Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

[Guest guest]

Dear sunil Bhattacharjya ji

 

Why u expect some sense,honesty or integrity frm kaul and his D team

 

All this calender gimmicks is just Hog wash

 

It is a way to attack astrology and Hindu sastras and even vedas and other allied litterature

 

The reason i explained already many times b4 ,Only in india all the

christian fundmantalists plans failed ,the other places they failed r

muslim countries (All other places accepted the new faith within no

matter of time ,so this intellectual supremcy of hindus shud b

demolished ) .But muslims will not b tolerant like hindus even for one

day and every one has lov towards his own life or u hav to liv like

salman rushdi for rest of ur life .So they left muslims as it is and

concntrating on hindus .

 

Eeven after 2 centuries of british rule they cannot change the hindus

,when they left there is only 2% christians in india ( that includes

the majority of kerala christians who were mostly childrns of migrnt

jews ( some 1000s of yrs back when there was prosecutions against jews

were going on and kerala kings allowed them to stay with all dignity )

to kerala and whom they converted than brits can claim anything there

those days ) ,so they understood unless hindus become ashamed of their

own culture and legacy no way they can execute their plans here .now

the new education system in english and most of the hindus are ignorent

of veda s and even the good old ppl who were well informed r also gone

,so they still trying to succeed in india .And unlimited funds r

available too .

 

so they may arrive as calender reformists ,atheists ,communists ,or

even as old astrologers like hari malla ji whose mails are good exmple

that he dont know either veda ,or astrology or even basic concepts of

calander .

 

I read some one invited kaul for open debate ,he dont seems to b

accepted that ,he was just proposing a debate than sitting in net and

twisting facts (

 

References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

Dear Veda Interested Audience

 

 

May be somebody should compile all the contemporary

comments and have a discussion at meeting. It is too important a topic to let

it go waste. Interested please cooperate. Best wishes.

Ujjagar Singh Wassan )

 

but in asnwer to the mail i dont find kaul accepts it as an opportunity but he was still going on with his verbal daiorrea (Now they have

devised devious ways of interpreting Vedic mantras in a manner that suits their

fancy! Majority of Hindus being “scholars†of “Vedic astrology†instead

of the Vedas fall easily hook, line and sinker for these ploys of “Vedic

jyotishisâ€.--AKK )

 

i

asked kaul to show his calender according to specification of vedanga

jyothisha ,( sure with his own claims like there is no zodiac ,no

rasies ,no degrees ,no solar months etc )

now i find he is asking u and others to date veda or some texts ??

 

is it not clearly shows what was his mission and it is not a calender

,because he can again prolong this futile exercise in the name of

antiquity of vedas ( as he has no way to defend his No rasies in vedas

any more ) even he is clinging on some old scholars who fall for some

western propoganda of Aryan invasion or aryan tourist theory .So who

convenently quotes who wrote what ever he wants than his mission is

sincere or honest .

 

rgrds sunil nair

Re: Re: Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

Dear Sunil Nairji,

 

I have given the verses spoken by Pulastya who clearly says that

the Rashis are composed of the fixed Nakshatras and yet Hari-wrestler

wants to change them. We Hindus are tolerant and that is why he can

dare to say so. Even AKK also insists that the Rashis are Tropical and

says that Rashis have no relation with the Nakshatras, though Pulastya

makes it very clear that the Rashis are Sidereal. In fact the Purana

has also given the directions for the Soli-Lunar Sidereal calendar,

according to which, for example, the Lunar month will be Magha when

the Sun is in the Makara Rashi. These people do not understand shastras

and yet talks about shastra.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with India Travel Click here!

[Guest guest]

Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya),

I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So am

I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation.So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals are

seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas say,when

we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan which we know

is tropical.

Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now agreee

to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not pratial

truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra),Tapa sukla{pakshya)which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan tithi was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush

purnima 15 days backwards.We are still celebrating these dates even now when the

date has again expired since poush purnima never meets both the tropical

uttrayan and the sidereal uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar

sankranti) falls at the midddle of the poush purnima zone but the tropical

uttrayan does not fall in its fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas

fluctuation.The tropical uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to

mrigashira full moon zone.Oce full moon backwards.

So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from

makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original

effectiveness.There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to

coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is the

vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by

Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand

that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of

vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.

Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and enquire

if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i have

observed many times in th epast discussions.Thaking you ,I remain,

Sincerely yurs,

Hari malla

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Nairji,

 

This wrestler's baseless talks are continuing.

 

1)

Has he told the group so far about where he found in the shastras that 88

constellations should be counted and not 12. I find in the Shastras that only 12

rashis and 27 yogataras are to be considered and that the latter are divided

into quarters so that we have 108 quarters in all and each Rashi has 9 quarters.

 

2)

Now he is talking about Sidereal tithis without substantiating with reference.

 

3)

This person thinks that all the festivals are Tropical without any exception and

has not substantiated that.

 

4)

Puranas say that the Sun has to be in the Makar Rashi for the lunar month of

Magha.

 

dekÄraÅ›coruyugalaṃ makaro 'pyatra saṃsthitaḥ |

mÄgho nigadito mÄsaḥ patrakaṃ daÅ›amaṃ smá¹›tam || 35.63 ||

 

We also know that the Winter Solstice occurred in the Makar rashi for about 22

centuries and  it stopped occurring in the Makara rashi from the 3rd century

CE. What is the relevance of the wrestler telling that Tapa and Magha should

occur together even now ?

 

5)

The wrestler wants to mix AKK's poison with our Amritam so that a compromise can

be made and the Amritam can be converted to poison. Who wants compromise? I

don't think anybody in the AIA wants any compromise from the truth. I do not

support this crooked idea of the wrestler.

 

6)

This person does not want to accept that when Varahamihira was alive at that

time the Winter Solstice was occurring in the Makar Rashi.

 

Of course if he wants to entertain us with his foolish ideas and we decide to

continue to enjoy that then it is another matter.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Sun, 6/14/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

 

 

harimalla <harimalla

Re:

Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

 

Sunday, June 14, 2009, 7:35 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,

I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So am

I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals are

seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas say,when

we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan which we know

is tropical.

Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now agreee

to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not pratial

truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan tithi

was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days backwards.We

are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again expired since

poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the sidereal

uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the midddle

of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its

fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical

uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon

zone.Oce full moon backwards.

So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from

makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original

effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to

coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is the

vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by

Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand

that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of

vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.

Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and enquire

if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i have

observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,

Sincerely yurs,

Hari malla

[Guest guest]

Dear Hari Malla Ji,

 

Most of us have been silently observing this seemingly never ending discussion.

If this discussion is going to continue like this, for the sake of courtesy to

all the people in the list, I kindly request that you please post a concise

email clearly mentioning the following points:

 

1. What is the issue in question?

2.Why is this issue important for ancient_vedic_astrology?

3. What is the final conclusion that you hope to obtain from these discussions?

4. After every thing is said and done, will the final conclusion improve the

quality of prediction?

 

Please bear in mind that most of  us joined this group to discuss Ancient Indian

astrology. We did not join this to answer the question : Is Indian Astrology

Ancient?

 

Regards,

 

-Manoj

 

________________________________

" harimalla " <harimalla

 

Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:35:39 PM

Re:

Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

 

 

 

 

 

Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,

I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So am

I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals are

seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas say,when

we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan which we know

is tropical.

Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now agreee

to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not pratial

truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan tithi

was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days backwards..We

are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again expired since

poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the sidereal

uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the midddle

of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its

fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical

uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon

zone.Oce full moon backwards.

So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from

makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original

effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to

coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is the

vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by

Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand

that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of

vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.

Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and enquire

if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i have

observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,

Sincerely yurs,

Hari malla

[Guest guest]

Dear Manoj Chandranji,

Thank you for the quories.

1 and 2. The issue in question is that, the astrology practised today is not as

laid down by the ancient sages.The ancient sages laid down the principles that

the sun and the mooon are to be coordinated as the basis of our astrology and

calendar.Thus the system of celebrating the adhimas every third year for the

purpose of coordinating the two types of months- solar and the lunar.We all know

that the adhimas is of one month.Thus this method can adjust for a difference

of one month only for the solar and the lunar seasons.Now since the difference

has gone upto 39 days, the priciples of seasonal difference as laid down by our

ancestors has already ben violated.This violation is due to the fact that

ayanamsa has risen to 24 degrees.Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15

degrees, to keep up the accuracy of our astrological system as laid down by the

sages.

People are not able to catch the problem and of course without knowing the

problem they are in no mood to amend the situation.

 

3.This requires the realignment of our calendar so the solar and the lunar

seasons do not cross the intended limit.The solution is the shifting of one

fullmonth of both the solar and the lunar months to catch up with the seasonal

sankranti.This discussion is on the very basis of our system and of utmost

importance.But many people would not like to admit the problem itself.Thus they

make all excuses to avoid the amendments.Perhaps they feel,in doing so,their

clients will lose faith in astrology itself as they are over believing in the

prediction they make.But the careful analysis of the problem shows the basis has

been violated by the excessive ayanamsa and reformation is necessary.The sooner

it is done the better.

 

4.After the reform, the quality of prediction will surely be brought back to the

original accuracy.You must be knowing the predictions are done on the basis of

both the lagan rashi and the lunar rashi. Now due to excessive ayanamsa, the

coordination of the lagan and lunar positons are no more coordinated.This

disruption of coordination must be restored for the system to work.Of course the

less the ayanamsa the better the accuracy of prediction.But due to our nirayan

system a difference of 15 degrees is allowable due to the 15 days fluctuation of

the fullmoon and sankranti.But 24 degrees ayanamsa violates the basics

principles of seasonal coordination of the sun and the moon i.e. fullmoon and

sankrantis.

I hope I have clarified your quories, to some extent.Thank you once again.

Regards,

Hari Malla

 

, Manoj Chandran

<chandran_manoj wrote:

>

> Dear Hari Malla Ji,

>

> Most of us have been silently observing this seemingly never ending

discussion. If this discussion is going to continue like this, for the sake of

courtesy to all the people in the list, I kindly request that you please post a

concise email clearly mentioning the following points:

>

> 1. What is the issue in question?

> 2.Why is this issue important for ancient_vedic_astrology?

> 3. What is the final conclusion that you hope to obtain from these

discussions?

> 4. After every thing is said and done, will the final conclusion improve the

quality of prediction?

>  

> Please bear in mind that most of  us joined this group to discuss Ancient

Indian astrology. We did not join this to answer the question : Is Indian

Astrology Ancient?

>  

> Regards,

>  

> -Manoj

>  

> ________________________________

> " harimalla " <harimalla

>

> Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:35:39 PM

> Re:

Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

>

>

>

>

>

> Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,

> I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So am

I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

> I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

> But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals

are seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas

say,when we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan

which we know is tropical.

> Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now

agreee to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not

pratial truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

> What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan tithi

> was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days

backwards..We are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again

expired since poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the

sidereal uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the

midddle of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its

fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical

uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon

zone.Oce full moon backwards.

> So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from

makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original

effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to

coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is the

vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by

Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand

that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of

vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.

> Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and

enquire if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i

have observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,

> Sincerely yurs,

> Hari malla

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Members,

 

1)

 

Mr. Harimalla has written as follows:

 

Quote

 

Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15 degrees, to keep up the accuracy of our astrological system as laid down by the sages.

 

UNquote

 

Where is the reference from the Shastras as to which sage said what and where and when.?

 

2)

Nobody in the history of Hindu calendar had ever changed the fixed stars of the Rashis uptill this day. Makar Rashi had always had 3 padas of Uttarashadha, 4 padas of Shravana and 2 padas of Dhanistha and it will always remain so. Nobody can change the composition of the Rashis.

 

3)

Mr. Harimalla had declared that he does not believe in astrology. Then what knowledge and right he has to say what is required for astrology?

