References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

[Guest guest]

Have you ever tried to analyse that what type of Rashis were mentioned in those

 

Those were seasonal means tropical

 

Go and read and also let all ppl know

 

But pls dont be happy that in purans rashis are there those works are only 2000

yrs old

 

now pls dont edorse your view with saptarishi calendar which is based on Dhruva

tara and Dhruva tara can't be fixed all time at north pole

 

 

, sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

>

>  

> Dear Shri Ujjagar Singhji and the learned Vedic scholars

>  

> Kindly look at the following:

>  

>  Quote

>  

> To impute ignorance of knowledge of puranas to all these scholars shows the

intentions of “Vedic astrologersâ€---they are none too honest!

>  

> Unquote

>  

> I think the scholars like S.B.Dixit, T.S.Kupunna Sastry, Meghnad Saha,

S.K.Chatterjee and .K.Bag  are honest persons and not hypocrites. If they

would have read the Puranas they would have definitely found the Rashis

mentioned there and would not have said that the Rashis are not there in the

Vedic loiterature. Chandogya and Brhadaranyaka Upanishads call the Puranas as

the Fifth Veda. The Mahabharata tells us that there is an injunction that one

must read the Puranas before reading the Vedas. Now in the light of this kindly

also judge for yourself whether these scholars have read the Vedas or not. I am

not casting any aspersions on these scholars. I am telling what the logical

conclusion anybody can draw with an objective frame of mind. If there is any

fault in the logic kindly do not hesitate to point that out and I shall be

grateful to you for that.

>  

> Previously I submitted several references from the Veda and Vedanga jyotisha

on the presence of Rashi in these texts. In addition, now I wish to to submit

additional references from the Vamana purana (5. 29 - 43), where Pulastya told

Narada about the fixed Nakshatras included in each of the Rashis such as

Mesha thereby proclaiming that the Rashis are Sidereal and not Tropical. Had

the scholars like Dixit read the  Upanishads they would have fdefinitely ound

that in the Chandogya Upanishad (7. 1 - 3) Narada told Sanatkumara that

he knew the Nakshatra Vidya (Astronomy) and the Rashi Vidya (Astrology). 

>  

> In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told Arjuna that among the month He is the

Margashirsha. In the Vamana Purana  the sage Sanatkumara tells about the

Lunar months corresponding to the Sun's position in different Rashis thereby

showing that sidereal Soli-Lunar calendar is the real Vedic calendar. He says

how the lunar month Margashirsha is related to the Sun's position in the Vrscika

Rashi.

>  

> vÄkÄraṃ nÄbhisaṃyuktaṃ sthitastatra tu vṛścikaḥ |

> mÄso mÄrgaÅ›iro nÄma tvaṣṭamaṃ patrakaṃ smá¹›tam || 35.61 ||

>  

> In the Vedic time the seasons were also recognised as Lord Krishna

tells Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita that among the Ritus he is the Kusumakara,

ie. the Vasanta Ritu. Vasanta Ritu includes the seasonal months of Madhu and

Madhava.  These seasonal months were required for the purpose of agriculture

as well as for the seasonal festivals and they go on changing

their occurrences in the Nakashatras due to precession of the Earth. 

>  

> I have submitted to you in this as well as in the earlier mails that the

Rashis are there in the ancient Vedic literature and that these have not been

imported from the Babylonia as David Pingree and subsequently the many other

ill-informed persons would like you to believe. Secondly the Vedic calendar is

Sidereal and not Tropical and the Tropical months are recognised but their

positions with respect to the fixed Nakshatras will go on changing due to the

Precession of the earth.

>  

> Regards,

>  

> Sunil K. BHattacharjya

>  

>  

>  

>

> --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Avtar <Avtar wrote:

>

>

> Avtar <Avtar

> [Abhinavagupta] FW: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the

Vedanga Jyotisha.

> abhinavagupta

> Sunday, June 14, 2009, 2:30 AM

>

>

>

>

 

>  

>

>

> jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

> Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:55 PM

> 'uswassan '

> Cc: 'subash razdan'; 'soham '; 'hinducalendar';

'hinducivilization'; 'usbrahmins';

'indian_astrology_ group_daily_ digest@grou ps.com'; 'indiaarchaeology@

. com'

> References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

>  

>  

>

>

>

> Shri Ujjagar Singh Wassanji,

> Namaskar!

> Shri Subhash Razdan has sent me copy of your following message, “May be

somebody should compile all the contemporary comments and have a discussion at

meeting. It is too important a topic to let it go waste. Interested please

cooperateâ€.

>  

> Since I have d from WAVES-Vedic,  I am unable to post any comment

on that forum.  However, I am sure you have heard the famous saying, “all

that glitters is not goldâ€.

> All I can say is that Vedic mantras are being twisted to prove the existence

of non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis in the Vedas which would put to shame

even Satan himself.  To say that Agastya is known as Kumbhaja because he was

born in so called Kumbha Rashi is the real joke of the last several millennia! 

> Similarly, if someone says, “It is evident that the scholars like S.B.Dixit,

T.S.Kupunna Sastry, Meghnad Saha, S.K.Chatterjee and A.K. Bag had unfortunately

not read the Bhagavata purana and the Vedas and therefore they have not seen the

references to the Rashis in these texts. Their knowledge of the ancient Indian

chronology was also limited to that of the Max Mullerian chronology†he is

again making such insinuations that can be digested only by “Vedic

astrologers†and their clans, since none of them has read any of the works by

Dixit of Sastry etc. himself!  To impute ignorance of knowledge of puranas to

all these scholars shows the intentions of “Vedic astrologersâ€---they are

none too honest!

> Talking of Rashis in the Bhagavata and other Puranas it has been discussed by

me thoroughly in one of the posts (BVB6.doc) several times on the WAVES and

other forums!   It is actually a copy of a letter that was sent to all the

branches of Bharatiya Vidya Bhvan several years back!  The rashis that we come

across in Puranas and sidhantas etc. are actually so called Sayana i.e. if at

all there has to be a Makar Sankranti, it has to be the day of Uttarayana and so

on!  But then that is an anathema to “Vedic astrologers†since their bread

and butter depends only on proving that Makar Sanrkanti is on January14/15 and

so on.

> I was actually myself under the same delusion for a considerable time that the

real Vamadevas had nothing else to do except prepare horoscopes of every Tom,

Dick and Harry from so called nirayana Rashis and their “owners†like

inanimate planets like Mangal, Shani etc.  But thanks to the real Vedic rishis,

I woke to the situation and repudiated all the claims of “Vedic astrologersâ€

that there are Rashis in the Vedas.  Now they have devised devious ways of

interpreting Vedic mantras in a manner that suits their fancy!  Majority of

Hindus being “scholars†of “Vedic astrology†instead of the Vedas fall

easily hook, line and sinker for these ploys of “Vedic jyotishisâ€.

> In any case, a thorough discussion on the points raised by Shri Bhattacharjya

is going on in several other forums like abhinavagupta, vedic-reserach_

institute, indiaarchaeology etc. I have also  started, several years back, a

forum http://groups. / group/HinduCalen dar for streamlining the Hindu

calendar. Posts to that forum are not moderated.  If you so desire, you are

welcome to join that forum.  I am sending you an invitation for the same

separately.

