Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Suicide: Astrological Investigation Dr. S. C. Kursija Death is as natural as life. According to the Bhagavad-Gita, "For that which is born must die, and that which is dead must be born again" (10: 26-27). The end of life is accepted as a law of nature. However, the suicide of an apparently sane person is so unnatural that it evokes anguish and perplexity. Though still aberrant, suicide is perhaps more explicable when carried out for a seemingly logical reason. The world is replete with dramatic examples of suicide victims who have died to save themselves from disgrace or oppression. For instance, at the end of World War II, German dictator Adolf Hitler committed suicide by a self-inflicted gunshot and cyanide poisoning. The Rajput Queen Padmavati chose voluntary death to avoid dishonor at the hands of the Mughal ruler Allaudin. Bangladeshi women leap to their deaths to avoid becoming prey to the violent and lustful Pakistani soldiers who tyrannize them. In Singapore, trafficked Indonesian maids commonly jump out of high-rise apartments to avoid a degrading life of enslavement. As in the above examples, one might be able to make some small sense out of suicide when it is performed to save one from a life of torture and humiliation. Yet, it is difficult to fathom that contemporary students take their own lives due to stress over examinations or social conflicts. Suicide is a voluntary and intentional act that arises from inner or outer frustration, fear, or humiliation. The high rate of suicide in modern Western culture reflects the deviance of a materialistic society. As Western materialism continues to inform global culture, so do the number of senseless suicides grow in India, as well. Yet, the ancient seers of India revealed the universal law of karma that would, if followed, prevent such meaningless acts. Life is sacred and purposeful and has a natural course. What is the mysterious karma behind such an aberrant act as suicide? Such karma is explained by the language of astrology. No action of humankind is outside the scope of this vast science, including the manner of one's death. Whether through suicide, accident, murder, or any other way, death can be judged from one's horoscope. Astrological Houses Responsible for Suicide: The eighth house from the lagna of the horoscope of the native shows the mode of death. The eighth from the eighth–that is, the third from the lagna—signifies the self and its intention and valor. One who attempts suicide needs the courage and intention to end his life. Therefore, the third house is the house of suicide. The lagna similarly reveals the self and its intentions. When the lords of the first and third houses are well disposed—exalted; posited in a kendra, trine, own or friend's house; aspected by benefic planets and without the influence or hemming of malefic planets—the native has the courage to bravely solve his problems and face all situations. When there are afflictions to the lords of the first and third houses, and/or to the houses themselves, and/or to the karakas of these houses, the native does not have the courage to face his difficulties. He may become so mentally disturbed that he spontaneously decides to end his life. Such an individual is not mentally weak or a coward, but an impulsive force in the moment leads him to act in such a way. When the lagna and the lords of the third and eighth houses are interrelated and afflicted by malefic planets, or are weak in strength, death by suicide may be indicated. The fifth house as the abode of intellect and judgment is of secondary import. Planetary Indicators of Suicide: The Moon represents the mind or the mood of a particular situation. Thus, it may be involved when one commits suicide. Mercury represents the nervous system. Without the stress and tension on the nervous system, no one commits suicide. Therefore, affliction of the Moon and Mercury by Mars, Saturn, Rahu or Ketu is of primary importance in the chart. The conjunction or aspect of benign Jupiter, blissful Venus or a powerful ninth lord will save the situation. A Sample of Applicable Classical Yogas: There were rare cases of suicide in ancient India. Hence, the sages did not offer specific combinations for suicide. They did, however, reveal specific combinations for "natural and unnatural death." As the occurrence of suicide has become more prevalent in our chaotic times, the astrologer who seeks guidance from the classical literature must broadly interpret these yogas for death. As an example, the following are given in Saravali, the ancient classic by Kalyana Varma: [1] Death due to fire if the Sun is posited in the eighth house. Death due to water if the Moon is posited in the eighth house. Death