Fwd: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientists

December 31, 2008

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Shri I Menonji,

Namaskar!

The article in Daily Michingan is full of factual errors about

astronomy:

1. The duration of Tropical year, which Bhaskaracharya-I is supposed

to have followed, is 365.2421898 days and not 365.258756484! It is

actually the duration of the Surya Sidhanta year, followed by

Bhaskara-I, Aryabhata, Varahamihira etc. since every Sidhanta

navigated around the SS as it was supposed to be a divine work. And

the duration of the SS year is more by about 3.5 seconds than even

the sidereal year!

2.Since Indian astronomers had no knowledge of precession till the

time of Munjala (10th century AD), it cannot be expected by any

stretch of imagination that they were talking of any sidereal year

because a sidereal year is calculated by subtracting annual

precession from the duration of a Tropical Year!

3. I have also proved it in several posts that all the sidhantas are

talking of Makar Sankranti coinciding with Uttarayana and so on which

means that they were talking of Tropical i.e. seasonal years. It is

actually the same duration of the Surya Sidhanta year that has

created the confusion regarding Sayana versus nirayana---when there

are actually no nirayana rashis!

4. I have also clarified it several times that the Surya Sidhanta

nomenclature of Rashis is based on Grecho-Chaldean constellational

astronomy, and they are a virtual copy of Western Rashis--aligned to

seasons without any rhyme or reason!

5. The original Surya Sidhanta is the main culprit for having misled

and confused Indian jyotishis because there is a direct conflict

between its calculated longitudes as against its presumptions that

Mehsa Sankranti is another name of Vishuva and at the same time

claiming that right from the dawn of creation it got hooked to

Ashvini nakshatra.

6. Regarding " Astronomy was then interwoven with astrology and since

ancient times Indians have involved the planets (called Grahas) with

the determination of human fortunes. The planets Shani, i.e. Saturn

and Mangal i.e. Mars were considered inauspicious " in Excerpt 5, this

presumption also is without any basis unless by " ancient times " the

author means post Budhist era. It has by now been proved by several

reputed scholars in Archaeoastronomy papers that there is no mention

of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis even in Parashara Samhita nor in Rig

Jyotisham or Yajur Jyotisham or Atharva Jyotisham or even Atharva

Veda Parishishtha!

This post is just to put the records straight.

With regards,

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , vavamenon <vavamenon@>

wrote:

>

> True Bharatheeyans can always be proud of their heritage, existed

since the time of creation unbroken till now. Yes,dark ages were

there in Indian history, when foreigners tried to impose ONE-WAY-

TRACK Philosophies.

>

> It is imperative that we get back to our vedic roots, from which we

have been kept away during the slavery period.

>

> vm

>

> --- On Wed, 12/31/08, mega_irreverant-he@ <mega_irreverant-

he@> wrote:

>

> mega_irreverant-he@ <mega_irreverant-he@>

> Hinduism_environment (fwd) Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu

sage scientists

> vedic_research_institute ,

hinduism_environment

> Wednesday, December 31, 2008, 4:51 PM

Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientists

>

> Following are a few highlights of some inventions by our ancient

sage-scientists

> -- most of these are excerpted from the MICHIGAN DAILY of January

24, 1992:

>

> ASTRONOMY: In the 5th century CE, Vedic scientist and astronomer

> Bhaskaracharya confirmed earlier calculations of the ancients of

the time taken

> by earth to orbit the Sun to nine decimal places, 365.258756484

days -- a value

> that was later accepted by modern science.

>

> MEDICINE: Sushruta performed surgery in India, 3,000 years ago,

using

> 125 kinds of surgical instruments " so advanced they could cut a hair

> longitudinally. " Physician Charaka described the functions of the

heart and the

> circulatory system 2,000 years before the English physician Dr.

Harvey.

>

> PHYSICS: According to Nobel prize-winner Dr. David Josephson, the

> Vedas hold the key to the laws of the mind and thought process

which are

> correlated to the quantum fields that are the operation and

distribution of

> particles at atomic and molecular levels.

>

> METALLURGY: India's heritage of solving problems is often

overshadowed

> by centuries of colonialism and conquest. Outside Delhi I visited

one of the

> oldest monuments to that history... pillar of iron alloy, smelted

by Indian

> metallurgists with such skill that it has remained rust-less for

1,500 years.

> (Photograph on page 533.) These superb technicians were brethren of

Indian

> thinkers who originated the concepts of zero and infinity and

devised the

> inaccurately named Arabic numeral system, giving the science of

mathematics to a

> world drenched in superstitious ignorance. - Bryan Hodgson in the

NATIONAL

> GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE Volume 167, Number 4, April 1965 page 527.

>

> GENERAL: " It is already becoming clear that the chapter which had a

> Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not

to end in

> self-destruction of the human race. " - Dr. Arnold Toynbee, world

historian.

>

> A compilation of excerpts from various sources follows:

>

> o Excerpt 1 - Indians originated concepts of zero, infinity,

numerals

> o Excerpt 2 - 'Science. We did it first'

> o Excerpt 3 - Tachyons lose mass, energy the faster they travel

> o Excerpt 4 - Mundakopanishad, Atharv Ved: Tachyons faster than

light

> o Excerpt 5 - Astronomy in ancient Bharat

> o Excerpt 6 - Knowledge of equinoxes, precession, astrology,

palmistry

>

> Excerpt 1

>

> India's heritage of solving problems is often overshadowed by

centuries of

> colonialism and conquest. Outside Delhi I visited one of the oldest

monuments to

> that history . . . pillar of iron alloy, smelted by Indian

metallurgists with

> such skill that it has remained rustless for 1,500 years.

(Photograph on page

> 533.)

>

> These superb technicians were brethren of Indian thinkers who

originated

> the concepts of zero and infinity and devised the inaccurately

named Arabic

> numeral system, giving the science of mathematics to a world

drenched in

> superstitious ignorance.

>

> - Bryan Hodgson in National Geographic Magazine,

> Volume 167, Number 4, April 1985, page 527

>

> Excerpt 1 ends

>

> Excerpt 2

>

> Tachyons -- as everyone knows, don't they? -- are the whiz kids of

> Einstein's light theories. They are faster than light particles

(would we see

> them if they had headlights?) built as cosmic balancers into

Albert's equations.

> They represent metaphysical outriders in the material physics'

description of

> the universe.

>

> Einstein didn't think up his gravity and light theories. He

intuitively

> imagined them in a process called " thought experiment. " He saw them

in a trance-

> like state. No experiments. Others nearly verified his theories

experimentally

> much later.

>

> And that is basically how the Vedic scientitists of millenia past

parted

> the fabric of the cosmos -- with the meditative mind. The results

> revolutionized human knowledge and culture, and foreshadowed and

outpaced many

> of today's most exotic biological, astronomical and atomic

principles.

>

> As much as the world honors Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Plank,

Rutherford,

> Einstein and Heisenburg, the people of India could have a bumper

sticker that

> reads, " Science. We did it first. "

>

> And science was not separated from the sacred as it is today. Vedic

> science is charged with supernatural connections and purpose,

ultimately plugged

> into the primeval energy and omniscience (omni-science) of Brahman.

>

> The invention of the decimal, of numeration, including the

principles of

> zero and infinity in ancient India, are some of the greatest

contributions to

> human knowledge. Some other discoveries include the heliocentric

system of

> astronomy, the concept of lunar mansions, or nakshatr's; the

precession of

> equinoxes due to Earth's axial tilt and the determination of their

rate; the

> establishment of luni-solar and planetary years; the construction

of an

> astronomical calendar on a scientific basis; the rotation of Earth

on its axis;

> the knowledge of algebraic, geometric and trigonometric principles;

the

> spherical shapes of planets; the role of interplanetary attraction

in

> equilibrium; to name only a few.

>

> Vedic notions concerning time and space, the nature of light and

heat,

> gravity and magnetic attraction and the wave-theory of sound, were

later re-

> confirmed by modern science.

>

> - Hinduism Today, 1994

>

> Excerpt 2 ends

>

> Excerpt 3

>

> ''Forty years ago physicists were convinced that they had

discovered the

> smallest particle in the atom. Today they know that there is a

subatomic world

> which is tinier than the atomic nucleus and contains much more

energy than

> anything that we can so far conceive of as 'nascent energy.'

>

> The concept of time breaks down in this miraculous world.

Physicists no

> longer know where or how they should classify the electron, that

building stone

> and atomic envelope. With mathematically proven particles which

travel faster

> than light -- say, the tachyons, tradyons and luxyons calculated by

Gerald

> Feinberg -- all concepts of time collapse definitely. They behave

in exactly the

> opposite way to our 'normal' elementary particles.

>

> Instead of exhibiting infinite mass and with infinite energy when

they

> reach the speed of light -- as Einstein reckoned they would --

these particles

> lose mass and energy the faster they travel. What is really

inconceivable is

> that the speed of light is the lowest limit of their velocity --

above it they

> can reach a trillion fold the speed of light.''

>

> - Erich Von Daniken, Miracle of the Gods, Dell Pubs., Inc., 1975,

p. 163.

>

> Excerpt 3 ends

>

> Excerpt 4

>

> In 1998, someone wrote that Bharat owes $92.8 nillion to the world

>

> And how much does the rest of the world owe to Bharat as a result

for the

> following contributions?

>

> This is a partial list, couresy of Prasad Gokhale:

>

> Achievements of the Ancients

>

> Courtesy of Dr. P. V. Vartak, Pune, Bharat

>

> Medical Sciences

>

> Knowledge Ancient Reference Modern Reference

>

> Plastic Surgery (Repair of nose Sushruta A German

> Surgeon

> by the skin flap on forehead) (4000 - 2000 BCE) (1968 CE)

>

> Artificial Limb RigVed (1-116-15) 20th Century

>

> Chromosomes Cunavidhi(Mahabhara t) 1860-1910 CE

> (5500 BCE)

>

> Number of Chromosomes (23) Mahabharat-5500 BCE 1890 CE

>

> Combination of Male and Female Shrimad Bhagwat 20th Century

> chromosomes in zygote (4000 BCE)

>

> Analysis of Ears RigVed Labyrinth

>

> -McNally

>

> Eitereya Upanishad 1925

> (6000 BCE)

>

> Beginning of the Foetal Heart Eitereya Up. Robinson, 1972

> in the second month of pregnancy Shrimad Bhagwat

>

> Parthenogenesis Mahabharat 20th Century

>

> Test Tube Babies

> a) from the ovum only Mahabharat Not possible yet

>

> b) from the sperm only Mahabharat Not possible yet

> c) from both ovum and sperm Mahabharat Steptoe, 1979

>

> Elongation of Life in Shrimad Bhagwat Not yet

> confirmed

> Space Travel

>

> Cell Division (in 3 layers) Shrimad Bhagwat 20th Century

>

> Embryology Eitereya Upanishad 19th Century

> (6000 BCE)

>

> Micro-organisms Mahabharat 18th Century

>

> A material producing a disease S-Bhagwat (1-5-33) Haneman,18thCent.

> can prevent or cure the disease

> in minute quantity

>

> Developing Embyro in Vitro. Mahabharat 20th Century

>

> Life in trees and plants Mahabharat Bose,19thcent.

>

> 16 Functions of the Brain Eitereya Upanishad 19-20th Cent.

>

> Definition of Sleep Prashna-Upanishad 20th Century

> Patanjali Yogsootra

>

> Physical Sciences

>

> Knowledge Ancient Reference Modern Reference

>

> Velocity of Light RigVed 19th Century

> Sayan Bhashya (1400 CE)

>

> Trans-Saturnean Planets Mahabharat (5500 BCE) 17-19th Century

>

> Space Travel to another Shrimad Bhagwat Under Trials

> solar system (4000 BCE)

>

> Gravitational Force Prashnopanishad 17th Century

> (6000 BCE)

> Shankaracharya

> (500 BCE)

>

> Ultravoilet Band Sudhumravarna ---

> (Mundakopanishad - M.U)

>

> Infra-red Band Sulohita (M.U) ---

>

> Tachyons faster than light Manojava (M.U) Sudarshan, 1968

>

> Nuclear Energy Spullingini (M.U) 20th Cent.

>

> Black Holes Vishvaruchi (M.U) 20th Century

>

> Monsoon at Summer Solstice RigVed (23720 BCE) ---

>

> Entry in South America by Valmiki Ramayan ---

> Aeroplanes (7300 BCE)

>

> Phosphorescent Trident at V.Ramayan 1960 CE

> the Bay of Pisco, Peru,

> S.America

>

> Aeroplanes RigVed ---

> Ramayan

> Samarangan Sutradhara

> (1050 CE)

>

> Robot Samarangan Sootradhara ---

>

> Atom (Divisible) Shrimad Bhagwat Dalton

> (Indivisible)

> (4000 BCE) 1800 CE

>

> Subatomic Particles (Electr, Shrimad Bhagwat(4000 BCE) Thomas,

> Rutherford

> Proton,Neutron and other) (Param-Mahan) Chadwick (20th

> Cent.)

>

> Genesis of Universe RigVed (>10000 BCE) Gamaow, et.al

> (1950)

> (Nasadeeya Sootra)

>

> Atom Bomb Mahabharat (5500 BCE) 1945 CE

> (Brahm-Astra)

>

> Sound Energy used to powder Mahabharat (Vajrastra) Gavreau, 1964

> materials

>

> Mercury as energy source for Samrangan Sutradhara Indian Express,

> aeroplanes 20-10-1979 CE

>

> North Pole Valmiki Ramayan Piery, 1909 CE

>

> Antartica Valmiki Ramayan Piery, 1950 CE

> Premordial matter from RigVed (>10000 BCE) 20th Century

> which the universe emanated (Ambha)

>

> Formations of premordial RigVed (>10000 BCE) Gammow, 1950

> matter (Ambha-Nasadeeya)

>

> Natural Cycle of Water RigVed (>10000 BCE) 19th Cent.

> Valmiki Ramayan

>

> Physical Sciences

>

> Electricity (DC) Mitra/Varuna- Teja/Agasti 18th Cent.

>

> Water Analysis by Agasti (Prana+Udana) 19th Cent.

> electricity (H2 + O)

>

> Electroplating Agasti 19th Cent.

>

> Vega becoming Pole Star Mahabharat (Vanaparva) ---

>

> Seven Colors in sunrays RigVed (8-72-16) ---

>

> Black Spots on the Sun Valmiki Ramayan ---

>

> Temporary Bridge on Sea Valmiki Ramayan ---

>

> Equinox's and Solstice's RigVed (10-18-1) ---

>

> Meteors " Ulka " AtharvaVed (19-9) ---

>

> Pythagorus Theorm Sulbha Sootra (800 BCE) Pythagorus, 500

> BCE

>

> Comet (at Mula) Valmiki Ramayan ---

>

> Mars in Aldebaren V.Ramayan not occured in

> last

> " Breathing " of a Star RigVed (Nasadeeya) Gamov, 1950

>

> Gravity and Heat Production RigVed (Nasadeeya) Gamov, 1950

> in a Star

>

> Order of origin of space, RigVed, Upanishads ---

> gases, heat, water and earth

>

> Life on Earth Mahabharat, Puranas Salem, Jogesh

> 1980

> 1.7 X 10^10 years Pati-10^10 years

>

> Layers of Atmosphere accor- V.Ramayan (Kish.8) ---

> ding to specific gravity

>

> Microscope Mahabharat (5500 BCE) 16th Century

>

> Excerpt 4 ends

>

> Excerpt 5

>

> Astronomy in ancient Bharat

>

> sudheer_birod. .. wrote:

>

> Here is an extract from a book on the topic " Astronomy in Ancient

India " :

> [...] " Astronomy is one area which has fascinated all mankind from

the

> beginnings of history. In India the first references to astronomy

are to be

> found in the Rg Ved which is dated around 2000 BCE. Vedic Aryans in

fact deified

> the Sun, Stars and Comets.

>

> " Astronomy was then interwoven with astrology and since ancient

times

> Indians have involved the planets (called Grahas) with the

determination of

> human fortunes. The planets Shani, i.e. Saturn and Mangal i.e. Mars

were

> considered inauspicious.

>

> In the working out of horoscopes (called Janmakundali) , the

position of

> the Navagrahas, nine planets plus Rahu and Ketu (mythical demons,

evil forces)

> was considered. The Janmakundali was a complex mixture of science

and dogma. But

> the concept was born out of astronomical observations and

perception based on

> astronomical phenomenon.

>

> " In ancient times personalities like Aryabhatta and Varahamihira

were

> associated with Indian astronomy.

>

> " It would be surprising for us to know today that this science had

> advanced to such an extent in ancient India that ancient Indian

astronomers had

> recognised that stars are same as the sun, that the sun is center

of the

> universe (solar system) and that the circumference of the earth is

5000 Yojanas.

> One Yojana being 7.2 kms., the ancient Indian estimates came close

to the actual

> figure. [...] Regards Sudheer

>

> Excerpt 5 ends

>

> Excerpt 6

>

> Count Louis Hamon, known to millions as Cheiro, earned the highest

> appellations through thirty years of diligent study of the science

of

> prediction. He was an expert in both astrology and numerology but

was most

> famous for his amazing knowledge of palmistry. He wrote in 1949:

>

> " As regards the people who first understood and practiced this

study of the

> hand, we find undisputed proofs of their learning and knowledge.

Long before

> Rome or Greece or Israel was even heard of, the monuments of India

point back to

> an age of learning beyond, and still beyond.

>

> " From the astronomical calculations that the figures in their

temples

> represent, it has been estimated that the Hindus understood the

precession of

> the equinoxes centuries before the Christian era.

>

> " In some of the ancient cave temples, the mystic figures of the

[deities]

> silently tell that such knowledge had been possessed and used in

advance of all

> those nations afterward so celebrated for their learning.

>

> " It has been demonstrated that to make a change from one sign to

another in

> the zodiacal course of the sun must have occupied at least 2,140

years, and how

> many centuries elapsed before such changes came to be observed and

noticed it is

> impossible even to estimate.

>

> " The intellectual power that was necessary to make these

observations

> speaks for itself; and yet it is to such a people that we trace the

origin of

> the study under consideration. With the spread of the Hindu

teachings into other

> lands do we trace the spread of knowledge of palmistry.

>

> " The Hindu Vedas are the oldest scriptures that have been found, and

> according to some authorities they have been the foundation of even

the Greek

> schools of learning. "

>

> - Cheiro's Language Of The Hand by Cheiro; Herbert

> Jenkins Limited, London, 1949.

>

January 3, 2009

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dear Dr. Anand M. Sharan,

Namaskar!

Your post is very interesting, especially the following

comment, " Actually, Shree Kauljee's inaccurate knowledge of the

history of precession among Ancient Hindu Astronomers causes a lot

of confusion. "

In one of your posts you had yourself said that you have not read any

of the sidhantas and as such, cannot quote the exact shlokas from any

of the sidhanta, which talks of precession! Then in one of your

another posts you had quoted chapter and verse from Burgess'

translation about the accuray of Hindu astronomers in having

determined the rate of precession correctly!

However, unlike you, I have read quite a few sidhants, especially the

Surya Sidhanta with Sanskrit commentary " Sudha Varshini " by Pt.

Sudhakar Dwivedi, Hindi commentary by Mahavir Prasad Shrivastav and

of course, the world famous Burgess translation! All the

commentators have declared unequivocally that Maya the mlechha had

absolutely no knowledge of precession. On the other hand, the " world

famous " shlokas " trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... " of the SS are an

interpolation of a much later date of about tenth century AD! That

also has been admitted by all the comentators! If you take these

shlokas, which are supposed to be referring to precession/ayanamsha

as authentic and from the original Surya Sidhanta, then for your

information, the current ayanamsha as per the Surya Sidhanta is not -

24 (minus twenty four) degrees as claimed by Lahirwalas nor about 23

degrees as claimed by Shakuntala Devi but +47 (plus forty seven)

degrees!

And for your further information, these very " trimshat kritva... "

shlokas have been quoted by Narada Rishi (sic!) in Narada Purana,

which is supposed to be an authority for " Vedic astrologers " but

Gita Press Hindi translator/commentator has interpreted those very

shlokas in such a manner as to make the ayanamsha equal to that of

Lahiri! I am keeping my fingers crossed as to whether it was because

of the lack of knowledge of Sanskrit as well astronomy, or because of

his ulterior motives to propagate " Vedic astrology " with Lahiri

Ayanamsha that the " Narada Rishi " as well as the Gita Press

translator of Narada Purana had to resort to such a clumsy

interpolation of the sholkas which are already interpolated in a

different work! Maybe you will be able to enlighten me about that

also!

BTW, I did not expect anything else---except interpolating already

interpolated shlokas---from " Vedic jyotishis " to prove their

nirayana, esecailly the Lahiri jyotisha!

Then coming to Aryabhati, which carries a ditto copy of the

fundamental arguments of the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika, that

work also is conspicuously silent about any such phenomenon like

ayanamsha or precession just because poor Aryabhata too had no idea

about it!

Brahma Sphuta Sidhanta, Shishyadhivridhida etc. etc. also are sailing

in the same boat!

Some of the Sidhantas have even talked of Mesha Rashi as Madhava and

Makara as Tapah!

Will you now, for the sake of removing " Shree Kauljee's inaccurate

knowledge " tell me exactly as to which ancient Hindu astronomer,

prior to Munjala's Laghumanasa (around 10th century AD), has

discussed even obliquely anything about ayanamsha on the shoulders of

precession?

Ayanamsha is actually a myth created by confused Hindu jyotishis of

the past(who call themselves Vedic jyotishis these days!) to try to

bridge the gap between the calculated positions of the Sun/Moon of

the Surya Sidhanta and the observed positions!

As clarified several times, Surya Sidhanta is based on Greek

astrology, which affiliated itself to twelve (unequal!)

constellations of the name of Aries, Taurus etc. wrongly and at the

same time to seasons! The SS also has repeated time and again " Bhanor

Makar Sankranteh shanmasa uttarayanam, karkyades tathaiva syat

shanmasa dakshinayanam " i.e. " With the ingress into Makara Rashi, the

six months of Uttarayana start whereas with the ingress of the sun

into Karkata Rashi, the six months of Dakshianayana start " . The same

SS has also said that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year

and Karkata Sanknranti the longest day of the year! That means it is

talking of a seasonal solar year whch is known as Tropical Solar

year! But the duration of a year, as per calculations of the same SS

are more by 3.5 seconds even than a sidereal year i.e more by about

21 minutes from the Vedic solar year! That is exactly what created

confusion among jyotishis!

Since the SS was supposed to have been revealed by Surya Bhagwan, its

calculations could not be wrong---that is what " HIndu astronomers " of

the past felt. And that is why they made all the efforts to bridge

the gap between the calculated Makara/Mesha/Karkata/Tula Sankranti

and the observed ones by dint of " beeja corrections " which became

later known as Ayanamsha!

That is what confused poor Varahamihira as well! And that is why

there can never be any reconciliation of any astronomical data with

any " Hindu sidhanta " in spite of using zillions of Ayanamshas!

That is a sad fact which has to be admitted by the entire Hindu

community and it must come out of the stupor of nirayana myth---or

even sayana myth, for that matter!

Regarding your views, " I have felt that Shree Kauljee wants Tropical

Year and festivals observed based on Tropical Year. He is very

focused. This, and only this, is is his objective " , you are right but

only to some extent. For further clarifications about this point, I

will post a separate mail.

With regards,

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@>

wrote:

>

> Actually, Shree Kauljee's inaccurate knowledge of the history of

> precession among Ancient Hindu Astronomers causes a lot of

confusion.

>

> His intention to bring Makar Samkranti , presently observed on Jan

14

> to Dec. 21 has to be clearly spelt out. Dec. 21 is Uttarayana , and

it

> should be said so explicitly. Why talk about Makar Samkranti when

the

> sideral Makar Samkranti is not there on Jan 14.

>

> Secondly, the arbitrary selection of Ayanamshas by various people

> including Smt Shakuntala Devi - has also caused confusion. They

should

> have been using precession from 57 BC and not like Xtian calendar of

> 325 AD whose purpose was entirely different which suited the needs

of

> the Pope and celebration of Easter. So, we see here that even those

> claiming to be devout Hindua ( Vedic Astrologers ) are falling into

> Xtian Path.

>

> I have felt that Shree Kauljee wants Tropical Year and festivals

> observed based on Tropical Year. He is very focused. This, and only

> this, is is his objective.

>

> If every one gives sufficient thought and write his or her comments

in

> brief then others can follow. Long postings are not helpful and

often

> misleading.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Anand M. Sharan

>

> hinducivilization , " Bhalchandra Thattey "

> <tobhalgt@> wrote:

> >

> > Kindly enlighten us on CHALDEAN. What was their country and where?

> >

> > On 1/2/09, sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@> wrote:

> > >

--- End forwarded message ---

January 7, 2009

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dr. Anand M. Sharanji,

Namaskar!

< We all know that equinox shifted from Aries to Pisces in 57 BC. >

You are really making a fool of yourself by such statemnts since

equinox did not shift from Aries astrological sign to Pisces

astrological sign but from Greek constellation Aries into Greek

constellation Pisces in around 61 BC and not 57 BC. Don't you know

even that much of astronomy that the Equinoxes or Solstices do not

shift into astrological signs of twelve imaginary equal divisions

since they are actually non-existent! Do you want me to teach you

like a school master even that much of rudimentary astronomy?

Let me do even that: If by Aries you mean Western astrologial sign

then you must also know that the Vernal Equinox is known as First

point of Aries because that is the start of the Western astrological

Rashi Aries -- it was so 2000 years back and will remain so even 2000

years after today! So what do you mean by " equinox shifted from

Aries to Pisces " ?

If by Aries you mean the so called Nirayana Mesha Rashi, then you

have to define as to where-from that Mesha Rashi starts/started and

and where it will end or ended and why! In other words, you have to

posit and prove an imaginary Ayanamsha to establish the veracity of

your choice Ayanamsha!

