Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 dear sreenadhji while the history and roots of astronomers are disussed by more history learnt people, i may endorse your views that tantras be it right or left, satvik or tamasik all are vedic and have their roots and origins from vedas. to brand some as anti vedic is improper. if adi sankara has used a dead corpse to do parakaya pravesa it is not satvik right handed tantra for a pontiff. people shall shed inhibitions about branding tantra as a negative force. gods and devatas, besides demons, know various tricks of both right and lef hand tantra and have used it against evils, demons and enemies. indra did cast spells and used tricks of left hand tantra against sages too. in a similar thread earlier, we all concluded right or left, god or evil all having the same force and it is for the natives how to extract and use. it is like electricity having high voltage and it is upto the native to convert it into illuminating the dark world or to give shocks and kill. if one using astrology predicts the future, what about the sages and gods who were trikalajnanis who without taking any help of astrology, see the past, present and future. many such sages performed divine miracles like shirdi saibaba unrelated to science even in the recorded recent history and their clairvoyance and tantra jnana shall not be undermined. by the way, we may remember the wonder boy boris from russia who last year predicted catastrophic loss of human lives in both 2009 and 2013. since 2009 has already begun, members may find any astrological pointer for such massive loss of life either due to earthquakes, tsunamis, nuke mishaps or wars. with best wishes and blessings pandit arjun , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Vinay Jha ji, > The link you provided was very interesting. Thanks. I have pasted > the contents of the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya> at the end of this message > for the easy reference of all. > Ok. Now only I understood that you are referring to Saka- Dwipeeya > (From 'Saka' Island) People. Jambu Deepa was Asia - it is believed. > Which was Saka Dwipa? Arebian Continent? > The statement - > ==> > The Sakaldwipiya Brahmin community > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin_communities> of India identify > themselves as having Iranian > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Iran> roots, and assert that > they inherit their by-name maga from a group of priests (cf. maga > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobed> ) who established themselves in > India as the Maga-Dias or Maga-Brahmanas. > <== > Seems to point to the argument that 'Saka Dwipa = Iran " . So in > essence the argument is that, Mihira is a forginer who came to India > from Iran, or at least one who took birth in a clan that came from Iran > and settled in India. Then the question arises - was his knowledge also > came with him or did he adobpted it from India itself?!! What is your > take on this? I think there would be numerous people who would argue > against this for sure - especially in the absence of literary evidence > which states that Mihira was a 'Saka dwipiya Brahmana' - or is there > any? > The following statement is also note worthy - > ==> > Of the pious representatives of 18 families Samba invited to resettle in > the city of Sambapura, eight were Mandagas, and their descendants became > Shudras <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudra> . The other 10 were Maga > Brahmins, who married Bhoja vamsa women and so their descendants came to > be known as Bhojakas. > <== > If the descendants of those Saka people who came to india became > Shudras (Low cast) as clearly said in the above statement as indicated > by the name " Dasa " (as in Mihira's father's name - Aditya Dasa), then > how those same descendents became Brahmans?! Either they are Shudras or > Brahmins - they cannot be both at the same time! > The following statements are also noteworthy - > ==> > The Bhojakas are also mentioned in the inscriptions of Maurya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya> Ashoka > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka> and Kharavela > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharavela> . Kadamba > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadamba> dynasty (4th-6th century) > copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators of > Jain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> institutions. > The Bhojakas are historically associated with several Jain > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> temples in Gujarat and Rajasthan, > where they serve as priests and attendants. > > Kadamba <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadamba> dynasty (4th-6th > century) copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as > administrators of Jain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> > institutions. > > There are altogether 13 ´Sakadvipi gotra > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra> s: Ka´syapa > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa> , Garga > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garga> , Para´sara > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashara> , Bhrigu > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhrigu> /Bhargava > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhargava> , Kauṇá¸inya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya> , Kausala, Bharadwaj, Vasu, > Suryadatta/Arkadatta, Nala, Bhavya Maá¹i and Mihrasu. > <== > If they are not Jains then how should they be associated wtih Jain > temples - I wonder! Please also note that the popular Jain sage Garga > is also included in the above list!! > It seems that all these Iran-Shudra-Jain-Brahnama etc link will > remain contraversial for long and won't be settled!! > ==> > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic > > Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48 > > unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of > the > > former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to > > anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > like > > Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to > this > > anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like > > marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch- shalaakaa > and > > Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras. > <== > It seems that you are equating the Dakshina Tantras with Vedic and > Vama Tantras with Anti-Vedic! This could be wrong. For example, you > state that - > ==> > > Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). > <== > Kularnava Tantra is NOT Anti-Vedic; But instead quotes extensively > from Vedas. On the other hand there are several Dakshina Tantras does > not mention Vedas at all. This points to the fact that the above > statement could be wrong. > ==> > > http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning > > of Tropical. > <== > Yap, I have already posted that article in the group. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > ================================== > Sakaldwipiya From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > Jump to: navigation > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#column-one> , search > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#searchInput> > Sakaldwipiya Brahmins or Bhojaka Brahmins, is a class of Hindu > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism> priests and Ayurveda > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda> teachers (acharyas > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya> ),[1] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Sharma_1916_491-0> > with concentrations in Western- and Northern India > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> . > > " Sakaldwipiya " is a tadbhav > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_language#Tadbhav> of Sanskrit > Shakadvipiya, an -iya adjective of Shakadvipa, one of the dvipa > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvipa> ( " continents " ) of Hindu mythology > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_mythology> . Spelling variants > include Shakdvipi, Shakdwipi, Shakdweepi, Shakdvipiya, Shakdwipiya, > Shakdweepiya, Shakadwipi, and Sakadwipi.[1] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Sharma_1916_491-0> > with concentrations in Western- and Northern India > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> . > > The Sakaldwipiyas are also known as Maga Brahmins (see origin myth > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Origin_myth> below). Also > known as Maga Brahmins are the Suryadhwaja Brahmins, who however > consider themselves to be distinct from the Sakaldwipiya/Bhojaka > Brahmins. > Contents [hide] > * 1 Origin myth > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Origin_myth> > * 2 In epigraphy > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#In_epigraphy> > * 3 In contemporary sources > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#In_contemporary_sources> > * 4 Internal structures > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Internal_structures> > * 5 Distribution > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Distribution> > * 6 See also <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#See_also> > * 7 Notes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Notes> > * 8 References <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#References> > * 9 Further reading > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Further_reading> > > > [edit > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\ > ion=1> ] Origin myth > The Sakaldwipiya Brahmin community > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin_communities> of India identify > themselves as having Iranian > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Iran> roots, and assert that > they inherit their by-name maga from a group of priests (cf. maga > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobed> ) who established themselves in > India as the Maga-Dias or Maga-Brahmanas. > > The doctrinal basis for that assertion is Bhavishya Purana > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana> 133, which may be > summarized as follows:[2] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-Misra_1914_150- 1> > [3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-2> > Krishna <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna> 's son Samba was > afflicted with leprosy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy> , which > was cured after he worshiped Surya <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya> > , Hinduism's god of the Sun. In response, he built a temple to Surya on > the banks of the Chandrabhaga > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenab_River> river, but no competent > Brahmin could be found to take up the role of priest in the temple. So > Samba sought help of Gauramukha > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Gauramukha & action=edit & redlin\ > k=1> , the adviser of the yadu chief, Ugrasena > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugrasena> .Gauramukha responded with a > suggestion that Samba go to Shakdvipa (see note on Mahabharata > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata> 6:11, below[a] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#endnote_anone> ) and invite > their priests to worship Surya. Further, asked Samba, " tell me, oh > Brahmin, what are the antecedents of these worshipers of the Sun? " To > which Gauramukha replied... " The first of the Brahmins amidst the > Shakhas was called 'Sujihva.' [...] He had a daughter of the name > Nikshubha, who so enamored Surya that she was impregnated by him. Thus > she gave birth to Jarashabda who was the founding father of all the > Maga-Acharya. They are distinguished by the sacred girdle called the > Avyanga <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushti> that they wear around > their waist. " And so Samba called on Krishna to send him Garuda > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda> , on whose back he then flew to > Shakadwipa. He collected the Maga-Acharya, brought them back to India > and installed them as priests of his Surya temple.Of the pious > representatives of 18 families Samba invited to resettle in the city of > Sambapura, eight were Mandagas, and their descendants became Shudras > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudra> . The other 10 were Maga Brahmins, > who married Bhoja vamsa women and so their descendants came to be known > as Bhojakas. > As such, the Sakaldwipiya are one of only two > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#endnote_bnone> Brahmin > groups who are said to have originated outside India, even if about half > their clan names (gotra <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra> s) are the > same as those of other Brahmins. > > Whatever their original beliefs, by the time the Bhavishya Purana 133 > was composed the Sakaldwipiyas were identified as devotees of Surya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya> , Hinduism's deity of the Sun (cf. > Hvar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvare_khshaeta> ). Subsequently, in > Vrihata samhita 60.19, Varahamihira > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira> directs that the > installation of the Surya <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya> images > should be made by the maga, as they were the first to worship the > divinity. Other texts[citation needed > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed> ] enjoin that > the images of Surya should be dressed like a northerner with the legs > covered, that he should wear a coat and a girdle. The early > representations of the divinity actually follow these injunctions, and > early iconography depicts the deity in central Asian dress, replete with > boots. In time, the alien features by either discarded or stories were > inventing to interpret the others. Nonetheless, the use of the word > Mihir in India to refer to Hinduism's Surya is regarded to represent > Sakaldwipiya influence, a derivation from Middle Iranian > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Iranian> myhr, that is itself a > post-4th century BCE development of another development of