 

4)

Sidereal calendar has follow its own principles of linking up with the fixed Nakshatras and it is independent of the effects of precession. The Tropical calendar is dependent on precession and therefore the Tropical"Tapa" month can be dragged behind by one month as it is related to the Winter Solstice and nothing else needs to be done. If people like Harimalla think that it is a must then let these people call the Sidereal Lunar Pausha month as equivalent to the Tropical Pausha month. Mind that this can only solve the adamance of these people. We cannot allow to them to temper with the Vedic Sidereal months which are associated with fixed Nakshatras.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Mon, 6/15/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

harimalla <harimalla Re: Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 5:03 AM

 

 

Dear Manoj Chandranji,Thank you for the quories.1 and 2. The issue in question is that, the astrology practised today is not as laid down by the ancient sages.The ancient sages laid down the principles that the sun and the mooon are to be coordinated as the basis of our astrology and calendar.Thus the system of celebrating the adhimas every third year for the purpose of coordinating the two types of months- solar and the lunar.We all know that the adhimas is of one month.Thus this method can adjust for a difference of one month only for the solar and the lunar seasons.Now since the difference has gone upto 39 days, the priciples of seasonal difference as laid down by our ancestors has already ben violated.This violation is due to the fact that ayanamsa has risen to 24 degrees.Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15 degrees, to keep up the accuracy of our astrological system as laid down by the sages.People are not able to catch the

problem and of course without knowing the problem they are in no mood to amend the situation.3.This requires the realignment of our calendar so the solar and the lunar seasons do not cross the intended limit.The solution is the shifting of one fullmonth of both the solar and the lunar months to catch up with the seasonal sankranti.This discussion is on the very basis of our system and of utmost importance.But many people would not like to admit the problem itself.Thus they make all excuses to avoid the amendments.Perhaps they feel,in doing so,their clients will lose faith in astrology itself as they are over believing in the prediction they make.But the careful analysis of the problem shows the basis has been violated by the excessive ayanamsa and reformation is necessary.The sooner it is done the better. 4.After the reform, the quality of prediction will surely be brought back to the original accuracy.You must be knowing the predictions

are done on the basis of both the lagan rashi and the lunar rashi. Now due to excessive ayanamsa, the coordination of the lagan and lunar positons are no more coordinated. This disruption of coordination must be restored for the system to work.Of course the less the ayanamsa the better the accuracy of prediction.But due to our nirayan system a difference of 15 degrees is allowable due to the 15 days fluctuation of the fullmoon and sankranti.But 24 degrees ayanamsa violates the basics principles of seasonal coordination of the sun and the moon i.e. fullmoon and sankrantis.I hope I have clarified your quories, to some extent.Thank you once again.Regards,Hari Mallaancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@

....> wrote:>> Dear Hari Malla Ji,> > Most of us have been silently observing this seemingly never ending discussion. If this discussion is going to continue like this, for the sake of courtesy to all the people in the list, I kindly request that you please post a concise email clearly mentioning the following points:> > 1. What is the issue in question?> 2.Why is this issue important for ancient_vedic_ astrology?> 3. What is the final conclusion that you hope to obtain from these discussions?> 4. After every thing is said and done, will the final conclusion improve the quality of prediction?> > Please bear in mind that most of us joined this group to discuss Ancient Indian astrology. We did not join this to answer the question : Is Indian Astrology Ancient?> > Regards,> > -Manoj> > ____________ _________

_________ __> "harimalla@. .." <harimalla@. ..>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:35:39 PM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Rashi_Vedic_ Literature_ Chronology_ Sidereal_ Calendar> > > > > > Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,> I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So am I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect patience from both of you.> I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I

accept.Thank you Mr. Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do not look at me with suspicion.> But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals are seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas say,when we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan which we know is tropical.> Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now agreee to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not pratial truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.> What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says 'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa

sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar sankranti.The uttarayan tithi> was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days backwards..We are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again expired since poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the sidereal uttrayan.Now

only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the midddle of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon zone.Oce full moon backwards.> So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is the vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.> Thank

you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and enquire if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i have observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,> Sincerely yurs,> Hari malla>

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhattacharjyaji,

I wanted to reply to your other mail only tomorrow. But now since you have also

touched upon this mail, I will answer now only.

1.Equal to apta vakya is also logic and ganit.So do not think quotation of the

shastras is the only type of proof. I have amply given my reasons in the context

only. When you have to use your logic, you never sseem to digest that and only

like to refer to quotes.The scriptures cannot afford to quote every thing in

life, as you would want to, so that you may never have to use your own brain or

mathematics.I have given my reasons why ayanamsa should not increase more than

15 degrees.It is due to the 15 degrees relationship between the sankranti and

the full moon zone.

2.Now the only way to save the scriptures is by changing the names of the

stars.In the past they did not have to change the names of the stars, because

they were using the rashis for the first time.They did not change the names of

the nakshyatra because they could esasily change the 15 days of tithi from

maagha sukla pratipada of vedanga jyotish to Poush purnima of sidhanta jyotish

by only changing the system from amanta to purnimanta lunar month, keeping the

names of the nakshyatras as of old.But now all the artifices having been

exhausted, changing the names of the stars by 30 degrees is the only way to save

the shastras both jyotish and dharma shastras..

The corresponding nakshyatras and the rashis in my proposal are going to be the

same. There is gong to be no change between the rashis and the nakshyatras in

the relative sense, since both the rashis and the nakshyatras are going to shift

by 30 degrees together as per the sayan system, during calendar reform.The

future makar rashis will also have the same nakshyatras as you have mentioned.

 

3.Having known some basics,I have no problem in saying so to satisfy the phalit

people.Because what I say is true from the phalit point of view also.I do not

want to disturb phalit astrology, thus i thinkit is good to give them the

freedom to select whether they want to go by the new epochal rashis aor the

oldrashis as theyn are udsed to. but i feel the new once will be more

accurate,the new ayanamsa being only 6 degrees instead of the present 24

degrees.Common sese says the lesser the ayanamsa the better the accuracy, the

best being when the two sankrantis being at the sme point as in the beginning,

say around 285 AD.

My disbelieve in astrology is partial.But in the basics of the sun, the moon and

the earth forces effecting us it is also my own theory which I can

scientifically prove perhaps, much better than any phalit people can.

Because the sayan lagan is the first fact and the lunar rashis being out of

sequence with the sayan lagan,the discrepancy is easisly proved due to the

vishuvat now being in two different fullmoon zones.Dharma shastras equal

fullmoon zones with the sankrantis.This can easily be proved by mathematics as

the value of ayanamsa is well known and also th fluctuatuion of the fullmoon

with the sankrantis is ony 15 days.

