Re:References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

[Guest guest]

Dear Shivrajji,

 

1)

Have you noticed the strange biased logic in the following?

 

Quote

 

Secondly, can you quote even a single mantra that talks of animals like Rams and Bulls and Scorpions etc. etc. in a successive order as is done in the Surya Siddhanta by Maya the mlechha or the Puranas? Why were the Vedic seers shy of mentioning those "Scales" and "Virgins" etc. in a "pratyakshya" manner and why should we have to employ "paroskhya professors" to solve the "mystery of the missing rashis" in the Vedas?

 

Unquote

 

The Puranas clearly mention the names of the Rashis such as Mesha and Vrshabha. I have even quoted the verses from the Vamana purana showing how the Rashis such as Mesha and Vrshabha are linked to the fixed Nakshatras. The Puranas have the exalted status of the Fifth Veda, as mentioned in the Upanishads (Chandogya Upanishad 7.1.2). While Vedas have the Paroksha meanings of the verses, the Puranas have direct meaning so that even a layman can understand that. Kaulji is thoroughly confused searching paroksha meanings in the puranas and not accepting the direct meanings

 

2)

 

Quote

 

Why do we not find any mention in the Rik Jyotisham or even Yajur Jyotisham either of Rashis or of Mangal, Shani etc. planets?

 

Unquote

 

I have already given the reference of Rashi in the Vedanga Jyotisha. Yet he says as above.

 

Further how does he say that Mangal and Shani are not given in the Vedas? How can a person who ridicules the Veads having Paroksha meaning will find that in the Vedas. Let him first accept that the Vedas have Paroksha meaning and then look for the Rsahis in the Vedas and he will find it. If after unconditionbal acceptance of the Paroksha meaning of the Vedic vertses he does not find the nine grahas in the Vedas then I shall show him. Just as a sample let me tell him that Rahu and Ketu are mentioned as Sewarabhanu in Veda.

 

Sincerely

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Avtar <Avtar wrote:

Avtar <Avtar[Abhinavagupta] Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.Abhinavagupta Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:29 AM

 

 

Shri Shivraj Knokraji,Namaskar!< If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions "sun having twelve spokes in his wheel".>You have given neither the original mantra in full nor a complete translation of the mantra. Why?Pl. translate the full mantra yourself into English and then let me know as to what the meaning of twelve spokes is. How do you reconcile those twelve "animals" with the figure of 720, if not as days plus nights of the twelve months?Secondly, can you quote even a single mantra that talks of animals like Rams and Bulls and Scorpions etc. etc. in a successive order as is done in the Surya Siddhanta by Maya the mlechha or the Puranas? Why were the Vedic seers shy of mentioning those "Scales" and "Virgins" etc. in a "pratyakshya" manner and why should we have to employ "paroskhya professors" to solve the "mystery of the missing rashis" in the Vedas?Why do we not find any mention in the

Rik Jyotisham or even Yajur Jyotisham either of Rashis or of Mangal, Shani etc. planets?How on earth and under the sun did the Vedic Seers calculate their horoscopes according to you correct to the nearest second of planetary longitude if Rik Jyotisham takes the duration of a year as 366 and wants us to derive the duration of a tithi on the basis of mean longitudes of the sun and the moon?There were Delphic Oracles in ancient Greece. There were clay tablets of the position of planets vis-a-vis Aries etc. astrological signs in Babylonia which was yesteryear's Iraq. And I am sure you know what the fate of Babylonia and/or those Delphis was. Do you mean to say that we in India also did have similar Delphis?My dear friend, by trying to prove that the real Vamadevas were astro-buffs you are putting the Vedic seers to shame, since fatalism is completely against the Vedic ethos.We must not forget Iqbal's famous lines:Iran Misra

Roma, sab mit gaye jahan seab tak magar hai baakee namo nishan hamaraIdes of March could have been predicted for Julius Caesar by the Roman soothsayer but we do not have any such records in India prior to the charlatan Varahamihira' s Brihat Samhita.Pl., for God's sake, do not involve real Vamadevas in this hocus-pocus known as Vedic astrology! Do not forget the "chetavani" of Chanakaya!With regards,A K Kaul[Reply to Shivraj Khokra's post (22 June 2009) at http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5194Rest of thi sthread at Koenraad's post (23 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5206]