Avestan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan> Mithra (< Indo-Iranian *mitra > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra> ). But in Sanskrit, Mihir is > derived from the root mih (cf. MW) which is also the root of > Megha(cloud), and the chief meaning of this root is to cause rains. > Since Sun also causes rains, Mihir came to mean 'Sun'. Mitra (cognate of > Avestan Mithra ) was related to Sun, but only functionally, not > structurally. And the Shakdwipi Brahamins do in fact appear to have been > instrumental in the construction of Sun temples in different part of the > country,[4] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Upadhyay_1982_116-1\ > 24-3> to include Kashmir <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir> , > Kathiawad and Somnath <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath> in Gujarat > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat> , Dholpur in Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Hissar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hissar> in Jodhpur > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodhpur> , Bharatput and Khajuraho > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khajuraho> in Madhya pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhya_pradesh> , Konark > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konark> in Orissa > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa> and Deo, Punyark, Devkund and > Umga in Bihar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> . > > > [edit > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\ > ion=2> ] In epigraphy > The tale of the arrival of the Sakaldwipiyas appears to have been part > of living tradition for many centuries. The Govindpur > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govindpur> inscription of 1137-1138 > refers to a maga family of Gaya <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaya> , > Bihar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> that was celebrated for its > learning, Vedic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic> scholarship and > poetic faculty, and who descended from one of the original Samb > invitees.[5] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-Indica_330-4> The > Brahmins of the Godda <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godda> district in > Uttar Pradesh <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> likewise > trace their lineage to the original invitees. The maga-vyakti of > Krishnadas Mishra is an elaboration of the legend. The Bhojakas are also > mentioned in the inscriptions of Maurya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya> Ashoka > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka> and Kharavela > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharavela> . Kadamba > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadamba> dynasty (4th-6th century) > copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators of > Jain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> institutions. > > > [edit > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\ > ion=3> ] In contemporary sources > The A History of Brahmin Clans states that ´Sakadvipi > Brahmins have a love for traditional (Sanskrit) knowledge and their > Saṃskaras <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara> are like > those of the Maithil Brahamanas > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maithil_Br%C4%81hamana> , although > matrimonial and other customary relations with Maithil (or other > Brahmins) are not in vogue.[6] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Sharma_1988_280-5> > > Dorilal ´Sarma ´Srotiya described them as follows: > " they wear long Yajnopavita <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajnopavita> > at the age of 8 years, keep quiet while eating, like to keep beards like > sages, perform agnihotra, and charmed with mantras, and were called maga > because they read the Vedas in haphazard ways. " [6] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Sharma_1988_280-5> > > > [edit > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\ > ion=4> ] Internal structures > Apocryphally, the Sakaldwipiya centre was at Magadha > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha> . According to their tradition, > they were there allotted 72 principalities (purs),[7] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Sharma_1988_279.2C2\ > 81-6> and were identified by their purs rather than by their lineage > (gotras). In time they migrated in all directions, but retained their > affiliation with the original purs (as opposed to identifying themselves > with their lineage, their gotras), and are strict in their practice of > gotra and pur exogamy (unlike other Brahmins) and give it prime > importance in arranging marriages; endogamy within one of their 74 paras > (i.e. allas) is prohibited. > > There are altogether 13 ´Sakadvipi gotra > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra> s: Ka´syapa > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa> , Garga > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garga> , Para´sara > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashara> , Bhrigu > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhrigu> /Bhargava > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhargava> , Kauṇá¸inya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya> , Kausala, Bharadwaj, Vasu, > Suryadatta/Arkadatta, Nala, Bhavya Maá¹i and Mihrasu. > > The Suryadhwaja have 5 gotras: Surya, Soral, Lakhi, Binju and Malek > Jade. > > > [edit > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\ > ion=5> ] Distribution > Major Sakaldwipiya centers are in Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> in Western India and near Gaya > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaya> in Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> . > > The term 'Bhojaka' is popular in the western states while 'Sakadvipi' > and its numerous variations is typical for the north and east. The terms > 'Graham Vipra' and 'Acharya Brahmin' are common in West Bengal > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bengal> and Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> . One of the Sakaldwipiya > groups, the 'Suryadhwaja' Brahmins, are endemic to Northern India and is > the only Shakadwipiya group classified as Kashmiri Pandits > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmiri_Pandits> . > > The Bhojakas are historically associated with several Jain > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> temples in Gujarat and Rajasthan, > where they serve as priests and attendants.[8] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Cort_2001_.3F.3F.3F\ > -7> Some of the Shakdwipi Brahmins of Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> and Uttar pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_pradesh> are Ayurvedic > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurvedic> physicians, some are priests > in Rajput <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput> families, while yet > others are landholders.[9] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-Mitra_1962_615- 8> > > Surnames (Padavi or Aspada titles) in alphabetical order, with > their respective traditional areas are: > Surname Traditional " Root " Areas Bhatta > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatt> J & K > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%26K> , Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Bhatt > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatt> J & K > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%26K> , Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Upadhyay > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Upadhyay & action=edit & redlink=\ > 1> Jharkhand <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> ,Chattisgarh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattisgarh> Bhojak Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Maharastra > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharastra> Mi´sra > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishra> Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Jharkhand > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> , Madhya Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhya_Pradesh> , Uttar Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> PÄá¹haka > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathak> Jharkhand > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Mehrishi Kashmir > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir> , Uttar Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> , Delhi > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi> , Punjab > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28India%29> , Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> Surname Traditional > " Root " Areas PÄṇá¸ey <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandey> > [6] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note- Sharma_1988_280-5> > Jharkhand <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> , Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Uttar Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> Sharma > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharma> Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> Shukla > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukla> Uttar Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> ,Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Soral Delhi > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi> , Rajasthan > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> Dasguru|Indraguru Jharkhand > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> ,Bihar > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Vajpayee > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajpayee> Jharkhand > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> ,Uttar Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> Ojha > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojha> Jharkhand > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> ,Uttar Pradesh > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> > ================================== > > > , " vinayjhaa16 " > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his > generous > > response. > > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira> > > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in > Jyotisha > > at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source of this > > legend. > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic > > Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48 > > unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of > the > > former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to > > anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > like > > Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to > this > > anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like > > marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch- shalaakaa > and > > Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras. > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana > in > > ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two schools > > have been created by modern authors. > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > ==> > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > was > > a > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise > ; > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > Narapati's > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > eulogies > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest > > him > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > <== > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati > and > > the > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > > ==> > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > <== > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative > > argument > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously > > Tantra > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . > So > > I > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > ==> > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > > <== > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god > of > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give > > more > > > light about the line of argument: > > > Chandra > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf > > > > > > <Chandra% 20\ > \ > > \ > > > Hari/Aryabhata%20and%20Jain%20Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf> > > > > > > ==> > > > > Varah > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > even > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > gone > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > <== > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All > this > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " > - > > is > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the > name > > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > > ==> > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > <== > > > OK - Possible. > > > ==> > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > Kashmiri > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > <== > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol > > > worship, temple worship etc. > > > ==> > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > Vedic > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > colonialist > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted > to > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > > <== > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > > otherwise. > > > ==> > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > other > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > even > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > <== > > > Agree. > > > ==> > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > practised in India by anyone. > > > <== > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better > to > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > > ==> > > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > > <== > > > Agree. > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from > > that > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > > thirsty. > > > > > > Love