha).Prayagraja Panchangam, Allahabad, India (Dr Girija Shankar Shastri). Mithila Panchanga, Darbhanga, India (Dr Radhakant Mishra,Dr Udishta Narayan Jha, & c). Parmartha Panchangam, Mainpuri, UP, India.Parankusha Panchangam, Gaya, Bihar, India. Maker of scores of softwares related to Horoscope, Astronomy, Weather Forecasting, etc, but only the horoscope software KUNDALEE is being distributed (free of cost). Edited or wrote hundreds of online articles, few on Jyotisha, mostly on Indology. Hundreds of articles & c published in magazines (not interested in writing on Jyotisha due to lack of good students). Elucidation of secret techniques of Suryasiddhantic almanac, published in Jyotisha Vaijnaniki Patrika, by Dr Nagendra Pandey, Sampoornanand Sanskrit University (Benaras). Papers and Lectures in Seminars : A New Approach To Rain Forecasting ( presented in the International conference Celebrating The Monsoons (July 24-28) held by CAOS (Centre of Atmospheric & Oceanic Sciences ) of Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore. This article can be downloaded from the site weatherindia (see link given in the Home Page) Suryasiddhantiya Parnchanga Ki Nirmana Vidhi ( Hindi, presented in summarised form in the national conference at Sampoornanand Sanskrit University in Varanasi on Oct 18-19,2005 ( It was unanimously accepted by all leading astrologers of Hindi speaking states participating in this conference that all panchangas / almanacs ought to be made solely from Surya-siddhanta). This article can be downloaded from this site (see link below the Home Page). Influence of Indian Astrology upon the World (Hindi): invited lecture in Kalidasa Academy ( Vikram University ), Ujjain, MP, India. This article can be downloaded from this site (see link below the Home Page).Published Book : Suryasiddhanta : Mathematical Analysis of Physical and Noumenal Worlds ( Second edition with thorough expansion is to be published shortly). This book can be downloaded from this website (unrevised edition).============================= , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> [ Cf. [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...) - Imp ]> > RNI wrote "There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic> literature and in the Mahabharata(MBh). The single verse much cited by> astrologers in the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation."> > MBh clearly mentions the birthtime configurations of pandavas in> astrological terms, although complete horoscopes are not given. Many> concepts of astrology are clearly mentioned in MBh which are> erroneously believed to be of later origins, eg Sarvatobhadra Chakra> whose name appears in written form only during medieval period, but> was used by Karna in MBH. > > Most important of all, the original story of MBh contains a proof> which suggests that both MBh and Suryasiddhanta belong to a> prehistoric eras : the measure of a YOJANA . I've devoted a chapter on> this most important but neglected topic in my book in Hindi, and I> will translate that page in English on some of my webpages IF some> readers are interested in it. > > RNI hurries to conclusions without examining ancient texts with the> keen eyes of a pathologist or a telescope user. I scanned entire MBh> for its references to astrology, and my notes filled up 19 fullscape> pages, although MBh is not a work on astrology. Had I scanned MBh with> a preconceived notion that there was no astrology in MBh, I would not> have found anything at all. > > If some proof of Rama's horoscope in Ramayana is found, it is declared> to be an interpolation : but on what grounds? Ramayana has too many> astrological references. There is no ground to suppose that all such> references are interpolations.> > RNI wrote "May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate> the Vedic Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara> Sankranti)to be observed on 14th January." Christian New Year> commenced from nirayana Makar Samkranti for sixteen centuries, before> tropicalists substracted 13 days and now Jan-1 comes 13 days before> Makar Samkranti. God saved Christians from this abominable Makar> Samkranti, and now RNI wishes "May God save Hinduism" too.> > If Vedic Astrology has no power to predict things, what is its use?> Merely a museum piece? Persons who have no interest in the real issues> of Vedic astrology have some hidden agendas : to prove that horoscopic> astrology was an importation from Greece, although it is well known> that Greece discovered nothing in astrology, and Greece itself> imported astrology from Egypt/Sumer. > > One historian (DD Kosambi) had noted that PIE (Proto Indo European)> had a common term for foot, but no common term for hand ; he asked :> does it prove that Aryans had no hands before they separated from PIE?> Veda is not an encyclopaedia to contain everything. All Vaidikas know> fully well that any Vedic ritual cannot be performed without Vedic> Astrology. If auspiciousness of time is immaterial, then yajna is also> immaterial.> > The proof of Vedic astrology is its predictive power. Mere> philological discussions will lead nowhere, because the practical> techniques of Vedic Astrology are still orally transmitted secrets.> Looking for Mt Meru in Pamir/Kailash/North Pole is futile, because> ancients believed otherwise. Nirayana astrology is not sidereal> astrology, because the physical stars are not fixed. World horoscope> made from Mt Meru gives reliable predictions for the whole world.> Readers may view one such reference at> http://www.mysticboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=58522 & sid=3fb778d10ff59869d8a1804cd40ea008> (also at > http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/World+Economy+%3A+Apr+2009-Mar+2010 )> > RNI says "I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions". I> invite such skeptics to view such proofs, but it will require a> knowledge of predictive methods of texts like Brihat Parashara Hora> Shastra. Vedic Astrology is an alive science, but distorted during> modern age by those who were cut off from the ancient roots. I will> supply ample evidences in a phased manner.> > -VJ> ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > Dear RNI ji,> > ==>> > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his> > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar to> > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates he> > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are in> > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this> > book to the file section.