> With regards,

> A K Kaul

>  

>  

> http://groups. / group/WAVES- Vedic/pending? view=1 & msg=5285

> -----Inline Message Follows-----

>

>

>

>

>

> Dear Veda Interested Audience

>

> May be somebody should compile all the contemporary comments and have a

discussion at meeting. It is too important a topic to let it go waste.

Interested please cooperate. Best wishes.

>

> Ujjagar Singh Wassan

>

> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

wrote:

>

>

> Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

> [WAVES-Vedic] Re: [Abhinavagupta] References of Rashis in the Vedaas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha?

> Abhinavagupta

> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ .

com, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute@ .

com, indiaarchaeology, ,

USBrahmins@gro ups.com, waves-vedic

> Thursday, June 11, 2009, 1:37 AM

>

>

Dear friends,

>

>

>  

>

>

> The Rashis are mentioned in the Vedas and Vedanga Jyotisha as shown in my

earlier mail. Rashis are also given in the Bhagavata Purana. As the Vedic

verses are cryptic in nature everybody may not be able  to understand these

verses and this was deliberately made so such

>

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

It appears that you are a supporter of A.K.Kaul. Prove that the the Puranas are

only 2000 years old. You also don't understand Sanskrit and therefore could

not underrstand  the Sanskrit verse I sent in my mail.. Anybody with some

sense will know that the Nakshatras are fixed and the Rashis connected with

the nakshatras are Sidereal. I am sure the learned scholars of the Jyotishgroup

knows this.

 

--- On Mon, 6/15/09, singh_ramveer <singh_ramveer wrote:

 

 

singh_ramveer <singh_ramveer

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga

Jyotisha.

 

Monday, June 15, 2009, 12:47 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you ever tried to analyse that what type of Rashis were mentioned in those

 

Those were seasonal means tropical

 

Go and read and also let all ppl know

 

But pls dont be happy that in purans rashis are there those works are only 2000

yrs old

 

now pls dont edorse your view with saptarishi calendar which is based on Dhruva

tara and Dhruva tara can't be fixed all time at north pole

 

, sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

>

>  

> Dear Shri Ujjagar Singhji and the learned Vedic scholars

>  

> Kindly look at the following:

>  

>  Quote

>  

> To impute ignorance of knowledge of puranas to all these scholars shows the

intentions of “Vedic astrologersâ€---they are none too honest!

>  

> Unquote

>  

> I think the scholars like S.B.Dixit, T.S.Kupunna Sastry, Meghnad Saha,

S.K.Chatterjee and .K.Bag  are honest persons and not hypocrites. If they

would have read the Puranas they would have definitely found the Rashis

mentioned there and would not have said that the Rashis are not there in the

Vedic loiterature. Chandogya and Brhadaranyaka Upanishads call the Puranas as

the Fifth Veda. The Mahabharata tells us that there is an injunction that one

must read the Puranas before reading the Vedas. Now in the light of this kindly

also judge for yourself whether these scholars have read the Vedas or not. I am

not casting any aspersions on these scholars. I am telling what the logical

conclusion anybody can draw with an objective frame of mind. If there is any

fault in the logic kindly do not hesitate to point that out and I shall be

grateful to you for that.

>  

> Previously I submitted several references from the Veda and Vedanga jyotisha

on the presence of Rashi in these texts. In addition, now I wish to to submit

additional references from the Vamana purana (5. 29 - 43), where Pulastya told

Narada about the fixed Nakshatras included in each of the Rashis such as

Mesha thereby proclaiming that the Rashis are Sidereal and not Tropical. Had

the scholars like Dixit read the  Upanishads they would have fdefinitely ound

that in the Chandogya Upanishad (7. 1 - 3) Narada told Sanatkuma ra that

he knew the Nakshatra Vidya (Astronomy) and the Rashi Vidya (Astrology). 

>  

> In the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna told Arjuna that among the month He is the

Margashirsha.  In the Vamana Purana  the sage Sanatkumara tells about the

Lunar months corresponding to the Sun's position in different Rashis thereby

showing that sidereal Soli-Lunar calendar is the real Vedic calendar. He says

how the lunar month Margashirsha is related to the Sun's position in the Vrscika

Rashi.

>  

> vÄkÄraṃ nÄbhisaṃyuktaṃ sthitastatra tu vṛścikaḥ |

> mÄso mÄrgaÅ›iro nÄma tvaṣṭamaṃ patrakaṃ smá¹›tam || 35.61 ||

>  

> In the Vedic time the seasons were also recognised as Lord Krishna

tells Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita that among the Ritus he is the Kusumakara,

ie. the Vasanta Ritu. Vasanta Ritu includes the seasonal months of Madhu and

Madhava.  These seasonal months were required for the purpose of agriculture

as well as for the seasonal festivals and they go on changing

their occurrences in the Nakashatras due to precession of the Earth. 

>  

> I have submitted to you in this as well as in the earlier mails that the

Rashis are there in the ancient Vedic literature and that these have not been

imported from the Babylonia as David Pingree and subsequently the many other

ill-informed persons would like you to believe. Secondly the Vedic calendar is

Sidereal and not Tropical and the Tropical months are recognised but their

positions with respect to the fixed Nakshatras will go on changing due to the

Precession of the earth.

>  

> Regards,

>  

> Sunil K. BHattacharjya

>  

>  

>  

>

> --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Avtar <Avtar wrote:

>

>

> Avtar <Avtar

> [Abhinavagupta] FW: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the

Vedanga Jyotisha.

> abhinavagupta

> Sunday, June 14, 2009, 2:30 AM

>

>

>

>

 

>  

>

>

> jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

> Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:55 PM

> 'uswassan '

> Cc: 'subash razdan'; 'soham '; 'hinducalendar';

'hinducivilization'; 'usbrahmins';

'indian_astrology_ group_daily_ digest@grou ps.com'; 'indiaarchaeology@

. com'

> References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

>  

>  

>

>

>

> Shri Ujjagar Singh Wassanji,

> Namaskar!

> Shri Subhash Razdan has sent me copy of your following message, “May be

somebody should compile all the contemporary comments and have a discussion at

meeting. It is too important a topic to let it go waste. Interested please

cooperateâ€.

>  

> Since I have d from WAVES-Vedic,  I am unable to post any comment

on that forum.  However, I am sure you have heard the famous saying, “all

that glitters is not goldâ€.

> All I can say is that Vedic mantras are being twisted to prove the existence

of non-existent Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis in the Vedas which would put to shame

even Satan himself.  To say that Agastya is known as Kumbhaja because he was

born in so called Kumbha Rashi is the real joke of the last several millennia! 

> Similarly, if someone says, “It is evident that the scholars like S.B.Dixit,

T.S.Kupunna Sastry, Meghnad Saha, S.K.Chatterjee and A.K. Bag had unfortunately

not read the Bhagavata purana and the Vedas and therefore they have not seen the

references to the Rashis in these texts. Their knowledge of the ancient Indian

chronology was also limited to that of the Max Mullerian chronology†he is

again making such insinuations that can be digested only by “Vedic

astrologers†and their clans, since none of them has read any of the works by

Dixit of Sastry etc. himself!  To impute ignorance of knowledge of puranas to

all these scholars shows the intentions of “Vedic astrologersâ€---they are

none too honest!