Though, according to you, like all the " Vedic astrologers " , Surya

Sidhanta is so called nirayana, but even then the Vernal Equinox was

in Aries at the time of the start of Satya Yuga/Tretayuga/Dwaparayuga

and even Kaliyuga and will remain so till the doomsday according to

the same Surya Sidhanta! But then that is exactly what Grecho-

Chaldean astrologers said in the past and what Western astrologers

are saying today! So what is the difference between the so called

nirayana and the so called sayana, actualy the so called

Western/Greek and the so called Indian Rashis as per the Surya

Sidhanta? Absolutely none! And that is why I say that the Surya

Sidhanta Rashis are a ditto copy of Grecho-Chaldean astrology!

Thus whichever way you look at it, you are confronted by the most

unpleasant fact that you are advocating Greco-Chaldean astrology on

the shoulders of Vikrami Era and " Guputa Era astronomers " .

It is also evident that you are absolutely bereft of any knowledge of

the Vedic lore or the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. because you do not even

know that in India the Solstices and Equinoxes were said to be

shifting from one nakshatra to another and not one so called nirayana

or so called sayana rashi to another! Pl. do read some Vedic

literature first and then enter into discussion.

On second thoughts, let me teach you some Vedic astronomy also like a

school master: It has been said in the Vedas, " krittikasu agnim

adadeeta... " i.e. " One must get consecrated in Krittikas, because

the krittikas never deviate from the East, though all the other

nakshatras do deviate " . It means the Vernal Equinox was in Krittika

nakshatra division at that time and that was in about 3000 BCE.

The VJ has said that the Winter Solstice (Uttarayana), the month of

Tapah and Magha start on one and the same date when the sun and the

moon are conjunct in Dhanishta. That was so around 1400 BCE and the

Witer Solstice was in exact conjunction with that nakshatra then!

So pl. do shift your gears from Greek constllations to Bharatiya

nakshatras!

<First of all, if, as you say, Burgess meant on page 120 - Bhaskara

II who was around 1114 AD ( Burgess does not explicitly say which

Bhaskara I or II ) , as opposed to Bhaskara I ( 600 AD ), then how

come Vikram Era was in use much before Bhaskara II's time ?>

For God's sake, my dear " scholar " , do read Burgess translation in

full! He has said it himself that all the ancient Indian astrologer

including Brahmagupta were unaware about any precession! Then the

details of the calculations of precession that he has quoted are from

Sidhanta Shiromani, which is certainly a work of Bhaskara-II and not

Bhaskara-I! But then I must not forget that you are discussing those

very sidhantas about which you have no knowledge!

I have also demonstrated to you in as detailed a manner as possible

as to how the shlokas of the Surya Sidhanta regarding the Ayanamsha

are absolutely wrong and an interpolation of a much later date. Even

Burgess has said the same thing! Why are you putting your ignorance

on public display by such statements?

< Do you imply that , it, the Vikram Era starting from 57 BC was the

deed of Grecho-Chaldeans in India ?>

Why are you trying to ascribe such statements to me as I never

intended? Even the Saha Calendar Reform Committee Report is not sure

as to when Vikrami Era started actually and who started it but it is

a much later " invention " than your cherished " Gupta era " ---omething

like Kali Era having been calculated by back calculations of

imaginary zero longitudes of all the planets!

I agree with you that you do not preent half-truths but you want that

we must recognize complete untruths as truths like the topsy-turvy

Surya Sidhanta Ayanamsha being the corret one!

<Pl answer one and simple one question:

Should the Ayanamsha calculation of horoscopes refer back to 57 BC as

the beginning of Aries ?>

You are again harping on the same tune, in spite of the fact that I

have apprised you about my views several times that as far as the

real Hindu calendar goes, there is absolutely no need of any rashi

whether the so called sayana or the so called nirayana and therefore,

no Ayanamsha mess.

And what Ayanamsha which astrologer should use, that question can be

answered only by " Vedic astrologers " themselves.

Dhanyavad.

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@>

wrote:

>

> Shree Kauljee:

>

> Thanks for your posting. I have mentioned two

> simultaneious things - ( 1 ) Burgess's statements on Page 120 which

> is after the pages 117, and 119 that you are citing.and Vikram Era

> Beginning in 57 BC.

>

> We all know that equinox shifted from Aries to Pisces in 57 BC.

>

> First of all, if, as you say, Burgess meant on page 120 - Bhaskara

> II who was around 1114 AD ( Burgess does not explicitly say which

> Bhaskara I or II ) , as opposed to Bhaskara I ( 600 AD ), then how

> come Vikram Era was in use much before Bhaskara II's time ?

>

> Do you imply that , it, the Vikram Era starting from 57 BC was the

> deed of Grecho-Chaldeans in India ?

>

> I would not have posted a part of page 120 which comes after pages

> 117 or 119 that you are mentioning - without added evidence of the

> starting of Vikram Era in 57 BC. I do not present half truths, if

you

> are implying that.

>

> Pl answer one and simple one question:

>

> Should the Ayanamsha calculation of horoscopes refer back to 57 BC

as

> the beginning of Aries ?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Anand M. Sharan

>

> -- In hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Dr. Anand M.Sharanji,

> > Namaskar!

> > <I have mentioned several times to you but some how - you do not

> pay

> > attention to the facts which contradict your thinking about the

> > knowledge of precession by our Hindus which even a Xtian

Missionary

> > admits here.>

> > The most unfortunat thing with a scholar like you is to go on

> arguing

> > about a work which he has not read himself at all, as per his own

> > admission! But then that is the real scholarship, to twist some

> > paragraph out of context of that very work that he has not read

at

> > all just to confuse everybody and to prove his unprovable stands!

> >

> > I had informed you already that I do a lot of homework before

> > replying any post since for me it is immaterial as to who is

saying

> > what but what is material is as to whether those statements are

> > correct or not! And that is why it takes me a lot of time to

reply

> > any post, which has any technical points (since, as a matter of

> > principle, I ignore any personal comments, including the ones

that

> I

> > am a Xtian or a Muslim convert and what not!)

> >

> > Why have you not quoted the following words of the same " Xtian

> > Missionary " about the knowledge of Ayanamsha/precession of

ancient

> > Indian astronomers from the same work, which you are arguing

about

> > without even having read it! Pl. open your eyes and ears and

read

> > the following statement very very carefully, " Nothing could well

be

> > more awkward and confused than this mode of stating the important

> > fact of the precession of the equinoxes, of describing its method

> and

> > rate, and of directing how its amount at any time is to be

found " .

> > Those are the comments of the same Brugess on page 114 of the

same

> > Surya Sidhanta that you are talking about!

> >

> > Further on page 117, this is what Burgess has said, " We have

> already

> > above (under ii 28) hinted our suspicion that the phenomenon of

> > precession was made no account of in the original composition of

> the

> > Surya Sidhanta, and that the notice taken of it by the treatise

as

> it

> > is at present is an afterthought: we will now proceed to expose

the

> > grounds of those supsicions.

> > " It is, in the first place, upon record that some of the earliest

> > Hindu astronomers were ignorant of, or ignored, the periodical

> motion

> > of the quinoxes; Brahmagupta himself is mentioned among those

whose

> > systems took no account of it; it is, then, not at all impossible

> > that the Surya Sidhanta, if an ancient work, may originally have

> done

> > the same (i.e. ignored precession). Among the positive evidence

to

> > that effect (i.e. being ignorant of precession) we would first

> > direct attention to the significant fact that if the verses at

the

> > head of this note were expunged, there would not be found, in the

> > whole body of the treatise besides, a single hint of the

> > precession....It (introduction of precession) has much more the

> > aspect of an afterthought, a correction found necessary at a

date

> > subsequent to the original composition, and therefore inserted,

> with

> > orders to 'apply it wherever it is required'.....It appears to us

> > even to admit of question whether the adoption of sidereal year

as

> > the unit of time does not imply a failure to recognize the fact

> that

> > the equinox was variable....The system having been first

> constructed

> > on the assumption of the equality of tropical and sidereal years,

> > when it began later to appear, too plainly to be disregarded,

that

> > the equinox had changed its place, the question was how to

> introduce

> > the new element " pages 117-18

> > This is how the " Xtian Missionary " has summarized his own views

> about

> > the knowledge (actually the lack of knowledge!) of precession in

> the

> > Surya Sidhanta on page 119, " There seems, accordingly, sufficient

> > ground for suspecting that in the Surya Sidhanta, as originally

> > constituted, no account was taken of the precession, that its

> > recognition is a later interpolation " .

> >

> > Now if you still want to go by the Surya Sidhanta " rate of

> > precession " let me explain to you your cherished ayanamsha as on

> date:

> > Ayanamsha, as per the SS, was zero at the start of Kaliyuga i.e.

> > February 18, 3102 BCE. As per the same SS, the Vernal Equinox

> > librates/oscillates (sic!)---as against being unidirectional

> actually-

> > --between 27 degrees plus and 27 degrees minus at the rate of 54

> arc

> > seconds per year. Thus it completes one-side of

> > oscillation/libration in 1800 years. As such, it was + (plus) 27

> > degrees in 3102 BCE + 1800 yrs = 1302 BCE. It started

oscillating,

> > as such, towards zero degrees from that date and was again zero

in

> > 1302 BCE (i.e. -1301 AD) + 1800 yrs = 499 AD. That is why Dr.

> Raman

> > used to say that as per the SS, 499 AD was the zero year instead

of

> > 285 AD of Lahiri! That can also be said to be the approximate

date

> of

> > composition of the current Surya Sidhanta available in the market

> at

> > present.

> > Since that date for another 1800 yrs. i.e. upto 499 + 1800 = 2299

> AD

> > it will go on increasing (instead of decreasing as per Lahirwalas

> and

> > Ramanawalas and even you!) up to 27 degrees. Therefore, as on

date

> > i.e. around February 18, 2009 the Surya Sidhanta Ayanamsha will

be

> > 2009 minus 499 = 1510 (yrs) multiplied by 54 arcseconds = 81540

> > arcseconds i.e. 22 degrees 39 minutes plus (and not minus) which

> > means it is away by about 24 plus 22.6 = 46.6 degrees from Lahiri

> > Ayanamsha!

> > I hope you will not now hanker after Surya Sidhanta Ayanamsha!

> >

> > Since no other Sidhanta, till the time of Munjala's Karnagrantha

> viz.

> > Laghumanasa has talked anything even by mistake about any

> Ayanamsha,

> > obviously, they were unaware of that important phenomenon, and as

> > such, unaware of any difference between sidereal year and

tropical

> > year or the so called nirayana and sayana myth! That is what

> Alberuni

> > has lamented in his Alberuni's India that Varahamihira was an

> > ignorant fool that he had failed to see the difference due to

> > precession in his Brihat Samhita!

> >

> > <Ayanamshas which you rightly criticize to be unsound but when

> > presented with correct evidence ( 57 BC as a reference point in

> time

> > for Ayanamsha by Gupta Era Astronomers/Jyotishis )you start

calling

> > it far fetched. How contradictory you can be ?>

> >

> > Since I have proved it beyond all the reasonable doubts above

> > that " ancient Indian astronomers " did not know anything about

> > precession/ayanamsha, your " correct evidence " is anything but

> correct

> > and therefore no evidence at all. On the other hand, it goes

> against

> > the very grain of your wishful thinking of presuming that some

> Gupta

> > Era Indian astronomer had located the VE in some Mesha Rashi in

57

> > BCE, when it was actually in the Greek constellation Aries around

> > that time, and it was declared so by Hipparchus the Greek

> astronomer,

> > before hand, and not any Gupta Era astronomer! In other words,

you

> > are advocating Grecho-Chaldean astrology yourself on the

shoulders

> > of " Gupta Era astronomers " .

> > Regarding the statement of Burgess on page 120 of his work, which

> you

> > have quoted so fondly without verifying the facts, he is talking

> > about a post Bhaskara-II era, which he has discussed on page 119

in

> > the following words, " Bhaskara teaches the complete revolution of

> > equinoxes, giving the number of revolutions in an Aeon (of

> > 4,320,000,000 years) as 199,699; this makes the time of a single

> > revolution to be 21,635,8073 year, and the yearly rate of

> precession

> > 59 " .9007. " .

> > It is in regard to that rate of precession of 59 " .9 by Bhasskara

> vis-

> > a-vis the rate of precession of Hipparchus of 36 " a year that

> Burgess

> > has commented thus! And Bhaskara-II was an astronomer of 12th

> century

> > AD, and he has referred to Munjala's Ayanamsha in his Sidhanta

> > Shiromani! I hope, against hope, that you know that Munjala had

> > given a rate of Ayanamsha as 60 arc seconds per year in his

> > Laghumanasa---and Munjala was an astronomer of 10th century AD.

> And

> > it is actually the same Ayanamsha that Bhaskara-II has discussed!

> >

> > I hope (against hope, though!) you will now revise your baseless

> > assumptions which are without any shred of evidence that it was

> some

> > Gupta astronomer who had calculated Vikrami Era by dint of the

> > precession of Vernal Equinox!

> > The last laugh about your theory is that the VE did not enter

into

> > Aries constellation in around 58 BCE but it left that

constellation

> > and entered into Pisces constellation then! And it is that very

> > Pisces constellation which is known as Pisces astrological sign

in

> > Grecho-Chaldean astrology! The VE was in almost exact

conjunction

> > with Zeta Piscium in the first centuries of Christian Era!

> > Thanks for giving me an opportunity to show as to how baseless

your

> > theories and the theories of nirayana-walas (or even the so

called

> > sayana-walas, for that matter!)are.

> > A K Kaul

> >

> > hinducivilization , " amsharanx "

<amsharanx@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Shree Kauljee:

> > >

> > > I have the paragraph stating the knowledge of

> > > precession by Ancient Hindus at the following website:

> > >

> > > http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/PRECESSION/HINDUS.pdf

> > >

> > > I have mentioned several times to you but some how - you do not

> pay

> > > attention to the facts which contradict your thinking about the

> > > knowledge of precession by our Hindus which even a Xtian

> Missionary

> > > admits here.

> > >

> > > You have been criticizing the Vedic Jyotishis for having all

> kinds

> > of

> > > Ayanamshas which you rightly criticize to be unsound but when

> > > presented with correct evidence ( 57 BC as a reference point in

> > time

> > > for Ayanamsha by Gupta Era Astronomers/Jyotishis )you start

> calling

> > > it far fetched. How contradictory you can be ?

> > >

> > > This evidence correctly points to the fact that the Modern

Hindus

> > > which include Vedic Jyotishis have lost the ancient and more

> > accurate

> > > knowledge the ancient astronomers /jyotishis had.

> > >

> > > Just knowing Sanskrit is not enough.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > Anand M. Sharan

> > >

> > > hinducivilization , " amsharanx "

> <amsharanx@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Shree Kauljee:

> > > >

> > > > I quoted from the book by Burgess including the actual words

> from

> > > the

> > > > paragraphs, page number , publications etc. You never

responded

> > to

> > > > that. You are most welcome to refer to the book again.

> > > >

> > > > Most of the North India uses the Vikram Samvat. How can you

> deny

> > > the

> > > > truth behind setting up of this calendar ?

> > > >

> > > > Pl check again.

> > > >

> > > > In summary, the very existence of this calendar shows the

> > knowledge

> > > > of precession by astronomers of the Gupta Period.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Anand M. Sharan

> > > >

> > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen

Kaul "

> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Dr. Anand M. Sharan,

> > > > > Namaskar!

> > > > > Your post is very interesting, especially the following

> > > > > comment, " Actually, Shree Kauljee's inaccurate knowledge of

> the

> > > > > history of precession among Ancient Hindu Astronomers

causes

> a

> > > lot

> > > > > of confusion. "

> > > > > In one of your posts you had yourself said that you have

not

> > read

> > > > any

> > > > > of the sidhantas and as such, cannot quote the exact

shlokas

> > from

> > > > any

> > > > > of the sidhanta, which talks of precession! Then in one of

> > your

> > > > > another posts you had quoted chapter and verse from

Burgess'

> > > > > translation about the accuray of Hindu astronomers in

having

> > > > > determined the rate of precession correctly!

> > > > >

> > > > > However, unlike you, I have read quite a few sidhants,

> > especially

> > > > the

> > > > > Surya Sidhanta with Sanskrit commentary " Sudha Varshini " by

> Pt.

> > > > > Sudhakar Dwivedi, Hindi commentary by Mahavir Prasad

> Shrivastav

> > > and

> > > > > of course, the world famous Burgess translation! All the

> > > > > commentators have declared unequivocally that Maya the

> mlechha

> > > had

> > > > > absolutely no knowledge of precession. On the other hand,

> > > > the " world

> > > > > famous " shlokas " trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... " of the SS

> are

> > an

> > > > > interpolation of a much later date of about tenth century

> AD!

> > > That

> > > > > also has been admitted by all the comentators! If you take

> > these

> > > > > shlokas, which are supposed to be referring to

> > > precession/ayanamsha

> > > > > as authentic and from the original Surya Sidhanta, then for

> > your

> > > > > information, the current ayanamsha as per the Surya

Sidhanta

> is

> > > > not -

> > > > > 24 (minus twenty four) degrees as claimed by Lahirwalas nor

> > about

> > > > 23

> > > > > degrees as claimed by Shakuntala Devi but +47 (plus forty

> > seven)

> > > > > degrees!

> > > > > And for your further information, these very " trimshat

> > kritva... "

> > > > > shlokas have been quoted by Narada Rishi (sic!) in Narada

> > Purana,

> > > > > which is supposed to be an authority for " Vedic

astrologers "

> > but

> > > > > Gita Press Hindi translator/commentator has interpreted

those

> > > very

> > > > > shlokas in such a manner as to make the ayanamsha equal to

> that

> > > of

> > > > > Lahiri! I am keeping my fingers crossed as to whether it

was

> > > > because

> > > > > of the lack of knowledge of Sanskrit as well astronomy, or

> > > because

> > > > of

> > > > > his ulterior motives to propagate " Vedic astrology " with

> Lahiri

> > > > > Ayanamsha that the " Narada Rishi " as well as the Gita Press

> > > > > translator of Narada Purana had to resort to such a clumsy

> > > > > interpolation of the sholkas which are already interpolated

> in

> > a

> > > > > different work! Maybe you will be able to enlighten me

about

> > > that

> > > > > also!

> > > > > BTW, I did not expect anything else---except interpolating

> > > already

> > > > > interpolated shlokas---from " Vedic jyotishis " to prove

their

> > > > > nirayana, esecailly the Lahiri jyotisha!

> > > > > Then coming to Aryabhati, which carries a ditto copy of the

> > > > > fundamental arguments of the Surya Sidhanta of

> > Panchasidhantika,

> > > > that

> > > > > work also is conspicuously silent about any such phenomenon

> > like

> > > > > ayanamsha or precession just because poor Aryabhata too had

> no

> > > idea

> > > > > about it!

> > > > > Brahma Sphuta Sidhanta, Shishyadhivridhida etc. etc. also

are

> > > > sailing

> > > > > in the same boat!

> > > > > Some of the Sidhantas have even talked of Mesha Rashi as

> > Madhava

> > > > and

> > > > > Makara as Tapah!

> > > > > Will you now, for the sake of removing " Shree Kauljee's

> > > inaccurate

> > > > > knowledge " tell me exactly as to which ancient Hindu

> > astronomer,

> > > > > prior to Munjala's Laghumanasa (around 10th century AD),

has

> > > > > discussed even obliquely anything about ayanamsha on the

> > > shoulders

> > > > of

> > > > > precession?

> > > > > Ayanamsha is actually a myth created by confused Hindu

> > jyotishis

> > > of

> > > > > the past(who call themselves Vedic jyotishis these days!)

to

> > try

> > > to

> > > > > bridge the gap between the calculated positions of the

> Sun/Moon

> > > of

> > > > > the Surya Sidhanta and the observed positions!

> > > > > As clarified several times, Surya Sidhanta is based on

Greek

> > > > > astrology, which affiliated itself to twelve (unequal!)

> > > > > constellations of the name of Aries, Taurus etc. wrongly

and

> at

> > > the

> > > > > same time to seasons! The SS also has repeated time and

> > > > again " Bhanor

> > > > > Makar Sankranteh shanmasa uttarayanam, karkyades tathaiva

> syat

> > > > > shanmasa dakshinayanam " i.e. " With the ingress into Makara

> > Rashi,

> > > > the

> > > > > six months of Uttarayana start whereas with the ingress of

> the

> > > sun

> > > > > into Karkata Rashi, the six months of Dakshianayana

start " .

> > The

> > > > same

> > > > > SS has also said that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day

of

> > the

> > > > year

> > > > > and Karkata Sanknranti the longest day of the year! That

> means

> > > it

> > > > is

> > > > > talking of a seasonal solar year whch is known as Tropical

> > Solar

> > > > > year! But the duration of a year, as per calculations of

the

> > > same

> > > > SS

> > > > > are more by 3.5 seconds even than a sidereal year i.e more

by

> > > about

> > > > > 21 minutes from the Vedic solar year! That is exactly

what

> > > > created

> > > > > confusion among jyotishis!

> > > > > Since the SS was supposed to have been revealed by Surya

> > Bhagwan,

> > > > its

> > > > > calculations could not be wrong---that is what " HIndu

> > > astronomers "

> > > > of

> > > > > the past felt. And that is why they made all the efforts

to

> > > bridge

> > > > > the gap between the calculated Makara/Mesha/Karkata/Tula

> > > Sankranti

> > > > > and the observed ones by dint of " beeja corrections " which

> > became

> > > > > later known as Ayanamsha!

> > > > > That is what confused poor Varahamihira as well! And that

is

> > why

> > > > > there can never be any reconciliation of any astronomical

> data

> > > with

> > > > > any " Hindu sidhanta " in spite of using zillions of

Ayanamshas!

> > > > > That is a sad fact which has to be admitted by the entire

> Hindu

> > > > > community and it must come out of the stupor of nirayana

myth-

> --

> > > or

> > > > > even sayana myth, for that matter!

> > > > > Regarding your views, " I have felt that Shree Kauljee wants

> > > > Tropical

> > > > > Year and festivals observed based on Tropical Year. He is

> very

> > > > > focused. This, and only this, is is his objective " , you are

> > right

> > > > but

> > > > > only to some extent. For further clarifications about this

> > > point,

> > > > I

> > > > > will post a separate mail.

> > > > > With regards,

> > > > > A K Kaul

> > > > >

> > > > > hinducivilization , " amsharanx "

> > > <amsharanx@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually, Shree Kauljee's inaccurate knowledge of the

> history

> > of

> > > > > > precession among Ancient Hindu Astronomers causes a lot

of

> > > > > confusion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > His intention to bring Makar Samkranti , presently

observed

> > on

> > > > Jan

> > > > > 14

> > > > > > to Dec. 21 has to be clearly spelt out. Dec. 21 is

> > Uttarayana ,

> > > > and

> > > > > it

> > > > > > should be said so explicitly. Why talk about Makar

> Samkranti

> > > when

> > > > > the

> > > > > > sideral Makar Samkranti is not there on Jan 14.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Secondly, the arbitrary selection of Ayanamshas by

various

> > > people

> > > > > > including Smt Shakuntala Devi - has also caused

confusion.

> > They

> > > > > should

> > > > > > have been using precession from 57 BC and not like Xtian

> > > calendar

> > > > of

> > > > > > 325 AD whose purpose was entirely different which suited

> the

> > > > needs

> > > > > of

> > > > > > the Pope and celebration of Easter. So, we see here that

> even

> > > > those

> > > > > > claiming to be devout Hindua ( Vedic Astrologers ) are

> > falling

> > > > into

> > > > > > Xtian Path.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have felt that Shree Kauljee wants Tropical Year and

> > festivals

> > > > > > observed based on Tropical Year. He is very focused.

This,

> > and

> > > > only

> > > > > > this, is is his objective.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If every one gives sufficient thought and write his or

her

> > > > comments

> > > > > in

> > > > > > brief then others can follow. Long postings are not

helpful

> > and

> > > > > often

> > > > > > misleading.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anand M. Sharan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > hinducivilization , " Bhalchandra

> > Thattey "

> > > > > > <tobhalgt@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kindly enlighten us on CHALDEAN. What was their country

> and

> > > > where?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On 1/2/09, sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

--- End forwarded message ---

January 7, 2009

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dr. Anand M.Sharanji,

Namaskar!

<I have mentioned several times to you but some how - you do not pay

attention to the facts which contradict your thinking about the

knowledge of precession by our Hindus which even a Xtian Missionary

admits here.>

The most unfortunat thing with a scholar like you is to go on arguing

about a work which he has not read himself at all, as per his own

admission! But then that is the real scholarship, to twist some

paragraph out of context of that very work that he has not read at

all just to confuse everybody and to prove his unprovable stands!

I had informed you already that I do a lot of homework before

replying any post since for me it is immaterial as to who is saying

what but what is material is as to whether those statements are

correct or not! And that is why it takes me a lot of time to reply

any post, which has any technical points (since, as a matter of

principle, I ignore any personal comments, including the ones that I

am a Xtian or a Muslim convert and what not!)

Why have you not quoted the following words of the same " Xtian

Missionary " about the knowledge of Ayanamsha/precession of ancient

Indian astronomers from the same work, which you are arguing about

without even having read it! Pl. open your eyes and ears and read

the following statement very very carefully, " Nothing could well be

more awkward and confused than this mode of stating the important

fact of the precession of the equinoxes, of describing its method and

rate, and of directing how its amount at any time is to be found " .

Those are the comments of the same Brugess on page 114 of the same

Surya Sidhanta that you are talking about!

Further on page 117, this is what Burgess has said, " We have already

above (under ii 28) hinted our suspicion that the phenomenon of

precession was made no account of in the original composition of the

Surya Sidhanta, and that the notice taken of it by the treatise as it

is at present is an afterthought: we will now proceed to expose the

grounds of those supsicions.