> > <==> > What about "Atharva Parisishta"? I wonder why it was not> mentioned by> > you! The text is available. A small note on Atharva Parisishta is given> > below -> > ======================================> > > > Atharava Parisishta> > > > This text is currently available in Devanagari Script without> > commentary, published by Chaukhamba Orientalia, Bangalow Road, Near> > Kamala Nagar, New Delhi.> > > > As the name suggests the word `Atharva Parisishta' refers> > to `rudiments of Atharva Veda'; rudiments that are part of the original> > Atharva Veda text or ancient vedic quotes that complements the subjects> > dealt within Atharva Veda in one way or the other. This text is ancient> > and authentic.> > > > For the availability of this ancient text in printed form,> > we are indebted to two eminent western Sanskrit philologists – Dr.> > Bolling and Dr. Negelein, who published this text in Roman script in AD> > 1909. The original manuscript of this text is available in various> > manuscript libraries in India and abroad, but none in print except the> > copy printed in Roman script by Dr. Bolling and Nr. Negelein. The> > current rendering of the same in Devanagari script is done by Ram Kumar> > Rai and published by Chaukhamba Orientalia.> > > > Similar to a Samhita text like Brihat Samhita, this text> > deals with numerous subjects related and unrelated to astrology. Some of> > the chapter names will give an idea about the vast amount of> > astrological info present in this text. To quote some chapter names> > – Nakshatra Kalpa (Stellar astrology), Vrishotsarga, Indra> > Mahotsava, Sambhara Lakshana, Arani Lakshana, Yajna patra Lakshana, Vedi> > Lakshana, Kundha Lakshana, Samit Lakshana, Sruva Lakshana, Hasta> > Lakshana (Palmistry), Jwala Lakshana (Omens by Flame), Chandra> > Pratipadikam, Graha Yuddha (Planetary war), Graha Samgraha (about> > planets), Rahu chara (Transit of Rahu), Ketu chara (Transit of Ketu),> > Kurma Vibhaga (geographical astrology), Dig daha Lakshana, Nirkhata> > Lakshana, Nakshatra Grahotpata Lakshana (Omens by Nakshatras and> > planets), Utpata Lakshanam, Atbhuta Santi etc to name a few.> > > > I suggest those who know Sanskrit to get a copy of this> > ancient that is a solid proof for the fact that Vedas (especially> > Atharva Veda) does deal with Predictive astrology in detail.> > > > ================> > > > Hope this clarifies the doubt of many about the existence of> > predictive astrology in Vedas. The following 4 texts can serve as the> > basic background for the reconstruction of ancient Vedic astrology that> > bases itself on the movement of Tropical Zodiac against the fixed> > Nakshatra Chakra.> > 1) Atharva Parisishta> > 2) Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha> > 3) Atharva Vedeeya Jyotisha> > 4) Atharvana Jyotish (Atma Jyotisha)> > An in-depth study of all these 4 texts clarifies that , the subject> > dealt within all these texts are consistent and is in tune with the> > Atharva Vedic tradition of Stellar Tropical astrology. These texts are> > enough to provide sufficient background to provide and facilitate the> > re-construction of ancient Stellar Tropical Vedic astrology. Coupled> > with the bits of available in other Vedanga Jyotisha texts, Vedic and> > Epic literature - now anyone can try re-constructing this ancient branch> > of astrology.> > > > Apart from the following points directly connected to Vedas also> > should be noted -> > * Atharva veda provides a quote in which it is said that - "The> native> > took birth in Moola Nakshatra may distroy his clan and also that the> > native took birth in Jyeshta Nakshatra may cause the death of his elder> > brother". This is proof for the direct presence of astrology in Atharva> > Veda.> > * Vedas mention about "Good and Bad" Muhura. The classification of> > Muhurta into good or bad clearly indicates the existance of predictive> > astrology.> > * Rig Veda and Atharva Veda speak about the "Good and Bad" nature of> > Nakshatras and prays let such and such Nakshatra bring us good results> > etc. Connecting Nakshatras with the "possible results" is a clear proof> > for the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period.> > > > The Kaulian argument is that the mention of all the planets are not> > available in Vedas. I wonder what is his opinion about Vedic sages! He> > must be considering them as fools, but still he agues in favor of> > reinstalling a calendar followed by them! I wonder why?! Any way that is> > another point, here goes the proof regarding the knowledge of the Vedic> > sages about the planets. Check this article at:> >> hinducivilizationVedic%20Proof%20of\> > %20Planets.pdf <../../../..Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Planets.pdf>> > * So the question is by supporting such baseless Kaulian arguments,> > are we upgrading or degrading the ancient indian culture?> > * If someone with a vested interest with a missionary zeal starts> > arguing in favor of xian western direction - should we support it or> > not?> > * If someone resorts to mere name calling and blaming of the very> > scholers such as the Sages (Parasara, Lomasa, Vasishta etc), Mihira,> > Aryabhata and numerous others who contributed to indian culture -> > should we accept and praise it or to understand the vested interests> > involved?> > * If someone starts arguing that Krishnashtami, Rama Navama,> > Sivaratrit etc are all baseless since they are all not mentioned in the> > Vedas - we should appreciate it or not? If some one argue that all> > festivals except the four which are based on 4 cardinal points such as> > solstices and equinoxes, should be rejected - should we praise it or see> > the xian vested interest involved?> > > > So the base question would be – are we wise enough to see the> > vested xian interest behind the missionary mission of people with vested> > interest or not or do we foolishly succumb to their agenda?!!!> > > > Regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > > > hinducivilization , "aareni" <aareni@> wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Moderator,> > > Thanks for your kind words. I have Responded to Kaul several times on> > IC> > > and HC and I don't like to write the same things again and again.