[VRI] FW: Reference of Rashis in the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha!

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

I am surprised that  Mr. Kaul preferred to see the meaning of the Zodiac in

the Oxford dictionary  and forgot to see the meaning the Rashi and the Chakra

or together as the Rashichakra in a Sanskrit dictionary. Further he did mnot

kniow that there is a lot of Astronomy in theFifth veda. Further he did not know

that in the ancient times one did not have any separate birth certificate other

than the horoscope. The horoscope is after all astronomical and its subjective

interpretation is only astrology.

 

While telling about his tryst with Jyotisha he has told us that his Moon was

exalted but did not tell us  whether he was born in an amavashya  or not and

what other grahas aspected  the  Moon and in fact the positon of the Moon and

the other grahas in his Lagna-kundali. Then he also did not tell us how much

importance he gave to Purushartha  and if he waited to see the effects of the

stars on an unenterprising man.

 

Mr. Kaul does not know that N.R.Waradpande was the first to show the presence of

several Rashis in the Veda.  Dr. P.V.Vartak also found a few. I only found

another Rashi. Mr. Kaul still ignores that Mina Rashi is mentioned in the

Vedanga jyotisha as it suits him. He talks about the opinion of Dr. Suresh

Chandra Mishra that the  verse mentioning the Mina rashi in the Vedanga

Jyotisha as spurious. Then why did Dr. Mishra did not delete it if he was so

sanguine about it. Mr. Kaul would not ask these questions as the statement of

Dr. Mishra suits him.

 

On what basis Mr. Kaul gives the dates of the The Atharva Veda Parishishta and

Atharva Jyotisha as 5th century BCE? Is it not to suit his theories?

 

Mr. Kaul does not know that the Mahabharata does mention the Brahma rashi with

the Abhijit and the Sravana Nkshatras. Does Mr. kaul expect that rashi ramain

the same when according to Mahabharata the Abhijit fell from the Ecliptic?

Sravana became a part of the Makar rashi when the ecliptic was redivided among

the 27 Nakshatras and these Rashi compositions are given in the Vamana Purana.

Vamana purana clearly nindicates that the Rashis are Nirayana by giving the

Nakshatra compositions of the rashis  yet in order to save his face Mr. kaul

insists that the rashis in the Puranas  are Sayana.

 

Mr. Kaul says that nobody knows as to from which star Mesha rashi or Ashwini

nakshatra starts or should start. The Vamana purana gives the composition of the

Rashis. If one puts the 27 nakshatras in the 12 Rashis according to what the

Vamana purana says one would not have any doubt on that. Has Mr. Kaul tried

that? When the middle of the 14th nakshatra is 180 degree should then anybody

have doubt as to where the 0 (Zero) degree of the Mesha Rashi will

start?   Even  Mrigashira and Dhanistha are also  equally  divided among

two rashis. No scholars should have any doubt on rashi divisions.  Somewhat

similar procedure was adopted by Claudius Ptolemy for the Rashis. He identified

the Aldebaran at the centre of Taurus. Mr. Kaul does not know about the

wisdom  of naming the Rashis after the animals. There must be some way of

naming the rashi divisions and what could be better than naming their shape

after some animals. Can Mr Kaul suggest

some better way?  Further there is a difference.  The Nakshatras are named

after inanimate objects and the rashis are named after the animate  objects.

 

He  says that the 12 divisions of the ecliptic  are  the  12 months .

But it is common sense that the ecliptic has the 27 Nakshatras and they

will  also  automatically get divided among the 12 rashis.  

 

Sincerely,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

--- On Mon, 6/29/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

[VRI] FW: Reference of Rashis in the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha!

hinducalendar

Monday, June 29, 2009, 6:29 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

Monday, June 29, 2009 6:50 PM

'abhinavagupta'

Reference of Rashis in the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha!

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

Namaskar!

Many thanks for your response. 

You have said

 “After reading this mantra and understanding it, you have to answer this

question: a) Did Vedic Hindus wait for 1000 years for the arrival of Alexandrian

Greeks in 323 B.C to name the 12 " spokes " of the Sun's journey?â€

It is really an interesting question with far reaching ramifications.  As such,

pl. bear with me for a longish answer!

My tryst with jyotisha

I have been hearing and talking about Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis from my

childhood!  My maternal grandfather would often say that because my moon was in

Vrishabaha, I would be undergoing “Badhsarwar†(i.e. Sade-Sati--- 7.5

years’ “elarataâ€!) whenever Shani transited Mesha, Vrisha and Mithuna. 

There were discussions with other jyotishis about the lordship of rashis and so

on.

When I was without a job for a considerable period in J & K, I consulted quite a

few jyotishis there, and all I was told was that my so and so planet was neecha

or my so and so planet was uchha and so on and as soon as such and such dasha

ended, the problem would end!   I had been to the famous Brighu Samhita-walas

on Railway Road, Jullundur, and then Hoshiarpur, and they even traced my birth

chart in the mass of documents that they had.  My previous birth also was

“revealed†to me by those samhita-walas, but they did not agree with one

another on that count either---According to Jullunder Brighu Jyotishi I was a

king in my previous birth but had not done Puja to Shiva, and that was why I was

“sufferingâ€.  As per Hoshiarpur Brighu Jyotishi, I was a priest in a temple

and had taken wine in temple premises and that was the reason for my suffering!

Besides, the remedial measures advised by both the Brighu Jyotishis were nothing

but ludicrous!

Thus, till a few years back, I was myself obsessed with these Mesha etc. rashis

and Mangal, Shani etc. planets! However, my personal experience with all those

bhavishyavanis of all those jyotishis and Samhita-walas has not been a fruitful

one since they were hardly any correct than a mere chance.   To have a

first-hand knowledge of jyotisha shastra, I learnt it by heart---both the Indian

and Western systems.  Some of my bhavishyavanis also did prove correct to the

extent that I was awarded the famous NOSTRADAMUS award, sponsored by EXPRESS

STAR TELLER, by none other than His Holiness Jagadguru Jayendra Saraswati of

Kanchi Kamakoti!

As such, you can rest assured that you are discussing the issue with some one

who knows what he is talking about.

