Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Rohini There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Sunil jee, The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! Rohiniranjan , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: > > Marg <margie9 > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear M, > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > waves-vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > You wrote > > > > Quote > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > Unquote > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > > Raman <vvrsps > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > With regards, > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > __,,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by whatever name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the product of the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No need to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which is the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has come from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the first astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he mentioned ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up here " . With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting all the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres from each other, we no more remain far . Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with help of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any petty squabbles like these. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Sunil > I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called dasa. > best wishes > M > > - > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Marg, > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9 wrote: > > Marg margie9 > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > Dear Sunil > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Dear M, > > Please name some books on it. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > Dear Sunil > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > waves-vedic > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Dear Ramanji, > > You wrote > > Quote > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > Unquote > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps wrote: > > Raman vvrsps > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > Dear Kaulji: > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > With regards, > > V. V. Raman > > March 26, 2009 > > __,,___ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Bhaskar ji, I like the idea of world view from the top. In this distressingly complex world of infinite divisions, promise of simplicity and clarity of vision would be a temptation hard to resist. Seats available on the next mission? By the way it was Rakesh Sharma. Blame astrology for being muggy? Absent-minded professors now being ‘made in astrology’. Well that’s good news! Truly, internet can be a great adhesive force, if only we allow our creases to be cemented! Regards Neelam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Neelam ji, Oh yes, it was Rakesh Sharma. What a cheerful beautiful face I remember it vividly when he was being telecasted from his space ship. I have seen one of his recent photos too, of course now he has got white hair (I dont know why they call it grey). He was a embodiment of virtue and accomplishment and a source of pride to us in those youthful days, and when i saw his recent photo getting old, it did pained me, but so have we seen our parents wither away with creases in their face lines, and so will our children see us when they grow a little more older. this is the way of life. regards/Bhaskar. , neelam gupta <neelamgupta07 wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar ji, > > I like the idea of world view from the top. In this distressingly complex > world of infinite divisions, promise of simplicity and clarity of vision > would be a temptation hard to resist. Seats available on the next mission? > > By the way it was Rakesh Sharma. Blame astrology for being muggy? > Absent-minded professors now being `made in astrology'. Well that's good > news! > > Truly, internet can be a great adhesive force, if only we allow our creases > to be cemented! > > Regards > Neelam > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Dear Bhaskar, There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer is the Moon in Arabic. Just for your info. - " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by whatever > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the product of > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No need > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. > > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which is > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. > > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has come > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the first > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he mentioned > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up here > " . > > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting all > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres from > each other, we no more remain far . > > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with help > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any petty > squabbles like these. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: >> >> Dear Sunil >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called dasa. >> best wishes >> M >> >> - >> Sunil Bhattacharjya >> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >> >> >> Dear Marg, >> >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? >> >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu > astrology and practice the same. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> S >> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9 wrote: >> >> Marg margie9 >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM >> >> Dear Sunil >> >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books > there >> >> best wishes >> >> M >> >> - >> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya >> >> >> >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM >> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >> >> Dear M, >> >> Please name some books on it. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> S >> >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: >> >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> >> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >> >> >> >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM >> >> Dear Sunil >> >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean > astrology. >> >> best wishes >> >> M >> >> - >> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya >> >> waves-vedic >> >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman >> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM >> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >> >> Dear Ramanji, >> >> You wrote >> >> Quote >> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. >> >> Unquote >> >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > justifiable? >> >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? >> >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. >> >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. >> >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. >> >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. >> >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > calendrical months be dropped. >> >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > made your above hasty comment? >> >> Regards, >> >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya >> >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps wrote: >> >> Raman vvrsps >> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >> >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic >> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM >> >> Dear Kaulji: >> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. >> >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless > truths. " >> >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the > critics of that Holy Book. >> >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > stagnation of many cultures.] >> >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > respect those who hold them. >> >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. >> >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > ordinary mortals are not privy to. >> >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. >> >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > contexts are really futile. >> >> With regards, >> >> V. V. Raman >> >> March 26, 2009 >> >> __,,___ >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Marg, While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! RR , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Rohini > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > best wishes > M > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > Rohiniranjan > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Margji and Rohiniranjanji, So many questions crop up. 1) Has anybody studied the chronological aspect as to since when the western astrologers started the practice of using the " Degree " system? Is it older than the Hindu systaem. 2) Is it the same as the " Dasha " system of the Indian astrology? Are there also the equivalents of the " Antardasha' and Pratyantardasha " in the western astrology? 3) Is there any equivalent of the Ashtottari dasha system there in the western astrology? 4) Does the western system predict the event in one's life like Indian dasha system can do? 5) Can you kindly name any ancient book where this western Degree system is described in detail? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 3:19 AM Dear Rohini There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Sunil jee, The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! Rohiniranjan , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 > wrote: > > Marg <margie9 > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear M, > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > waves-vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > You wrote > > > > Quote > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > Unquote > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > > Raman <vvrsps > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > With regards, > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > __,,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Rohiniranjanji, I read Leo's book almost forty years ago and if my memory serves me right his (Leo's) degrees, to my mind, is like what we add to indicate the exact position of a graha within a rashi and that is quite different from our Dasha system. Kindly correct me if I am wrong. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Rohiniranjan <jyotish_vani wrote: Rohiniranjan <jyotish_vani Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 4:04 PM Dear Marg, While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! RR , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Dear Rohini > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > best wishes > M > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > Rohiniranjan > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> wrote: > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear , How can there be a Dasha in the Western system , and yet be derived from the Arabic system ? It can come only from one place if it has to be there, either Arabia or The west. Something which is not in vogue and unheard of does not deem mention of. will you please explain this dasha system instead of just writing the names , because these names do not mean anything to us without supporting explanations of what is been used here and how. regards/Bhaskar. , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar, > There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called > Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. > There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer is the > Moon in Arabic. > Just for your info. > > > > > > - > " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by whatever > > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the product of > > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No need > > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. > > > > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in > > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which is > > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. > > > > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has come > > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the first > > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I > > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he mentioned > > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up here > > " . > > > > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting all > > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres from > > each other, we no more remain far . > > > > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with help > > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any petty > > squabbles like these. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > >> > >> Dear Sunil > >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called dasa. > >> best wishes > >> M > >> > >> - > >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >> > >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM > >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >> > >> > >> Dear Marg, > >> > >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > >> > >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in > > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu > > astrology and practice the same. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> S > >> > >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ wrote: > >> > >> Marg margie9@ > >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >> > >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > >> > >> Dear Sunil > >> > >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if > > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books > > there > >> > >> best wishes > >> > >> M > >> > >> - > >> > >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >> > >> > >> > >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > >> > >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >> > >> Dear M, > >> > >> Please name some books on it. