Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Ramanji, You wrote Quote I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. Unquote When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira's and Brahmagupta's works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth jyotirved, waves-vedic Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM Dear Kaulji: I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. With regards, V. V. Raman March 26, 2009 __,,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Sunil In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: ; ; IndiaArchaeology ; Raman Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Ramanji, You wrote Quote I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. Unquote When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira's and Brahmagupta's works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth jyotirved, waves-vedic Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM Dear Kaulji: I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. With regards, V. V. Raman March 26, 2009 __,,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Marg, " Tithi " is derived from " Chaldean " astrology ? Please explain this for our benefit . I did not understand this. regards/Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Sunil > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > best wishes > M > - > Sunil Bhattacharjya > waves-vedic > Cc: ; ; IndiaArchaeology ; Raman > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Ramanji, > > You wrote > > Quote > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > Unquote > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira's and Brahmagupta's works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps wrote: > > Raman vvrsps > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > jyotirved, waves-vedic > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > Dear Kaulji: > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > With regards, > V. V. Raman > March 26, 2009 > > > > > __,,___ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear all, There are certain issues which are sensitive in astrology and one cannot discuss the same without causing frictions bbetween the members discussing the same. Like the issue of which ayanamsha is the best. Or issue of what is the better system, Nirayana or the sayana. Or this issue like the origin of astrology . For us Indians it always remain without any doubts that , the mother of all principles of astrology was laid out in India, which even the Western savants have given and accepted in writing, and not just one but many of them. For the westerners who may not be much aware of the intracasies, it may be a controversial subject of discussion as to what has been learnt from where. But not for us. In India even a housewife who husband is not an astrologer, knows better,and is well aware and conversant, of the day to day tithis and can mouth which one is on which day without even referring to the Panchanga. It is in our blood. For me it remains that the Elements of Panchanga , for instance the " Tithi " is a product from india, and whosoever puts claim on it as being originated from elsewhere, must support and authenticate the same. Even the progressions and the primary and secondary directions which are being used in the West, can be proved to have been originated from india, conclusively with evidence, though I would not be interested in spending time on the same, for its no use. We are not going to acquire a prize for spending time and energy on same. The purpose which should remain foremost in our mind should be how to improve our predictive abilities, rather on trying to prove what originated from where. Life is too short, to put any claims or prove them. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > Dear Marg, > > " Tithi " is derived from " Chaldean " astrology ? Please explain this for > our benefit . I did not understand this. > > regards/Bhaskar. > > > > > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > > > > Dear Sunil > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean > astrology. > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > waves-vedic > > Cc: ; > ; IndiaArchaeology@ ; Raman > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > You wrote > > > > Quote > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > Unquote > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > justifiable? > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > Varahamihira's and Brahmagupta's works. David Pingree made the mistake > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > calendrical months be dropped. > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > made your above hasty comment? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > jyotirved@, waves-vedic > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless > truths. " > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the > critics of that Holy Book. > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > stagnation of many cultures.] > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > respect those who hold them. > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > contexts are really futile. > > > > With regards, > > V. V. Raman > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Sunil ji, // Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira // This is to be corrected. You will find my exchanges on many Groups with this gentleman a few months ago, wherein I questioned him about this unnecessary tirade against Varahamihira and our other ancestors. I also submitted a questionnare to him, to reply on a subject of which he considers himself to be a Master of, but till date the replies to my queries have not yet come, and neither can they, knowing the depth of his knowledge. Instead he got exasperated with my queries which were all based on astrology and astronomy, and he instead of replying used the term " The Onus of giving the proof lies on You " , and thus indirectly accepted that he cannot answer a single of my query or argument put to him. Well we are not here to prove that one is more intelligent and the other less, because everybody has got enough knowledge on certain aspects of a subject which the other may not have. I just wished to say that I have been through all this, and finally realised the futility and that there is no use in spending all the time of the world in trying to convince somebody about our view, or show reason, when the other person is not ready to discuss, argue or understand others point of view. And the world is so big, we cannot change anybody, their views and convictions. So I put a break to challenging him, and fortunately am happier and able to utilise my time in better pursuits. regards, Bhaskar. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Ramanji, > > You wrote > > Quote > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > Unquote > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira's and Brahmagupta's works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps wrote: > > > Raman vvrsps > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > jyotirved, waves-vedic > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > Dear Kaulji: > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > With regards, > V. V. Raman > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Sunil-ji, I have been reading your erudite posts with much interest and am benefiting from the knowledge and references to historic texts. Many thanks. Your posts dispel some misconceptions about Hindu Jyotish which seems to be spread by scholars that are not well-versed in ancient Sanskrit texts. I would imagine that I am not alone here and there are many like me who are benefiting from your knowledgeable posts but are keeping out of posting in this thread because of our comparatively limited knowledge in this area. Please continue your posts in an academic / scholarly spirit. Regards, -Siva. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Ramanji, > > You wrote > > Quote > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > Unquote > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira's and Brahmagupta's works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > Raman <vvrsps > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > jyotirved, waves-vedic > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > Dear Kaulji: > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > With regards, > V. V. Raman > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Bhaskarji, Thank you Bhaskarji. Sorry if I have hurt you. I know many scholars have opposed Kaulji for his unscientific approach and unsavoury statements. I was particularly referring to his calling Varahamihira as a charlatan whenever his name was mentioned by him. I consider Varahamihira as an ancestor of the Hindu Jyotishis and it pains me no end to see our ancestor being insulted. As I was very upset in this particular matter I appear to have not recognised the protests of others regarding Kaulji's calling names at Varahamihira and I apologige for that. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:22 AM Dear Sunil ji, // Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira // This is to be corrected. You will find my exchanges on many Groups with this gentleman a few months ago, wherein I questioned him about this unnecessary tirade against Varahamihira and our other ancestors. I also submitted a questionnare to him, to reply on a subject of which he considers himself to be a Master of, but till date the replies to my queries have not yet come, and neither can they, knowing the depth of his knowledge. Instead he got exasperated with my queries which were all based on astrology and astronomy, and he instead of replying used the term " The Onus of giving the proof lies on You " , and thus indirectly accepted that he cannot answer a single of my query or argument put to him. Well we are not here to prove that one is more intelligent and the other less, because everybody has got enough knowledge on certain aspects of a subject which the other may not have. I just wished to say that I have been through all this, and finally realised the futility and that there is no use in spending all the time of the world in trying to convince somebody about our view, or show reason, when the other person is not ready to discuss, argue or understand others point of view. And the world is so big, we cannot change anybody, their views and convictions. So I put a break to challenging him, and fortunately am happier and able to utilise my time in better pursuits. regards, Bhaskar. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Ramanji, > > You wrote > > Quote > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > Unquote > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps wrote: > > > Raman vvrsps > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > jyotirved@.. ., waves-vedic > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > With regards, > V. V. Raman > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear Sunilji , // I consider Varahamihira as an ancestor of the Hindu Jyotishis and it pains me no end to see our ancestor being insulted.// Very good. I appreciate your Love for your ancestors. I share this pain with You. I get hurt equally when they are hurt. Let the pain remain, and let the Fire burn. Do not douse it .Do not forget the hurt, pain and grieveance caused. But remain inactive in this area for some time further. It should be chanellised and thrown back at a proper time at the perpetrator, when required. We have to save it for the opportune moment. Those with physical bodies have to do the job required for their dead ancestors like Shradha, Pitra tarpan, etc. including bringing back to book, those who insult our ancestors. This is our duty. But the right moment, a collective effort, and an aimed target with proper ammunition fired, which must be on the mark, requires some preparation. best wishes, Bhaskar. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Bhaskarji, > > Thank you Bhaskarji. Sorry if I have hurt you. I know many scholars have opposed Kaulji for his unscientific approach and unsavoury statements. I was particularly referring to his calling Varahamihira as a charlatan whenever his name was mentioned by him. I consider Varahamihira as an ancestor of the Hindu Jyotishis and it pains me no end to see our ancestor being insulted. As I was very upset in this particular matter I appear to have not recognised the protests of others regarding Kaulji's calling names at Varahamihira and I apologige for that. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:22 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil ji, > > > > // Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting > > against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira // > > > > This is to be corrected. You will find my exchanges on many Groups with > > this gentleman a few months ago, wherein I questioned him about this > > unnecessary tirade against Varahamihira and our other ancestors. I also > > submitted a questionnare to him, to reply on a subject of which he > > considers himself to be a Master of, but till date the replies to my > > queries have not yet come, and neither can they, knowing the depth of > > his knowledge. Instead he got exasperated with my queries which were all > > based on astrology and astronomy, and he instead of replying used the > > term " The Onus of giving the proof lies on You " , and thus indirectly > > accepted that he cannot answer a single of my query or argument put to > > him. > > > > Well we are not here to prove that one is more intelligent and the other > > less, because everybody has got enough knowledge on certain aspects of > > a subject which the other may not have. I just wished to say that I have > > been through all this, and finally realised the futility and that there > > is no use in spending all the time of the world in trying to convince > > somebody about our view, or show reason, when the other person is not > > ready to discuss, argue or understand others point of view. And the > > world is so big, we cannot change anybody, their views and convictions. > > So I put a break to challenging him, and fortunately am happier and > > able to utilise my time in better pursuits. > > > > regards, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of > > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally > > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling > > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions > > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called > > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical > > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for > > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > > justifiable? > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate > > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the > > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several > > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and > > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji > > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on > > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally > > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in > > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also > > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that > > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek > > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. > > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed > > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the > > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the > > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said > > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming > > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or > > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does > > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have > > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake > > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these > > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita > > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. > > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as > > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > > calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but > > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating > > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > > made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > jyotirved@ ., waves-vedic > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, > > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer > > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless > > truths. " > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in > > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot > > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the > > critics of that Holy Book. > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > > stagnation of many cultures.] > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > > respect those who hold them. > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by > > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they > > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners > > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or > > elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old > > doctrines. > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and > > can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one > > with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at > > a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > > contexts are really futile. > > > > > > With regards, > > > V. V. Raman > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Shri Ramanji, Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjya, WAVES-Vedic Cc: , Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?