and Hugs, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > , " vinayjhaa16 " > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > was > > a > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise > ; > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > Narapati's > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > eulogies > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest > > him > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > Varah > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > even > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > gone > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > Kashmiri > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > Vedic > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > colonialist > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted > to > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > other > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > even > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands : > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > ============= ================= ===================== > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > ==> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > <== > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the > 10th > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th > Century > > > AD) > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after > > referring > > > to > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - > firstly > > > the 7 > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi > > Yamala, > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric > > texts > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, > > Rakshokhnam, > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala > > etc] > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > > Jayacharya > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the > > long > > > list > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > > Yap, > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > > ancient > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka > hora, > > > Surya > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > > quotes to > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not > > > provide > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let > > us > > > go > > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known > > as > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > > settled > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well > > proved > > > by > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, > > and > > > also > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > father's > > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name > > that > > > ends > > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > > Sanskrit > > > > > dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who > > come > > > and > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > > Mihira > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of > Saravali > > > from > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati > > the > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > > Kalyana > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - > evidently > > a > > > not > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > > evidently > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as > evident > > > from > > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita > from > > > > Orissa. > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king > and > > a > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > > certainly > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was > never > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, > certainly > > > > it was > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never > supported > > > by > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > > Parisishta, > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is > > well > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic > Brahmins; > > > no > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to > > act > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there > is > > > scope > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > ====================================== > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > > Mahatantra=========================================The > available > > > text > > > > > on > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters > and > > > 160 > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem in > > the > > > > > head'. > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara > > (lord > > > > > Siva) > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra > > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams > > the > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra > > is > > > the > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to > > the > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > > attracting > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave > > their > > > > > native > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability > etc. > > > Yes, > > > > > it > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with > > gem > > > > > like > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > > branch > > > > > of > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of > > knowing > > > > > about > > > > > > the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala > > > Tantra > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the > > > > > available > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > > medicine > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) > > etc. > > > But > > > > > we > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra > > (Astrology) > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > > medicine > > > > > in > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > > plants > > > > > are > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some > > > secret > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric > culture. > > > Tantra > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have > been > > > the > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though > > in > > > the > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa > etc] > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > > KalaTantra, > > > > > we > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly > > with > > > > > Kala > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with > Kala > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher > of > > > all > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, > with > > > > > folded > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the > devotees > > > > > please > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the > same > > > style > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well > > from > > > lord > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra > > (Astrology) > > > as > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can > be > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > > conclusion. > > > > > As > > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another name > > for > > > > > this > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " by > > the > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > " Like > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a > cobra, > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra - > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because > ofthis > > > even > > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicates > > that > > > Kala > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. > But > > > that > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. > > Dattatreyagives > > > a > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra > atthe > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are > > mentioned,but > > > only > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in > theprinted > > > text. > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to > be > > > > > missing. > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya > Mahatantra > > > is an > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the > > question > > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn > > > from > > > > > lord > > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that > > could > > > be > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, > he > > > might > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be > > made > > > use > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > > " In > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are > > > present. > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and > in > > > many > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra > > > that > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra > etc) > > > 'in > > > > > the > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about > > medicine > > > > > (Kala > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > > Shadkarma > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This > > knowledge > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word > > Puranahere > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > > hereindicates > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called > Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > > Tantric > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So > thestatement > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > > (Agama) > > > > > and > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is > Vishnava > > > > > Tantra. > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach > > him > > > the > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is > beneficial > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted > > > state at > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was > > > very > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the > > pile. > > > The > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > > Puranas > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics > > and > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > > pain of > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge > is > > > > > becoming > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > > heritage of > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This > great > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who > > devotes > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for > davas, > > > first > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > > knowledge > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > > devotee of > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who > > does > > > not > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One > > > should > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed > > and > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > > " Astrology is > > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for > > special > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) > this > > > truth > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read > > horoscope, > > > or > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara > (Siva). > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in > the > > > form > > > > > of > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate > > > Guru > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric > tradition. > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe > > > concept > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > > astrology, > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in concept > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all > > > > > different > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and > > > existed > > > > > in > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as > > Rasi > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed > in > > a > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts > > > such > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > > othercivilization > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could > > prove > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent > in > > > the > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go > back > > > to > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could > > be > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > > Dattatreya - > > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > > medicine)which > > > > > is > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, > > puttingaside > > > the > > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the > > benefit > > > with > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, > > Vreta, > > > Day, > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious > > > muhoorta > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well > > for > > > the > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of > it > > > the > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use > > these > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this > advice > > > lord > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since those > > > slokas > > > > > are > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If > > anyone > > > is > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya > Mahatantra > > > to > > > > > know > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > > available > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). > The > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. > Siva > > > said: > > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > > humanbeings I > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " > Dwadesa > > > dala > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa > sankhayani > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya > > vedhe > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha > > > chandre > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase > > vicharayete > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we > > can > > > > > have > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the > numbers > > of > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In > each > > of > > > the > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > > planetary > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc > in > > > the > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects > > (Drishti) > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If > > > Vedha > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > > forJupiter > > > > > - > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, > for > > > Venus > > > > > - > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every > > > month " > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > > ismentioned > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and > RasiVedha > > > is > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for > KalaMrityu > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this > > sloka > > > was > > > > > a > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will > > explain.