[Ind-Arch] Fwd: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientists

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Dear Shri Avtarji,

 

Namaste,

 

Can I refer to your following statement ?

 

"Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)" the previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they are actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!"

 

I shall be highly grateful if you kindly clarify as to where and when did any Vedic astrologer claim that they can pre-see janmas and foresee the future janmas as well. To my knowledge Lord Buddha could see his past janmas only when he got spiritual enlightenment. Trikalajna Rishis are said to be able to see the past, present and the future. To my knowledge the Vedic astrologers think that the natal horoscope reflects only the effects of the past karma in this life. However this is not say that no karma of this life will have any effect in this life at all.

 

I fully agree with your quotation from the Suryasiddhanta "Bhanor Makara Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat shanmasa dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with the ingress of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinayana start with its ingress into Karkata rashi".

 

To my knowledge the Winter Solstice started occurring in the Makar Rashi from the 19th century BCE and the Winter Solstice continued to occur in the Makar Rashi till the 3rd century CE and after that it started occurring in the Dhanu rashi. This junction of change over from Makar Rashi to Dhanu Rashi in the 3rd century CE is memorable and from that time the Ayanamsha correction started. Astronomically after 25,800 years from the time in the 3rd century CE the Wnter Solstice should occur again at the junction of change over from Makar Rashi to Dhanu Rashi. In the absence of specific reference to Makar Sankranti in any of the pre-19th century BCE ancient texts it appears reasonable to say that before the 19 th century BCE the Makar Sankranti was not observed on the Uttarayana day and therefore there is no need to observe Makar Sankranti on the Uttarayana day now.

 

I would like to have your valuable opinion as to whether you agree with the above analysis and if not why. I am also requesting the other reputed scholars of the Jyotish sashtra, who are in these addressed groups, such as Shri Robertsonji, Shri Sreenadhji, Shri Sunil Nairji, Dr. R.N.Iyengarji, Shri Ajai katesariyaji, Shri Gopal Goelji, Shri vinay jhaji and other scholars with interest in this subject, to give their valuable opinion on this very crucial matter.

Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote:

Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved[ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientistsIndiaArchaeology Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:36 AM

 

 

Dear Group,Namaskar!"Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)" the previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they are actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters! The following comment from a member is very interesting in this context,"So why should Avtarji and others insist that Makar Sankranti should be observed on the Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as the Makar Sankranti and the Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the Sun enters the Nirayana Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should not be taken an excuse to derail the making of the authentic Hindu Calendar". I wish the member concerned had shunned his tamoguni budhi, and purused at least the following excerpts from my post No.8373 of Feb 25,09--hardly of a few days back! And I quote just a few relevant paras:"4. It is thus futile to talk about the Vedic rashis being so called sayana or so

called nirayana since you cannot discuss the qualities and qualifications of a non-existent entity! Such gimmicks are used only in predictive astrology like kala-sarpa yoga/dosha by "invisible" lunar nodes, which are just mathematical points--- or imaginary Dreshkana and saptamasha and what not divisions of imaginary twelve equal divisions of Mesha etc. rashis and "correct phalita" through imaginary vimshotari and ashtotari and yogini and kalachakra and hundreds of such dashas etc. etc.! Such gimmicks, however, cannot work in astronomy, which demands proofs for any claims made!"The nirayana versus sayana mess that has derailed the Hindu calendar is actually a creation of Hindu jyotishis (who call themselves Vedic astrologers (sic!) these days! It is actually the difference of the calculated longitudes of the Surya Sidhanta vis-à-vis the actual phenomena of Winter Solstice etc. that is known as Ayanamsha! For example, the Surya Sidhanta says

categorically, "Bhanor Makara Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat shanmasa dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with the ingress of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinayana start with its ingress into Karkata rashi" but when it comes to its calculation, there is a difference of about 24 days/degrees between the actual Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti and the Surya Sidhanta calculated Makar Sankranti as on date!" ......."7. Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, therefore, are a direct import from Babylonia via the Greeks and all the sidhantas, right from the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha to the last sidhanta of Bhaskara-II viz. the Sidhanta Shiromani have invariably talked about Makara Sankranti being another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti being another name of Dakshinayana and so on. As I have gone through almost all the sidhantas, I can assure you that none of the