Astronomically Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis are non-exisent! Thus

Having got disappointed with predictions, and having been a science student with

a keen interest in astronomy, I wanted to find the scientific reason behind the

failure of bhavishyavanis, as it was known as “science of astrology†and was

supposed to be based on astronomy.

I was peeved to see that rashis are non-existent in any astronomical work!  It

was also made very clear in astronomy books that there were no twelve equal

divisions of the zodiac! On top of this, the definition of the zodiac itself, as

per Oxford English Dictionary, is, “An imaginary belt in the heavens about

18° wide, through which the ecliptic passes centrally, and which forms the

background of the motions of the sun, moon, and planets; it is divided into

twelve equal parts of 30° called signs of the zodiac, named from the

constellations that once corresponded to them but do so no longerâ€.  And the

definition of ecliptic, as per the same dictionary, is, “The apparent path of

sun’s motion among the fixed starsâ€.  The literal meaning of the word

Zodiac is actually a derivative of the Greek word “Zodiakos†i.e. “circle

of animalsâ€.

Here is the conundrum:  It is common knowledge that the sun does not move

(revolve) round the earth but it is the other way round!

Thus you can say that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis are twelve imaginary

“animal†divisions of a still more imaginary belt which is supposed to be

the “apparent path†of a body that never moves---at least not in the sense

that it is supposed to be moving!

Mesha etc. rashis have no utility besides predictive gimmicks and there is

nothing more ridiculous than “jyotisha  scienceâ€!

On pondering on all these definitions, I was constrained to try to understand

the purpose of these Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, especially since no astronomy

book every used them.

And all I could understand was that except for being used by astrologers, some

of whom call themselves “Vedic astrologersâ€, others “tantric

astrologers†and still others as “occultists†and so on, Mesha, Vrisha etc

rashis have absolutely no use and purpose!

Come to think of it:  It is said that Mesha (the imaginary twelfth part,

supposed to be resembling a Ram, of an imaginary belt!) is owned by Mangal i.e.

Mars!  In spite of having read a lot of science fiction stories like “War of

the Worlds†about Mars and Martian people, the sad fact remains that it is

after all an inanimate roaming body---known as a planet just as the earth is! 

Astronomically the planet Mars has absolutely nothing resembling the Mangal of 

jyotishis!  It is as hapless and helpless a planet as any other in facing the

assaults of satellites and what not!  And to say that it “owns†an

imaginary part of an imaginary belt is actually the real (and not apparent!)

proof of jyotishis having gone off their senses!  And since most of us are

jyotihsis, it means most of us are still more gullible than scientific in spite

of living in the 21st century!

Let us take the case of the Moon, which is said to be in Vrishaba in my case! 

It is supposed to be exalted in that sign!  Now, as you must be aware, Moon has

been assaulted (invaded!) the most by people like you and me!  We are even

thinking of colonizing it!  That means, maybe after a few years, I may actually

own a part of that planet (?!), if I have that much of wealth and am still

around till then!

Now this Moon is supposed to be the owner of the fourth imaginary part (of the

same imaginary belt!) known as sign Karkata---a Crab-----yet another animal! 

And the Moon being what it is---a dead and wandering body---a pigmy as compared

to giants like Jupiter etc.---is supposed to own as much as one-twelfth portion

of the entire “eclipticâ€---nay even the zodiac—the imaginary belt of

animals!  It is also supposed to be exalted as well as mulatrikona- --whatever

that may mean----in the second imaginary division i.e. Vrishaba (The Bull---yet

another animal) of the same imaginary belt!  It is also supposed to be

neecha---debilitate d in the imaginary division of Vrischika (Scorpion---

another animal) of the same imaginary belt owned by none other than Mars! 

There are thus several inanimate planets like Brihaspati, Shani etc. which own

two imaginary “equal divisions†of “unequal animals†like Ram and

Scorpion of the imaginary belt known as

zodiac!  And these inanimate wandering bodies are also supposed to have enmity

or friendship with one another!  Moon is the friend of Mercury, but Mercury is

its enemy!  Mars is the friend of the sun but an enemy of Saturn and so on!

None of the planets has astronomically anything resembling the qualities of

planets adumbrated in jyotisha shastras!

Lunar nodes are mathematical points astronomically, without any existence

whatsoever, but astrologically they are the most dreaded ones, and Kethu, the

Southern Node of the Moon, is said to be mokshakarka- ---dispenser of

Mukti---Acme of our lives according to all the Vedas etc.

And even these mathematical points are said to own Kanya (Virign!) and Mina

(fishes) rashis!

Then on top of it, we have to divide that imaginary “Rams†and “Bullâ€

etc. further into imaginary sub-divisions like nakshatras, dreshkanas,

saptamshas, trimshamshas and even shashtyamshas i.e. one-sixtieth part of the

twelfth part of the imaginary animal!  And each shashtyamsha will be having an

ownership by one or the other planet like Shani, Brihaspati etc. etc.

Then the results of my karma will be dispensed by these inanimate owners of

imaginary divisions through one of the Dasha-bhuktis like Vimshotari, Ashtotari,

Yogini, Kala-chakra, Manduka, Pluta, Tribhona etc. etc. etc.---thirty six of

them! These are besides the one adumbrated by Varaha Mihira in his Brihat

Jatakam.

Can there be anything more ridiculous and laughable than such a “scienceâ€

that you call jyotisha and that is based on Rams and Bulls etc. etc.?

Vedic seers were no fools to be taken in by predictive gimmicks!

Being a fan of Dr. B. V. Raman, this discovery of non-existence or Rashis

scientifically made me mad because everybody was talking of “Vedic

astrologyâ€, which means there must have been rashis and planets in the

Vedas!  I decided to take the bull by the horns and call astronomers liars and

prove to them that the Vedic seers had talked about nothing but Rashis and

planets in all the four Vedas! I went assiduously through all the four Vedas! 

However, I had to draw a blank since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc.

Rashis there.  The same fact was confirmed by S. B. Dikshit in his magnum opus

“History of Indian astronomyâ€.

Let us see how:

The first indigenous astronomical work that we have available as on date is

Lagadha’s Rik-Jyotisham.  There is also a slightly later and larger version

of the same work known as Yajur Jyotisham. They are supposed to be of an era of

around 1400 BCE.