" It is, in the first place, upon record that some of the earliest

Hindu astronomers were ignorant of, or ignored, the periodical motion

of the quinoxes; Brahmagupta himself is mentioned among those whose

systems took no account of it; it is, then, not at all impossible

that the Surya Sidhanta, if an ancient work, may originally have done

the same (i.e. ignored precession). Among the positive evidence to

that effect (i.e. being ignorant of precession) we would first

direct attention to the significant fact that if the verses at the

head of this note were expunged, there would not be found, in the

whole body of the treatise besides, a single hint of the

precession....It (introduction of precession) has much more the

aspect of an afterthought, a correction found necessary at a date

subsequent to the original composition, and therefore inserted, with

orders to 'apply it wherever it is required'.....It appears to us

even to admit of question whether the adoption of sidereal year as

the unit of time does not imply a failure to recognize the fact that

the equinox was variable....The system having been first constructed

on the assumption of the equality of tropical and sidereal years,

when it began later to appear, too plainly to be disregarded, that

the equinox had changed its place, the question was how to introduce

the new element " pages 117-18

This is how the " Xtian Missionary " has summarized his own views about

the knowledge (actually the lack of knowledge!) of precession in the

Surya Sidhanta on page 119, " There seems, accordingly, sufficient

ground for suspecting that in the Surya Sidhanta, as originally

constituted, no account was taken of the precession, that its

recognition is a later interpolation " .

Now if you still want to go by the Surya Sidhanta " rate of

precession " let me explain to you your cherished ayanamsha as on date:

Ayanamsha, as per the SS, was zero at the start of Kaliyuga i.e.

February 18, 3102 BCE. As per the same SS, the Vernal Equinox

librates/oscillates (sic!)---as against being unidirectional actually-

--between 27 degrees plus and 27 degrees minus at the rate of 54 arc

seconds per year. Thus it completes one-side of

oscillation/libration in 1800 years. As such, it was + (plus) 27

degrees in 3102 BCE + 1800 yrs = 1302 BCE. It started oscillating,

as such, towards zero degrees from that date and was again zero in

1302 BCE (i.e. -1301 AD) + 1800 yrs = 499 AD. That is why Dr. Raman

used to say that as per the SS, 499 AD was the zero year instead of

285 AD of Lahiri! That can also be said to be the approximate date of

composition of the current Surya Sidhanta available in the market at

present.

Since that date for another 1800 yrs. i.e. upto 499 + 1800 = 2299 AD

it will go on increasing (instead of decreasing as per Lahirwalas and

Ramanawalas and even you!) up to 27 degrees. Therefore, as on date

i.e. around February 18, 2009 the Surya Sidhanta Ayanamsha will be

2009 minus 499 = 1510 (yrs) multiplied by 54 arcseconds = 81540

arcseconds i.e. 22 degrees 39 minutes plus (and not minus) which

means it is away by about 24 plus 22.6 = 46.6 degrees from Lahiri

Ayanamsha!

I hope you will not now hanker after Surya Sidhanta Ayanamsha!

Since no other Sidhanta, till the time of Munjala's Karnagrantha viz.

Laghumanasa has talked anything even by mistake about any Ayanamsha,

obviously, they were unaware of that important phenomenon, and as

such, unaware of any difference between sidereal year and tropical

year or the so called nirayana and sayana myth! That is what Alberuni

has lamented in his Alberuni's India that Varahamihira was an

ignorant fool that he had failed to see the difference due to

precession in his Brihat Samhita!

<Ayanamshas which you rightly criticize to be unsound but when

presented with correct evidence ( 57 BC as a reference point in time

for Ayanamsha by Gupta Era Astronomers/Jyotishis )you start calling

it far fetched. How contradictory you can be ?>

Since I have proved it beyond all the reasonable doubts above

that " ancient Indian astronomers " did not know anything about

precession/ayanamsha, your " correct evidence " is anything but correct

and therefore no evidence at all. On the other hand, it goes against

the very grain of your wishful thinking of presuming that some Gupta

Era Indian astronomer had located the VE in some Mesha Rashi in 57

BCE, when it was actually in the Greek constellation Aries around

that time, and it was declared so by Hipparchus the Greek astronomer,

before hand, and not any Gupta Era astronomer! In other words, you

are advocating Grecho-Chaldean astrology yourself on the shoulders

of " Gupta Era astronomers " .

Regarding the statement of Burgess on page 120 of his work, which you

have quoted so fondly without verifying the facts, he is talking

about a post Bhaskara-II era, which he has discussed on page 119 in

the following words, " Bhaskara teaches the complete revolution of

equinoxes, giving the number of revolutions in an Aeon (of

4,320,000,000 years) as 199,699; this makes the time of a single

revolution to be 21,635,8073 year, and the yearly rate of precession

59 " .9007. " .

It is in regard to that rate of precession of 59 " .9 by Bhasskara vis-

a-vis the rate of precession of Hipparchus of 36 " a year that Burgess

has commented thus! And Bhaskara-II was an astronomer of 12th century

AD, and he has referred to Munjala's Ayanamsha in his Sidhanta

Shiromani! I hope, against hope, that you know that Munjala had

given a rate of Ayanamsha as 60 arc seconds per year in his

Laghumanasa---and Munjala was an astronomer of 10th century AD. And

it is actually the same Ayanamsha that Bhaskara-II has discussed!

I hope (against hope, though!) you will now revise your baseless

assumptions which are without any shred of evidence that it was some

Gupta astronomer who had calculated Vikrami Era by dint of the

precession of Vernal Equinox!

The last laugh about your theory is that the VE did not enter into

Aries constellation in around 58 BCE but it left that constellation

and entered into Pisces constellation then! And it is that very

Pisces constellation which is known as Pisces astrological sign in

Grecho-Chaldean astrology! The VE was in almost exact conjunction

with Zeta Piscium in the first centuries of Christian Era!

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to show as to how baseless your

theories and the theories of nirayana-walas (or even the so called

sayana-walas, for that matter!)are.

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@>

wrote:

>

> Shree Kauljee:

>

> I have the paragraph stating the knowledge of

> precession by Ancient Hindus at the following website:

>

> http://www.engr.mun.ca/~asharan/PRECESSION/HINDUS.pdf

>

> I have mentioned several times to you but some how - you do not pay

> attention to the facts which contradict your thinking about the

> knowledge of precession by our Hindus which even a Xtian Missionary

> admits here.

>

> You have been criticizing the Vedic Jyotishis for having all kinds

of

> Ayanamshas which you rightly criticize to be unsound but when

> presented with correct evidence ( 57 BC as a reference point in

time

> for Ayanamsha by Gupta Era Astronomers/Jyotishis )you start calling

> it far fetched. How contradictory you can be ?

>

> This evidence correctly points to the fact that the Modern Hindus

> which include Vedic Jyotishis have lost the ancient and more

accurate

> knowledge the ancient astronomers /jyotishis had.

>

> Just knowing Sanskrit is not enough.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Anand M. Sharan

>

> hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Shree Kauljee:

> >

> > I quoted from the book by Burgess including the actual words from

> the

> > paragraphs, page number , publications etc. You never responded

to

> > that. You are most welcome to refer to the book again.

> >

> > Most of the North India uses the Vikram Samvat. How can you deny

> the

> > truth behind setting up of this calendar ?

> >

> > Pl check again.

> >

> > In summary, the very existence of this calendar shows the

knowledge

> > of precession by astronomers of the Gupta Period.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > Anand M. Sharan

> >

> > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Dr. Anand M. Sharan,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > Your post is very interesting, especially the following

> > > comment, " Actually, Shree Kauljee's inaccurate knowledge of the

> > > history of precession among Ancient Hindu Astronomers causes a

> lot

> > > of confusion. "

> > > In one of your posts you had yourself said that you have not

read

> > any

> > > of the sidhantas and as such, cannot quote the exact shlokas

from

> > any

> > > of the sidhanta, which talks of precession! Then in one of

your

> > > another posts you had quoted chapter and verse from Burgess'

> > > translation about the accuray of Hindu astronomers in having

> > > determined the rate of precession correctly!

> > >

> > > However, unlike you, I have read quite a few sidhants,

especially

> > the

> > > Surya Sidhanta with Sanskrit commentary " Sudha Varshini " by Pt.

> > > Sudhakar Dwivedi, Hindi commentary by Mahavir Prasad Shrivastav

> and

> > > of course, the world famous Burgess translation! All the

> > > commentators have declared unequivocally that Maya the mlechha

> had

> > > absolutely no knowledge of precession. On the other hand,

> > the " world

> > > famous " shlokas " trimshat kritva yuge bhanam... " of the SS are

an

> > > interpolation of a much later date of about tenth century AD!

> That

> > > also has been admitted by all the comentators! If you take

these

> > > shlokas, which are supposed to be referring to

> precession/ayanamsha

> > > as authentic and from the original Surya Sidhanta, then for

your

> > > information, the current ayanamsha as per the Surya Sidhanta is

> > not -

> > > 24 (minus twenty four) degrees as claimed by Lahirwalas nor

about

> > 23

> > > degrees as claimed by Shakuntala Devi but +47 (plus forty

seven)

> > > degrees!

> > > And for your further information, these very " trimshat

kritva... "

> > > shlokas have been quoted by Narada Rishi (sic!) in Narada

Purana,

> > > which is supposed to be an authority for " Vedic astrologers "

but

> > > Gita Press Hindi translator/commentator has interpreted those

> very

> > > shlokas in such a manner as to make the ayanamsha equal to that

> of

> > > Lahiri! I am keeping my fingers crossed as to whether it was

> > because

> > > of the lack of knowledge of Sanskrit as well astronomy, or

> because

> > of

> > > his ulterior motives to propagate " Vedic astrology " with Lahiri

> > > Ayanamsha that the " Narada Rishi " as well as the Gita Press

> > > translator of Narada Purana had to resort to such a clumsy

> > > interpolation of the sholkas which are already interpolated in

a

> > > different work! Maybe you will be able to enlighten me about

> that

> > > also!

> > > BTW, I did not expect anything else---except interpolating

> already

> > > interpolated shlokas---from " Vedic jyotishis " to prove their

> > > nirayana, esecailly the Lahiri jyotisha!

> > > Then coming to Aryabhati, which carries a ditto copy of the

> > > fundamental arguments of the Surya Sidhanta of

Panchasidhantika,

> > that

> > > work also is conspicuously silent about any such phenomenon

like

> > > ayanamsha or precession just because poor Aryabhata too had no

> idea

> > > about it!

> > > Brahma Sphuta Sidhanta, Shishyadhivridhida etc. etc. also are

> > sailing

> > > in the same boat!

> > > Some of the Sidhantas have even talked of Mesha Rashi as

Madhava

> > and

> > > Makara as Tapah!

> > > Will you now, for the sake of removing " Shree Kauljee's

> inaccurate

> > > knowledge " tell me exactly as to which ancient Hindu

astronomer,

> > > prior to Munjala's Laghumanasa (around 10th century AD), has

> > > discussed even obliquely anything about ayanamsha on the

> shoulders

> > of

> > > precession?

> > > Ayanamsha is actually a myth created by confused Hindu

jyotishis

> of

> > > the past(who call themselves Vedic jyotishis these days!) to

try

> to

> > > bridge the gap between the calculated positions of the Sun/Moon

> of

> > > the Surya Sidhanta and the observed positions!

> > > As clarified several times, Surya Sidhanta is based on Greek

> > > astrology, which affiliated itself to twelve (unequal!)

> > > constellations of the name of Aries, Taurus etc. wrongly and at

> the

> > > same time to seasons! The SS also has repeated time and

> > again " Bhanor

> > > Makar Sankranteh shanmasa uttarayanam, karkyades tathaiva syat

> > > shanmasa dakshinayanam " i.e. " With the ingress into Makara

Rashi,

> > the

> > > six months of Uttarayana start whereas with the ingress of the

> sun

> > > into Karkata Rashi, the six months of Dakshianayana start " .

The

> > same

> > > SS has also said that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of

the

> > year

> > > and Karkata Sanknranti the longest day of the year! That means

> it

> > is

> > > talking of a seasonal solar year whch is known as Tropical

Solar

> > > year! But the duration of a year, as per calculations of the

> same

> > SS

> > > are more by 3.5 seconds even than a sidereal year i.e more by

> about

> > > 21 minutes from the Vedic solar year! That is exactly what

> > created

> > > confusion among jyotishis!

> > > Since the SS was supposed to have been revealed by Surya

Bhagwan,

> > its

> > > calculations could not be wrong---that is what " HIndu

> astronomers "

> > of

> > > the past felt. And that is why they made all the efforts to

> bridge

> > > the gap between the calculated Makara/Mesha/Karkata/Tula

> Sankranti

> > > and the observed ones by dint of " beeja corrections " which

became

> > > later known as Ayanamsha!

> > > That is what confused poor Varahamihira as well! And that is

why

> > > there can never be any reconciliation of any astronomical data

> with

> > > any " Hindu sidhanta " in spite of using zillions of Ayanamshas!

> > > That is a sad fact which has to be admitted by the entire Hindu

> > > community and it must come out of the stupor of nirayana myth---

> or

> > > even sayana myth, for that matter!

> > > Regarding your views, " I have felt that Shree Kauljee wants

> > Tropical

> > > Year and festivals observed based on Tropical Year. He is very

> > > focused. This, and only this, is is his objective " , you are

right

> > but

> > > only to some extent. For further clarifications about this

> point,

> > I

> > > will post a separate mail.

> > > With regards,

> > > A K Kaul

> > >

> > > hinducivilization , " amsharanx "

> <amsharanx@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Actually, Shree Kauljee's inaccurate knowledge of the history

of

> > > > precession among Ancient Hindu Astronomers causes a lot of

> > > confusion.

> > > >

> > > > His intention to bring Makar Samkranti , presently observed

on

> > Jan

> > > 14

> > > > to Dec. 21 has to be clearly spelt out. Dec. 21 is

Uttarayana ,

> > and

> > > it

> > > > should be said so explicitly. Why talk about Makar Samkranti

> when

> > > the

> > > > sideral Makar Samkranti is not there on Jan 14.

> > > >

> > > > Secondly, the arbitrary selection of Ayanamshas by various

> people

> > > > including Smt Shakuntala Devi - has also caused confusion.

They

> > > should

> > > > have been using precession from 57 BC and not like Xtian

> calendar

> > of

> > > > 325 AD whose purpose was entirely different which suited the

> > needs

> > > of

> > > > the Pope and celebration of Easter. So, we see here that even

> > those

> > > > claiming to be devout Hindua ( Vedic Astrologers ) are

falling

> > into

> > > > Xtian Path.

> > > >

> > > > I have felt that Shree Kauljee wants Tropical Year and

festivals

> > > > observed based on Tropical Year. He is very focused. This,

and

> > only

> > > > this, is is his objective.

> > > >

> > > > If every one gives sufficient thought and write his or her

> > comments

> > > in

> > > > brief then others can follow. Long postings are not helpful

and

> > > often

> > > > misleading.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Anand M. Sharan

> > > >

> > > > hinducivilization , " Bhalchandra

Thattey "

> > > > <tobhalgt@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Kindly enlighten us on CHALDEAN. What was their country and

> > where?

> > > > >

> > > > > On 1/2/09, sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > >

> >

>

--- End forwarded message ---

January 7, 2009

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dr. Ananda M. Sharanji,

Namaskar!

<Let us stick to the point that we are discussing. The points are: (

1 ) Rashis which, for example, Shakuntala Devi writes about, and (

2 ) Precession of the Equinoxes. Obviously, this precession is about

some thing stationary. >

So the cat is out of the bag after all!

You had started the discussion about precession of equinoxes vis-a-

vis the ancient Indian sidhantas about which you had quoted a " Xtian

Missionary " and rushed after me with all the tongs and hammers at

your command to prove the unprovable myth that some " Gupta Era Indian

astronomers " had back-calculated Vikrami Era by dint of the

methodology of calculating precession from some ancient sidhanta.

It has by now been established by me that till the time of Munjala,

(10th century AD) no Indian astronomer talked about ayanamsha---and

Munjala was actually bridging a gap between the Tropical solar year

of the Surya Sidhanta that it had envisaged and the calculated mess

of that very sidhanta. He too did not have any idea about sidereal

year and Tropical year, either.

Now you are shifting gears and using Shakuntla Devi as crutches!

Anyway, what Shakuntala Devi writes about or not, I am not a party to

that discussion. As such, what she means by " precession is about

something stationary " she only can explain to you. For me Newton's

discussion of precession is more than sufficient.

<What is stationary ? Incidentally, Shakuntala Devi discusses equal

division of each of the Rashis>

As clarified hundreds of times, Mesha etc. Rashis are imaginary

divisions created by Greoch-Chaldean asgtrologers to start with,

which were used later by Surya Sidhanta and other Western

astrologers. Indian astrologers also started using them, thanks to

the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! As such, here also, what

Shakuntala Devi says, I am no party to that discussion because she

also is, after all, a jyotishi in one or the other way and as such,

cannot practise her profession without Mesha etc. rashis!

There is a saying, " If there were no God, we would have to invent

one " . And that is what exactly has been done with Mesha, Vrisha etc.

Rashis---they have been " invented " by jyotishis!

Dhanyavad.

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@>

wrote:

>

> hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Dr. Anand M. Sharanji,

> > Namaskar!

> >

> > < We all know that equinox shifted from Aries to Pisces in 57 BC.

>

> >

> > You are really making a fool of yourself by such statemnts since

> > equinox did not shift from Aries astrological sign to Pisces

> > astrological sign but from Greek constellation Aries into Greek

> > constellation Pisces in around 61 BC and not 57 BC. Don't you

know

> > even that much of astronomy that the Equinoxes or Solstices do

not

> > shift into astrological signs of twelve imaginary equal divisions

> > since they are actually non-existent! Do you want me to teach

you

> > like a school master even that much of rudimentary astronomy?

>

> Let us assume that you are great for a moment, and can teach all of

> us here.

>

> Whether it was 61 BC or 57 BC - does it make all that difference -

> even if you say it was 61 BC ? Let us not digress from the point by

> making such remarks, and remain to the point.

>

> Let us stick to the point that we are discussing. The points are: (

> 1 ) Rashis which, for example, Shakuntala Devi writes about, and (

> 2 ) Precession of the Equinoxes. Obviously, this precession is

about

> some thing stationary.

>

> What is stationary ? Incidentally, Shakuntala Devi discusses equal

> division of each of the Rashis.

>

> We will proceed from this.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Anand M. Sharan

>

--- End forwarded message ---

January 8, 2009

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dr. Anand M. Sharanji,

Namaskar!

Thanks for the post.

<I have a suggestion for you. Kindly consider or accept it as a fact

that Gupta Era Astronomers calculated the precession ( Newtonian

Definition of precession ) approximately equal to 49.421 " . This is

quite close to 49.846 " , if the time period is equal to 26, 000 Year>

I have already discussed the issue of precession throughly in my

earlier posts and proved it conclusively by now that at least till

the time of Munjala i.e. about tenth century AD, no Indian astronomer

had absolutely any idea about ayanamsha.

Secondly, it is extremely doubtful that by Ayanamsha, Munjala had

talked about precession in reality! Same is the case with Bhaskara-

II. He also has confirmed, in his Sidhanta Shiromani, the " beeja

correction " of Munjala with the statement, " It is the same ayanamsha

that Munjala has talked about " . It appears thus that even Bhaskara-II

had no idea about precession.

Munjala was actually trying to bridge the gap between the chasm of

Surya Sidhanta calculated longitudes of the sun and the real

phenomena of SS Makar Sankranti, which had been declared by the same

SS to be another name of the shortest day of the year viz. Uttarayana

(Winter Solstice); and Karka Sankranti as another name of

Dakshinayana (Summer Solstice) and so on. Munjala had found that if,

starting from Shaka 444 i.e. 522 AD, one arc minute (sixty arc-

seconds) per year were added to the Surya Sidhanta calculated

longitudes of the sun, it would coincide exactly with the real

phenomena of Uttarayana etc. Most probably, that is why he named it

as Ayanamsha---the number of degrees from which Uttarayana/Dakshinaya

was ahead from the calculated values of the Surya Sidhanta.

We also hear about " ayanamsha " word for the first time in Munjala's

Laghumanasa.

The zero ayanamsha year of Munjala is therefore, neither 399 AD, as

presumed by interpolated shlokas of Ayanamsha in the SS, nor 285 AD

as presumed by Lahiriwalas nor 57 BC etc. Shaka 444 (522 AD) is thus

a back-calculated year when the calculated longitudes of the SS sun

and the actual phenomena could have tallied exactly.

That is why Munjala advised the ayanamsha to be added to the Surya

Sidhanta longitudes, to make them tally with the exact phenomena.

And that is exactly opposite to what today's " Vedic astrologers " are

doing---subtracting ayanamsha from the actual visible phenomena to

make them equal to Surya Sidhanta---now a days " almighty " Lahiri

longitudes, thanks to Ganesha Daivajnya's most irrational astronoical

work viz. Grahalaghava!

Judging from his Laghumanasa, it is a certainty that Munjala had

absolutely no idea of any sidereal year and tropical year differences

and therefore no idea about so called nirayana/sayana mess.

It is a much later development, maybe post Ganesha Daivajnya

(sixteenth century AD) to peg Ayanamsha to precession to justify the

Surya Sidhanta longitudes of Maya the mlechha, even if it was at the

cost of the unequivocal statements of the same SS that it was talking

about so called Sayana longitudes instead of the so called nirayana

ones.

As such, it is impossible that some " Gupta Era astronomers " could

have calculated the rate of precession, especially when there is

absolutely no evidence for the same.

Thanks.

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , " amsharanx " <amsharanx@>

wrote:

>

> Shree Kauljee:

>

> Thanks for your reply. I have a suggestion for you.

> Kindly consider or accept it as a fact that Gupta Era Astronomers

> calculated the precession ( Newtonian Definition of precession )

> approximately equal to 49.421 " . This is quite close to 49.846 " ,

if

> the time period is equal to 26, 000 Years.

>

> Those Gupta Era astronomers were quite capable.

> Brahmagupta did not believe, as far as I can recall, that the earth

> has spin motion about its own axis. He was quite critical of

Aryabhatt

> I who came up with this concept.

>

> This concept of spin became known in Europe at least

> thousand year later than Aryabhatt I's time.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Anand M. Sharan

>

> hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Dr. Ananda M. Sharanji,

> > Namaskar!

> > <Let us stick to the point that we are discussing. The points

are: (

> > 1 ) Rashis which, for example, Shakuntala Devi writes about, and

(

> > 2 ) Precession of the Equinoxes. Obviously, this precession is

about

> > some thing stationary. >

> >

> > So the cat is out of the bag after all!

> >

> > You had started the discussion about precession of equinoxes vis-

a-

> > vis the ancient Indian sidhantas about which you had quoted

a " Xtian

> > Missionary " and rushed after me with all the tongs and hammers at

> > your command to prove the unprovable myth that some " Gupta Era

Indian

> > astronomers " had back-calculated Vikrami Era by dint of the

> > methodology of calculating precession from some ancient sidhanta.

> > It has by now been established by me that till the time of

Munjala,

> > (10th century AD) no Indian astronomer talked about ayanamsha---

and

> > Munjala was actually bridging a gap between the Tropical solar

year

> > of the Surya Sidhanta that it had envisaged and the calculated

mess

> > of that very sidhanta. He too did not have any idea about

sidereal

> > year and Tropical year, either.

> >

> > Now you are shifting gears and using Shakuntla Devi as crutches!

> > Anyway, what Shakuntala Devi writes about or not, I am not a

party to

> > that discussion. As such, what she means by " precession is about

> > something stationary " she only can explain to you. For me

Newton's

> > discussion of precession is more than sufficient.

> >

> > <What is stationary ? Incidentally, Shakuntala Devi discusses

equal

> > division of each of the Rashis>

> >

> > As clarified hundreds of times, Mesha etc. Rashis are imaginary

> > divisions created by Greoch-Chaldean asgtrologers to start with,

> > which were used later by Surya Sidhanta and other Western

> > astrologers. Indian astrologers also started using them, thanks

to

> > the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! As such, here also, what

> > Shakuntala Devi says, I am no party to that discussion because

she

> > also is, after all, a jyotishi in one or the other way and as

such,

> > cannot practise her profession without Mesha etc. rashis!

> > There is a saying, " If there were no God, we would have to invent

> > one " . And that is what exactly has been done with Mesha, Vrisha

etc.

> > Rashis---they have been " invented " by jyotishis!

> > Dhanyavad.

> > A K Kaul

> >

> > hinducivilization , " amsharanx "

<amsharanx@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dr. Anand M. Sharanji,

> > > > Namaskar!

> > > >

> > > > < We all know that equinox shifted from Aries to Pisces in 57

BC.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > You are really making a fool of yourself by such statemnts

since

> > > > equinox did not shift from Aries astrological sign to Pisces

> > > > astrological sign but from Greek constellation Aries into

Greek

> > > > constellation Pisces in around 61 BC and not 57 BC. Don't

you

> > know

> > > > even that much of astronomy that the Equinoxes or Solstices

do

> > not

> > > > shift into astrological signs of twelve imaginary equal

divisions

> > > > since they are actually non-existent! Do you want me to

teach

> > you

> > > > like a school master even that much of rudimentary astronomy?

> > >

> > > Let us assume that you are great for a moment, and can teach

all of

> > > us here.

> > >

> > > Whether it was 61 BC or 57 BC - does it make all that

difference -

> > > even if you say it was 61 BC ? Let us not digress from the

point by

> > > making such remarks, and remain to the point.

> > >

> > > Let us stick to the point that we are discussing. The points

are: (

> > > 1 ) Rashis which, for example, Shakuntala Devi writes about,

and (

> > > 2 ) Precession of the Equinoxes. Obviously, this precession is

> > about

> > > some thing stationary.