sidhanta-kars had any idea about the phenomenon of precession!" However, all the Puranas like Bhagavata, Shiva, Linga, Devi etc. etc. also talk of the same phenomena as the sidhantas i.e. "Makar Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti another name of Dakshinayana" and so on. (Pl. see 1999b.doc). As such, the Pauranic rahis are an after thought and a development of post-Surya-Sidhanta era! ......"*** **** ***** ***** ****And the most important point that appears to be the nightmare of the "Vedic astrologers" is (from the same post):"Thus if we really want to streamline our calendars in accordance with the Vedas and Puranas, the earlier we come out of the stupor of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashsis the better! If at all it is a necessary evil to have rashis included in the calendar, the only alternative is that we have to include the so called sayana Rashis, since they are the ones found in the Puranas and sidhantas (and

not in the Vedas or the VJ etc.) but we have to simultaneously de-link Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras from the same.That is the only and only way to streamline the Hindu calendar as per the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha and even Puranas."** **** *** ***Then again, on perusal of post No.8374 and the "list of correct dates of festivals in 2009-10" in the files section, things will be all the more clear that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, being actually non-existent divisions, are imaginary and are being clubbed with Uttarayana etc. only as a substitute of the baseless and useless nirayana mess! It is only to "choose the lesser of two evils"---since if some states take Meshadi as the start of the new solar year, they have to be informed that it must be a so called sayana Meshadi since Vishuva (Vernal Equinox) and not Meshadi is the real start of new solar year, and so on.Hope these "Vedic astrologers" will not make a laughing stock of

themselves any more by creating nirayana versus sayana controversies and so on.I also pray to God that He save the Hindus from the clutches of "Vedic astrologers" ---whetehr sayana Vedic or nirayana Vedic so that we can streamline our calendars in accordance with the scriputres and not as per the whims of Lahiri-walas and Ramana-walas and Chandra-Hariwalas and so on.With regards,A K KaulIndiaArchaeology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Thank you Iyengarji,> > So you agree that Makar Sankranti could not have been linked to Uttarayana in the ancient past as Makara Sankramana itself was not mentioned in the literature of the ancient past. So why should Avtarji and others insist that Makar Sankranti should be observed on the Uttarayana day. Let

these festivals such as the Makar Sankranti and the Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the Sun enters the Nirayana Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should not be taken an excuse to derail the making of the authentic Hindu Calendar. > > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Wed, 3/4/09, aareni <aareni wrote:> > aareni <aareni> [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientists> IndiaArchaeology> Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 4:55 PM> > > > > > > This is a leading question of Lawyers who are supposed to ask "when did you stop beating your wife?". Firstly where in the whole of

canonical Vedic literature (Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, Vedanga) Makara Sakramana is mentioned??! !!> > RNI> > IndiaArchaeology, "sunil_bhattacharjy a" <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> >> > Dear Avtarji,> > > > May I request both you and Dr. Iyengar to please let us know, by> > giving the actual reference only, as to where is it said in the Vedic> > literature that the Uttarayana must always coincide with the Makar> > Sankramana just because there was such a coincidence at one time. > > > > Regards,> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > IndiaArchaeology, "jyotirved" <jyotirved@>> > wrote:> > >> > > Dr. R. N. Iyengarji,> > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > >

> > > > > > > It was really an excellent and to the point post about the pathetic> > state of> > > affairs regarding all our festivals--- fasts and muhurtas especially the> > > comments, "Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed> > out this> > > in my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated with > > Makara> > > Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got muddled> > up is> > > no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. Evidences are there> > for every> > > Hindu to see.>> > > > > > > > > > > > I had been waiting with a bated breath for comments from the learned> > members> > > of this and other forums to which I had forwarded your post> > regarding the>

> > wrong method of fixing Makara Sankranti and other Sankrantis. I was> > under> > > the impression that maybe people have become accustomed to my> > "hollering"> > > that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days and have stopped> > > taking my statements seriously, but they will certainly respond to> > the post> > > of a scientist and Vedic scholar of your standing. But I am really> > > disappointed on such a deafening silence from everybody even to your> > post!> > > Such a silence is certainly not a healthy indication of a real cultural> > > interaction!> > > > > > > > > > > > <High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this openly and> > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on a day> >

other> > > than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should also> > interpret the> > > modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at the four> > sankrantis> > > (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the ancient Vedic> > texts. The> > > above four sankramanas are the four corners >> > > > > > > > > > > > I had sent letters by registered post together with my panchangas> > quite a> > > few years back to all the six Shankaracharyas, besides quite a few other> > > dharmacharyas, explaining to them the sorry state of affairs of our> > > festivals and muhurtas in detail. (Pl. see Shankara.doc in files> > section). I> > > did not get any response from any dharmacharya in spite of my several> > > reminders. >