> Talking of Rashis in the Bhagavata and other Puranas it has been discussed by

me thoroughly in one of the posts (BVB6.doc) several times on the WAVES and

other forums!   It is actually a copy of a letter that was sent to all the

branches of Bharatiya Vidya Bhvan several years back!  The rashis that we come

across in Puranas and sidhantas etc. are actually so called Sayana i.e. if at

all there has to be a Makar Sankranti, it has to be the day of Uttarayana and so

on!  But then that is an anathema to “Vedic astrologers†since their bread

and butter depends only on proving that Makar Sanrkanti is on January14/15 and

so on.

> I was actually myself under the same delusion for a considerable time that the

real Vamadevas had nothing else to do except prepare horoscopes of every Tom,

Dick and Harry from so called nirayana Rashis and their “owners†like

inanimate planets like Mangal, Shani etc.  But thanks to the real Vedic rishis,

I woke to the situation and repudiated all the claims of “Vedic astrologersâ€

that there are Rashis in the Vedas.  Now they have devised devious ways of

interpreting Vedic mantras in a manner that suits their fancy!  Majority of

Hindus being “scholars†of “Vedic astrology†instead of the Vedas fall

easily hook, line and sinker for these ploys of “Vedic jyotishisâ€.

> In any case, a thorough discussion on the points raised by Shri Bhattacharjya

is going on in several other forums like abhinavagupta, vedic-reserach_

institute, indiaarchaeology etc. I have also  started, several years back, a

forum http://groups. / group/HinduCalen dar for streamlining the Hindu

calendar. Posts to that forum are not moderated.  If you so desire, you are

welcome to join that forum.  I am sending you an invitation for the same

separately.

> With regards,

> A K Kaul

>  

>  

> http://groups. / group/WAVES- Vedic/pending? view=1 & msg=5285

> -----Inline Message Follows-----

>

>

>

>

>

> Dear Veda Interested Audience

>

> May be somebody should compile all the contemporary comments and have a

discussion at meeting. It is too important a topic to let it go waste.

Interested please cooperate. Best wishes.

>

> Ujjagar Singh Wassan

>

> --- On Thu, 6/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>

wrote:

>

>

> Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a @>

> [WAVES-Vedic] Re: [Abhinavagupta] References of Rashis in the Vedaas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha?

> Abhinavagupta

> Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, @ .

com, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute@ .

com, indiaarchaeology, ,

USBrahmins@gro ups.com, waves-vedic

> Thursday, June 11, 2009, 1:37 AM

>

>

Dear friends,

>

>

>  

>

>

> The Rashis are mentioned in the Vedas and Vedanga Jyotisha as shown in my

earlier mail. Rashis are also given in the Bhagavata Purana. As the Vedic

verses are cryptic in nature everybody may not be able  to understand these

verses and this was deliberately made so such

>

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaFw: [Abhinavagupta] Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.vedic astrology Cc: , Monday, June 22, 2009, 5:58 PM

 

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Shivraj <Shivraj wrote:

Shivraj <Shivraj[Abhinavagupta] Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.Abhinavagupta Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 4:17 AM

 

 

Kaulji and Francesco ji,> Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:>> 4. Zodiac is an "imaginary belt" with "imaginary animals" > none of which is equal to one another. Those animals were > known as constellations and became known as Mesha etc. > rashis later. They are actually of Greek origin, whereas > nakshatras are of Indian origin.> If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions "sun having twelve spokes in his wheel". This is clearly a twelve fold division of theecliptic. Now are you and Brighenti by any chance making the absurdsuggestion that the rig vedic seers would have waited for1000 years (still assuming the AIT scholars' date of 1400B.C. for Rig Veda), for the arrival of the Alexandrian Greeks to label these twelve divisions of Sun's path through the firmament? Seems illogical doesn't it?[Reply to Avtar's post (21 June 2009) at http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5186]> Francesco Brighenti wrote:>> This appears to me to support (or either not to contradict) the> contention that the zodiac was imported into India from > Irano-Chaldaean sources between the phase of Achaemenid > supremacy over present-day Pakistan and the subsequent advent > of the Greeks following Alexander's invasion of the same> territories.Please read the Rig Vedic Hymn given above. Now please tell usa reference from Irano Chaldean sources of proven provenance which predates RigVeda in referring to a 12 fold division of the ecliptic. If we cannot find one then the thesis that Greeksbrought this "knowledge" into India stands rejected.[Reply to Francesco's post (21 June 2009) at http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5185]

[Guest guest]

--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaFw: [Abhinavagupta] Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.vedic astrology Cc: Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 5:23 PM

 

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 6/22/09, Sarvesh <Sarvesh wrote:

Sarvesh <Sarvesh[Abhinavagupta] Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha."*Abinavagupta" <abhinavagupta >Monday, June 22, 2009, 8:08 AM

 

 

namaste Shri Kaul-jiI refer to the Critical Edition publsihed by Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute Pune. The said lines are found in almost all the known recensions of the bhArata, therefore certainly would be present in the gItA press edition you are referring to, although the chapter numbers might differ. Although you can download the text from various sites on the Internet including from BORI site, for your convenience I append below the text of the 47th section of the fifth book - hoping it is allowed here, and seeking forgiveness in advance if it is against the convention.Warm RegardsSarvesh Tiwari05047001 dhRtarASTra uvAca05047001a pRcchAmi tvAM saMjaya rAjamadhye; kim abravId vAkyam adInasattvaH05047001c dhanaMjayas tAta yudhAM praNetA; durAtmanAM jIvitacchin mahAtmA05047002 saMjaya uvAca05047002a duryodhano vAcam imAM zRNotu; yad abravId arjuno yotsyamAnaH05047002c

yudhiSThirasyAnumat e mahAtmA; dhanaMjayaH zRNvataH kezavasya05047003a anvatrasto bAhuvIryaM vidAna; upahvare vAsudevasya dhIraH05047003c avocan mAM yotsyamAnaH kirITI; madhye brUyA dhArtarASTraM kurUNAm05047004a ye vai rAjAnaH pANDavAyodhanAya; samAnItAH zRNvatAM cApi teSAm05047004c yathA samagraM vacanaM mayoktaM; sahAmAtyaM zrAvayethA nRpaM tam05047005a yathA nUnaM devarAjasya devAH; zuzrUSante vajrahastasya sarve05047005c tathAzRNvan pANDavAH sRJjayAz ca; kirITinA vAcam uktAM samarthAm05047006a ity abravId arjuno yotsyamAno; gANDIvadhanvA lohitapadmanetraH05047006c na ced rAjyaM muJcati dhArtarASTro; yudhiSThirasyAjamID hasya rAjJaH05047006e asti nUnaM karma kRtaM purastAd; anirviSTaM pApakaM dhArtarASTraiH05047007a yeSAM yuddhaM bhImasenArjunAbhyAM ; tathAzvibhyAM vAsudevena caiva05047007c zaineyena dhruvam AttAyudhena; dhRSTadyumnenAtha zikhaNDinA ca05047007e yudhiSThireNendraka lpena caiva; yo