> > About> > > Phala Jyotisha, horoscope, greek influence etc the same stuff is> > > recycled. I don't read many of the posts by certain members, because I> > > know what they like to say. It is a waste of time telling the same> > thing> > > again and again. However bowing to your request I am reposting a> > message> > > (giving my views about Kaul's posts) I wrote on 26 Sept, 2007. About> > his> > > opponents' views I hardly find anything solid to write about. As far> > as> > > Mr. Jai Maharaj's posts are concerned I don't respond to his after he> > > threatened me with libel! Not that I took it seriously, but this made> > me> > > understand his level of knowledge of Sanskrit and Jyotisha to be> > > unworthy of response. Those who like to discuss should read the> > original> > > books, previous posts on the subject and then comment. At present what> > > is happening on the list is mostly a street fight. The loudest man> > > thinks he has won. But the silent majority knows that this is not> > true!> > >> > > Here is my HC #21562:> > >> > > Dear Sri Kaul and members of HC: I seem to have hurt the feelings of> > Sri> > > Kaul. If yes, I am sorry; that was not my intention at all. In any> > > case this would be my last post on the agenda driven posts of "Vedic> > > Astrology" of Sri Avatar Krishna Kaul. (AKK for short, with no> > > disrespect shown). What has been posted by AKK is all> > > `CharvitacharvaNam' and I am not interested in wasting my time going> > > point by point. Instead of responding crisply to the two points I had> > > raised he has made a overkill! I concede I am not capable of saying> > the> > > same points again and again like missionaries with an agenda to> > convert> > > the opinions of the listeners. This group is made of diverse people> > with> > > varied interests. Some overlap with mine and many do not. I am sure> > this> > > applies to other members also. I picked up selectively only two> > points> > > from the Rotary talk of AKK. That is right! Because IMHO, in a> > > discussion we need to do only that. I have previously appreciated his> > > posts when they started appearing for the first time or at least when> > I> > > first came across them. My agreement with him has been largely limited> > > to> > >> > > 1) Winter solstice (UttarayaNa puNyakaala) is on December 23rd and> > not> > > on January 14th. The present day almanacs have to correct this. I have> > > also presented epigraphic evidences that ~500 or 1000 years back it> > was> > > celebrated on nearly the correct day. The mistake seems to have> > started> > > in the 19th century or thereabout. If corrected this of course changes> > a> > > few other dates like Summer solstice and the equinoctial days, which> > > have come down to us as part of our common `Vedic' ancestry.> > >> > > 2) There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic> > literature> > > and in the Mahabharata. The single verse much cited by astrologers in> > > the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation.> > >> > > Differences with AKK are on the following:> > >> > > 3) About the knowledge of planets in the Vedas, the information is> > > equivocal. Sometimes it appears they knew, sometimes not. In such> > cases> > > it is better to present both the sides of the story and leave the> > > judgment to the members/readers. Same is the case with the twelve> > Rashi> > > divisions. To keep this post short I like to just say that RV samhita> > > has hymns which hint at animal like symbols in the sky. See> > particularly> > > the not well understood `Jemana' in the 10th Mandala. This certainly> > > does not prove that Vedic people knew Horoscopes much less that they> > > practiced the type of modern astrology sold on our streets today.> > There> > > are other such points but the above is sufficient.> > >> > > 4) The word "vedic" has been used and abused in various ways in the> > > English language. Previously on the IC list there was a debate on> > "Vedic> > > Mathematics" of Swami Bharati Krishna Tirtha. Some argue that it is> > not> > > Vedic because the text of the learned Swami is not found in any Vedic> > > literature known to us. Also there is an Indian English nuance here.> > > What the Swami seems to claim is that it is "Vaidika GaNita" which> > > makes perfect sense in Sanskrit. It is only related to Vedas in some> > > broad sense (Vedasya idam = vaidikam). This may be just an emotional> > or> > > spiritual connection as for an intuitive knowledge. Hence definitions> > of> > > technical words are very important before theories are proposed or> > > denounced. In relation to astrology or Phala-jyotisha what I have> > been> > > pointing out is that the roots are traceable to the Vedas. There is no> > > contradiction in my views posted on different dates. Belief in> > > astrology, even if its roots are in the Vedas is a different issue.> > When> > > I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions, it does not> > > matter whether I believe the predictions or not. I am not agenda> > driven> > > either way. To put it more picturesquely, I neither hunt with the> > > hounds nor run with the hares.> > >> > > 5) There is a more subtle point in the above. Vedas and Vedanga as a> > > collection of texts are different from "Vedic culture" although> > > connected closely. No one can claim that all the Vedic literature was> > > created in one day or one year or in one generation. But in> > discussions> > > many telescope their historical perception and exhibit their myopia in> > > not understanding the evolution of the cultural traits over the> > > millennia. If the names of the planets do not appear in Samhitas in> > the> > > way we use them now, how does it prove that Vedic people did not know> > > the planets? To the best of my knowledge our common Vedic tradition> > > holds that many Vedic shakhas and texts are lost over time. This will> > > not mean that the culture is also forgotten and lost. It would be> > living> > > in various forms, myths, rituals, beliefs etc. And our common culture> > > has been varied and pluralistic. There was a time (and place) in India> > > when Vedas were treated to be "only Three" (Thrayee). But now we do> > > include AtharvaNa Veda without any reservation. I pointed out AV> > > Parishista names the planets, (no Rashis) gives Puja vidhana (for> > > remedial measures) which presupposes malefic effects of certain> > planets.