 

4.The sidereal calendar appears to be independant for the general men. But the

careful persons will know that, this independace also has a limit and that limit

is 15 degrees of ayanamsa.This limit is set by the coordination of the sun and

the moon by the adhimas.If ayanamsa is increased more than 15 degrees, then the

purpose of adhimas is violated, which is the fundamental basis of our soli-lunar

calendar.

If we go by your assumption of the full independance, then in 12000 years,the

sayan uttrayan and the nirayan uttrayan of makar sankranti will be six months

apart, which is a absurd situation.So please give up your adamance.

Remember, what Rabindra nath Tagore has said in the Gitanjali,'Where the clear

stream of reason has not lost its way in the dry sand of dead habit, into that

heaven of freedom,my lord, let my country awake'.So to do him honoour, please

give up your illogical dead habit of total or unlimited nirayaness.The nirayan

system is limited by the full moon zone.This is proven by the vedanga jyotish

and the past reformations done by Barahamihir and others.

Anyway thank you for taking the interest.

Regards,

Hari Malla

 

Read and enjoy another stupid mail frm hari malla

 

tho i dont read it fully to save my valuable time

 

i hope sunil bhattacharya ji will stop responding him

 

sunil nair

 

any way i am approving this mail

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Members,

>  

> 1)

>  

> Mr. Harimalla has written as follows:

>  

> Quote

>  

> Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15 degrees, to keep up the accuracy of

our astrological system as laid down by the sages.

>  

> UNquote

>  

> Where is the reference from the Shastras as to which sage said what and where

and when.?

>  

> 2)

> Nobody in the history of Hindu calendar had ever changed the fixed stars of

the Rashis uptill this day. Makar Rashi had always had  3 padas of Uttarashadha,

4 padas of Shravana and 2 padas of Dhanistha and it will always remain so.

Nobody can change the composition of the Rashis.

>  

> 3)

> Mr. Harimalla had declared that he does not believe in astrology. Then what

knowledge and right he has to say what is required for astrology?

>  

> 4)

> Sidereal calendar has follow its own principles of linking up with the fixed

Nakshatras and it is independent of the effects of precession. The Tropical

calendar is dependent on precession and therefore the Tropical " Tapa " month can

be dragged behind by one month as it is related to the Winter Solstice and

nothing else needs to be done. If people like Harimalla think that it is a must

then let these people  call the Sidereal Lunar Pausha month as equivalent to the

Tropical Pausha month. Mind that this  can only solve the adamance of these

people. We cannot allow to them to temper with the Vedic Sidereal months which

are associated with fixed Nakshatras.

>  

> Regards,

>  

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Mon, 6/15/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

>

>

> harimalla <harimalla

> Re:

Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

>

> Monday, June 15, 2009, 5:03 AM

>

>

Dear Manoj Chandranji,

> Thank you for the quories.

> 1 and 2. The issue in question is that, the astrology practised today is not

as laid down by the ancient sages.The ancient sages laid down the principles

that the sun and the mooon are to be coordinated as the basis of our astrology

and calendar.Thus the system of celebrating the adhimas every third year for the

purpose of coordinating the two types of months- solar and the lunar.We all know

that the adhimas is of one month.Thus this method can adjust for a difference of

one month only for the solar and the lunar seasons.Now since the difference has

gone upto 39 days, the priciples of seasonal difference as laid down by our

ancestors has already ben violated.This violation is due to the fact that

ayanamsa has risen to 24 degrees.Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15

degrees, to keep up the accuracy of our astrological system as laid down by the

sages.

> People are not able to catch the problem and of course without knowing the

problem they are in no mood to amend the situation.

>

> 3.This requires the realignment of our calendar so the solar and the lunar

seasons do not cross the intended limit.The solution is the shifting of one

fullmonth of both the solar and the lunar months to catch up with the seasonal

sankranti.This discussion is on the very basis of our system and of utmost

importance.But many people would not like to admit the problem itself.Thus they

make all excuses to avoid the amendments.Perhaps they feel,in doing so,their

clients will lose faith in astrology itself as they are over believing in the

prediction they make.But the careful analysis of the problem shows the basis has

been violated by the excessive ayanamsa and reformation is necessary.The sooner

it is done the better.

>

> 4.After the reform, the quality of prediction will surely be brought back to

the original accuracy.You must be knowing the predictions are done on the basis

of both the lagan rashi and the lunar rashi. Now due to excessive ayanamsa, the

coordination of the lagan and lunar positons are no more coordinated. This

disruption of coordination must be restored for the system to work.Of course the

less the ayanamsa the better the accuracy of prediction.But due to our nirayan

system a difference of 15 degrees is allowable due to the 15 days fluctuation of

the fullmoon and sankranti.But 24 degrees ayanamsa violates the basics

principles of seasonal coordination of the sun and the moon i.e. fullmoon and

sankrantis.

> I hope I have clarified your quories, to some extent.Thank you once again.

> Regards,

> Hari Malla

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran

<chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Hari Malla Ji,

> >

> > Most of us have been silently observing this seemingly never ending

discussion. If this discussion is going to continue like this, for the sake of

courtesy to all the people in the list, I kindly request that you please post a

concise email clearly mentioning the following points:

> >

> > 1. What is the issue in question?

> > 2.Why is this issue important for ancient_vedic_ astrology?

> > 3. What is the final conclusion that you hope to obtain from these

discussions?

> > 4. After every thing is said and done, will the final conclusion improve the

quality of prediction?

> >  

> > Please bear in mind that most of  us joined this group to discuss Ancient

Indian astrology. We did not join this to answer the question : Is Indian

Astrology Ancient?

> >  

> > Regards,

> >  

> > -Manoj

> >  

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > " harimalla@ .. " <harimalla@ ..>

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:35:39 PM

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Rashi_Vedic_ Literature_

Chronology_ Sidereal_ Calendar

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,

> > I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So

am I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

> > I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

> > But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals

are seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas

say,when we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan

which we know is tropical.

> > Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now

agreee to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not

pratial truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

> > What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan

> tithi

> > was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days

backwards..We are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again

expired since poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the

sidereal uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the

midddle of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its

fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical

uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon

zone.Oce full moon backwards.

> > So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan

from makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its

original effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra

but to coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is

the vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made

by Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should

understand that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at

the time of vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas

earlier.

> > Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and

enquire if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i

have observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,

> > Sincerely yurs,

> > Hari malla

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhattacharjyaji and Nairji,

I am not able to understand why you are turnig deaf ears to facts which must be

given priority.I still think you all will come round to appreciate the truth in

the end.Only truth prevails.

Even if you do not reply to this mail, I am only answering to your quories given

below.

1.The very fact that the shastras talk of only 12 out of 88 contellations proves

beyond doubt that the stars do not directly effect us. They are only fixed

milestones to measure the motions of the sun and the moon, or for that matter

the motion of the earth too.The stars do not effect us by their shapes etc.Thus

there is no problem in changing the names of the stars in the changed context of

the ayana and the seasons which do effects us beyond all doubts.

2.The sidereal tithi are like the fullmoon of maagha connected to the maghaa

nakshyatra.

3.All festivals are basically tropical because the stars do not effects us

directly as mentined above.But when we make sidereal celebrations like makar

sankranti,it is actually a reprsentation of the uttrayan itself which is

basically tropical.The celebration of sankrantis like makar, mesh, karkat etc.

although sidereal are in representation of the solstices and the equnoxes, whcih

are tropical.

4.Maagha and makar are for representation of the winter solstice.This is proved

by the scriptures.The crocodile illustration I have quoted time and again and

clearly indicates the winter solstice.

5.United we stand, divided we fall.Joining hads with AKK is for our survival and

not for our destruction.Since he should also compormise we should not think that

he is winning.We both win if we cooperate.

There is the example of the Bhurundi bird which had two heads.When one found

amrit it did not share with the other and when the other found poison it did

not hesitate to take it just to revenge the other head so that both died.Let us

not repeat that foolishness here.

If you recall I had posted the news of 30 temples in Tamil nadu celebrating the

festivals by the sayan system.If we do not cooperate to save the nirayan system

sooner or later, all in india will be sayan as the cultural death of both you

and Kaulji.Our nirayan culture will be lost.So let us make hay while the sun

shines and give up our senseless egoism and join hands with each other.Did the

Brtisih not practise divide and rule policy?That is still going on to destroy

our culture, if we do not open our eyes and ears now.

6.When Barahmihir was alive, Winter solstice had crossed makar rashi and was in

dhanu rashi.Please check.

Do not laugh at me, if you have any love for your culture.Let us join hands to

save it.thank you,

Regards,

Hari Malla

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Sunil Nairji,

>

> This wrestler's baseless talks are continuing.

>  

> 1)

> Has he told the group so far about where he found in the shastras that 88

constellations should be counted and not 12. I find in the Shastras that only 12

rashis and 27 yogataras are to be considered and that the latter are divided

into quarters so that we have 108 quarters in all and each Rashi has 9 quarters.

>

> 2)

> Now he is talking about Sidereal tithis without substantiating with reference.

>

> 3)

> This person thinks that all the festivals are Tropical without any exception

and has not substantiated that.

>  

> 4)

> Puranas say that the Sun has to be in the Makar Rashi for the lunar month of

Magha.

>

> dekÄraÅ›coruyugalaṃ makaro 'pyatra saṃsthitaḥ |

> mÄgho nigadito mÄsaḥ patrakaṃ daÅ›amaṃ smá¹›tam || 35.63 ||

>

> We also know that the Winter Solstice occurred in the Makar rashi for about 22

centuries and  it stopped occurring in the Makara rashi from the 3rd century

CE. What is the relevance of the wrestler telling that Tapa and Magha should

occur together even now ?

>  

> 5)

> The wrestler wants to mix AKK's poison with our Amritam so that a compromise

can be made and the Amritam can be converted to poison. Who wants compromise? I

don't think anybody in the AIA wants any compromise from the truth. I do not

support this crooked idea of the wrestler.

>  

> 6)

> This person does not want to accept that when Varahamihira was alive at that

time the Winter Solstice was occurring in the Makar Rashi.

>

> Of course if he wants to entertain us with his foolish ideas and we decide to

continue to enjoy that then it is another matter.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

>

> --- On Sun, 6/14/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

>

>

> harimalla <harimalla

> Re:

Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

>

> Sunday, June 14, 2009, 7:35 PM

>

>

Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,

> I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So am

I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

> I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

> But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals

are seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas

say,when we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan

which we know is tropical.

> Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now

agreee to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not

pratial truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

> What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan tithi

> was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days backwards.We

are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again expired since

poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the sidereal

uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the midddle

of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its

fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical

uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon

zone.Oce full moon backwards.

> So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from

makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original

effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to

coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is the

vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by

Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand

that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of

vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.

> Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and

enquire if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i

have observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,

> Sincerely yurs,

> Hari malla

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr Harimalla alias Mr. Kaul,

 

1) You never give straight replies

 

2) You avoid giving straight replies

 

3) Never accept or always in denial mode on all evidences given by my

fellow friends

 

4) For you only Greeks or GEEKS are your gods and originators... (be

happy with them)

 

5) As I said before, what are your credentials and why we should waste

our time on your baseless arguments ??

 

6) First answer to those queries raised by Mr. Prashant Nair in your own

group before he was banned...if you are honest.

 

7) Till then we will continue to ignore you & your unending emails on

this subject i.e. head & tailess mails.

 

My strong suggestion - Please go and teach your ideas where they get

accepted and be content.....

 

Even reading your repetetive arguements ...one gets tired.

 

With regards,

 

Sreeram_Srinivas

[Guest guest]

Where is the reference for the 88 Nakshatras? Unless you reply to this I shall not read a single sentence of yours.