> > > > > > > > > > > As I had sent copies of my such letters to all the leading> > panchangamakers> > > in the country, including Janmabhoomi (Gujarati) in Mumbai, a> > gentleman in> > > the HinduCalendar forum pointed out to me the "adjudication" by> > Jagadguru> > > Shankaracharya of Kanchikamakoti Peetha that is being> > printed/published in> > > Janmabhoomi Panchanga every year. I am forwarding a copy of that> > > translation from HinduCalendar forum to this forum for perusal of> > all the> > > members.> > > > > > > > > > > > It will be evident from that post that the Swamigal had put the ball> > in the> > > court (lap!?) of nirayana astrologers for "adjudication" instead of> > doing>

> > some serious thinking on an issue of such importance himself, and no> > wonder> > > that the nirayana astrologers have advised the Acharya that we must> > continue> > > to follow Lahiri Ayanamsha for horoscopy as well as festivals and> > muhurtas!> > > It is just like late N C Lahiri, as Secretary of Saha Calendar Reform> > > Committee, asking Hindu astrologers their views about the> > Rashichakra that> > > must be followed for festivals and muhurtas and no wonder almost all the> > > jyotishis had, in unison, opined that it must be "Chitrapaksha" .> > > > > > > > > > > > <I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the Dharmacharya> > Sabha headed> > > by Sri Swami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great regard)> > refutes me>

> > and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of January 14th> > is the> > > real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that Krishna mentions in the> > > Bhagavadgita. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has been my sad experience over the last about fifteen years that> > neither> > > any dharmacharya nor any "Vamadeva" nor any "Parashara" etc. etc.> > responds> > > to any inconvenient questions, correct answers to which may put them at> > > loggerheads with their followers/shishyas, ninety-nine per cent of> > whom are> > > "Vedic astrologers" i.e. Lahiri Makar-Sankranti- walas! These> > dharmacharyas> > > and "Parasharas" and "Vamadevas" etc. etc. are also in a Catch-22> > situation:> > > If they take a correct stand now and advise

their shishyas and> > followers to> > > follow correct dates for festivals and muhurtas in future, it may affect> > > their own standing adversely, since maybe they are afraid of being> > > questioned as to why they had been advocating a wrong gamut of> > calendars and> > > even horoscopy till date! The dilemma of dharmacharyas will be> > evident from> > > a separate mail titled "I do not want to lose my pontiff's seat".> > > > > > > > > > > > These "Vamadevas" and "Parasharas" and maybe even dharmacharyas, on the> > > other hand, set their shishyas and followers on the job of> > rabble-rousing,> > > and instead of refuting any of the points raised by me, these> > shishyas and> > > followers go on abusing me left and right by calling me a

Muslim> > convert or> > > a Xtian being funded by Missionaries and so on with the pious hope> > that I> > > will just give up in exasperation!> > > > > > > > > > > > However, those shishyas and followers, including their mentors and> > acharyas,> > > are entirely mistaken in the assessment of the outcome of a dharmayudha!> > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding Bhagvadgita, Bhagwan Krishna has said in the same Gita that a> > > person with tamoguni budhi sees dharma as adharma and adharma as dharma!> > > And since the dharmacharyas and even some "Parasharas" and> > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > also are supposed to have read at least the Gita, if no other> > shastra, they> > > are thus proving themselves to have been enveloped

by tamoguni budhi> > as they> > > are seeing wrong dates of festivals as correct ones and vice-versa!> > They> > > are also too cowardly to either admit it openly or to prove the> > other party> > > wrong!> > > > > > It is evident from the fact that a "his holiness of art of one thing> > or the> > > other" had put his stamp of approval on the date of birth of Bhagwan> > Ram as> > > January 14, 5114 BCE, at about noon, not because "his holiness" had> > > visualized that date of Bhagwan Ram through his tapasya, but maybe only> > > because the date of January 14, 5114 BCE, had been fixed by some> > Income Tax> > > Commissioner! After all, one cannot be on the wrong side of the> > powers that> > > be, in spite of that "one" being a "his holiness of