from a weapon if Mars is posited in the eighth house. Death due to fever if Mercury is in the eighth house. Death from a mucous disease[2] if Jupiter is in the eighth house. Death from thirst if Venus is in the eighth house. Death from hunger if Saturn is posited in the eighth house. The above shloka has been repeated in other classics, as well, indicating that the influence of a planet on the eighth house indicates the mode of death, whether death is natural, accidental, or unnatural as in suicide. Additionally, according to Saravali, when Mars is posited in the fourth house and the Sun is in the tenth, the native will die due to a fall from a mountain or a blow to the head by a rock or stone. [3] Similarly, these same rules would apply to manner of suicide. As stated in Saravali, a native will die by drowning if Mars is in the fourth house, the Moon is in the seventh, and Saturn is in the tenth. [4] We can likewise interpret this rule for deaths by any means, including suicide. All these yogas can be understood in the same manner. Suicide by Fire: [5] Mars in the tenth house, with Moon in the fourth house and Saturn in the second house. Sun, Mars and Mercury in the tenth house. Moon posited in Aries or Scorpio, hemmed between malefic planets—death by fire or by a weapon. Sun in the eighth house. The Moon posited in a sign of Saturn (Capricorn, Aquarius) and hemmed between malefic planets, indicates that one will commit suicide by burning, jumping from a high place, or hanging. Though the tattva of the sign is not considered in the above yogas, in practice, it has been noted that there must be involvement of Feiry signs (1, 5 and 9) or Airy signs (3, 7, and 11). Suicide by Hanging:[6] The lagna lord and second lord conjoined Rahu and Ketu in the sixth, eighth, or twelfth house. Rahu or Ketu occupy the eighth house in a sign of Saturn. The eighth lord in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets. Saturn in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets. The eighth house and eighth navamsha (both) in Pisces. The Moon and Mercury occupy the sixth or eighth house. The fifth or ninth house occupied by a malefic planet and aspected by malefic planets signifies suicide by hanging, jumping from a high place, or fire. Suicide by Poison: The lagna lord and second lord occupy the sixth, eighth or twelfth house and are conjoined Saturn. The Moon is in the eighth house, the lagna is occupied by malefic planets, and Saturn as seventh and/or eighth lord posited in a dusthana: similarly, the eighth lord is in the seventh house, the seventh lord is in the lagna, and the lagna lord is in the twelfth house. The eighth house in a sign of Saturn and occupied by Rahu or Ketu. The eighth lord in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets. Saturn in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets. Suicide by a Weapon: Mars in the eighth house in its own sign. Ketu and the fourth lord in the sixth or eighth house. Saturn, Mars and Rahu in the eighth house. Mars and Saturn in the lagna, and the Moon in the eighth house. The Moon in a sign of Mars and hemmed between malefic planets. The Moon and Saturn in a sign of Venus. Mars in the fourth house, the Sun in the seventh, and Saturn in the tenth house indicates that one will commit suicide by fire, or weapon. [7] Suicide by a Fall or Jumping from a High Place: Mars in the fourth house and the Sun in the tenth. Suicide from drowning: [8] Mars in the fourth house, the Moon in the seventh, and Saturn in the tenth. Sun and Moon in Pisces Lagna. A Related Topic: Death by Capital Punishment: Mercury and Saturn in the eighth house. Mars and Saturn in the eighth house. The second lord and the lagna lord in a dusthana. The debilitated Sun in the sixth or eighth house aspected by malefic planets (the native or his father will die as a result of punishment by the government). More yoga for suicide can be culled from the classics, but even so, the main principle remains the same: The Moon and Mercury must be afflicted; and, the lords of the lagna and third and eighth houses must be interrelated. The following examples explain this principle. Case One: The native was born on November 4, 1968, at 19:45 PM, Delhi, India, and had a balance of Ketu Dasha for 6 months and 20 days. The Moon is posited in the sign of Mars (Aries) in the twelfth house, and Mercury is posited in the sixth house with a debilitated Sun. Following the principle that a retrograde planet is able to exert its influence from the preceding house, Saturn in the eleventh house is exerting its third aspect onto the Moon from the tenth house. The Moon is the third lord; Jupiter is the eighth lord; and the lagna is afflicted by Saturn. The lagna lord is posited in the sign of Mars (Scorpio). The native took sleeping pills in Moon/Rahu/Venus dasha. The Moon is third lord; Rahu signifies poison; and Venus is the lagna lord. Venus is in the nakshatra of Mercury, which rules the mouth. In the navamsha, the Moon is posited in its own sign of Cancer in the twelfth house; Mercury is in the third house; Saturn is in the eighth house; Rahu is in the fourth house in Scorpio; Venus is in the seventh house with Jupiter; and, Mars is in Saturn's sign (Aquarius). Therefore, there is no relief to the native. Case Two: The native was born on October 30, 1960 at 4:00 AM, Delhi, India. She attempted suicide on October 30, 1999, by consuming sleeping pills, during Mercury/Mercury/Venus dasha. The Moon is posited in the sixth house with Ketu, and aspected by fifth and sixth lord Saturn. Mercury is retrograde in Mars' sign (Scorpio) in the third house, and conjoined Venus, second lord (the second lord rules the mouth). Eighth lord Mars is posited in the tenth house in the sign of Mercury (Gemini), and Mercury is in the sign of Mars (Scorpio). Therefore there is an exchange between the eighth lord and the third lord. Mercury is also lagna lord, and Mars aspects the lagna and fifth house. In the navamsha, Saturn and Rahu are posited in the eighth house, and Mars and Ketu are in the second. Venus is third and eighth lord occupying the tenth house in the sign of Jupiter (Sagittarius). All the karakas and related houses and their lords are afflicted. Jupiter in its own sign in the fourth house forms a strong Pancha Mahapurusha Yoga, which saved her in time, even though Jupiter is also seventh lord. Case Three: The native was born on September 6, 1962, at 21:20 PM, Delhi, India. The Moon is placed in the eighth house in the sign of Mars (Scorpio). Rahu is disposited by the Moon, and receives a full aspect from retrograde Saturn in the tenth house in its own sign of Capricorn. Mercury is posited in the sixth house in its own sign and aspected by Mars, eighth lord. Therefore, both the Moon and Mercury are afflicted. The third house is occupied by Mars, which is both lagna lord and eighth lord. Mars creates a link between the lagna and third and eighth houses. Saturn conjoins Ketu in the tenth house and is aspected by Mars. He committed suicide by consuming pills. Many more examples could be given showing the relationship between the lords of the lagna, third and eighth houses, with afflictions of the Moon and Mercury.[9] The tenth house will also have a significant role to play in suicidal acts, since the tenth house is the most important house of the horoscope, after the first. The tenth house is at the apex of the astrological chart and represents the zenith of human experience. In suicide, there will be a strong malefic influence on the tenth house. This idea will certainly be confirmed by further astrological investigation. [s.C. Kursija is a graduate of Delhi University, Post graduate from Meerut University and Homeopathic System of Medicines in Delhi. He has worked in various capacities for Delhi Homeopathy Medical Association (DHMA), and was founder and chief editor of their monthly journal, Hahnemann Homoeopathic Sandesh. He has received numerous awards and passed the Jyotish Visharad from the Indian Council of Astrological Sciences (Madras). He was a member of the faculty of Bhartiya Vidhya Bhawan and has taught astrology for ICAS, Madras Delhi Chapter-1. Dr. Kursija was General Secretary of all Indian Federation of Astrologers Societies. Dr. Kursija teaches astrology and Vaastu in various chapters, and has written on various topics of interest. He is particularly interested in hearing from fellow astrologers who are interested in research in human behaviour, particularly children. He teaches medical astrology, longevity, horary, Mundane and advance and composite techniques of prediction. He can be contacted at BA/ 45B, Phase-I, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110 052; (M) 9350227360; © 27457830; and Email: sckursija.] [1] 47:1. [2] Ed. Note: Mucous diseases can be interpreted as illnesses of the respiratory, gastrointestinal, pancreatic and liver systems. [3] 47:3. [4] Ibid [5] Ibid, 47:6. [6] Saravali, 47:7. [7] Saravali, 47:12. [8] Ibid, 47:3. [9] The author does not possess charts of victims who have died from suicide by hanging, jumping from high buildings and other similar modes. He shall be thankful if such charts are analyzed and offered for further research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Respected Sh.Sunil Nair ji, Thanks for high lighting the article. There is no need to print my introduction at the end of the article. The publisher have printed it with the file. It is attached with the file. So when I post the file, it was also posted. Regards. --- On Mon, 6/8/09, sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala wrote: sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Suicide: Astrological Investigation Dr. S. C. Kursija Monday, June 8, 2009, 9:26 PM Suicide: Astrological Investigation  Dr. S. C. Kursija  Death is as natural as life. According to the Bhagavad-Gita, " For that which is born must die, and that which is dead must be born again " (10: 26-27). The end of life is accepted as a law of nature. However, the suicide of an apparently sane person is so unnatural that it evokes anguish and perplexity.  