 

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

harimalla <harimalla Re: Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 7:57 PM

 

 

Dear Bhattacharjyaji and Nairji,I am not able to understand why you are turnig deaf ears to facts which must be given priority.I still think you all will come round to appreciate the truth in the end.Only truth prevails.Even if you do not reply to this mail, I am only answering to your quories given below.1.The very fact that the shastras talk of only 12 out of 88 contellations proves beyond doubt that the stars do not directly effect us. They are only fixed milestones to measure the motions of the sun and the moon, or for that matter the motion of the earth too.The stars do not effect us by their shapes etc.Thus there is no problem in changing the names of the stars in the changed context of the ayana and the seasons which do effects us beyond all doubts.2.The sidereal tithi are like the fullmoon of maagha connected to the maghaa nakshyatra.3.All festivals are basically tropical because the stars do not effects us directly as

mentined above.But when we make sidereal celebrations like makar sankranti,it is actually a reprsentation of the uttrayan itself which is basically tropical.The celebration of sankrantis like makar, mesh, karkat etc. although sidereal are in representation of the solstices and the equnoxes, whcih are tropical.4.Maagha and makar are for representation of the winter solstice.This is proved by the scriptures.The crocodile illustration I have quoted time and again and clearly indicates the winter solstice.5.United we stand, divided we fall.Joining hads with AKK is for our survival and not for our destruction. Since he should also compormise we should not think that he is winning.We both win if we cooperate.There is the example of the Bhurundi bird which had two heads.When one found amrit it did not share with the other and when the other found poison it did not hesitate to take it just to revenge the other head so that both died.Let us not

repeat that foolishness here.If you recall I had posted the news of 30 temples in Tamil nadu celebrating the festivals by the sayan system.If we do not cooperate to save the nirayan system sooner or later, all in india will be sayan as the cultural death of both you and Kaulji.Our nirayan culture will be lost.So let us make hay while the sun shines and give up our senseless egoism and join hands with each other.Did the Brtisih not practise divide and rule policy?That is still going on to destroy our culture, if we do not open our eyes and ears now.6.When Barahmihir was alive, Winter solstice had crossed makar rashi and was in dhanu rashi.Please check.Do not laugh at me, if you have any love for your culture.Let us join hands to save it.thank you,Regards,Hari Mallaancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Dear Sunil Nairji,> > This wrestler's baseless talks are continuing.> > 1)> Has he told the group so far about where he found in the shastras that 88 constellations should be counted and not 12. I find in the Shastras that only 12 rashis and 27 yogataras are to be considered and that the latter are divided into quarters so that we have 108 quarters in all and each Rashi has 9 quarters.> > 2)> Now he is talking about Sidereal tithis without substantiating with reference.> > 3)> This person thinks that all the festivals are Tropical without any exception and has not substantiated that.> > 4)> Puranas say that the Sun has to be in the Makar Rashi for the lunar

month of Magha.> > dek�raścoruyugalaṃ makaro 'pyatra saṃsthitaḥ |> m�gho nigadito m�saḥ patrakaṃ daśamaṃ smṛtam || 35.63 ||> > We also know that the Winter Solstice occurred in the Makar rashi for about 22 centuries and it stopped occurring in the Makara rashi from the 3rd century CE. What is the relevance of the wrestler telling that Tapa and Magha should occur together even now ?> > 5)> The wrestler wants to mix AKK's poison with our Amritam so that a compromise can be made and the Amritam can be converted to poison. Who wants compromise? I don't think anybody in the AIA wants any compromise from the truth. I do not support this crooked idea of the wrestler.> > 6)> This person does not want to accept that when Varahamihira was alive at that time the Winter Solstice

was occurring in the Makar Rashi.> > Of course if he wants to entertain us with his foolish ideas and we decide to continue to enjoy that then it is another matter.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > --- On Sun, 6/14/09, harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> wrote:> > > harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..>> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Rashi_Vedic_ Literature_ Chronology_ Sidereal_ Calendar> ancient_indian_ astrology> Sunday, June 14, 2009, 7:35 PM> > > > > > > > > Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,> I am happy to know that you are

both searching for the truth and honesty.So am I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect patience from both of you.> I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr. Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do not look at me with suspicion.> But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals are seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas say,when we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan which we know is tropical.> Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now agreee to compromise so we reach the total

truth, remmeber the total truth not pratial truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.> What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says 'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then

we had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar sankranti.The uttarayan tithi> was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days backwards.We are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again expired since poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the sidereal uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the midddle of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon zone.Oce full moon backwards.> So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan from makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its original effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra but to coordinate the dual nature of the tropical

and sidereal calendar which is the vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made by Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should understand that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at the time of vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas earlier.> Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and enquire if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i have observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,> Sincerely yurs,> Hari malla>

[Guest guest]

Dear members,

 

Now Mr. Harimalla has admitted that he does not care for endorsement from the

shastras. Better if he stops his anti-shastriya blabberings early.

 

He does not want to admit that the Tropical month " TAPA' is now starting with

the Sidereal month  " PAUSHA " and the 5-year Yuga cycle i already being

maintained in the Sidereal calendar.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, harimalla <harimalla wrote:

 

 

harimalla <harimalla

Re:

Rashi_Vedic_Literature_Chronology_Sidereal_Calendar

 

Monday, June 15, 2009, 9:30 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Bhattacharjyaji,

I wanted to reply to your other mail only tomorrow. But now since you have also

touched upon this mail, I will answer now only.

1.Equal to apta vakya is also logic and ganit.So do not think quotation of the

shastras is the only type of proof. I have amply given my reasons in the context

only. When you have to use your logic, you never sseem to digest that and only

like to refer to quotes.The scriptures cannot afford to quote every thing in

life, as you would want to, so that you may never have to use your own brain or

mathematics. I have given my reasons why ayanamsa should not increase more than

15 degrees.It is due to the 15 degrees relationship between the sankranti and

the full moon zone.

2.Now the only way to save the scriptures is by changing the names of the

stars.In the past they did not have to change the names of the stars, because

they were using the rashis for the first time.They did not change the names of

the nakshyatra because they could esasily change the 15 days of tithi from

maagha sukla pratipada of vedanga jyotish to Poush purnima of sidhanta jyotish

by only changing the system from amanta to purnimanta lunar month, keeping the

names of the nakshyatras as of old.But now all the artifices having been

exhausted, changing the names of the stars by 30 degrees is the only way to save

the shastras both jyotish and dharma shastras..

