Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji,As I said, there is not really an agreement or disagreement. Because to agree or disagree we need to understand each other's stand, substantiate our stand we need to enter a formal conversation - about both the texts and the methods, what forms the basis for what, how the sastra itself evolved, in what sequence the different practices, methods, philosophies and world views evolved and what not, and then refute/agree/disagree. It is quite a long process I have no problem whatsoever, entering any enriching conversation, especially when it is an area of my interest. "You seem to stand for the second and me for the first. As a sub-division of the second type of argument, about the all the equalities (your seem to hide it with the words 'related' cleverly) you are trying to create/argue- about spring from an effort to state that - "Yes I have used the word "related" cleverly, I did not want to use any loaded words since the mail was not inteded to explain those words but to briefly clarify my post. Regarding the connection, we should first define what Tantra was initially, what it is today, how it evolved. We should also define how Tantra was seen, by practitioners. If you remember another post on "Antiquity of Tantra" on the HC, it is partly clear what I mean. Tantra initially has been the "practitioner's manual" more than anything. Men learned in Dhanurvidya are the best to speak on the relation between Tantrika and Vaidika. Most of the astra vidyas mentioned in Vedic/Puranic lore, are not "defined" in those texts but in Tantra. This is because they see Tantra as the practitioner's manual for mantra/astra vidyas. They do not call themselves "tantrics" just because the Vidyas they practice come from Tantra. For that matter, the seers of those vidyas have also been Tantrikas as well as non-Tantrikas. They compiled those vidyas as a separate text called Tantra - because they are for the specialist practitioner. It applies to other mantra vidyas too, but astra is an easier context to explain. Even today, Vaidikas see Tantra as the "text of vidyas" to a good extent. From being the "text of vidyas", Tantra did grow into an ocean in itself - like any other sastra. Philosophies shaped over the different Tantric methods, and even grew into darsanas. If you look at the old texts which form the basis for Tantra, such as Damaras and Yamalas, this is evident. " For example, the total Mantrika (Mantravada) /Sorcery/ Tantric Mantra system is based on 8 or more fundamental base BELIEFS (I will try to list them in another mail); except the belief in the 'power of words', we can't see any similarity to for this system with any Vedic tradition. But even the 'power of words' concept was not of vedic alone; 'Power of words' was a concept that was present with every tradition, almost every ancient system, every religion and culture. Even in it there is nothing fundamentally vedic is present. If so, what is 'Vedic' there at all in the 'Mantrika' system?! "The point is not about the "belief in power of word". It is about Mantra as a science. The relevant subjects when we speak of Mantra are: Mantra Yoga, Mantra Sastra and Mantra Vidyas. Even here, the practitioner's and the scientist/seer's perspectives differ. Mantra Vidya is the tool, Mantra Yoga is the method-philosophy, Mantra Sastra is the basis for that knowledge. The question is whether the science itself is common - irrespective of whether the technology differs. " 1) I will prepare a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada) 2) You prepare a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra (or application of Veda Mantras)"Well yes, let us do that. I will post a couple of articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra that I have compiled recently, and then follow up with the "Vedic" view of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, ==>Regarding the connection, we should first define what Tantra was initially, what it is today, how it evolved. We should also define how Tantra was seen, by practitioners. If you remember another post on "Antiquity of Tantra" on the HC, it is partly clear what I mean. Tantra initially has been the "practitioner's manual" more than anything.<== * Well, I was yet to read that message "Antiquity of Tantra" on HC; so I searched that group with those words, and combined and forwarded the only messages from you on that subject the search returned, to this group. * //Tantra initially has been the "practitioner's manual" more than anything.// I clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective stands. ==>> " 1) I will prepare a list of core> beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)> 2) You prepare a list of core beliefs> used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra (or application of Veda Mantras)"> > Well yes, let us do that. I will post a couple of articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra that I have compiled recently, and then follow up with the "Vedic" view of it.