Though still aberrant, suicide is perhaps more explicable when carried out for a seemingly logical reason. The world is replete with dramatic examples of suicide victims who have died to save themselves from disgrace or oppression.  For instance, at the end of World War II, German dictator Adolf Hitler committed suicide by a self-inflicted gunshot and cyanide poisoning. The Rajput Queen Padmavati chose voluntary death to avoid dishonor at the hands of the Mughal ruler Allaudin.  Bangladeshi women leap to their deaths to avoid becoming prey to the violent and lustful Pakistani soldiers who tyrannize them. In Singapore, trafficked Indonesian maids commonly jump out of high-rise apartments to avoid a degrading life of enslavement.  As in the above examples, one might be able to make some small sense out of suicide when it is performed to save one from a life of torture and humiliation. Yet, it is difficult to fathom that contemporary students take their own lives due to stress over examinations or social conflicts.  Suicide is a voluntary and intentional act that arises from inner or outer frustration, fear, or humiliation. The high rate of suicide in modern Western culture reflects the deviance of a materialistic society. As Western materialism continues to inform global culture, so do the number of senseless suicides grow in India, as well. Yet, the ancient seers of India revealed the universal law of karma that would, if followed, prevent such meaningless acts. Life is sacred and purposeful and has a natural course.  What is the mysterious karma behind such an aberrant act as suicide? Such karma is explained by the language of astrology. No action of humankind is outside the scope of this vast science, including the manner of one's death. Whether through suicide, accident, murder, or any other way, death can be judged from one's horoscope.  Astrological Houses Responsible for Suicide:  The eighth house from the lagna of the horoscope of the native shows the mode of death. The eighth from the eighth–that is, the third from the lagna—signifies the self and its intention and valor. One who attempts suicide needs the courage and intention to end his life. Therefore, the third house is the house of suicide.  The lagna similarly reveals the self and its intentions. When the lords of the first and third houses are well disposed—exalted; posited in a kendra, trine, own or friend's house; aspected by benefic planets and without the influence or hemming of malefic planets—the native has the courage to bravely solve his problems and face all situations.  When there are afflictions to the lords of the first and third houses, and/or to the houses themselves, and/or to the karakas of these houses, the native does not have the courage to face his difficulties. He may become so mentally disturbed that he spontaneously decides to end his life. Such an individual is not mentally weak or a coward, but an impulsive force in the moment leads him to act in such a way.  When the lagna and the lords of the third and eighth houses are interrelated and afflicted by malefic planets, or are weak in strength, death by suicide may be indicated.  The fifth house as the abode of intellect and judgment is of secondary import.  Planetary Indicators of Suicide:  The Moon represents the mind or the mood of a particular situation. Thus, it may be involved when one commits suicide. Mercury represents the nervous system. Without the stress and tension on the nervous system, no one commits suicide. Therefore, affliction of the Moon and Mercury by Mars, Saturn, Rahu or Ketu is of primary importance in the chart. The conjunction or aspect of benign Jupiter, blissful Venus or a powerful ninth lord will save the situation.  A Sample of Applicable Classical Yogas:  There were rare cases of suicide in ancient India. Hence, the sages did not offer specific combinations for suicide. They did, however, reveal specific combinations for " natural and unnatural death. " As the occurrence of suicide has become more prevalent in our chaotic times, the astrologer who seeks guidance from the classical literature must broadly interpret these yogas for death. As an example, the following are given in Saravali, the ancient classic by Kalyana Varma: [1]  Death due to fire if the Sun is posited in the eighth house.  