The corresponding nakshyatras and the rashis in my proposal are going to be the

same. There is gong to be no change between the rashis and the nakshyatras in

the relative sense, since both the rashis and the nakshyatras are going to shift

by 30 degrees together as per the sayan system, during calendar reform.The

future makar rashis will also have the same nakshyatras as you have mentioned.

 

3.Having known some basics,I have no problem in saying so to satisfy the phalit

people.Because what I say is true from the phalit point of view also.I do not

want to disturb phalit astrology, thus i thinkit is good to give them the

freedom to select whether they want to go by the new epochal rashis aor the

oldrashis as theyn are udsed to. but i feel the new once will be more

accurate,the new ayanamsa being only 6 degrees instead of the present 24

degrees.Common sese says the lesser the ayanamsa the better the accuracy, the

best being when the two sankrantis being at the sme point as in the beginning,

say around 285 AD.

My disbelieve in astrology is partial.But in the basics of the sun, the moon and

the earth forces effecting us it is also my own theory which I can

scientifically prove perhaps, much better than any phalit people can.

Because the sayan lagan is the first fact and the lunar rashis being out of

sequence with the sayan lagan,the discrepancy is easisly proved due to the

vishuvat now being in two different fullmoon zones.Dharma shastras equal

fullmoon zones with the sankrantis.This can easily be proved by mathematics as

the value of ayanamsa is well known and also th fluctuatuion of the fullmoon

with the sankrantis is ony 15 days.

 

4.The sidereal calendar appears to be independant for the general men. But the

careful persons will know that, this independace also has a limit and that limit

is 15 degrees of ayanamsa.This limit is set by the coordination of the sun and

the moon by the adhimas.If ayanamsa is increased more than 15 degrees, then the

purpose of adhimas is violated, which is the fundamental basis of our soli-lunar

calendar.

If we go by your assumption of the full independance, then in 12000 years,the

sayan uttrayan and the nirayan uttrayan of makar sankranti will be six months

apart, which is a absurd situation.So please give up your adamance.

Remember, what Rabindra nath Tagore has said in the Gitanjali,'Where the clear

stream of reason has not lost its way in the dry sand of dead habit, into that

heaven of freedom,my lord, let my country awake'.So to do him honoour, please

give up your illogical dead habit of total or unlimited nirayaness.The nirayan

system is limited by the full moon zone.This is proven by the vedanga jyotish

and the past reformations done by Barahamihir and others.

Anyway thank you for taking the interest.

Regards,

Hari Malla

 

Read and enjoy another stupid mail frm hari malla

 

tho i dont read it fully to save my valuable time

 

i hope sunil bhattacharya ji will stop responding him

 

sunil nair

 

any way i am approving this mail

 

ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

>

> Dear Members,

>  

> 1)

>  

> Mr. Harimalla has written as follows:

>  

> Quote

>  

> Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15 degrees, to keep up the accuracy of

our astrological system as laid down by the sages.

>  

> UNquote

>  

> Where is the reference from the Shastras as to which sage said what and where

and when.?

>  

> 2)

> Nobody in the history of Hindu calendar had ever changed the fixed stars of

the Rashis uptill this day. Makar Rashi had always had  3 padas of Uttarashadha,

4 padas of Shravana and 2 padas of Dhanistha and it will always remain so.

Nobody can change the composition of the Rashis.

>  

> 3)

> Mr. Harimalla had declared that he does not believe in astrology. Then what

knowledge and right he has to say what is required for astrology?

>  

> 4)

> Sidereal calendar has follow its own principles of linking up with the fixed

Nakshatras and it is independent of the effects of precession. The Tropical

calendar is dependent on precession and therefore the Tropical " Tapa " month can

be dragged behind by one month as it is related to the Winter Solstice and

nothing else needs to be done. If people like Harimalla think that it is a must

then let these people  call the Sidereal Lunar Pausha month as equivalent to the

Tropical Pausha month. Mind that this  can only solve the adamance of these

people. We cannot allow to them to temper with the Vedic Sidereal months which

are associated with fixed Nakshatras.

>  

> Regards,

>  

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Mon, 6/15/09, harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..> wrote:

>

>

> harimalla@.. . <harimalla@. ..>

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Rashi_Vedic_ Literature_ Chronology_

Sidereal_ Calendar

> ancient_indian_ astrology

> Monday, June 15, 2009, 5:03 AM

>

>

Dear Manoj Chandranji,

> Thank you for the quories.

> 1 and 2. The issue in question is that, the astrology practised today is not

as laid down by the ancient sages.The ancient sages laid down the principles

that the sun and the mooon are to be coordinated as the basis of our astrology

and calendar.Thus the system of celebrating the adhimas every third year for the

purpose of coordinating the two types of months- solar and the lunar.We all know

that the adhimas is of one month.Thus this method can adjust for a difference of

one month only for the solar and the lunar seasons.Now since the difference has

gone upto 39 days, the priciples of seasonal difference as laid down by our

ancestors has already ben violated.This violation is due to the fact that

ayanamsa has risen to 24 degrees.Ayanamsa should in no way rise above 15

degrees, to keep up the accuracy of our astrological system as laid down by the

sages.

> People are not able to catch the problem and of course without knowing the

problem they are in no mood to amend the situation.

>

> 3.This requires the realignment of our calendar so the solar and the lunar

seasons do not cross the intended limit.The solution is the shifting of one

fullmonth of both the solar and the lunar months to catch up with the seasonal

sankranti.This discussion is on the very basis of our system and of utmost

importance.But many people would not like to admit the problem itself.Thus they

make all excuses to avoid the amendments.Perhaps they feel,in doing so,their

clients will lose faith in astrology itself as they are over believing in the

prediction they make.But the careful analysis of the problem shows the basis has

been violated by the excessive ayanamsa and reformation is necessary.The sooner

it is done the better.

>

> 4.After the reform, the quality of prediction will surely be brought back to

the original accuracy.You must be knowing the predictions are done on the basis

of both the lagan rashi and the lunar rashi. Now due to excessive ayanamsa, the

coordination of the lagan and lunar positons are no more coordinated. This

disruption of coordination must be restored for the system to work.Of course the

less the ayanamsa the better the accuracy of prediction.But due to our nirayan

system a difference of 15 degrees is allowable due to the 15 days fluctuation of

the fullmoon and sankranti.But 24 degrees ayanamsa violates the basics

principles of seasonal coordination of the sun and the moon i.e. fullmoon and

sankrantis.