Both these works neither talk of Mesha etc. Rashis nor of Mangal, Shani etc.

planets.  Why?

Simply because no astronomical work actually requires any Mesha etc. rashis for

determining the phenomena like Solstices, Equinoxes or Madhu, Madhava etc.

months, Krittika etc. nakshatras and so on, i.e. the main ingredients required

for deciding the suitable timings for yajnyas etc., for which purpose these

works i.e. Rik and Yajur Jyotisham, were “createdâ€.

All the scholars declare in unison that there are no rashis in the Vedas and the

VJ etc.

Except for a “Parokshya Professorâ€, nobody has as yet “seen†any Rashis

in any of the Vedas or these astronomical works, but the claim of that

“Professor†also is doubtful that he has “seen†Mina Rashi in the fifth

mantra of the Yajur Jyotisha! Even the translator cum commentator, Dr. Suresh

Chandra Mishra, Jyotish-acharya, of the Hindi edition of 2005 of the Vedanga

Jyotisha, published by a publisher of Darya Ganj, New Delhi, has clarified it in

no uncertain terms on page 50 that that mantra is spurious, an interpolation, an

addition by some “useless and good for nothing fellow, which mars the complete

sense of the entire workâ€!    Dr. Mishra has categorically clarified that

there were no rashis in India till the time of  the VJ.

That impugned mantra is not available in any edition of the Vedanga Jyotisha

that has not called it as spurious or an interpolation, whereas Dikshit has not

discussed that mantra at all in his “Bharatiya Jyotishaâ€.

Indigenous jyotisha works are nakshatra (and not rashi) based.

Then we have indigenous works on predictive astrology of pre-Surya Sidhanta era,

known as Atharva-Veda- Parishishita and another disputed work known as Atharva

Jyotisha or Atma Jyotisha.  Both these works talk a lot of Mangal, Shani etc.

planets but only vis-à-vis Krittika etc. nakshatras and not Mesha, Vrisha etc.

Rashis!  They are of about 5th century BCE.

No weekdays (varas) in any of the Veda or the VJ etc.

It may be news to you that we do not find any mention of any weekdays like

Chandravara or Mangalvara etc. in any of the Vedas or the VJ or the Atharva-Veda

Parishishta nor, much to the chagrin of jyotishis, in any of the Puranas, least

of all the itihasas, either!  The weekdays also are direct imports from some

other country---probably Greece—in around fifth century BCE!

No Observatory uses Mesha etc. rashis

I do not know whether you know that no Observatory the world over,  whether

Greenwich or NASA, even our Positional Astronomy Centre at Kolkatta, talks even

obliquely of any equal divisions of Aries, Taurus etc. astrological signs

(Rashis) in any of its works!  The planetary longitudes given by these

observatories in their ephemerides are in degrees from 0.00001 to 359.99999

degrees, and latitude North or South, or in Right Ascensions (Hours, mts.

Seconds) and Declinations!  In other words, no astronomical body has any use

for Mesha etc. rashis!

Rashis are found for the first time in the Surya Sidhanta

It is for the first time that we come across Mesha etc. rashis in the Surya

Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika!  And that Surya Sidhanta is by none other than

Maya the mlechha!  A Greek jyotishi!  And that makes the cat out of the bag!

Vedic Seers were not imported Vamadevas and therefore, did not need rashis at

all!

So the simple answer to your question as to “Did Vedic Hindus wait for 1000

years for the arrival of Alexandrian Greeks in 323 B.C to name the 12 " spokes "

of the Sun's journey?†is that the Vedic Hindus were real scientists and they

did not believe in imaginary twelve equal animal divisions of an imaginary belt

which have absolutely no scientific value or use for any purpose and which are

supposed to be owned by inanimate bodies like Mangal, Shani etc.  Since the

Vedic Seers, unlike videshi “Vamadevasâ€, never believed in predictive

gimmicks, they did not need the curse known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis!  As

such, there was no need for the Vedic seers to touch Rashis even with a barge

pole!  They had already named the twelve months of the year, which you call

“spokes of the sun’s journeyâ€, as Tapah, Tapasya etc.

That is why Acharya Lagadha also has not touched predictive gimmicks at all! 

It is only around fifth/sixth century BCE, that we hear about planetary

predictive gimmicks but that also is only vis-à-vis nakshatras and not Mesha

etc. Rashis!  And that is why all such “jugglers†were known as

“nakshatra-soochis†and/or “nakshatra-jeevis†and not “Rashi

suchakas†then.

Similarly, except for the “Parokshya Professor†nobody has “seen†Mesha

etc. Rashis in the Mahabharata either, simply because whatever phalita jyotisha

had crept into Indian ethos under the influence of foreign elements till then

was only vis-à-vis nakshatras and there were no Mesha etc. Rashis!

The real well wishers of the Hindus like the Manu, the Bhishma Pitamaha, Atri

Rishi etc. etc. have warned in no uncertain terms that the jyotishis who were

known as nakshatra soochis were to be debarred from any holy function and were

to be treated as chandalas even if they were Brahmins!  Chanakya has gone to

the extent of warning a king that by making enquiries about naksshatras the king

would deviate from his aim and thus be defeated by his enemies!

Am I “Twins†or “Crab†or a “Bullâ€? NO, “I am Thatâ€

My grandpa told me that since my moon was in Vrishabha, I was a Bull!   He

also told me that my sun was in Gemini, which means I was Twins.  But according

to zero ayanamshawallas, I am neither a Bull nor Twins but a Crab!

My God, it appears that I am just an amalgam of all the animals of the animal

kingdom, as per these jyotishis!  But then so must be the case with you and

everybody else!  My eternal gratitude to the Vedic seers who did not call

people like you and me a Crab or a Scorpion etc., but declared it openly,

“Tat-tvam-asi- Shvetaketuâ€Â  --- “You are That Infinite Himself, O

Shvetaketu†(or O AKK, for that matter!). Is it as to why I should be angry

with them and pity them?  Or is it the reason for your being miffed that the

Vedic Hindus did not call you a “scorpion†or a “pitcher�

“Twelve spokes†in the Vedas were not twelve Rashis

Thus the â€Twelve spokes†of the Vedas were not twelve rashis. They were

twelve months. It will be clear from the following instances: There are several

references to figure “twelveâ€Â  vis-à-vis Samvtsaras in the Vedas. 