<== I said I WILL POST "a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)". But now you have stated and started - YOU "will post a couple of articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra "!!! You took my Tantra and Mantra away from me! Any way I will post my brief list (No! Not at all similar to the looooooooooooog and extensive lists/articles/docuements you post) on the base beliefs present in MantraVada/Mantrika [A branch of Tantric system] in another mail. Let me give a day or so - so that I can prepare it. Nothing is ready made for me - need to sit and prepare today night. I said - //YOU prepare a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra// But you cleverly postponded it with the statement - " and then follow up with the "Vedic" view of it// It is not right! . You took away my Tantra (Tantric Mantra Sastra) and now post ponded the Vedic (Vedic Mantra Sastra). Any way, good to see that, good knowledge sharing is happening in the group. Love and Hugs,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > As I said, there is not really an agreement or disagreement. Because to agree or disagree we need to understand each other's stand, > substantiate our stand we need to enter a formal conversation - about both the texts and the methods, what forms the basis for what, how the sastra itself evolved, in what sequence the different practices, methods, philosophies and world views evolved and what not, and then refute/agree/disagree. It is quite a long process I have no problem whatsoever, entering any enriching conversation, especially when it is an area of my interest. > > "You seem to stand for the second and me for the first. As a sub-division> of the second type of argument, about the all the equalities (your seem to hide> it with the words 'related' cleverly) you are trying to create/argue- about> spring from an effort to state that - "> > Yes I have used the word "related" cleverly, I did not want to use any loaded words since the mail was not inteded to explain those words but to briefly clarify my post. > > Regarding the connection, we should first define what Tantra was initially, what it is today, how it evolved. We should also define how Tantra was seen, by practitioners. If you remember another post on "Antiquity of Tantra" on the HC, it is partly clear what I mean. Tantra initially has been the "practitioner's manual" more than anything. Men learned in Dhanurvidya are the best to speak on the relation between Tantrika and Vaidika. Most of the astra vidyas mentioned in Vedic/Puranic lore, are not "defined" in those texts but in Tantra. This is because they see Tantra as the practitioner's manual for mantra/astra vidyas. They do not call themselves "tantrics" just because the Vidyas they practice come from Tantra. For that matter, the seers of those vidyas have also been Tantrikas as well as non-Tantrikas. They compiled those vidyas as a separate text called Tantra - because they are for the specialist practitioner. It applies to other mantra vidyas too,> but astra is an easier context to explain. Even today, Vaidikas see Tantra as the "text of vidyas" to a good extent. > > From being the "text of vidyas", Tantra did grow into an ocean in itself - like any other sastra. Philosophies shaped over the different Tantric methods, and even grew into darsanas. If you look at the old texts which form the basis for Tantra, such as Damaras and Yamalas, this is evident. > > " For example, the total Mantrika (Mantravada) /Sorcery/ Tantric Mantra> system is based on 8 or more fundamental base BELIEFS (I will try to list them> in another mail); except the belief in the 'power of words', we can't see any> similarity to for this system with any Vedic tradition. But even the> 'power of words' concept was not of vedic alone; 'Power of words' was a concept> that was present with every tradition, almost every ancient system, every> religion and culture. Even in it there is nothing fundamentally vedic is> present. If so, what is 'Vedic' there at all in the 'Mantrika' system?!> "> > The point is not about the "belief in power of word". It is about Mantra as a science. The relevant subjects when we speak of Mantra are: Mantra Yoga, Mantra Sastra and Mantra Vidyas. Even here, the practitioner's and the scientist/seer's perspectives differ. Mantra Vidya is the tool, Mantra Yoga is the method-philosophy, Mantra Sastra is the basis for that knowledge. The question is whether the science itself is common - irrespective of whether the technology differs. > > " 1) I will prepare a list of core> beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)> 2) You prepare a list of core beliefs> used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra (or application of Veda Mantras)"> > Well yes, let us do that. I will post a couple of articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra that I have compiled recently, and then follow up with the "Vedic" view of it.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji, " * //Tantra initially has been the " practitioner' s manual " more than anything.// I clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective stands. " Well that is not how I would want a debate to happen In the survey of domain, I would not prefer to search for substantiating points but look at what the information itself has to say - it does not have to support my view, it is my view that should be shaped around the information. Yes initially we try to exchange our views and start refuting, but it is not view that matters finally: the total picture should emerge as a result of conversation. What you asked for, is something I need to prepare too. But the articles I posted will more or less convey it covering some good ground, that is the reason I posted those. So far whatever Mantra Sastra I have learned does not have any clear demarcation between Vaidika and Tantrika, and for this reason I need to do some homework on whether such demarcation exists and if so what is it. I will do it and post you - without postponement Happy debate Shankar ________________________________ Sreenadh <sreesog Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:13:32 PM Re: Tantra-Veda thread Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, ==> Regarding the connection, we should first define what Tantra was initially, what it is today, how it evolved. We should also define how Tantra was seen, by practitioners. If you remember another post on " Antiquity of Tantra " on the HC, it is partly clear what I mean. Tantra initially has been the " practitioner' s manual " more than anything. <== * Well, I was yet to read that message " Antiquity of Tantra " on HC; so I searched that group with those words, and combined and forwarded the only messages from you on that subject the search returned, to this group. * //Tantra initially has been the " practitioner' s manual " more than anything.