>  Shri Bhattacharjya: This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. With best regards, V. V. Raman March 27, 2009   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Dear M, Please name some books on it. Best wishes, S --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM Dear Sunil In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Ramanji, You wrote Quote I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. Unquote When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM Dear Kaulji: I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. With regards, V. V. Raman March 26, 2009 __,,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Dear Dr. Raman,In fact it is not Kaulji alone who do not care about true chronology. Vedanga jyotisha says that Winter solstice occurred at the beginning of Dhanistha. As an astrophysicist you will know that Winter Sostice began to occur in Dhanistha from 2400 BCE and it ended occurring in Dhanistha in 1400 BCE. This gives the date of Vedanga Jyotisha in 2400 BCE. But Colebrooke gave the date of 1400 BCE to Vedanga jyotisha by taking the exit of Winter Solstice from Dhanistha and Kaulji sings the tune of Colebrooke. Varahamihira gave his date as 427 of Sakendra kala and this means that his date has to be much earlier than the date of 505 CE given by Pingree and others. Kaulji follows what is given by the western authors though these were wrong. In fact defying all imaginations some western scholars found the date of Varahamihira in the 11th century CE. These western scholars give the dates as it suited them and then blame the past Indian scholars, mostly brhmins, that the latter gave them only fictitious dates.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote:Raman <vvrspsRe: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth"Sunil Bhattacharjya" <sunil_bhattacharjya, WAVES-Vedic Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 2:17 PM Thank you. I appreciate your explaining why you resented my <uncritical praise> of Kaulji. I am sorry if that praise made you feel bad. But I am sure you know that Kaulji will continue whether or not V. V. Raman praises or condemns him. So my praise or criticism is really moot in the larger scheme of things. Regards, V V. Raman March 27, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Dear Sunil I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear M, Please name some books on it. Best wishes, S --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM Dear Sunil In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Ramanji, You wrote Quote I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. Unquote When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM Dear Kaulji: I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. With regards, V. V. Raman March 26, 2009 __,,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Dear Marg, Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. Best wishes, S --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM Dear Sunil I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear M, Please name some books on it. Best wishes, S --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM Dear Sunil In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Ramanji, You wrote Quote I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. Unquote When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM Dear Kaulji: I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. With regards, V. V. Raman March 26, 2009 __,,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Dear Hari Mallaji, Namaskar, I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be much older. Lagadhacharya's date can be earlier than the date of composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much earlier. Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one another. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjya Cc: , , vvrsps Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, Namaskar! Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.thank you. sincerely your, Hari Malla  Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya WAVES-Vedic Cc: ; ; vvrsps Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Shri Ramanji, Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjya @>, WAVES-Vedic@ . com Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?>  Shri Bhattacharjya: This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. With best regards, V. V. Raman March 27, 2009   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 TO ALL : The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. -Vinay Jha. ==================== ================= , sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > Namaskar, > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be much older. Lagadhacharya's date can be earlier than the date of composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much earlier. > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one another. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: > > Hari Malla <harimalla > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjya > Cc: , , vvrsps > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > Namaskar! > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.thank you. > sincerely your, > Hari Malla > >  > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya > WAVES-Vedic > Cc: ; ; vvrsps > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Shri Ramanji, > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > Raman <vvrsps > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjya @>, WAVES-Vedic@ . com > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ . com > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?> >  > Shri Bhattacharjya: > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > With best regards, > V. V. Raman > March 27, 2009 > >  > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, Namaste. Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this mail. I just shared my thoughts. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > TO ALL : > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > -Vinay Jha. > ==================== ================= > > , sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > Namaskar, > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be much older. Lagadhacharya's date can be earlier than the date of composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much earlier. > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one another. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > Cc: , , vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > Namaskar! > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > sincerely your, > > Hari Malla > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya@ > > WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ; ; vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjya @>, WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ . com > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?> > >  > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > With best regards, > > V. V. Raman > > March 27, 2009 > > > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Bhaskar Jee wrote : " What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? Howis this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. " The very survival of Vedic Jyotisha is threatened by all false propaganda against it. Those who give a false date of Vedanga Jyotisha are not content with mere history, they have designs about the future as well. One's predictive abilities are enhanced not by mere recitation of rules of phalita jyotisha. Such abilities are preserved and enhanced by adherence to truth in all fields of thought and life, which is rewarded with grace of God, without which no one can become a good astrologer. Vedic Jyotisha is a part of Vedic way of life. Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Monday, March 30, 2009 2:28:36 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, Namaste. Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this mail. I just shared my thoughts. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > TO ALL : > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > -Vinay Jha. > ============ ======== ============ ===== > > , sunil_bhattacharjya @ wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > Namaskar, > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be much older.. Lagadhacharya' s date can be earlier than the date of composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much earlier. > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one another. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, , vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > Namaskar! > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > sincerely your, > > Hari Malla > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology; ; vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>, WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ . com > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?> > >  > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > With best regards, > > V. V. Raman > > March 27, 2009 > > > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Bhaskar Jee wrote : " What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? Howis this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. " A true history is indespensable for a true identity. We know a person only through learning his / her history. Those who are spreading false propaganda against Vedic Jyotisha have some designs for future which we must counter. Predictive abilities are enhanced not by a mere recitation of predictive formulae, but by strict adherence to truth in all walks of life. A vedic astrologer must never think of his/her Daal-roti. If he/she cannot know his/her own future, how can he/she know others' ? To be more strict and precise,one who earns a penny out of Jyotisha / chikitsaa / yajna / poojaa is a chaandaala according to Manusmriti, because these things are for amelioration of conditions of the afflicted people. There are numerous other professions for Daal-roti. In Kaliyuga, majority of astrologers will not accept such a view, but this majority will be wiped out at the end of Kaliyuga. I hoped Mr AK Kaul will show his intellectual prowess by discussing the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. But Bhaskar Jee thinks such an exercize is futile.. Mr Kaul must feel relieved. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Monday, March 30, 2009 2:28:36 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, Namaste. Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this mail. I just shared my thoughts. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > TO ALL : > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > -Vinay Jha. > ============ ======== ============ ===== > > , sunil_bhattacharjya @ wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > Namaskar, > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be much older. Lagadhacharya' s date can be earlier than the date of composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much earlier. > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one another. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, , vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > Namaskar! > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > sincerely your, > > Hari Malla > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology; ; vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha.. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>, WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ . com > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?> > >  > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > With best regards, > > V. V. Raman > > March 27, 2009 > > > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Dear Vinay Jha, I gave you a chance to show case what you have got, and can share or give to the public, but unfortunately apart from criticism you have nothing to give to the astrology community. // The very survival of Vedic Jyotisha is threatened by all false propaganda against it. Those who give a false date of Vedanga Jyotisha are not content with mere history, they have designs about the future as well. // There have been many like you, who have threatened the existence of Jyotish, but could they, since centuries beyond the present one ? No they could not, and neither would you be able to. // One's predictive abilities are enhanced not by mere recitation of rules of phalita jyotisha. Such abilities are preserved and enhanced by adherence to truth in all fields of thought and life, which is rewarded with grace of God, without which no one can become a good astrologer // Before we try to teach the world who can be a good astrologer, we have to become one, first. Have You ? `How do you know who is not adhering to the truth in all fields of thoughts and Life ? You have to first practise and then preach. You tried to befool many members of the various Jyotish Groups by saying you have discovered something unique in astrology, but all you wanted was, to showcase a software with intentions to sell it, in future, which software too does not work, and you have filled your website with lots of stuff on astronomy which is nothing but copy paste. What have you given to your astronomy colleagues or juniors? Nothing. What have you given to your astrology Groups where you have been member of ? Nothing. You have only given criticism and hollow lectures. I defended you in one astrology Group when all were against You, but you tried to cut the head of the one who defended you. // An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself // Please also advise who is then going to pay the Astrologers Dal Roti ? //Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money.// Where does Manusmriti say this ? Please give us the shloka with the interpretation and translation both, along with the shloka number. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee wrote : " What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? Howis this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. " > > The very survival of Vedic Jyotisha is threatened by all false propaganda against it. Those who give a false date of Vedanga Jyotisha are not content with mere history, they have designs about the future as well. > > One's predictive abilities are enhanced not by mere recitation of rules of phalita jyotisha. Such abilities are preserved and enhanced by adherence to truth in all fields of thought and life, which is rewarded with grace of God, without which no one can become a good astrologer. Vedic Jyotisha is a part of Vedic way of life. Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money. > > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar bhaskar_jyotish > > Monday, March 30, 2009 2:28:36 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, > > Namaste. > > Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the > same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the > white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to > render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why > should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why > do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? > > What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to > finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going > to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How > is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this > knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. > > Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came > in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never > was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab > Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. > > We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of > birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no > horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about > fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since > thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who > knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past > from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? > > Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above > words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this > mail. I just shared my thoughts. > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ....> > wrote: > > > > TO ALL : > > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and > others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, > Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in > Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or > two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is > discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > > > -Vinay Jha. > > ============ ======== ============ ===== > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya @ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > > > Namaskar, > > > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga > Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the > Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple > of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be > much older.. Lagadhacharya' s date can be earlier than the date of > composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much > earlier. > > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE > given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. > However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known > to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years > before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a > statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean > that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one > another. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, > , vvrsps@ > > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > > Namaskar! > > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was > in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the > lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me > if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > > sincerely your, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > > WAVES-Vedic > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology; > ; vvrsps@ > > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata > after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is > not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been > mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were > composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he > goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia > without substantiating. > > > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous > approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I > resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>, > WAVES-Vedic > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ > . com > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > made your above hasty comment?