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Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:58 pm

From

 

"Sunil Bhattacharjya" <sunil_bhattacharjya

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cc:

vedic astrology , Abhinavagupta , vedic_research_institute , USBrahmins , WAVES-Vedic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Shri Dinesh Dheengra,

 

The main purpose of this thread is to clarify that the Indians knew Astrology long before the Greeks knew. That is why I have showed about the mention of the Rashis in Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha as well as in the Puranas. According to the Veda itself the Veda has both Pratyaksha and Paroksha meanings. Some anti-Hindu people do not believe that the Veda can have Paroksha meaning and they even ridicule this idea thereby they ridicule the Veda itsef, because the Brhadaranyak Upanishad very clearly states that. Vedanga Jyotisha also mentioned Rashi and I have shown that. Till the British ruled India ie. till upto the middle of the twentieth century there was very little opposition to Prof. Max Muller's Aryan Invasion theory (AIT). After proposing AIT, prof Max Muller also proposed a chronology of Ancient Indian History, according to which the Vedas were written after 14th century

BCE and they have also lowered the antiquity of the Mahabharata and the Puranas. Taking advantage of that chronology David Pingree proposed that the Indians learnt Jyotish from the Babylonia and Greeks. Some anti-Hindu Greekofiles like Kaul and his group follow what Pingree said, as if that is the Gospel truth. They are fighting tooth and nail to see that everybody must accept what Pingree said. But with the discovery of the river Saraswati, and fresh evaluation of some of the papers of the British officers like William Jones and also due to other recent archaeological findings, we now know definitely how those people during the British rule in India manipulated the ancient Indian Chronology. Now we know that the Mahabharata war did take place when the river Saraswati was flowing, ie about 5000 years ago. That is also confirmed by the continuing unbroken Saptarshi calendar, which started in 3077 BCE. Now we know that Astrology

was used by the Indians in the Mahabharata days ie. more that 5000 years ago and the Indians have not learnt astrology from the Greeks. Because of belief in the AIT some Indian scholars tried to temper with the Vedanga Jyotisha but luckily the text survived till this day.

 

What the Rashis are and how they are related to the Nakshatras and which fact makes then Sidereal, have already been given in the quotes from the Puranas I have already given by me.

 

You have asked some questions such as (1) why the Rashis are equal divisions of 30 degrees, (2) what is the purpose of naming the Rashis after the shapes animals, (3) what is the starting point of a Rashi and (4) why Ophicus was ignored. Then you said that by those stars you can also make donkey and Machaina Saanp )snalke which live in gutter), khatmal(bedbugs), Macchar (mosquito) and even your cute monkey. Let me remind you that you have forgotten to add as to why the Nakshatras are equal divisions of 13 degrees and 20 minutes.

 

Your questions on the RshiS and their shapes etc. are beside the main purpose of this thread based on the historical criteria. From that angle in fact I should have advised you to open a separate thread to discuss your those points. It appears that you have got some information but that is not sufficient to understand the Indian Jyotish shastra. For explaining the first three of your questions I shall have to tell you about a Vedic verse and I am sure that you if you are a Kaulian you will be put off by that as the Kaulians do agree to what the Brhadaranyak says about the interpretation of the Vedic verses. Secondly you will have to accept the concept of Yoga-Tara. So if you are a Kaulian then my explanation will go over your head and will be of no use to you. As regards the Ophiuchius you will have also to ask why Claudius Ptolemy in the 2nd century CE also did not include

it in the Zodiac, though he included in his catalogue of stars. As regards you critical observation that you can see so many other animals including your pet monkey on the ecliptic I would advise you to publish a publish a book on that and send that to Mr. Kaul for reviewing.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra wrote:

Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengraRe: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha. Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 6:16 AM

 

 