'padhyAnAn nirdahed gAM divaM ca05047008a taiz ced yuddhaM manyate dhArtarASTro; nirvRtto 'rthaH sakalaH pANDavAnAm05047008c mA tat kArSIH pANDavArthAya hetor; upaihi yuddhaM yadi manyase tvam05047009a yAM tAM vane duHkhazayyAm uvAsa; pravrAjitaH pANDavo dharmacArI05047009c AziSyate duHkhatarAm anarthAm; antyAM zayyAM dhArtarASTraH parAsuH05047010a hriyA jJAnena tapasA damena; krodhenAtho dharmaguptyA dhanena05047010c anyAyavRttaH kurupANDaveyAn; adhyAtiSThad dhArtarASTro durAtmA05047011a mAyopadhaH praNidhAnArjavAbhyA M; tapodamAbhyAM dharmaguptyA balena05047011c satyaM bruvan prItiyuktyAnRtena; titikSamANaH klizyamAno 'tivelam05047012a yadA jyeSThaH pANDavaH saMzitAtmA; krodhaM yat taM varSapUgAn sughoram05047012c avasraSTA kuruSUdvRttacetAs; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047013a kRSNavartmeva jvalitaH samiddho; yathA dahet kakSam agnir nidAghe05047013c evaM dagdhA dhArtarASTrasya senAM;

yudhiSThiraH krodhadIpto 'nuvIkSya05047014a yadA draSTA bhImasenaM raNasthaM; gadAhastaM krodhaviSaM vamantam05047014c durmarSaNaM pANDavaM bhImavegaM; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047015a mahAsiMho gAva iva pravizya; gadApANir dhArtarASTrAn upetya05047015c yadA bhImo bhImarUpo nihantA; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047016a mahAbhaye vItabhayaH kRtAstraH; samAgame zatrubalAvamardI05047016c sakRd rathena pratiyAd rathaughAn; padAtisaMghAn gadayAbhinighnan05047017a sainyAn anekAMs tarasA vimRdnan; yadA kSeptA dhArtarASTrasya sainyam05047017c chindan vanaM parazuneva zUras; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047018a tRNaprAyaM jvalaneneva dagdhaM; grAmaM yathA dhArtarASTraH samIkSya05047018c pakvaM sasyaM vaidyuteneva dagdhaM; parAsiktaM vipulaM svaM balaugham05047019a hatapravIraM vimukhaM bhayArtaM; parAGmukhaM prAyazo 'dhRSTayodham05047019c zastrArciSA bhImasenena dagdhaM; tadA

yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047020a upAsaGgAd uddharan dakSiNena; paraHzatAn nakulaz citrayodhI05047020c yadA rathAgryo rathinaH pracetA; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047021a sukhocito duHkhazayyAM vaneSu; dIrghaM kAlaM nakulo yAm azeta05047021c AzIviSaH kruddha iva zvasan bhRzaM; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047022a tyaktAtmAnaH pArthivAyodhanAya; samAdiSTA dharmarAjena vIrAH05047022c rathaiH zubhraiH sainyam abhidravanto; dRSTvA pazcAt tapsyate dhArtarASTraH05047023a zizUn kRtAstrAn azizuprakAzAn; yadA draSTA kauravaH paJca zUrAn05047023c tyaktvA prANAn kekayAn Adravantas; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047024a yadA gatodvAham akUjanAkSaM; suvarNatAraM ratham AtatAyI05047024c dAntair yuktaM sahadevo 'dhirUDhaH; zirAMsi rAjJAM kSepsyate mArgaNaughaiH05047025a mahAbhaye saMpravRtte rathasthaM; vivartamAnaM samare kRtAstram05047025c sarvAM dizaM saMpatantaM samIkSya; tadA

yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047026a hrIniSedho nipuNaH satyavAdI; mahAbalaH sarvadharmopapannaH05047026c gAndhArim ArcchaMs tumule kSiprakArI; kSeptA janAn sahadevas tarasvI05047027a yadA draSTA draupadeyAn maheSUJ; zUrAn kRtAstrAn rathayuddhakovidAn05047027c AzIviSAn ghoraviSAn ivAyatas; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047028a yadAbhimanyuH paravIraghAtI; zaraiH parAn megha ivAbhivarSan05047028c vigAhitA kRSNasamaH kRtAstras; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047029a yadA draSTA bAlam abAlavIryaM; dviSaccamUM mRtyum ivApatantam05047029c saubhadram indrapratimaM kRtAstraM; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047030a prabhadrakAH zIghratarA yuvAno; vizAradAH siMhasamAnavIryAH05047030c yadA kSeptAro dhArtarASTrAn sasainyAMs; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047031a vRddhau virATadrupadau mahArathau; pRthak camUbhyAm abhivartamAnau05047031c yadA draSTArau dhArtarASTrAn sasainyAMs;

tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047032a yadA kRtAstro drupadaH pracinvaJ; zirAMsi yUnAM samare rathasthaH05047032c kruddhaH zaraiz chetsyati cApamuktais; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047033a yadA virATaH paravIraghAtI; marmAntare zatrucamUM praveSTA05047033c matsyaiH sArdham anRzaMsarUpais; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047034a jyeSThaM mAtsyAnAm anRzaMsarUpaM; virATaputraM rathinaM purastAt05047034c yadA draSTA daMzitaM pANDavArthe; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047035a raNe hate kauravANAM pravIre; zikhaNDinA sattame zaMtanUje05047035c na jAtu naH zatravo dhArayeyur; asaMzayaM satyam etad bravImi05047036a yadA zikhaNDI rathinaH pracinvan; bhISmaM rathenAbhiyAtA varUthI05047036c divyair hayair avamRdnan rathaughAMs; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047037a yadA draSTA sRJjayAnAm anIke; dhRSTadyumnaM pramukhe rocamAnam05047037c astraM yasmai guhyam uvAca dhImAn;

droNas tadA tapsyati dhArtarASTraH05047038a yadA sa senApatir aprameyaH; parAbhavann iSubhir dhArtarASTrAn05047038c droNaM raNe zatrusaho 'bhiyAtA; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047039a hrImAn manISI balavAn manasvI; sa lakSmIvAn somakAnAM prabarhaH05047039c na jAtu taM zatravo 'nye saheran; yeSAM sa syAd agraNIr vRSNisiMhaH05047040a brUyAc ca mA pravRNISveti loke; yuddhe 'dvitIyaM sacivaM rathastham05047040c ziner naptAraM pravRNIma sAtyakiM; mahAbalaM vItabhayaM kRtAstram05047041a yadA zinInAm adhipo mayoktaH; zaraiH parAn megha iva pravarSan05047041c pracchAdayiSyaJ zarajAlena yodhAMs; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047042a yadA dhRtiM kurute yotsyamAnaH; sa dIrghabAhur dRDhadhanvA mahAtmA05047042c siMhasyeva gandham AghrAya gAvaH; saMveSTante zatravo 'smAd yathAgneH05047043a sa dIrghabAhur dRDhadhanvA mahAtmA; bhindyAd girIn saMharet sarvalokAn05047043c astre kRtI nipuNaH kSiprahasto;

divi sthitaH sUrya ivAbhibhAti05047044a citraH sUkSmaH sukRto yAdavasya; astre yogo vRSNisiMhasya bhUyAn05047044c yathAvidhaM yogam AhuH prazastaM; sarvair guNaiH sAtyakis tair upetaH05047045a hiraNmayaM zvetahayaiz caturbhir; yadA yuktaM syandanaM mAdhavasya05047045c draSTA yuddhe sAtyaker vai suyodhanas; tadA tapsyaty akRtAtmA sa mandaH05047046a yadA rathaM hemamaNiprakAzaM; zvetAzvayuktaM vAnaraketum ugram05047046c draSTA raNe saMyataM kezavena; tadA tapsyaty akRtAtmA sa mandaH05047047a yadA maurvyAs talaniSpeSam ugraM; mahAzabdaM vajraniSpeSatulyam05047047c vidhUyamAnasya mahAraNe mayA; gANDIvasya zroSyati mandabuddhiH05047048a tadA mUDho dhRtarASTrasya putras; taptA yuddhe durmatir duHsahAyaH05047048c dRSTvA sainyaM bANavarSAndhakAraM; prabhajyantaM gokulavad raNAgre05047049a balAhakAd uccarantIva vidyut; sahasraghnI dviSatAM saMgameSu05047049c asthicchido marmabhido vamec charAMs; tadA yuddhaM

dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047050a yadA draSTA jyAmukhAd bANasaMghAn; gANDIvamuktAn patataH zitAgrAn05047050c nAgAn hayAn varmiNaz cAdadAnAMs; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047051a yadA mandaH parabANAn vimuktAn; mameSubhir hriyamANAn pratIpam05047051c tiryag vidvAMz chidyamAnAn kSuraprais; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047052a yadA vipAThA madbhujavipramuktA; dvijAH phalAnIva mahIruhAgrAt05047052c pracchettAra uttamAGgAni yUnAM; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047053a yadA draSTA patataH syandanebhyo; mahAgajebhyo 'zvagatAMz ca yodhAn05047053c zarair hatAn pAtitAMz caiva raGge; tadA yuddhaM dhArtarASTro 'nvatapsyat05047054a padAtisaMghAn rathasaMghAn samantAd; vyAttAnanaH kAla ivAtateSuH05047054c praNotsyAmi jvalitair bANavarSaiH; zatrUMs tadA tapsyati mandabuddhiH05047055a sarvA dizaH saMpatatA rathena; rajodhvastaM gANDivenApakRttam05047055c yadA draSTA svabalaM saMpramUDhaM;

tadA pazcAt tapsyati mandabuddhiH05047056a kAMdigbhUtaM chinnagAtraM visaMjJaM; duryodhano drakSyati sarvasainyam05047056c hatAzvavIrAgryanare ndranAgaM; pipAsitaM zrAntapatraM bhayArtam05047057a ArtasvaraM hanyamAnaM hataM ca; vikIrNakezAsthikapA lasaMgham05047057c prajApateH karma yathArdhaniSThitaM; tadA dRSTvA tapsyate mandabuddhiH05047058a yadA rathe gANDivaM vAsudevaM; divyaM zaGkhaM pAJcajanyaM hayAMz ca05047058c tUNAv akSayyau devadattaM ca mAM ca; draSTA yuddhe dhArtarASTraH sametAn05047059a udvartayan dasyusaMghAn sametAn; pravartayan yugam anyad yugAnte05047059c yadA dhakSyAmy agnivat kauraveyAMs; tadA taptA dhRtarASTraH saputraH05047060a sahabhrAtA sahaputraH sasainyo; bhraSTaizvaryaH krodhavazo 'lpacetAH05047060c darpasyAnte vihite vepamAnaH; pazcAn mandas tapsyati dhArtarASTraH05047061a pUrvAhNe mAM kRtajapyaM kadA cid; vipraH provAcodakAnte manojJam05047061c kartavyaM te duSkaraM karma

pArtha; yoddhavyaM te zatrubhiH savyasAcin05047062a indro vA te harivAn vajrahastaH; purastAd yAtu samare 'rIn vinighnan05047062c sugrIvayuktena rathena vA te; pazcAt kRSNo rakSatu vAsudevaH05047063a vavre cAhaM vajrahastAn mahendrAd; asmin yuddhe vAsudevaM sahAyam05047063c sa me labdho dasyuvadhAya kRSNo; manye caitad vihitaM daivatair me05047064a ayudhyamAno manasApi yasya; jayaM kRSNaH puruSasyAbhinandet05047064c dhruvaM sarvAn so 'bhyatIyAd amitrAn; sendrAn devAn mAnuSe nAsti cintA05047065a sa bAhubhyAM sAgaram uttitIrSen; mahodadhiM salilasyAprameyam05047065c tejasvinaM kRSNam atyantazUraM; yuddhena yo vAsudevaM jigISet05047066a giriM ya iccheta talena bhettuM; ziloccayaM zvetam atipramANam05047066c tasyaiva pANiH sanakho vizIryen; na cApi kiM cit sa gires tu kuryAt05047067a agniM samiddhaM zamayed bhujAbhyAM; candraM ca sUryaM ca nivArayeta05047067c hared devAnAm amRtaM prasahya; yuddhena yo

vAsudevaM jigISet05047068a yo rukmiNIm ekarathena bhojyAm; utsAdya rAjJAM viSayaM prasahya05047068c uvAha bhAryAM yazasA jvalantIM; yasyAM jajJe raukmiNeyo mahAtmA05047069a ayaM gAndhArAMs tarasA saMpramathya; jitvA putrAn nagnajitaH samagrAn05047069c baddhaM mumoca vinadantaM prasahya; sudarzanIyaM devatAnAM lalAmam05047070a ayaM kavATe nijaghAna pANDyaM; tathA kaliGgAn dantakUre mamarda05047070c anena dagdhA varSapUgAn vinAthA; vArANasI nagarI saMbabhUva05047071a yaM sma yuddhe manyate 'nyair ajeyam; ekalavyaM nAma niSAdarAjam05047071c vegeneva zailam abhihatya jambhaH; zete sa kRSNena hataH parAsuH05047072a tathograsenasya sutaM praduSTaM; vRSNyandhakAnAM madhyagAM tapantam05047072c apAtayad baladevadvitIyo; hatvA dadau cograsenAya rAjyam05047073a ayaM saubhaM yodhayAm Asa khasthaM; vibhISaNaM mAyayA zAlvarAjam05047073c saubhadvAri pratyagRhNAc chataghnIM; dorbhyAM ka enaM viSaheta martyaH05047074a

prAgjyotiSaM nAma babhUva durgaM; puraM ghoram asurANAm asahyam05047074c mahAbalo narakas tatra bhaumo; jahArAdityA maNikuNDale zubhe05047075a na taM devAH saha zakreNa sehire; samAgatA AharaNAya bhItAH05047075c dRSTvA ca te vikramaM kezavasya; balaM tathaivAstram avAraNIyam05047076a jAnanto 'sya prakRtiM kezavasya; nyayojayan dasyuvadhAya kRSNam05047076c sa tat karma pratizuzrAva duSkaram; aizvaryavAn siddhiSu vAsudevaH05047077a nirmocane SaT sahasrANi hatvA; saMchidya pAzAn sahasA kSurAntAn05047077c muraM hatvA vinihatyaugharAkSas aM; nirmocanaM cApi jagAma vIraH05047078a tatraiva tenAsya babhUva yuddhaM; mahAbalenAtibalasya viSNoH05047078c zete sa kRSNena hataH parAsur; vAteneva mathitaH karNikAraH05047079a AhRtya kRSNo maNikuNDale te; hatvA ca bhaumaM narakaM muraM ca05047079c zriyA vRto yazasA caiva dhImAn; pratyAjagAmApratima prabhAvaH05047080a tasmai varAn adadaMs tatra devA; dRSTvA bhImaM karma