> > >

> > > What is stationary ? Incidentally, Shakuntala Devi discusses

equal

> > > division of each of the Rashis.

> > >

> > > We will proceed from this.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > Anand M. Sharan

> > >

> >

>

--- End forwarded message ---

March 7, 2009

IndiaArchaeology , " aareni " <aareni wrote:

This is a leading question of Lawyers who are supposed to ask " when did you stop

beating your wife? " . Firstly where in the whole of canonical Vedic literature

(Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, Vedanga) Makara Sakramana is mentioned??!!!

RNI

IndiaArchaeology , " sunil_bhattacharjya "

<sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote:

>

> Dear Avtarji,

>

> May I request both you and Dr. Iyengar to please let us know, by

> giving the actual reference only, as to where is it said in the Vedic

> literature that the Uttarayana must always coincide with the Makar

> Sankramana just because there was such a coincidence at one time.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> IndiaArchaeology , " jyotirved " <jyotirved@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dr. R. N. Iyengarji,

> >

> > Namaskar!

> >

> > It was really an excellent and to the point post about the pathetic

> state of

> > affairs regarding all our festivals---fasts and muhurtas especially the

> > comments, " Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed

> out this

> > in my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated with

> Makara

> > Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got muddled

> up is

> > no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. Evidences are there

> for every

> > Hindu to see.>

> >

> > I had been waiting with a bated breath for comments from the learned

> members

> > of this and other forums to which I had forwarded your post

> regarding the

> > wrong method of fixing Makara Sankranti and other Sankrantis. I was

> under

> > the impression that maybe people have become accustomed to my

> " hollering "

> > that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days and have stopped

> > taking my statements seriously, but they will certainly respond to

> the post

> > of a scientist and Vedic scholar of your standing. But I am really

> > disappointed on such a deafening silence from everybody even to your

> post!

> > Such a silence is certainly not a healthy indication of a real cultural

> > interaction!

> >

> > <High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this openly and

> > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on a day

> other

> > than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should also

> interpret the

> > modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at the four

> sankrantis

> > (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the ancient Vedic

> texts. The

> > above four sankramanas are the four corners >

> >

> > I had sent letters by registered post together with my panchangas

> quite a

> > few years back to all the six Shankaracharyas, besides quite a few other

> > dharmacharyas, explaining to them the sorry state of affairs of our

> > festivals and muhurtas in detail. (Pl. see Shankara.doc in files

> section). I

> > did not get any response from any dharmacharya in spite of my several

> > reminders.

> >

> > As I had sent copies of my such letters to all the leading

> panchangamakers

> > in the country, including Janmabhoomi (Gujarati) in Mumbai, a

> gentleman in

> > the HinduCalendar forum pointed out to me the " adjudication " by

> Jagadguru

> > Shankaracharya of Kanchikamakoti Peetha that is being

> printed/published in

> > Janmabhoomi Panchanga every year. I am forwarding a copy of that

> > translation from HinduCalendar forum to this forum for perusal of

> all the

> > members.

> >

> > It will be evident from that post that the Swamigal had put the ball

> in the

> > court (lap!?) of nirayana astrologers for " adjudication " instead of

> doing

> > some serious thinking on an issue of such importance himself, and no

> wonder

> > that the nirayana astrologers have advised the Acharya that we must

> continue

> > to follow Lahiri Ayanamsha for horoscopy as well as festivals and

> muhurtas!

> > It is just like late N C Lahiri, as Secretary of Saha Calendar Reform

> > Committee, asking Hindu astrologers their views about the

> Rashichakra that

> > must be followed for festivals and muhurtas and no wonder almost all the

> > jyotishis had, in unison, opined that it must be " Chitrapaksha " .

> >

> > <I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the Dharmacharya

> Sabha headed

> > by Sri Swami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great regard)

> refutes me

> > and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of January 14th

> is the

> > real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that Krishna mentions in the

> > Bhagavadgita.>

> >

> > It has been my sad experience over the last about fifteen years that

> neither

> > any dharmacharya nor any " Vamadeva " nor any " Parashara " etc. etc.

> responds

> > to any inconvenient questions, correct answers to which may put them at

> > loggerheads with their followers/shishyas, ninety-nine per cent of

> whom are

> > " Vedic astrologers " i.e. Lahiri Makar-Sankranti-walas! These

> dharmacharyas

> > and " Parasharas " and " Vamadevas " etc. etc. are also in a Catch-22

> situation:

> > If they take a correct stand now and advise their shishyas and

> followers to

> > follow correct dates for festivals and muhurtas in future, it may affect

> > their own standing adversely, since maybe they are afraid of being

> > questioned as to why they had been advocating a wrong gamut of

> calendars and

> > even horoscopy till date! The dilemma of dharmacharyas will be

> evident from

> > a separate mail titled " I do not want to lose my pontiff's seat " .

> >

> > These " Vamadevas " and " Parasharas " and maybe even dharmacharyas, on the

> > other hand, set their shishyas and followers on the job of

> rabble-rousing,

> > and instead of refuting any of the points raised by me, these

> shishyas and

> > followers go on abusing me left and right by calling me a Muslim

> convert or

> > a Xtian being funded by Missionaries and so on with the pious hope

> that I

> > will just give up in exasperation!

> >

> > However, those shishyas and followers, including their mentors and

> acharyas,

> > are entirely mistaken in the assessment of the outcome of a dharmayudha!

> >

> > Regarding Bhagvadgita, Bhagwan Krishna has said in the same Gita that a

> > person with tamoguni budhi sees dharma as adharma and adharma as dharma!

> > And since the dharmacharyas and even some " Parasharas " and

> " Vamadevas " etc.

> > also are supposed to have read at least the Gita, if no other

> shastra, they

> > are thus proving themselves to have been enveloped by tamoguni budhi

> as they

> > are seeing wrong dates of festivals as correct ones and vice-versa!

> They

> > are also too cowardly to either admit it openly or to prove the

> other party

> > wrong!

> >

> > It is evident from the fact that a " his holiness of art of one thing

> or the

> > other " had put his stamp of approval on the date of birth of Bhagwan

> Ram as

> > January 14, 5114 BCE, at about noon, not because " his holiness " had

> > visualized that date of Bhagwan Ram through his tapasya, but maybe only

> > because the date of January 14, 5114 BCE, had been fixed by some

> Income Tax

> > Commissioner! After all, one cannot be on the wrong side of the

> powers that

> > be, in spite of that " one " being a " his holiness of the art of

> something or

> > the other " .

> >

> > It is only because of such sad experiences with dharmacharyas and

> " top notch

> > Vedic astrologers " and even the Govt. of India etc. etc. that I am

> keeping

> > all these facts and figures before a common man so that he sees for

> himself

> > as to how he is being taken for a ride in the name of " Vedic

> astrology " by

> > dharmacharyas as well as jyotishaharyas and even the Rashtriya

> Panchanga.

> > The general public must now stand up in revolt of such atrocities so

> that we

> > stop celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days

> because of the

> > wrong advice and " adjudication " of these very acharyas and

> " Vamadevas " etc.

> > etc. whom we are treating as our friends, philosophers and guides.

> >

> > And that is why I keep on repeating, " we do not need enemies to ruin our

> > dharma if we have 'friendly Vedic astrologers' together with

> dharmacharyas

> > around to do that job by making us celebrate Uttarayana on January

> 14 and

> > Pitra-amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali and so on.

> >

> > It is again a Clarion call to all the Hindu members of the society

> to wake

> > up, wake up and wake up!

> >

> > With kind personal regards,

> >

> > A K Kaul

> >

> > hinducivilization , " aareni " <aareni@> wrote:

> >

> > >Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed out this in

> >

> > > my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated with

> >

> > > Makara Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got

> >

> > > muddled up is no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity.

> >

> > > Evidences are there for every Hindu to see. I had heard that Sangha

> >

> > > Parivar had decided to observe Sankranti on 22 December. I don't know

> >

> > > whether this info is correct or not. If yes, then GREAT otherwise

> >

> > > well phu! phu!

> >

> > > High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this openly and

> >

> > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on a day

> >

> > > other than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should also

> >

> > > interpret the modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at

> >

> > > the four sankrantis (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the

> >

> > > ancient Vedic texts. The above four sankramanas are the four corners

> >

> > > of Hindu religious observances of all castes and sects. Many

> >

> > > festivals have also originated based on their positions. Observing

> >

> > > Uttarayana on the wrong day (I am not talking of the time) is as

> >

> > > wrong as observing Amaavaasya on Chaturthi! Of course no one does

> >

> > > this mistake, simply because it is easy to see whether moon is

> >

> > > visible or not (at least approximately). Uttarayana was also fixed by

> >

> > > observations in the Vedic past [see the Mahavrata, Pravargya and the

> >

> > > 21 day rituals] and NOT BY CONSULTING AN ASTROLOGER'S WRONG PANCANGA.

> >

> > > I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the Dharmacharya Sabha

> >

> > > headed by Sri SWami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great regard)

> >

> > > refutes me and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of

> >

> > > January 14th is the real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that

> >

> > > Krishna mentions in the Bhagavadgita.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > RN Iyengar

> >

> > >

> >

> > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> >

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > > >>

> >

> > > > Just one example will suffice:

> >

> > > > Pongal--cum-Makar-Sankranti is supposed to be a seasonal festival.

> >

> > > > But if Pongal is clubbed with Lahiri Makar Sankrnati, as is being

> >

> > > > done by " Vedic astrologers " , it means it has been going on

> >

> > > advancing

> >

> > > > by one day every 72 years. Thus it must have coincided with

> >

> > > > Uttarayana viz. the Winter Solstice in 285 AD---the zero year of

> >

> > > > Lahiriwalas!

> >

> > > > Prior to that, say in about 1400 BCE, the period of the Vedanga

> >

> > > > Jyotisha, Lahiri-Pongal-cum-Lahiri-Makar-Sankranti was about twenty-

> >

> > > > four days (at the rate of one day for every seventy-two years for

> >

> > > > 1400+285=1685 years) before Uttarayana i.e. around the beginning of

> >

> > > > November in 1400 BCE as per the Julian calendar, if there could be

> >

> > > > any such calendar then!

> >

> > > > It means that Pongal would have been then exactly 24 days prior to

> >

> > > > the real Uttarayana as it is ahead these days! What type of a

> >

> > > > seasonal festival is it then?

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

>

--- End forwarded message ---

March 14, 2009

Dear Sunil ji, That was an informative mail. Thanks.Love and regards,Sreenadh , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:>> > > > hare rama krishna> > dear sunil Bhattacharjya ji> > let us discard kaul for his wilful deliberate and designed to spread> confusion utterance s>he is on this mission without any monetary benefit> for last 25 yrs is undigestable and he has all the time and resources> too and never short of anything ,so we can very well understand that he> is on missionary work than creating a calender which is not workable> .And vedas discuss abt solar ( saura and savana ) calenders and that is> basic calender any primitiv man can create as it is observable and easy> to make .then only this lunar and nakshatra calenders happened ,which is> mathematical one and without a rasi concept again it is not possible > ,with rasis only jupiterian calnders possible as it is taken as time> taken by jupiter to move in one rasi ,so every thing is understood and> nothing shud b prooved .when some one discuss some thing every sentence> we dont need to tell or explain basics ewhich is a common prasctise too> ,so asking proof of everything in vedas is simply bull shit .The meaning> ofthye word vedas is ultimate knowledge secured till day and which is> regrded sacredbecause hindus ( means all indian religions including> jaina ,budha ,saiva ,tantric etc ) take any knowledge as sacred ,so> astrology is jyotirveda and ayurveda and stpata veda and all other 64> branches of science generated this way only here veda means knowldge not> that it means u can see its full text in vedas ( which is devided by> veda vyasa as 4 vedas )> > all his questions r like this and he has no proof too ,that we got> everything frm greeks or chaldeans than his support he support his> argumnt with any proofs .europeans using right hand to eat is not our> mistake ,it is univerdal truth and phinomenon ,so universal truth may be> adopted by many races ( i dont want to belittle any race or culture )> .india has already proof of many things frm BC 10000 that we hav defenit> systems and culture than greek or roman or chalderans own its own> > > > also any scinece ( satra ) to survive ,devlp or even 2 grow it needs a> philosophical backing ( like janma punarnma and advaita etc ahm brhmasmi> ) ,so if some one in greek mentions some thing means it is pirated than> we got frm them .otherwise kaul has to demonstrte how they arrived it> and how and why it has not been followed further .> > His fvrite argumnt is yavans are greeks and maya is a greek man which is> not possible even frm greek history as it is his ignorence or wilful> agenda ( actualy he--kaul - is trying to become one to destroy hindu> culture ,which he blame on maya the asura ) he is repeating every thing> again and again even after it is prooved by many ,still he will use> same adjectives which u explained in mail plus he is depending on xian> missionary trnslations than he know s any sanskrit,because it is never> heard in any where history than some one created some thing to fool> others -here we hindus and it is blindly followed by all hindus .( i> mean surya sidhanta and i even asked one of my frnd to ask Kaul to> create such a treatise if it is so easy or if any one can do it,pls ask> him to show me . which is close to modern finding and v v v minor errors> are projected by kaul as big mistakes ) and the truth is hindus observed> all this not to sent satelite or make a coloney in space but to observe> festivals and various vedic rituals and predict matters related country> and persons as our prapancha bodham was like that ,we blv that we r mini> brahmandam ,so any thing happening in space is also possible to make an> impact in mini cosmos which is pindandam which is very much close to> advaita philosophy too.Without a utility part no PPL will follow> anything for such a long time ,even many rituals even changed but not> astrology or such scinces> > if he has objections ask him to explain ( than we keep on teaching him> so as to find more alternativ argumnts and i blv it shud b done with a> strong moderation ( i mean a judge shud b there ) than he is left like> a loose dog to wander frm grps to grps and haunt ppl and call names or> attack in personals mails ))what is purusha sukta and its purpose ( to> know his vast knowledge in sanskrit ) and ask him to define how hindus> arrived the lunar calender and panchanga and thithies .He never explaind> this ( as some one who is my student has asked him this 100 times and he> never bother to answer it and was keep on running away without answering> it ) and such a fool is arguing for a unsuccessful calender and all> hindu fools in many hindu forums thinks he has lot of brain and knowldge> and he is talking some sense and it is what is in vedas> > > > better i talk after his explnations> > > > other wise we r waisting our time and even money ( as he is getting it> in millions and he needs to show proof too to his masters )> > > > sorry for all mistakes in typing ( as i type and will not re read it b4> posting )> > > > regrds sunil nair> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya> sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote:> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Dear Shri Avtarji,> >> > Namaste,> >> > Can I refer to your following statement ?> >> > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)" the> previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they are> actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!"> >> > I shall be highly grateful if you kindly clarify as to where and when> did any Vedic astrologer claim that they can pre-see janmas and foresee> the future janmas as well. To my knowledge Lord Buddha could see his> past janmas only when he got spiritual enlightenment. Trikalajna> Rishis are said to be able to see the past, present and the future. To> my knowledge the Vedic astrologers think that the natal horoscope> reflects only the effects of the past karma in this life. However this> is not say that no karma of this life will have any effect in this life> at all.> >> > I fully agree with your quotation from the Suryasiddhanta "Bhanor> Makara Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat> shanmasa dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with> the ingress of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of> Dakshinayana start with its ingress into Karkata rashi".> >> > To my knowledge the Winter Solstice started occurring in the Makar> Rashi from the 19th century BCE and the Winter Solstice continued to> occur in the Makar Rashi till the 3rd century CE and after that it> started occurring in the Dhanu rashi. This junction of change over from> Makar Rashi to Dhanu Rashi in the 3rd century CE is memorable and from> that time the Ayanamsha correction started. Astronomically after 25,800> years from the time in the 3rd century CE the Wnter Solstice should> occur again at the junction of change over from Makar Rashi to Dhanu> Rashi. In the absence of specific reference to Makar Sankranti in any of> the pre-19th century BCE ancient texts it appears reasonable to say > that before the 19 th century BCE the Makar Sankranti was not observed> on the Uttarayana day and therefore there is no need to observe Makar> Sankranti on the Uttarayana day now.> >> > I would like to have your valuable opinion as to whether you agree> with the above analysis and if not why. I am also requesting the other> reputed scholars of the Jyotish sashtra, who are in these addressed> groups, such as Shri Robertsonji, Shri Sreenadhji, Shri Sunil Nairji,> Dr. R.N.Iyengarji, Shri Ajai katesariyaji, Shri Gopal Goelji, Shri> vinay jhaji and other scholars with interest in this subject, to give> their valuable opinion on this very crucial matter.> >> > Regards,> >> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> >> >> >> >> >> > --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@ wrote:> >> > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@> > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage> scientists> > IndiaArchaeology > > Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:36 AM> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Dear Group,> > Namaskar!> > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)" the> previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they are> actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!> >> > The following comment from a member is very interesting in this> context,"So why should Avtarji and others insist that Makar Sankranti> should be observed on the Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as> the Makar Sankranti and the Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the> Sun enters the Nirayana Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should> not be taken an excuse to derail the making of the authentic Hindu> Calendar".> >> > I wish the member concerned had shunned his tamoguni budhi, and> purused at least the following excerpts from my post No.8373 of Feb> 25,09--hardly of a few days back! And I quote just a few relevant paras:> >> > "4. It is thus futile to talk about the Vedic rashis being so called> sayana or so called nirayana since you cannot discuss the qualities and> qualifications of a non-existent entity! Such gimmicks are used only in> predictive astrology like kala-sarpa yoga/dosha by "invisible" lunar> nodes, which are just mathematical points--- or imaginary Dreshkana and> saptamasha and what not divisions of imaginary twelve equal divisions of> Mesha etc. rashis and "correct phalita" through imaginary vimshotari and> ashtotari and yogini and kalachakra and hundreds of such dashas etc.> etc.! Such gimmicks, however, cannot work in astronomy, which demands> proofs for any claims made!> >> > "The nirayana versus sayana mess that has derailed the Hindu calendar> is actually a creation of Hindu jyotishis (who call themselves Vedic> astrologers (sic!) these days! It is actually the difference of the> calculated longitudes of the Surya Sidhanta vis-à-vis the actual> phenomena of Winter Solstice etc. that is known as Ayanamsha! For> example, the Surya Sidhanta says categorically, "Bhanor Makara> Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat shanmasa> dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with the ingress> of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinayana start> with its ingress into Karkata rashi" but when it comes to its> calculation, there is a difference of about 24 days/degrees between the> actual Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti and the Surya Sidhanta calculated> Makar Sankranti as on date!"> > ....> > ...> >> > "7. Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, therefore, are a direct import from> Babylonia via the Greeks and all the sidhantas, right from the Surya> Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha to the last sidhanta of Bhaskara-II viz.> the Sidhanta Shiromani have invariably talked about Makara Sankranti> being another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti being another> name of Dakshinayana and so on. As I have gone through almost all the> sidhantas, I can assure you that none of the sidhanta-kars had any idea> about the phenomenon of precession!> > " However, all the Puranas like Bhagavata, Shiva, Linga, Devi etc.> etc. also talk of the same phenomena as the sidhantas i.e. "Makar> Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti another> name of Dakshinayana" and so on. (Pl. see 1999b.doc). As such, the> Pauranic rahis are an after thought and a development of> post-Surya-Sidhanta era! ......"> > *** **** ***** ***** ****> > And the most important point that appears to be the nightmare of the> "Vedic astrologers" is (from the same post):> >> > "Thus if we really want to streamline our calendars in accordance with> the Vedas and Puranas, the earlier we come out of the stupor of Mesha,> Vrisha etc. rashsis the better! If at all it is a necessary evil to have> rashis included in the calendar, the only alternative is that we have to> include the so called sayana Rashis, since they are the ones found in> the Puranas and sidhantas (and not in the Vedas or the VJ etc.) but we> have to simultaneously de-link Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras from the> same.> >> > That is the only and only way to streamline the Hindu calendar as per> the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha and even Puranas."> > ** **** *** ***> > Then again, on perusal of post No.8374 and the "list of correct dates> of festivals in 2009-10" in the files section, things will be all the> more clear that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, being actually non-existent> divisions, are imaginary and are being clubbed with Uttarayana etc. only> as a substitute of the baseless and useless nirayana mess! It is only to> "choose the lesser of two evils"---since if some states take Meshadi as> the start of the new solar year, they have to be informed that it must> be a so called sayana Meshadi since Vishuva (Vernal Equinox) and not> Meshadi is the real start of new solar year, and so on.> > Hope these "Vedic astrologers" will not make a laughing stock of> themselves any more by creating nirayana versus sayana controversies and> so on.> > I also pray to God that He save the Hindus from the clutches of "Vedic> astrologers" ---whetehr sayana Vedic or nirayana Vedic so that we can> streamline our calendars in accordance with the scriputres and not as> per the whims of Lahiri-walas and Ramana-walas and Chandra-Hariwalas and> so on.> > With regards,> > A K Kaul> >> > IndiaArchaeology, Sunil Bhattacharjya> <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > >> > > Thank you Iyengarji,> > >> > > So you agree that Makar Sankranti could not have been linked to> Uttarayana in the ancient past as Makara Sankramana itself was not> mentioned in the literature of the ancient past. So why should Avtarji> and others insist that Makar Sankranti should be observed on the> Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as the Makar Sankranti and the> Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the Sun enters the Nirayana> Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should not be taken an excuse> to derail the making of the authentic Hindu Calendar.> > >> > > Regards,> > >> > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > >> > >> > >> > > --- On Wed, 3/4/09, aareni aareni@ wrote:> > >> > > aareni aareni@> > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage> scientists> > > IndiaArchaeology> > > Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 4:55 PM> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > This is a leading question of Lawyers who are supposed to ask "when> did you stop beating your wife?". Firstly where in the whole of> canonical Vedic literature (Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, Vedanga) Makara> Sakramana is mentioned??! !!> > >> > > RNI> > >> > > IndiaArchaeology, "sunil_bhattacharjy a"> <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Avtarji,> > > >> > > > May I request both you and Dr. Iyengar to please let us know, by> > > > giving the actual reference only, as to where is it said in the> Vedic> > > > literature that the Uttarayana must always coincide with the Makar> > > > Sankramana just because there was such a coincidence at one time.> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > >> > > > IndiaArchaeology, "jyotirved"> <jyotirved@>> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dr. R. N. Iyengarji,> > > > >> > > > > Namaskar!> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > It was really an excellent and to the point post about the> pathetic> > > > state of> > > > > affairs regarding all our festivals--- fasts and muhurtas> especially the> > > > > comments, "Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also> pointed> > > > out this> > > > > in my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated> with> > > > Makara> > > > > Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got> muddled> > > > up is> > > > > no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. Evidences are> there> > > > for every> > > > > Hindu to see.>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > I had been waiting with a bated breath for comments from the> learned> > > > members> > > > > of this and other forums to which I had forwarded your post> > > > regarding the> > > > > wrong method of fixing Makara Sankranti and other Sankrantis. I> was> > > > under> > > > > the impression that maybe people have become accustomed to my> > > > "hollering"> > > > > that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days and have> stopped> > > > > taking my statements seriously, but they will certainly respond> to> > > > the post> > > > > of a scientist and Vedic scholar of your standing. But I am> really> > > > > disappointed on such a deafening silence from everybody even to> your> > > > post!> > > > > Such a silence is certainly not a healthy indication of a real> cultural> > > > > interaction!> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > <High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> openly and> > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on a> day> > > > other> > > > > than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should also> > > > interpret the> > > > > modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at the four> > > > sankrantis> > > > > (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the ancient Vedic> > > > texts. The> > > > > above four sankramanas are the four corners >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > I had sent letters by registered post together with my> panchangas> > > > quite a> > > > > few years back to all the six Shankaracharyas, besides quite a> few other> > > > > dharmacharyas, explaining to them the sorry state of affairs of> our> > > > > festivals and muhurtas in detail. (Pl. see Shankara.doc in files> > > > section). I> > > > > did not get any response from any dharmacharya in spite of my> several> > > > > reminders.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > As I had sent copies of my such letters to all the leading> > > > panchangamakers> > > > > in the country, including Janmabhoomi (Gujarati) in Mumbai, a> > > > gentleman in> > > > > the HinduCalendar forum pointed out to me the "adjudication" by> > > > Jagadguru> > > > > Shankaracharya of Kanchikamakoti Peetha that is being> > > > printed/published in> > > > > Janmabhoomi Panchanga every year. I am forwarding a copy of that> > > > > translation from HinduCalendar forum to this forum for perusal> of> > > > all the> > > > > members.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > It will be evident from that post that the Swamigal had put the> ball> > > > in the> > > > > court (lap!?) of nirayana astrologers for "adjudication" instead> of> > > > doing> > > > > some serious thinking on an issue of such importance himself,> and no> > > > wonder> > > > > that the nirayana astrologers have advised the Acharya that we> must> > > > continue> > > > > to follow Lahiri Ayanamsha for horoscopy as well as festivals> and> > > > muhurtas!> > > > > It is just like late N C Lahiri, as Secretary of Saha Calendar> Reform> > > > > Committee, asking Hindu astrologers their views about the> > > > Rashichakra that> > > > > must be followed for festivals and muhurtas and no wonder almost> all the> > > > > jyotishis had, in unison, opined that it must be "Chitrapaksha"> .> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > Sabha headed> > > > > by Sri Swami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great regard)> > > > refutes me> > > > > and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of January> 14th> > > > is the> > > > > real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that Krishna mentions in> the> > > > > Bhagavadgita. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > It has been my sad experience over the last about fifteen years> that> > > > neither> > > > > any dharmacharya nor any "Vamadeva" nor any "Parashara" etc.> etc.> > > > responds> > > > > to any inconvenient questions, correct answers to which may put> them at> > > > > loggerheads with their followers/shishyas, ninety-nine per cent> of> > > > whom are> > > > > "Vedic astrologers" i.e. Lahiri Makar-Sankranti- walas! These> > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > and "Parasharas" and "Vamadevas" etc. etc. are also in a> Catch-22> > > > situation:> > > > > If they take a correct stand now and advise their shishyas and> > > > followers to> > > > > follow correct dates for festivals and muhurtas in future, it> may affect> > > > > their own standing adversely, since maybe they are afraid of> being> > > > > questioned as to why they had been advocating a wrong gamut of> > > > calendars and> > > > > even horoscopy till date! The dilemma of dharmacharyas will be> > > > evident from> > > > > a separate mail titled "I do not want to lose my pontiff's> seat".> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > These "Vamadevas" and "Parasharas" and maybe even dharmacharyas,> on the> > > > > other hand, set their shishyas and followers on the job of> > > > rabble-rousing,> > > > > and instead of refuting any of the points raised by me, these> > > > shishyas and> > > > > followers go on abusing me left and right by calling me a Muslim> > > > convert or> > > > > a Xtian being funded by Missionaries and so on with the pious> hope> > > > that I> > > > > will just give up in exasperation!> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > However, those shishyas and followers, including their mentors> and> > > > acharyas,> > > > > are entirely mistaken in the assessment of the outcome of a> dharmayudha!> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Regarding Bhagvadgita, Bhagwan Krishna has said in the same Gita> that a> > > > > person with tamoguni budhi sees dharma as adharma and adharma as> dharma!> > > > > And since the dharmacharyas and even some "Parasharas" and> > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > also are supposed to have read at least the Gita, if no other> > > > shastra, they> > > > > are thus proving themselves to have been enveloped by tamoguni> budhi> > > > as they> > > > > are seeing wrong dates of festivals as correct ones and> vice-versa!> > > > They> > > > > are also too cowardly to either admit it openly or to prove the> > > > other party> > > > > wrong!> > > > >> > > > > It is evident from the fact that a "his holiness of art of one> thing> > > > or the> > > > > other" had put his stamp of approval on the date of birth of> Bhagwan> > > > Ram as> > > > > January 14, 5114 BCE, at about noon, not because "his holiness"> had> > > > > visualized that date of Bhagwan Ram through his tapasya, but> maybe only> > > > > because the date of January 14, 5114 BCE, had been fixed by some> > > > Income Tax> > > > > Commissioner! After all, one cannot be on the wrong side of the> > > > powers that> > > > > be, in spite of that "one" being a "his holiness of the art of> > > > something or> > > > > the other".> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > It is only because of such sad experiences with dharmacharyas> and> > > > "top notch> > > > > Vedic astrologers" and even the Govt. of India etc. etc. that I> am> > > > keeping> > > > > all these facts and figures before a common man so that he sees> for> > > > himself> > > > > as to how he is being taken for a ride in the name of "Vedic> > > > astrology" by> > > > > dharmacharyas as well as jyotishaharyas and even the Rashtriya> > > > Panchanga.> > > > > The general public must now stand up in revolt of such> atrocities so> > > > that we> > > > > stop celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days> > > > because of the> > > > > wrong advice and "adjudication" of these very acharyas and> > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > etc. whom we are treating as our friends, philosophers and> guides.> > > > >> > > > > And that is why I keep on repeating, "we do not need enemies to> ruin our> > > > > dharma if we have 'friendly Vedic astrologers' together with> > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > around to do that job by making us celebrate Uttarayana on> January> > > > 14 and> > > > > Pitra-amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali and so on.> > > > >> > > > > It is again a Clarion call to all the Hindu members of the> society> > > > to wake> > > > > up, wake up and wake up!> > > > >> > > > > With kind personal regards,> > > > >> > > > > A K Kaul> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization, "aareni" <aareni@>> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > >Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed out> this in> > > > >> > > > > > my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated> with> > > > >> > > > > > Makara Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara> sankranti got> > > > >> > > > > > muddled up is no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity.> > > > >> > > > > > Evidences are there for every Hindu to see. I had heard that> Sangha> > > > >> > > > > > Parivar had decided to observe Sankranti on 22 December. I> don't know> > > > >> > > > > > whether this info is correct or not. If yes, then GREAT> otherwise> > > > >> > > > > > well phu! phu!> > > > >> > > > > > High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> openly and> > > > >> > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on> a day> > > > >> > > > > > other than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They> should also> > > > >> > > > > > interpret the modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of> TarpaNam at> > > > >> > > > > > the four sankrantis (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as> per the> > > > >> > > > > > ancient Vedic texts. The above four sankramanas are the four> corners> > > > >> > > > > > of Hindu religious observances of all castes and sects. Many> > > > >> > > > > > festivals have also originated based on their positions.> Observing> > > > >> > > > > > Uttarayana on the wrong day (I am not talking of the time) is> as> > > > >> > > > > > wrong as observing Amaavaasya on Chaturthi! Of course no one> does> > > > >> > > > > > this mistake, simply because it is easy to see whether moon is> > > > >> > > > > > visible or not (at least approximately) . Uttarayana was also> fixed by> > > > >> > > > > > observations in the Vedic past [see the Mahavrata, Pravargya> and the> > > > >> > > > > > 21 day rituals] and NOT BY CONSULTING AN ASTROLOGER'S WRONG> PANCANGA.> > > > >> > > > > > I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the Dharmacharya> Sabha> > > > >> > > > > > headed by Sri SWami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great> regard)> > > > >> > > > > > refutes me and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti> of> > > > >> > > > > > January 14th is the real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that> > > > >> > > > > > Krishna mentions in the Bhagavadgita.> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > RN Iyengar> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > hinducivilization, "Avtar Krishen> Kaul"> > > > >> > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > Just one example will suffice:> > > > >> > > > > > > Pongal--cum- Makar-Sankranti is supposed to be a seasonal> festival.> > > > >> > > > > > > But if Pongal is clubbed with Lahiri Makar Sankrnati, as is> being> > > > >> > > > > > > done by "Vedic astrologers" , it means it has been going on> > > > >> > > > > > advancing> > > > >> > > > > > > by one day every 72 years. Thus it must have coincided with> > > > >> > > > > > > Uttarayana viz. the Winter Solstice in 285 AD---the zero> year of> > > > >> > > > > > > Lahiriwalas!> > > > >> > > > > > > Prior to that, say in about 1400 BCE, the period of the> Vedanga> > > > >> > > > > > > Jyotisha, Lahiri-Pongal- cum-Lahiri- Makar-Sankranti was> about twenty-> > > > >> > > > > > > four days (at the rate of one day for every seventy-two> years for> > > > >> > > > > > > 1400+285=1685 years) before Uttarayana i.e. around the> beginning of> > > > >> > > > > > > November in 1400 BCE as per the Julian calendar, if there> could be> > > > >> > > > > > > any such calendar then!> > > > >> > > > > > > It means that Pongal would have been then exactly 24 days> prior to> > > > >> > > > > > > the real Uttarayana as it is ahead these days! What type of> a> > > > >> > > > > > > seasonal festival is it then?> > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