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> S > >> > >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > >> > >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > >> > >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >> > >> > >> > >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > >> > >> Dear Sunil > >> > >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. > > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean > > astrology. > >> > >> best wishes > >> > >> M > >> > >> - > >> > >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >> > >> waves-vedic > >> > >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ > > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > >> > >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > >> > >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >> > >> Dear Ramanji, > >> > >> You wrote > >> > >> Quote > >> > >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >> > >> Unquote > >> > >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of > > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally > > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling > > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions > > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called > > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical > > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for > > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > > justifiable? > >> > >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate > > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the > > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several > > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and > > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > >> > >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji > > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on > > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally > > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in > > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also > > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that > > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek > > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. > > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > >> > >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed > > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the > > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the > > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > >> > >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said > > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > >> > >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming > > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or > > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does > > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have > > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake > > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these > > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > >> > >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita > > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. > > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as > > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > > calendrical months be dropped. > >> > >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but > > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating > > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > > made your above hasty comment? > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > >> > >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > >> > >> Raman vvrsps@ > >> > >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >> > >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > >> > >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > >> > >> Dear Kaulji: > >> > >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach > > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts > > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of > > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >> > >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, > > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer > > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless > > truths. " > >> > >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in > > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot > > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the > > critics of that Holy Book. > >> > >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > > stagnation of many cultures.] > >> > >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > > respect those who hold them. > >> > >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by > > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they > > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners > > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; > > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > >> > >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > >> > >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't > > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a > > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > >> > >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > > contexts are really futile. > >> > >> With regards, > >> > >> V. V. Raman > >> > >> March 26, 2009 > >> > >> __,,___ > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi Rohini Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Marg, While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! RR , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Rohini > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > best wishes > M > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > Rohiniranjan > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Dear Sunil These are good questions and I admire your quest to find out more. I haven't said much as I don't want to talk too much in depth about a western system on a jyotish list. I will send a private mail about the western 'dasa' system, which cannot be sent to the list due to the formatting which would get lost. If anyone else would like a copy they can send a mail requesting it. As for degrees, which you ask about, there are strong schools of study of the actual degrees of signs and much published about their meanings. You have only to download many free western astrol programmes to find that they include references to this subject with calculation and meaning of them included as well. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:01 AM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Margji and Rohiniranjanji, So many questions crop up. 1) Has anybody studied the chronological aspect as to since when the western astrologers started the practice of using the " Degree " system? Is it older than the Hindu systaem. 2) Is it the same as the " Dasha " system of the Indian astrology? Are there also the equivalents of the " Antardasha' and Pratyantardasha " in the western astrology? 3) Is there any equivalent of the Ashtottari dasha system there in the western astrology? 4) Does the western system predict the event in one's life like Indian dasha system can do? 5) Can you kindly name any ancient book where this western Degree system is described in detail? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 3:19 AM Dear Rohini There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Sunil jee, The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! Rohiniranjan , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 > wrote: > > Marg <margie9 > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear M, > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > waves-vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > You wrote > > > > Quote > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > Unquote > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > > Raman <vvrsps > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > With regards, > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > __,,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi Sunil There are many forms of prediction in western astrology. The astrology group I run locally has astrologers who use different types of western techniques, with great success I might add, even at beginner level. They are tolerating me using jyotish! However, experience teaches us that a poor tool in good hands is still effective, a good tool in bad hands is never going to work well at all. As for degrees, these are hugely important to some astrologers in the west and many have written books on the subject, Max Heindell, Bernadette Brady and others.I understand that the Chaldeans used the 360 degree system so it is very old indeed. best wishes M - Sunil Bhattacharjya Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:01 AM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Margji and Rohiniranjanji, So many questions crop up. 1) Has anybody studied the chronological aspect as to since when the western astrologers started the practice of using the " Degree " system? Is it older than the Hindu systaem. 2) Is it the same as the " Dasha " system of the Indian astrology? Are there also the equivalents of the " Antardasha' and Pratyantardasha " in the western astrology? 3) Is there any equivalent of the Ashtottari dasha system there in the western astrology? 4) Does the western system predict the event in one's life like Indian dasha system can do? 5) Can you kindly name any ancient book where this western Degree system is described in detail? Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Marg <margie9 wrote: Marg <margie9 Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 3:19 AM Dear Rohini There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Sunil jee, The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! Rohiniranjan , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Marg, > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > Best wishes, > > S > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9 > wrote: > > Marg <margie9 > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > best wishes > > M > > - > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear M, > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > waves-vedic > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > You wrote > > > > Quote > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > Unquote > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps wrote: > > > > Raman <vvrsps > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > With regards, > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > __,,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Separate stages of a relationship, temporary or permanent with any Book 1) Glancing through a book in a Public Library or a Bookshop. 2) Going through some pages hurriedly without anything registering for effect. 3) Buying a Book. 4) Keeping it just for the sake of keeping. 5) Reading it, 6) Understanding the contents therein. 7) Digesting the contents there in. Books Title - The Progressed horoscope. Book author - Alan Leo. Chapter XI Page 61 Name of Chapter - Sub Divisions of Signs. Page 62 Table of Dwadashamsas Hope that the above answers whether Alan Leo was using this or not. Conclusion - Before commenting on anyone or his works, one must have complete knowledge, learning and understanding about the author and his works, to do so. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Rohini > Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. > I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. > best wishes > M > > > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Marg, > > While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! > > RR > > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini > > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > > best wishes > > M > > > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > S > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Apart from Progressions used in the West, which too has the base in The Indian Rigvedic and Nadi system, there is no System of dasha ever used, in the Western system, to denote what will happen when, to a native in his Life, except for Character analysis done from planets in sign, and aspects , at which the Westerners are expert at. This of course does not imply that we have nothing to learn from them, Gordons degrees, Charubels Degrees, and one more (I do not remember the name ) are the insights penned down through Yogic learnings. The Secondary and primary directions both, have been Mastered by the westerners which the Indians could not do, due to continous invasions on their country, by foreign invaders, and most of their Manuscripts having been burned by the Zealous invaders ( Takshashill had so many manuscripts that it was burning for full 6 months which precious knowledge were lost to eternity) and the Indianstill today have no time for research work due to spending their Life times in making both ends meet, so cannot blame them. Alan Leo has made a major blunder in his computation of Progressed Horoscopes which he understood and accepted at a later stage of his Life ( Which I will not talk of now, I need experts and unbiased minds who have thorough knowledge of western progressions with whom I can discuss this) The ultimate point which I am trying to push home is this, that till the time we remain confined in boundaries, our academic growth will remain stagnatory and stunted, and unless the East meets the west, without any qualms, and ready to share and appreciate each others belongings , and amalgamate in the whole, as a Whole, till then complete filteration of knowledge will not be available to all, but would only remain with a privileged few. last few days have been wasted in childish and mindless discussions by big people ( By age) in discussing whose country was better in astrology and when, and in putting silly claims and asking for proofs. is this what good astrologers should be doing at their ages ? Is this what maturity is all about ? is this known as a wiseness in any astrologer ? Can anybody ever think of becoming a good respectable astrologer with such inhibitions in his/her system ? No Bos. that cannot be possible. regards/Bhaskar. , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear Sunil > These are good questions and I admire your quest to find out more. > I haven't said much as I don't want to talk too much in depth about a western system on a jyotish list. > I will send a private mail about the western 'dasa' system, which cannot be sent to the list due to the formatting which would get lost. > If anyone else would like a copy they can send a mail requesting it. > As for degrees, which you ask about, there are strong schools of study of the actual degrees of signs and much published about their meanings. You have only to download many free western astrol programmes to find that they include references to this subject with calculation and meaning of them included as well. > best wishes > M > > - > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:01 AM > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Margji and Rohiniranjanji, > > So many questions crop up. > > 1) > Has anybody studied the chronological aspect as to since when the western astrologers started the practice of using the " Degree " system? Is it older than the Hindu systaem. > 2) > Is it the same as the " Dasha " system of the Indian astrology? Are there also the equivalents of the " Antardasha' and Pratyantardasha " in the western astrology? > 3) > Is there any equivalent of the Ashtottari dasha system there in the western astrology? > 4) > Does the western system predict the event in one's life like Indian dasha system can do? > 5) > Can you kindly name any ancient book where this western Degree system is described in detail? > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Marg margie9 wrote: > > Marg margie9 > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 3:19 AM > > Dear Rohini > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > best wishes > M > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > Dear Sunil jee, > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > Rohiniranjan > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > S > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ > wrote: > > > > Marg margie9@ > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > best wishes > > > > M > > > > - > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Raman vvrsps@ > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Marg, I think the air is getting a bit dusty on this thread :-) Addey was to my best belief not using harmonics as a 'spin' on the jyotish varga system! I think he was taken more by the mathematical/musical basis of Harmonics! That said, it is interesting that eastern and western practitioners have tuned into, separately or jointly or sequentially (who cares?) on the basic fact that both systems in a sense utilize the underlying theme of harmonics even though the specifics may differ! Can no one see the 'beauty' and elegance in that possibility? The same thing about the Vimshottari dasha! Jyotish uses the progression of moon as the basis of dasha although it may not be described so literally! Something that KP tuned into if one stops fighting and ponders calmly on that simple observation! If reincarnation is the TRUTH and all believe in that, it is futile to fight over what is Indian and what is not, because what one is today, one may not have been in the past birth and perhaps would not be so in the next birth. Let us all remember that and at the same time, let us remember that what we currently attribute to an alien culture may in some birth become our own. The critical thing is to bring the passion and zeal to then that life-plan in our own or different culture (which will be a moot point, because in that birth time it would become our own culture!). This ALSO implies that we should respect other cultures and also be thankful for anything we received from that culture, because it all comes back home, if one thinks in a long long stretched out string of reincarnations. I realize that some religions do not believe in or have not permitted their believers to focus too much on that which many of us believe in as a reality, but then that represents a conceptual and communication gap! :-) RR , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Rohini > Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. > I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. > best wishes > M > > > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Marg, > > While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! > > RR > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini > > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > > best wishes > > M > > > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > S > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 - " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan " Gunes " <gunesaksan Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:45 