(1) > > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > > Chitra--------- > > > Why it > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down > > the > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in > each > > > > > square > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > Chaitra > > > > > = > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc > ? > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > > becalculated, > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 > > deg > > > > > away > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) > > > Mrityu > > > > > > Karaka Graha----------------------- Is Saturn > > > mentioned > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma riksha > > > janma > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn would > > > have > > > > > been > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > > Saturn > > > > > and > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, > > > then > > > > > what > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3) Riksha - > > > Nakshatra > > > > > > or sign------------------------------ The word > > > Riksha > > > > > has > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, > > Moon > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > > represents > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider > both > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? > How > > to > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary > context?(4) > > > Vedha > > > > > > and the related prediction-------------------------------- ---- > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it > issaid > > > that > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe > > > Vedha > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof > > > Vedha is > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha > > > Vedha > > > > > in > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while > > > > > predicting > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > > Gochara---------------------- This > Gochara-Vedha > > > system > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > > should be > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > > avoided > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology------------------------------- > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the > personwho > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here > > weencounter > > > a > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould > we > > > > > observe > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated > after > > > > > Sripati > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed > the > > > > > concept > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya > > Tantra? > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to > > findanswers > > > to > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of > > theastrology > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify > > > them > > > > > into > > > > > > several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and > > > allied > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics > (Epic > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - > Itis > > > the > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > > wholesecret > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of > > > Arsha > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological > texts. > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda > > > Hora, > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The > acharyas > > > in > > > > > this > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, > > > Sounaka > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > > thought](vii) > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > > Indianastrology > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in > > > this > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of > > course > > > > > there > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. > > But > > > > > books > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am > not > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a > single > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of > any > > of > > > the > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for > > > > > research! > > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and > > reveal > > > the > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge > on > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten, > > > > > unexplored > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgamaya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of > work > > > > > pending, > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower > > their > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are > truly > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our > > > search > > > > > for > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > > child's > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be > explored! > > > Let > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the > > all, > > > > > forthe > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of > > learning!Love,Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ====================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization , " Bhadraiah > > Mallampalli " > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of > interest. > > > That > > > > > is > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > > *everything* > > > > > its > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the > > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed > by > > > the > > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles > and > > > can be > > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents > > are > > > not > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted > > results > > > (we > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > > discard > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the > > unpublished > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is > > > stupid. > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity > > from > > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > > understand > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the > > total > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed > > (well, > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each > > veda > > > are > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > for > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out > of > > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > > completely > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim > of > > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dear Arjun ji, ==>if adi sankara has used a dead corpse to do parakaya pravesa it is not satvik right handed tantra for a pontiff. people shall shed inhibitions about branding tantra as a negative force.<== That is an excellent point! Love and regards,Sreenadh , "panditarjun2004" <panditarjun2004 wrote:>> dear sreenadhji> > while the history and roots of astronomers are disussed by more> history learnt people, i may endorse your views that tantras be it> right or left, satvik or tamasik all are vedic and have their roots> and origins from vedas. to brand some as anti vedic is improper. if> adi sankara has used a dead corpse to do parakaya pravesa it is not> satvik right handed tantra for a pontiff. people shall shed> inhibitions about branding tantra as a negative force. gods and> devatas, besides demons, know various tricks of both right and lef> hand tantra and have used it against evils, demons and enemies.> indra did cast spells and used tricks of left hand tantra against> sages too.> > in a similar thread earlier, we all concluded right or left, god or> evil all having the same force and it is for the natives how to> extract and use. it is like electricity having high voltage and it> is upto the native to convert it into illuminating the dark world or> to give shocks and kill.> > if one using astrology predicts the future, what about the sages and> gods who were trikalajnanis who without taking any help of astrology,> see the past, present and future. many such sages performed divine> miracles like shirdi saibaba unrelated to science even in the> recorded recent history and their clairvoyance and tantra jnana shall> not be undermined.> > by the way, we may remember the wonder boy boris from russia who last> year predicted catastrophic loss of human lives in both 2009 and> 2013. since 2009 has already begun, members may find any> astrological pointer for such massive loss of life either due to> earthquakes, tsunamis, nuke mishaps or wars.> > with best wishes and blessings> pandit arjun> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Vinay Jha ji,> > The link you provided was very interesting. Thanks. I have> pasted> > the contents of the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya> at the end of this> message> > for the easy reference of all.> > Ok. Now only I understood that you are referring to Saka-> Dwipeeya> > (From 'Saka' Island) People. Jambu Deepa was Asia - it is> believed.> > Which was Saka Dwipa? Arebian Continent?> > The statement -> > ==>> > The Sakaldwipiya Brahmin community> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin_communities> of India> identify> > themselves as having Iranian> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Iran> roots, and assert> that> > they inherit their by-name maga from a group of priests (cf. maga> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobed> ) who established themselves in> > India as the Maga-Dias or Maga-Brahmanas.> > <==> > Seems to point to the argument that 'Saka Dwipa = Iran". So in> > essence the argument is that, Mihira is a forginer who came to India> > from Iran, or at least one who took birth in a clan that came from> Iran> > and settled in India. Then the question arises - was his knowledge> also> > came with him or did he adobpted it from India itself?!! What is> your> > take on this? I think there would be numerous people who would> argue> > against this for sure - especially in the absence of literary> evidence> > which states that Mihira was a 'Saka dwipiya Brahmana' - or is there> > any?> > The following statement is also note worthy -> > ==>> > Of the pious representatives of 18 families Samba invited to> resettle in> > the city of Sambapura, eight were Mandagas, and their descendants> became> > Shudras <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudra> . The other 10 were> Maga> > Brahmins, who married Bhoja vamsa women and so their descendants> came to> > be known as Bhojakas.> > <==> > If the descendants of those Saka people who came to india> became> > Shudras (Low cast) as clearly said in the above statement as> indicated> > by the name "Dasa" (as in Mihira's father's name - Aditya Dasa),> then> > how those same descendents became Brahmans?! Either they are> Shudras or> > Brahmins - they cannot be both at the same time!> > The following statements are also noteworthy -> > ==>> > The Bhojakas are also mentioned in the inscriptions of Maurya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya> Ashoka> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka> and Kharavela> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharavela> . Kadamba> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadamba> dynasty (4th-6th century)> > copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators> of> > Jain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> institutions.> > The Bhojakas are historically associated with several Jain> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> temples in Gujarat and> Rajasthan,> > where they serve as priests and attendants.> >> > Kadamba <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadamba> dynasty (4th-6th> > century) copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as> > administrators of Jain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain>> > institutions.> >> > There are altogether 13 ´Sakadvipi gotra> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra> s: Ka´syapa> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa> , Garga> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garga> , Para´sara> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashara> , Bhrigu> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhrigu> /Bhargava> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhargava> , Kauṇá¸inya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya> , Kausala, Bharadwaj, Vasu,> > Suryadatta/Arkadatta, Nala, Bhavya Maá¹i and Mihrasu.> > <==> > If they are not Jains then how should they be associated wtih> Jain> > temples - I wonder! Please also note that the popular Jain sage> Garga> > is also included in the above list!!> > It seems that all these Iran-Shudra-Jain-Brahnama etc link will> > remain contraversial for long and won't be settled!! > > ==>> > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was> Vedic> > > Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48> > > unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library> of> > the> > > former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them> to> > > anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of> Tantric> > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra,> > like> > > Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates> to> > this> > > anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like> > > marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-> shalaakaa> > and> > > Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.