Respected Sunil Sir, You have said as below :- Quote To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only. Unquote Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in existencedue to those animal shapes generated by cluster of shapes. Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will decide which animal will represent which Rashi. Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of Aries. Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to thoe animals. Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those. By the way by those stars(by which we have made animals), i can also make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs),

machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey. Dinesh Dheengara--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote:sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjya @> Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.vedic_research_ instituteCc: ancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic-jyotishMonday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23 AM Kaulji, 1)Kaulji wrote as follows: Quote Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt. But then you never know, maybe "modern Vedic astrologers" have seen the "paroskhya meaning" of "paroskhya rashi" based "parokshya

predictions" which people like me cannot. Unquote Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings. 2)The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that of animals would that not have been useful to the naked eye astronomical observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would have any alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky? 3)"Bha-chakra" is "Nakshatra-chkra" . Now how can Avtarji say that "Bha-chakra" is the same as

the "Mriga-chakra" ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya [--- On Sun, 6/21/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>[VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.hinducalendarSunday, June 21, 2009, 5:55 AM jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com] Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:43 PM'abhinavagupta'Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha. Shri Sarvesh Tiwariji,Namaskar!You have said, <One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the

connection of zodiac, predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s: apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAHuchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM chatathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya(udyoga parvan) > 1. Pl. give the exact reference in the Udyoga Parvan so that one could check the context of the topic. 2. Is this the only (isolated) reference of Rashis in the Mbh(according to you and not actually!) or do you have other references as well. 3. It maybe of interest to you that in ancient India bha-chakra did not necessarily mean Rashichakra but nakshatra-chakra as well. As such, how can one be sure that it is not nakshatra-chakra that is

being discussed under the title "mrigachakra" . 4. Zodiac is an "imaginary belt" with "imaginary animals" none of which is equal to one another. Those animals were known as constellations and became known as Mesha etc. rashis later. They are actually of Greek origin, whereas nakshatras are of Indian origin. 5. If we take only naksahtras into consideration, presuming that mrigachakra means nakshatra-shakra, forgetting the rashis for a moment, what would that nakshatra-chakra be known as, if not “Zodiac� 5. Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt. But then you never know, maybe "modern Vedic astrologers" have seen the "paroskhya meaning" of "paroskhya rashi" based "parokshya predictions" which people like me cannot. Regards, A K Kaul [Reply to Sarwesh Tiwari’s post (20 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5181 Abhinavagupta, Sarvesh Tiwari wrote: namaste One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac, predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s: apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAHuchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM chatathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya(udyoga parvan) notice the usage of the term "mR^igachakra" which would be the literal meaning of "Zodiac". Also notice that the reference talks of brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s predicting the

imminent victory for the pANDava-s and rout of the kaurava-s on basis of the muhUrta, relative positions of nakShatra-s etc. It also mentions, at least in a third person testimony, of the faith people might already have in this field when these lines were written -- here it says that 'with such prediction yudhiShThira was already considering his objectives met.' While I concur that there is nothing vedic about predictive astrology, I am of the opinion that this business is fairly old, not a total import by Hindus too, and giving too much credit to greek influence is similar to the earlier case of other fields too like the medicine, chemistry, bIjagaNita and philosophy. Warm RegardsSarvesh Tiwari[Reply to Koenraad Elst's post (19 June 2009) athttp://groups. /

group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5178]

[Guest guest]

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya[vedic astrology] Re: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha. Cc: vedic astrology , Abhinavagupta , vedic_research_institute , USBrahmins , WAVES-Vedic Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:28 PM

 

 

Dear Shri Dinesh Dheengra, The main purpose of this thread is to clarify that the Indians knew Astrology long before the Greeks knew. That is why I have showed about the mention of the Rashis in Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha as well as in the Puranas. According to the Veda itself the Veda has both Pratyaksha and Paroksha meanings. Some anti-Hindu people do not believe that the Veda can have Paroksha meaning and they even ridicule this idea thereby they ridicule the Veda itsef, because the Brhadaranyak Upanishad very clearly states that. Vedanga Jyotisha also mentioned Rashi and I have shown that. Till the British ruled India ie. till upto the middle of the twentieth century there was very little opposition to Prof. Max Muller's Aryan Invasion theory (AIT). After proposing AIT, prof Max Muller also proposed a chronology of Ancient Indian History, according to which the

