The problem of using Astronomy in dating the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata

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The problem of using Astronomy in dating the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata

 

From Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia

 

 

 

 

Often times, scholars use the astronomical signs mentioned in our ancient texts to date those texts. The problem with this is that they do not provide definitive dates in themselves, but provide dates with repetitious cycles unless additional information is taken into account.

 

An introduction to astronomy

Equinox

There are two equinoxes during the calender year: the spring equinox and the vernal equinox and are days when the light of the Sun will spend a nearly equal amount of time above and below the horizon at every location on Earth and night and day will be of the same length.

An equinox in astronomy is that moment in time (not a whole day) when the center of the Sun can be observed to be directly above the Earth's equator, occurring around March 20 and September 23 each year. The one in March 20 is considered the spring equinox and the September equinox is the vernal equinox.

Procession of the Equinox

The precession of the equinoxes refers to the precession of Earth's axis of rotation with respect to inertial space. The positions of the equinoxes move westward along the ecliptic compared to the fixed stars on the celestial sphere. Currently, this annual motion is about 50.3 seconds of arc per year or 1 degree every 71.6 years. The process is slow, but cumulative. A complete precession cycle covers a period of approximately 25,765 years, during which time the equinox regresses over a full 360°.

In terms of people from earth observing the stars, it looks like the constellations of the zodiac move counter-cyclical to the earth's motion around the sun.

This journey over 25,765 years covers the 12 constellations of the sky with the sun rising on the vernal equinox in the same zodiac for approximately 2,150 years in each constellation.

Since there is also a precession of the earth's axis, the equinox dates keep changing every year, and when seen from a stellar background the constellation in which the sun rises on the vernal equinox also keeps changing over a period of time.

Dating based on the precession of the Equinox

During the Vedic age, the vernal equinox is considered to have occurred in the month of Margashira (named after a star lambda orionis in the constellation of Orion). Today, the sun rises in the background of Meena Rashi (or Pisces) as compared to Margasira (or when Orion was in Gemini).

This means that the zodiac for when the run rose

In our times today, the sun rises in the background of Pisces (Meena Rashi) on the vernal equinox (we will transition to Aquarius from Pisces in the year 2,150 AD) . Whereas in the vedic period it used to rise in the background of Gemini (Margasira/Orion is in Gemini).

There are 4 constellations (Gemini, Taurus, Aries, and Pisces) that the sun has traveled through between the time of the Vedas and today. Multiplying 4 by 2,150 gives us 8,600 years and multiplying by 3 by 2,150 gives us 6,450 years. Thus the date range within which the Vedic civilization existed is between 8,600 and 6,450 years ago or 6600 BCE to 5540 BCE. However, this by itself is not definitive.

As mentioned earlier, a single complete processional cycle takes 25,765 years; so the dates could be multiples of 25,675 years older than these dates. Taking this into account, the vedic age was

(N x 25,675)+8600 to (N x 25,675)+6,450 years ago where N >= 0.

Dating our texts

Luckily, the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc contain many description of the skys with locations of the stars as well as descriptions of which Manavatar, yuga, etc. they were in. All of these have to be taken into account to get to a date. Even then, some of the dates seem to go back to a time which contradict our understanding of the timelines of human evolution and human expansion out-of-Africa.

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dear Anantha krishnan ji

 

sure ,thanks for ur mail

 

I also noted it but my main idea was to convey the meaning conveyed by the messge .My opinion is

Veda is not originated in BC 4500 but much much prior to it ,we r using only some astronomical reference available in it

 

The indus -saraswathi ppl as every one can see it ,the culture slowly fade out ,i dont think a big war or natural calmity happened as there is no trace of heap of human bodies or scattered human bodies or even mutilated human bodies ,or never u find any bodies inside any housing complex so that some floodings or earth quack etc might b the cause .I think it was a slow process and the same ppl got imerged with other ppl of indian sub cultures and the civilisation still continuing as u can see siva worship still there and figurines and dancing girls etc uses same cosume still u can see in india and its interiors or even our some castes uses exactly similar costumes which those female dancers has which is un earthed in the old saraswathi plain and still we also blv the sarawathi as goddess of truth and true Knowledge too ( dont u think there is some connection with this word and old civilisation )

 

only diffrnce i find is in vedic period there is oral tradition ( sruthi and smriti ) and our caste system also helped to preserve some part of it ( actualy i feel tho our caste system has its disadvatages and every body blaimed it for destabilising the society but it helped in preserving various Knowledge branches practised by diffrnt castes ) where as in Indus saraswathi period there is writing tradition ,so writing tradition goes into darkness once u lost the alphabets reading capability and it is what happened with earlier civilisation i blv .Still all archeologists trying hard to decifer the indus scripts .