> I hope I have clarified your quories, to some extent.Thank you once again.

> Regards,

> Hari Malla

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran

<chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Hari Malla Ji,

> >

> > Most of us have been silently observing this seemingly never ending

discussion. If this discussion is going to continue like this, for the sake of

courtesy to all the people in the list, I kindly request that you please post a

concise email clearly mentioning the following points:

> >

> > 1. What is the issue in question?

> > 2.Why is this issue important for ancient_vedic_ astrology?

> > 3. What is the final conclusion that you hope to obtain from these

discussions?

> > 4. After every thing is said and done, will the final conclusion improve the

quality of prediction?

> >  

> > Please bear in mind that most of  us joined this group to discuss Ancient

Indian astrology. We did not join this to answer the question : Is Indian

Astrology Ancient?

> >  

> > Regards,

> >  

> > -Manoj

> >  

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > " harimalla@ .. " <harimalla@ ..>

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> > Sunday, June 14, 2009 7:35:39 PM

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Rashi_Vedic_ Literature_

Chronology_ Sidereal_ Calendar

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear dual Suniljis(Nair and Bhattacharjya) ,

> > I am happy to know that you are both searching for the truth and honesty.So

am I. So let us have a litle patience and try to undersatnd what each of us are

trying to say.There is no harm in searching for the truth.This time I expect

patience from both of you.

> > I am in full agreement with Bhattacharjyaji when he says our Puranas have

mentioned our calender as soli-lunar sidereal.This I accept.Thank you Mr.

Bhattacharjyaji for saying so. This is my belief too. I not only undesstand that

but also want it to go on this way in the future after reformation. So please do

not look at me with suspicion.

> > But things do not end there.what Mr. Kaul says that the months and festivals

are seasonal is also true.You should also agreee that.Because the puranas

say,when we celebrate sidereal makar sankranti, we celebrate it as uttrayan

which we know is tropical.

> > Thus both of you are partially right.Be sure of that.You should both now

agreee to compromise so we reach the total truth, remmeber the total truth not

pratial truths over which both you and Mr. Kaul have been disputing.

> > What is the total truth? The total truth is that the lunar tithi are both

tropical as well as sidereal, at the same time.Vedanga jyotish says so.It says

'month of maagha( sidereal lunar month since the full moon is connected to

maghaa nakshyatra), Tapa sukla{pakshya) which is tropical lunar month, and

uttrayan start together, when the sun and the moon are in dhanistha'. Please try

to understand how it can be so.Bhattachrjya thinks this occurred only once in

history and I have been trying to tell him this was not just once or one year

but for the whole period of 1700 years, when Vedanga jyotish was effective.why

did it lose its effectiveness after about 1700 years after which reformation was

needed? It lost its effectivenes because the condition of both the sidereal and

the tropical value of the tithi of maagha sukla pratipada was no more.Then we

had to shift the nirayan uttrayan from the sun in dhanistha to the sun in makar

sankranti.The uttarayan

> tithi

> > was shifted from maagha sukla pratipada to Poush purnima 15 days

backwards..We are still celebrating these dates even now when the date has again

expired since poush purnima never meets both the tropical uttrayan and the

sidereal uttrayan.Now only the sidereal uttarayan( makar sankranti) falls at the

midddle of the poush purnima zone but the tropical uttrayan does not fall in its

fluctuation zone within three years of adhikmas fluctuation. The tropical

uttrayan has now shfted its positon due to ayanamsa to mrigashira full moon

zone.Oce full moon backwards.

> > So like Barahmihir and others we also have to shift the nirayan uttrayan

from makar sankranti to dhanu sankranti again to bring the calendar to its

original effectiveness. There is no alternative to save our dharma and shastra

but to coordinate the dual nature of the tropical and sidereal calendar which is

the vedic way as demonstrated by vedanga jyotish and also the reformation made

by Barahmihir and others when the present ayanamsa was zero. We should

understand that the if we take the reference of zero ayanamsa, the ayanamsa at

the time of vedanga jytish formtaion was bout - 23 degrees being seven padas

earlier.

> > Thank you for your patience. please concentrate on what i have said and

enquire if it is still not clear, which i am sure you still have doubts as i

have observed many times in th epast discussions. Thaking you ,I remain,

> > Sincerely yurs,

> > Hari malla

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjyaji,

There seems to have been some misunderstanding about my mentioning of the 88

constellations. So let me clarify. These constellations are the modern

categorisation of the scientists and not of the scriptures.The modern

categorisation of the whole sky from north pole to south pole is done in this

fashion.Out of this total 88 contellations the 12 rashis of old are mentioned as

only 12 of these same constellations.

As in our astrology we have only these 12 to consider, we are forgetting the

remaining 76 constellations, for our astrological purposes.From this fact it can

be concluded that if the stars or the constellations effected us directly then,

we would have taken all the 88 constellations not only 12 which fall only on

the path of the sun and the moon. this proves that the stars do not efect us

directly.From this new angle if you study my mail you will surely understand

what I am trying to convey.

Your friends seem to equate me with Mr. Kaul, which is baseless, since our

opinions are different.He is not in favour of the rashi and the nirayan

system.But i am in favour of keeping up the rashis and the nirayan system, since

it is now part of our culture, even if it may not have been so during the

vedanga jyotish period.I agree that the rashis have been much deeply part of our

culture and we cannot throw it away now.My belief is that we can do calendear

reform without throwing away the rashis.Thus my proposal for readjustment of the

months the vedic way, as was done before.

The fact that in astrology we take ony 12 out of 88 contellations, paves us the

path to rename the 12 rashis (and the 27 nakshyatras).I do not want to

dissociate the rashis and the nakshyatra.I believe they must be kept as

intergral part.Aswini, Bharini and first pada of krittika must continue to be

mesh even after the reform.

Thank you for your reconsideration.I am available to give further clarifications

if needed.

Regards.

HAri Malla