Vedas were written after 14th century BCE and they have also lowered the antiquity of theMahabharata and the Puranas. Taking advantage of that chronology David Pingree proposed that the Indians learnt Jyotish from the Babylonia and Greeks. Some anti-Hindu Greekofiles like Kaul and his group follow what Pingree said, as if that is the Gospel truth. They are fighting tooth and nail to see that everybody must accept what Pingree said. But with the discovery of the river Saraswati, and fresh evaluation of some of the papers of the British officers like William Jones and also due to other recent archaeological findings, we now know definitely how those people during the British rule in India manipulated the ancient Indian Chronology. Now we know that the Mahabharata war did take place when the river Saraswati was flowing, ie about 5000 years ago. That is also confirmed by the continuing unbroken Saptarshi calendar, which

started in 3077 BCE. Now we know that Astrology was used by the Indians in the Mahabharata days ie. more that 5000years ago and the Indians have not learnt astrology from the Greeks. Because of belief in the AIT some Indian scholars tried to temper with the Vedanga Jyotisha but luckily the text survived till this day. What the Rashis are and how they are related to the Nakshatras and which fact makes then Sidereal, have already been given in the quotes from the Puranas I have already given by me. You have asked some questions such as (1) why the Rashis are equal divisions of 30 degrees, (2) what is the purpose of naming the Rashis after the shapes animals, (3) what is the starting point of a Rashi and (4) why Ophicus was ignored. Then you said that by those stars you can also make donkey and Machaina Saanp )snalke which live in gutter), khatmal(bedbugs) , Macchar (mosquito) and even

your cute monkey. Let me remind you that you have forgotten to add as to why the Nakshatras are equal divisions of 13 degrees and 20 minutes. Your questions on the RshiS and their shapes etc. are beside the main purpose of this thread based on the historical criteria. From that angle in fact I should have advised you to open a separate thread to discuss your those points. It appears that you have got some information but that is not sufficient to understand the Indian Jyotish shastra. For explaining the first three of your questions I shall have to tell you about a Vedic verse and I am sure that you if you are a Kaulian you will be put off by that as the Kaulians do agree to what the Brhadaranyak says about the interpretation of the Vedic verses. Secondly you will have to accept the concept of Yoga-Tara. So if you are a Kaulian then my explanation will go over your head and

will be of no use to you. As regards the Ophiuchius you will have also to ask why Claudius Ptolemy in the 2nd century CE also did not include it in the Zodiac, though he included in his catalogue of stars.As regards you critical observation that you can see so many other animals including your pet monkey on the ecliptic I would advise you to publish a publish a book on that and send that to Mr. Kaul for reviewing. Best wishes, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra@ .in> wrote:Dinesh Dheengra <dineshdheengra@

.in>Re: Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 6:16 AMRespected Sunil Sir, You have said as below :- Quote To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only. Unquote Sir then why our Rashis are of equal divisions ie of 30 degrees if those came in existencedue to those animal shapes generated by cluster of shapes. Some animals are overlapping each other at same longitudes then how we will decide which animal will represent which Rashi. Sir Please also let us know which point will you take as starting point of

Aries. Why all rashis are not meeting starting and ending point according to thoe animals. Sir in those animals, ophichus was also there but why ppl have ignored those. By the way by those stars(by which we have made animals), i can also make donkey and Machaina Saanp(snake which lives in gutter), khatmal(bed bugs), machhar(mosquito) and my cute Monkey. Dinesh Dheengara--- On Mon, 22/6/09, sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjy a @> wrote:sunil_bhattacharjya @ <sunil_bhattacharjy a @> Re: [VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.vedic_research_ instituteCc: ancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic-jyotishMonday, 22 June, 2009, 2:23