 

Even some scholars postulates that oral tradition means no knowledge abt writing skils which i doubt it ,because the advance ment of science and mathematics in vedic period itself is a proof that some writing system they miight hav used ,but in palm leavs or cloths ,so it gets disintegrates with time easily .

 

rgrds sunil nair

, Anantha Krishnan <anantha_krishnan_98 wrote:

Dear Sunil Ji:The author of the article confuses couple of things with inconsistencies in terminology.1. He (she) calls September equinox as vernal equinox. I think it is spring equinox.2.Mixes up constellations with rasis. He is talking about rasis but writing it as constellations.2. He takes star Margashira as the entire rasi Gemini.Recalculating vedic civilization assuming that happened when venal equinox was in the end of Margashira at 6 deg 40secsGemini- 6.66x 71.6.. 477 years

Taurus……………….2150years

Aries……………….. 2150 years

Pisces----------------- 2150 years

Total……………….6927 years

Subtracting…………2435 (vernal equinox 0deg Pi in the year 2435), we can say vedic civilization existed around4500B.C.

How does this compare with Indus valley civilization which scholars say could have flourished from 5000B.C to 1500B.C.

Now who were these people? That is another topic for another day.

Regards

Anantha Krishnan> --- On Thu, 5/7/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala wrote:> > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala The problem of using Astronomy in dating the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata> > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 11:17 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem of using Astronomy in dating the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata> > From Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia> > > > > Often times, scholars use the astronomical signs mentioned in our ancient texts to date those texts. The problem with this is that they do not provide definitive dates in themselves, but provide dates with repetitious cycles unless additional information is taken into account.> > An introduction to astronomy> Equinox> There are two equinoxes during the calender year: the spring equinox and the vernal equinox and are days when the light of the Sun will spend a nearly equal amount of time above and below the horizon at every location on Earth and night and day will be of the same length. > An equinox in astronomy is that moment in time (not a whole day) when the center of the Sun can be observed to be directly above the Earth's equator, occurring around March 20 and September 23 each year. The one in March 20 is considered the spring equinox and the September equinox is the vernal equinox. > Procession of the Equinox> The precession of the equinoxes refers to the precession of Earth's axis of rotation with respect to inertial space. The positions of the equinoxes move westward along the ecliptic compared to the fixed stars on the celestial sphere. Currently, this annual motion is about 50.3 seconds of arc per year or 1 degree every 71.6 years. The process is slow, but cumulative. A complete precession cycle covers a period of approximately 25,765 years, during which time the equinox regresses over a full 360°. > In terms of people from earth observing the stars, it looks like the constellations of the zodiac move counter-cyclical to the earth's motion around the sun. > This journey over 25,765 years covers the 12 constellations of the sky with the sun rising on the vernal equinox in the same zodiac for approximately 2,150 years in each constellation. > Since there is also a precession of the earth's axis, the equinox dates keep changing every year, and when seen from a stellar background the constellation in which the sun rises on the vernal equinox also keeps changing over a period of time. > Dating based on the precession of the Equinox> During the Vedic age, the vernal equinox is considered to have occurred in the month of Margashira (named after a star lambda orionis in the constellation of Orion). Today, the sun rises in the background of Meena Rashi (or Pisces) as compared to Margasira (or when Orion was in Gemini). > This means that the zodiac for when the run rose > In our times today, the sun rises in the background of Pisces (Meena Rashi) on the vernal equinox (we will transition to Aquarius from Pisces in the year 2,150 AD) . Whereas in the vedic period it used to rise in the background of Gemini (Margasira/Orion is in Gemini). > There are 4 constellations (Gemini, Taurus, Aries, and Pisces) that the sun has traveled through between the time of the Vedas and today. Multiplying 4 by 2,150 gives us 8,600 years and multiplying by 3 by 2,150 gives us 6,450 years. Thus the date range within which the Vedic civilization existed is between 8,600 and 6,450 years ago or 6600 BCE to 5540 BCE. However, this by itself is not definitive. > As mentioned earlier, a single complete processional cycle takes 25,765 years; so the dates could be multiples of 25,675 years older than these dates. Taking this into account, the vedic age was > (N x 25,675)+8600 to (N x 25,675)+6,450 years ago where N >= 0. > Dating our texts> Luckily, the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc contain many description of the skys with locations of the stars as well as descriptions of which Manavatar, yuga, etc. they were in. All of these have to be taken into account to get to a date. Even then, some of the dates seem to go back to a time which contradict our understanding of the timelines of human evolution and human expansion out-of-Africa.>