“Tasmad-adityah shan-maso dakshinenaiti shad-uttarena†(Taitiriya Samhita

6/5/2) “That is why the sun moves for six months through Uttarayana and for

six (months) through Dakshinayanaâ€.  It is very clear that the figure

“twelve†is talking of months and not rashis!

“Dvadasha masah panchartavo hemanta shishiryoh samasena†(Aitreya Brahman

1/1) i.e. “Twelve months comprise five seasons of which Hemanta and Shishira

together form oneâ€.  Here also the “masah†(and not rashi) has been

clearly mentioned.

Similarly, in the Rig-Veda itself, there is the most famous mantra (1/25/8),

“veda maso drita vratah…†(Pl. see 1999b.pdf in files section) that talks

of twelve solar months specifically and also a thirteenth lunar adhika masa! 

There are also several other mantras giving different names of the months, the

most famous ones being, “madhushchai madhavaschai vasantikav ritu…â€

(Taitiriya Samhita 4.4.11)

Had you perused 48th mantra of the same Sukta of the Rig-veda that you have

quoted, you would not have got so impatient about attributing the creation of

Mesha etc. Rashis to the Vedic seers.  Here is that mantra (1/164/48)

“Dwadsha pradhayashchakram ekam, treeninabhyani ka u tach-chiketai, tasmin

sakam trishata na shankavo arpitah shashtir na chalachalasahâ€.

And this is how Dikshit has interpreted this mantra and also the one quoted by

you,  in his “History of Indian Astronomy†page 18 of Part – I, “The

wheel of time having twelve spokes revolves round the heavens, but it does not

wear out.  Oh Agni, 720 pairs of sons ride this wheel.  “Twelve

spoke-boards, one wheel three navels.  Who understands these?  In it there are

360 shankus (rods) put in like pegs, which do not get loosenedâ€.  According

to Dikshit, “It is clear that this curious description refers to year, the 12

months are 12 spokes of the wheel and the 360 days are the 360 nails.  The day

and night is a couple of 360 such couples give the number 720â€.

Thus, in a nutshell, Vedic seers, mercifully, and much to the chagrin of

“Vedic astrologers†did not need the curses known as Mesha, Vrisha etc.

rashis since the rashis have no other purpose except to tell every Tom, Dick and

Harry as to when his “Sade sati†or his “Kalasarpa-Dosha†etc. etc. are

going to begin or end!

Rashis in the Puranas are a ditto copy of rashis in the sidhantas

If you peruse the document “1999b.pdf†in files section, you will be

surprised to see the similarity of nomenclature as well as definition of Mesha

etc. Rashis in the sidhantas and Puranas!  All the puranas talk in one voice

that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year i.e. Uttarayana,

Dakshiniyana, another name of the Karkata Sankranti and so on.  All the

sidhantas also talk of the nakshatra chakra starting from “zero†degrees

just as they talk of Mesha etc. rashis starting from zero degrees!  Thus all

the sidhantas and even Puranas have clubbed nakshatras with the so called sayana

rashis, and that is what the Vayu Purana is also reflecting in 5.2   Thus the

rashis in Puranas are an after thought after the introduction of Surya Sidhanta

by Maya the mlechha in India.

The confusion named Mesha etc. Rashis

We must also not forget that in spite of having been using Mesha, Vrisha etc.

Rashis ever since the advent of Maya the mlechha, i.e. for about 2000 years,

“Vedic Astrologers†are still fighting among themselves like Kilkenny cats

as to which ayanamsha they must use for making “more accurate

predictionsâ€. 

The “Paroskhya Professorâ€, like all the other “Vedic astrologers†says

that the Vedic zodiac is sidereal i.e. it starts from some star, but nobody, not

even the jyotishis themselves, or the “Parokshya Professor†himself, know as

to from which star Mesha Rashi or Ashvini nakshatra starts or should start!

Thus, do you mean to say that the Vedic seers also should have been groping in

darkness for the starting point of the “imaginary belt†comprising

“animals and nothing but animals�

“Vedic astrology†has rent us asunder from our fasts and festivals etc.

And the net result of all this has been that, thanks to Mesha, Vrisha etc.

rashis, we have forgotten the Udagayana and Vishuvas etc., the real Vedic

phenomena, and are celebrating like mad non-existent Lahiri and Ramana and

Muladhara Makar Sankrantis and so on!  In other words, in spite of crying from

housetops that Puranas are talking of Mesha etc. Rashis and sankrantis, we are

not celebrating even Pauranic sankrantis!  Why?

Either the “Vedic astrologers†are blind like bats about the knowledge of

the puranas or they are deliberately celebrating a Lahiri Makar or Karka etc.

sankranti, since if they celebrate Makar Sankranti as the day of Uttarayana, as

per all the Puranas, they will lose their sinful crumbs as nobody will believe

their astrological gimmicks then!

And that is why I go on repeating, “We do not need enemies to ruin our dharma,

so long as we have friendly ‘Vedic astrologers’ aroundâ€.  It is really a

sad thing that a scholar like you should plead for non-existent rashis in the

Vedas, instead of fighting a dharma-yudha against these “Vedic astrologersâ€.

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

PS

The tail piece, yet the most important fact, of the above discussion is that no

jyotishi and/or samhita-wala etc. etc. had ever even hinted that a time would

come when I would expose the “feet of clay†of “Vedic astrologersâ€. 

Tut, tut, tut!

 

[Response to Shivraj Khokra's post (25 June 2009) at

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5214]

***                                      Â\

 Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 

****                                      \

              

****                                      \

               ***

Abhinavagupta, Shivraj Khokra wrote:

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:< If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions " sun

having twelve spokes inhis wheel " .You have given neither the original mantra in

full nor a complete translationof the mantra. Why?