// I clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective stands. ==> > " 1) I will prepare a list of core > beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada) > 2) You prepare a list of core beliefs > used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra (or application of Veda Mantras) " > > Well yes, let us do that. I will post a couple of articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra that I have compiled recently, and then follow up with the " Vedic " view of it. <== I said I WILL POST " a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada) " . But now you have stated and started - YOU " will post a couple of articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra " !!! You took my Tantra and Mantra away from me! Any way I will post my brief list (No! Not at all similar to the looooooooooooog and extensive lists/articles/ docuements you post) on the base beliefs present in MantraVada/Mantrika [A branch of Tantric system] in another mail. Let me give a day or so - so that I can prepare it. Nothing is ready made for me - need to sit and prepare today night. I said - //YOU prepare a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra// But you cleverly postponded it with the statement - " and then follow up with the " Vedic " view of it// It is not right! . You took away my Tantra (Tantric Mantra Sastra) and now post ponded the Vedic (Vedic Mantra Sastra). Any way, good to see that, good knowledge sharing is happening in the group. Love and Hugs, Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji,==>I would not prefer to search for substantiating points but look at what the information itself has to say - it does not have to support my view, it is my view that should be shaped around the information. Yes initially we try to exchange our views and start refuting, but it is not view that matters finally: the total picture should emerge as a result of conversation.<== Well said! I agree. ==>> What you asked for, is something I need to prepare too. But the articles I posted will more or less convey it covering some good ground, that is the reason I posted those. So far whatever Mantra Sastra I have learned does not have any clear demarcation between Vaidika and Tantrika, and for this reason I need to do some homework on whether such demarcation exists and if so what is it. I will do it and post you - without postponement <== Agree. Again well said! //> Happy debate// Yes, let us learn together! Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > "* //Tantra> initially has been the "practitioner' s manual" more than anything.// I> clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this> disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the> subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective> stands. "> > Well that is not how I would want a debate to happen In the survey of domain, I would not prefer to search for substantiating points but look at what the information itself has to say - it does not have to support my view, it is my view that should be shaped around the information. Yes initially we try to exchange our views and start refuting, but it is not view that matters finally: the total picture should emerge as a result of conversation. > > What you asked for, is something I need to prepare too. But the articles I posted will more or less convey it covering some good ground, that is the reason I posted those. So far whatever Mantra Sastra I have learned does not have any clear demarcation between Vaidika and Tantrika, and for this reason I need to do some homework on whether such demarcation exists and if so what is it. I will do it and post you - without postponement > > Happy debate> > Shankar> > > > ________________________________> Sreenadh sreesog > Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:13:32 PM> Re: Tantra-Veda thread> > > Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, > > ==>> Regarding the connection, we should first define what Tantra was> initially, what it is today, how it evolved. We should also define how> Tantra was seen, by practitioners. If you remember another post on> "Antiquity of Tantra" on the HC, it is partly clear what I mean. Tantra> initially has been the "practitioner' s manual" more than anything.> <==> * Well, I was yet to read that message "Antiquity of Tantra" on HC; so I searched that group with those words, and combined and forwarded the only messages from you on that subject the search returned, to this group. > * //Tantra> initially has been the "practitioner' s manual" more than anything.// I clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective stands. > ==>> > " 1) I will prepare a list of core> > beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)> > 2) You prepare a list of core beliefs> > used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra (or application of Veda Mantras)"> > > >> Well yes, let us do that. I will post a couple of articles on Mantra> Vidyas and Mantra Sastra that I have compiled recently, and then follow> up with the "Vedic" view of it.