> > > If AKK finds this text not to his liking and thinks it is fabricated> > it> > > is his opinion. He has presented no proof or evidence for his claim> > > other than making fervent verbal appeals to that effect. I want HC> > > members to independently read the text and draw their own conclusions.> > > The text being published in Germany does not decrease its claim for> > > being `Vaidika'. As is well known many manuscripts were shipped out of> > > India and this is one among them. Alberuni's ignorance of this text> > > does not prove anything to me.> > >> > > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his> > > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar> > to> > > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> > > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates> > he> > > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are> > in> > > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this> > > book to the file section. AKK is fond of quoting and citing SB> > Dikshit.> > > Let me quote SBD here about Atharva Jyotisha (Bharatiya Jyotish> > shastra> > > Pt.I, English Transl. by RV Vaidya pp97-100).> > >> > > "Let us now turn to... AJ. This consists of 14 Ch and 162 verses.> > > …..As we proceed further on we come across instructions about> > duties> > > to be performed on particular Muhurtas….The fourth chapter gives a> > > list of KaraNas (of thithis) with their names like those of our> > present> > > times……These verses discuss the auspicious……nature of> > planets> > > depending, of course on the strength of moon;….The following verse> > > gives names of seven days in a week calling the planets as `Lords of> > > days.'….After 100 verses one comes across…which is followed by> > > 62 more verses. This portion contains the seeds of predictional> > section> > > of astrology Jaataka… It is clear….this is not so ancient as> > Rk> > > or Yajur-J, still the consideration …that if the Meshadi Rashis> > > would have been in vogue ….they would have occurred in the text,> > > leads one to accept AJ is pretty old……This work describes a> > system> > > of astrology, very akin to and not quite different from the one which> > is> > > based on 12 rashis….No doubt can be entertained…that this> > system> > > of astrology originated and …independently developed in our> > > country.. It seems probable that although the Hindus are said to have> > > borrowed the 12 rashis from foreigners, they developed….already> > > known lines of astrology related to nakshatras".> > >> > > I rest with this.> > >> > > RNI> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Ravi" ravi7640@ wrote:> > > >> > > > "aareni" is a respected scholar contributing to our group and we> > > certainly> > > > give weightage to his views. Leaving aside the charges and counter> > > charges> > > > (a la breaking code etc) being bandied about here, could you> > sir> > > give> > > > your considered opinion analysing Kauls view point and his> > opponent's> > > to us> > > > laymen so that we get a third opinion which is unbiased?> > > > Moderator> > > > -> > > > "aareni" aareni@> > > > hinducivilization > > > > Friday, January 02, 2009 7:52 AM> > > > [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...)> > > >> > > >> > > > > Interested members including the moderator may read the postings> > on> > > > > the subject "WAVES,India- lecture on Astrology - a report" during> > > > > march 21, 2007-April 4,2007 on this list(#13535). The same so> > called> > > > > Vedic Astrologer threatened me with libel eventhough there was> > > > > nothing personal and nothing abusive in my postings. Perhaps his> > > > > clintele got reduced and hence the uncivilized threat was thrown> > at> > > > > me in this group dedicated to Hindu civilization. This is typical> > of> > > > > Delhi Govt.culture (no offence meant). When you can not defend> > > > > yourself logically, cry loudly. Better still, write a complaint> > > > > letter to the HoD with copies to President of India, PM,> > > RM....asking> > > > > for action. Make the hapless fellow waste his time in giving> > > > > explanations!! Offence appears to be the best form of defence for> > > > > some people.> > > > > May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate the> > Vedic> > > > > Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara> > Sankranti)> > > > > to be observed on 14th January.> > > > >> > > > > RNI> > > > >> > >> > > > --- End forwarded message ---> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, The link to your website is added to the links section of the group at: /links/Downloads_001194431191/ Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear All,> I would like to introduce our new member Vinay Jha to all of you.> Details taken from: http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Vinay+Jha> <http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Vinay+Jha>> Love and Regards,> Sreenadh> > =============================> BIODATA of Vinay Jha . .. (summary )> A lifelong brahmachari ( recluse, monk), software developer,> astrologer, weather scientist, etc> Qualifications :> > * Topped in science subjects in middle board of CBSE in 1973 in> Delhi, Studied science> * Then topped in English (Hons) in 1980-82 batch, LN Mithila> University.> * Thereafter took refuse from mundane (selfish) works, became a> recluse.> * Studied privately ( esp. Comparative Linguistics, Jyotisha,> Philosophy, etc) from Late Dr Lakshamana Jha (Ph.D., School of Oriental> and African Studies or SOAS, London ), former Vice Chancellor of LN> Mithila University and a Bala-brahmachari Sadhu.> Experience & Works :> > * Decision by KSD Sanskrit University, Bihar, India in April 2007> to rectify its almanac (Panchaanga) with the help of software developed> by Vinay Jha (after a decision by Patna High Court).> * Decision of Department of Jyotisha , KSD Sanskrit University,> Bihar, India in Sep 2008 to work on four projects related to> natural disasters (forecasting Rains, Floods, Cyclones, Earthquakes)> with the collaboration of and according to the computations of Vinay> Jha.> * Decision of Department of Jyotisha , KSD Sanskrit University to> include Vinay Jha among the three editors of its famous Vishvavidyalaya> Panchangam, other two editors being present and former Heads of Dept of> Jyotisha.> * Verification of rain forecasts by scientist at Climate branch of> NASA headquarters in USA ( Goddard Space Flight Centre or GSFC in> Maryland ).