Death due to water if the Moon is posited in the eighth house.  Death from a weapon if Mars is posited in the eighth house.  Death due to fever if Mercury is in the eighth house.  Death from a mucous disease[2] if Jupiter is in the eighth house.  Death from thirst if Venus is in the eighth house.  Death from hunger if Saturn is posited in the eighth house.  The above shloka has been repeated in other classics, as well, indicating that the influence of a planet on the eighth house indicates the mode of death, whether death is natural, accidental, or unnatural as in suicide. Additionally, according to Saravali, when Mars is posited in the fourth house and the Sun is in the tenth, the native will die due to a fall from a mountain or a blow to the head by a rock or stone. [3] Similarly, these same rules would apply to manner of suicide.  As stated in Saravali, a native will die by drowning if Mars is in the fourth house, the Moon is in the seventh, and Saturn is in the tenth. [4] We can likewise interpret this rule for deaths by any means, including suicide. All these yogas can be understood in the same manner.  Suicide by Fire: [5] Mars in the tenth house, with Moon in the fourth house and Saturn in the second house.  Sun, Mars and Mercury in the tenth house. Moon posited in Aries or Scorpio, hemmed between malefic planets—death by fire or by a weapon.  Sun in the eighth house.  The Moon posited in a sign of Saturn (Capricorn, Aquarius) and hemmed between malefic planets, indicates that one will commit suicide by burning, jumping from a high place, or hanging.  Though the tattva of the sign is not considered in the above yogas, in practice, it has been noted that there must be involvement of Feiry signs (1, 5 and 9) or Airy signs (3, 7, and 11).  Suicide by Hanging:[6]  The lagna lord and second lord conjoined Rahu and Ketu in the sixth, eighth, or twelfth house.  Rahu or Ketu occupy the eighth house in a sign of Saturn.  The eighth lord in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets.  Saturn in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets.  The eighth house and eighth navamsha (both) in Pisces.  The Moon and Mercury occupy the sixth or eighth house.  The fifth or ninth house occupied by a malefic planet and aspected by malefic planets signifies suicide by hanging, jumping from a high place, or fire.  Suicide by Poison:  The lagna lord and second lord occupy the sixth, eighth or twelfth house and are conjoined Saturn.  The Moon is in the eighth house, the lagna is occupied by malefic planets, and Saturn as seventh and/or eighth lord posited in a dusthana:  similarly, the eighth lord is in the seventh house, the seventh lord is in the lagna, and the lagna lord is in the twelfth house.  The eighth house in a sign of Saturn and occupied by Rahu or Ketu.  The eighth lord in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets.  Saturn in the eighth house conjoined malefic planets.  Suicide by a Weapon:  Mars in the eighth house in its own sign.  Ketu and the fourth lord in the sixth or eighth house.  Saturn, Mars and Rahu in the eighth house.  Mars and Saturn in the lagna, and the Moon in the eighth house.  The Moon in a sign of Mars and hemmed between malefic planets.  The Moon and Saturn in a sign of Venus.  Mars in the fourth house, the Sun in the seventh, and Saturn in the tenth house indicates that one will commit suicide by fire, or weapon. [7]  Suicide by a Fall or Jumping from a High Place:  Mars in the fourth house and the Sun in the tenth.  Suicide from drowning: [8]  Mars in the fourth house, the Moon in the seventh, and Saturn in the tenth.  Sun and Moon in Pisces Lagna.  A Related Topic: Death by Capital Punishment:  Mercury and Saturn in the eighth house.  Mars and Saturn in the eighth house.  The second lord and the lagna lord in a dusthana.  The debilitated Sun in the sixth or eighth house aspected by malefic planets (the native or his father will die as a result of punishment by the government).  More yoga for suicide can be culled from the classics, but even so, the main principle remains the same:  The Moon and Mercury must be afflicted; and, the lords of the lagna and third and eighth houses must be interrelated.  The following examples explain this principle.  Case One:  The native was born on November 4, 1968, at 19:45 PM, Delhi, India, and had a balance of Ketu Dasha for 6 months and 20 days.  The Moon is posited in the sign of Mars (Aries) in the twelfth house, and Mercury is posited in the sixth house with a debilitated Sun. Following the principle that a retrograde planet is able to exert its influence from the preceding house, Saturn in the eleventh house is exerting its third aspect onto the Moon from the tenth house. The Moon is the third lord; Jupiter is the eighth lord; and the lagna is afflicted by Saturn. The lagna lord is posited in the sign of Mars (Scorpio).  