> <==> I said I WILL POST "a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)". But now you have stated and started - YOU "will post a couple of articles on Mantra> Vidyas and Mantra Sastra "!!! You took my Tantra and Mantra away from me! Any way I will post my brief list (No! Not at all similar to the looooooooooooog and extensive lists/articles/ docuements you post) on the base beliefs present in MantraVada/Mantrika [A branch of Tantric system] in another mail. Let me give a day or so - so that I can prepare it. Nothing is ready made for me - need to sit and prepare today night. > I said - //YOU prepare a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra// But you cleverly postponded it with the statement - " and then follow> up with the "Vedic" view of it// > It is not right! . You took away my Tantra (Tantric Mantra Sastra) and now post ponded the Vedic (Vedic Mantra Sastra). > Any way, good to see that, good knowledge sharing is happening in the group. > Love and Hugs,> Sreenadh> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Here I start with my introduction, list of beliefs etc. Love and regards,Sreenadh========================================== Mantravada (Application of Mantra) - Written by Sreenadh OG (sreesog) Definition of Mantravada: It is the application of Mantras for Shadkarma (6 acts) viz. Santi, Vasya, Stamphana, Dveshana, Ucchadana and Marana. Mantravada has got two major branches viz. Sanmantravada (Good application of Mantras), and Durmantravada (Bad application of Mantras). Introducation Let us approach this subject of Mantravada (application of Mantras), in a systematic manner. It is said that – Vidhivat padhita sastram sarvartha sadhaka loke Evam saphalam mantram phavateehi vidhipoorvakam padhitam [if learned systematically every branch of knowledge gives us all the prosperity we need, and is beneficial. Similarly the knowledge of Manta is also beneficial, if learned systematically, as per ancient advice] Therefore let us try to understand this ancient system of knowledge systematically. Na artha viheena mantrasyocharanam phalati Bhasmati vahni viheene na prakshiptam havir jwalati (Varivasya rahasyam) [if mantras are recited without understanding the meaning, it is not beneficial. If there is no fire, and if we are submitting ghee in ash, it is not going to burn. (Meaning is the fire within, which burns the Mantra poured into it, and converts it to power and purity)] Not only the meaning of Mantras are important, but also the meaning of the Mantravada system itself. We should better try to understand the pillars on which this total system itself stands. To understand things systematically we need a guru – but the ultimate guru is none but Siva within. Ya siva sarva bhootanameeswara svata eva tu Esana sarva vidyanam sa evadi gurur budhaH (Soota samhita) [What ever ultimate energetic force is behind everything, that Siva, the supreme, is the first teacher for all knowledge] Suddha sphadika sankasam suddha vidya pradayakam Suddham poornam chidanandam sadasivamaham sraye (Soota samhita) [i submit myself to that supreme divinity within, to Sada-Siva within, who gives pure knowledge, pure and radiant like a glass crystal (providing me with similar knowledge from within; to enlighten me and shine from within)] Depending on Siva, submitting ourselves to divine, let us systematically approach this ancient branch of knowledge called Mantravada (the study and application of Mantras). Foundation for critical study The study and application of Mantras for the benefit of the society is not alien to the numerous connected knowledge branches prevailing in the society, as well as not alien to the base beliefs present in the society. Some of the fundamental beliefs that form the foundation to the total system of Mantravada are given below – 1) Belief in Mantras, in the power of words. 2) Belief in the concept of similarity and transmission 3) Belief in Ayurveda 4) Belief in Astrology 5) Belief in supernatural powers 6) Belief in Tantric acts and its power 7) Belief in the theory of Karma 8) Belief in rebirth 9) Belief in the existence of multiple deities 10) Belief in the ability of dreams to indicate the future 11) Belief in Time 12) Belief in the ultimate state and connected philosophies a. Dvaita [siva-Sakti] b. Monotheism [Tripura Sundari, Akhora etc] c. Advaita [Everything Siva; Saivadvaita] Take any text on Mantravada (application of Mantra) and try to understand any selected quote. We could identify one or the other belief from the above list reflected in the quote. If these base `beliefs' are removed, then no Mantravada will remain! These are some of the beliefs that are fundamental to Indian society and that is why they form the base on which the system of Mantravada is placed. Understanding these basic beliefs in detail is essential for a systematic study of the system of Mantravada – this is a fundamental truth anyone critically approaching the system of Mantravada should be aware of. How old is this system? Both the Vedic and Tantric (Nigama and Agama) systems were prevalent and present in India from the period of Vedas period itself, or almost certainly prior to that itself. The following points should be noted – Both the Vedic as well as Tantric people observed animal sacrifice (Bali: killing of animals for the worship of god). The only difference is that while Vedic people killed Cow, horse etc for Bali, the Tantric people killed many other animals and gave importance to many other cruel rituals as well. In Vedas and Upanishads the efforts to remove such cruel rituals are visible. During the Upanishad period, from the purified Vedic religion, Bali (animal sacrifice) was discarded – search of the ultimate truth within and outside became important. But even during that period the common mass believed, followed and applied the Tantric system containing animal sacrifice, superstitions, pure knowledge and much more. Tantra was the most popular knowledge branch among the common mass, Veda was of interest only to an elite few. Is there any proof to argue that Tantric knowledge branch existed even during the Vedic period? Yes, there is. One such reference is quoted below. While referring to Moon and Amavasi, Brihadaranyopanishad states – Pranabhritasya pranam na vischindyatapi Krikalasyetasya eva devataya apachitayai (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad) [Do not destroy the breath of the breathing (Do not kill anything). For the worship of any god don't even kill a chameleon] Who were these people who killed and sacrificed chameleon in the day of Amavasi to the gods?! It cannot be the Vedic people. They only sacrificed clean and big animals life Cow, Horse etc for their revered and respected high class gods. Who ever it is, who sacrificed chameleon etc must be people who worshiped cruel deities, did cruel acts including animal sacrifices and followed a different system. This must be Tantric people. In numerous Tantric texts on Mantravada we find the act of sacrificing chameleon for various Shadkarma acts. In many Mantravada texts that deals with Shadkarma, the sacrifice of chameleon and various other animals are mentioned. An example quote would be the quotes such as - Vama padam vama hastam krikalasyasya poorvaval Sangrahya…… (from Kakshaputa of Nagarjuna) [Cut the left leg and left hand of the chameleon and …….] So the conclusion that we arrive at is that – to be the least, from the period of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad itself, we have the clear proof for the existence of Mantravada and Tantric worship. If it was that popular among the masses at that time, then certainly it existed and has history equal to the Vedic past itself. If we accept the Pasupati, mother goddess proofs etc naturally as part of the Tantric system, then we would even have to accept that the Tantric religion of common people with its esoteric gods such as Siva, Sarasvati and Sakti, and with its numerous beliefs and superstitions, was present extensively throughout India possibly prior to the Vedic period itself. - 0 - ========================================== , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > "* //Tantra> initially has been the "practitioner' s manual" more than anything.// I> clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this> disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the> subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective> stands. "> > Well that is not how I would want a debate to happen In the survey of domain, I would not prefer to search for substantiating points but look at what the information itself has to say - it does not have to support my view, it is my view that should be shaped around the information. Yes initially we try to exchange our views and start refuting, but it is not view that matters finally: the total picture should emerge as a result of conversation. > > What you asked for, is something I need to prepare too. But the articles I posted will more or less convey it covering some good ground, that is the reason I posted those. So far whatever Mantra Sastra I have learned does not have any clear demarcation between Vaidika and Tantrika, and for this reason I need to do some homework on whether such demarcation exists and if so what is it. I will do it and post you - without postponement > > Happy debate> > Shankar> > > > ________________________________> Sreenadh sreesog > Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:13:32 PM> Re: Tantra-Veda thread> > > Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, > > ==>> Regarding the connection, we should first define what Tantra was> initially, what it is today, how it evolved. We should also define how> Tantra was seen, by practitioners. If you remember another post on> "Antiquity of Tantra" on the HC, it is partly clear what I mean. Tantra> initially has been the "practitioner' s manual" more than anything.> <==> * Well, I was yet to read that message "Antiquity of Tantra" on HC; so I searched that group with those words, and combined and forwarded the only messages from you on that subject the search returned, to this group. > * //Tantra> initially has been the "practitioner' s manual" more than anything.// I clearly disagree with this statement. But after all, it is this disagreement that prompts us to dive deep and do an analysis of the subject in detail, and find substantiating points for our respective stands. > ==>> > " 1) I will prepare a list of core> > beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)> > 2) You prepare a list of core beliefs> > used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra (or application of Veda Mantras)"> > > >> Well yes, let us do that. I will post a couple of articles on Mantra> Vidyas and Mantra Sastra that I have compiled recently, and then follow> up with the "Vedic" view of it.