> > <==> > It seems that you are equating the Dakshina Tantras with Vedic> and> > Vama Tantras with Anti-Vedic! This could be wrong. For example,> you> > state that -> > ==>> > > Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi).> > <==> > Kularnava Tantra is NOT Anti-Vedic; But instead quotes> extensively> > from Vedas. On the other hand there are several Dakshina Tantras> does> > not mention Vedas at all. This points to the fact that the above> > statement could be wrong.> > ==>> > > http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian> > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern> meaning> > > of Tropical.> > <==> > Yap, I have already posted that article in the group.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > ==================================> > Sakaldwipiya From Wikipedia, the free> encyclopedia> > Jump to: navigation> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#column-one> , search> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#searchInput>> > Sakaldwipiya Brahmins or Bhojaka Brahmins, is a class of Hindu> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism> priests and Ayurveda> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda> teachers (acharyas> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya> ),[1]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Sharma_1916_491-0>> > with concentrations in Western- and Northern India> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> .> >> > "Sakaldwipiya" is a tadbhav> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarati_language#Tadbhav> of> Sanskrit> > Shakadvipiya, an -iya adjective of Shakadvipa, one of the dvipa> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvipa> ("continents") of Hindu> mythology> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_mythology> . Spelling variants> > include Shakdvipi, Shakdwipi, Shakdweepi, Shakdvipiya, Shakdwipiya,> > Shakdweepiya, Shakadwipi, and Sakadwipi.[1]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Sharma_1916_491-0>> > with concentrations in Western- and Northern India> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India> .> >> > The Sakaldwipiyas are also known as Maga Brahmins (see origin myth> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Origin_myth> below).> Also> > known as Maga Brahmins are the Suryadhwaja Brahmins, who however> > consider themselves to be distinct from the Sakaldwipiya/Bhojaka> > Brahmins.> > Contents [hide]> > * 1 Origin myth> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Origin_myth>> > * 2 In epigraphy> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#In_epigraphy>> > * 3 In contemporary sources> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#In_contemporary_sources>> > * 4 Internal structures> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Internal_structures>> > * 5 Distribution> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Distribution>> > * 6 See also> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#See_also>> > * 7 Notes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Notes>> > * 8 References> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#References>> > * 9 Further reading> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#Further_reading>> >> >> > [edit> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\> > ion=1> ] Origin myth> > The Sakaldwipiya Brahmin community> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin_communities> of India> identify> > themselves as having Iranian> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Iran> roots, and assert> that> > they inherit their by-name maga from a group of priests (cf. maga> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobed> ) who established themselves in> > India as the Maga-Dias or Maga-Brahmanas.> >> > The doctrinal basis for that assertion is Bhavishya Purana> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana> 133, which may be> > summarized as follows:[2]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-Misra_1914_150-> 1>> > [3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-2>> > Krishna <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna> 's son Samba was> > afflicted with leprosy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leprosy> ,> which> > was cured after he worshiped Surya> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya>> > , Hinduism's god of the Sun. In response, he built a temple to> Surya on> > the banks of the Chandrabhaga> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenab_River> river, but no competent> > Brahmin could be found to take up the role of priest in the temple.> So> > Samba sought help of Gauramukha> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Gauramukha & action=edit & redlin\> > k=1> , the adviser of the yadu chief, Ugrasena> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugrasena> .Gauramukha responded with a> > suggestion that Samba go to Shakdvipa (see note on Mahabharata> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata> 6:11, below[a]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#endnote_anone> ) and> invite> > their priests to worship Surya. Further, asked Samba, "tell me, oh> > Brahmin, what are the antecedents of these worshipers of the Sun?"> To> > which Gauramukha replied... "The first of the Brahmins amidst the> > Shakhas was called 'Sujihva.' [...] He had a daughter of the name> > Nikshubha, who so enamored Surya that she was impregnated by him.> Thus> > she gave birth to Jarashabda who was the founding father of all the> > Maga-Acharya. They are distinguished by the sacred girdle called the> > Avyanga <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushti> that they wear around> > their waist." And so Samba called on Krishna to send him Garuda> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda> , on whose back he then flew> to> > Shakadwipa. He collected the Maga-Acharya, brought them back to> India> > and installed them as priests of his Surya temple.Of the pious> > representatives of 18 families Samba invited to resettle in the> city of> > Sambapura, eight were Mandagas, and their descendants became Shudras> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shudra> . The other 10 were Maga> Brahmins,> > who married Bhoja vamsa women and so their descendants came to be> known> > as Bhojakas.> > As such, the Sakaldwipiya are one of only two> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#endnote_bnone> Brahmin> > groups who are said to have originated outside India, even if about> half> > their clan names (gotra <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra> s) are> the> > same as those of other Brahmins.> >> > Whatever their original beliefs, by the time the Bhavishya Purana> 133> > was composed the Sakaldwipiyas were identified as devotees of Surya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya> , Hinduism's deity of the Sun> (cf.> > Hvar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvare_khshaeta> ). Subsequently,> in> > Vrihata samhita 60.19, Varahamihira> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira> directs that the> > installation of the Surya <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya>> images> > should be made by the maga, as they were the first to worship the> > divinity. Other texts[citation needed> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed> ] enjoin> that> > the images of Surya should be dressed like a northerner with the> legs> > covered, that he should wear a coat and a girdle. The early> > representations of the divinity actually follow these injunctions,> and> > early iconography depicts the deity in central Asian dress, replete> with> > boots. In time, the alien features by either discarded or stories> were> > inventing to interpret the others. Nonetheless, the use of the word> > Mihir in India to refer to Hinduism's Surya is regarded to represent> > Sakaldwipiya influence, a derivation from Middle Iranian> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Iranian> myhr, that is itself> a> > post-4th century BCE development of another development of Avestan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan> Mithra (< Indo-Iranian> *mitra> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra> ). But in Sanskrit, Mihir is> > derived from the root mih (cf. MW) which is also the root of> > Megha(cloud), and the chief meaning of this root is to cause rains.> > Since Sun also causes rains, Mihir came to mean 'Sun'. Mitra> (cognate of> > Avestan Mithra ) was related to Sun, but only functionally, not> > structurally. And the Shakdwipi Brahamins do in fact appear to have> been> > instrumental in the construction of Sun temples in different part> of the> > country,[4]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Upadhyay_1982_116-1\> > 24-3> to include Kashmir <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir> ,> > Kathiawad and Somnath <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somnath> in> Gujarat> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat> , Dholpur in Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Hissar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hissar> in Jodhpur> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodhpur> , Bharatput and Khajuraho> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khajuraho> in Madhya pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhya_pradesh> , Konark> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konark> in Orissa> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa> and Deo, Punyark, Devkund and> > Umga in Bihar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> .> >> >> > [edit> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\> > ion=2> ] In epigraphy> > The tale of the arrival of the Sakaldwipiyas appears to have been> part> > of living tradition for many centuries. The Govindpur> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govindpur> inscription of 1137-1138> > refers to a maga family of Gaya> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaya> ,> > Bihar <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> that was celebrated for> its> > learning, Vedic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic> scholarship> and> > poetic faculty, and who descended from one of the original Samb> > invitees.[5]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-Indica_330-4>> The> > Brahmins of the Godda <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godda>> district in> > Uttar Pradesh <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> likewise> > trace their lineage to the original invitees. The maga-vyakti of> > Krishnadas Mishra is an elaboration of the legend. The Bhojakas are> also> > mentioned in the inscriptions of Maurya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya> Ashoka> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka> and Kharavela> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharavela> . Kadamba> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadamba> dynasty (4th-6th century)> > copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators> of> > Jain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> institutions.> >> >> > [edit> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\> > ion=3> ] In contemporary sources> > The A History of Brahmin Clans states that ´Sakadvipi> > Brahmins have a love for traditional (Sanskrit) knowledge and their> > Saṃskaras <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara> are like> > those of the Maithil Brahamanas> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maithil_Br%C4%81hamana> , although> > matrimonial and other customary relations with Maithil (or other> > Brahmins) are not in vogue.[6]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Sharma_1988_280-5>> >> > Dorilal ´Sarma ´Srotiya described them as follows:> > "they wear long Yajnopavita> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajnopavita>> > at the age of 8 years, keep quiet while eating, like to keep beards> like> > sages, perform agnihotra, and charmed with mantras, and were called> maga> > because they read the Vedas in haphazard ways."[6]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Sharma_1988_280-5>> >> >> > [edit> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\> > ion=4> ] Internal structures> > Apocryphally, the Sakaldwipiya centre was at Magadha> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha> . According to their> tradition,> > they were there allotted 72 principalities (purs),[7]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Sharma_1988_279.2C2\> > 81-6> and were identified by their purs rather than by their> lineage> > (gotras). In time they migrated in all directions, but retained> their> > affiliation with the original purs (as opposed to identifying> themselves> > with their lineage, their gotras), and are strict in their practice> of> > gotra and pur exogamy (unlike other Brahmins) and give it prime> > importance in arranging marriages; endogamy within one of their 74> paras> > (i.e. allas) is prohibited.> >> > There are altogether 13 ´Sakadvipi gotra> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra> s: Ka´syapa> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyapa> , Garga> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garga> , Para´sara> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashara> , Bhrigu> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhrigu> /Bhargava> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhargava> , Kauṇá¸inya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaundinya> , Kausala, Bharadwaj, Vasu,> > Suryadatta/Arkadatta, Nala, Bhavya Maá¹i and Mihrasu.> >> > The Suryadhwaja have 5 gotras: Surya, Soral, Lakhi, Binju and Malek> > Jade.> >> >> > [edit> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Sakaldwipiya & action=edit & sect\> > ion=5> ] Distribution> > Major Sakaldwipiya centers are in Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> in Western India and near> Gaya> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaya> in Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> .