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dear Anantha krishnan ji

yes ,i reposted it in my reply the turnicated version

 

thanks sunil nair

, Anantha Krishnan <anantha_krishnan_98 wrote:>> Dear SunilJi:> My initial response was truncated in the middle. The following is the entire response.> Tx,A.K.> > Dear Sunil Ji:> > The author of the article confuses couple of things with inconsistencies in> terminology.> > 1. He (she) calls September equinox as vernal> equinox. I think it is spring equinox.> > 2.Mixes up constellations with rasis. He is talking about rasis but writing it> as constellations.> > 2. He takes star Margashira as the entire rasi Gemini.> > > > Recalculating vedic civilization assuming that happened when venal equinox was> in the end of Margashira at 6 deg 40secs> > Gemini- 6.66x 71.6.. 477 years> > Taurus……………….2150years> > Aries……………….. 2150 years> > Pisces----------------- 2150 years> > Total……………….6927 years> > Subtracting…………2435 (vernal equinox 0deg Pi in the year> 2435), we can say vedic civilization existed around4500B.C.> > How does this compare with Indus > valley civilization which scholars say could have flourished from 5000B.C to> 1500B.C.> > Now who were these people? That is another topic for another> day.> > Regards> > Anantha Krishnan> > > > --- On Thu, 5/7/09, sunil nair astro_tellerkerala wrote:> > sunil nair astro_tellerkerala The problem of using Astronomy in dating the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata> > Thursday, May 7, 2009, 11:17 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > The problem of using Astronomy in dating the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata> > From Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia> >  > > > Often times, scholars use the astronomical signs mentioned in our ancient texts to date those texts. The problem with this is that they do not provide definitive dates in themselves, but provide dates with repetitious cycles unless additional information is taken into account.>  > An introduction to astronomy> Equinox> There are two equinoxes during the calender year: the spring equinox and the vernal equinox and are days when the light of the Sun will spend a nearly equal amount of time above and below the horizon at every location on Earth and night and day will be of the same length. > An equinox in astronomy is that moment in time (not a whole day) when the center of the Sun can be observed to be directly above the Earth's equator, occurring around March 20 and September 23 each year. The one in March 20 is considered the spring equinox and the September equinox is the vernal equinox. > Procession of the Equinox> The precession of the equinoxes refers to the precession of Earth's axis of rotation with respect to inertial space. The positions of the equinoxes move westward along the ecliptic compared to the fixed stars on the celestial sphere. Currently, this annual motion is about 50.3 seconds of arc per year or 1 degree every 71.6 years. The process is slow, but cumulative. A complete precession cycle covers a period of approximately 25,765 years, during which time the equinox regresses over a full 360°. > In terms of people from earth observing the stars, it looks like the constellations of the zodiac move counter-cyclical to the earth's motion around the sun. > This journey over 25,765 years covers the 12 constellations of the sky with the sun rising on the vernal equinox in the same zodiac for approximately 2,150 years in each constellation. > Since there is also a precession of the earth's axis, the equinox dates keep changing every year, and when seen from a stellar background the constellation in which the sun rises on the vernal equinox also keeps changing over a period of time. > Dating based on the precession of the Equinox> During the Vedic age, the vernal equinox is considered to have occurred in the month of Margashira (named after a star lambda orionis in the constellation of Orion). Today, the sun rises in the background of Meena Rashi (or Pisces) as compared to Margasira (or when Orion was in Gemini). > This means that the zodiac for when the run rose > In our times today, the sun rises in the background of Pisces (Meena Rashi) on the vernal equinox (we will transition to Aquarius from Pisces in the year 2,150 AD) . Whereas in the vedic period it used to rise in the background of Gemini (Margasira/Orion is in Gemini). > There are 4 constellations (Gemini, Taurus, Aries, and Pisces) that the sun has traveled through between the time of the Vedas and today. Multiplying 4 by 2,150 gives us 8,600 years and multiplying by 3 by 2,150 gives us 6,450 years. Thus the date range within which the Vedic civilization existed is between 8,600 and 6,450 years ago or 6600 BCE to 5540 BCE. However, this by itself is not definitive. > As mentioned earlier, a single complete processional cycle takes 25,765 years; so the dates could be multiples of 25,675 years older than these dates. Taking this into account, the vedic age was > (N x 25,675)+8600 to (N x 25,675)+6,450 years ago where N >= 0. > Dating our texts> Luckily, the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, etc contain many description of the skys with locations of the stars as well as descriptions of which Manavatar, yuga, etc. they were in. All of these have to be taken into account to get to a date. Even then, some of the dates seem to go back to a time which contradict our understanding of the timelines of human evolution and human expansion out-of-Africa.>