[VRI] FW: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

[Guest guest]

Kaulji,

 

1)

Kaulji wrote as follows:

 

Quote

 

Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt. But then you never know, maybe "modern Vedic astrologers" have seen the "paroskhya meaning" of "paroskhya rashi" based "parokshya predictions" which people like me cannot.

 

Unquote

 

Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings.

 

2)

The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that of animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would have any alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky?

 

3)

"Bha-chakra" is "Nakshatra-chkra". Now how can Avtarji say that "Bha-chakra" is the same as the "Mriga-chakra"? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

[--- On Sun, 6/21/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

jyotirved <jyotirved[VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.hinducalendar Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 5:55 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com] Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:43 PM'abhinavagupta'Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Shri Sarvesh Tiwariji,

Namaskar!

You have said, <One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac, predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s: apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAHuchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM chatathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya(udyoga parvan) > 1. Pl. give the exact reference in the Udyoga Parvan so that one could check the context of the topic. 2. Is this the only (isolated) reference of Rashis in the Mbh(according to you and not actually!) or do you have other references as well. 3. It maybe of interest to you that in ancient India bha-chakra did not necessarily mean Rashichakra but nakshatra-chakra as well. As such, how can one be sure that it is not nakshatra-chakra that is being discussed under the title "mrigachakra". 4. Zodiac is an "imaginary belt" with "imaginary animals" none of which is equal to one another. Those animals were known as constellations and became known as Mesha etc. rashis later. They are actually of Greek origin, whereas nakshatras are of Indian origin. 5. If we take only naksahtras into consideration, presuming that mrigachakra means nakshatra-shakra, forgetting the rashis for a moment, what would that nakshatra-chakra be known as, if not “Zodiac� 5. Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt. But then you never know, maybe "modern Vedic astrologers" have seen the "paroskhya meaning" of "paroskhya rashi" based "parokshya predictions" which people like me cannot. Regards, A K Kaul [Reply to Sarwesh Tiwari’s post (20 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5181 Abhinavagupta, Sarvesh Tiwari wrote: namaste One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac, predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s: apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAHuchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM chatathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya(udyoga parvan) notice the usage of the term "mR^igachakra" which would be the literal meaning of "Zodiac". Also notice that the reference talks of brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s predicting the imminent victory for the pANDava-s and rout of the kaurava-s on basis of the muhUrta, relative positions of nakShatra-s

etc. It also mentions, at least in a third person testimony, of the faith people might already have in this field when these lines were written -- here it says that 'with such prediction yudhiShThira was already considering his objectives met.' While I concur that there is nothing vedic about predictive astrology, I am of the opinion that this business is fairly old, not a total import by Hindus too, and giving too much credit to greek influence is similar to the earlier case of other fields too like the medicine, chemistry, bIjagaNita and philosophy. Warm RegardsSarvesh Tiwari[Reply to Koenraad Elst's post (19 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5178]

[Guest guest]

--- On Tue, 23/6/09, Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra wrote:

 

 

Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra

Re: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Tuesday, 23 June, 2009, 1:16 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected Sunil Sir,

 

You have said as below :-

 

Quote

 

To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only.

 

Unquote

 

Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in

existence

due to those animal shapes generated by cluster of stars.

 

Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will

decide which animal will represent which Rashi.

 

Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of

Aries.

 

Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to thoe

animals.

 

Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those.

 

By the way by those stars(by which GREEKS have made animals), i can also

make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs),

machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey.

 

Dinesh Dheengara

 

--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

 

 

sunil_bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and

the Vedanga Jyotisha.

vedic_research_institute

Cc: , ,

vedic-jyotish

Monday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kaulji,

 

1)

Kaulji wrote as follows:

 

Quote

 

Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

 

Unquote

 

Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot

understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha

meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret

meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka

Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings.

 

2)

The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that of

animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical

observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the

different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would  have any

alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky?

 

3)

" Bha-chakra " is " Nakshatra-chkra " . Now how can Avtarji say that " Bha-chakra " is

the same as the " Mriga-chakra " ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been

ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay

Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this..

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

[--- On Sun, 6/21/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

[VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga

Jyotisha.

hinducalendar

Sunday, June 21, 2009, 5:55 AM

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:43 PM

'abhinavagupta'

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Shri Sarvesh Tiwariji,

Namaskar!