Here is the mantra 1.164.11 in Sanskrit:

 

दà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¦à¤¶à¤¾à¤°à¤‚ नहि

तजà¥à¤œà¤°à¤¾à¤¯

वरà¥à¤µà¤°à¥à¤¤à¤¿ चकà¥à¤°à¤‚

परि

दà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤®à¥ƒà¤¤à¤¸à¥à¤¯ ।

आ पà¥à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤¾ अगà¥à¤¨à¥‡

मिथà¥à¤¨à¤¾à¤¸à¥‹ अतà¥à¤°

सपà¥à¤¤ शतानि

विंशतिशà¥à¤š

तसà¥à¤¥à¥à¤ƒ

॥११॥

Here is the link to Sanskrit version of 1.164.11:

http://wikisource. org/wiki/ %E0%A4%8B% E0%A4%97% E0%A5%8D% E0%A4%B5% E0%A5%87%

E0%A4%A\

6:_%E0%A4%B8% E0%A5%82% E0%A4%95% E0%A5%8D% E0%A4%A4% E0%A4%82_ %E0%A5%A7.

%E0%A5%A7% E0\

%A5%AC%E0%A5% AA

Same mantra in English in case Sanskrit does not render on your screen (Try

turning on Unicode UTF-8 Character Encoding for your browser. For Fire-Fox

Mozilla based browsers it us under the " View " option)

11 dvaádashaaraM nahí táj járaaya várvarti cakrám pári

dyaám Rtásya

aá putraá agne mithunaáso átra saptá shataáni viMshatísh ca

tasthuH

 

Translation:

1.164.11 The twelve-spoked wheel, of the sun revolves round the heavens, and

never (tends) to decay; seven hundred and twenty children in pairs, Agni, abide

in it.After reading this mantra and understanding it, you have to answer

this question:

a) Did Vedic Hindus wait for 1000 years for the arrival of Alexandrian Greeks in

323 B.C to name the 12 " spokes " of the Sun's journey?

[Response to Avtar's post (23 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5207]

5214 June 25

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

I am surprised that Mr. Kaul preferred to see the meaning of the Zodiac in the Oxford dictionary and forgot to see the meaning the Rashi and the Chakra or together as the Rashichakra in a Sanskrit dictionary. Further he did mnot kniow that there is a lot of Astronomy in theFifth veda. Further he did not know that in the ancient times one did not have any separate birth certificate other than the horoscope. The horoscope is after all astronomical and its subjective interpretation is only astrology.

 

While telling about his tryst with Jyotisha he has told us that his Moon was exalted but did not tell us whether he was born in an amavashya or not and what other grahas aspected the Moon and in fact the positon of the Moon and the other grahas in his Lagna-kundali. Then he also did not tell us how much importance he gave to Purushartha and if he waited to see the effects of the stars on an unenterprising man.

 

Mr. Kaul does not know that N.R.Waradpande was the first to show the presence of several Rashis in the Veda. Dr. P.V.Vartak also found a few. I only found another Rashi. Mr. Kaul still ignores that Mina Rashi is mentioned in the Vedanga jyotisha as it suits him. He talks about the opinion of Dr. Suresh Chandra Mishra that the verse mentioning the Mina rashi in the Vedanga Jyotisha as spurious. Then why did Dr. Mishra did not delete it if he was so sanguine about it. Mr. Kaul would not ask these questions as the statement of Dr. Mishra suits him.

 

On what basis Mr. Kaul gives the dates of the The Atharva Veda Parishishta and Atharva Jyotisha as 5th century BCE? Is it not to suit his theories?

 

Mr. Kaul does not know that the Mahabharata does mention the Brahma rashi with the Abhijit and the Sravana Nkshatras. Does Mr. kaul expect that rashi ramain the same when according to Mahabharata the Abhijit fell from the Ecliptic? Sravana became a part of the Makar rashi when the ecliptic was redivided among the 27 Nakshatras and these Rashi compositions are given in the Vamana Purana. Vamana purana clearly nindicates that the Rashis are Nirayana by giving the Nakshatra compositions of the rashis yet in order to save his face Mr. kaul insists that the rashis in the Puranas are Sayana.

 

Mr. Kaul says that nobody knows as to from which star Mesha rashi or Ashwini nakshatra starts or should start. The Vamana purana gives the composition of the Rashis. If one puts the 27 nakshatras in the 12 Rashis according to what the Vamana purana says one would not have any doubt on that. Has Mr. Kaul tried that? When the middle of the 14th nakshatra is 180 degree should then anybody have doubt as to where the 0 (Zero) degree of the Mesha Rashi will start? Even Mrigashira and Dhanistha are also equally divided among two rashis. No scholars should have any doubt on rashi divisions. Somewhat similar procedure was adopted by Claudius Ptolemy for the Rashis. He identified the Aldebaran at the centre of Taurus. Mr. Kaul does not know about the wisdom of naming the Rashis after the animals. There must be some way of naming the rashi divisions and what could be better

than naming their shape after some animals. Can Mr Kaul suggest some better way? Further there is a difference. The Nakshatras are named after inanimate objects and the rashis are named after the animate objects.

 

He says that the 12 divisions of the ecliptic are the 12 months . But it is common sense that the ecliptic has the 27 Nakshatras and they will also automatically get divided among the 12 rashis.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

--- On Mon, 6/29/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

jyotirved <jyotirved[VRI] FW: Reference of Rashis in the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha!hinducalendar Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 6:29 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com] Monday, June 29, 2009 6:50 PM'abhinavagupta'Reference of Rashis in the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha!

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

Namaskar!

Many thanks for your response.

You have said

“After reading this mantra and understanding it, you have to answer this question: a) Did Vedic Hindus wait for 1000 years for the arrival of Alexandrian Greeks in 323 B.C to name the 12 "spokes" of the Sun's journey?â€

It is really an interesting question with far reaching ramifications. As such, pl. bear with me for a longish answer!

My tryst with jyotisha

I have been hearing and talking about Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis from my childhood! My maternal grandfather would often say that because my moon was in Vrishabaha, I would be undergoing “Badhsarwar†(i.e. Sade-Sati--- 7.5 years’ “elarataâ€!) whenever Shani transited Mesha, Vrisha and Mithuna. There were discussions with other jyotishis about the lordship of rashis and so on.