> * Research paper 'A New Approach To Rain Forecasting' accepted by> CAOS of IISc ( Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore) for presentation> at international conference 'Celebrating the Monsoons' (24-28 July,> 2007, IISc, Bangalore).> > * Chief Editor of Mithila Times (Weekly Magazine) since Dec,1984> (now not published regularly).> * Almanac-maker (पंचांगकार) of 8> governmental and other agencies, including almanacs published by:> > *> 1. Adityavahini Panchangam (Puri's Shankaracharya's> Govardhana Math),> 2. Sanskrit Academy Panchangam (HRD Ministry, Govt of> Bihar),Patna,India.> > 3. Surya Panchangam, Raipur, Chhattisgarh, India (Murari Vajpeyi)> > 4. Aditya Panchangam, Varanasi, India (Dr Parasnath Ojha).> > 5. Prayagraja Panchangam, Allahabad, India (Dr Girija Shankar> Shastri).> > 6. Mithila Panchanga, Darbhanga, India (Dr Radhakant Mishra,Dr> Udishta Narayan Jha, & c).> > 7. Parmartha Panchangam, Mainpuri, UP, India.> 8. Parankusha Panchangam, Gaya, Bihar, India.> > > 9. Maker of scores of softwares related to Horoscope, Astronomy,> Weather Forecasting, etc, but only the horoscope software KUNDALEE is> being distributed (free of cost).> 10. Edited or wrote hundreds of online articles, few on Jyotisha,> mostly on Indology.> 11. Hundreds of articles & c published in magazines (not interested> in writing on Jyotisha due to lack of good students).> 12. Elucidation of secret techniques of Suryasiddhantic> almanac, published in Jyotisha Vaijnaniki Patrika, by Dr> Nagendra Pandey, Sampoornanand Sanskrit University> (Benaras).> Papers and Lectures in Seminars :> > * A New Approach To Rain Forecasting ( presented in the> International conference Celebrating The Monsoons (July 24-28) held by> CAOS (Centre of Atmospheric & Oceanic Sciences ) of Indian Institute of> Science, Bangalore. This article can be downloaded from the site> weatherindia (see link given in the Home Page)> * Suryasiddhantiya Parnchanga Ki Nirmana Vidhi (> Hindi, presented in summarised form in the national conference at> Sampoornanand Sanskrit University in Varanasi on Oct> 18-19,2005 ( It was unanimously accepted by all leading astrologers of> Hindi speaking states participating in this conference that all> panchangas / almanacs ought to be made solely from> Surya-siddhanta). This article can be downloaded from this site> (see link below the Home Page).> * Influence of Indian Astrology upon the World (Hindi): invited> lecture in Kalidasa Academy ( Vikram University ), Ujjain, MP, India.> This article can be downloaded from this site (see link below the Home> Page).> Published Book :> > * Suryasiddhanta : Mathematical Analysis of Physical and Noumenal> Worlds ( Second edition with thorough expansion is to be published> shortly). This book can be downloaded from this website (unrevised> edition).> =============================> > , "vinayjhaa16"> vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> >> > [ Cf. [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...) -> Imp ]> >> > RNI wrote "There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic> > literature and in the Mahabharata(MBh). The single verse much cited by> > astrologers in the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation."> >> > MBh clearly mentions the birthtime configurations of pandavas in> > astrological terms, although complete horoscopes are not given. Many> > concepts of astrology are clearly mentioned in MBh which are> > erroneously believed to be of later origins, eg Sarvatobhadra Chakra> > whose name appears in written form only during medieval period, but> > was used by Karna in MBH.> >> > Most important of all, the original story of MBh contains a proof> > which suggests that both MBh and Suryasiddhanta belong to a> > prehistoric eras : the measure of a YOJANA . I've devoted a chapter on> > this most important but neglected topic in my book in Hindi, and I> > will translate that page in English on some of my webpages IF some> > readers are interested in it.> >> > RNI hurries to conclusions without examining ancient texts with the> > keen eyes of a pathologist or a telescope user. I scanned entire MBh> > for its references to astrology, and my notes filled up 19 fullscape> > pages, although MBh is not a work on astrology. Had I scanned MBh with> > a preconceived notion that there was no astrology in MBh, I would not> > have found anything at all.> >> > If some proof of Rama's horoscope in Ramayana is found, it is declared> > to be an interpolation : but on what grounds? Ramayana has too many> > astrological references. There is no ground to suppose that all such> > references are interpolations.> >> > RNI wrote "May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate> > the Vedic Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara> > Sankranti)to be observed on 14th January." Christian New Year> > commenced from nirayana Makar Samkranti for sixteen centuries, before> > tropicalists substracted 13 days and now Jan-1 comes 13 days before> > Makar Samkranti. God saved Christians from this abominable Makar> > Samkranti, and now RNI wishes "May God save Hinduism" too.> >> > If Vedic Astrology has no power to predict things, what is its use?> > Merely a museum piece? Persons who have no interest in the real issues> > of Vedic astrology have some hidden agendas : to prove that horoscopic> > astrology was an importation from Greece, although it is well known> > that Greece discovered nothing in astrology, and Greece itself> > imported astrology from Egypt/Sumer.> >> > One historian (DD Kosambi) had noted that PIE (Proto Indo European)> > had a common term for foot, but no common term for hand ; he asked :> > does it prove that Aryans had no hands before they separated from PIE?> > Veda is not an encyclopaedia to contain everything. All Vaidikas know> > fully well that any Vedic ritual cannot be performed without Vedic> > Astrology. If auspiciousness of time is immaterial, then yajna is also> > immaterial.> >> > The proof of Vedic astrology is its predictive power. Mere> > philological discussions will lead nowhere, because the practical> > techniques of Vedic Astrology are still orally transmitted secrets.> > Looking for Mt Meru in Pamir/Kailash/North Pole is futile, because> > ancients believed otherwise. Nirayana astrology is not sidereal> > astrology, because the physical stars are not fixed. World horoscope> > made from Mt Meru gives reliable predictions for the whole world.