March 14, 2009

dear sreenadh ji ,bhaskar ji ,sankar bhardwaj ji and sunil b ji and all others

we shud understand the mission of kaul as he is financed by some grps to take tirade against astrology as the fact is hindus dont got converted even after 1000s of yrs of foriegn attacks and the others sections ( who is financing )knows that the strnght of hindus is astrology and not vedas ,because the ppl who r not willing to convert even after all lot of persuation is because they hav a workable science in frnt of them which is prooving strnght of indian thoughts .Than they knows every word in vedas .So destruction of this astrology become prime objuct .

The plighht of kashmiri pundits is self invited one as they terrorised the king of utter dire consequence when some sanyasi offer re converting all ppl who embraced islam as he already got promise frm many grps ( they treatened him that they will suicide if even one man is re converted and remind him abt brahmana shapa ( curse ) which the king dont want to aquire ) ,because they thought they can enjoy all para phernalia of religion without any treats frm other high cast hindus .and the rest is history .It has nothing to do with astrology and hindu Gods r not semitic gods who wanted to take revenge on PPL who dont follow dos and do not s of their religions .

kaul is always talking semitic in ideas and his curses .where god explained in Geeeta that it is our karma that creates our destiny than u simply worship him without going to ur work or duty ( dharma mama is esssense of hindus means duty first ) .-Think abt our farmers doing only japa and not agriculture work 24 hrs .

his failure in astrology is simply a cover as i know even any successful predictions which done long back also he blasts with asking questions, asking to disclose methodology .Any person without a valid guru cannot master an y indian sastras as u need a lite to guide u .So many self -taught gurus turns negetiv is common ,by reading books no one can become a shilpi ,manta expert or tantric or even one good astrologer .

My frnds and students asked him many times take one shloka in any Hora and explain it if he has realy 50 yrs exp as he claims ,where as he claims he knows every astro system on earth .We realy even dont know who realy taught him astrology and which parampara it is .

more in next

with regrds sunil nair

om shreem mahalaxmai namah

, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Sunil ji,> That was an informative mail. Thanks.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "sunil nair"> astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> >> >> >> >> > hare rama krishna> >> > dear sunil Bhattacharjya ji> >> > let us discard kaul for his wilful deliberate and designed to spread> > confusion utterance s>he is on this mission without any monetary> benefit> > for last 25 yrs is undigestable and he has all the time and resources> > too and never short of anything ,so we can very well understand that> he> > is on missionary work than creating a calender which is not workable> > .And vedas discuss abt solar ( saura and savana ) calenders and that> is> > basic calender any primitiv man can create as it is observable and> easy> > to make .then only this lunar and nakshatra calenders happened ,which> is> > mathematical one and without a rasi concept again it is not possible> > ,with rasis only jupiterian calnders possible as it is taken as time> > taken by jupiter to move in one rasi ,so every thing is understood and> > nothing shud b prooved .when some one discuss some thing every> sentence> > we dont need to tell or explain basics ewhich is a common prasctise> too> > ,so asking proof of everything in vedas is simply bull shit .The> meaning> > ofthye word vedas is ultimate knowledge secured till day and which> is> > regrded sacredbecause hindus ( means all indian religions including> > jaina ,budha ,saiva ,tantric etc ) take any knowledge as sacred ,so> > astrology is jyotirveda and ayurveda and stpata veda and all other 64> > branches of science generated this way only here veda means knowldge> not> > that it means u can see its full text in vedas ( which is devided> by> > veda vyasa as 4 vedas )> >> > all his questions r like this and he has no proof too ,that we got> > everything frm greeks or chaldeans than his support he support his> > argumnt with any proofs .europeans using right hand to eat is not our> > mistake ,it is univerdal truth and phinomenon ,so universal truth may> be> > adopted by many races ( i dont want to belittle any race or culture )> > .india has already proof of many things frm BC 10000 that we hav> defenit> > systems and culture than greek or roman or chalderans own its own> >> >> >> > also any scinece ( satra ) to survive ,devlp or even 2 grow it needs a> > philosophical backing ( like janma punarnma and advaita etc ahm> brhmasmi> > ) ,so if some one in greek mentions some thing means it is pirated> than> > we got frm them .otherwise kaul has to demonstrte how they arrived it> > and how and why it has not been followed further .> >> > His fvrite argumnt is yavans are greeks and maya is a greek man which> is> > not possible even frm greek history as it is his ignorence or wilful> > agenda ( actualy he--kaul - is trying to become one to destroy hindu> > culture ,which he blame on maya the asura ) he is repeating every> thing> > again and again even after it is prooved by many ,still he will use> > same adjectives which u explained in mail plus he is depending on xian> > missionary trnslations than he know s any sanskrit,because it is never> > heard in any where history than some one created some thing to fool> > others -here we hindus and it is blindly followed by all hindus .( i> > mean surya sidhanta and i even asked one of my frnd to ask Kaul to> > create such a treatise if it is so easy or if any one can do it,pls> ask> > him to show me . which is close to modern finding and v v v minor> errors> > are projected by kaul as big mistakes ) and the truth is hindus> observed> > all this not to sent satelite or make a coloney in space but to> observe> > festivals and various vedic rituals and predict matters related> country> > and persons as our prapancha bodham was like that ,we blv that we r> mini> > brahmandam ,so any thing happening in space is also possible to make> an> > impact in mini cosmos which is pindandam which is very much close to> > advaita philosophy too.Without a utility part no PPL will follow> > anything for such a long time ,even many rituals even changed but not> > astrology or such scinces> >> > if he has objections ask him to explain ( than we keep on teaching him> > so as to find more alternativ argumnts and i blv it shud b done with a> > strong moderation ( i mean a judge shud b there ) than he is left> like> > a loose dog to wander frm grps to grps and haunt ppl and call names or> > attack in personals mails ))what is purusha sukta and its purpose ( to> > know his vast knowledge in sanskrit ) and ask him to define how hindus> > arrived the lunar calender and panchanga and thithies .He never> explaind> > this ( as some one who is my student has asked him this 100 times and> he> > never bother to answer it and was keep on running away without> answering> > it ) and such a fool is arguing for a unsuccessful calender and all> > hindu fools in many hindu forums thinks he has lot of brain and> knowldge> > and he is talking some sense and it is what is in vedas> >> >> >> > better i talk after his explnations> >> >> >> > other wise we r waisting our time and even money ( as he is getting it> > in millions and he needs to show proof too to his masters )> >> >> >> > sorry for all mistakes in typing ( as i type and will not re read it> b4> > posting )> >> >> >> > regrds sunil nair> >> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> >> >> > , Sunil Bhattacharjya> > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote:> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear Shri Avtarji,> > >> > > Namaste,> > >> > > Can I refer to your following statement ?> > >> > > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)"> the> > previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they are> > actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!"> > >> > > I shall be highly grateful if you kindly clarify as to where and> when> > did any Vedic astrologer claim that they can pre-see janmas and> foresee> > the future janmas as well. To my knowledge Lord Buddha could see his> > past janmas only when he got spiritual enlightenment. Trikalajna> > Rishis are said to be able to see the past, present and the future. > To> > my knowledge the Vedic astrologers think that the natal horoscope> > reflects only the effects of the past karma in this life. However this> > is not say that no karma of this life will have any effect in this> life> > at all.> > >> > > I fully agree with your quotation from the Suryasiddhanta "Bhanor> > Makara Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat> > shanmasa dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with> > the ingress of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of> > Dakshinayana start with its ingress into Karkata rashi".> > >> > > To my knowledge the Winter Solstice started occurring in the Makar> > Rashi from the 19th century BCE and the Winter Solstice continued to> > occur in the Makar Rashi till the 3rd century CE and after that it> > started occurring in the Dhanu rashi. This junction of change over> from> > Makar Rashi to Dhanu Rashi in the 3rd century CE is memorable and from> > that time the Ayanamsha correction started. Astronomically after> 25,800> > years from the time in the 3rd century CE the Wnter Solstice should> > occur again at the junction of change over from Makar Rashi to Dhanu> > Rashi. In the absence of specific reference to Makar Sankranti in any> of> > the pre-19th century BCE ancient texts it appears reasonable to say> > that before the 19 th century BCE the Makar Sankranti was not> observed> > on the Uttarayana day and therefore there is no need to observe Makar> > Sankranti on the Uttarayana day now.> > >> > > I would like to have your valuable opinion as to whether you agree> > with the above analysis and if not why. I am also requesting the> other> > reputed scholars of the Jyotish sashtra, who are in these addressed> > groups, such as Shri Robertsonji, Shri Sreenadhji, Shri Sunil Nairji,> > Dr. R.N.Iyengarji, Shri Ajai katesariyaji, Shri Gopal Goelji, Shri> > vinay jhaji and other scholars with interest in this subject, to give> > their valuable opinion on this very crucial matter.> > >> > > Regards,> > >> > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@ wrote:> > >> > > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@> > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage> > scientists> > > IndiaArchaeology > > > Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:36 AM> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Dear Group,> > > Namaskar!> > > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)"> the> > previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they are> > actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!> > >> > > The following comment from a member is very interesting in this> > context,"So why should Avtarji and others insist that Makar Sankranti> > should be observed on the Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as> > the Makar Sankranti and the Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when> the> > Sun enters the Nirayana Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This> should> > not be taken an excuse to derail the making of the authentic Hindu> > Calendar".> > >> > > I wish the member concerned had shunned his tamoguni budhi, and> > purused at least the following excerpts from my post No.8373 of Feb> > 25,09--hardly of a few days back! And I quote just a few relevant> paras:> > >> > > "4. It is thus futile to talk about the Vedic rashis being so called> > sayana or so called nirayana since you cannot discuss the qualities> and> > qualifications of a non-existent entity! Such gimmicks are used only> in> > predictive astrology like kala-sarpa yoga/dosha by "invisible" lunar> > nodes, which are just mathematical points--- or imaginary Dreshkana> and> > saptamasha and what not divisions of imaginary twelve equal divisions> of> > Mesha etc. rashis and "correct phalita" through imaginary vimshotari> and> > ashtotari and yogini and kalachakra and hundreds of such dashas etc.> > etc.! Such gimmicks, however, cannot work in astronomy, which demands> > proofs for any claims made!> > >> > > "The nirayana versus sayana mess that has derailed the Hindu> calendar> > is actually a creation of Hindu jyotishis (who call themselves Vedic> > astrologers (sic!) these days! It is actually the difference of the> > calculated longitudes of the Surya Sidhanta vis-à-vis the actual> > phenomena of Winter Solstice etc. that is known as Ayanamsha! For> > example, the Surya Sidhanta says categorically, "Bhanor Makara> > Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat shanmasa> > dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with the> ingress> > of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinayana start> > with its ingress into Karkata rashi" but when it comes to its> > calculation, there is a difference of about 24 days/degrees between> the> > actual Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti and the Surya Sidhanta> calculated> > Makar Sankranti as on date!"> > > ....> > > ...> > >> > > "7. Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, therefore, are a direct import from> > Babylonia via the Greeks and all the sidhantas, right from the Surya> > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha to the last sidhanta of Bhaskara-II viz.> > the Sidhanta Shiromani have invariably talked about Makara Sankranti> > being another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti being another> > name of Dakshinayana and so on. As I have gone through almost all the> > sidhantas, I can assure you that none of the sidhanta-kars had any> idea> > about the phenomenon of precession!> > > " However, all the Puranas like Bhagavata, Shiva, Linga, Devi etc.> > etc. also talk of the same phenomena as the sidhantas i.e. "Makar> > Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti another> > name of Dakshinayana" and so on. (Pl. see 1999b.doc). As such, the> > Pauranic rahis are an after thought and a development of> > post-Surya-Sidhanta era! ......"> > > *** **** ***** ***** ****> > > And the most important point that appears to be the nightmare of the> > "Vedic astrologers" is (from the same post):> > >> > > "Thus if we really want to streamline our calendars in accordance> with> > the Vedas and Puranas, the earlier we come out of the stupor of Mesha,> > Vrisha etc. rashsis the better! If at all it is a necessary evil to> have> > rashis included in the calendar, the only alternative is that we have> to> > include the so called sayana Rashis, since they are the ones found in> > the Puranas and sidhantas (and not in the Vedas or the VJ etc.) but we> > have to simultaneously de-link Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras from> the> > same.> > >> > > That is the only and only way to streamline the Hindu calendar as> per> > the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha and even Puranas."> > > ** **** *** ***> > > Then again, on perusal of post No.8374 and the "list of correct> dates> > of festivals in 2009-10" in the files section, things will be all the> > more clear that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, being actually non-existent> > divisions, are imaginary and are being clubbed with Uttarayana etc.> only> > as a substitute of the baseless and useless nirayana mess! It is only> to> > "choose the lesser of two evils"---since if some states take Meshadi> as> > the start of the new solar year, they have to be informed that it must> > be a so called sayana Meshadi since Vishuva (Vernal Equinox) and not> > Meshadi is the real start of new solar year, and so on.> > > Hope these "Vedic astrologers" will not make a laughing stock of> > themselves any more by creating nirayana versus sayana controversies> and> > so on.> > > I also pray to God that He save the Hindus from the clutches of> "Vedic> > astrologers" ---whetehr sayana Vedic or nirayana Vedic so that we can> > streamline our calendars in accordance with the scriputres and not as> > per the whims of Lahiri-walas and Ramana-walas and Chandra-Hariwalas> and> > so on.> > > With regards,> > > A K Kaul> > >> > > IndiaArchaeology, Sunil Bhattacharjya> > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > >> > > > Thank you Iyengarji,> > > >> > > > So you agree that Makar Sankranti could not have been linked to> > Uttarayana in the ancient past as Makara Sankramana itself was not> > mentioned in the literature of the ancient past. So why should Avtarji> > and others insist that Makar Sankranti should be observed on the> > Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as the Makar Sankranti and > the> > Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the Sun enters the Nirayana> > Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should not be taken an> excuse> > to derail the making of the authentic Hindu Calendar.> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > --- On Wed, 3/4/09, aareni aareni@ wrote:> > > >> > > > aareni aareni@> > > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage> > scientists> > > > IndiaArchaeology> > > > Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 4:55 PM> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > This is a leading question of Lawyers who are supposed to ask> "when> > did you stop beating your wife?". Firstly where in the whole of> > canonical Vedic literature (Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, Vedanga)> Makara> > Sakramana is mentioned??! !!> > > >> > > > RNI> > > >> > > > IndiaArchaeology, "sunil_bhattacharjy a"> > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Avtarji,> > > > >> > > > > May I request both you and Dr. Iyengar to please let us know, by> > > > > giving the actual reference only, as to where is it said in the> > Vedic> > > > > literature that the Uttarayana must always coincide with the> Makar> > > > > Sankramana just because there was such a coincidence at one> time.> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > >> > > > > IndiaArchaeology, "jyotirved"> > <jyotirved@>> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dr. R. N. Iyengarji,> > > > > >> > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > It was really an excellent and to the point post about the> > pathetic> > > > > state of> > > > > > affairs regarding all our festivals--- fasts and muhurtas> > especially the> > > > > > comments, "Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also> > pointed> > > > > out this> > > > > > in my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated> > with> > > > > Makara> > > > > > Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got> > muddled> > > > > up is> > > > > > no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. Evidences are> > there> > > > > for every> > > > > > Hindu to see.>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I had been waiting with a bated breath for comments from the> > learned> > > > > members> > > > > > of this and other forums to which I had forwarded your post> > > > > regarding the> > > > > > wrong method of fixing Makara Sankranti and other Sankrantis.> I> > was> > > > > under> > > > > > the impression that maybe people have become accustomed to my> > > > > "hollering"> > > > > > that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days and> have> > stopped> > > > > > taking my statements seriously, but they will certainly> respond> > to> > > > > the post> > > > > > of a scientist and Vedic scholar of your standing. But I am> > really> > > > > > disappointed on such a deafening silence from everybody even> to> > your> > > > > post!> > > > > > Such a silence is certainly not a healthy indication of a real> > cultural> > > > > > interaction!> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > <High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> > openly and> > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam on> a> > day> > > > > other> > > > > > than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should also> > > > > interpret the> > > > > > modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at the four> > > > > sankrantis> > > > > > (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the ancient> Vedic> > > > > texts. The> > > > > > above four sankramanas are the four corners >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I had sent letters by registered post together with my> > panchangas> > > > > quite a> > > > > > few years back to all the six Shankaracharyas, besides quite a> > few other> > > > > > dharmacharyas, explaining to them the sorry state of affairs> of> > our> > > > > > festivals and muhurtas in detail. (Pl. see Shankara.doc in> files> > > > > section). I> > > > > > did not get any response from any dharmacharya in spite of my> > several> > > > > > reminders.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > As I had sent copies of my such letters to all the leading> > > > > panchangamakers> > > > > > in the country, including Janmabhoomi (Gujarati) in Mumbai, a> > > > > gentleman in> > > > > > the HinduCalendar forum pointed out to me the "adjudication"> by> > > > > Jagadguru> > > > > > Shankaracharya of Kanchikamakoti Peetha that is being> > > > > printed/published in> > > > > > Janmabhoomi Panchanga every year. I am forwarding a copy of> that> > > > > > translation from HinduCalendar forum to this forum for perusal> > of> > > > > all the> > > > > > members.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > It will be evident from that post that the Swamigal had put> the> > ball> > > > > in the> > > > > > court (lap!?) of nirayana astrologers for "adjudication"> instead> > of> > > > > doing> > > > > > some serious thinking on an issue of such importance himself,> > and no> > > > > wonder> > > > > > that the nirayana astrologers have advised the Acharya that we> > must> > > > > continue> > > > > > to follow Lahiri Ayanamsha for horoscopy as well as festivals> > and> > > > > muhurtas!> > > > > > It is just like late N C Lahiri, as Secretary of Saha Calendar> > Reform> > > > > > Committee, asking Hindu astrologers their views about the> > > > > Rashichakra that> > > > > > must be followed for festivals and muhurtas and no wonder> almost> > all the> > > > > > jyotishis had, in unison, opined that it must be> "Chitrapaksha"> > .> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dharmacharya> > > > > Sabha headed> > > > > > by Sri Swami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great regard)> > > > > refutes me> > > > > > and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of January> > 14th> > > > > is the> > > > > > real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that Krishna mentions in> > the> > > > > > Bhagavadgita. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > It has been my sad experience over the last about fifteen> years> > that> > > > > neither> > > > > > any dharmacharya nor any "Vamadeva" nor any "Parashara" etc.> > etc.> > > > > responds> > > > > > to any inconvenient questions, correct answers to which may> put> > them at> > > > > > loggerheads with their followers/shishyas, ninety-nine per> cent> > of> > > > > whom are> > > > > > "Vedic astrologers" i.e. Lahiri Makar-Sankranti- walas! These> > > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > > and "Parasharas" and "Vamadevas" etc. etc. are also in a> > Catch-22> > > > > situation:> > > > > > If they take a correct stand now and advise their shishyas and> > > > > followers to> > > > > > follow correct dates for festivals and muhurtas in future, it> > may affect> > > > > > their own standing adversely, since maybe they are afraid of> > being> > > > > > questioned as to why they had been advocating a wrong gamut of> > > > > calendars and> > > > > > even horoscopy till date! The dilemma of dharmacharyas will be> > > > > evident from> > > > > > a separate mail titled "I do not want to lose my pontiff's> > seat".> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > These "Vamadevas" and "Parasharas" and maybe even> dharmacharyas,> > on the> > > > > > other hand, set their shishyas and followers on the job of> > > > > rabble-rousing,> > > > > > and instead of refuting any of the points raised by me, these> > > > > shishyas and> > > > > > followers go on abusing me left and right by calling me a> Muslim> > > > > convert or> > > > > > a Xtian being funded by Missionaries and so on with the pious> > hope> > > > > that I> > > > > > will just give up in exasperation!> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > However, those shishyas and followers, including their mentors> > and> > > > > acharyas,> > > > > > are entirely mistaken in the assessment of the outcome of a> > dharmayudha!> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Regarding Bhagvadgita, Bhagwan Krishna has said in the same> Gita> > that a> > > > > > person with tamoguni budhi sees dharma as adharma and adharma> as> > dharma!> > > > > > And since the dharmacharyas and even some "Parasharas" and> > > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > > also are supposed to have read at least the Gita, if no other> > > > > shastra, they> > > > > > are thus proving themselves to have been enveloped by tamoguni> > budhi> > > > > as they> > > > > > are seeing wrong dates of festivals as correct ones and> > vice-versa!> > > > > They> > > > > > are also too cowardly to either admit it openly or to prove> the> > > > > other party> > > > > > wrong!> > > > > >> > > > > > It is evident from the fact that a "his holiness of art of one> > thing> > > > > or the> > > > > > other" had put his stamp of approval on the date of birth of> > Bhagwan> > > > > Ram as> > > > > > January 14, 5114 BCE, at about noon, not because "his> holiness"> > had> > > > > > visualized that date of Bhagwan Ram through his tapasya, but> > maybe only> > > > > > because the date of January 14, 5114 BCE, had been fixed by> some> > > > > Income Tax> > > > > > Commissioner! After all, one cannot be on the wrong side of> the> > > > > powers that> > > > > > be, in spite of that "one" being a "his holiness of the art of> > > > > something or> > > > > > the other".> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > It is only because of such sad experiences with dharmacharyas> > and> > > > > "top notch> > > > > > Vedic astrologers" and even the Govt. of India etc. etc. that> I> > am> > > > > keeping> > > > > > all these facts and figures before a common man so that he> sees> > for> > > > > himself> > > > > > as to how he is being taken for a ride in the name of "Vedic> > > > > astrology" by> > > > > > dharmacharyas as well as jyotishaharyas and even the Rashtriya> > > > > Panchanga.> > > > > > The general public must now stand up in revolt of such> > atrocities so> > > > > that we> > > > > > stop celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days> > > > > because of the> > > > > > wrong advice and "adjudication" of these very acharyas and> > > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > > etc. whom we are treating as our friends, philosophers and> > guides.> > > > > >> > > > > > And that is why I keep on repeating, "we do not need enemies> to> > ruin our> > > > > > dharma if we have 'friendly Vedic astrologers' together with> > > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > > around to do that job by making us celebrate Uttarayana on> > January> > > > > 14 and> > > > > > Pitra-amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali and so on.> > > > > >> > > > > > It is again a Clarion call to all the Hindu members of the> > society> > > > > to wake> > > > > > up, wake up and wake up!> > > > > >> > > > > > With kind personal regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > A K Kaul> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > hinducivilization, "aareni" <aareni@>> > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > >Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed out> > this in> > > > > >> > > > > > > my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated> > with> > > > > >> > > > > > > Makara Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara> > sankranti got> > > > > >> > > > > > > muddled up is no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity.> > > > > >> > > > > > > Evidences are there for every Hindu to see. I had heard that> > Sangha> > > > > >> > > > > > > Parivar had decided to observe Sankranti on 22 December. I> > don't know> > > > > >> > > > > > > whether this info is correct or not. If yes, then GREAT> > otherwise> > > > > >> > > > > > > well phu! phu!> > > > > >> > > > > > > High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> > openly and> > > > > >> > > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam> on> > a day> > > > > >> > > > > > > other than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They> > should also> > > > > >> > > > > > > interpret the modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of> > TarpaNam at> > > > > >> > > > > > > the four sankrantis (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly> as> > per the> > > > > >> > > > > > > ancient Vedic texts. The above four sankramanas are the four> > corners> > > > > >> > > > > > > of Hindu religious observances of all castes and sects. Many> > > > > >> > > > > > > festivals have also originated based on their positions.> > Observing> > > > > >> > > > > > > Uttarayana on the wrong day (I am not talking of the time)> is> > as> > > > > >> > > > > > > wrong as observing Amaavaasya on Chaturthi! Of course no one> > does> > > > > >> > > > > > > this mistake, simply because it is easy to see whether moon> is> > > > > >> > > > > > > visible or not (at least approximately) . Uttarayana was> also> > fixed by> > > > > >> > > > > > > observations in the Vedic past [see the Mahavrata, Pravargya> > and the> > > > > >> > > > > > > 21 day rituals] and NOT BY CONSULTING AN ASTROLOGER'S WRONG> > PANCANGA.> > > > > >> > > > > > > I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the> Dharmacharya> > Sabha> > > > > >> > > > > > > headed by Sri SWami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in> great> > regard)> > > > > >> > > > > > > refutes me and convinces me that the present Makara> Sankranti> > of> > > > > >> > > > > > > January 14th is the real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one> that> > > > > >> > > > > > > Krishna mentions in the Bhagavadgita.> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > RN Iyengar> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Avtar Krishen> > Kaul"> > > > > >> > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Just one example will suffice:> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Pongal--cum- Makar-Sankranti is supposed to be a seasonal> > festival.> > > > > >> > > > > > > > But if Pongal is clubbed with Lahiri Makar Sankrnati, as> is> > being> > > > > >> > > > > > > > done by "Vedic astrologers" , it means it has been going> on> > > > > >> > > > > > > advancing> > > > > >> > > > > > > > by one day every 72 years. Thus it must have coincided> with> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Uttarayana viz. the Winter Solstice in 285 AD---the zero> > year of> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Lahiriwalas!> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Prior to that, say in about 1400 BCE, the period of the> > Vedanga> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Jyotisha, Lahiri-Pongal- cum-Lahiri- Makar-Sankranti was> > about twenty-> > > > > >> > > > > > > > four days (at the rate of one day for every seventy-two> > years for> > > > > >> > > > > > > > 1400+285=1685 years) before Uttarayana i.e. around the> > beginning of> > > > > >> > > > > > > > November in 1400 BCE as per the Julian calendar, if there> > could be> > > > > >> > > > > > > > any such calendar then!> > > > > >> > > > > > > > It means that Pongal would have been then exactly 24 days> > prior to> > > > > >> > > > > > > > the real Uttarayana as it is ahead these days! What type> of> > a> > > > > >> > > > > > > > seasonal festival is it then?> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