You have said,

 

<One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac,

predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s:

 apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA

bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH

sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA

nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAH

uchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM

divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA

kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM

nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM cha

tathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H

sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya

(udyoga parvan) >

 

1. Pl. give the exact reference in the Udyoga Parvan so that one could check the

context of the topic.

2. Is this the only (isolated) reference of Rashis in the Mbh(according to you

and not actually!) or do you have other references as well.

3. It maybe of interest to you that in ancient India bha-chakra did not

necessarily mean Rashichakra but nakshatra-chakra as well.  As such, how can

one be sure that it is not nakshatra-chakra that is being discussed under the

title " mrigachakra " .

4. Zodiac is an " imaginary belt " with " imaginary animals " none of which is equal

to one another.  Those animals were known as constellations and became known as

Mesha etc. rashis later.  They are actually of Greek origin, whereas nakshatras

are of Indian origin..

5. If we take only naksahtras into consideration, presuming that mrigachakra

means nakshatra-shakra, forgetting the rashis for a moment, what would that

nakshatra-chakra be known as, if not “Zodiac�

5. Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

Regards,

A K Kaul

[Reply to Sarwesh Tiwari’s post (20 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5181

 

Abhinavagupta, Sarvesh Tiwari wrote:

 

namaste

 

One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac,

predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s:

 

apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA

bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH

sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA

nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAH

uchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM

divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA

kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM

nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM cha

tathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H

sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya

(udyoga parvan) 

 

notice the usage of the term " mR^igachakra " which would be the literal meaning

of " Zodiac " .  Also notice that the reference talks of brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s

predicting the imminent victory for the pANDava-s and rout of the kaurava-s on

basis of the muhUrta, relative positions of nakShatra-s etc.  It

also mentions, at least in a third person testimony, of the faith people might

already have in this field when these lines were written -- here it says

that 'with such prediction yudhiShThira was already considering his objectives

met.'

 

While I concur that there is nothing vedic about predictive astrology, I am of

the opinion that this business is fairly old, not a total import by

Hindus too, and giving too much credit to greek influence is similar to the

earlier case of other fields too like the medicine, chemistry, bIjagaNita and

philosophy.

 

Warm Regards

Sarvesh Tiwari

 

[Reply to Koenraad Elst's post (19 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5178]

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Respected Sunil Sir,

 

You have said as below :-

 

Quote

 

To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only.

 

Unquote

 

Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in

existence

due to those animal shapes generated by cluster of shapes.

 

Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will

decide which animal will represent which Rashi.

 

Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of

Aries.

 

Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to thoe

animals.

 

Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those.

 

By the way by those stars(by which we have made animals), i can also

make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs),

machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey.

 

Dinesh Dheengara

 

--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

 

 

sunil_bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and

the Vedanga Jyotisha.

vedic_research_institute

Cc: , ,

vedic-jyotish

Monday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kaulji,

 

1)

Kaulji wrote as follows:

 

Quote

 

Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

 

Unquote

 

Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot

understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha

meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret

meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka

Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings.

 

2)

The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that of

animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical

observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the

different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would  have any

alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky?

 

3)

" Bha-chakra " is " Nakshatra-chkra " . Now how can Avtarji say that " Bha-chakra " is

the same as the " Mriga-chakra " ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been

ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay

Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

[--- On Sun, 6/21/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

[VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga

Jyotisha.

hinducalendar

Sunday, June 21, 2009, 5:55 AM

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:43 PM

'abhinavagupta'

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Shri Sarvesh Tiwariji,

Namaskar!

You have said,

 

<One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac,

predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s:

 apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA

bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH

sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA

nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAH

uchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM

divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA

kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM

nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM cha

tathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H

sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya

(udyoga parvan) >

 

1. Pl. give the exact reference in the Udyoga Parvan so that one could check the

context of the topic.

2. Is this the only (isolated) reference of Rashis in the Mbh(according to you

and not actually!) or do you have other references as well.

3. It maybe of interest to you that in ancient India bha-chakra did not

necessarily mean Rashichakra but nakshatra-chakra as well.  As such, how can

one be sure that it is not nakshatra-chakra that is being discussed under the

title " mrigachakra " .

4. Zodiac is an " imaginary belt " with " imaginary animals " none of which is equal

to one another.  Those animals were known as constellations and became known as

Mesha etc. rashis later.  They are actually of Greek origin, whereas nakshatras

are of Indian origin.