raNe kRtaM tat05047080c zramaz ca te yudhyamAnasya na syAd; AkAze vA apsu caiva kramaH syAt05047081a zastrANi gAtre ca na te kramerann; ity eva kRSNaz ca tataH kRtArthaH05047081c evaMrUpe vAsudeve 'prameye; mahAbale guNasaMpat sadaiva05047082a tam asahyaM viSNum anantavIryam; AzaMsate dhArtarASTro balena05047082c yadA hy enaM tarkayate durAtmA; tac cApy ayaM sahate 'smAn samIkSya05047083a paryAgataM mama kRSNasya caiva; yo manyate kalahaM saMprayujya05047083c zakyaM hartuM pANDavAnAM mamatvaM; tad veditA saMyugaM tatra gatvA05047084a namaskRtvA zAMtanavAya rAjJe; droNAyAtho sahaputrAya caiva05047084c zAradvatAyApratidva ndvine ca; yotsyAmy ahaM rAjyam abhIpsamAnaH05047085a dharmeNAstraM niyataM tasya manye; yo yotsyate pANDavair dharmacArI05047085c mithyAglahe nirjitA vai nRzaMsaiH; saMvatsarAn dvAdaza pANDuputrAH05047086a avApya kRcchraM vihitaM hy araNye; dIrghaM kAlaM caikam ajJAtacaryAm05047086c te

hy akasmAj jIvitaM pANDavAnAM; na mRSyante dhArtarASTrAH padasthAH05047087a te ced asmAn yudhyamAnAJ jayeyur; devair apIndrapramukhaiH sahAyaiH05047087c dharmAd adharmaz carito garIyAn; iti dhruvaM nAsti kRtaM na sAdhu05047088a na ced imaM puruSaM karmabaddhaM; na ced asmAn manyate 'sau viziSTAn05047088c AzaMse 'haM vAsudevadvitIyo; duryodhanaM sAnubandhaM nihantum05047089a na ced idaM karma nareSu baddhaM; na vidyate puruSasya svakarma05047089c idaM ca tac cApi samIkSya nUnaM; parAjayo dhArtarASTrasya sAdhuH05047090a pratyakSaM vaH kuravo yad bravImi; yudhyamAnA dhArtarASTrA na santi05047090c anyatra yuddhAt kuravaH parIpsan; na yudhyatAM zeSa ihAsti kaz cit05047091a hatvA tv ahaM dhArtarASTrAn sakarNAn; rAjyaM kurUNAm avajetA samagram05047091c yad vaH kAryaM tat kurudhvaM yathAsvam; iSTAn dArAn AtmajAMz copabhuGkta05047092a apy evaM no brAhmaNAH santi vRddhA; bahuzrutAH zIlavantaH kulInAH05047092c

sAMvatsarA jyotiSi cApi yuktA; nakSatrayogeSu ca nizcayajJAH05047093a uccAvacaM daivayuktaM rahasyaM; divyAH praznA mRgacakrA muhUrtAH05047093c kSayaM mahAntaM kurusRJjayAnAM; nivedayante pANDavAnAM jayaM ca05047094a tathA hi no manyate 'jAtazatruH; saMsiddhArtho dviSatAM nigrahAya05047094c janArdanaz cApy aparokSavidyo; na saMzayaM pazyati vRSNisiMhaH05047095a ahaM ca jAnAmi bhaviSyarUpaM; pazyAmi buddhyA svayam apramattaH05047095c dRSTiz ca me na vyathate purANI; yudhyamAnA dhArtarASTrA na santi05047096a anAlabdhaM jRmbhati gANDivaM dhanur; anAlabdhA kampati me dhanurjyA05047096c bANAz ca me tUNamukhAd visRjya; muhur muhur gantum uzanti caiva05047097a saikyaH kozAn niHsarati prasanno; hitveva jIrNAm uragas tvacaM svAm05047097c dhvaje vAco raudrarUpA vadanti; kadA ratho yokSyate te kirITin05047098a gomAyusaMghAz ca vadanti rAtrau; rakSAMsy atho niSpatanty antarikSAt05047098c mRgAH zRgAlAH zitikaNThAz ca

kAkA; gRdhrA baDAz caiva tarakSavaz ca05047099a suparNapAtAz ca patanti pazcAd; dRSTvA rathaM zvetahayaprayuktam05047099c ahaM hy ekaH pArthivAn sarvayodhAJ; zarAn varSan mRtyulokaM nayeyam05047100a samAdadAnaH pRthag astramArgAn; yathAgnir iddho gahanaM nidAghe05047100c sthUNAkarNaM pAzupataM ca ghoraM; tathA brahmAstraM yac ca zakro viveda05047101a vadhe dhRto vegavataH pramuJcan; nAhaM prajAH kiM cid ivAvaziSye05047101c zAntiM lapsye paramo hy eSa bhAvaH; sthiro mama brUhi gAvalgaNe tAn05047102a nityaM punaH sacivair yair avocad; devAn apIndrapramukhAn sahAyAn05047102c tair manyate kalahaM saMprayujya; sa dhArtarASTraH pazyata moham asya05047103a vRddho bhISmaH zAMtanavaH kRpaz ca; droNaH saputro viduraz ca dhImAn05047103c ete sarve yad vadante tad astu; AyuSmantaH kuravaH santu sarve[in response to Shri AK Kaul's post (Jun 22, 2009) at http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5193]

[Guest guest]

Abhinavagupta , Avtar

Krishen Kaul wrote:

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

Namaskar!

 

< If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions " sun having twelve

spokes in

his wheel " .>

 

You have given neither the original mantra in full nor a complete translation

of

the mantra. Why?

 

Pl. translate the full mantra yourself into English and then let me know as to

what the meaning of twelve spokes is. How do you reconcile those twelve

" animals " with the figure of 720, if not as days plus nights of the

twelve

months?

 

Secondly, can you quote even a single mantra that talks of animals like Rams

and

Bulls and Scorpions etc. etc. in a successive order as is done in the Surya

Siddhanta by Maya the mlechha or the Puranas?

Why were the Vedic seers shy of mentioning those " Scales " and

" Virgins " etc. in

a " pratyakshya " manner and why should we have to employ

" paroskhya professors "

to solve the " mystery of the missing rashis " in the Vedas?

 

Why do we not find any mention in the Rik Jyotisham or even Yajur Jyotisham

either of Rashis or of Mangal, Shani etc. planets?

How on earth and under the sun did the Vedic Seers calculate their horoscopes

according to you correct to the nearest second of planetary longitude if Rik

Jyotisham takes the duration of a year as 366 and wants us to derive the

duration of a tithi on the basis of mean longitudes of the sun and the moon?

 

There were Delphic Oracles in ancient Greece. There were clay tablets of the

position of planets vis-a-vis Aries etc. astrological signs in Babylonia which

was yesteryear's Iraq. And I am sure you know what the fate of Babylonia and/or

those Delphis was. Do you mean to say that we in India also did have similar

Delphis?

My dear friend, by trying to prove that the real Vamadevas were astro-buffs you

are putting the Vedic seers to shame, since fatalism is completely against the

Vedic ethos.

 

We must not forget Iqbal's famous lines:

 

Iran Misra Roma, sab mit gaye jahan se

ab tak magar hai baakee namo nishan hamara

 

Ides of March could have been predicted for Julius Caesar by the Roman

soothsayer but we do not have any such records in India prior to the charlatan

Varahamihira's Brihat Samhita.

 

Pl., for God's sake, do not involve real Vamadevas in this hocus-pocus known as

Vedic astrology! Do not forget the " chetavani " of Chanakaya!