PM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > Dear Bhaskar, > Western astrology which they use today is not derived by Western means of > French, Italian or Scandinavian astrologers. Western from India can be > also not so long distance. > It is derived from Egypt, Babilonia, Harran, Arabic, Persian, and Jewish > old wise humans and their texts. You ask how, all those places were great centers of commerce, so here comes the expansion of the knowledge. Between all those countries, please go deeply into Egypt and Sudan if you want to reach the most profound influence in the mundane mythology and + the oldest. The vogue is not the history and you should look, and we should look to the history. For the Firdaria system, the most important thing, it is the beginning, depending on the chart or the native' s diurinal or nocturnal birth. For diurnal charts, the period begins with the Sun, Ven, Merc, Moon, Saturn, Jup, Mars, Rahu and Ketu. Each one has a different time range. For nocturnal charts, the period begins with the Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Rahu, Ketu, Sun, Venus, Mercury. you asked for a by the way: this is from another mail, you say: ''Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from you.'' but with a PREVIOUS MAIL, same day you requested: (Copy/paste) wiriting to Vinay Jee I request for the following proofs , for which claims were presented by a supposed to be Learned member of the group - 1) Proof of the Tithis system having been known in the West before the Indians knew it. 2) Proof that the Knowledge of astrology in other countries was prior to the time, the Indians gained it. 3) Proof of the origin of Dasha system in the west. 4) Proof of having learnt the best time of conception after speculations on the Indian mythological stories. Since the claims were put up on this group, I request those who have ... You may be in disharmony with yourself? Reading a plenty of mails, perhaps you need Vinay Jee for his good predictions, he, can be a good astrologer. Do you need to understand the great history and knowledge with the roots of astrology or a good astrolger to be patched? You should read and try to understand more history, before the breakfast, > > > > > > - > " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:51 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > >> >> Dear , >> >> How can there be a Dasha in the Western system , and yet be derived from >> the Arabic system ? It can come only from one place if it has to be >> there, either Arabia or The west. >> >> Something which is not in vogue and unheard of does not deem mention of. >> >> will you please explain this dasha system instead of just writing the >> names , because these names do not mean anything to us without >> supporting explanations of what is been used here and how. >> >> regards/Bhaskar. >> >> >> >> >> , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Bhaskar, >>> There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called >>> Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. >>> There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer >> is the >>> Moon in Arabic. >>> Just for your info. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - >>> " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish >>> >>> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM >>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >>> >>> > >>> > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by >> whatever >>> > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the >> product of >>> > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No >> need >>> > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. >>> > >>> > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in >>> > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which >> is >>> > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. >>> > >>> > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has >> come >>> > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the >> first >>> > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I >>> > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he >> mentioned >>> > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up >> here >>> > " . >>> > >>> > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting >> all >>> > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres >> from >>> > each other, we no more remain far . >>> > >>> > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with >> help >>> > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any >> petty >>> > squabbles like these. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear Sunil >>> >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called >> dasa. >>> >> best wishes >>> >> M >>> >> >>> >> - >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya >>> >> >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Dear Marg, >>> >> >>> >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? >>> >> >>> >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. >> in >>> > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn >> Hindu >>> > astrology and practice the same. >>> >> >>> >> Best wishes, >>> >> >>> >> S >>> >> >>> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Marg margie9@ >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >> >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM >>> >> >>> >> Dear Sunil >>> >> >>> >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however >> if >>> > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some >> books >>> > there >>> >> >>> >> best wishes >>> >> >>> >> M >>> >> >>> >> - >>> >> >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM >>> >> >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >> >>> >> Dear M, >>> >> >>> >> Please name some books on it. >>> >> >>> >> Best wishes, >>> >> >>> >> S >>> >> >>> >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> >>> >> >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM >>> >> >>> >> Dear Sunil >>> >> >>> >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a >>> > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe >> especially. >>> > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from >> Chaldean >>> > astrology. >>> >> >>> >> best wishes >>> >> >>> >> M >>> >> >>> >> - >>> >> >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya >>> >> >>> >> waves-vedic >>> >> >>> >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ >>> > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman >>> >> >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM >>> >> >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >> >>> >> Dear Ramanji, >>> >> >>> >> You wrote >>> >> >>> >> Quote >>> >> >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed >> approach >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant >> efforts >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries >> of >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. >>> >> >>> >> Unquote >>> >> >>> >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now >>> > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that >>> > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group >> of >>> > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis >> mentally >>> > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes >> resembling >>> > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in >>> > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed >> divisions >>> > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been >> called >>> > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of >> Tropical >>> > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system >> for >>> > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it >>> > justifiable? >>> >> >>> >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among >>> > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to >> participate >>> > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges >> the >>> > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in >> several >>> > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to >>> > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not >>> > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently >> and >>> > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by >>> > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? >>> >> >>> >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows >>> > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. >> Kaulji >>> > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were >>> > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he >> goes on >>> > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. >>> > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura >> (literally >>> > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana >> in >>> > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I >> also >>> > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it >> that >>> > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in >> Greek >>> > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and >>> > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek >> astrology. >>> > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. >>> >> >>> >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be >> observed >>> > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural >>> > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the >>> > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when >> the >>> > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that >> the >>> > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no >>> > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. >>> >> >>> >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not >>> > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are >>> > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He >> said >>> > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my >>> > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. >>> >> >>> >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. >>> > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) >>> > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. >>> > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's >> defaming >>> > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala >> or >>> > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji >> does >>> > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to >> have >>> > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include >>> > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the >> mistake >>> > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between >> these >>> > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree >> says. >>> >> >>> >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months >>> > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad >> Gita >>> > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient >> times. >>> > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in >>> > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the >>> > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month >> as >>> > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal >>> > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin >>> > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and >>> > certain other things will have to be observed according to the >>> > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji >>> > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient >>> > calendrical months be dropped. >>> >> >>> >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues >> but >>> > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by >> mutilating >>> > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you >>> > made your above hasty comment? >>> >> >>> >> Regards, >>> >> >>> >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya >>> >> >>> >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Raman vvrsps@ >>> >> >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth >>> >> >>> >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic >>> >> >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM >>> >> >>> >> Dear Kaulji: >>> >> >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed >> approach >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant >> efforts >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries >> of >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. >>> >> >>> >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these >> endeavors, >>> > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who >> answer >>> > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not >>> > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain >> timeless >>> > truths. " >>> >> >>> >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote >> in >>> > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened >> cannot >>> > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of >> the >>> > critics of that Holy Book. >>> >> >>> >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and >>> > stagnation of many cultures.] >>> >> >>> >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I >>> > respect those who hold them. >>> >> >>> >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion >> by >>> > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and >> they >>> > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. >> Practitioners >>> > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or >> elsewhere; >>> > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. >>> >> >>> >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with >>> > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are >>> > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which >>> > ordinary mortals are not privy to. >>> >> >>> >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and >> can't >>> > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with >>> > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at >> a >>> > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. >>> >> >>> >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such >>> > contexts are really futile. >>> >> >>> >> With regards, >>> >> >>> >> V. V. Raman >>> >> >>> >> March 26, 2009 >>> >> >>> >> __,,___ >>> >> >>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear Gunes, Your mail is not convincing. You are not in conformity with the line of the thread or what is been discussed. Your revelations here about other cultures is not educative and does not say anything. Disharmony is at your side because you even cannot understand the simple thing, that my mail you copy pasted was not addressed to Mr.Vinay Jha but to some other member, which you should know had you kept your mind and perception levels open to the same. It would be needless to discuss anything with you, because i do not see that you have anything worthy for discussion at your end. therefore I would prefer if you do not communicate with me. I am not here for history or geography. This is for those who cannot understand astrology. So please do not advice. Bhaskar. , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan wrote: > > > - > " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan > " Gunes " <gunesaksan > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:45 PM > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Bhaskar, > > Western astrology which they use today is not derived by Western means of > > French, Italian or Scandinavian astrologers. Western from India can be > > also not so long distance. > > It is derived from Egypt, Babilonia, Harran, Arabic, Persian, and Jewish > > old wise humans and their texts. > > You ask how, all those places were great centers of commerce, so here comes > the > expansion of the knowledge. Between all those countries, please go deeply > into > Egypt and Sudan if you want to reach the most profound influence in the > mundane mythology and + the oldest. > > The vogue is not the history and you should look, and we should look to the > history. > For the Firdaria system, the most important thing, it is the beginning, > depending on the chart or the native' s > diurinal or nocturnal birth. For diurnal charts, the period begins with the > Sun, Ven, Merc, Moon, Saturn, Jup, Mars, Rahu and Ketu. > Each one has a different time range. > For nocturnal charts, the period begins with the Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, > Mars, Rahu, Ketu, Sun, Venus, Mercury. > you asked for a > > by the way: > this is from another mail, you say: > > ''Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is > actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues > , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here > to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. > In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from > you.'' > > > but with a PREVIOUS MAIL, same day > you requested: (Copy/paste) wiriting to Vinay Jee > > I request for the following proofs , for which claims were presented by a > supposed to be Learned member of the group - > > 1) Proof of the Tithis system having been known in the West before the > Indians knew it. > > 2) Proof that the Knowledge of astrology in other countries was prior to the > time, the Indians gained it. > > 3) Proof of the origin of Dasha system in the west. > > 4) Proof of having learnt the best time of conception after speculations on > the Indian mythological stories. > > Since the claims were put up on this group, I request those who have ... > > > You may be in disharmony with yourself? > > > Reading a plenty of mails, > perhaps you need Vinay Jee for his good predictions, he, can be a good > astrologer. > > > Do you need to understand the great history and knowledge with the roots of > astrology > or a good astrolger to be patched? > > You should read and try to understand more history, before the breakfast, > > > > > > > > > > > - > > " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish > > > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:51 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > >> > >> Dear , > >> > >> How can there be a Dasha in the Western system , and yet be derived from > >> the Arabic system ? It can come only from one place if it has to be > >> there, either Arabia or The west. > >> > >> Something which is not in vogue and unheard of does not deem mention of. > >> > >> will you please explain this dasha system instead of just writing the > >> names , because these names do not mean anything to us without > >> supporting explanations of what is been used here and how. > >> > >> regards/Bhaskar. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan@> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Bhaskar, > >>> There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called > >>> Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. > >>> There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer > >> is the > >>> Moon in Arabic. > >>> Just for your info. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ > >>> > >>> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM > >>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by > >> whatever > >>> > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the > >> product of > >>> > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No > >> need > >>> > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. > >>> > > >>> > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in > >>> > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which > >> is > >>> > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. > >>> > > >>> > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has > >> come > >>> > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the > >> first > >>> > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I > >>> > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he > >> mentioned > >>> > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up > >> here > >>> > " . > >>> > > >>> > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting > >> all > >>> > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres > >> from > >>> > each other, we no more remain far . > >>> > > >>> > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with > >> help > >>> > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any > >> petty > >>> > squabbles like these. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called > >> dasa. > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Marg, > >>> >> > >>> >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > >>> >> > >>> >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. > >> in > >>> > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn > >> Hindu > >>> > astrology and practice the same. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9@ > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however > >> if > >>> > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some > >> books > >>> > there > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear M, > >>> >> > >>> >> Please name some books on it. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > >>> > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe > >> especially. > >>> > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from > >> Chaldean > >>> > astrology. > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ > >>> > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Ramanji, > >>> >> > >>> >> You wrote > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> Unquote > >>> >> > >>> >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > >>> > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > >>> > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group > >> of > >>> > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis > >> mentally > >>> > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes > >> resembling > >>> > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > >>> > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed > >> divisions > >>> > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been > >> called > >>> > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of > >> Tropical > >>> > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system > >> for > >>> > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > >>> > justifiable? > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > >>> > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to > >> participate > >>> > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges > >> the > >>> > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in > >> several > >>> > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > >>> > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > >>> > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently > >> and > >>> > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > >>> > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > >>> >> > >>> >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > >>> > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. > >> Kaulji > >>> > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > >>> > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he > >> goes on > >>> > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > >>> > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura > >> (literally > >>> > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana > >> in > >>> > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I > >> also > >>> > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it > >> that > >>> > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in > >> Greek > >>> > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > >>> > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek > >> astrology. > >>> > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > >>> >> > >>> >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be > >> observed > >>> > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > >>> > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > >>> > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when > >> the > >>> > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that > >> the > >>> > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > >>> > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > >>> >> > >>> >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > >>> > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > >>> > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He > >> said > >>> > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > >>> > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > >>> >> > >>> >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > >>> > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > >>> > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > >>> > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's > >> defaming > >>> > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala > >> or > >>> > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji > >> does > >>> > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to > >> have > >>> > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > >>> > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the > >> mistake > >>> > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between > >> these > >>> > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree > >> says. > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > >>> > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad > >> Gita > >>> > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient > >> times. > >>> > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > >>> > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > >>> > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month > >> as > >>> > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > >>> > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > >>> > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > >>> > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > >>> > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > >>> > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > >>> > calendrical months be dropped. > >>> >> > >>> >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues > >> but > >>> > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by > >> mutilating > >>> > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > >>> > made your above hasty comment? > >>> >> > >>> >> Regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Raman vvrsps@ > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Kaulji: > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these > >> endeavors, > >>> > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who > >> answer > >>> > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > >>> > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain > >> timeless > >>> > truths. " > >>> >> > >>> >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote > >> in > >>> > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened > >> cannot > >>> > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of > >> the > >>> > critics of that Holy Book. > >>> >> > >>> >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > >>> > stagnation of many cultures.] > >>> >> > >>> >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > >>> > respect those who hold them. > >>> >> > >>> >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion > >> by > >>> > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and > >> they > >>> > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. > >> Practitioners > >>> > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or > >> elsewhere; > >>> > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > >>> >> > >>> >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > >>> > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > >>> > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > >>> > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > >>> >> > >>> >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and > >> can't > >>> > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > >>> > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at > >> a > >>> > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > >>> >> > >>> >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > >>> > contexts are really futile. > >>> >> > >>> >> With regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> V. V. Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> March 26, 2009 > >>> >> > >>> >> __,,___ > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 RR Jee, I endorse your statement : " If reincarnation is the TRUTH and all believe in that, it is futile to fight over what is Indian and what is not.....let us remember that what we currently attribute to an alien culture may in some birth become our own. ...I realize that some religions do not believe in or have not permitted their believers to focus too much on that which many of us believe in as a reality, but then that represents a conceptual and communication gap! " I do not want to discuss the originality or worth of various national schools of astrology, which one user is adamant on discussing. Your stament is marvellous : " Jyotish uses the progression of moon as the basis of (Vimshottari) dasha although it may not be described so literally! " Vimshottari Year of 360 days is based upon the lunar year of 360 lunar days (tithis). Vimshottari is computed from Moon's position, and it is wrong to impose solar year on it. but this statement can be proved only if one uses Suryasiddhantic true planets and not physical planets. This is the most important point I want to make. Suryasiddhantic true Moon is not difficult to compute and does not even need a software. This method will give astonishing results down to Praana-dashaa. No other (Vimshottari ) method can give 100% accurate results. -VJ ________________________________ Rohiniranjan <jyotish_vani Thursday, April 2, 2009 4:24:40 AM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Marg, I think the air is getting a bit dusty on this thread :-) Addey was to my best belief not using harmonics as a 'spin' on the jyotish varga system! I think he was taken more by the mathematical/ musical basis of Harmonics! That said, it is interesting that eastern and western practitioners have tuned into, separately or jointly or sequentially (who cares?) on the basic fact that both systems in a sense utilize the underlying theme of harmonics even though the specifics may differ! Can no one see the 'beauty' and elegance in that possibility? The same thing about the Vimshottari dasha! Jyotish uses the progression of moon as the basis of dasha although it may not be described so literally! Something that KP tuned into if one stops fighting and ponders calmly on that simple observation! If reincarnation is the TRUTH and all believe in that, it is futile to fight over what is Indian and what is not, because what one is today, one may not have been in the past birth and perhaps would not be so in the next birth. Let us all remember that and at the same time, let us remember that what we currently attribute to an alien culture may in some birth become our own. The critical thing is to bring the passion and zeal to then that life-plan in our own or different culture (which will be a moot point, because in that birth time it would become our own culture!). This ALSO implies that we should respect other cultures and also be thankful for anything we received from that culture, because it all comes back home, if one thinks in a long long stretched out string of reincarnations. I realize that some religions do not believe in or have not permitted their believers to focus too much on that which many of us believe in as a reality, but then that represents a conceptual and communication gap! :-) RR , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Rohini > Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. > I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. > best wishes > M > > > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Marg, > > While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! > > RR > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini > > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > > best wishes > > M > > > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > S > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear R Yes each tradition is worthy of study so why say one is better than another as each have something new to teach, thank goodness, which means the ocean of astrology is as vast as we could wish for. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:54 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Marg, I think the air is getting a bit dusty on this thread :-) Addey was to my best belief not using harmonics as a 'spin' on the jyotish varga system! I think he was taken more by the mathematical/musical basis of Harmonics! That said, it is interesting that eastern and western practitioners have tuned into, separately or jointly or sequentially (who cares?) on the basic fact that both systems in a sense utilize the underlying theme of harmonics even though the specifics may differ! Can no one see the 'beauty' and elegance in that possibility? The same thing about the Vimshottari dasha! Jyotish uses the progression of moon as the basis of dasha although it may not be described so literally! Something that KP tuned into if one stops fighting and ponders calmly on that simple observation! If reincarnation is the TRUTH and all believe in that, it is futile to fight over what is Indian and what is not, because what one is today, one may not have been in the past birth and perhaps would not be so in the next birth. Let us all remember that and at the same time, let us remember that what we currently attribute to an alien culture may in some birth become our own. The critical thing is to bring the passion and zeal to then that life-plan in our own or different culture (which will be a moot point, because in that birth time it would become our own culture!). This ALSO implies that we should respect other cultures and also be thankful for anything we received from that culture, because it all comes back home, if one thinks in a long long stretched out string of reincarnations. I realize that some religions do not believe in or have not permitted their believers to focus too much on that which many of us believe in as a reality, but then that represents a conceptual and communication gap! :-) RR , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Hi Rohini > Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. > I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. > best wishes > M > > > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Marg, > > While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! > > RR > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini > > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > > best wishes > > M > > > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > S > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 @ Gunes Aksan : Please read http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Vimshottari+Dasha esp. the titles " The Secret Behind Vimshottari Dasha System " and " Non-Indian Variants of Vimshottari System " . You may like to read the rest. -VJ ===================== ================= , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan wrote: > > > - > " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan > " Gunes " <gunesaksan > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:45 PM > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Bhaskar, > > Western astrology which they use today is not derived by Western means of > > French, Italian or Scandinavian astrologers. Western from India can be > > also not so long distance. > > It is derived from Egypt, Babilonia, Harran, Arabic, Persian, and Jewish > > old wise humans and their texts. > > You ask how, all those places were great centers of commerce, so here comes > the > expansion of the knowledge. Between all those countries, please go deeply > into > Egypt and Sudan if you want to reach the most profound influence in the > mundane mythology and + the oldest. > > The vogue is not the history and you should look, and we should look to the > history. > For the Firdaria system, the most important thing, it is the beginning, > depending on the chart or the native' s > diurinal or nocturnal birth. For diurnal charts, the period begins with the > Sun, Ven, Merc, Moon, Saturn, Jup, Mars, Rahu and Ketu. > Each one has a different time range. > For nocturnal charts, the period begins with the Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, > Mars, Rahu, Ketu, Sun, Venus, Mercury. > you asked for a > > by the way: > this is from another mail, you say: > > ''Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is > actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues > , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here > to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. > In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from > you.'' > > > but with a PREVIOUS MAIL, same day > you requested: (Copy/paste) wiriting to Vinay Jee > > I request for the following proofs , for which claims were presented by a > supposed to be Learned member of the group - > > 1) Proof of the Tithis system having been known in the West before the > Indians knew it. > > 2) Proof that the Knowledge of astrology in other countries was prior to the > time, the Indians gained it. > > 3) Proof of the origin of Dasha system in the west. > > 4) Proof of having learnt the best time of conception after speculations on > the Indian mythological stories. > > Since the claims were put up on this group, I request those who have ... > > > You may be in disharmony with yourself? > > > Reading a plenty of mails, > perhaps you need Vinay Jee for his good predictions, he, can be a good > astrologer. > > > Do you need to understand the great history and knowledge with the roots of > astrology > or a good astrolger to be patched? > > You should read and try to understand more history, before the breakfast, > > > > > > > > > > > - > > " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish > > > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:51 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > >> > >> Dear , > >> > >> How can there be a Dasha in the Western system , and yet be derived from > >> the Arabic system ? It can come only from one place if it has to be > >> there, either Arabia or The west. > >> > >> Something which is not in vogue and unheard of does not deem mention of. > >> > >> will you please explain this dasha system instead of just writing the > >> names , because these names do not mean anything to us without > >> supporting explanations of what is been used here and how. > >> > >> regards/Bhaskar. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan@> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Bhaskar, > >>> There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called > >>> Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. > >>> There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer > >> is the > >>> Moon in Arabic. > >>> Just for your info. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ > >>> > >>> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM > >>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by > >> whatever > >>> > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the > >> product of > >>> > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No > >> need > >>> > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. > >>> > > >>> > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in > >>> > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which > >> is > >>> > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. > >>> > > >>> > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has > >> come > >>> > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the > >> first > >>> > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I > >>> > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he > >> mentioned > >>> > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up > >> here > >>> > " . > >>> > > >>> > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting > >> all > >>> > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres > >> from > >>> > each other, we no more remain far . > >>> > > >>> > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with > >> help > >>> > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any > >> petty > >>> > squabbles like these. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called > >> dasa. > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Marg, > >>> >> > >>> >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > >>> >> > >>> >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. > >> in > >>> > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn > >> Hindu > >>> > astrology and practice the same. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9@ > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however > >> if > >>> > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some > >> books > >>> > there > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear M, > >>> >> > >>> >> Please name some books on it. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > >>> > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe > >> especially. > >>> > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from > >> Chaldean > >>> > astrology. > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ > >>> > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Ramanji, > >>> >> > >>> >> You wrote > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> Unquote > >>> >> > >>> >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > >>> > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > >>> > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group > >> of > >>> > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis > >> mentally > >>> > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes > >> resembling > >>> > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > >>> > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed > >> divisions > >>> > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been > >> called > >>> > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of > >> Tropical > >>> > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system > >> for > >>> > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > >>> > justifiable? > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > >>> > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to > >> participate > >>> > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges > >> the > >>> > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in > >> several > >>> > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > >>> > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > >>> > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently > >> and > >>> > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > >>> > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > >>> >> > >>> >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > >>> > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. > >> Kaulji > >>> > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > >>> > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he > >> goes on > >>> > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > >>> > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura > >> (literally > >>> > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana > >> in > >>> > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I > >> also > >>> > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it > >> that > >>> > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in > >> Greek > >>> > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > >>> > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek > >> astrology. > >>> > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > >>> >> > >>> >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be > >> observed > >>> > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > >>> > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > >>> > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when > >> the > >>> > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that > >> the > >>> > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > >>> > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > >>> >> > >>> >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > >>> > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > >>> > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He > >> said > >>> > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > >>> > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > >>> >> > >>> >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > >>> > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > >>> > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > >>> > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's > >> defaming > >>> > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala > >> or > >>> > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji > >> does > >>> > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to > >> have > >>> > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > >>> > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the > >> mistake > >>> > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between > >> these > >>> > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree > >> says. > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > >>> > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad > >> Gita > >>> > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient > >> times. > >>> > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > >>> > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > >>> > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month > >> as > >>> > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > >>> > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > >>> > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > >>> > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > >>> > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > >>> > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > >>> > calendrical months be dropped. > >>> >> > >>> >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues > >> but > >>> > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by > >> mutilating > >>> > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > >>> > made your above hasty comment? > >>> >> > >>> >> Regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Raman vvrsps@ > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Kaulji: > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these > >> endeavors, > >>> > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who > >> answer > >>> > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > >>> > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain > >> timeless > >>> > truths. " > >>> >> > >>> >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote > >> in > >>> > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened > >> cannot > >>> > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of > >> the > >>> > critics of that Holy Book. > >>> >> > >>> >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > >>> > stagnation of many cultures.] > >>> >> > >>> >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > >>> > respect those who hold them. > >>> >> > >>> >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion > >> by > >>> > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and > >> they > >>> > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. > >> Practitioners > >>> > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or > >> elsewhere; > >>> > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > >>> >> > >>> >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > >>> > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > >>> > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > >>> > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > >>> >> > >>> >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and > >> can't > >>> > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > >>> > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at > >> a > >>> > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > >>> >> > >>> >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > >>> > contexts are really futile. > >>> >> > >>> >> With regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> V. V. Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> March 26, 2009 > >>> >> > >>> >> __,,___ > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 To Mr Gunes : Mr Bhaskar's mail was not directed to me. But I thank you for informing this forum about the non-Indian dashaa system , which is related to Vimshottari system as explained at http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Vimshottari+Dasha -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:23:54 AM Fw: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear Gunes, Your mail is not convincing. You are not in conformity with the line of the thread or what is been discussed. Your revelations here about other cultures is not educative and does not say anything. Disharmony is at your side because you even cannot understand the simple thing, that my mail you copy pasted was not addressed to Mr.Vinay Jha but to some other member, which you should know had you kept your mind and perception levels open to the same. It would be needless to discuss anything with you, because i do not see that you have anything worthy for discussion at your end. therefore I would prefer if you do not communicate with me. I am not here for history or geography. This is for those who cannot understand astrology. So please do not advice. Bhaskar. , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan@ ...> wrote: > > > - > " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan@ ...> > " Gunes " <gunesaksan@ ...> > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:45 PM > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > Dear Bhaskar, > > Western astrology which they use today is not derived by Western means of > > French, Italian or Scandinavian astrologers. Western from India can be > > also not so long distance. > > It is derived from Egypt, Babilonia, Harran, Arabic, Persian, and Jewish > > old wise humans and their texts. > > You ask how, all those places were great centers of commerce, so here comes > the > expansion of the knowledge. Between all those countries, please go deeply > into > Egypt and Sudan if you want to reach the most profound influence in the > mundane mythology and + the oldest. > > The vogue is not the history and you should look, and we should look to the > history. > For the Firdaria system, the most important thing, it is the beginning, > depending on the chart or the native' s > diurinal or nocturnal birth. For diurnal charts, the period begins with the > Sun, Ven, Merc, Moon, Saturn, Jup, Mars, Rahu and Ketu. > Each one has a different time range. > For nocturnal charts, the period begins with the Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, > Mars, Rahu, Ketu, Sun, Venus, Mercury. > you asked for a > > by the way: > this is from another mail, you say: > > ''Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is > actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues > , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively here > to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this mail. > In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from > you.'' > > > but with a PREVIOUS MAIL, same day > you requested: (Copy/paste) wiriting to Vinay Jee > > I request for the following proofs , for which claims were presented by a > supposed to be Learned member of the group - > > 1) Proof of the Tithis system having been known in the West before the > Indians knew it. > > 2) Proof that the Knowledge of astrology in other countries was prior to the > time, the Indians gained it. > > 3) Proof of the origin of Dasha system in the west. > > 4) Proof of having learnt the best time of conception after speculations on > the Indian mythological stories. > > Since the claims were put up on this group, I request those who have ... > > > You may be in disharmony with yourself? > > > Reading a plenty of mails, > perhaps you need Vinay Jee for his good predictions, he, can be a good > astrologer. > > > Do you need to understand the great history and knowledge with the roots of > astrology > or a good astrolger to be patched? > > You should read and try to understand more history, before the breakfast, > > > > > > > > > > > - > > " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish@ ...> > > <> > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:51 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > >> > >> Dear , > >> > >> How can there be a Dasha in the Western system , and yet be derived from > >> the Arabic system ? It can come only from one place if it has to be > >> there, either Arabia or The west. > >> > >> Something which is not in vogue and unheard of does not deem mention of. > >> > >> will you please explain this dasha system instead of just writing the > >> names , because these names do not mean anything to us without > >> supporting explanations of what is been used here and how. > >> > >> regards/Bhaskar. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> , " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan@ > > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Bhaskar, > >>> There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called > >>> Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. > >>> There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer > >> is the > >>> Moon in Arabic. > >>> Just for your info. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ > >>> > >>> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM > >>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by > >> whatever > >>> > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the > >> product of > >>> > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No > >> need > >>> > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. > >>> > > >>> > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in > >>> > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which > >> is > >>> > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. > >>> > > >>> > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has > >> come > >>> > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the > >> first > >>> > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I > >>> > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he > >> mentioned > >>> > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up > >> here > >>> > " . > >>> > > >>> > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting > >> all > >>> > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres > >> from > >>> > each other, we no more remain far . > >>> > > >>> > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with > >> help > >>> > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any > >> petty > >>> > squabbles like these. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > , " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called > >> dasa. > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Marg, > >>> >> > >>> >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > >>> >> > >>> >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. > >> in > >>> > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn > >> Hindu > >>> > astrology and practice the same. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9@ > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however > >> if > >>> > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some > >> books > >>> > there > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear M, > >>> >> > >>> >> Please name some books on it. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > >>> > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe > >> especially. > >>> > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from > >> Chaldean > >>> > astrology. > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ > >>> > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Ramanji, > >>> >> > >>> >> You wrote > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> Unquote > >>> >> > >>> >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > >>> > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > >>> > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group > >> of > >>> > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis > >> mentally > >>> > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes > >> resembling > >>> > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > >>> > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed > >> divisions > >>> > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been > >> called > >>> > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of > >> Tropical > >>> > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system > >> for > >>> > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > >>> > justifiable? > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > >>> > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to > >> participate > >>> > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges > >> the > >>> > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in > >> several > >>> > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > >>> > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > >>> > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently > >> and > >>> > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > >>> > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > >>> >> > >>> >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > >>> > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. > >> Kaulji > >>> > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > >>> > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he > >> goes on > >>> > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > >>> > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura > >> (literally > >>> > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana > >> in > >>> > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I > >> also > >>> > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it > >> that > >>> > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in > >> Greek > >>> > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > >>> > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek > >> astrology. > >>> > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > >>> >> > >>> >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be > >> observed > >>> > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > >>> > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > >>> > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when > >> the > >>> > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that > >> the > >>> > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > >>> > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > >>> >> > >>> >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > >>> > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > >>> > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He > >> said > >>> > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > >>> > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > >>> >> > >>> >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > >>> > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > >>> > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > >>> > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's > >> defaming > >>> > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala > >> or > >>> > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji > >> does > >>> > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to > >> have > >>> > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > >>> > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the > >> mistake > >>> > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between > >> these > >>> > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree > >> says. > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > >>> > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad > >> Gita > >>> > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient > >> times. > >>> > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > >>> > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > >>> > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month > >> as > >>> > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > >>> > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > >>> > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > >>> > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > >>> > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > >>> > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > >>> > calendrical months be dropped. > >>> >> > >>> >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues > >> but > >>> > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by > >> mutilating > >>> > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > >>> > made your above hasty comment? > >>> >> > >>> >> Regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Raman vvrsps@ > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Kaulji: > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these > >> endeavors, > >>> > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who > >> answer > >>> > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > >>> > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain > >> timeless > >>> > truths. " > >>> >> > >>> >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote > >> in > >>> > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened > >> cannot > >>> > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of > >> the > >>> > critics of that Holy Book. > >>> >> > >>> >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > >>> > stagnation of many cultures.] > >>> >> > >>> >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > >>> > respect those who hold them. > >>> >> > >>> >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion > >> by > >>> > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and > >> they > >>> > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. > >> Practitioners > >>> > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or > >> elsewhere; > >>> > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > >>> >> > >>> >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > >>> > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > >>> > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > >>> > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > >>> >> > >>> >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and > >> can't > >>> > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > >>> > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at > >> a > >>> > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > >>> >> > >>> >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > >>> > contexts are really futile. > >>> >> > >>> >> With regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> V. V. Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> March 26, 2009 > >>> >> > >>> >> __,,___ > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 I support. -VJ ________________________________ Marg <margie9 Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:43:55 PM Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Dear R Yes each tradition is worthy of study so why say one is better than another as each have something new to teach, thank goodness, which means the ocean of astrology is as vast as we could wish for. best wishes M - Rohiniranjan Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:54 PM Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth Marg, I think the air is getting a bit dusty on this thread :-) Addey was to my best belief not using harmonics as a 'spin' on the jyotish varga system! I think he was taken more by the mathematical/ musical basis of Harmonics! That said, it is interesting that eastern and western practitioners have tuned into, separately or jointly or sequentially (who cares?) on the basic fact that both systems in a sense utilize the underlying theme of harmonics even though the specifics may differ! Can no one see the 'beauty' and elegance in that possibility? The same thing about the Vimshottari dasha! Jyotish uses the progression of moon as the basis of dasha although it may not be described so literally! Something that KP tuned into if one stops fighting and ponders calmly on that simple observation! If reincarnation is the TRUTH and all believe in that, it is futile to fight over what is Indian and what is not, because what one is today, one may not have been in the past birth and perhaps would not be so in the next birth. Let us all remember that and at the same time, let us remember that what we currently attribute to an alien culture may in some birth become our own. The critical thing is to bring the passion and zeal to then that life-plan in our own or different culture (which will be a moot point, because in that birth time it would become our own culture!). This ALSO implies that we should respect other cultures and also be thankful for anything we received from that culture, because it all comes back home, if one thinks in a long long stretched out string of reincarnations. I realize that some religions do not believe in or have not permitted their believers to focus too much on that which many of us believe in as a reality, but then that represents a conceptual and communication gap! :-) RR , " Marg " <margie9 > wrote: > > Hi Rohini > Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. > I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. > best wishes > M > > > > - > Rohiniranjan > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Marg, > > While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! > > RR > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Dear Rohini > > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > > best wishes > > M > > > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > S > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > M > > > > > > - > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ .. com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day.. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) . com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > V. V.. Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Dear Gunes Aksan, If the dasa system u refer or any other knowledge be it chemistry, medicine, maths, science etc that came from Arab is ones that came only from VEDIC heritage looted, forced or duress by the rulers from the west asian invaders ARABS are surely much younger religion than even the Church, or Jewsa DEAR MARG, There WAS a strict ban on learned people from Vedic countries to share knowledge with not worthy ones and most of it was from THE MOUTH -VOCAL, bookks or granthas were memorised, understood and destroyed once they learnt the subject all palm leaves books were watered daily after they progressed in the subject to hasten its decay nothing was left for the KNOWLEDGE THIEVES knowledge had a humance face else Einstiens nuclear energy knowledge would not have been abused in the 2 dastardly Nuke bombs in Japan. Atharna veda has many such gadgets, warfare items in it but its use is coded and sincere and ones who see the structure of the message pattern only can dicipher it else is like a good classical poetry for the non gratia each work has man inner layers and one who sought some wisdom from a angle were guided thru it. knowledge is a sacred and humane one but over the years its teachers were far and few and students became lesser I remember a Pundit in Pune giving a add he was in his 80's asking for willing students to learn and he was prepared to share all he knew but wanted students a few years ago but from whatever I knew later no one really turned up so is the case with Veda Patashalas all over india thin attendence. and no way of living bu it no state or corporate funding in it so has to wither so far is living on donations by some concerned individuals like u and me there r different branches of wisdom in all civilisations some close to us or even better than us in few areas but surely not so fast and and profund in its depth as Vedic knowledge is. and MARG is partly right when he said vEDIC knowledge are based on revelations. than observations s fotrvy channel to the supreme being who imparted the knowledge toa few rishis. Prashant On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 5:56 AM, Gunes Aksan <gunesaksan wrote: > > - > " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan <gunesaksan%40tnn.net>> > " Gunes " <gunesaksan <gunesaksan%40tnn.net>> > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:45 PM > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Dear Bhaskar, > > Western astrology which they use today is not derived by Western means of > > > French, Italian or Scandinavian astrologers. Western from India can be > > also not so long distance. > > It is derived from Egypt, Babilonia, Harran, Arabic, Persian, and Jewish > > old wise humans and their texts. > > You ask how, all those places were great centers of commerce, so here comes > > the > expansion of the knowledge. Between all those countries, please go deeply > into > Egypt and Sudan if you want to reach the most profound influence in the > mundane mythology and + the oldest. > > The vogue is not the history and you should look, and we should look to the > > history. > For the Firdaria system, the most important thing, it is the beginning, > depending on the chart or the native' s > diurinal or nocturnal birth. For diurnal charts, the period begins with the > > Sun, Ven, Merc, Moon, Saturn, Jup, Mars, Rahu and Ketu. > Each one has a different time range. > For nocturnal charts, the period begins with the Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, > Mars, Rahu, Ketu, Sun, Venus, Mercury. > you asked for a > > by the way: > this is from another mail, you say: > > ''Nothing is going to be achieved by proving the origin to anybody. This is > > actually a waste of time. Instead of taking up easy and unverifiable issues > > , why not pick up some astrological principles and use them effectively > here > to show how you can predict so wonderfully as you have claimed in this > mail. > In this way the thread can become interesting and we all can learn from > you.'' > > but with a PREVIOUS MAIL, same day > you requested: (Copy/paste) wiriting to Vinay Jee > > I request for the following proofs , for which claims were presented by a > supposed to be Learned member of the group - > > 1) Proof of the Tithis system having been known in the West before the > Indians knew it. > > 2) Proof that the Knowledge of astrology in other countries was prior to > the > time, the Indians gained it. > > 3) Proof of the origin of Dasha system in the west. > > 4) Proof of having learnt the best time of conception after speculations on > > the Indian mythological stories. > > Since the claims were put up on this group, I request those who have ... > > You may be in disharmony with yourself? > > Reading a plenty of mails, > perhaps you need Vinay Jee for his good predictions, he, can be a good > astrologer. > > Do you need to understand the great history and knowledge with the roots of > > astrology > or a good astrolger to be patched? > > You should read and try to understand more history, before the breakfast, > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish<bhaskar_jyotish%40.co.in> > > > > < <%40>> > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:51 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > >> > >> Dear , > >> > >> How can there be a Dasha in the Western system , and yet be derived from > >> the Arabic system ? It can come only from one place if it has to be > >> there, either Arabia or The west. > >> > >> Something which is not in vogue and unheard of does not deem mention of. > >> > >> will you please explain this dasha system instead of just writing the > >> names , because these names do not mean anything to us without > >> supporting explanations of what is been used here and how. > >> > >> regards/Bhaskar. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> <%40>, > " Gunes Aksan " <gunesaksan > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear Bhaskar, > >>> There is a 'dasha' system in the Western old tradition, it is called > >>> Firdaria and is derived from Persia, from a Persian name, El Firdar. > >>> There is also Lunar mansions and it is called Menazil el Kamer, Kamer > >> is the > >>> Moon in Arabic. > >>> Just for your info. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - > >>> " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish > >>> <%40> > >>> Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:26 PM > >>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > There is no dasa system in the West in any whichever way, by > >> whatever > >>> > name one may call it. Neither Tithi nor Lunar mansions is the > >> product of > >>> > the west, as claimed few days ago, which proof is yet to arrive. No > >> need > >>> > to spend any pains, as we know it is the product of India. > >>> > > >>> > But all the same, east or west, Claims must not be put up anytime in > >>> > such matters, especially when speaking to Indian astrologers, which > >> is > >>> > the Original Home for astrology, as one must otherwise prove it. > >>> > > >>> > We have to rise up and shed away the childish claims, that this has > >> come > >>> > from my country or yours. Ultimately when watched from space the > >> first > >>> > astronaut from India ( whats his name ? Why cant I remember ?) , I > >>> > remember when I was younger I heard his speech from space, he > >> mentioned > >>> > ( To Indira Gandhi ?)his first words " I see no boundaries from up > >> here > >>> > " . > >>> > > >>> > With internet Fibre going underneath the Ocean water and connecting > >> all > >>> > the countries within seconds, from tens of thousands of kilometeres > >> from > >>> > each other, we no more remain far . > >>> > > >>> > Let us make ourselves more sharper in our skills in astrology, with > >> help > >>> > of each others knowledge and experience, rather than entering any > >> petty > >>> > squabbles like these. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > <%40>, > " Marg " margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> I am not mistaken. There is a dasa system, but it is not called > >> dasa. > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> <%40> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009 11:22 PM > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Marg, > >>> >> > >>> >> Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > >>> >> > >>> >> You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. > >> in > >>> > western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn > >> Hindu > >>> > astrology and practice the same. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg margie9@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9@ > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> <%40> > >>> >> Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however > >> if > >>> > you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some > >> books > >>> > there > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear M, > >>> >> > >>> >> Please name some books on it. > >>> >> > >>> >> Best wishes, > >>> >> > >>> >> S > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Marg margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Sunil > >>> >> > >>> >> In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a > >>> > tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe > >> especially. > >>> > Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from > >> Chaldean > >>> > astrology. > >>> >> > >>> >> best wishes > >>> >> > >>> >> M > >>> >> > >>> >> - > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ > >>> > . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Ramanji, > >>> >> > >>> >> You wrote > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> Unquote > >>> >> > >>> >> When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now > >>> > conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that > >>> > dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group > >> of > >>> > nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis > >> mentally > >>> > drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes > >> resembling > >>> > some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in > >>> > Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed > >> divisions > >>> > but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been > >> called > >>> > so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of > >> Tropical > >>> > system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system > >> for > >>> > using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it > >>> > justifiable? > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among > >>> > several categories of professionals are not to be invited to > >> participate > >>> > in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges > >> the > >>> > existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in > >> several > >>> > very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to > >>> > participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not > >>> > there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently > >> and > >>> > selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by > >>> > Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > >>> >> > >>> >> Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows > >>> > astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. > >> Kaulji > >>> > twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were > >>> > respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he > >> goes on > >>> > to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. > >>> > Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura > >> (literally > >>> > the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana > >> in > >>> > Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I > >> also > >>> > asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it > >> that > >>> > the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in > >> Greek > >>> > / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and > >>> > other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek > >> astrology. > >>> > To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > >>> >> > >>> >> Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be > >> observed > >>> > on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural > >>> > reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the > >>> > Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when > >> the > >>> > Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that > >> the > >>> > Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no > >>> > linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > >>> >> > >>> >> He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not > >>> > know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are > >>> > also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He > >> said > >>> > rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my > >>> > pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > >>> >> > >>> >> Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. > >>> > Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) > >>> > would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. > >>> > Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's > >> defaming > >>> > of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala > >> or > >>> > Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji > >> does > >>> > not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to > >> have > >>> > read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include > >>> > Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the > >> mistake > >>> > of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between > >> these > >>> > two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree > >> says. > >>> >> > >>> >> Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months > >>> > suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad > >> Gita > >>> > and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient > >> times. > >>> > The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in > >>> > Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the > >>> > seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month > >> as > >>> > this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal > >>> > months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin > >>> > things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and > >>> > certain other things will have to be observed according to the > >>> > calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji > >>> > wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient > >>> > calendrical months be dropped. > >>> >> > >>> >> If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues > >> but > >>> > not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by > >> mutilating > >>> > facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you > >>> > made your above hasty comment? > >>> >> > >>> >> Regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > >>> >> > >>> >> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman vvrsps@ wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >> Raman vvrsps@ > >>> >> > >>> >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > >>> >> > >>> >> jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > >>> >> > >>> >> Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > >>> >> > >>> >> Dear Kaulji: > >>> >> > >>> >> I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed > >> approach > >>> > to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant > >> efforts > >>> > through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries > >> of > >>> > (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > >>> >> > >>> >> While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these > >> endeavors, > >>> > it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who > >> answer > >>> > objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not > >>> > undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain > >> timeless > >>> > truths. " > >>> >> > >>> >> Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote > >> in > >>> > the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened > >> cannot > >>> > understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of > >> the > >>> > critics of that Holy Book. > >>> >> > >>> >> [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and > >>> > stagnation of many cultures.] > >>> >> > >>> >> There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I > >>> > respect those who hold them. > >>> >> > >>> >> Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion > >> by > >>> > some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and > >> they > >>> > seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. > >> Practitioners > >>> > generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or > >> elsewhere; > >>> > and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > >>> >> > >>> >> In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with > >>> > people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are > >>> > sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which > >>> > ordinary mortals are not privy to. > >>> >> > >>> >> Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and > >> can't > >>> > understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with > >>> > whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at > >> a > >>> > very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > >>> >> > >>> >> But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such > >>> > contexts are really futile. > >>> >> > >>> >> With regards, > >>> >> > >>> >> V. V. Raman > >>> >> > >>> >> March 26, 2009 > >>> >> > >>> >> __,,___ > >>> >> > >>> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 And why stop at Astrology, or even just divination -- Marg? Just a thought ... RR , " Marg " <margie9 wrote: > > Dear R > Yes each tradition is worthy