5. If we take only naksahtras into consideration, presuming that mrigachakra

means nakshatra-shakra, forgetting the rashis for a moment, what would that

nakshatra-chakra be known as, if not “Zodiac�

5. Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

Regards,

A K Kaul

[Reply to Sarwesh Tiwari’s post (20 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5181

 

Abhinavagupta, Sarvesh Tiwari wrote:

 

namaste

 

One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac,

predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s:

 

apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA

bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH

sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA

nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAH

uchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM

divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA

kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM

nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM cha

tathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H

sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya

(udyoga parvan) 

 

notice the usage of the term " mR^igachakra " which would be the literal meaning

of " Zodiac " .  Also notice that the reference talks of brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s

predicting the imminent victory for the pANDava-s and rout of the kaurava-s on

basis of the muhUrta, relative positions of nakShatra-s etc.  It

also mentions, at least in a third person testimony, of the faith people might

already have in this field when these lines were written -- here it says

that 'with such prediction yudhiShThira was already considering his objectives

met.'

 

While I concur that there is nothing vedic about predictive astrology, I am of

the opinion that this business is fairly old, not a total import by

Hindus too, and giving too much credit to greek influence is similar to the

earlier case of other fields too like the medicine, chemistry, bIjagaNita and

philosophy.

 

Warm Regards

Sarvesh Tiwari

 

[Reply to Koenraad Elst's post (19 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5178]

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Dinesh Dheengra,

 

The main purpose of this thread is  to clarify that the Indians knew Astrology

long before the Greeks knew. That is why I have showed about the mention of the

Rashis in Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha as well as in the Puranas. According to

the Veda itself the Veda has both Pratyaksha and Paroksha meanings. Some

anti-Hindu people  do not believe that the Veda can have Paroksha meaning and

they even ridicule this idea thereby they ridicule the Veda itsef, because 

the Brhadaranyak Upanishad very clearly states that. Vedanga Jyotisha

also mentioned Rashi and I have shown that.  Till the British ruled India ie.

till upto the middle of the twentieth century there was very little opposition

to Prof. Max Muller's Aryan Invasion theory (AIT). After proposing AIT, prof

Max Muller also proposed a chronology of Ancient Indian History, according to

which the Vedas were written after 14th century BCE and they have also lowered

the antiquity of the

Mahabharata and the Puranas. Taking advantage of that chronology David

Pingree  proposed that the Indians learnt Jyotish from the Babylonia and

Greeks. Some anti-Hindu Greekofiles like Kaul and his group follow what Pingree

said, as if that is the Gospel truth. They are fighting tooth and nail to see

that everybody must accept what Pingree said. But with the discovery of the

river Saraswati, and fresh evaluation of some of the papers of the British

officers like William Jones and also due to other recent archaeological

findings, we now know definitely how those people during  the British rule in

India manipulated the ancient Indian Chronology. Now we know that the

Mahabharata war did take place when the river Saraswati was flowing, ie about

5000 years ago. That is also confirmed by the continuing unbroken Saptarshi

calendar, which started in 3077 BCE. Now we know that Astrology was used by the

Indians in the Mahabharata days ie. more that 5000

years ago and the Indians have not learnt astrology from the Greeks. Because of

belief in the AIT some Indian scholars tried to temper with the Vedanga Jyotisha

but luckily the text survived till this day.

 

What the Rashis are  and how they are related to the Nakshatras and which fact

makes then Sidereal, have already been given in the quotes from the Puranas I

have already given by me.

 

You have asked some questions such as (1) why the Rashis are equal divisions of

30 degrees, (2) what is the purpose of naming the Rashis after the shapes

animals, (3) what is the starting point of a Rashi and (4) why Ophicus was

ignored. Then you said that by those stars  you can also make donkey and

Machaina Saanp )snalke which live in gutter), khatmal(bedbugs), Macchar

(mosquito) and even your cute monkey. Let me remind you that you have forgotten

to add as to why the Nakshatras are equal divisions of 13 degrees and 20

minutes.