When I was without a job for a considerable period in J & K, I consulted quite a few jyotishis there, and all I was told was that my so and so planet was neecha or my so and so planet was uchha and so on and as soon as such and such dasha ended, the problem would end! I had been to the famous Brighu Samhita-walas on Railway Road, Jullundur, and then Hoshiarpur, and they even traced my birth chart in the mass of documents that they had. My previous birth also was “revealed†to me by those samhita-walas, but they did not agree with one another on that count either---According to Jullunder Brighu Jyotishi I was a king in my previous birth but had not done Puja to Shiva, and that was why I was “sufferingâ€. As per Hoshiarpur Brighu Jyotishi, I was a priest in a temple and had taken wine in temple premises and that was the reason for my suffering!

Besides, the remedial measures advised by both the Brighu Jyotishis were nothing but ludicrous!

Thus, till a few years back, I was myself obsessed with these Mesha etc. rashis and Mangal, Shani etc. planets! However, my personal experience with all those bhavishyavanis of all those jyotishis and Samhita-walas has not been a fruitful one since they were hardly any correct than a mere chance. To have a first-hand knowledge of jyotisha shastra, I learnt it by heart---both the Indian and Western systems. Some of my bhavishyavanis also did prove correct to the extent that I was awarded the famous NOSTRADAMUS award, sponsored by EXPRESS STAR TELLER, by none other than His Holiness Jagadguru Jayendra Saraswati of Kanchi Kamakoti!

As such, you can rest assured that you are discussing the issue with some one who knows what he is talking about.

Astronomically Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis are non-exisent! Thus

Having got disappointed with predictions, and having been a science student with a keen interest in astronomy, I wanted to find the scientific reason behind the failure of bhavishyavanis, as it was known as “science of astrology†and was supposed to be based on astronomy.

I was peeved to see that rashis are non-existent in any astronomical work! It was also made very clear in astronomy books that there were no twelve equal divisions of the zodiac! On top of this, the definition of the zodiac itself, as per Oxford English Dictionary, is, “An imaginary belt in the heavens about 18° wide, through which the ecliptic passes centrally, and which forms the background of the motions of the sun, moon, and planets; it is divided into twelve equal parts of 30° called signs of the zodiac, named from the constellations that once corresponded to them but do so no longerâ€. And the definition of ecliptic, as per the same dictionary, is, “The apparent path of sun’s motion among the fixed starsâ€. The literal meaning of the word Zodiac is actually a derivative of the Greek word “Zodiakos†i.e. “circle of animalsâ€.

Here is the conundrum: It is common knowledge that the sun does not move (revolve) round the earth but it is the other way round!

Thus you can say that Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis are twelve imaginary “animal†divisions of a still more imaginary belt which is supposed to be the “apparent path†of a body that never moves---at least not in the sense that it is supposed to be moving!

Mesha etc. rashis have no utility besides predictive gimmicks and there is nothing more ridiculous than “jyotisha scienceâ€!

On pondering on all these definitions, I was constrained to try to understand the purpose of these Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, especially since no astronomy book every used them.

And all I could understand was that except for being used by astrologers, some of whom call themselves “Vedic astrologersâ€, others “tantric astrologers†and still others as “occultists†and so on, Mesha, Vrisha etc rashis have absolutely no use and purpose!

Come to think of it: It is said that Mesha (the imaginary twelfth part, supposed to be resembling a Ram, of an imaginary belt!) is owned by Mangal i.e. Mars! In spite of having read a lot of science fiction stories like “War of the Worlds†about Mars and Martian people, the sad fact remains that it is after all an inanimate roaming body---known as a planet just as the earth is! Astronomically the planet Mars has absolutely nothing resembling the Mangal of jyotishis! It is as hapless and helpless a planet as any other in facing the assaults of satellites and what not! And to say that it “owns†an imaginary part of an imaginary belt is actually the real (and not apparent!) proof of jyotishis having gone off their senses! And since most of us are jyotihsis, it means most of us are still more gullible than scientific in

spite of living in the 21st century!

Let us take the case of the Moon, which is said to be in Vrishaba in my case! It is supposed to be exalted in that sign! Now, as you must be aware, Moon has been assaulted (invaded!) the most by people like you and me! We are even thinking of colonizing it! That means, maybe after a few years, I may actually own a part of that planet (?!), if I have that much of wealth and am still around till then!

Now this Moon is supposed to be the owner of the fourth imaginary part (of the same imaginary belt!) known as sign Karkata---a Crab-----yet another animal! And the Moon being what it is---a dead and wandering body---a pigmy as compared to giants like Jupiter etc.---is supposed to own as much as one-twelfth portion of the entire “eclipticâ€---nay even the zodiac—the imaginary belt of animals! It is also supposed to be exalted as well as mulatrikona- --whatever that may mean----in the second imaginary division i.e. Vrishaba (The Bull---yet another animal) of the same imaginary belt! It is also supposed to be neecha---debilitate d in the imaginary division of Vrischika (Scorpion--- another animal) of the same imaginary belt owned by none other than Mars! There are thus several inanimate planets like Brihaspati, Shani etc. which own two

imaginary “equal divisions†of “unequal animals†like Ram and Scorpion of the imaginary belt known as zodiac! And these inanimate wandering bodies are also supposed to have enmity or friendship with one another! Moon is the friend of Mercury, but Mercury is its enemy! Mars is the friend of the sun but an enemy of Saturn and so on!

None of the planets has astronomically anything resembling the qualities of planets adumbrated in jyotisha shastras!

Lunar nodes are mathematical points astronomically, without any existence whatsoever, but astrologically they are the most dreaded ones, and Kethu, the Southern Node of the Moon, is said to be mokshakarka- ---dispenser of Mukti---Acme of our lives according to all the Vedas etc.

And even these mathematical points are said to own Kanya (Virign!) and Mina (fishes) rashis!

Then on top of it, we have to divide that imaginary “Rams†and “Bull†etc. further into imaginary sub-divisions like nakshatras, dreshkanas, saptamshas, trimshamshas and even shashtyamshas i.e. one-sixtieth part of the twelfth part of the imaginary animal! And each shashtyamsha will be having an ownership by one or the other planet like Shani, Brihaspati etc. etc.