The native took sleeping pills in Moon/Rahu/Venus dasha. The Moon is third lord; Rahu signifies poison; and Venus is the lagna lord. Venus is in the nakshatra of Mercury, which rules the mouth.  In the navamsha, the Moon is posited in its own sign of Cancer in the twelfth house; Mercury is in the third house; Saturn is in the eighth house; Rahu is in the fourth house in Scorpio; Venus is in the seventh house with Jupiter; and, Mars is in Saturn's sign (Aquarius). Therefore, there is no relief to the native.  Case Two:  The native was born on October 30, 1960 at 4:00 AM, Delhi, India. She attempted suicide on October 30, 1999, by consuming sleeping pills, during Mercury/Mercury/Venus dasha.  The Moon is posited in the sixth house with Ketu, and aspected by fifth and sixth lord Saturn. Mercury is retrograde in Mars' sign (Scorpio) in the third house, and conjoined Venus, second lord (the second lord rules the mouth). Eighth lord Mars is posited in the tenth house in the sign of Mercury (Gemini), and Mercury is in the sign of Mars (Scorpio). Therefore there is an exchange between the eighth lord and the third lord. Mercury is also lagna lord, and Mars aspects the lagna and fifth house.  In the navamsha, Saturn and Rahu are posited in the eighth house, and Mars and Ketu are in the second. Venus is third and eighth lord occupying the tenth house in the sign of Jupiter (Sagittarius).  All the karakas and related houses and their lords are afflicted. Jupiter in its own sign in the fourth house forms a strong Pancha Mahapurusha Yoga, which saved her in time, even though Jupiter is also seventh lord.  Case Three:   The native was born on September 6, 1962, at 21:20 PM, Delhi, India.  The Moon is placed in the eighth house in the sign of Mars (Scorpio). Rahu is disposited by the Moon, and receives a full aspect from retrograde Saturn in the tenth house in its own sign of Capricorn. Mercury is posited in the sixth house in its own sign and aspected by Mars, eighth lord.  Therefore, both the Moon and Mercury are afflicted.  The third house is occupied by Mars, which is both lagna lord and eighth lord. Mars creates a link between the lagna and third and eighth houses. Saturn conjoins Ketu in the tenth house and is aspected by Mars. He committed suicide by consuming pills.  Many more examples could be given showing the relationship between the lords of the lagna, third and eighth houses, with afflictions of the Moon and Mercury.[9]  The tenth house will also have a significant role to play in suicidal acts, since the tenth house is the most important house of the horoscope, after the first. The tenth house is at the apex of the astrological chart and represents the zenith of human experience. In suicide, there will be a strong malefic influence on the tenth house. This idea will certainly be confirmed by further astrological investigation.   [s.C. Kursija is a graduate of Delhi University, Post graduate from Meerut University and Homeopathic System of Medicines in Delhi. He has worked in various capacities for Delhi Homeopathy Medical Association (DHMA), and was founder and chief editor of their monthly journal, Hahnemann Homoeopathic Sandesh. He has received numerous awards and passed the Jyotish Visharad from the Indian Council of Astrological Sciences (Madras). He was a member of the faculty of Bhartiya Vidhya Bhawan and has taught astrology for ICAS, Madras Delhi Chapter-1. Dr. Kursija was General Secretary of all Indian Federation of Astrologers Societies. Dr. Kursija teaches astrology and Vaastu in various chapters, and has written on various topics of interest. He is particularly interested in hearing from fellow astrologers who are interested in  research in human behaviour, particularly children. He teaches medical astrology, longevity, horary, Mundane and advance and composite techniques of prediction. He can be contacted at BA/ 45B, Phase-I, Ashok Vihar, Delhi 110 052; (M) 9350227360; © 27457830; and Email: sckursija.]  [1] 47:1. [2] Ed. Note: Mucous diseases can be interpreted as illnesses of the respiratory, gastrointestinal, pancreatic and liver systems. [3] 47:3. [4] Ibid [5] Ibid, 47:6. [6] Saravali, 47:7. [7] Saravali, 47:12. [8] Ibid, 47:3. [9] The author does not possess charts of victims who have died from suicide by hanging, jumping from high buildings and other similar modes. He shall be thankful if such charts are analyzed and offered for further research.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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