> > > >  > > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my > comment as hasty. > > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with > the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the > same. > > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, > much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who > disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a > challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and > understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker > of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more > keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as > ancestral interpretations of the world. > > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical > astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists > who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. > But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the > upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because > such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western > corruption of the Hindu mind. > > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu > tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and > disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture > has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent > decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have > generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  > all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong > in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the > effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and > deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the > attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) > intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of > misguided > > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn > occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always > stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the > current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as > a model for the whole world. > > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. > It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set > out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were > essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, > rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am > inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are > trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those > keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing > of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that > this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, > with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off > on a tangent. > > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest > in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular > festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any > festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I > do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a > historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust > culture and evolving  tradition. > > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these > remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my > piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > > With best regards, > > > V. V. Raman > > > March 27, 2009 > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Vinay Jha wrote - // A true history is indespensable for a true identity. We know a person only through learning his / her history. // We know the true history of what we are into. for those who do not know this, we are not responsible and liable to spend our Life times to make them understand. // Those who are spreading false propaganda against Vedic Jyotisha have some designs for future which we must counter.// We are not God to counter all the evil in the world. Only those who are getting salaries for doing nothing can spend time on all this rubbish. Everybody is countering the untruths in his own way individually. does not mean that he will join with you. // Predictive abilities are enhanced not by a mere recitation of predictive formulae, but by strict adherence to truth in all walks of life.// Do not try to gauge or detrmine who is adhering how much into truth. Recitation is being done by you, and your advisors. First become a student, pass the exams, and then become a Teacher. // A vedic astrologer must never think of his/her Daal-roti. If he/she cannot know his/her own future, how can he/she know others' ? // How do you know whether one knows his or her future or not ? Who are you to determine this ? If a Vedic astrologer must never think of his /Her Daal Roti, then who will give this to him every afternoon and night ? Your goodself ? Or should he go begging ? //To be more strict and precise,one who earns a penny out of Jyotisha / chikitsaa / yajna / poojaa is a chaandaala according to Manusmriti, because these things are for amelioration of conditions of the afflicted people. // You mean all astrologers are chandala ?. You mean all Doctors are Chandala ? You mean all Pundits are Vhandala ? Have you told your family Doctor this when you paid him money for treatment of your ownself or your childen or your family members , that he is a Chandala ? Did you tell the Pandit who got you married and took money from your father in law for doing the marriage rituals, that he is a Chandala ? // There are numerous other professions for Daal-roti. In Kaliyuga, majority of astrologers will not accept such a view, but this majority will be wiped out at the end of Kaliyuga. // Please show me some professions for Daal roti and also for the thousands unemployed in India. How do you knwo that Kali Yuga has not already ended ? Or do you think that kaliyuga charan will last for 432000 years? // I hoped Mr AK Kaul will show his intellectual prowess by discussing the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. But Bhaskar Jee thinks such an exercize is futile.. Mr Kaul must feel relieved. // Do not try to pit me against Mr.Kaul. I havealready given him a set of queries which he could not answer, long back. yes discussing the date of vedanga Jyotisha is actually futile. That is our job, the jyotishis job and not your job. You have neither proved yourself as having knowledge in astrology, and neither proved to know anything on astronomy. Do not show us your degrees in astronomy or astrology from small unknown and unrecognised places. Anybody can get these by paying little money. If you knew at least something you would have spoken about predictive astrology and notall this nonsensical talks. Now leave me alone. I am not getting free salaries or free grants for doing nothing, by making a fool of people. Bhaskar. , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Bhaskar Jee wrote : " What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? Howis this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. " > > A true history is indespensable for a true identity. We know a person only through learning his / her history. Those who are spreading false propaganda against Vedic Jyotisha have some designs for future which we must counter. > > Predictive abilities are enhanced not by a mere recitation of predictive formulae, but by strict adherence to truth in all walks of life. > > A vedic astrologer must never think of his/her Daal-roti. If he/she cannot know his/her own future, how can he/she know others' ? To be more strict and precise,one who earns a penny out of Jyotisha / chikitsaa / yajna / poojaa is a chaandaala according to Manusmriti, because these things are for amelioration of conditions of the afflicted people. There are numerous other professions for Daal-roti. In Kaliyuga, majority of astrologers will not accept such a view, but this majority will be wiped out at the end of Kaliyuga. > > I hoped Mr AK Kaul will show his intellectual prowess by discussing the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. But Bhaskar Jee thinks such an exercize is futile.. Mr Kaul must feel relieved. > > -VJ > > > > > ________________________________ > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > > Monday, March 30, 2009 2:28:36 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, > > Namaste. > > Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the > same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the > white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to > render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why > should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why > do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? > > What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to > finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going > to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How > is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this > knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. > > Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came > in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never > was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab > Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. > > We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of > birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no > horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about > fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since > thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who > knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past > from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? > > Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above > words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this > mail. I just shared my thoughts. > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > wrote: > > > > TO ALL : > > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and > others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, > Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in > Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or > two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is > discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > > > -Vinay Jha. > > ============ ======== ============ ===== > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya @ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > > > Namaskar, > > > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga > Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the > Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple > of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be > much older. Lagadhacharya' s date can be earlier than the date of > composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much > earlier. > > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE > given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. > However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known > to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years > before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a > statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean > that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one > another. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, > , vvrsps@ > > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > > Namaskar! > > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was > in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the > lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me > if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > > sincerely your, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > > WAVES-Vedic > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology; > ; vvrsps@ > > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata > after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha.. He harps on the fact rashi is > not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been > mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were > composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he > goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia > without substantiating. > > > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous > approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I > resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>, > WAVES-Vedic > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ > . com > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > made your above hasty comment?> > > >  > > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my > comment as hasty. > > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with > the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the > same. > > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, > much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who > disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a > challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and > understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker > of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more > keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as > ancestral interpretations of the world. > > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical > astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists > who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. > But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the > upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because > such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western > corruption of the Hindu mind. > > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu > tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and > disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture > has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent > decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have > generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  > all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong > in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the > effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and > deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the > attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) > intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of > misguided > > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn > occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always > stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the > current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as > a model for the whole world. > > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. > It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set > out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were > essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, > rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am > inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are > trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those > keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing > of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that > this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, > with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off > on a tangent. > > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest > in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular > festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any > festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I > do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a > historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust > culture and evolving  tradition. > > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these > remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my > piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > > With best regards, > > > V. V. Raman > > > March 27, 2009 > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 It will be better if we modify the following statement of Vinayji. Quote " Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money. " Unquote The Lord has removed the memory of our past life for the good reason that we can start anew. However our past karmaphal will manifest in this life and astrology can give a hint of that so that this helps a person to cope up with those effects. Therefore the astrologer should remember that astrology is for the service of the humanity. If a person misuses astrlogy to extract money from the public that will be a despicable act and that person will be like a Chandala. An honest astrologer is not Chandala but a very respectable person as Varahamihira told. However there is no free lunch. Astrologer has to be paid dakshina or fees but the amount of dakshina should not be rigid. In the olden days there was a minimum dakshina amount for a service and one who could afford could give more. That way the astrologer could have an honest livelihood and at the same time he will not be greedy. Manu did not allow the regular professionals like physicians, temple-priests and astrologers to attend the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas as those people had the means of livelihood. In the above religious karyas one has to invite and feed only the poor intellectuals and one has to give dakshina to them at the end of the ceremony. Manu did not demean these professionals. Kaulji has twisted the meaning of the verses to serve his anti-astrology tirade. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Monday, March 30, 2009, 11:19 AM Bhaskar Jee wrote : " What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? Howis this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. " The very survival of Vedic Jyotisha is threatened by all false propaganda against it. Those who give a false date of Vedanga Jyotisha are not content with mere history, they have designs about the future as well. One's predictive abilities are enhanced not by mere recitation of rules of phalita jyotisha. Such abilities are preserved and enhanced by adherence to truth in all fields of thought and life, which is rewarded with grace of God, without which no one can become a good astrologer. Vedic Jyotisha is a part of Vedic way of life. Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money. -VJ ____________ _________ _________ __ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> Monday, March 30, 2009 2:28:36 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, Namaste. Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this mail. I just shared my thoughts. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > TO ALL : > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > -Vinay Jha. > ============ ======== ============ ===== > > , sunil_bhattacharjya @ wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > Namaskar, > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be much older.. Lagadhacharya' s date can be earlier than the date of composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much earlier. > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one another. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, , vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > Namaskar! > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > sincerely your, > > Hari Malla > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology; ; vvrsps@ > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia without substantiating. > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>, WAVES-Vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ . com > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment?> > >  > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my comment as hasty. > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the same. > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as ancestral interpretations of the world. > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western corruption of the Hindu mind. > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of misguided > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as a model for the whole world. > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off on a tangent. > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust culture and evolving  tradition. > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > With best regards, > > V. V. Raman > > March 27, 2009 > > > >  > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRe: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Date: Monday, March 30, 2009, 12:29 PMIt will be better if we modify the following statement of Vinayji.Quote"Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money."UnquoteThe Lord has removed the memory of our past life for the good reason that we can start anew. However our past karmaphal will manifest in this life and astrology can give a hint of that so that this helps a person to cope up with those effects. Therefore the astrologer should remember that astrology is for the service of the humanity. If a person misuses astrlogy to extract money from the public that will be a despicable act and that person will be like a Chandala. An honest astrologer is not Chandala but a very respectable person as Varahamihira told. However there is no free lunch. Astrologer has to be paid dakshina or fees but the amount of dakshina should not be rigid. In the olden days there was a minimum dakshina amount for a service and one who could afford could give more. That way the astrologer could have an honest livelihood and at the same time he will not be greedy. Manu did not allow the regular professionals like physicians, temple-priests and astrologers to attend the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas as those people had the means of livelihood. In the above religious karyas one has to invite and feed only the poor intellectuals and one has to give dakshina to them at the end of the ceremony. Manu did not demean these professionals. Kaulji has twisted the meaning of the verses to serve his anti-astrology tirade.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Kaulji will twist any statement to suit his purposes, and so will these newcomers who come in garb of helping for the cause of astrology but actually just come in for commercialisation, and talk of Sermons and Moral policing when they are themselves standing high and aloft on strength of degrees earned in the subject of astrology or astronomy , regardless of theese coming from unrecognised institutions. With strength of these degrees they manage to become chairman , secretary or the Caretakers of various important positions in the Bhaiyya community , from which they are able to seize a sizeable monthly remunerations which of course comes in return of doing nothing, and then they try to teach the astrologer community what is a astrologer and who can become one ? Ask them to predict a simple query on when they will get a new house and they will look bonkers and hither and thither. Ask them a simple question on astronomy and they know nothing . So what are they doing here, what are they here for, and what is their purpose here, even they themselves do not know. I know that this gentleman has been called by the moderator of a group, but what is the sense ? theres never has been any contribution from him in any group. He has nothing to teach, no experience or knowledge to share, but just doing criticism. What is the purpose of his Life itself is shrouded in darkness. Not only kaul , but his followers like Vinay Jha have also unfortunately twisted these statemments and just acceopted hearsay without making any effort to read manusmriti or do some original research. They just cling to the shoulders of others without standing on their own feet and making an attempt to understand the truth of Manusmriti. Thank You for giving the truth to the readers. Bhaskar. -- In , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > It will be better if we modify the following statement of Vinayji. > > Quote > > " Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. > Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should > think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says > astrology should not be used for making money. " > > Unquote > > The Lord has removed the memory of our past life for the good reason that we can start anew. However our past karmaphal will manifest in this life and astrology can give a hint of that so that this helps a person to cope up with those effects. Therefore the astrologer should remember that astrology is for the service of the humanity. If a person misuses astrlogy to extract money from the public that will be a despicable act and that person will be like a Chandala. An honest astrologer is not Chandala but a very respectable person as Varahamihira told. However there is no free lunch. Astrologer has to be paid dakshina or fees but the amount of dakshina should not be rigid. In the olden days there was a minimum dakshina amount for a service and one who could afford could give more. That way the astrologer could have an honest livelihood and at the same time he will not be greedy. > > Manu did not allow the regular professionals like physicians, temple-priests and astrologers to attend the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas as those people had the means of livelihood. In the above religious karyas one has to invite and feed only the poor intellectuals and one has to give dakshina to them at the end of the ceremony. Manu did not demean these professionals. Kaulji has twisted the meaning of the verses to serve his anti-astrology tirade. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Mon, 3/30/09, Vinay Jha vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Vinay Jha vinayjhaa16 > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Monday, March 30, 2009, 11:19 AM > > > > > > Bhaskar Jee wrote : " What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? Howis this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. " > > > > The very survival of Vedic Jyotisha is threatened by all false propaganda against it. Those who give a false date of Vedanga Jyotisha are not content with mere history, they have designs about the future as well. > > > > One's predictive abilities are enhanced not by mere recitation of rules of phalita jyotisha. Such abilities are preserved and enhanced by adherence to truth in all fields of thought and life, which is rewarded with grace of God, without which no one can become a good astrologer. Vedic Jyotisha is a part of Vedic way of life. Daal-roti is fetched not by knowledge, but by one's own horoscope. Sometimes, fools make more money than wise men. An astrologer should think of Daal-roti of others, not of himself / herself. Manusmriti says astrology should not be used for making money. > > > > -VJ > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish@ .co. in> > > > > Monday, March 30, 2009 2:28:36 PM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Shri Vinay ji and all, > > > > Namaste. > > > > Why must we feel happy when a Indian film wins Oscars. Why not give the > > same reverence to the Filmfare Awards. Why we have this affinity to the > > white skin. Why does words of Colebrook matters so much to us, as to > > render our precious time in explaining and proving what we know. Why > > should we expect them to speak the truth which we know and accept. Why > > do we need their signatures on the truths we know or are aware of ? > > > > What is going to happen when we finally after discussion get down to > > finding the date of Vedanga Jyotisha. After this finding how is it going > > to help " Jyotisha " ? How is this knowledge going to help mankind ? How > > is this going to increase ones predictive abilities ? How is this > > knowledge going to fetch a professional astrologers Dal Roti. > > > > Whatever date one may come with, for me , from the time we Hindus came > > in existence, I believe jyotisha existed since then, because there never > > was a time when Veda was not, and so is what I believe for the Arab > > Nomads , and all other countries who have contributed to Jyotish. > > > > We have no ammunitions and artillery to fix even our parents date of > > birth, who were born in this same century, for those who had no > > horoscopes made for them ( Most of them ), and here we are talking about > > fixing the Vedanga Jyotish date which may have been, not only since > > thousands of years, but maybe from a million years since existence, who > > knows. Just because we do not have a reference a millions years past > > from now, how can we say that it did not existed since then ? > > > > Please note , those who are interested must not discouraged by my above > > words, but continue your search and discussions, while ignoring this > > mail. I just shared my thoughts. > > > > best wishes, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ....> > > wrote: > > > > > > TO ALL : > > > The date of Vedanga Jyotisha was wrongly deduced by Colebrooke and > > others. Even 2400 BC is not its date. I request Sunil K. Bhattacharjya, > > Hari Mallaji and others to discuss ALL the combinations mentioned in > > Vedanga Jyotisha while deducing its date, instead of relying on one or > > two combinations. I would like to participate in this topic if it is > > discussed seriously and in an unbiased manner. > > > > > > -Vinay Jha. > > > ============ ======== ============ ===== > > > > > > , sunil_bhattacharjya @ wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > > > > > Namaskar, > > > > > > > > I am glad that you have asked a good question. The Vedanga > > Jyotisha refers to Lagadhacharya in third person. This means that the > > Vedanga Jyotisha, that we read, was actually composed by some disciple > > of Lagadhacharya though the nature of the material it contains may be > > much older.. Lagadhacharya' s date can be earlier than the date of > > composition of the Vedanga Jyotisha but one cannot say how much > > earlier. > > > > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha was composed in 2400 BCE and the date of 1400 BCE > > given by Colbrooke is not correct as I had shown in an earlier mail. > > However what the Vedanga Jyotisha wrote was astronomical knowledge known > > to Vedic scholars like Bhishma much earlier than 2400 BCE. > > > > > > > > The Mahabharata war was fought in 3139 BCE, ie about 36.5 years > > before the start of the Kali yuga in 3102 BCE. Bhishma made a > > statement statement before the date of Vedanga Jyotisha need not mean > > that Jyotish was not known before 2400 BCE. They do not exclude one > > another. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Hari Malla harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, > > , vvrsps@ > > > > Saturday, March 28, 2009, 8:45 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > Is it not true that mahabharat is when the vedanga jyotish was > > in use? This seems to be the case as Bhisma cites the example of the > > lunar year and months as per the vedanga jyotish.Please enlighten me > > if the case is otherwise.thank you. > > > > sincerely your, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya @ > > > > WAVES-Vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology; > > ; vvrsps@ > > > > Saturday, March 28, 2009 2:40:27 AM > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Ramanji, > > > > > > > > Kaulji has poor idea of chronology. He puts the date of Mahabharata > > after the composition of Vedanga Jyotisha. He harps on the fact rashi is > > not mentioned in Vedanga jyotisha ignoring the fact that rashi has been > > mentioned in the other texts such as Bhagavata purana, which were > > composed earlier than the date of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha and he > > goes on saying that the rashis are imported from Babylonia > > without substantiating. > > > > > > > > It is said that nectar mixed with poison is poison. His poisonous > > approach is harmful to Hindu Jyotisha. It is for that reason that I > > resented your uncritical praise for his approach. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > " Sunil Bhattacharjya " <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>, > > WAVES-Vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ > > . com > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 6:09 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  <In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > > made your above hasty comment?> > > > >  > > > > Shri Bhattacharjya: > > > > This is a very fair question, except for your describing my > > comment as hasty. > > > > I am not sure I can answer it to your satisfaction, but, with > > the group’s indulgence, I will try to explain my position all the > > same. > > > > I applaud Kaulji, not so much for everything he has been saying, > > much  less for the tone in which he sometimes answers those who > > disagree with him, but for his courage to challenge long-held notions, a > > challenge that is also based on considerable scholarship and > > understanding. In this matter, from my perspective, he is a Hindu seeker > > of the enlightened kind, unlike otherwise genuine seekers who are more > > keen on defending and preserving what has come down to us as > > ancestral interpretations of the world. > > > > I have taught (modern) observational astronomy and theoretical > > astrophysics at the university level, and I know many Hindu scientists > > who have serious misgivings about Vedic or any other type of astrology.. > > But they dare not speak out on this matter, for fear of offending the > > upholders of orthodoxy.  To an extent I empathize with them, because > > such doubts are sometimes interpreted as resulting from Western > > corruption of the Hindu mind. > > > > Yet, as I see it, this is being  fully faithful to the Hindu > > tradition. In classical India scholars often discussed, debated, and > > disagreed on many matters of crucial import: which is why Hindu culture > > has evolved to become so rich and multifaceted. Unfortunately, in recent > > decades, provoked largely by external and internal threats which have > > generated feelings of insecurity, many Hindu thinkers have become  > > all too defensive and afraid of openly recognizing anything wrong > > in our tradition and or unpleasant in our society. Declarations to the > > effect that our religion is <superior> to all others and > > deprecation of  other faith systems, though understandable in the > > attacked context in which we find ourselves, are not (in my view) > > intrinsic to our tradition. They are shrill and unseemly echoes of > > misguided > > > >  Abrahamic postures,  and it pains me to see this ugly turn > > occurring in our framework. If anything the Hindu mode has always > > stressed the multiplicity of paths to spiritual fulfillment. In the > > current muddled juncture in human history, this insight should serve as > > a model for the whole world. > > > > No one can deny that there is much profound wisdom in the Vedas. > > It is worth exploring and unraveling this, as this group has rightly set > > out to do. Yet, for me as for many other genuine Hindus, the Vedas were > > essentially utterances of remarkably alert sage-poets of our past, > > rather than Divine truths that cannot or should not be challenged. I am > > inclined to think that  the insights of our great rishis  are > > trivialized when they are regarded as beyond critical analysis. Those > > keen minds would not be flattered by meek submission and rote rehashing > > of whatever that had said in a different age. But I also recognize that > > this view of mine arises because I talk from the analytical plane, > > with hardly any spiritual awakening on the matter. Now I have gone off > > on a tangent. > > > > To come back to the original issue, while I myself have no interest > > in when (on which particular date), whether, or how  a particular > > festival is celebrated, since the essence and meaning of any > > festival (for me) is independent of the date or manner of celebration, I > > do appreciate Kaulji’s careful investigation of the matter with a > > historical spirit of inquiry which is a sine qua non for any robust > > culture and evolving  tradition. > > > > I trust I have not been more obnoxious than Mr. Rathenam with these > > remarks, and if I have been, I apologize to the group. I have spoken my > > piece, and I will not interfere with your deliberations any more. > > > > With best regards, > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > March 27, 2009 > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Sunil jee, The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! Rohiniranjan , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: > > Marg <margie9 > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear M, > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > waves-vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > You wrote > > > > Quote > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > Unquote > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > > Raman <vvrsps > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > With regards, > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > __,,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Sunil I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called dasa. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Marg, Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. Best wishes, S --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM Dear Sunil I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear M, Please name some books on it. Best wishes, S --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM Dear Sunil In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Ramanji, You wrote Quote I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. Unquote When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: Raman <vvrsps Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM Dear Kaulji: I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. With regards, V. V. Raman March 26, 2009 __,,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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