> > Readers may view one such reference at> >> http://www.mysticboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=58522 & sid=3fb778d10ff59869d8a\> 1804cd40ea008> > (also at> >> http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/World+Economy+%3A+Apr+2009-Mar+2010> )> >> > RNI says "I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions". I> > invite such skeptics to view such proofs, but it will require a> > knowledge of predictive methods of texts like Brihat Parashara Hora> > Shastra. Vedic Astrology is an alive science, but distorted during> > modern age by those who were cut off from the ancient roots. I will> > supply ample evidences in a phased manner.> >> > -VJ> > ========= ========= ========= ========= =========> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear RNI ji,> > > ==>> > > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in> his> > > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is> similar to> > > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> > > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates> he> > > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are> in> > > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this> > > book to the file section.> > > <==> > > What about "Atharva Parisishta"? I wonder why it was not> > mentioned by> > > you! The text is available. A small note on Atharva Parisishta is> given> > > below -> > > ======================================> > >> > > Atharava Parisishta> > >> > > This text is currently available in Devanagari Script without> > > commentary, published by Chaukhamba Orientalia, Bangalow Road, Near> > > Kamala Nagar, New Delhi.> > >> > > As the name suggests the word `Atharva Parisishta'> refers> > > to `rudiments of Atharva Veda'; rudiments that are part of the> original> > > Atharva Veda text or ancient vedic quotes that complements the> subjects> > > dealt within Atharva Veda in one way or the other. This text is> ancient> > > and authentic.> > >> > > For the availability of this ancient text in printed> form,> > > we are indebted to two eminent western Sanskrit philologists –> Dr.> > > Bolling and Dr. Negelein, who published this text in Roman script in> AD> > > 1909. The original manuscript of this text is available in various> > > manuscript libraries in India and abroad, but none in print except> the> > > copy printed in Roman script by Dr. Bolling and Nr. Negelein. The> > > current rendering of the same in Devanagari script is done by Ram> Kumar> > > Rai and published by Chaukhamba Orientalia.> > >> > > Similar to a Samhita text like Brihat Samhita, this> text> > > deals with numerous subjects related and unrelated to astrology.> Some of> > > the chapter names will give an idea about the vast amount of> > > astrological info present in this text. To quote some chapter names> > > – Nakshatra Kalpa (Stellar astrology), Vrishotsarga, Indra> > > Mahotsava, Sambhara Lakshana, Arani Lakshana, Yajna patra Lakshana,> Vedi> > > Lakshana, Kundha Lakshana, Samit Lakshana, Sruva Lakshana, Hasta> > > Lakshana (Palmistry), Jwala Lakshana (Omens by Flame), Chandra> > > Pratipadikam, Graha Yuddha (Planetary war), Graha Samgraha (about> > > planets), Rahu chara (Transit of Rahu), Ketu chara (Transit of> Ketu),> > > Kurma Vibhaga (geographical astrology), Dig daha Lakshana, Nirkhata> > > Lakshana, Nakshatra Grahotpata Lakshana (Omens by Nakshatras and> > > planets), Utpata Lakshanam, Atbhuta Santi etc to name a few.> > >> > > I suggest those who know Sanskrit to get a copy of this> > > ancient that is a solid proof for the fact that Vedas (especially> > > Atharva Veda) does deal with Predictive astrology in detail.> > >> > > ================> > >> > > Hope this clarifies the doubt of many about the existence of> > > predictive astrology in Vedas. The following 4 texts can serve as> the> > > basic background for the reconstruction of ancient Vedic astrology> that> > > bases itself on the movement of Tropical Zodiac against the fixed> > > Nakshatra Chakra.> > > 1) Atharva Parisishta> > > 2) Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha> > > 3) Atharva Vedeeya Jyotisha> > > 4) Atharvana Jyotish (Atma Jyotisha)> > > An in-depth study of all these 4 texts clarifies that , the > subject> > > dealt within all these texts are consistent and is in tune with the> > > Atharva Vedic tradition of Stellar Tropical astrology. These texts> are> > > enough to provide sufficient background to provide and facilitate> the> > > re-construction of ancient Stellar Tropical Vedic astrology.> Coupled> > > with the bits of available in other Vedanga Jyotisha texts, Vedic> and> > > Epic literature - now anyone can try re-constructing this ancient> branch> > > of astrology.> > >> > > Apart from the following points directly connected to Vedas also> > > should be noted -> > > * Atharva veda provides a quote in which it is said that - "The> > native> > > took birth in Moola Nakshatra may distroy his clan and also that the> > > native took birth in Jyeshta Nakshatra may cause the death of his> elder> > > brother". This is proof for the direct presence of astrology in> Atharva> > > Veda.> > > * Vedas mention about "Good and Bad" Muhura. The classification> of> > > Muhurta into good or bad clearly indicates the existance of> predictive> > > astrology.> > > * Rig Veda and Atharva Veda speak about the "Good and Bad" nature> of> > > Nakshatras and prays let such and such Nakshatra bring us good> results> > > etc. Connecting Nakshatras with the "possible results" is a clear> proof> > > for the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period.> > >> > > The Kaulian argument is that the mention of all the planets are> not> > > available in Vedas. I wonder what is his opinion about Vedic sages!> He> > > must be considering them as fools, but still he agues in favor of> > > reinstalling a calendar followed by them! I wonder why?! Any way> that is> > > another point, here goes the proof regarding the knowledge of the> Vedic> > > sages about the planets. Check this article at:> > >> >> hinducivilizationVedic%20Proof%20of\> \> > > %20Planets.pdf <../../../..Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Planets.pdf>> > > * So the question is by supporting such baseless Kaulian> arguments,> > > are we upgrading or degrading the ancient indian culture?> > > * If someone with a vested interest with a missionary zeal starts> > > arguing in favor of xian western direction - should we support it or> > > not?