 

Your questions on the RshiS and their shapes etc. are beside the main purpose of

this thread based on the historical criteria. From that angle in fact I should

have advised you to open a separate thread to discuss your those points. It

appears that you have got some information but that is not sufficient to

understand the Indian Jyotish shastra. For explaining the first three of your

questions  I shall have to tell you about a Vedic verse and I am sure that you

if you are a Kaulian you will be put off by that as the Kaulians do agree to

what the Brhadaranyak says about the interpretation of the Vedic

verses. Secondly you will have to accept the concept of  Yoga-Tara. So if you

are a Kaulian then my explanation will  go over your head and will be of no

use to you.  As regards the Ophiuchius you will have also to ask why Claudius

Ptolemy in the 2nd century CE also did not include it in the Zodiac, though he

included in his catalogue of stars.

As regards you critical observation that you can see so many other animals

including your pet monkey on the ecliptic I would advise you to publish

a publish a book on that and send that to Mr. Kaul for reviewing.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra wrote:

 

 

Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra

Re: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 6:16 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected Sunil Sir,

 

You have said as below :-

 

Quote

 

To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only.

 

Unquote

 

Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in

existence

due to those animal shapes generated by cluster of shapes.

 

Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will

decide which animal will represent which Rashi.

 

Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of

Aries.

 

Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to thoe

animals.

 

Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those.

 

By the way by those stars(by which we have made animals), i can also

make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs),

machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey.

 

Dinesh Dheengara

 

--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya

@> wrote:

 

sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and

the Vedanga Jyotisha.

vedic_research_ institute

Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, ,

vedic-jyotish

Monday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23 AM

 

 

Kaulji,

 

1)

Kaulji wrote as follows:

 

Quote

 

Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

 

Unquote

 

Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot

understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha

meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret

meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka

Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings.

 

2)

The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that of

animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical

observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the

different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would  have any

alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky?

 

3)

" Bha-chakra " is " Nakshatra-chkra " . Now how can Avtarji say that " Bha-chakra " is

the same as the " Mriga-chakra " ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been

ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay

Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

[--- On Sun, 6/21/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

[VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga

Jyotisha.

hinducalendar

Sunday, June 21, 2009, 5:55 AM

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:43 PM

'abhinavagupta'

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Shri Sarvesh Tiwariji,

Namaskar!

You have said,

 

<One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac,

predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s:

 apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA

bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH

sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA

nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAH

uchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM

divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA

kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM

nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM cha

tathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H

sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya

(udyoga parvan) >

 

1. Pl. give the exact reference in the Udyoga Parvan so that one could check the

context of the topic.

2. Is this the only (isolated) reference of Rashis in the Mbh(according to you

and not actually!) or do you have other references as well.

3. It maybe of interest to you that in ancient India bha-chakra did not

necessarily mean Rashichakra but nakshatra-chakra as well.  As such, how can

one be sure that it is not nakshatra-chakra that is being discussed under the

title " mrigachakra " .

4. Zodiac is an " imaginary belt " with " imaginary animals " none of which is equal

to one another.  Those animals were known as constellations and became known as

Mesha etc. rashis later.  They are actually of Greek origin, whereas nakshatras

are of Indian origin.

5. If we take only naksahtras into consideration, presuming that mrigachakra

means nakshatra-shakra, forgetting the rashis for a moment, what would that

nakshatra-chakra be known as, if not “Zodiac�

5. Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

Regards,

A K Kaul

[Reply to Sarwesh Tiwari’s post (20 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5181

 

Abhinavagupta, Sarvesh Tiwari wrote:

 

namaste

 

One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac,

predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s:

 

apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA

bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH

sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA

nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAH

uchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM

divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA

kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM

nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM cha

tathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H

sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya

(udyoga parvan) 

 

notice the usage of the term " mR^igachakra " which would be the literal meaning

of " Zodiac " .  Also notice that the reference talks of brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s

predicting the imminent victory for the pANDava-s and rout of the kaurava-s on

basis of the muhUrta, relative positions of nakShatra-s etc.  It

also mentions, at least in a third person testimony, of the faith people might

already have in this field when these lines were written -- here it says

that 'with such prediction yudhiShThira was already considering his objectives

met.'

 

While I concur that there is nothing vedic about predictive astrology, I am of

the opinion that this business is fairly old, not a total import by

Hindus too, and giving too much credit to greek influence is similar to the

earlier case of other fields too like the medicine, chemistry, bIjagaNita and

philosophy.

 

Warm Regards

Sarvesh Tiwari

 

[Reply to Koenraad Elst's post (19 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5178]