March 15, 2009

Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji, Well Said! I specially liked the below statement ==>> basically the typical defeated Hindu's mentality, is to attack the

one who "did not" protect you, rather than the one who destroyed you.

And Sri AKK is just one such defeated Hindu. <== True! I agree with you.Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Well if we look up the earliest documents he wrote, it is clear that his hate for astrology comes from > > 1. the fact that astrologers have failed to predict/stop the plight of Kashmiri pandits - here his attack is totally misdirected > 2. fake astrologers - here he should attack the mindset that creates such frauds and not a subject > > basically the typical defeated Hindu's mentality, is to attack the one who "did not" protect you, rather than the one who destroyed you. And Sri AKK is just one such defeated Hindu. > > ________________________________> bhagavathi_hariharan bhagavathi_hariharan > Saturday, March 14, 2009 7:53:35 AM> [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientists> > > Dear all,> > I have never interacted with Shri. Kaul. All I know is that he is against astrolgy. Occasionally I get mails from him as a mailing list. I delete those without reading. I have close ties with a kashmiri pandit. His name is also "Avtar". The only grand festival the pundits celebrate is "Maha Sivaratiri" (as told to me by him). In the US, all festivals are celebrated only over the weekend. Then why is Shri. Kaul making a big issue of all festivals and calendars.> > In one of his writings, I came across the fact that his frustration with astrology arose from the fact that despite having mastered all classics and spending several years, his predictions were only 50% right. > > So the bottom line is, all those who are against astrology have tried to learn the subject, have learned but have failed to predict. If I was to be one among them I would do yet another research to see why my predictions fail. Should we continue to propagate these chain messages from people who cannot accept failure as a way of life?> > Regards,> bhagavathi>

March 15, 2009

Dear Bhaskar ji, Well said! By the way are we not getting obsessed with AKK and PGB? Another question is - is it not true that the fight or write-ups against AKK helped some of us to produce good articles or to improve our own understanding and argumentative skills regarding the foundations of nirayana astrology? So while accepting the fact that AKK is a pedestrian journalistic superfluous argumentative failed foolish old man with half baked knowledge, with an agenda of his own, and missionary zeal, (possibly getting paid by westerners or missionaries as well) - his approach was in a way useful to many of us since our stands where diametrically opposite to his. But this cannot be said about Sanat Jain or PGB since Sanat was not having even a pedestrian knowledge about astrology and science (even though against astrology and in support of science without understanding what is science) and PGB not having even a pedestrian knowledge (even though in support of astrology). In their journalistic approach PGB, Rohini Ranjan etc all fall into the same category of AKK and Sanat; whether some of them are against astrology or some in support of astrology does not make much difference. A cute fact about AKK and Sanat that can be observed is that both of them are failed individuals who tried to learn astrology (especially Western Tropical astrology) in their superfluous pedestrian approach and pathetically failed in their own efforts to do predictions. Like most of failed individuals without a will to accept the failure they ascribed it to astrology, than to themselves! The same thing happened with their approach to religion as well! Even though a Jain by birth and name tail, Sanat is unaware of the depth of knowledge of his own Jain tradition and is an ignorant ethicist as of now; a rationalist without rational behavior and thought. The same is true about AKK as well. Even though a Tantric Kaul by birth and name tail, Avatar Krishan is unaware of the depth of knowledge of his own Kaula Tantric tradition and is an ignorant missionary as of now; a pedestrian scholar who does argumentation of a living and payment (possibly a mere paid kooli). Possibly even though aware about the destruction he is trying to cause to the indian religion, culture and knowledge foundation, due to his missionary zeal and efforts he is currently successful even in making some hindu forums blindfold! Alas about those blinks hinduists for the pit of erroneous logic they fall into! So the point is AKK stands a bit ahead from the other fools mentioned above, since he was successful in making a hindu forum misunderstood, and in blind folding even people like Iyengar, Aareni , VedPrakash etc etc. He is still able to blame the "Mlechhas" even in a group where the moderator owner S. Kalyanaraman ji argues that Mlechhas are the true indians and that it was the name for Meluha (Harappa) and also that "Mleccha Vikalpa" was the ancient language of India. It is fun to view such seen and I appreciate AKK for giving us the pleasure of seeing even this foolishness of so called 'fundametalist' hindus. ;=)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish wrote:>> > Dear Shankara ji,> > 1) He is not true to his own " Kaum". He talks rubbish about his own> ancestors. He does not talk with repsect about the Vedas, Gods, The> Spiritual men, and the Great masters of India. So how can he be helped> when he cannot help himself or his own class of people whom he is> denigrating 24 hours of the day.? Astrologers like me are doing more for> the Kashmiri Pundits then he ever could even dream of. We are using the> pen in almost all Hindu groups talking on the atrocities committed on> the Kashmiri Pundits. But what is he doing ? Except for belittling,> scorn, maligning, defaming,degrading, and maligning his own catse , men> and religions he is doing nothing. In fact he is acting like a> "Jaichand" of Prithviraj era.> > 2) yes he is attacking astrology because he could not learn the art of> prediction. He has faced fake astrologers, and so have we too, but we> took the right path of learning astrology from the genuine Masters,> instead of wasting our life and time in 24 x 7 criticising, like one> Group Moderator Prashant GB ( JR) is doing for "Bhaskar" all the time.> He is so obssessed by Bhaskar that in each and every post he will take> out some way to write about Bhaskar and try to defame him and show him> in bad light. This is what Kaul does for his own religion, for their> caretakers, for his ancestors, for his religious texts and for the great> treasures given to us by these great men of India.> > Bhaskar.> > > , ShankaraBharadwaj> Khandavalli shankarabharadwaj@ wrote:> >> > Well if we look up the earliest documents he wrote, it is clear that> his hate for astrology comes from> >> > 1. the fact that astrologers have failed to predict/stop the plight of> Kashmiri pandits - here his attack is totally misdirected> > 2. fake astrologers - here he should attack the mindset that creates> such frauds and not a subject> >> > basically the typical defeated Hindu's mentality, is to attack the one> who "did not" protect you, rather than the one who destroyed you. And> Sri AKK is just one such defeated Hindu.

March 15, 2009

Dear Sreenadhji,

// By the way are we not getting obsessed with AKK and PGB? //

Agreed. I had forgotten about AKK, but messages regarding him in this Group, reminded me of him. PGB ( You made a smart short form which is less obstructive)is a character I do not wish to meet in any Life time, and the last person i want on my mind, but he often writes about me in the Group which he owns (Sorry, he is a moderator of)using that platform for personal venom , and some member or the other points out to me, that he has written about me, and so his memory on me is forced without my wish.

// is it not true that the fight or write-ups against AKK> helped some of us to produce good articles or to improve our own > understanding and argumentative skills regarding the foundations of > nirayana astrology //

I agree to this, and I have never rejected that he does not know about astronomy. He has certainly contributed unknowingly to what you have mentioned.

// But this cannot be said about Sanat Jain> or PGB since Sanat was not having even a pedestrian knowledge about > astrology and science (even though against astrology and in support of > science without understanding what is science) and PGB not having even > a pedestrian knowledge (even though in support of astrology) //

Sanat is a comedian and a blot in name of Hindus. He actually needs a Circus to show case his joker antics. I am sure he will find a job in one, now since holding 4 legged animals in Circus has been banned since few years. They will start looking for 2 legged ones soon.

About PGB he is not supporting astrology, but just using it for

personal gains of all sorts, in his attempts to project himself as a astrologer , though he does not have a single ounce of knowledge in it, and has never been seen to discuss about the principles of same in any Group till date. He is just like a small foolish brat in some primary school who tosses a coin and 50% of his utterances which will

produce Heads, he wil glean and pride upon them. He also uses the name of the Great master BV raman, to fall back upon when his predictions fail. He creates fights between astrologers, just to rule the roost. he removes the good astrologers from the Group he

moderates , so ultimately he can never contribute to astrology nor astrologers. PGB had in distant past put a "Abuse Mails by Bhaskar" in the Group he moderates, which listed all my mails where I had abused certain people who had misbehaved. Does a person who support astrology, will defile a Astrological forum like this for personal

jealousy and vengeance ? If it was his own Group, would he have defiled it by placing such a File there ? At that moment even few Sex files were posted in that Group Files section. I had pointed this out to Mr.Tanvir, The Group owner, and also told him and PGB in straight

language that if the abuse File in my name is not removed from there, then be ready for a retributionary response from me, after which he removed that File from there. Are such people the caretakers of Indian astrology ? No, they never can be. They can just be the

black sheep of the community. Look what happened to the Group which Tanvir gave to him for moderatorship . At that time when this PGB joined the forum as a moderator, the membership of JR and VA was around 8000 each . JR has fallen from that figure, while VA has moved forward to around 11000+. This PGB is a blot in name of Astrology and nothing more.He is contniously writing hate mails about me showing me in bad light. I can do this in my own Group continously too, and post some Files in his name too, but we dont wish to come down to that

level, and neither wish to defile our Groups, is the only reason that he is spared uptil now.

RRji is a smart man in English literary, but at times he gives me an impression that he does not have a back bone, becaue he

very clearly shows a servile attitude to the Group moderator where he writes.

// So the point is AKK stands a bit> ahead from the other fools mentioned above //

Agreed.

Love and regards,

Bhaskar.

, "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Bhaskar ji,> Well said! > > By the way are we not getting obsessed with AKK and PGB? Another> question is - is it not true that the fight or write-ups against AKK> helped some of us to produce good articles or to improve our own> understanding and argumentative skills regarding the foundations of> nirayana astrology? So while accepting the fact that AKK is a pedestrian> journalistic superfluous argumentative failed foolish old man with half> baked knowledge, with an agenda of his own, and missionary zeal, > (possibly getting paid by westerners or missionaries as well) - his> approach was in a way useful to many of us since our stands where> diametrically opposite to his. But this cannot be said about Sanat Jain> or PGB since Sanat was not having even a pedestrian knowledge about> astrology and science (even though against astrology and in support of> science without understanding what is science) and PGB not having even> a pedestrian knowledge (even though in support of astrology). In their> journalistic approach PGB, Rohini Ranjan etc all fall into the same> category of AKK and Sanat; whether some of them are against astrology or> some in support of astrology does not make much difference. A cute fact> about AKK and Sanat that can be observed is that both of them are failed> individuals who tried to learn astrology (especially Western Tropical> astrology) in their superfluous pedestrian approach and pathetically> failed in their own efforts to do predictions. Like most of failed> individuals without a will to accept the failure they ascribed it to> astrology, than to themselves! The same thing happened with their> approach to religion as well! Even though a Jain by birth and name tail,> Sanat is unaware of the depth of knowledge of his own Jain tradition> and is an ignorant ethicist as of now; a rationalist without rational> behavior and thought. The same is true about AKK as well. Even> though a Tantric Kaul by birth and name tail, Avatar Krishan is unaware> of the depth of knowledge of his own Kaula Tantric tradition and is an> ignorant missionary as of now; a pedestrian scholar who does> argumentation of a living and payment (possibly a mere paid kooli).> Possibly even though aware about the destruction he is trying to cause> to the indian religion, culture and knowledge foundation, due to his> missionary zeal and efforts he is currently successful even in making> some hindu forums blindfold! Alas about those blinks hinduists for the> pit of erroneous logic they fall into! So the point is AKK stands a bit> ahead from the other fools mentioned above, since he was successful in> making a hindu forum misunderstood, and in blind folding even people> like Iyengar, Aareni <http://profiles./aareni> , VedPrakash> etc etc. He is still able to blame the "Mlechhas" even in a group> where the moderator owner S. Kalyanaraman ji argues that Mlechhas are> the true indians and that it was the name for Meluha (Harappa) and also> that "Mleccha Vikalpa" was the ancient language of India. It is fun to> view such seen and I appreciate AKK for giving us the pleasure of> seeing even this foolishness of so called 'fundametalist' hindus. ;=)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "Bhaskar"> bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:> >> >> > Dear Shankara ji,> >> > 1) He is not true to his own " Kaum". He talks rubbish about his own> > ancestors. He does not talk with repsect about the Vedas, Gods, The> > Spiritual men, and the Great masters of India. So how can he be helped> > when he cannot help himself or his own class of people whom he is> > denigrating 24 hours of the day.? Astrologers like me are doing more> for> > the Kashmiri Pundits then he ever could even dream of. We are using> the> > pen in almost all Hindu groups talking on the atrocities committed on> > the Kashmiri Pundits. But what is he doing ? Except for belittling,> > scorn, maligning, defaming,degrading, and maligning his own catse ,> men> > and religions he is doing nothing. In fact he is acting like a> > "Jaichand" of Prithviraj era.> >> > 2) yes he is attacking astrology because he could not learn the art of> > prediction. He has faced fake astrologers, and so have we too, but we> > took the right path of learning astrology from the genuine Masters,> > instead of wasting our life and time in 24 x 7 criticising, like one> > Group Moderator Prashant GB ( JR) is doing for "Bhaskar" all the time.> > He is so obssessed by Bhaskar that in each and every post he will take> > out some way to write about Bhaskar and try to defame him and show him> > in bad light. This is what Kaul does for his own religion, for their> > caretakers, for his ancestors, for his religious texts and for the> great> > treasures given to us by these great men of India.> >> > Bhaskar.> >> >> > , ShankaraBharadwaj> > Khandavalli shankarabharadwaj@ wrote:> > >> > > Well if we look up the earliest documents he wrote, it is clear that> > his hate for astrology comes from> > >> > > 1. the fact that astrologers have failed to predict/stop the plight> of> > Kashmiri pandits - here his attack is totally misdirected> > > 2. fake astrologers - here he should attack the mindset that creates> > such frauds and not a subject> > >> > > basically the typical defeated Hindu's mentality, is to attack the> one> > who "did not" protect you, rather than the one who destroyed you. And> > Sri AKK is just one such defeated Hindu.>