> > > * If someone resorts to mere name calling and blaming of the very> > > scholers such as the Sages (Parasara, Lomasa, Vasishta etc), Mihira,> > > Aryabhata and numerous others who contributed to indian culture -> > > should we accept and praise it or to understand the vested interests> > > involved?> > > * If someone starts arguing that Krishnashtami, Rama Navama,> > > Sivaratrit etc are all baseless since they are all not mentioned in> the> > > Vedas - we should appreciate it or not? If some one argue that all> > > festivals except the four which are based on 4 cardinal points such> as> > > solstices and equinoxes, should be rejected - should we praise it or> see> > > the xian vested interest involved?> > >> > > So the base question would be – are we wise enough to see> the> > > vested xian interest behind the missionary mission of people with> vested> > > interest or not or do we foolishly succumb to their agenda?!!!> > >> > > Regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > >> > > hinducivilization , "aareni" <aareni@> wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Moderator,> > > > Thanks for your kind words. I have Responded to Kaul several times> on> > > IC> > > > and HC and I don't like to write the same things again and again.> > > About> > > > Phala Jyotisha, horoscope, greek influence etc the same stuff is> > > > recycled. I don't read many of the posts by certain members,> because I> > > > know what they like to say. It is a waste of time telling the same> > > thing> > > > again and again. However bowing to your request I am reposting a> > > message> > > > (giving my views about Kaul's posts) I wrote on 26 Sept, 2007.> About> > > his> > > > opponents' views I hardly find anything solid to write about. As> far> > > as> > > > Mr. Jai Maharaj's posts are concerned I don't respond to his after> he> > > > threatened me with libel! Not that I took it seriously, but this> made> > > me> > > > understand his level of knowledge of Sanskrit and Jyotisha to be> > > > unworthy of response. Those who like to discuss should read the> > > original> > > > books, previous posts on the subject and then comment. At present> what> > > > is happening on the list is mostly a street fight. The loudest man> > > > thinks he has won. But the silent majority knows that this is not> > > true!> > > >> > > > Here is my HC #21562:> > > >> > > > Dear Sri Kaul and members of HC: I seem to have hurt the feelings> of> > > Sri> > > > Kaul. If yes, I am sorry; that was not my intention at all. In> any> > > > case this would be my last post on the agenda driven posts of > "Vedic> > > > Astrology" of Sri Avatar Krishna Kaul. (AKK for short, with no> > > > disrespect shown). What has been posted by AKK is all> > > > `CharvitacharvaNam' and I am not interested in wasting my time> going> > > > point by point. Instead of responding crisply to the two points I> had> > > > raised he has made a overkill! I concede I am not capable of> saying> > > the> > > > same points again and again like missionaries with an agenda to> > > convert> > > > the opinions of the listeners. This group is made of diverse> people> > > with> > > > varied interests. Some overlap with mine and many do not. I am> sure> > > this> > > > applies to other members also. I picked up selectively only two> > > points> > > > from the Rotary talk of AKK. That is right! Because IMHO, in a> > > > discussion we need to do only that. I have previously appreciated> his> > > > posts when they started appearing for the first time or at least> when> > > I> > > > first came across them. My agreement with him has been largely> limited> > > > to> > > >> > > > 1) Winter solstice (UttarayaNa puNyakaala) is on December 23rd> and> > > not> > > > on January 14th. The present day almanacs have to correct this. I> have> > > > also presented epigraphic evidences that ~500 or 1000 years back> it> > > was> > > > celebrated on nearly the correct day. The mistake seems to have> > > started> > > > in the 19th century or thereabout. If corrected this of course> changes> > > a> > > > few other dates like Summer solstice and the equinoctial days,> which> > > > have come down to us as part of our common `Vedic' ancestry.> > > >> > > > 2) There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic> > > literature> > > > and in the Mahabharata. The single verse much cited by astrologers> in> > > > the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation.> > > >> > > > Differences with AKK are on the following:> > > >> > > > 3) About the knowledge of planets in the Vedas, the information is> > > > equivocal. Sometimes it appears they knew, sometimes not. In such> > > cases> > > > it is better to present both the sides of the story and leave the> > > > judgment to the members/readers. Same is the case with the twelve> > > Rashi> > > > divisions. To keep this post short I like to just say that RV> samhita> > > > has hymns which hint at animal like symbols in the sky. See> > > particularly> > > > the not well understood `Jemana' in the 10th Mandala. This> certainly> > > > does not prove that Vedic people knew Horoscopes much less that> they> > > > practiced the type of modern astrology sold on our streets today.> > > There> > > > are other such points but the above is sufficient.> > > >> > > > 4) The word "vedic" has been used and abused in various ways in> the> > > > English language. Previously on the IC list there was a debate on> > > "Vedic> > > > Mathematics" of Swami Bharati Krishna Tirtha. Some argue that it> is> > > not> > > > Vedic because the text of the learned Swami is not found in any> Vedic> > > > literature known to us. Also there is an Indian English nuance> here.> > > > What the Swami seems to claim is that it is "Vaidika GaNita" > which> > > > makes perfect sense in Sanskrit. It is only related to Vedas in> some> > > > broad sense (Vedasya idam = vaidikam). This may be just an> emotional> > > or> > > > spiritual connection as for an intuitive knowledge. Hence> definitions> > > of> > > > technical words are very important before theories are proposed or> > > > denounced. In relation to astrology or Phala-jyotisha what I have> > > been> > > > pointing out is that the roots are traceable to the Vedas. There> is no> > > > contradiction in my views posted on different dates. Belief in> > > > astrology, even if its roots are in the Vedas is a different> issue.