> >> > The term 'Bhojaka' is popular in the western states> while 'Sakadvipi'> > and its numerous variations is typical for the north and east. The> terms> > 'Graham Vipra' and 'Acharya Brahmin' are common in West Bengal> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bengal> and Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> . One of the Sakaldwipiya> > groups, the 'Suryadhwaja' Brahmins, are endemic to Northern India> and is> > the only Shakadwipiya group classified as Kashmiri Pandits> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmiri_Pandits> .> >> > The Bhojakas are historically associated with several Jain> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain> temples in Gujarat and> Rajasthan,> > where they serve as priests and attendants.[8]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Cort_2001_.3F.3F.3F\> > -7> Some of the Shakdwipi Brahmins of Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> and Uttar pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_pradesh> are Ayurvedic> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurvedic> physicians, some are> priests> > in Rajput <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput> families, while yet> > others are landholders.[9]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-Mitra_1962_615-> 8>> >> > Surnames (Padavi or Aspada titles) in alphabetical order, with> > their respective traditional areas are:> > Surname Traditional "Root" Areas Bhatta> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatt> J & K> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%26K> , Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Bhatt> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhatt> J & K> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%26K> , Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Upadhyay> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?> title=Upadhyay & action=edit & redlink=\> > 1> Jharkhand <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> ,Chattisgarh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chattisgarh> Bhojak Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Maharastra> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharastra> Mi´sra> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishra> Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Jharkhand> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> , Madhya Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhya_Pradesh> , Uttar Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> PÄá¹haka> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathak> Jharkhand> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Mehrishi Kashmir> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir> , Uttar Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> , Delhi> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi> , Punjab> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_%28India%29> , Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> Surname> Traditional> > "Root" Areas PÄṇá¸ey <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandey>> > [6]> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya#cite_note-> Sharma_1988_280-5>> > Jharkhand <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> , Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> , Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> , Uttar Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> Sharma> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharma> Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> Shukla> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shukla> Uttar Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> ,Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Soral Delhi> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi> , Rajasthan> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan> Dasguru|Indraguru> Jharkhand> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> ,Bihar> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar> Vajpayee> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajpayee> Jharkhand> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> ,Uttar Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh> Ojha> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojha> Jharkhand> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand> ,Uttar Pradesh> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh>> > ==================================> >> >> > , "vinayjhaa16"> > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote:> > >> > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his> > generous> > > response.> > >> > > For Shakadvipis, see> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya>> > >> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira> > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira>> > >> > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the> first> > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis.> > >> > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in> > Jyotisha> > > at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source of> this> > > legend.> > >> > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was> Vedic> > > Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48> > > unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library> of> > the> > > former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them> to> > > anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of> Tantric> > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra,> > like> > > Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates> to> > this> > > anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like> > > marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-> shalaakaa> > and> > > Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.> > >> > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus> nirayana> > in> > > ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two> schools> > > have been created by modern authors.> > >> > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian> > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern> meaning> > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.> > >> > > -VJ> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > ==>> > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king.> Narapati> > was> > > a> > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the> treatise> > ;> > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when> > Narapati's> > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> > > eulogies> > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> suggest> > > him> > > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > > <==> > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about> Narapati> > and> > > the> > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book> Narapati> > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> > > > ==>> > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > > <==> > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative> > > argument> > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and> > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was> > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously> > > Tantra> > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric> astrology?".> > So> > > I> > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > ==>> > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > > > <==> > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme> god> > of> > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like> the> > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could> give> > > more> > > > light about the line of argument:> > > >> Chandra> > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf> > > >> > >> >> <Chandra%> 20\> > \> > > \> > > > Hari/Aryabhata%20and%20Jain%20Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf>> > > >> > > > ==>> > > > > Varah> > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship> him> > > even> > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had> > gone> > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > > <==> > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All> > this> > > > information is totally new to me. What about the> word "Kapitthala"> > -> > > is> > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the> > name> > > > "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> > > > ==>> > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This> title is> > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > > <==> > > > OK - Possible.> > > > ==>> > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> > > Kashmiri> > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were> Tantric> > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > > <==> > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics> adhering to> > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric> idol> > > > worship, temple worship etc.> > > > ==>> > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and> tropical> > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in> > Vedic> > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant> > colonialist> > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and> wanted> > to> > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E> > > > <==> > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs> speak> > > > otherwise.> > > > ==>> > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is> the> > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise,> sunset,> > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant> and> > > other> > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical> astrology> > > even> > > > > in the nirayana school.> > > > <==> > > > Agree.> > > > ==>> > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > > practised in India by anyone.> > > > <==> > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in> Atharvana> > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and> > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is> better> > to> > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> > > > ==>> > > > > If nirayana system is completely> > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the> West.> > > > <==> > > > Agree.> > > >> > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink> from> > > that> > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we> are> > > > thirsty. > > > >> > > > Love and Hugs,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > , "vinayjhaa16"> > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > > > >> > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king.> Narapati> > was> > > a> > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the> treatise> > ;> > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when> > Narapati's> > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> > > eulogies> > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> suggest> > > him> > > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > > >> > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > > >> > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > Varah> > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship> him> > > even> > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had> > gone> > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > > >> > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This> title is> > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > > >> > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> > > Kashmiri> > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were> Tantric> > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > > >> > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and> tropical> > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in> > Vedic> > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant> > colonialist> > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and> wanted> > to> > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school,> tropical> > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is> the> > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise,> sunset,> > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant> and> > > other> > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical> astrology> > > even> > > > > in the nirayana school.> > > > >> > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad> brands :> > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the> West.> > > > >> > > > > -VJ> > > > > ============= ================= =====================> > > > >> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh"> <sreesog@>> > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers> for> > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > <==> > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of> the> > 10th> > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati> Jayacharya".> > > > > >> > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana> > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th> > Century> > > > AD)> > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after> > > referring> > > > to> > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as -> > firstly> > > > the 7> > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi> > > Yamala,> > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the> Tantric> > > texts> > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam,> > > Rakshokhnam,> > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava> patala> > > etc]> > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> > > > Jayacharya> > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in> the> > > long> > > > list> > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder> struk??> > > > > > Yap,> > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > > > >> > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes> from> > > > ancient> > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of> Daksha> > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka> > hora,> > > > Surya> > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those> available> > > > quotes to> > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts> do not> > > > provide> > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not> accept or> > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know).