March 15, 2009

Dear Sunil Nair ji, Well said. :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:>> > dear sreenadh ji ,bhaskar ji ,sankar bhardwaj ji and sunil b ji and all> others> > we shud understand the mission of kaul as he is financed by some grps to> take tirade against astrology as the fact is hindus dont got converted> even after 1000s of yrs of foriegn attacks and the others sections ( who> is financing )knows that the strnght of hindus is astrology and not> vedas ,because the ppl who r not willing to convert even after all lot> of persuation is because they hav a workable science in frnt of them> which is prooving strnght of indian thoughts .Than they knows every word> in vedas .So destruction of this astrology become prime objuct .> > > > The plighht of kashmiri pundits is self invited one as they terrorised> the king of utter dire consequence when some sanyasi offer re converting> all ppl who embraced islam as he already got promise frm many grps (> they treatened him that they will suicide if even one man is re> converted and remind him abt brahmana shapa ( curse ) which the king> dont want to aquire ) ,because they thought they can enjoy all para> phernalia of religion without any treats frm other high cast hindus .and> the rest is history .It has nothing to do with astrology and hindu Gods> r not semitic gods who wanted to take revenge on PPL who dont follow dos> and do not s of their religions .> > > > kaul is always talking semitic in ideas and his curses .where god> explained in Geeeta that it is our karma that creates our destiny than u> simply worship him without going to ur work or duty ( dharma mama is> esssense of hindus means duty first ) .-Think abt our farmers doing only> japa and not agriculture work 24 hrs .> > his failure in astrology is simply a cover as i know even any successful> predictions which done long back also he blasts with asking questions,> asking to disclose methodology .Any person without a valid guru cannot> master an y indian sastras as u need a lite to guide u .So many self> -taught gurus turns negetiv is common ,by reading books no one can> become a shilpi ,manta expert or tantric or even one good astrologer .> > My frnds and students asked him many times take one shloka in any Hora> and explain it if he has realy 50 yrs exp as he claims ,where as he> claims he knows every astro system on earth .We realy even dont know who> realy taught him astrology and which parampara it is .> > more in next> > > > with regrds sunil nair> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sunil ji,> > That was an informative mail. Thanks.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "sunil nair"> > astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > hare rama krishna> > >> > > dear sunil Bhattacharjya ji> > >> > > let us discard kaul for his wilful deliberate and designed to spread> > > confusion utterance s>he is on this mission without any monetary> > benefit> > > for last 25 yrs is undigestable and he has all the time and> resources> > > too and never short of anything ,so we can very well understand that> > he> > > is on missionary work than creating a calender which is not workable> > > .And vedas discuss abt solar ( saura and savana ) calenders and that> > is> > > basic calender any primitiv man can create as it is observable and> > easy> > > to make .then only this lunar and nakshatra calenders happened> ,which> > is> > > mathematical one and without a rasi concept again it is not possible> > > ,with rasis only jupiterian calnders possible as it is taken as time> > > taken by jupiter to move in one rasi ,so every thing is understood> and> > > nothing shud b prooved .when some one discuss some thing every> > sentence> > > we dont need to tell or explain basics ewhich is a common prasctise> > too> > > ,so asking proof of everything in vedas is simply bull shit .The> > meaning> > > ofthye word vedas is ultimate knowledge secured till day and which> > is> > > regrded sacredbecause hindus ( means all indian religions including> > > jaina ,budha ,saiva ,tantric etc ) take any knowledge as sacred ,so> > > astrology is jyotirveda and ayurveda and stpata veda and all other> 64> > > branches of science generated this way only here veda means knowldge> > not> > > that it means u can see its full text in vedas ( which is devided> > by> > > veda vyasa as 4 vedas )> > >> > > all his questions r like this and he has no proof too ,that we got> > > everything frm greeks or chaldeans than his support he support his> > > argumnt with any proofs .europeans using right hand to eat is not> our> > > mistake ,it is univerdal truth and phinomenon ,so universal truth> may> > be> > > adopted by many races ( i dont want to belittle any race or culture> )> > > .india has already proof of many things frm BC 10000 that we hav> > defenit> > > systems and culture than greek or roman or chalderans own its own> > >> > >> > >> > > also any scinece ( satra ) to survive ,devlp or even 2 grow it needs> a> > > philosophical backing ( like janma punarnma and advaita etc ahm> > brhmasmi> > > ) ,so if some one in greek mentions some thing means it is pirated> > than> > > we got frm them .otherwise kaul has to demonstrte how they arrived> it> > > and how and why it has not been followed further .> > >> > > His fvrite argumnt is yavans are greeks and maya is a greek man> which> > is> > > not possible even frm greek history as it is his ignorence or wilful> > > agenda ( actualy he--kaul - is trying to become one to destroy hindu> > > culture ,which he blame on maya the asura ) he is repeating every> > thing> > > again and again even after it is prooved by many ,still he will use> > > same adjectives which u explained in mail plus he is depending on> xian> > > missionary trnslations than he know s any sanskrit,because it is> never> > > heard in any where history than some one created some thing to fool> > > others -here we hindus and it is blindly followed by all hindus .( i> > > mean surya sidhanta and i even asked one of my frnd to ask Kaul to> > > create such a treatise if it is so easy or if any one can do it,pls> > ask> > > him to show me . which is close to modern finding and v v v minor> > errors> > > are projected by kaul as big mistakes ) and the truth is hindus> > observed> > > all this not to sent satelite or make a coloney in space but to> > observe> > > festivals and various vedic rituals and predict matters related> > country> > > and persons as our prapancha bodham was like that ,we blv that we r> > mini> > > brahmandam ,so any thing happening in space is also possible to make> > an> > > impact in mini cosmos which is pindandam which is very much close to> > > advaita philosophy too.Without a utility part no PPL will follow> > > anything for such a long time ,even many rituals even changed but> not> > > astrology or such scinces> > >> > > if he has objections ask him to explain ( than we keep on teaching> him> > > so as to find more alternativ argumnts and i blv it shud b done with> a> > > strong moderation ( i mean a judge shud b there ) than he is left> > like> > > a loose dog to wander frm grps to grps and haunt ppl and call names> or> > > attack in personals mails ))what is purusha sukta and its purpose (> to> > > know his vast knowledge in sanskrit ) and ask him to define how> hindus> > > arrived the lunar calender and panchanga and thithies .He never> > explaind> > > this ( as some one who is my student has asked him this 100 times> and> > he> > > never bother to answer it and was keep on running away without> > answering> > > it ) and such a fool is arguing for a unsuccessful calender and all> > > hindu fools in many hindu forums thinks he has lot of brain and> > knowldge> > > and he is talking some sense and it is what is in vedas> > >> > >> > >> > > better i talk after his explnations> > >> > >> > >> > > other wise we r waisting our time and even money ( as he is getting> it> > > in millions and he needs to show proof too to his masters )> > >> > >> > >> > > sorry for all mistakes in typing ( as i type and will not re read it> > b4> > > posting )> > >> > >> > >> > > regrds sunil nair> > >> > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > >> > >> > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya> > > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Shri Avtarji,> > > >> > > > Namaste,> > > >> > > > Can I refer to your following statement ?> > > >> > > > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)"> > the> > > previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they> are> > > actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!"> > > >> > > > I shall be highly grateful if you kindly clarify as to where and> > when> > > did any Vedic astrologer claim that they can pre-see janmas and> > foresee> > > the future janmas as well. To my knowledge Lord Buddha could see his> > > past janmas only when he got spiritual enlightenment. Trikalajna> > > Rishis are said to be able to see the past, present and the future.> > To> > > my knowledge the Vedic astrologers think that the natal horoscope> > > reflects only the effects of the past karma in this life. However> this> > > is not say that no karma of this life will have any effect in this> > life> > > at all.> > > >> > > > I fully agree with your quotation from the Suryasiddhanta "Bhanor> > > Makara Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat> > > shanmasa dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start> with> > > the ingress of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of> > > Dakshinayana start with its ingress into Karkata rashi".> > > >> > > > To my knowledge the Winter Solstice started occurring in the Makar> > > Rashi from the 19th century BCE and the Winter Solstice continued to> > > occur in the Makar Rashi till the 3rd century CE and after that it> > > started occurring in the Dhanu rashi. This junction of change over> > from> > > Makar Rashi to Dhanu Rashi in the 3rd century CE is memorable and> from> > > that time the Ayanamsha correction started. Astronomically after> > 25,800> > > years from the time in the 3rd century CE the Wnter Solstice should> > > occur again at the junction of change over from Makar Rashi to Dhanu> > > Rashi. In the absence of specific reference to Makar Sankranti in> any> > of> > > the pre-19th century BCE ancient texts it appears reasonable to say> > > that before the 19 th century BCE the Makar Sankranti was not> > observed> > > on the Uttarayana day and therefore there is no need to observe> Makar> > > Sankranti on the Uttarayana day now.> > > >> > > > I would like to have your valuable opinion as to whether you agree> > > with the above analysis and if not why. I am also requesting the> > other> > > reputed scholars of the Jyotish sashtra, who are in these addressed> > > groups, such as Shri Robertsonji, Shri Sreenadhji, Shri Sunil> Nairji,> > > Dr. R.N.Iyengarji, Shri Ajai katesariyaji, Shri Gopal Goelji, Shri> > > vinay jhaji and other scholars with interest in this subject, to> give> > > their valuable opinion on this very crucial matter.> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@> > > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage> > > scientists> > > > IndiaArchaeology > > > > Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:36 AM> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Group,> > > > Namaskar!> > > > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight! ?)"> > the> > > previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they> are> > > actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!> > > >> > > > The following comment from a member is very interesting in this> > > context,"So why should Avtarji and others insist that Makar> Sankranti> > > should be observed on the Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such> as> > > the Makar Sankranti and the Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when> > the> > > Sun enters the Nirayana Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This> > should> > > not be taken an excuse to derail the making of the authentic Hindu> > > Calendar".> > > >> > > > I wish the member concerned had shunned his tamoguni budhi, and> > > purused at least the following excerpts from my post No.8373 of Feb> > > 25,09--hardly of a few days back! And I quote just a few relevant> > paras:> > > >> > > > "4. It is thus futile to talk about the Vedic rashis being so> called> > > sayana or so called nirayana since you cannot discuss the qualities> > and> > > qualifications of a non-existent entity! Such gimmicks are used only> > in> > > predictive astrology like kala-sarpa yoga/dosha by "invisible" lunar> > > nodes, which are just mathematical points--- or imaginary Dreshkana> > and> > > saptamasha and what not divisions of imaginary twelve equal> divisions> > of> > > Mesha etc. rashis and "correct phalita" through imaginary vimshotari> > and> > > ashtotari and yogini and kalachakra and hundreds of such dashas etc.> > > etc.! Such gimmicks, however, cannot work in astronomy, which> demands> > > proofs for any claims made!> > > >> > > > "The nirayana versus sayana mess that has derailed the Hindu> > calendar> > > is actually a creation of Hindu jyotishis (who call themselves Vedic> > > astrologers (sic!) these days! It is actually the difference of the> > > calculated longitudes of the Surya Sidhanta vis-à-vis the actual> > > phenomena of Winter Solstice etc. that is known as Ayanamsha! For> > > example, the Surya Sidhanta says categorically, "Bhanor Makara> > > Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat shanmasa> > > dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with the> > ingress> > > of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinayana> start> > > with its ingress into Karkata rashi" but when it comes to its> > > calculation, there is a difference of about 24 days/degrees between> > the> > > actual Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti and the Surya Sidhanta> > calculated> > > Makar Sankranti as on date!"> > > > ....> > > > ...> > > >> > > > "7. Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, therefore, are a direct import from> > > Babylonia via the Greeks and all the sidhantas, right from the Surya> > > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha to the last sidhanta of Bhaskara-II> viz.> > > the Sidhanta Shiromani have invariably talked about Makara Sankranti> > > being another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti being another> > > name of Dakshinayana and so on. As I have gone through almost all> the> > > sidhantas, I can assure you that none of the sidhanta-kars had any> > idea> > > about the phenomenon of precession!> > > > " However, all the Puranas like Bhagavata, Shiva, Linga, Devi etc.> > > etc. also talk of the same phenomena as the sidhantas i.e. "Makar> > > Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti> another> > > name of Dakshinayana" and so on. (Pl. see 1999b.doc). As such, the> > > Pauranic rahis are an after thought and a development of> > > post-Surya-Sidhanta era! ......"> > > > *** **** ***** ***** ****> > > > And the most important point that appears to be the nightmare of> the> > > "Vedic astrologers" is (from the same post):> > > >> > > > "Thus if we really want to streamline our calendars in accordance> > with> > > the Vedas and Puranas, the earlier we come out of the stupor of> Mesha,> > > Vrisha etc. rashsis the better! If at all it is a necessary evil to> > have> > > rashis included in the calendar, the only alternative is that we> have> > to> > > include the so called sayana Rashis, since they are the ones found> in> > > the Puranas and sidhantas (and not in the Vedas or the VJ etc.) but> we> > > have to simultaneously de-link Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras from> > the> > > same.> > > >> > > > That is the only and only way to streamline the Hindu calendar as> > per> > > the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha and even Puranas."> > > > ** **** *** ***> > > > Then again, on perusal of post No.8374 and the "list of correct> > dates> > > of festivals in 2009-10" in the files section, things will be all> the> > > more clear that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, being actually> non-existent> > > divisions, are imaginary and are being clubbed with Uttarayana etc.> > only> > > as a substitute of the baseless and useless nirayana mess! It is> only> > to> > > "choose the lesser of two evils"---since if some states take Meshadi> > as> > > the start of the new solar year, they have to be informed that it> must> > > be a so called sayana Meshadi since Vishuva (Vernal Equinox) and not> > > Meshadi is the real start of new solar year, and so on.> > > > Hope these "Vedic astrologers" will not make a laughing stock of> > > themselves any more by creating nirayana versus sayana controversies> > and> > > so on.> > > > I also pray to God that He save the Hindus from the clutches of> > "Vedic> > > astrologers" ---whetehr sayana Vedic or nirayana Vedic so that we> can> > > streamline our calendars in accordance with the scriputres and not> as> > > per the whims of Lahiri-walas and Ramana-walas and Chandra-Hariwalas> > and> > > so on.> > > > With regards,> > > > A K Kaul> > > >> > > > IndiaArchaeology, Sunil Bhattacharjya> > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Thank you Iyengarji,> > > > >> > > > > So you agree that Makar Sankranti could not have been linked to> > > Uttarayana in the ancient past as Makara Sankramana itself was not> > > mentioned in the literature of the ancient past. So why should> Avtarji> > > and others insist that Makar Sankranti should be observed on the> > > Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as the Makar Sankranti and> > the> > > Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the Sun enters the Nirayana> > > Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should not be taken an> > excuse> > > to derail the making of the authentic Hindu Calendar.> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --- On Wed, 3/4/09, aareni aareni@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > aareni aareni@> > > > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu> sage> > > scientists> > > > > IndiaArchaeology> > > > > Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 4:55 PM> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > This is a leading question of Lawyers who are supposed to ask> > "when> > > did you stop beating your wife?". Firstly where in the whole of> > > canonical Vedic literature (Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, Vedanga)> > Makara> > > Sakramana is mentioned??! !!> > > > >> > > > > RNI> > > > >> > > > > IndiaArchaeology, "sunil_bhattacharjy> a"> > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Avtarji,> > > > > >> > > > > > May I request both you and Dr. Iyengar to please let us know,> by> > > > > > giving the actual reference only, as to where is it said in> the> > > Vedic> > > > > > literature that the Uttarayana must always coincide with the> > Makar> > > > > > Sankramana just because there was such a coincidence at one> > time.> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > > >> > > > > > IndiaArchaeology, "jyotirved"> > > <jyotirved@>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dr. R. N. Iyengarji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > It was really an excellent and to the point post about the> > > pathetic> > > > > > state of> > > > > > > affairs regarding all our festivals--- fasts and muhurtas> > > especially the> > > > > > > comments, "Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also> > > pointed> > > > > > out this> > > > > > > in my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was> equated> > > with> > > > > > Makara> > > > > > > Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti got> > > muddled> > > > > > up is> > > > > > > no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. Evidences are> > > there> > > > > > for every> > > > > > > Hindu to see.>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I had been waiting with a bated breath for comments from the> > > learned> > > > > > members> > > > > > > of this and other forums to which I had forwarded your post> > > > > > regarding the> > > > > > > wrong method of fixing Makara Sankranti and other> Sankrantis.> > I> > > was> > > > > > under> > > > > > > the impression that maybe people have become accustomed to> my> > > > > > "hollering"> > > > > > > that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days and> > have> > > stopped> > > > > > > taking my statements seriously, but they will certainly> > respond> > > to> > > > > > the post> > > > > > > of a scientist and Vedic scholar of your standing. But I am> > > really> > > > > > > disappointed on such a deafening silence from everybody even> > to> > > your> > > > > > post!> > > > > > > Such a silence is certainly not a healthy indication of a> real> > > cultural> > > > > > > interaction!> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > <High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> > > openly and> > > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam> on> > a> > > day> > > > > > other> > > > > > > than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should> also> > > > > > interpret the> > > > > > > modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at the> four> > > > > > sankrantis> > > > > > > (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the ancient> > Vedic> > > > > > texts. The> > > > > > > above four sankramanas are the four corners >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I had sent letters by registered post together with my> > > panchangas> > > > > > quite a> > > > > > > few years back to all the six Shankaracharyas, besides quite> a> > > few other> > > > > > > dharmacharyas, explaining to them the sorry state of affairs> > of> > > our> > > > > > > festivals and muhurtas in detail. (Pl. see Shankara.doc in> > files> > > > > > section). I> > > > > > > did not get any response from any dharmacharya in spite of> my> > > several> > > > > > > reminders.> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > As I had sent copies of my such letters to all the leading> > > > > > panchangamakers> > > > > > > in the country, including Janmabhoomi (Gujarati) in Mumbai,> a> > > > > > gentleman in> > > > > > > the HinduCalendar forum pointed out to me the "adjudication"> > by> > > > > > Jagadguru> > > > > > > Shankaracharya of Kanchikamakoti Peetha that is being> > > > > > printed/published in> > > > > > > Janmabhoomi Panchanga every year. I am forwarding a copy of> > that> > > > > > > translation from HinduCalendar forum to this forum for> perusal> > > of> > > > > > all the> > > > > > > members.> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > It will be evident from that post that the Swamigal had put> > the> > > ball> > > > > > in the> > > > > > > court (lap!?) of nirayana astrologers for "adjudication"> > instead> > > of> > > > > > doing> > > > > > > some serious thinking on an issue of such importance> himself,> > > and no> > > > > > wonder> > > > > > > that the nirayana astrologers have advised the Acharya that> we> > > must> > > > > > continue> > > > > > > to follow Lahiri Ayanamsha for horoscopy as well as> festivals> > > and> > > > > > muhurtas!> > > > > > > It is just like late N C Lahiri, as Secretary of Saha> Calendar> > > Reform> > > > > > > Committee, asking Hindu astrologers their views about the> > > > > > Rashichakra that> > > > > > > must be followed for festivals and muhurtas and no wonder> > almost> > > all the> > > > > > > jyotishis had, in unison, opined that it must be> > "Chitrapaksha"> > > .> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dharmacharya> > > > > > Sabha headed> > > > > > > by Sri Swami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great> regard)> > > > > > refutes me> > > > > > > and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of> January> > > 14th> > > > > > is the> > > > > > > real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that Krishna mentions> in> > > the> > > > > > > Bhagavadgita. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > It has been my sad experience over the last about fifteen> > years> > > that> > > > > > neither> > > > > > > any dharmacharya nor any "Vamadeva" nor any "Parashara" etc.> > > etc.> > > > > > responds> > > > > > > to any inconvenient questions, correct answers to which may> > put> > > them at> > > > > > > loggerheads with their followers/shishyas, ninety-nine per> > cent> > > of> > > > > > whom are> > > > > > > "Vedic astrologers" i.e. Lahiri Makar-Sankranti- walas!> These> > > > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > > > and "Parasharas" and "Vamadevas" etc. etc. are also in a> > > Catch-22> > > > > > situation:> > > > > > > If they take a correct stand now and advise their shishyas> and> > > > > > followers to> > > > > > > follow correct dates for festivals and muhurtas in future,> it> > > may affect> > > > > > > their own standing adversely, since maybe they are afraid of> > > being> > > > > > > questioned as to why they had been advocating a wrong gamut> of> > > > > > calendars and> > > > > > > even horoscopy till date! The dilemma of dharmacharyas will> be> > > > > > evident from> > > > > > > a separate mail titled "I do not want to lose my pontiff's> > > seat".> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > These "Vamadevas" and "Parasharas" and maybe even> > dharmacharyas,> > > on the> > > > > > > other hand, set their shishyas and followers on the job of> > > > > > rabble-rousing,> > > > > > > and instead of refuting any of the points raised by me,> these> > > > > > shishyas and> > > > > > > followers go on abusing me left and right by calling me a> > Muslim> > > > > > convert or> > > > > > > a Xtian being funded by Missionaries and so on with the> pious> > > hope> > > > > > that I> > > > > > > will just give up in exasperation!> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > However, those shishyas and followers, including their> mentors> > > and> > > > > > acharyas,> > > > > > > are entirely mistaken in the assessment of the outcome of a> > > dharmayudha!> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Regarding Bhagvadgita, Bhagwan Krishna has said in the same> > Gita> > > that a> > > > > > > person with tamoguni budhi sees dharma as adharma and> adharma> > as> > > dharma!> > > > > > > And since the dharmacharyas and even some "Parasharas" and> > > > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > > > also are supposed to have read at least the Gita, if no> other> > > > > > shastra, they> > > > > > > are thus proving themselves to have been enveloped by> tamoguni> > > budhi> > > > > > as they> > > > > > > are seeing wrong dates of festivals as correct ones and> > > vice-versa!> > > > > > They> > > > > > > are also too cowardly to either admit it openly or to prove> > the> > > > > > other party> > > > > > > wrong!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > It is evident from the fact that a "his holiness of art of> one> > > thing> > > > > > or the> > > > > > > other" had put his stamp of approval on the date of birth of> > > Bhagwan> > > > > > Ram as> > > > > > > January 14, 5114 BCE, at about noon, not because "his> > holiness"> > > had> > > > > > > visualized that date of Bhagwan Ram through his tapasya, but> > > maybe only> > > > > > > because the date of January 14, 5114 BCE, had been fixed by> > some> > > > > > Income Tax> > > > > > > Commissioner! After all, one cannot be on the wrong side of> > the> > > > > > powers that> > > > > > > be, in spite of that "one" being a "his holiness of the art> of> > > > > > something or> > > > > > > the other".> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > It is only because of such sad experiences with> dharmacharyas> > > and> > > > > > "top notch> > > > > > > Vedic astrologers" and even the Govt. of India etc. etc.> that> > I> > > am> > > > > > keeping> > > > > > > all these facts and figures before a common man so that he> > sees> > > for> > > > > > himself> > > > > > > as to how he is being taken for a ride in the name of "Vedic> > > > > > astrology" by> > > > > > > dharmacharyas as well as jyotishaharyas and even the> Rashtriya> > > > > > Panchanga.> > > > > > > The general public must now stand up in revolt of such> > > atrocities so> > > > > > that we> > > > > > > stop celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong> days> > > > > > because of the> > > > > > > wrong advice and "adjudication" of these very acharyas and> > > > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > > > etc. whom we are treating as our friends, philosophers and> > > guides.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > And that is why I keep on repeating, "we do not need enemies> > to> > > ruin our> > > > > > > dharma if we have 'friendly Vedic astrologers' together with> > > > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > > > around to do that job by making us celebrate Uttarayana on> > > January> > > > > > 14 and> > > > > > > Pitra-amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali and so on.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > It is again a Clarion call to all the Hindu members of the> > > society> > > > > > to wake> > > > > > > up, wake up and wake up!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > With kind personal regards,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > A K Kaul> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > hinducivilization, "aareni"> <aareni@>> > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed out> > > this in> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was equated> > > with> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Makara Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara> > > sankranti got> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > muddled up is no higher mathematics or Theory of> Relativity.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Evidences are there for every Hindu to see. I had heard> that> > > Sangha> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Parivar had decided to observe Sankranti on 22 December. I> > > don't know> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > whether this info is correct or not. If yes, then GREAT> > > otherwise> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > well phu! phu!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> > > openly and> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam> > on> > > a day> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > other than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They> > > should also> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > interpret the modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of> > > TarpaNam at> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > the four sankrantis (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly> > as> > > per the> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ancient Vedic texts. The above four sankramanas are the> four> > > corners> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > of Hindu religious observances of all castes and sects.> Many> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > festivals have also originated based on their positions.> > > Observing> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Uttarayana on the wrong day (I am not talking of the time)> > is> > > as> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrong as observing Amaavaasya on Chaturthi! Of course no> one> > > does> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > this mistake, simply because it is easy to see whether> moon> > is> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > visible or not (at least approximately) . Uttarayana was> > also> > > fixed by> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > observations in the Vedic past [see the Mahavrata,> Pravargya> > > and the> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 21 day rituals] and NOT BY CONSULTING AN ASTROLOGER'S> WRONG> > > PANCANGA.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the> > Dharmacharya> > > Sabha> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > headed by Sri SWami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in> > great> > > regard)> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > refutes me and convinces me that the present Makara> > Sankranti> > > of> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > January 14th is the real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one> > that> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Krishna mentions in the Bhagavadgita.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > RN Iyengar> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Avtar Krishen> > > Kaul"> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Just one example will suffice:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Pongal--cum- Makar-Sankranti is supposed to be a> seasonal> > > festival.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > But if Pongal is clubbed with Lahiri Makar Sankrnati, as> > is> > > being> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > done by "Vedic astrologers" , it means it has been going> > on> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > advancing> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > by one day every 72 years. Thus it must have coincided> > with> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Uttarayana viz. the Winter Solstice in 285 AD---the zero> > > year of> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Lahiriwalas!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Prior to that, say in about 1400 BCE, the period of the> > > Vedanga> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Jyotisha, Lahiri-Pongal- cum-Lahiri- Makar-Sankranti was> > > about twenty-> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > four days (at the rate of one day for every seventy-two> > > years for> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 1400+285=1685 years) before Uttarayana i.e. around the> > > beginning of> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > November in 1400 BCE as per the Julian calendar, if> there> > > could be> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > any such calendar then!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > It means that Pongal would have been then exactly 24> days> > > prior to> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > the real Uttarayana as it is ahead these days! What type> > of> > > a> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > seasonal festival is it then?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