> > > When> > > > I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions, it does> not> > > > matter whether I believe the predictions or not. I am not agenda> > > driven> > > > either way. To put it more picturesquely, I neither hunt with the> > > > hounds nor run with the hares.> > > >> > > > 5) There is a more subtle point in the above. Vedas and Vedanga as> a> > > > collection of texts are different from "Vedic culture" although> > > > connected closely. No one can claim that all the Vedic literature> was> > > > created in one day or one year or in one generation. But in> > > discussions> > > > many telescope their historical perception and exhibit their> myopia in> > > > not understanding the evolution of the cultural traits over the> > > > millennia. If the names of the planets do not appear in Samhitas> in> > > the> > > > way we use them now, how does it prove that Vedic people did not> know> > > > the planets? To the best of my knowledge our common Vedic> tradition> > > > holds that many Vedic shakhas and texts are lost over time. This> will> > > > not mean that the culture is also forgotten and lost. It would be> > > living> > > > in various forms, myths, rituals, beliefs etc. And our common> culture> > > > has been varied and pluralistic. There was a time (and place) in> India> > > > when Vedas were treated to be "only Three" (Thrayee). But now we> do> > > > include AtharvaNa Veda without any reservation. I pointed out AV> > > > Parishista names the planets, (no Rashis) gives Puja vidhana (for> > > > remedial measures) which presupposes malefic effects of certain> > > planets.> > > > If AKK finds this text not to his liking and thinks it is> fabricated> > > it> > > > is his opinion. He has presented no proof or evidence for his> claim> > > > other than making fervent verbal appeals to that effect. I want> HC> > > > members to independently read the text and draw their own> conclusions.> > > > The text being published in Germany does not decrease its claim> for> > > > being `Vaidika'. As is well known many manuscripts were shipped> out of> > > > India and this is one among them. Alberuni's ignorance of this> text> > > > does not prove anything to me.> > > >> > > > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in> his> > > > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is> similar> > > to> > > > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> > > > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the> dates> > > he> > > > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ> are> > > in> > > > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload> this> > > > book to the file section. AKK is fond of quoting and citing SB> > > Dikshit.> > > > Let me quote SBD here about Atharva Jyotisha (Bharatiya Jyotish> > > shastra> > > > Pt.I, English Transl. by RV Vaidya pp97-100).> > > >> > > > "Let us now turn to... AJ. This consists of 14 Ch and 162 verses.> > > > …..As we proceed further on we come across instructions about> > > duties> > > > to be performed on particular Muhurtas….The fourth chapter> gives a> > > > list of KaraNas (of thithis) with their names like those of our> > > present> > > > times……These verses discuss the auspicious……nature of> > > planets> > > > depending, of course on the strength of moon;….The following> verse> > > > gives names of seven days in a week calling the planets as `Lords> of> > > > days.'….After 100 verses one comes across…which is> followed by> > > > 62 more verses. This portion contains the seeds of predictional> > > section> > > > of astrology Jaataka… It is clear….this is not so ancient> as> > > Rk> > > > or Yajur-J, still the consideration …that if the Meshadi> Rashis> > > > would have been in vogue ….they would have occurred in the> text,> > > > leads one to accept AJ is pretty old……This work describes a> > > system> > > > of astrology, very akin to and not quite different from the one> which> > > is> > > > based on 12 rashis….No doubt can be entertained…that this> > > system> > > > of astrology originated and …independently developed in our> > > > country.. It seems probable that although the Hindus are said to> have> > > > borrowed the 12 rashis from foreigners, they> developed….already> > > > known lines of astrology related to nakshatras".> > > >> > > > I rest with this.> > > >> > > > RNI> > > >> > > > hinducivilization , "Ravi" ravi7640@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > "aareni" is a respected scholar contributing to our group and we> > > > certainly> > > > > give weightage to his views. Leaving aside the charges and> counter> > > > charges> > > > > (a la breaking code etc) being bandied about here, could> you> > > sir> > > > give> > > > > your considered opinion analysing Kauls view point and his> > > opponent's> > > > to us> > > > > laymen so that we get a third opinion which is unbiased?> > > > > Moderator> > > > > -> > > > > "aareni" aareni@> > > > > hinducivilization > > > > > Friday, January 02, 2009 7:52 AM> > > > > [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro> signs...)> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Interested members including the moderator may read the> postings> > > on> > > > > > the subject "WAVES,India- lecture on Astrology - a report"> during> > > > > > march 21, 2007-April 4,2007 on this list(#13535). The same so> > > called> > > > > > Vedic Astrologer threatened me with libel eventhough there was> > > > > > nothing personal and nothing abusive in my postings. Perhaps> his> > > > > > clintele got reduced and hence the uncivilized threat was> thrown> > > at> > > > > > me in this group dedicated to Hindu civilization. This is> typical> > > of> > > > > > Delhi Govt.culture (no offence meant). When you can not defend> > > > > > yourself logically, cry loudly. Better still, write a> complaint> > > > > > letter to the HoD with copies to President of India, PM,> > > > RM....asking> > > > > > for action. Make the hapless fellow waste his time in giving> > > > > > explanations!! Offence appears to be the best form of defence> for> > > > > > some people.> > > > > > May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate the> > > Vedic> > > > > > Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara> > > Sankranti)> > > > > > to be observed on 14th January.> > > > > >> > > > > > RNI> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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