AM Kaulji, 1)Kaulji wrote as follows: Quote Personally, I do not think that the Vedic Seers were that foolish to have advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt. But then you never know, maybe "modern Vedic astrologers" have seen the "paroskhya meaning" of "paroskhya rashi" based "parokshya predictions" which people like me cannot. Unquote Yes, my sympathies are with you and it is true that all people cannot understand the Vedas and sometimes get peeved when they hear of the Paroksha meaning of the Vedic verses and sometimes even ridicule that Vedas have secret meanings, but what can be done as the facts are like that. Brhadaranyaka Upanishad does clearly state about the Paroksha meanings. 2)The Rashis are groups of stars and if the formation or shape resembles that of animals would that not have been

useful to the naked eye astronomical observers? What alternative ways can one suggest to distinguish in the sky the different groups of stars in the Rashis? Can Avtarji would have any alternative suggestions if he dislikes the imaginary animals in the sky? 3)"Bha-chakra" is "Nakshatra-chkra" . Now how can Avtarji say that "Bha-chakra" is the same as the "Mriga-chakra" ? To my knowledge the animal shapes have been ascribed to the Rashis only. May be the other scholars like Sreenadhji, Vinay Jhaji, Chandrahariji, Sunil Nairji can also express their views on this. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya [--- On Sun, 6/21/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>[VRI] FW: Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.hinducalendarSunday, June 21, 2009, 5:55

AM jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com] Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:43 PM'abhinavagupta'Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha. Shri Sarvesh Tiwariji,Namaskar!You have said, <One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac, predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s: apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAHuchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM divyAH prashnA mR^igachakrA muhUrtA kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM chatathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya(udyoga parvan) > 1. Pl. give the exact reference in the Udyoga Parvan so that one could

check the context of the topic. 2. Is this the only (isolated) reference of Rashis in the Mbh(according to you and not actually!) or do you have other references as well. 3. It maybe of interest to you that in ancient India bha-chakra did not necessarily mean Rashichakra but nakshatra-chakra as well. As such, how can one be sure that it is not nakshatra-chakra that is being discussed under the title "mrigachakra" . 4. Zodiac is an "imaginary belt" with "imaginary animals" none of which is equal to one another. Those animals were known as constellations and became known as Mesha etc. rashis later. They are actually of Greek origin, whereas nakshatras are of Indian origin. 5. If we take only naksahtras into consideration, presuming that mrigachakra means nakshatra-shakra, forgetting the rashis for a moment, what would that nakshatra-chakra be known as, if not “Zodiac� 5. Personally, I do not think that the Vedic

Seers were that foolish to have advised to make predictions from imaginary animals of an imaginary belt. But then you never know, maybe "modern Vedic astrologers" have seen the "paroskhya meaning" of "paroskhya rashi" based "parokshya predictions" which people like me cannot. Regards, A K Kaul [Reply to Sarwesh Tiwari’s post (20 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5181 Abhinavagupta, Sarvesh Tiwari wrote: namaste One clear reference in The Great bhArata concerning the connection of zodiac, predictice astrology and brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s: apyevaM no brAhmaNAH santi vR^iddhA bahushrutAH shIlavantaH kulInAH sA.nvatsarA jyotiShi chApi yuktA nakShatrayogeShu cha nishchayaGYAHuchchAvacha. n daivayukta.n rahasyaM divyAH prashnA

mR^igachakrA muhUrtA kShayaM mahAnta.n kurusR^i~njayAnAM nivedayante pANDavAnA.n jayaM chatathA hi no manyate.ajAtashatru H sa.nsiddhArtho dviShatAM nigrahAya(udyoga parvan) notice the usage of the term "mR^igachakra" which would be the literal meaning of "Zodiac". Also notice that the reference talks of brAhmaNa jyotiShi-s predicting the imminent victory for the pANDava-s and rout of the kaurava-s on basis of the muhUrta, relative positions of nakShatra-s etc. It also mentions, at least in a third person testimony, of the faith people might already have in this field when these lines were written -- here it says that 'with such prediction yudhiShThira was already considering his objectives met.' While I concur that there is nothing vedic about predictive astrology, I am of the opinion that this business is fairly old, not a total import by

Hindus too, and giving too much credit to greek influence is similar to the earlier case of other fields too like the medicine, chemistry, bIjagaNita and philosophy. Warm RegardsSarvesh Tiwari[Reply to Koenraad Elst's post (19 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5178]