Then the results of my karma will be dispensed by these inanimate owners of imaginary divisions through one of the Dasha-bhuktis like Vimshotari, Ashtotari, Yogini, Kala-chakra, Manduka, Pluta, Tribhona etc. etc. etc.---thirty six of them! These are besides the one adumbrated by Varaha Mihira in his Brihat Jatakam.

Can there be anything more ridiculous and laughable than such a “science†that you call jyotisha and that is based on Rams and Bulls etc. etc.?

Vedic seers were no fools to be taken in by predictive gimmicks!

Being a fan of Dr. B. V. Raman, this discovery of non-existence or Rashis scientifically made me mad because everybody was talking of “Vedic astrologyâ€, which means there must have been rashis and planets in the Vedas! I decided to take the bull by the horns and call astronomers liars and prove to them that the Vedic seers had talked about nothing but Rashis and planets in all the four Vedas! I went assiduously through all the four Vedas! However, I had to draw a blank since I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis there. The same fact was confirmed by S. B. Dikshit in his magnum opus “History of Indian astronomyâ€.

Let us see how:

The first indigenous astronomical work that we have available as on date is Lagadha’s Rik-Jyotisham. There is also a slightly later and larger version of the same work known as Yajur Jyotisham. They are supposed to be of an era of around 1400 BCE.

Both these works neither talk of Mesha etc. Rashis nor of Mangal, Shani etc. planets. Why?

Simply because no astronomical work actually requires any Mesha etc. rashis for determining the phenomena like Solstices, Equinoxes or Madhu, Madhava etc. months, Krittika etc. nakshatras and so on, i.e. the main ingredients required for deciding the suitable timings for yajnyas etc., for which purpose these works i.e. Rik and Yajur Jyotisham, were “createdâ€.

All the scholars declare in unison that there are no rashis in the Vedas and the VJ etc.

Except for a “Parokshya Professorâ€, nobody has as yet “seen†any Rashis in any of the Vedas or these astronomical works, but the claim of that “Professor†also is doubtful that he has “seen†Mina Rashi in the fifth mantra of the Yajur Jyotisha! Even the translator cum commentator, Dr. Suresh Chandra Mishra, Jyotish-acharya, of the Hindi edition of 2005 of the Vedanga Jyotisha, published by a publisher of Darya Ganj, New Delhi, has clarified it in no uncertain terms on page 50 that that mantra is spurious, an interpolation, an addition by some “useless and good for nothing fellow, which mars the complete sense of the entire workâ€! Dr. Mishra has categorically clarified that there were no rashis in India till the time of the VJ.

That impugned mantra is not available in any edition of the Vedanga Jyotisha that has not called it as spurious or an interpolation, whereas Dikshit has not discussed that mantra at all in his “Bharatiya Jyotishaâ€.

Indigenous jyotisha works are nakshatra (and not rashi) based.

Then we have indigenous works on predictive astrology of pre-Surya Sidhanta era, known as Atharva-Veda- Parishishita and another disputed work known as Atharva Jyotisha or Atma Jyotisha. Both these works talk a lot of Mangal, Shani etc. planets but only vis-à-vis Krittika etc. nakshatras and not Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! They are of about 5th century BCE.

No weekdays (varas) in any of the Veda or the VJ etc.

It may be news to you that we do not find any mention of any weekdays like Chandravara or Mangalvara etc. in any of the Vedas or the VJ or the Atharva-Veda Parishishta nor, much to the chagrin of jyotishis, in any of the Puranas, least of all the itihasas, either! The weekdays also are direct imports from some other country---probably Greece—in around fifth century BCE!

No Observatory uses Mesha etc. rashis

I do not know whether you know that no Observatory the world over, whether Greenwich or NASA, even our Positional Astronomy Centre at Kolkatta, talks even obliquely of any equal divisions of Aries, Taurus etc. astrological signs (Rashis) in any of its works! The planetary longitudes given by these observatories in their ephemerides are in degrees from 0.00001 to 359.99999 degrees, and latitude North or South, or in Right Ascensions (Hours, mts. Seconds) and Declinations! In other words, no astronomical body has any use for Mesha etc. rashis!

Rashis are found for the first time in the Surya Sidhanta

It is for the first time that we come across Mesha etc. rashis in the Surya Sidhanta of Panchasidhantika! And that Surya Sidhanta is by none other than Maya the mlechha! A Greek jyotishi! And that makes the cat out of the bag!

Vedic Seers were not imported Vamadevas and therefore, did not need rashis at all!

So the simple answer to your question as to “Did Vedic Hindus wait for 1000 years for the arrival of Alexandrian Greeks in 323 B.C to name the 12 "spokes" of the Sun's journey?†is that the Vedic Hindus were real scientists and they did not believe in imaginary twelve equal animal divisions of an imaginary belt which have absolutely no scientific value or use for any purpose and which are supposed to be owned by inanimate bodies like Mangal, Shani etc. Since the Vedic Seers, unlike videshi “Vamadevasâ€, never believed in predictive gimmicks, they did not need the curse known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! As such, there was no need for the Vedic seers to touch Rashis even with a barge pole! They had already named the twelve months of the year, which you call “spokes of the sun’s journeyâ€, as Tapah,

Tapasya etc.

That is why Acharya Lagadha also has not touched predictive gimmicks at all! It is only around fifth/sixth century BCE, that we hear about planetary predictive gimmicks but that also is only vis-à-vis nakshatras and not Mesha etc. Rashis! And that is why all such “jugglers†were known as “nakshatra-soochis†and/or “nakshatra-jeevis†and not “Rashi suchakas†then.

Similarly, except for the “Parokshya Professor†nobody has “seen†Mesha etc. Rashis in the Mahabharata either, simply because whatever phalita jyotisha had crept into Indian ethos under the influence of foreign elements till then was only vis-à-vis nakshatras and there were no Mesha etc. Rashis!

The real well wishers of the Hindus like the Manu, the Bhishma Pitamaha, Atri Rishi etc. etc. have warned in no uncertain terms that the jyotishis who were known as nakshatra soochis were to be debarred from any holy function and were to be treated as chandalas even if they were Brahmins! Chanakya has gone to the extent of warning a king that by making enquiries about naksshatras the king would deviate from his aim and thus be defeated by his enemies!