> <==> I said I WILL POST "a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Tantric Mantra Sastra (or better Mantra Vada)". But now you have stated and started - YOU "will post a couple of articles on Mantra> Vidyas and Mantra Sastra "!!! You took my Tantra and Mantra away from me! Any way I will post my brief list (No! Not at all similar to the looooooooooooog and extensive lists/articles/ docuements you post) on the base beliefs present in MantraVada/Mantrika [A branch of Tantric system] in another mail. Let me give a day or so - so that I can prepare it. Nothing is ready made for me - need to sit and prepare today night. > I said - //YOU prepare a list of core beliefs used/can-be- seen in Vedic Mantra Sastra// But you cleverly postponded it with the statement - " and then follow> up with the "Vedic" view of it// > It is not right! . You took away my Tantra (Tantric Mantra Sastra) and now post ponded the Vedic (Vedic Mantra Sastra). > Any way, good to see that, good knowledge sharing is happening in the group. > Love and Hugs,> Sreenadh> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji,Appreciated. I will wait till you are done without refuting, because that will break the flow and take us off to tangents. I will post my writeup soon. ShankarSreenadh <sreesog Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:42:35 PM Re: Tantra-Veda thread Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Here I start with my introduction, list of beliefs etc. Love and regards,Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji,Here follows my write up. Shankar A note on Mantra Sastra This is more an inquiry into what classifications exist in Mantra Sastra rather than presentation of a particular section of the subject or the view point of a particular school. And for that, I attempt to deal more with Mantra Sastra, the nature of the subject that underlies the mantra vidyas of different schools and not the apparent attributes of those. Fundamentals of Mantra Sastra and Mantra Upasana Beejas represent natural phenomena. The beejas used in a mantra define the nature of Devata. Sound and meaning are inseparable. Meaning is known through sound and sound is realized through meditation on the meaning. Mantra and Devata are inseparable. Mantra is the sound-form or subtle body of Devata. Chanting mantra is the same as worshiping Devata, it is not merely a means but the yoga itself. Mantra yoga is about using the upadhi of external sound to realizing the one beyond upadhi. Mantra yoga at the four different levels of vak is basically the path of realization. In case of kamya, mantra serves istapurti. Mantra Japa is Karma, Yajna. Its fruit is two-fold. One is the immediate result of karma. Another is its impression on the doer. Thus along with istapurti mantra upasana results in the elevation of the upasaka. Karma is called isti in the pravritti marga, because it results in ista purti. However when performed according to Dharma, it will also ensure the doer’s elevation, develop antarmukhatva – from gross to subtle to causal. The seeker’s attention slowly shifts from the result of action to the one who grants the results, namely the Devata. And the object of worship too, gradually becomes more Devata centric and less desire centric. Thus the sadhana phases into nivritti from pravritti, and karma becomes more of nishkama karma and causes karma nivritti because of non-attachment to the immediate result. The sole objective of karma/mantra yoga will be the fulfilment of Devata’s wish, and the being starts realizing himself as an instrument of divine. Vedic Mantra The entire Mantra canon is organized in different sections. Samhita, Brahmana and Aranyaka are the three parts of Veda. Samhita deals mostly with hymns to Devatas, expounding Devata Tatva through the Mantras. Brahmana is the ritual aspect. Aranyaka is more philosophical in nature. Upanishad is further condensation of the spiritual philosophy of the Veda. These four are said to be meant for a person in his four ashramas: recite samhita during brahmacarya, implement brahmana during grhastha ashrama, follow and contemplate on aranyaka in vanaprastha and meditate on upanishadic message in sanyasa. Besides, there are four Vedas meant for four purposes. Rigveda deals primarily with Devata tatva. Yajurveda applies Riks for yajna. Sama Veda is about sama gana and Atharva veda is about prayoga of Riks and Atharva mantras for kamya and para. The very text is organized in chapters, dealing with mantras different purposes like Satru nasana and Ista prapti. Vedangas deal with understanding the Mantra Sastra of Veda. Kalpa deals with ritual aspect, Vyakarana with grammar, Nirukta with etymology and semantics, Chandas with metre, Jyotisha with Astronomy and Siksha with phonetics. Swara, dhvani, varna and artha, the different aspects of mantra are dealt with in these subjects. Though it is a whole science in itself, we can see in a table the different subjects that have to do with Mantra directly. Brahman | | Sabda – Akasa | |____ Dhvani | |____ Dhvani (vibration) | | |____ Beeja (Mantra – Energy) | |____ Swara | |____ Swara (Siksha) | |____ Nada (Sangeeta) |____ Varna |____ Akshara (Alphabet/syllable) |____ Artha (Nirukta) |____ Vyakarana |____ Chandas Tantric Mantra Tantric mantra portion is not organized in exclusive texts meant for it, but is found rather in combination with the application. If we look at Vedic references in Tantra, they refer primarily to Atharva Veda, the one meant more for prayoga/application. Many Devatas worshiped in Tantra. However most of them are different forms of Pradhana devatas – Vishnu, Siva, Devi, Ganapati. The beejas/mantras in a Vidya determine the form and nature of Devata. The Devata of a Vidya having ananda/maya beejas is a pleasant form while Devata of a Vidya having asuddha/krura beejas is a terrible form. For example, Lalita and Bhuvaneswari are a pleasant form because the primary beeja in the vidyas is Mahamaya/Bhuvaneswari/Akasa/Ananda. Kali, Tara, Chinnamasta etc are terrible forms because of the nature of primary beejas of those vidyas. In Veda there is a distinction between devata tatva/mantra and application. That Tantra has more to do