of study so why say one is better than another as each have something new to teach, thank goodness, which means the ocean of astrology is as vast as we could wish for. > best wishes > M > - > Rohiniranjan > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:54 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > Marg, > > I think the air is getting a bit dusty on this thread :-) > Addey was to my best belief not using harmonics as a 'spin' on the jyotish varga system! I think he was taken more by the mathematical/musical basis of Harmonics! That said, it is interesting that eastern and western practitioners have tuned into, separately or jointly or sequentially (who cares?) on the basic fact that both systems in a sense utilize the underlying theme of harmonics even though the specifics may differ! Can no one see the 'beauty' and elegance in that possibility? > > The same thing about the Vimshottari dasha! Jyotish uses the progression of moon as the basis of dasha although it may not be described so literally! Something that KP tuned into if one stops fighting and ponders calmly on that simple observation! > > If reincarnation is the TRUTH and all believe in that, it is futile to fight over what is Indian and what is not, because what one is today, one may not have been in the past birth and perhaps would not be so in the next birth. Let us all remember that and at the same time, let us remember that what we currently attribute to an alien culture may in some birth become our own. The critical thing is to bring the passion and zeal to then that life-plan in our own or different culture (which will be a moot point, because in that birth time it would become our own culture!). This ALSO implies that we should respect other cultures and also be thankful for anything we received from that culture, because it all comes back home, if one thinks in a long long stretched out string of reincarnations. > > I realize that some religions do not believe in or have not permitted their believers to focus too much on that which many of us believe in as a reality, but then that represents a conceptual and communication gap! :-) > > RR > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > Hi Rohini > > Thanks for telling me about Leo's interest in the divisional system, I haven't come across that in any of the few works of his I have read. > > I'm not sure of whether Addey did defer to the Indian system or not, though he was an academic researcher and would have had to declare his sources in his final works. The book I have says that Addey was keen on Pythagorean harmonics and that he wanted to promote linear astrology so that the 'sine waveforms' could more easily be set up and used in research. > > best wishes > > M > > > > > > > > - > > Rohiniranjan > > > > Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:04 AM > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > While Addey may have developed the 'harmonic' concept more fully, Alan Leo who was around before Addey was born, had been using divisions before that. I recall reading this mentioned in one of Raman's articles or writings and also going way way back I have the recollection that Alan Leo in this " Esoteric Astrology " touched upon the concept. I do not clearly recall if he attributed it to the Indian system or not. Not that it matters! > > > > RR > > > > , " Marg " <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rohini > > > There are many systems of progressions in western astrology ie primary, secondary and tertiary progression. > > > Ít was John Addey who first introduced the 'harmonics'or divisional charts system into western astrology, though few have practised it. > > > However, as you say, even Ptolemy refers to subdivisions of the ecliptic path and signs which may be what prompted Addey to research subdivisions. > > > Again I don't use them but I do respect all traditions of astrology and therefore make it a priority to find out about all systems to see if there is any value or use in them, rather than dismiss them out of hand without trying them first; otherwise I become like those who say astrology/jyotish is rubbish, when in fact they have never studied it themselves. > > > best wishes > > > M > > > > > > - > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:08 AM > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil jee, > > > > > > The western/tropical system of astrology uses a system of progressing the natal positions. They call it 'a degree a year progression' method. They do not CALL it dasha! > > > > > > Here is the interesting thing (and those who have heard this from me many many times earlier, please hold your tongue and frustration ;-)) > > > > > > This degree a year progression actually is what we use in vimshottari dasha. ONLY we call it progression of natal moon by 120 degrees in 120 years! NOT a degree a year, although someone may wish to 'average' it and come up with a degree a year. I am not saying that the followers of western astrology as laid out by Ptolemy did! > > > > > > In vimshottari (120 degree in 120 years progression) though, there are different rates of progression. The natal MOON moves through segments at different rates as it moves through the segments attributed to ketu, surya, chandra, bhaum, rahu, brihaspati, shani, budh, shukra at inequal rates with shani and rahu and budha and brihaspati slowing down janma chandra while krura, surya, ketu and chandra himself allowing faster passage if one wants to think of it in that way. > > > > > > Tropicalists have also utilized in their framework of 'harmonics' possibly imported by Alan Leo (if BV Raman's writings be followed) into western astrology and I believe they still use the 'DWADs' or Dwadashamshas and novile/nonile harmonics and so on. > > > > > > I have no idea how they actually use these in their system though! > > > > > > Rohiniranjan > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Marg, > > > > > > > > Is the Marg your first name or is it an assumed name? > > > > > > > > You are under wrong impression. There is no mention of Dasha etc. in western astrology. However it is open to the westerners to learn Hindu astrology and practice the same. > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 3/29/09, Marg <margie9@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9@> > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > Sunday, March 29, 2009, 1:35 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't use these systems so have no books on the subject, however if you search for the Kepler school of astrology you will find some books there > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009 10:08 PM > > > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear M, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please name some books on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marg <margie9 (AT) talktalk (DOT) net> > > > > > > > > Re: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, March 27, 2009, 1:51 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In fact there is a dasa system in the western system, as well as a tithi system, both are used extensively in mainland Europe especially. Both of these systems in the tropical school are derived from Chaldean astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology ; @ . com ; IndiaArchaeology@ gropups. com ; Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009 11:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ramanji, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unquote > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When it suits him Kaulji quotes the Monier Williams but he has now conveniently not seen the meaning of the word " Rashi " in that dictionary. Rashi means a group. In Jyotish Shastra it means a group of nakshatras. To make it easy to identify the ancient jyotishis mentally drew lines joining the nakshatras and arrived a some shapes resembling some known forms and accordingly these rashis were named. This is in Sidereal system. In the Tropical system there are 12 assumed divisions but etymologically these cannot be called rashi and has not been called so in the ancient past. Instead of castigating the adherents of Tropical system for using the word rashi he is attacking the Sidereal system for using rashi from the ancient times of Bhagavat purana.. Is it justifiable? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu told that the astrologers, temple priests and physicians among several categories of professionals are not to be invited to participate in the Devakaryas and Pitrikaryas. This shows that Manu acknowledges the existence of astrology at his time also that people engaged in several very essential and respectable professions are not supposed to participate in these ceremonies. Kaulji says that astrology was not there in India in the ancient past and also he (Kaulji) conveniently and selectively states that the practice of astrology is not allowed by Manu. What type of scholarship is this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Varahamihira said that even a Yavana is respected if he knows astrology then what to speak of a Brahmin who knows astrology. Kaulji twisted the meaning of that Sanskrit verse to say that Yavanas were respected by the brahmins as the Yavanas knew astrology. Then he goes on to say that the Indians learnt astrology from the Yavanas or Greeks. Firstly he does not know that inhabitants of Pragjyotishpura (literally the earliest place of Jyotisha in the world) were also called Yavana in Mahabharata, when Narakasura's son Bhagadatta led the Yavanas. I also asked him if the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks why is it that the Dahsa, Antardasha and Pratyantardasha systems are not there in Greek / Western astrology. In fact another scholar asked him why Tithi and other such lunar astrolgical aspects are not there in Greek astrology. To these he (Kaulji) has no answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kaulji has been insisting that the Makar Sankranti is to be observed on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single scriptural reference as to when was it celebrated in the ancient past on the Uttarayana day. Suryasiddhanta did say that Uttarayana occurred when the Sun was in Makar rashi and as a scientist you may be knowing that the Uttaraya occurred in Makar rashi only for about 2200 years and it no linger occurs in the Makar rashi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He says that the grahas are not mentioned in the Vedas. Does he not know that in Jyotish the Sun, the Moon, the Jupiter and the Rahu are also called grahas and these are very much there in the Vedas. He said rashi is not there in veda. He continues this tirade inspite of my pointing out that Vrishabha rashi is there in the Veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without knowing the facts he calls Varahamihira a Charlatan. Fortunately for him Varahamihira is long dead otherwise he (Kaulji) would have been hauled up in a court to prove what he says. Unfortunately I am the lone Indian protesting against Kaulji's defaming of Varahamihira. I told him that Varahamihira spoke of Sakendra kala or Sakanripa kala whereas Brahmagupta spoke about Sakantakala. Kaulji does not know that these two kalas can be different though he claims to have read all important astrological treatises, which naturally include Varahamihira' s and Brahmagupta' s works. David Pingree made the mistake of dating Varahamihira as he did not know the difference between these two kalas. But now why Kaulji go on blindly repeating what Pingree says. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Manu mentioned Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra as the months suitable for war. Lord Krishna mentioned Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita and these are the calendrical months followed from the ancient times. The seasonal months like Madhu and Madhava are also mentioned in Taittiriya Brahmana and these seasonal months are to express the seasons. For example the Tapasya is best perfomed in the Tapah month as this month is cooler and more suitable for tapashya.. These seasonal months go on moving due to the precession of the earth. So ceratin things will have to be observed according to the seasonal months and certain other things will have to be observed according to the calendical moths. This flexibility has always been there. But Kaulji wants to derail this system by adamantly asking that the ancient calendrical months be dropped. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there is any grey area that may be sorted out through dialogues but not in the way Kaulji blindly and unjustifiably demands by mutilating facts. In the light of the above will you kindly let us know why you made your above hasty comment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Raman <vvrsps@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raman <vvrsps@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Secrets of the earth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, waves-vedic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thursday, March 26, 2009, 7:06 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaulji: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have always admired your no-nonsense scholarly and informed approach to questions pertaining to <Vedic> astrology, and your valiant efforts through balanced and rationally derived results to replace centuries of (what I regard as) accumumulated errors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I wish you (and our culture) every success in these endeavors, it is difficult, not to say frustrating, to argue with those who answer objections to non-rational positions by saying that you " have not undergone the discipline (sadhana) required to reveal certain timeless truths. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Recently Tariq Ramadan, a highly respected European Muslim, wrote in the New York Times, that those who are not spiritually awakened cannot understand the truths of the Qur'an, and that shut up a good many of the critics of that Holy Book. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [in my own view this is also the secret of the stability and stagnation of many cultures.] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There may be great metaphysical truths in such positions, and I respect those who hold them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, the majority of the people simply quote this assertion by some wise man because it conveniently evades difficult issues, and they seldom speak from having practiced the sadhana themselves. Practitioners generally don't engage in debates, whether on the internet or elsewhere; and when they do, they rarely throw new light on old doctrines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In any event, for my part, I choose not to engage in debates with people who offer this as a counter argument, because I know they are sincere and are honestly convinced they possess higher truths which ordinary mortals are not privy to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I don't mind being to be told that I simply don't and can't understand because I am at a lower spiritual level than the one with whom I am engaged in a conversation. I fully recognize that I am at a very low level in the ladder of spiritual evolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also feel that aside from belittling, discussions in such contexts are really futile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > V. V. Raman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > March 26, 2009 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __,,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Dear Bhaskar, This is the last mail that I am writing to you, I do not need any kind of responses from you. You requested for some proofs, i did not write some proofs yet. There are some good proofs but you may be sooo busy, in fact, we are not busy to read all the letters you wrote, we have time and we have an ''obligation'' to read, as you think and we are accused to unread? I do not have time to read all your letters. You ask for one thread and you shut down shortly. It seems that you have already decided, before the beginning, to reject everything. Your decision, is only yours, so please keep it. May God helps you. Why not doing something for yourself? *only for you* Advices, you are taking money with advices, don' t you? 1) Shut down your computer, 2) Say to Mum and Daddy that you will return soon, oh no, really and really I will come back soon, 3) Go to the nearest park 4) Sniff the flowers and look to the big trees. Sniff them, you will be ok. Perhaps, on the way back home, you may understand that astrology is not yours. You may rejoice. It can be. Astrology is for all of us, for all of us humans. Please take care of yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.