> So let> > > us> > > > go> > > > > > by the datable and available texts.> > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora> (Known> > > as> > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or> Yavanas> > > > settled> > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was> well> > > proved> > > > by> > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a> Jain,> > > and> > > > also> > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his> > > > father's> > > > > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a> name> > > that> > > > ends> > > > > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as> per> > > > Sanskrit> > > > > > dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner> who> > > come> > > > and> > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa> and> > > > Mihira> > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of> > Saravali> > > > from> > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir,> Narapati> > > the> > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near> Ujjain.> > > > Kalyana> > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests -> > evidently> > > a> > > > not> > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric> follower -> > > > evidently> > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as> > evident> > > > from> > > > > > the quote I provided above.> > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita> > from> > > > > Orissa.> > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a> king> > and> > > a> > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > > > > >> > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > > > >> > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain> origin,> > > > certainly> > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was> > never> > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > > > >> > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not,> > certainly> > > > > it was> > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never> > supported> > > > by> > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva> > > > Parisishta,> > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate> proofs> > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta -> it is> > > well> > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic> > Brahmins;> > > > no> > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the> same. > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh"> <sreesog@>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any> takers for> > > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you> want to> > > act> > > > it.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that> there> > is> > > > scope> > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a> start. > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ======================================> > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > > > > Mahatantra=========================================The> > available> > > > text> > > > > > on> > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15> chapters> > and> > > > 160> > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani",> meaning "gem in> > > the> > > > > > head'.> > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord> Parameswara> > > (lord> > > > > > Siva)> > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala> Mantra> > > > > > (Medicine)> > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge> streams> > > the> > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala> Mantra> > > is> > > > the> > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine> related to> > > the> > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> > > > attracting> > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people> leave> > > their> > > > > > native> > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability> > etc.> > > > Yes,> > > > > > it> > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter> thousands of> > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along> with> > > gem> > > > > > like> > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is> the> > > > branch> > > > > > of> > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of> > > knowing> > > > > > about> > > > > > > the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two> (Kala> > > > Tantra> > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in> the> > > > > > available> > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to> use> > > > medicine> > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana,> Akarshana)> > > etc.> > > > But> > > > > > we> > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra> > > (Astrology)> > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use> of> > > > medicine> > > > > > in> > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of> medicinal> > > > plants> > > > > > are> > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served> some> > > > secret> > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric> > culture.> > > > Tantra> > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would> have> > been> > > > the> > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even> though> > > in> > > > the> > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa> > etc]> > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> > > > KalaTantra,> > > > > > we> > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that> dealsmainly> > > with> > > > > > Kala> > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals> with> > Kala> > > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > > > > > -"Approaching> > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the> wellwisher> > of> > > > all> > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is> Kailasa,humbly,> > with> > > > > > folded> > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the> > devotees> > > > > > please> > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the> > same> > > > style> > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as> well> > > from> > > > lord> > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra> > > (Astrology)> > > > as> > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only> because> > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text,> can> > be> > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this> > > > conclusion.> > > > > > As> > > > > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another> name> > > for> > > > > > this> > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the> head" by> > > the> > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha-> > > > "Like> > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a> > cobra,> > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like> agem)"> > > > > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to> KalaTantra -> > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because> > ofthis> > > > even> > > > > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya> Mahatantra,indicates> > > that> > > > Kala> > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the> text.> > But> > > > that> > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument.> > > Dattatreyagives> > > > a> > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra> > atthe> > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are> > > mentioned,but> > > > only> > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in> > theprinted> > > > text.> > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems> to> > be> > > > > > missing.> > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya> > Mahatantra> > > > is an> > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the> > > question> > > > > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to> learn> > > > from> > > > > > lord> > > > > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra)> that> > > could> > > > be> > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma> etc,> > he> > > > might> > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could> be> > > made> > > > use> > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > > > > "In> > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships> are> > > > present.> > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara,> and> > in> > > > many> > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala> Tantra> > > > that> > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra> > etc)> > > > 'in> > > > > > the> > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about> > > medicine> > > > > > (Kala> > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help> is> > > > Shadkarma> > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This> > > knowledge> > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc.> Dattatreya> > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct> method'.> > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word> > > Puranahere> > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> > > > hereindicates> > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called> > Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama.> Butfor> > > > Tantric> > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So> > thestatement> > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both> SivaTantra> > > > (Agama)> > > > > > and> > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is> > Vishnava> > > > > > Tantra.> > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the> request of> > > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and> teach> > > him> > > > the> > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is> > beneficial> > > > for> > > > > > the> > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in> acorrupted> > > > state at> > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi> it was> > > > very> > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from> the> > > pile.> > > > The> > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas> and> > > > Puranas> > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from> Tantrics> > > and> > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can> feel the> > > > pain of> > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret> knowledge> > is> > > > > > becoming> > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the> > > > heritage of> > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This> > great> > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who> > > devotes> > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for> > davas,> > > > first> > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret> > > > knowledge> > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the> true> > > > devotee of> > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons> who> > > does> > > > not> > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of> knowledge. One> > > > should> > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong> willed> > > and> > > > is> > > > > > a> > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> > > > "Astrology is> > > > > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for> > > special> > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century)> > this> > > > truth> > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read> > > horoscope,> > > > or> > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara> > (Siva).> > > > This> > > > > > is> > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva> in> > the> > > > form> > > > > > of> > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the> ultimate> > > > Guru> > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric> > tradition.> > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we> considerthe> > > > concept> > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools> of> > > > > > astrology,> > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord> Brahma> > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord> Siva> > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord> Skanda> > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord> Brahma> > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in> concept> > > > about> > > > > > the> > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these> are all> > > > > > different> > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated> and> > > > existed> > > > > > in> > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such> as> > > Rasi> > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got> intermixed> > in> > > a> > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic> concepts> > > > such> > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > > > > othercivilization> > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> > > > theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences> could> > > prove> > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or> not.> > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the> astrologicalcontent> > in> > > > the> > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus> go> > back> > > > to> > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines> could> > > be> > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> > > > Dattatreya -> > > > > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial> forthe> > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> > > > medicine)which> > > > > > is> > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you,> > > puttingaside> > > > the> > > > > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the> > > benefit> > > > with> > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra,> > > Vreta,> > > > Day,> > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an> auspicious> > > > muhoorta> > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits> well> > > for> > > > the> > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use> of> > it> > > > the> > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their> effect> > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to> use> > > these> > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships)" With this> > advice> > > > lord> > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since> those> > > > slokas> > > > > > are> > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If> > > anyone> > > > is> > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya> > Mahatantra> > > > to> > > > > > know> > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of> the> > > > available> > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra> (Astrology).