with practice, is evident from the fact that even the main mantra portion in Tantra contains beejas that are primarily meant for application - hum, phat, vashat, bhindi, chindi, vicce, svaha, vashat etc. In Veda the "application" or "prayoga" beejas are found more in non-samhita portion. Their presence in samhita is minimal. Taittireeya Aranyaka 4.27.1 says khat phat jahichindhi bhindhi handhi katiti vaacaH kruuraaNi There are two aspects about these beejas. The first is that they are more prayoga oriented. Second is that these beejas are “krura” and for that reason the presiding deities of Mantra vidyas containing these beejas are usually terrible forms. Both of these are in total agreement with what Tantric Mantra Sastra is – it is practice oriented in the first place, and secondly the vidyas containing these beejas are presided by Devatas of terrible forms. Types of Mantras Mantra vidyas are of three types – astra (ex. Agneyastra Pasupata etc), kamya (ex. Runa vimocana, aiswarya prapti, jnana, satru nasana etc), para (taraka, nishkala etc). Kamya vidyas are further classified based on their purpose and prayoga (stambhana, vasikarana etc). All the three kinds of vidyas are present in both Vedic canon as well as Tantra. Para Vidyas are found in Vedic canon in abundance (esp. Aranyaka portion, partly in Samhita). They are present in every major Tantric text – Saiva (Nishkala, Ajapa, Mrutyunjaya Pasupata etc), Sakta (Tarakamba, Tara traya etc), Vaishnava (Para is one of the five forms in which Vishnu is worshiped). Kamya in Vedic context are found in two forms – istapurti and prayoga oriented. The former pervade the whole karma portion of Vedic text – Samhita, Brahmana, Kalpa Sutras. The second type is abundantly visible in Atharva Veda. Tantra classifies these as Shatkarma. Astra vidyas are the specialization of Dhanurveda, an Upaveda. They use various compositions with Veda mantras as the base, and not limited to those. Most of these are found in the Tantra, along with their application. Mantra and Devata The pradhana Devatas found in Puranic, Vedic and Tantric canon are common. Their nature is the same all across, though different Vidyas worship them in different forms. For instance Ganapati represents Para Vak at muladhara, He is Vighna nayaka, and the also ruler of (akshara) Ganas. Though He is worshiped through different vidyas in different forms in different schools, His mula tatva in all those is the same. Similarly Siva is Rudra in subtle world, Isvara in the causal world and Sada Siva in the eternal sense. This mula tatva is the same across all the schools. Vishnu is the pervader (Vishnu), illuminator (Aditya), Sthiti karaka. This mula tatva is the same across all the schools. Please refer to the articles Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra, for explanation on these tatvas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Well written! Appreciated. Let us continue our effort to organize (or to compile and present) our efforts without clashing as of now - let things go independently. I will present my write-up possibly by tomorrow evening or day after tomorrow morning. You proceed with your next write-up. After such 2-3 write-up from each of us - we will clash and start arguing. Till then it is work time. Let us hope that due to this thread of preparation for argumentation, we will collect, compile and present something for the benefit of us and the group. Happy study and work. Note 1: Your presentation is beautiful - well written, well-presented. Note 2: I am in doubt where to start, thinking - * whether to write something in detail such as "Introduction to the study of Mantravada" or * Just limit myself to the explanation and comparison or the list I provided with a similar list regarding Veda Mantras or * to dive into the Tantric texts and compare and contrast the application of Mantras presented in Pure Tantric texts (aimed at Upasana alone) with the Mantras presented in Mantravada texts (aimed at benefits reaped from Shadkarma as well) along with contrasting the same with Vedic System and Mantras. Even the subject we selected is too huge and much ground work seems to be necessary; also my own understanding is not much good enough (even though better than many). Let us see where I can touch and clarify a bit next - I will try my best. How ever the direction of argumentation be certainly the group will get some good write-ups I assure, whether it be from me or Shankara Bharadwaj ji. Love and regards, Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji, I think I am more or less done, with this write up backed by the two articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra. I might at most try to put up one more small piece - if I find anything worth mentioning, which is either strinkingly similar between the "Vaidika" and "Tantrika" or unique to one of them. I think it is too lengthy by now to inspire a full reading However I will wait till you are done or I can think of something - catch you soon Shankar Sreenadh <sreesog Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:46:41 PM Re: Tantra-Veda thread Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Well written! Appreciated. Let us continue our effort to organize (or to compile and present) our efforts without clashing as of now - let things go independently. I will present my write-up possibly by tomorrow evening or day after tomorrow morning. You proceed with your next write-up. After such 2-3 write-up from each of us - we will clash and start arguing. Till then it is work time. Let us hope that due to this thread of preparation for argumentation, we will collect, compile and present something for the