 

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

 

 

[Reply to Shivraj Khokra's post (22 June 2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5194

 

Rest of thi sthread at Koenraad's post (23 June 2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5206]

Re: References of Rashis in the

Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Kaulji and Francesco

ji,

 

Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:

4. Zodiac is an " imaginary belt " with " imaginary animals " none

of which is equal to one another. Those animals were

known as constellations and became known as Mesha etc. rashis later. They are

actually of Greek origin, whereasnakshatras are of Indian origin.

 

 

If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions " sun having twelve spokes

in his wheel " . This is clearly a twelve fold division of the

ecliptic. Now are you and Brighenti by any chance making the absurd suggestion

that the rig vedic seers would have waited for

1000 years (still assuming the AIT scholars' date of 1400 B.C. for Rig Veda),

for the arrival of the Alexandrian Greeks to

label these twelve divisions of Sun's path through the firmament? Seems

illogical doesn't it?

 

[Reply to Avtar's post (21 June 2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5186]

 

Francesco Brighenti wrote:

This appears to me to support (or either not to contradict) the contention that

the zodiac was imported into India from Irano-Chaldaean sources between the

phase of Achaemenid supremacy over present-day Pakistan and the subsequent

advent of the Greeks following Alexander's invasion of the same territories.

 

Please read the Rig Vedic Hymn given above. Now please tell us a reference from

Irano Chaldean sources of proven provenance

which predates RigVeda in referring to a 12 fold division of the ecliptic. If

we cannot find one then the thesis that Greeks

brought this " knowledge " into India stands rejected.

 

[Reply to Francesco's post (21 June 2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5185]

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Abhinavagupta , Sunil Bhattacharjya wrote:

 

Sunil,

 

The preceding thread was not removed and replaced with a hyperlink, though I

have already requested you not to use this Abhinava forum as dumping ground for

(untrimmed) cross-posts to other lists.

 

* Please do not digress (your 1st para below) into your own private version of

Vedic chronology when attempting to establish rashis in Vedas & MBH, because

most here do not to your dates. The arguments end up being circular

because the (exaggerated) antiquity of the Puranas would make the zodiacal signs

pre-Greek. You resort to the Saraswati river as a crutch though we know of no

temples in the IVC, which is what the Puranic religion is largely all about.

There can't be any constructive engagement until you argue from the premises of

your opponents and show them to be internally incoherent.

 

* You are again misrepresenting Avtar and others who believe that the zodiacal

signs are a late introduction as " Greco-philes " when it would be evident to

everyone here that this a controversy between two factions of (mostly brahmin)

mleccha-haters (i.e., who hate having to admit any, including Greek, borrowings

in Hindu traditions). The only difference, in this regard, is that your faction

values zodiacal astrology and hence insists on tracing it back to the Vedas,

whereas Avtar's factions believes it to be a curse on the Hindu calendar and

therefore keeps abusing Varahamihira and other 'Greco-philes'.

 

The more repetitive, digressive, and frequent your posts (> 6 pots just over the

last couple of days), the greater chance of them being indefinitely delayed

(perhaps to be eventually rejected). Which would be pity because any fresh

substantive points you make (as in the subsequent paras) would also end up lost

in cyberspace...

 

Sunthar

 

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar's comments (27 June) on Sunil's post (24 June

2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5223]

 

--------------

 

Dear Shri Dinesh Dheengra,

 

The main purpose of this thread is  to clarify that the Indians knew Astrology

long before the Greeks knew. That is why I have showed about the mention of the

Rashis in Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha as well as in the Puranas. According to

the Veda itself the Veda has both Pratyaksha and Paroksha meanings. Some

anti-Hindu people  do not believe that the Veda can have Paroksha meaning and

they even ridicule this idea thereby they ridicule the Veda itself, because 

the Brhadaranyak Upanishad very clearly states that. Vedanga Jyotisha

also mentioned Rashi and I have shown that.  Till the British ruled India ie.

till up to the middle of the twentieth century there was very little opposition

to Prof. Max Muller's Aryan Invasion theory (AIT). After proposing AIT, prof

Max Muller also proposed a chronology of Ancient Indian History, according to

which the Vedas were written after 14th century BCE and they have also lowered

the antiquity of the Mahabharata and the Puranas. Taking advantage of that

chronology David Pingree  proposed that the Indians learnt Jyotish from the

Babylonia and Greeks. Some anti-Hindu Grecophiles like Kaul and his group follow

what Pingree said, as if that is the Gospel truth. They are fighting tooth and

nail to see that everybody must accept what Pingree said. But with the discovery

of the river Saraswati, and fresh evaluation of some of the papers of the

British officers like William Jones and also due to other recent archaeological

findings, we now know definitely how those people during  the British rule in

India manipulated the ancient Indian Chronology. Now we know that the

Mahabharata war did take place when the river Saraswati was flowing, i.e. about

5000 years ago. That is also confirmed by the continuing unbroken Saptarshi

calendar, which started in 3077 BCE. Now we know that Astrology was used by the

Indians in the Mahabharata days ie. more that 5000

years ago and the Indians have not learnt astrology from the Greeks. Because of

belief in the AIT some Indian scholars tried to temper with the Vedanga Jyotisha

but luckily the text survived till this day.

 

What the Rashis are  and how they are related to the Nakshatras and which fact

makes then Sidereal, have already been given in the quotes from the Puranas I

have already given by me.

 

You have asked some questions such as (1) why the Rashis are equal divisions of

30 degrees, (2) what is the purpose of naming the Rashis after the shapes

animals, (3) what is the starting point of a Rashi and (4) why Ophicus was

ignored. Then you said that by those stars  you can also make donkey and

Machaina Saanp (snake which live in gutter), khatmal (bedbugs), Macchar

(mosquito) and even your cute monkey. Let me remind you that you have forgotten

to add as to why the Nakshatras are equal divisions of 13 degrees and 20

minutes.

 

Your questions on the RshiS and their shapes etc. are beside the main purpose of

this thread based on the historical criteria. From that angle in fact I should

have advised you to open a separate thread to discuss your those points. It

appears that you have got some information but that is not sufficient to

understand the Indian Jyotish shastra. For explaining the first three of your

questions  I shall have to tell you about a Vedic verse and I am sure that you

if you are a Kaulian you will be put off by that as the Kaulians do agree to

what the Brhadaranyak says about the interpretation of the Vedic

verses. Secondly you will have to accept the concept of  Yoga-Tara. So if you

are a Kaulian then my explanation will  go over your head and will be of no

use to you.  As regards the Ophiuchius you will have also to ask why Claudius

Ptolemy in the 2nd century CE also did not include it in the Zodiac, though he

included in his catalogue of stars.

 

As regards you critical observation that you can see so many other animals

including your pet monkey on the ecliptic I would advise you to publish

a publish a book on that and send that to Mr. Kaul for reviewing.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra wrote:

 

 

Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra

Re: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 6:16 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected Sunil Sir,

 

You have said as below :-

 

Quote

 

To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only.

 

Unquote

 

Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in

existence

due to those animal shapes generated by cluster of shapes.

 

Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will

decide which animal will represent which Rashi.

 

Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of

Aries.

 

Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to the

animals.

 

Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those.

 

By the way by those stars(by which we have made animals), i can also

make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs),

machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey.