March 15, 2009

dear sreenadh ji thanks rgrds sunil nair , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear Sunil Nair ji,> Well said. > Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , "sunil nair"> astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> >> >> > dear sreenadh ji ,bhaskar ji ,sankar bhardwaj ji and sunil b ji and> all> > others> >> > we shud understand the mission of kaul as he is financed by some grps> to> > take tirade against astrology as the fact is hindus dont got converted> > even after 1000s of yrs of foriegn attacks and the others sections (> who> > is financing )knows that the strnght of hindus is astrology and not> > vedas ,because the ppl who r not willing to convert even after all lot> > of persuation is because they hav a workable science in frnt of them> > which is prooving strnght of indian thoughts .Than they knows every> word> > in vedas .So destruction of this astrology become prime objuct .> >> >> >> > The plighht of kashmiri pundits is self invited one as they> terrorised> > the king of utter dire consequence when some sanyasi offer re> converting> > all ppl who embraced islam as he already got promise frm many grps (> > they treatened him that they will suicide if even one man is re> > converted and remind him abt brahmana shapa ( curse ) which the king> > dont want to aquire ) ,because they thought they can enjoy all para> > phernalia of religion without any treats frm other high cast hindus> .and> > the rest is history .It has nothing to do with astrology and hindu> Gods> > r not semitic gods who wanted to take revenge on PPL who dont follow> dos> > and do not s of their religions .> >> >> >> > kaul is always talking semitic in ideas and his curses .where god> > explained in Geeeta that it is our karma that creates our destiny than> u> > simply worship him without going to ur work or duty ( dharma mama is> > esssense of hindus means duty first ) .-Think abt our farmers doing> only> > japa and not agriculture work 24 hrs .> >> > his failure in astrology is simply a cover as i know even any> successful> > predictions which done long back also he blasts with asking questions,> > asking to disclose methodology .Any person without a valid guru cannot> > master an y indian sastras as u need a lite to guide u .So many self> > -taught gurus turns negetiv is common ,by reading books no one can> > become a shilpi ,manta expert or tantric or even one good astrologer .> >> > My frnds and students asked him many times take one shloka in any > Hora> > and explain it if he has realy 50 yrs exp as he claims ,where as he> > claims he knows every astro system on earth .We realy even dont know> who> > realy taught him astrology and which parampara it is .> >> > more in next> >> >> >> > with regrds sunil nair> >> > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> >> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sunil ji,> > > That was an informative mail. Thanks.> > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> > > , "sunil nair"> > > astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > hare rama krishna> > > >> > > > dear sunil Bhattacharjya ji> > > >> > > > let us discard kaul for his wilful deliberate and designed to> spread> > > > confusion utterance s>he is on this mission without any monetary> > > benefit> > > > for last 25 yrs is undigestable and he has all the time and> > resources> > > > too and never short of anything ,so we can very well understand> that> > > he> > > > is on missionary work than creating a calender which is not> workable> > > > .And vedas discuss abt solar ( saura and savana ) calenders and> that> > > is> > > > basic calender any primitiv man can create as it is observable and> > > easy> > > > to make .then only this lunar and nakshatra calenders happened> > ,which> > > is> > > > mathematical one and without a rasi concept again it is not> possible> > > > ,with rasis only jupiterian calnders possible as it is taken as> time> > > > taken by jupiter to move in one rasi ,so every thing is understood> > and> > > > nothing shud b prooved .when some one discuss some thing every> > > sentence> > > > we dont need to tell or explain basics ewhich is a common> prasctise> > > too> > > > ,so asking proof of everything in vedas is simply bull shit .The> > > meaning> > > > ofthye word vedas is ultimate knowledge secured till day and which> > > is> > > > regrded sacredbecause hindus ( means all indian religions> including> > > > jaina ,budha ,saiva ,tantric etc ) take any knowledge as sacred> ,so> > > > astrology is jyotirveda and ayurveda and stpata veda and all other> > 64> > > > branches of science generated this way only here veda means> knowldge> > > not> > > > that it means u can see its full text in vedas ( which is devided> > > by> > > > veda vyasa as 4 vedas )> > > >> > > > all his questions r like this and he has no proof too ,that we got> > > > everything frm greeks or chaldeans than his support he support his> > > > argumnt with any proofs .europeans using right hand to eat is not> > our> > > > mistake ,it is univerdal truth and phinomenon ,so universal truth> > may> > > be> > > > adopted by many races ( i dont want to belittle any race or> culture> > )> > > > .india has already proof of many things frm BC 10000 that we hav> > > defenit> > > > systems and culture than greek or roman or chalderans own its own> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > also any scinece ( satra ) to survive ,devlp or even 2 grow it> needs> > a> > > > philosophical backing ( like janma punarnma and advaita etc ahm> > > brhmasmi> > > > ) ,so if some one in greek mentions some thing means it is pirated> > > than> > > > we got frm them .otherwise kaul has to demonstrte how they arrived> > it> > > > and how and why it has not been followed further .> > > >> > > > His fvrite argumnt is yavans are greeks and maya is a greek man> > which> > > is> > > > not possible even frm greek history as it is his ignorence or> wilful> > > > agenda ( actualy he--kaul - is trying to become one to destroy> hindu> > > > culture ,which he blame on maya the asura ) he is repeating every> > > thing> > > > again and again even after it is prooved by many ,still he will> use> > > > same adjectives which u explained in mail plus he is depending on> > xian> > > > missionary trnslations than he know s any sanskrit,because it is> > never> > > > heard in any where history than some one created some thing to> fool> > > > others -here we hindus and it is blindly followed by all hindus .(> i> > > > mean surya sidhanta and i even asked one of my frnd to ask Kaul to> > > > create such a treatise if it is so easy or if any one can do> it,pls> > > ask> > > > him to show me . which is close to modern finding and v v v minor> > > errors> > > > are projected by kaul as big mistakes ) and the truth is hindus> > > observed> > > > all this not to sent satelite or make a coloney in space but to> > > observe> > > > festivals and various vedic rituals and predict matters related> > > country> > > > and persons as our prapancha bodham was like that ,we blv that we> r> > > mini> > > > brahmandam ,so any thing happening in space is also possible to> make> > > an> > > > impact in mini cosmos which is pindandam which is very much close> to> > > > advaita philosophy too.Without a utility part no PPL will follow> > > > anything for such a long time ,even many rituals even changed but> > not> > > > astrology or such scinces> > > >> > > > if he has objections ask him to explain ( than we keep on teaching> > him> > > > so as to find more alternativ argumnts and i blv it shud b done> with> > a> > > > strong moderation ( i mean a judge shud b there ) than he is left> > > like> > > > a loose dog to wander frm grps to grps and haunt ppl and call> names> > or> > > > attack in personals mails ))what is purusha sukta and its purpose> (> > to> > > > know his vast knowledge in sanskrit ) and ask him to define how> > hindus> > > > arrived the lunar calender and panchanga and thithies .He never> > > explaind> > > > this ( as some one who is my student has asked him this 100 times> > and> > > he> > > > never bother to answer it and was keep on running away without> > > answering> > > > it ) and such a fool is arguing for a unsuccessful calender and> all> > > > hindu fools in many hindu forums thinks he has lot of brain and> > > knowldge> > > > and he is talking some sense and it is what is in vedas> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > better i talk after his explnations> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > other wise we r waisting our time and even money ( as he is> getting> > it> > > > in millions and he needs to show proof too to his masters )> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > sorry for all mistakes in typing ( as i type and will not re read> it> > > b4> > > > posting )> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > regrds sunil nair> > > >> > > > om shreem mahalaxmai namah> > > >> > > >> > > > , Sunil> Bhattacharjya> > > > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Shri Avtarji,> > > > >> > > > > Namaste,> > > > >> > > > > Can I refer to your following statement ?> > > > >> > > > > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight!> ?)"> > > the> > > > previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they> > are> > > > actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!"> > > > >> > > > > I shall be highly grateful if you kindly clarify as to where and> > > when> > > > did any Vedic astrologer claim that they can pre-see janmas and> > > foresee> > > > the future janmas as well. To my knowledge Lord Buddha could see> his> > > > past janmas only when he got spiritual enlightenment. Trikalajna> > > > Rishis are said to be able to see the past, present and the> future.> > > To> > > > my knowledge the Vedic astrologers think that the natal horoscope> > > > reflects only the effects of the past karma in this life. However> > this> > > > is not say that no karma of this life will have any effect in this> > > life> > > > at all.> > > > >> > > > > I fully agree with your quotation from the Suryasiddhanta> "Bhanor> > > > Makara Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat> > > > shanmasa dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start> > with> > > > the ingress of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of> > > > Dakshinayana start with its ingress into Karkata rashi".> > > > >> > > > > To my knowledge the Winter Solstice started occurring in the> Makar> > > > Rashi from the 19th century BCE and the Winter Solstice continued> to> > > > occur in the Makar Rashi till the 3rd century CE and after that it> > > > started occurring in the Dhanu rashi. This junction of change over> > > from> > > > Makar Rashi to Dhanu Rashi in the 3rd century CE is memorable and> > from> > > > that time the Ayanamsha correction started. Astronomically after> > > 25,800> > > > years from the time in the 3rd century CE the Wnter Solstice> should> > > > occur again at the junction of change over from Makar Rashi to> Dhanu> > > > Rashi. In the absence of specific reference to Makar Sankranti in> > any> > > of> > > > the pre-19th century BCE ancient texts it appears reasonable to> say> > > > that before the 19 th century BCE the Makar Sankranti was not> > > observed> > > > on the Uttarayana day and therefore there is no need to observe> > Makar> > > > Sankranti on the Uttarayana day now.> > > > >> > > > > I would like to have your valuable opinion as to whether you> agree> > > > with the above analysis and if not why. I am also requesting the> > > other> > > > reputed scholars of the Jyotish sashtra, who are in these> addressed> > > > groups, such as Shri Robertsonji, Shri Sreenadhji, Shri Sunil> > Nairji,> > > > Dr. R.N.Iyengarji, Shri Ajai katesariyaji, Shri Gopal Goelji, Shri> > > > vinay jhaji and other scholars with interest in this subject, to> > give> > > > their valuable opinion on this very crucial matter.> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved@> > > > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu> sage> > > > scientists> > > > > IndiaArchaeology > > > > > Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 2:36 AM> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Group,> > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > "Vedic astrologers" claim that they can "pre-see (hind-sight!> ?)"> > > the> > > > previous janmas and "foresee" the future janmas as well, but they> > are> > > > actually blind as a bat regading scriptual matters!> > > > >> > > > > The following comment from a member is very interesting in this> > > > context,"So why should Avtarji and others insist that Makar> > Sankranti> > > > should be observed on the Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such> > as> > > > the Makar Sankranti and the Tula Sankranti be observed as usual> when> > > the> > > > Sun enters the Nirayana Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This> > > should> > > > not be taken an excuse to derail the making of the authentic Hindu> > > > Calendar".> > > > >> > > > > I wish the member concerned had shunned his tamoguni budhi, and> > > > purused at least the following excerpts from my post No.8373 of> Feb> > > > 25,09--hardly of a few days back! And I quote just a few relevant> > > paras:> > > > >> > > > > "4. It is thus futile to talk about the Vedic rashis being so> > called> > > > sayana or so called nirayana since you cannot discuss the> qualities> > > and> > > > qualifications of a non-existent entity! Such gimmicks are used> only> > > in> > > > predictive astrology like kala-sarpa yoga/dosha by "invisible"> lunar> > > > nodes, which are just mathematical points--- or imaginary> Dreshkana> > > and> > > > saptamasha and what not divisions of imaginary twelve equal> > divisions> > > of> > > > Mesha etc. rashis and "correct phalita" through imaginary> vimshotari> > > and> > > > ashtotari and yogini and kalachakra and hundreds of such dashas> etc.> > > > etc.! Such gimmicks, however, cannot work in astronomy, which> > demands> > > > proofs for any claims made!> > > > >> > > > > "The nirayana versus sayana mess that has derailed the Hindu> > > calendar> > > > is actually a creation of Hindu jyotishis (who call themselves> Vedic> > > > astrologers (sic!) these days! It is actually the difference of> the> > > > calculated longitudes of the Surya Sidhanta vis-à-vis the> actual> > > > phenomena of Winter Solstice etc. that is known as Ayanamsha! For> > > > example, the Surya Sidhanta says categorically, "Bhanor Makara> > > > Sankranteh shanmanasa Uttarayana, Karkyades tathaiva syat shanmasa> > > > dakshinayanam" i.e. "The six months of Uttarayana start with the> > > ingress> > > > of the sun into Makara Rashi and the six months of Dakshinayana> > start> > > > with its ingress into Karkata rashi" but when it comes to its> > > > calculation, there is a difference of about 24 days/degrees> between> > > the> > > > actual Uttarayana-cum- Makar Sankranti and the Surya Sidhanta> > > calculated> > > > Makar Sankranti as on date!"> > > > > ....> > > > > ...> > > > >> > > > > "7. Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, therefore, are a direct import> from> > > > Babylonia via the Greeks and all the sidhantas, right from the> Surya> > > > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha to the last sidhanta of Bhaskara-II> > viz.> > > > the Sidhanta Shiromani have invariably talked about Makara> Sankranti> > > > being another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti being> another> > > > name of Dakshinayana and so on. As I have gone through almost all> > the> > > > sidhantas, I can assure you that none of the sidhanta-kars had any> > > idea> > > > about the phenomenon of precession!> > > > > " However, all the Puranas like Bhagavata, Shiva, Linga, Devi> etc.> > > > etc. also talk of the same phenomena as the sidhantas i.e. "Makar> > > > Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana and Karkata Sankranti> > another> > > > name of Dakshinayana" and so on. (Pl. see 1999b.doc). As such, the> > > > Pauranic rahis are an after thought and a development of> > > > post-Surya-Sidhanta era! ......"> > > > > *** **** ***** ***** ****> > > > > And the most important point that appears to be the nightmare of> > the> > > > "Vedic astrologers" is (from the same post):> > > > >> > > > > "Thus if we really want to streamline our calendars in> accordance> > > with> > > > the Vedas and Puranas, the earlier we come out of the stupor of> > Mesha,> > > > Vrisha etc. rashsis the better! If at all it is a necessary evil> to> > > have> > > > rashis included in the calendar, the only alternative is that we> > have> > > to> > > > include the so called sayana Rashis, since they are the ones found> > in> > > > the Puranas and sidhantas (and not in the Vedas or the VJ etc.)> but> > we> > > > have to simultaneously de-link Ashvini, Bharni etc. nakshatras> from> > > the> > > > same.> > > > >> > > > > That is the only and only way to streamline the Hindu calendar> as> > > per> > > > the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha and even Puranas."> > > > > ** **** *** ***> > > > > Then again, on perusal of post No.8374 and the "list of correct> > > dates> > > > of festivals in 2009-10" in the files section, things will be all> > the> > > > more clear that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, being actually> > non-existent> > > > divisions, are imaginary and are being clubbed with Uttarayana> etc.> > > only> > > > as a substitute of the baseless and useless nirayana mess! It is> > only> > > to> > > > "choose the lesser of two evils"---since if some states take> Meshadi> > > as> > > > the start of the new solar year, they have to be informed that it> > must> > > > be a so called sayana Meshadi since Vishuva (Vernal Equinox) and> not> > > > Meshadi is the real start of new solar year, and so on.> > > > > Hope these "Vedic astrologers" will not make a laughing stock of> > > > themselves any more by creating nirayana versus sayana> controversies> > > and> > > > so on.> > > > > I also pray to God that He save the Hindus from the clutches of> > > "Vedic> > > > astrologers" ---whetehr sayana Vedic or nirayana Vedic so that we> > can> > > > streamline our calendars in accordance with the scriputres and not> > as> > > > per the whims of Lahiri-walas and Ramana-walas and> Chandra-Hariwalas> > > and> > > > so on.> > > > > With regards,> > > > > A K Kaul> > > > >> > > > > IndiaArchaeology, Sunil Bhattacharjya> > > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you Iyengarji,> > > > > >> > > > > > So you agree that Makar Sankranti could not have been linked> to> > > > Uttarayana in the ancient past as Makara Sankramana itself was not> > > > mentioned in the literature of the ancient past. So why should> > Avtarji> > > > and others insist that Makar Sankranti should be observed on the> > > > Uttarayana day. Let these festivals such as the Makar Sankranti> and> > > the> > > > Tula Sankranti be observed as usual when the Sun enters the> Nirayana> > > > Makar rashi and Nirayana Tula rashi. This should not be taken an> > > excuse> > > > to derail the making of the authentic Hindu Calendar.> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Wed, 3/4/09, aareni aareni@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > aareni aareni@> > > > > > [ind-Arch] Fwd: Re: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu> > sage> > > > scientists> > > > > > IndiaArchaeology> > > > > > Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 4:55 PM> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > This is a leading question of Lawyers who are supposed to ask> > > "when> > > > did you stop beating your wife?". Firstly where in the whole of> > > > canonical Vedic literature (Samhita, Brahmana, Aranyaka, Vedanga)> > > Makara> > > > Sakramana is mentioned??! !!> > > > > >> > > > > > RNI> > > > > >> > > > > > IndiaArchaeology, "sunil_bhattacharjy> > a"> > > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Avtarji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > May I request both you and Dr. Iyengar to please let us> know,> > by> > > > > > > giving the actual reference only, as to where is it said in> > the> > > > Vedic> > > > > > > literature that the Uttarayana must always coincide with the> > > Makar> > > > > > > Sankramana just because there was such a coincidence at one> > > time.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > > > >> > > > > > > IndiaArchaeology, "jyotirved"> > > > <jyotirved@>> > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dr. R. N. Iyengarji,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It was really an excellent and to the point post about the> > > > pathetic> > > > > > > state of> > > > > > > > affairs regarding all our festivals--- fasts and muhurtas> > > > especially the> > > > > > > > comments, "Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also> > > > pointed> > > > > > > out this> > > > > > > > in my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was> > equated> > > > with> > > > > > > Makara> > > > > > > > Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara sankranti> got> > > > muddled> > > > > > > up is> > > > > > > > no higher mathematics or Theory of Relativity. Evidences> are> > > > there> > > > > > > for every> > > > > > > > Hindu to see.>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I had been waiting with a bated breath for comments from> the> > > > learned> > > > > > > members> > > > > > > > of this and other forums to which I had forwarded your> post> > > > > > > regarding the> > > > > > > > wrong method of fixing Makara Sankranti and other> > Sankrantis.> > > I> > > > was> > > > > > > under> > > > > > > > the impression that maybe people have become accustomed to> > my> > > > > > > "hollering"> > > > > > > > that we are celebrating all our festivals on wrong days> and> > > have> > > > stopped> > > > > > > > taking my statements seriously, but they will certainly> > > respond> > > > to> > > > > > > the post> > > > > > > > of a scientist and Vedic scholar of your standing. But I> am> > > > really> > > > > > > > disappointed on such a deafening silence from everybody> even> > > to> > > > your> > > > > > > post!> > > > > > > > Such a silence is certainly not a healthy indication of a> > real> > > > cultural> > > > > > > > interaction!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > <High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses this> > > > openly and> > > > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing TarpaNam> > on> > > a> > > > day> > > > > > > other> > > > > > > > than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They should> > also> > > > > > > interpret the> > > > > > > > modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of TarpaNam at the> > four> > > > > > > sankrantis> > > > > > > > (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara) correctly as per the ancient> > > Vedic> > > > > > > texts. The> > > > > > > > above four sankramanas are the four corners >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I had sent letters by registered post together with my> > > > panchangas> > > > > > > quite a> > > > > > > > few years back to all the six Shankaracharyas, besides> quite> > a> > > > few other> > > > > > > > dharmacharyas, explaining to them the sorry state of> affairs> > > of> > > > our> > > > > > > > festivals and muhurtas in detail. (Pl. see Shankara.doc in> > > files> > > > > > > section). I> > > > > > > > did not get any response from any dharmacharya in spite of> > my> > > > several> > > > > > > > reminders.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > As I had sent copies of my such letters to all the leading> > > > > > > panchangamakers> > > > > > > > in the country, including Janmabhoomi (Gujarati) in> Mumbai,> > a> > > > > > > gentleman in> > > > > > > > the HinduCalendar forum pointed out to me the> "adjudication"> > > by> > > > > > > Jagadguru> > > > > > > > Shankaracharya of Kanchikamakoti Peetha that is being> > > > > > > printed/published in> > > > > > > > Janmabhoomi Panchanga every year. I am forwarding a copy> of> > > that> > > > > > > > translation from HinduCalendar forum to this forum for> > perusal> > > > of> > > > > > > all the> > > > > > > > members.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It will be evident from that post that the Swamigal had> put> > > the> > > > ball> > > > > > > in the> > > > > > > > court (lap!?) of nirayana astrologers for "adjudication"> > > instead> > > > of> > > > > > > doing> > > > > > > > some serious thinking on an issue of such importance> > himself,> > > > and no> > > > > > > wonder> > > > > > > > that the nirayana astrologers have advised the Acharya> that> > we> > > > must> > > > > > > continue> > > > > > > > to follow Lahiri Ayanamsha for horoscopy as well as> > festivals> > > > and> > > > > > > muhurtas!> > > > > > > > It is just like late N C Lahiri, as Secretary of Saha> > Calendar> > > > Reform> > > > > > > > Committee, asking Hindu astrologers their views about the> > > > > > > Rashichakra that> > > > > > > > must be followed for festivals and muhurtas and no wonder> > > almost> > > > all the> > > > > > > > jyotishis had, in unison, opined that it must be> > > "Chitrapaksha"> > > > .> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dharmacharya> > > > > > > Sabha headed> > > > > > > > by Sri Swami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in great> > regard)> > > > > > > refutes me> > > > > > > > and convinces me that the present Makara Sankranti of> > January> > > > 14th> > > > > > > is the> > > > > > > > real Vedic Udagayana, same as the one that Krishna> mentions> > in> > > > the> > > > > > > > Bhagavadgita. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It has been my sad experience over the last about fifteen> > > years> > > > that> > > > > > > neither> > > > > > > > any dharmacharya nor any "Vamadeva" nor any "Parashara"> etc.> > > > etc.> > > > > > > responds> > > > > > > > to any inconvenient questions, correct answers to which> may> > > put> > > > them at> > > > > > > > loggerheads with their followers/shishyas, ninety-nine per> > > cent> > > > of> > > > > > > whom are> > > > > > > > "Vedic astrologers" i.e. Lahiri Makar-Sankranti- walas!> > These> > > > > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > > > > and "Parasharas" and "Vamadevas" etc. etc. are also in a> > > > Catch-22> > > > > > > situation:> > > > > > > > If they take a correct stand now and advise their shishyas> > and> > > > > > > followers to> > > > > > > > follow correct dates for festivals and muhurtas in future,> > it> > > > may affect> > > > > > > > their own standing adversely, since maybe they are afraid> of> > > > being> > > > > > > > questioned as to why they had been advocating a wrong> gamut> > of> > > > > > > calendars and> > > > > > > > even horoscopy till date! The dilemma of dharmacharyas> will> > be> > > > > > > evident from> > > > > > > > a separate mail titled "I do not want to lose my pontiff's> > > > seat".> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > These "Vamadevas" and "Parasharas" and maybe even> > > dharmacharyas,> > > > on the> > > > > > > > other hand, set their shishyas and followers on the job of> > > > > > > rabble-rousing,> > > > > > > > and instead of refuting any of the points raised by me,> > these> > > > > > > shishyas and> > > > > > > > followers go on abusing me left and right by calling me a> > > Muslim> > > > > > > convert or> > > > > > > > a Xtian being funded by Missionaries and so on with the> > pious> > > > hope> > > > > > > that I> > > > > > > > will just give up in exasperation!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > However, those shishyas and followers, including their> > mentors> > > > and> > > > > > > acharyas,> > > > > > > > are entirely mistaken in the assessment of the outcome of> a> > > > dharmayudha!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Regarding Bhagvadgita, Bhagwan Krishna has said in the> same> > > Gita> > > > that a> > > > > > > > person with tamoguni budhi sees dharma as adharma and> > adharma> > > as> > > > dharma!> > > > > > > > And since the dharmacharyas and even some "Parasharas" and> > > > > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > > > > also are supposed to have read at least the Gita, if no> > other> > > > > > > shastra, they> > > > > > > > are thus proving themselves to have been enveloped by> > tamoguni> > > > budhi> > > > > > > as they> > > > > > > > are seeing wrong dates of festivals as correct ones and> > > > vice-versa!> > > > > > > They> > > > > > > > are also too cowardly to either admit it openly or to> prove> > > the> > > > > > > other party> > > > > > > > wrong!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It is evident from the fact that a "his holiness of art of> > one> > > > thing> > > > > > > or the> > > > > > > > other" had put his stamp of approval on the date of birth> of> > > > Bhagwan> > > > > > > Ram as> > > > > > > > January 14, 5114 BCE, at about noon, not because "his> > > holiness"> > > > had> > > > > > > > visualized that date of Bhagwan Ram through his tapasya,> but> > > > maybe only> > > > > > > > because the date of January 14, 5114 BCE, had been fixed> by> > > some> > > > > > > Income Tax> > > > > > > > Commissioner! After all, one cannot be on the wrong side> of> > > the> > > > > > > powers that> > > > > > > > be, in spite of that "one" being a "his holiness of the> art> > of> > > > > > > something or> > > > > > > > the other".> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It is only because of such sad experiences with> > dharmacharyas> > > > and> > > > > > > "top notch> > > > > > > > Vedic astrologers" and even the Govt. of India etc. etc.> > that> > > I> > > > am> > > > > > > keeping> > > > > > > > all these facts and figures before a common man so that he> > > sees> > > > for> > > > > > > himself> > > > > > > > as to how he is being taken for a ride in the name of> "Vedic> > > > > > > astrology" by> > > > > > > > dharmacharyas as well as jyotishaharyas and even the> > Rashtriya> > > > > > > Panchanga.> > > > > > > > The general public must now stand up in revolt of such> > > > atrocities so> > > > > > > that we> > > > > > > > stop celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong> > days> > > > > > > because of the> > > > > > > > wrong advice and "adjudication" of these very acharyas and> > > > > > > "Vamadevas" etc.> > > > > > > > etc. whom we are treating as our friends, philosophers and> > > > guides.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > And that is why I keep on repeating, "we do not need> enemies> > > to> > > > ruin our> > > > > > > > dharma if we have 'friendly Vedic astrologers' together> with> > > > > > > dharmacharyas> > > > > > > > around to do that job by making us celebrate Uttarayana on> > > > January> > > > > > > 14 and> > > > > > > > Pitra-amavasya on the day of actual Dipavali and so on.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It is again a Clarion call to all the Hindu members of the> > > > society> > > > > > > to wake> > > > > > > > up, wake up and wake up!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > With kind personal regards,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > A K Kaul> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "aareni"> > <aareni@>> > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >Kaul is 100% correct on this point. I have also pointed> out> > > > this in> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > my other posts. The fact that Vedic Uttarayana was> equated> > > > with> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Makara Sankranti and then the method of fixing Makara> > > > sankranti got> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > muddled up is no higher mathematics or Theory of> > Relativity.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Evidences are there for every Hindu to see. I had heard> > that> > > > Sangha> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Parivar had decided to observe Sankranti on 22 December.> I> > > > don't know> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > whether this info is correct or not. If yes, then GREAT> > > > otherwise> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > well phu! phu!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > High time the so called Dharmacharya Sabha discusses> this> > > > openly and> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > adjudicate whether taking bath in Ganga and doing> TarpaNam> > > on> > > > a day> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > other than the correct Udagayana is Dharmic or not. They> > > > should also> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > interpret the modern Dharma Shastra books which talk of> > > > TarpaNam at> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > the four sankrantis (Mesha, Tula, Karka, Makara)> correctly> > > as> > > > per the> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ancient Vedic texts. The above four sankramanas are the> > four> > > > corners> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > of Hindu religious observances of all castes and sects.> > Many> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > festivals have also originated based on their positions.> > > > Observing> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Uttarayana on the wrong day (I am not talking of the> time)> > > is> > > > as> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > wrong as observing Amaavaasya on Chaturthi! Of course no> > one> > > > does> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > this mistake, simply because it is easy to see whether> > moon> > > is> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > visible or not (at least approximately) . Uttarayana was> > > also> > > > fixed by> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > observations in the Vedic past [see the Mahavrata,> > Pravargya> > > > and the> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 21 day rituals] and NOT BY CONSULTING AN ASTROLOGER'S> > WRONG> > > > PANCANGA.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > I would be greatly satisfied if some one from the> > > Dharmacharya> > > > Sabha> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > headed by Sri SWami Dayananda Sarasvati (whom I hold in> > > great> > > > regard)> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > refutes me and convinces me that the present Makara> > > Sankranti> > > > of> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > January 14th is the real Vedic Udagayana, same as the> one> > > that> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Krishna mentions in the Bhagavadgita.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > RN Iyengar> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Avtar> Krishen> > > > Kaul"> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Just one example will suffice:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Pongal--cum- Makar-Sankranti is supposed to be a> > seasonal> > > > festival.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > But if Pongal is clubbed with Lahiri Makar Sankrnati,> as> > > is> > > > being> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > done by "Vedic astrologers" , it means it has been> going> > > on> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > advancing> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > by one day every 72 years. Thus it must have coincided> > > with> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Uttarayana viz. the Winter Solstice in 285 AD---the> zero> > > > year of> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Lahiriwalas!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Prior to that, say in about 1400 BCE, the period of> the> > > > Vedanga> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Jyotisha, Lahiri-Pongal- cum-Lahiri- Makar-Sankranti> was> > > > about twenty-> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > four days (at the rate of one day for every> seventy-two> > > > years for> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > 1400+285=1685 years) before Uttarayana i.e. around the> > > > beginning of> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > November in 1400 BCE as per the Julian calendar, if> > there> > > > could be> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > any such calendar then!> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > It means that Pongal would have been then exactly 24> > days> > > > prior to> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > the real Uttarayana as it is ahead these days! What> type> > > of> > > > a> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > seasonal festival is it then?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

Fwd: Achievements of our Vedic-Hindu sage scientists

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