benefit of us and the group. Happy study and work. Note 1: Your presentation is beautiful - well written, well-presented. Note 2: I am in doubt where to start, thinking - * whether to write something in detail such as "Introduction to the study of Mantravada" or * Just limit myself to the explanation and comparison or the list I provided with a similar list regarding Veda Mantras or * to dive into the Tantric texts and compare and contrast the application of Mantras presented in Pure Tantric texts (aimed at Upasana alone) with the Mantras presented in Mantravada texts (aimed at benefits reaped from Shadkarma as well) along with contrasting the same with Vedic System and Mantras. Even the subject we selected is too huge and much ground work seems to be necessary; also my own understanding is not much good enough (even though better than many). Let us see where I can touch and clarify a bit next - I will try my best. How ever the direction of argumentation be certainly the group will get some good write-ups I assure, whether it be from me or Shankara Bharadwaj ji. Love and regards,Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Inspiration is never lost when there is some good material to argue with. So please bear with me - let us see what I can collect and present. Give me a day or two. Sorry for the extra time it is taking - since I have to collect and present and don't have anything ready made; no, not even the detailed material and arguments. Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > I think I am more or less done, with this write up backed by the two articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra. I might at most try to put up one more small piece - if I find anything worth mentioning, which is either strinkingly similar between the "Vaidika" and "Tantrika" or unique to one of them. I think it is too lengthy by now to inspire a full reading > > However I will wait till you are done or I can think of something - catch you soon > > Shankar> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji, No hurry, please take your time. These are not topics that need to be hurried about Sreenadh <sreesog Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:20:57 AM Re: Tantra-Veda thread Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Inspiration is never lost when there is some good material to argue with. So please bear with me - let us see what I can collect and present. Give me a day or two. Sorry for the extra time it is taking - since I have to collect and present and don't have anything ready made; no, not even the detailed material and arguments. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > I think I am more or less done, with this write up backed by the two articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra. I might at most try to put up one more small piece - if I find anything worth mentioning, which is either strinkingly similar between the "Vaidika" and "Tantrika" or unique to one of them. I think it is too lengthy by now to inspire a full reading > > However I will wait till you are done or I can think of something - catch you soon > > Shankar> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Dear Shankar Bharadwaj ji, Due to the busy personal life I am unable to find time for this pending task as of now. [There is a heavy office schedule as of now and I am have an exam on 15th Feb - thus both my day time and possible free time at home - both are chocked. This is the very reason I am not active in the group recently] I will revisit this with detailed info, write-up etc after 15th Feb. Please bear with me. Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > No hurry, please take your time. These are not topics that need to be hurried about > > > > > ________________________________> Sreenadh sreesog > Thursday, January 22, 2009 12:20:57 AM> Re: Tantra-Veda thread> > > Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, > Inspiration is never lost when there is some good material to argue with. So please bear with me - let us see what I can collect and present. Give me a day or two. Sorry for the extra time it is taking - since I have to collect and present and don't have anything ready made; no, not even the detailed material and arguments. > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > > > I think I am more or less done, with this write up backed by the two articles on Mantra Vidyas and Mantra Sastra. I might at most try to put up one more small piece - if I find anything worth mentioning, which is either strinkingly similar between the "Vaidika" and "Tantrika" or unique to one of them. I think it is too lengthy by now to inspire a full reading > > > > However I will wait till you are done or I can think of something - catch you soon > > > > Shankar> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji,I understand, please don't bother. We'll discuss when you are free ShankarSreenadh <sreesog Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 11:51:14 AM Re: Tantra-Veda thread Dear Shankar Bharadwaj ji, Due to the busy personal life I am unable to find time for this pending task as of now. [There is a heavy office schedule as of now and I am have an exam on 15th Feb - thus both my day time and possible free time at home - both are chocked. This is the very reason I am not active in the group recently] I will revisit this with detailed info, write-up etc after 15th Feb. Please bear with me. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > No hurry, please take your time. These are not topics that need to be hurried about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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