the art of> > something or> > > the other".> > > > > > > > > > > > It is only because of such sad experiences with dharmacharyas and> > "top notch> > > Vedic astrologers" and even the Govt. of India etc. etc. that I am> > keeping> > > all these facts and figures before a common man so that he sees for> > himself> > > as to how he is being taken for a ride in the name of "Vedic> > astrology" by> > > dharmacharyas as well as jyotishaharyas and even the Rashtriya> > Panchanga.> > > The general public must now stand up in revolt of such atrocities so> > that we> > > stop celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days> > because of the> > > wrong advice and "adjudication" of these very acharyas and> >

"Vamadevas" etc.> > > etc. whom we are treating as our friends, philosophers and guides.> > > > > > And that is why I keep on repeating, "we do not need enemies to ruin our> > > dharma if we have 'friendly Vedic astrologers' together with> > dharmacharyas> > > around to do that job by making us celebrate Uttarayana on January> > 14 and> > > Pitra-amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali and so on.> > > > > > It is again a Clarion call to all the Hindu members of the society> > to wake> > > up, wake up and wake up!> > > > > > With kind personal regards,> > > > > > A K Kaul> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "aareni" <aareni@>

wrote:> > > > > > >Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed out this in > > > > > > > my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated with > > > > > > > Makara Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got > > > > > > > muddled up is no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. > > > > > > > Evidences are there for every Hindu to see. I had heard that Sangha > > > > > > > Parivar had decided to observe Sankranti on 22 December. I don't know > > > > > > > whether this info is correct or not. If yes, then GREAT otherwise > > > > > > > well phu! phu!> > > > > > > High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this openly and > > > >

> > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on a day > > > > > > > other than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should also > > > > > > > interpret the modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at > > > > > > > the four sankrantis (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the > > > > > > > ancient Vedic texts. The above four sankramanas are the four corners > > > > > > > of Hindu religious observances of all castes and sects. Many > > > > > > > festivals have also originated based on their positions. Observing > > > > > > > Uttarayana on the wrong day (I am not talking of the time) is as > > > > > > > wrong as observing Amaavaasya on Chaturthi! Of course no one does

> > > > > > > this mistake, simply because it is easy to see whether moon is > > > > > > > visible or not (at least approximately) . Uttarayana was also fixed by > > > > > > > observations in the Vedic past [see the Mahavrata, Pravargya and the > > > > > > > 21 day rituals] and NOT BY CONSULTING AN ASTROLOGER'S WRONG PANCANGA.> > > > > > > I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the Dharmacharya Sabha > > > > > > > headed by Sri SWami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great regard) > > > > > > > refutes me and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of > > > > > > > January 14th is the real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that > > > > > > > Krishna mentions in the

Bhagavadgita.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > RN Iyengar> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Just one example will suffice:> > > > > > > > Pongal--cum- Makar-Sankranti is supposed to be a seasonal festival. > > > > > > > > But if Pongal is clubbed with Lahiri Makar Sankrnati, as is being > > > > > > > > done by "Vedic astrologers" , it means it has been going on > > > > > > > advancing > > > > > > > > by one day every 72 years. Thus it must have coincided with >

> > > > > > > Uttarayana viz. the Winter Solstice in 285 AD---the zero year of > > > > > > > > Lahiriwalas! > > > > > > > > Prior to that, say in about 1400 BCE, the period of the Vedanga > > > > > > > > Jyotisha, Lahiri-Pongal- cum-Lahiri- Makar-Sankranti was about twenty-> > > > > > > > four days (at the rate of one day for every seventy-two years for > > > > > > > > 1400+285=1685 years) before Uttarayana i.e. around the beginning of > > > > > > > > November in 1400 BCE as per the Julian calendar, if there could be > > > > > > > > any such calendar then!> > > > > > > > It means that Pongal would have been then exactly 24 days prior to > > > > > >

> > the real Uttarayana as it is ahead these days! What type of a > > > > > > > > seasonal festival is it then?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> >>