> > The> > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject> discussed.> > Siva> > > > said:> > > > > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> > > > humanbeings I> > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen"> > Dwadesa> > > > dala> > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa> > sankhayani> > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi> likhyate> > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante> mrityukarakeSurya> > > vedhe> > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha> jeeve cha> > > > chandre> > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase> > > vicharayete> > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)"From the Rasichakra with 12> petals, we> > > can> > > > > > have> > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the> > numbers> > > of> > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In> > each> > > of> > > > the> > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current> > > > planetary> > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon> etc> > in> > > > the> > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects> > > (Drishti)> > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death> time. If> > > > Vedha> > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury -> happiness,> > > > forJupiter> > > > > > -> > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts> withwomen,> > for> > > > Venus> > > > > > -> > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done> every> > > > month"> > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha> > > > ismentioned> > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and> > RasiVedha> > > > is> > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for> > KalaMrityu> > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But> this> > > sloka> > > > was> > > > > > a> > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will> > > explain.(1)> > > > > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > > > > Chitra---------> > > > Why it> > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite> down> > > the> > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra> in> > each> > > > > > square> > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that -> > > > Chaitra> > > > > > => > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha> (Taurus) etc> > ?> > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > > > > > becalculated,> > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if> thepoint 180> > > deg> > > > > > away> > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe> like?(2)> > > > Mrityu> > > > > > > Karaka Graha----------------------- Is> Saturn> > > > mentioned> > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma> riksha> > > > janma> > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare", directlymentioning Saturn> would> > > > have> > > > > > been> > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly> mentioning> > > > Saturn> > > > > > and> > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of> death) ?> > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should> beconsidered,> > > > then> > > > > > what> > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3)> Riksha -> > > > Nakshatra> > > > > > > or sign------------------------------ The> word> > > > Riksha> > > > > > has> > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma> Riksha> > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna> sign,> > > Moon> > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word> Riksha> > > > > > represents> > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider> > both> > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime> determination?> > How> > > to> > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary> > context?(4)> > > > Vedha> > > > > > > and the related prediction--------------------------------> ----> > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it> > issaid> > > > that> > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory> tothe> > > > Vedha> > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many> typesof> > > > Vedha is> > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha> andGraha> > > > Vedha> > > > > > in> > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved> while> > > > > > predicting> > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > > > > Gochara---------------------- This> > Gochara-Vedha> > > > system> > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase> mase> > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that> Transit> > > > should be> > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why> he> > > > avoided> > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu> and> > > > Ketu?(6)> > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology-------------------------------> > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the> > personwho> > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here> > > weencounter> > > > a> > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well!> Whatshould> > we> > > > > > observe> > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated> > after> > > > > > Sripati> > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati> borrowed> > the> > > > > > concept> > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya> > > Tantra?> > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to> > > findanswers> > > > to> > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of> > > theastrology> > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we> canclassify> > > > them> > > > > > into> > > > > > > several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati> period> > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas> and> > > > allied> > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics> > (Epic> > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> > > > Astrology)(v)> > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) -> > Itis> > > > the> > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> > > > wholesecret> > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us> Astrology of> > > > Arsha> > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological> > texts.> > > > This> > > > > > is> > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with> Skanda> > > > Hora,> > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The> > acharyas> > > > in> > > > > > this> > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta,> Kousika,> > > > Sounaka> > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'.> (Arsha> > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> > > > thought](vii)> > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in> variousancient> > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> > > > Indianastrology> > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc.> Theacharyas in> > > > this> > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of> > > course> > > > > > there> > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and> Parasara.> > > But> > > > > > books> > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I> am> > not> > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a> > single> > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths> of> > any> > > of> > > > the> > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available> for> > > > > > research!> > > > > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward> and> > > reveal> > > > the> > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient> knowledge> > on> > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half> forgotten,> > > > > > unexplored> > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > > > > "TamasomaJyotirgamaya...". Yes, there is a large amount of> > work> > > > > > pending,> > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these> knowledge is> > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to> shower> > > their> > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are> > truly> > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin> our> > > > search> > > > > > for> > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It> is> > > > child's> > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be> > explored!> > > > Let> > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before> the> > > all,> > > > > > forthe> > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of> > > learning!Love,Sreenadh> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ======================================> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > hinducivilization , "Bhadraiah> > > Mallampalli"> > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of> > interest.> > > > That> > > > > > is> > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> > > > *everything*> > > > > > its> > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your> reply.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it> is the> > > > > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> > > > mathematicians. A> > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as> claimed> > by> > > > the> > > > > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such> articles> > and> > > > can be> > > > > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific> documents> > > are> > > > not> > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted> > > results> > > > (we> > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names.> To> > > > discard> > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the> > > unpublished> > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers> (veda) is> > > > stupid.> > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of> relativity> > > from> > > > > > > > Newton's works.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't> > > > understand> > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention> the> > > total> > > > > > Vedic> > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally> existed> > > (well,> > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of> each> > > veda> > > > are> > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing> veda> > > > > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything> in it.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any> takers> > for> > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy> out> > of> > > > > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > > > > > inconceivable> > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some> universal> > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted> > > > completely> > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with> claim> > of> > > > > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 " > if adi sankara has used a dead corpse to do parakaya pravesa it is not > satvik right handed tantra for a pontiff. people shall shed > inhibitions about branding tantra as a negative force. " Regarding Adi Sankara doing parakaya pravesa, we should remember he was a sanyasi and is therefore technically outside the social fold. On top of it he was a mukta. Therefore the notion of " satvic " does not apply. Sanyasi does not have restrictions on matters of sadhana - intoxication or anything. The question about certain practices in Tantra is usually seen in the context of " satvic-tamasic " or " good-bad " , while it is not really so. The point is more about social viability of a practice than anything else. For this reason, whatever practices are not socially viable, are prescribed in seclusion. This includes panca makaras. And some of the vamacara practices are not even to be done in seclusion but are allowed only for a person outside the social fold. Therefore we should not sound as if it can be pursued by the common man - it cannot be. It requires a separate life style, training, temperament. Common man's worship should be directed with the goals of ruju vartana and daiva cintana, and not siddhis. While saying " tantra is meant for grhasthas " , and when we talk of great siddhas and tantrics, and we often forget that many of them were outside the fold in one sense or the other. The other part of confusion about Tantra is because of not separating kshudra from vamacara. Kshudra is different from vamacara and one should separate them. While vamacara is a moksha marga when pursued properly, kshudra is purely about siddhis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, That was a beautiful mail - well said! Love and regards, Sreenadh , " shankarabharadwaj " <shankarabharadwaj wrote: > > " > if adi sankara has used a dead corpse to do parakaya pravesa it is not > > satvik right handed tantra for a pontiff. people shall shed > > inhibitions about branding tantra as a negative force. " > > Regarding Adi Sankara doing parakaya pravesa, we should remember he > was a sanyasi and is therefore technically outside the social fold. On > top of it he was a mukta. Therefore the notion of " satvic " does not > apply. Sanyasi does not have restrictions on matters of sadhana - > intoxication or anything. > > The question about certain practices in Tantra is usually seen in the > context of " satvic-tamasic " or " good-bad " , while it is not really so. > The point is more about social viability of a practice than anything > else. For this reason, whatever practices are not socially viable, are > prescribed in seclusion. This includes panca makaras. And some of the > vamacara practices are not even to be done in seclusion but are > allowed only for a person outside the social fold. > > Therefore we should not sound as if it can be pursued by the common > man - it cannot be. It requires a separate life style, training, > temperament. Common man's worship should be directed with the goals of > ruju vartana and daiva cintana, and not siddhis. > > While saying " tantra is meant for grhasthas " , and when we talk of > great siddhas and tantrics, and we often forget that many of them were > outside the fold in one sense or the other. > > The other part of confusion about Tantra is because of not separating > kshudra from vamacara. Kshudra is different from vamacara and one > should separate them. While vamacara is a moksha marga when pursued > properly, kshudra is purely about siddhis. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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