 

Dinesh Dheengara

 

--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya

@> wrote:

 

sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and

the Vedanga Jyotisha.

vedic_research_ institute

Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, ,

vedic-jyotish

Monday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23 AM

 

 

Kaulji,

 

1) Kaulji wrote as follows:

 

Quote

 

Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

 

Unquote

 

Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot

understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha

meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret

meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka

Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings.

 

2)The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that

of animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical

observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the

different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would  have any

alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky?

 

3) " Bha-chakra " is " Nakshatra-chkra " . Now how can Avtarji say that " Bha-chakra "

is the same as the " Mriga-chakra " ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been

ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay

Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

[Response to Avtar's post (21 June 2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5186]

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

HinduCalendar , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved

wrote:

 

Abhinavagupta , Sunil Bhattacharjya wrote:

 

Sunil,

 

The preceding thread was not removed and replaced with a hyperlink, though I

have already requested you not to use this Abhinava forum as dumping ground for

(untrimmed) cross-posts to other lists.

 

* Please do not digress (your 1st para below) into your own private version of

Vedic chronology when attempting to establish rashis in Vedas & MBH, because

most here do not to your dates. The arguments end up being circular

because the (exaggerated) antiquity of the Puranas would make the zodiacal signs

pre-Greek. You resort to the Saraswati river as a crutch though we know of no

temples in the IVC, which is what the Puranic religion is largely all about.

There can't be any constructive engagement until you argue from the premises of

your opponents and show them to be internally incoherent.

 

* You are again misrepresenting Avtar and others who believe that the zodiacal

signs are a late introduction as " Greco-philes " when it would be evident to

everyone here that this a controversy between two factions of (mostly brahmin)

mleccha-haters (i.e., who hate having to admit any, including Greek, borrowings

in Hindu traditions). The only difference, in this regard, is that your faction

values zodiacal astrology and hence insists on tracing it back to the Vedas,

whereas Avtar's factions believes it to be a curse on the Hindu calendar and

therefore keeps abusing Varahamihira and other 'Greco-philes'.

 

The more repetitive, digressive, and frequent your posts (> 6 pots just over the

last couple of days), the greater chance of them being indefinitely delayed

(perhaps to be eventually rejected). Which would be pity because any fresh

substantive points you make (as in the subsequent paras) would also end up lost

in cyberspace...

 

Sunthar

 

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar's comments (27 June) on Sunil's post (24 June

2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5223]

 

--------------

 

Dear Shri Dinesh Dheengra,

 

The main purpose of this thread is  to clarify that the Indians knew Astrology

long before the Greeks knew. That is why I have showed about the mention of the

Rashis in Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha as well as in the Puranas. According to

the Veda itself the Veda has both Pratyaksha and Paroksha meanings. Some

anti-Hindu people  do not believe that the Veda can have Paroksha meaning and

they even ridicule this idea thereby they ridicule the Veda itself, because 

the Brhadaranyak Upanishad very clearly states that. Vedanga Jyotisha

also mentioned Rashi and I have shown that.  Till the British ruled India ie.

till up to the middle of the twentieth century there was very little opposition

to Prof. Max Muller's Aryan Invasion theory (AIT). After proposing AIT, prof

Max Muller also proposed a chronology of Ancient Indian History, according to

which the Vedas were written after 14th century BCE and they have also lowered

the antiquity of the Mahabharata and the Puranas. Taking advantage of that

chronology David Pingree  proposed that the Indians learnt Jyotish from the

Babylonia and Greeks. Some anti-Hindu Grecophiles like Kaul and his group follow

what Pingree said, as if that is the Gospel truth. They are fighting tooth and

nail to see that everybody must accept what Pingree said. But with the discovery

of the river Saraswati, and fresh evaluation of some of the papers of the

British officers like William Jones and also due to other recent archaeological

findings, we now know definitely how those people during  the British rule in

India manipulated the ancient Indian Chronology. Now we know that the

Mahabharata war did take place when the river Saraswati was flowing, i.e. about

5000 years ago. That is also confirmed by the continuing unbroken Saptarshi

calendar, which started in 3077 BCE. Now we know that Astrology was used by the

Indians in the Mahabharata days ie. more that 5000

years ago and the Indians have not learnt astrology from the Greeks. Because of

belief in the AIT some Indian scholars tried to temper with the Vedanga Jyotisha

but luckily the text survived till this day.

 

What the Rashis are  and how they are related to the Nakshatras and which fact

makes then Sidereal, have already been given in the quotes from the Puranas I

have already given by me.

 

You have asked some questions such as (1) why the Rashis are equal divisions of

30 degrees, (2) what is the purpose of naming the Rashis after the shapes

animals, (3) what is the starting point of a Rashi and (4) why Ophicus was

ignored. Then you said that by those stars  you can also make donkey and

Machaina Saanp (snake which live in gutter), khatmal (bedbugs), Macchar

(mosquito) and even your cute monkey. Let me remind you that you have forgotten

to add as to why the Nakshatras are equal divisions of 13 degrees and 20

minutes.

 

Your questions on the RshiS and their shapes etc. are beside the main purpose of

this thread based on the historical criteria. From that angle in fact I should

have advised you to open a separate thread to discuss your those points. It

appears that you have got some information but that is not sufficient to

understand the Indian Jyotish shastra. For explaining the first three of your

questions  I shall have to tell you about a Vedic verse and I am sure that you

if you are a Kaulian you will be put off by that as the Kaulians do agree to

what the Brhadaranyak says about the interpretation of the Vedic

verses. Secondly you will have to accept the concept of  Yoga-Tara. So if you

are a Kaulian then my explanation will  go over your head and will be of no

use to you.  As regards the Ophiuchius you will have also to ask why Claudius

Ptolemy in the 2nd century CE also did not include it in the Zodiac, though he

included in his catalogue of stars.

 

As regards you critical observation that you can see so many other animals

including your pet monkey on the ecliptic I would advise you to publish

a publish a book on that and send that to Mr. Kaul for reviewing.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra@> wrote:

 

 

Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra@>

Re: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas

and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 6:16 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Respected Sunil Sir,

 

You have said as below :-

 

Quote

 

To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only.

 

Unquote

 

Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in

existence

due to those animal shapes generated by cluster of shapes.

 

Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will

decide which animal will represent which Rashi.

 

Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of

Aries.

 

Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to the

animals.

 

Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those.

 

By the way by those stars(by which we have made animals), i can also

make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs),

machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey.

 

Dinesh Dheengara

 

--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya

@> wrote:

 

sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and

the Vedanga Jyotisha.

vedic_research_ institute

Cc: ancient_indian_ astrology, ,

vedic-jyotish

Monday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23 AM

 

 

Kaulji,

 

1) Kaulji wrote as follows:

 

Quote

 

Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have

advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt.  But

then you never know, maybe " modern Vedic astrologers " have seen the " paroskhya

meaning " of " paroskhya rashi " based " parokshya predictions " which people like me

cannot.

 

Unquote

 

Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot

understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha

meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret

meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka

Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings.

 

2)The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that

of animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical

observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the

different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would  have any

alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky?

 

3) " Bha-chakra " is " Nakshatra-chkra " . Now how can Avtarji say that " Bha-chakra "

is the same as the " Mriga-chakra " ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been

ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay

Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

[Response to Avtar's post (21 June 2009) at

 

Abhinavagupta/message/5186]

 

--- End forwarded message ---

 

--- End forwarded message ---