Am I “Twins†or “Crab†or a “Bullâ€? NO, “I am Thatâ€

My grandpa told me that since my moon was in Vrishabha, I was a Bull! He also told me that my sun was in Gemini, which means I was Twins. But according to zero ayanamshawallas, I am neither a Bull nor Twins but a Crab!

My God, it appears that I am just an amalgam of all the animals of the animal kingdom, as per these jyotishis! But then so must be the case with you and everybody else! My eternal gratitude to the Vedic seers who did not call people like you and me a Crab or a Scorpion etc., but declared it openly, “Tat-tvam-asi- Shvetaketu†--- “You are That Infinite Himself, O Shvetaketu†(or O AKK, for that matter!). Is it as to why I should be angry with them and pity them? Or is it the reason for your being miffed that the Vedic Hindus did not call you a “scorpion†or a “pitcher�

“Twelve spokes†in the Vedas were not twelve Rashis

Thus the â€Twelve spokes†of the Vedas were not twelve rashis. They were twelve months. It will be clear from the following instances: There are several references to figure “twelve†vis-à-vis Samvtsaras in the Vedas. “Tasmad-adityah shan-maso dakshinenaiti shad-uttarena†(Taitiriya Samhita 6/5/2) “That is why the sun moves for six months through Uttarayana and for six (months) through Dakshinayanaâ€. It is very clear that the figure “twelve†is talking of months and not rashis!

“Dvadasha masah panchartavo hemanta shishiryoh samasena†(Aitreya Brahman 1/1) i.e. “Twelve months comprise five seasons of which Hemanta and Shishira together form oneâ€. Here also the “masah†(and not rashi) has been clearly mentioned.

Similarly, in the Rig-Veda itself, there is the most famous mantra (1/25/8), “veda maso drita vratah…†(Pl. see 1999b.pdf in files section) that talks of twelve solar months specifically and also a thirteenth lunar adhika masa! There are also several other mantras giving different names of the months, the most famous ones being, “madhushchai madhavaschai vasantikav ritu…†(Taitiriya Samhita 4.4.11)

Had you perused 48th mantra of the same Sukta of the Rig-veda that you have quoted, you would not have got so impatient about attributing the creation of Mesha etc. Rashis to the Vedic seers. Here is that mantra (1/164/48) “Dwadsha pradhayashchakram ekam, treeninabhyani ka u tach-chiketai, tasmin sakam trishata na shankavo arpitah shashtir na chalachalasahâ€.

And this is how Dikshit has interpreted this mantra and also the one quoted by you, in his “History of Indian Astronomy†page 18 of Part – I, “The wheel of time having twelve spokes revolves round the heavens, but it does not wear out. Oh Agni, 720 pairs of sons ride this wheel. “Twelve spoke-boards, one wheel three navels. Who understands these? In it there are 360 shankus (rods) put in like pegs, which do not get loosenedâ€. According to Dikshit, “It is clear that this curious description refers to year, the 12 months are 12 spokes of the wheel and the 360 days are the 360 nails. The day and night is a couple of 360 such couples give the number 720â€.

Thus, in a nutshell, Vedic seers, mercifully, and much to the chagrin of “Vedic astrologers†did not need the curses known as Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis since the rashis have no other purpose except to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry as to when his “Sade sati†or his “Kalasarpa-Dosha†etc. etc. are going to begin or end!

Rashis in the Puranas are a ditto copy of rashis in the sidhantas

If you peruse the document “1999b.pdf†in files section, you will be surprised to see the similarity of nomenclature as well as definition of Mesha etc. Rashis in the sidhantas and Puranas! All the puranas talk in one voice that Makar Sankranti is the shortest day of the year i.e. Uttarayana, Dakshiniyana, another name of the Karkata Sankranti and so on. All the sidhantas also talk of the nakshatra chakra starting from “zero†degrees just as they talk of Mesha etc. rashis starting from zero degrees! Thus all the sidhantas and even Puranas have clubbed nakshatras with the so called sayana rashis, and that is what the Vayu Purana is also reflecting in 5.2 Thus the rashis in Puranas are an after thought after the introduction of Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha in India.

The confusion named Mesha etc. Rashis

We must also not forget that in spite of having been using Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis ever since the advent of Maya the mlechha, i.e. for about 2000 years, “Vedic Astrologers†are still fighting among themselves like Kilkenny cats as to which ayanamsha they must use for making “more accurate predictionsâ€.

The “Paroskhya Professorâ€, like all the other “Vedic astrologers†says that the Vedic zodiac is sidereal i.e. it starts from some star, but nobody, not even the jyotishis themselves, or the “Parokshya Professor†himself, know as to from which star Mesha Rashi or Ashvini nakshatra starts or should start!

Thus, do you mean to say that the Vedic seers also should have been groping in darkness for the starting point of the “imaginary belt†comprising “animals and nothing but animals�

“Vedic astrology†has rent us asunder from our fasts and festivals etc.

And the net result of all this has been that, thanks to Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis, we have forgotten the Udagayana and Vishuvas etc., the real Vedic phenomena, and are celebrating like mad non-existent Lahiri and Ramana and Muladhara Makar Sankrantis and so on! In other words, in spite of crying from housetops that Puranas are talking of Mesha etc. Rashis and sankrantis, we are not celebrating even Pauranic sankrantis! Why?

Either the “Vedic astrologers†are blind like bats about the knowledge of the puranas or they are deliberately celebrating a Lahiri Makar or Karka etc. sankranti, since if they celebrate Makar Sankranti as the day of Uttarayana, as per all the Puranas, they will lose their sinful crumbs as nobody will believe their astrological gimmicks then!

And that is why I go on repeating, “We do not need enemies to ruin our dharma, so long as we have friendly ‘Vedic astrologers’ aroundâ€. It is really a sad thing that a scholar like you should plead for non-existent rashis in the Vedas, instead of fighting a dharma-yudha against these “Vedic astrologersâ€.

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

PS

The tail piece, yet the most important fact, of the above discussion is that no jyotishi and/or samhita-wala etc. etc. had ever even hinted that a time would come when I would expose the “feet of clay†of “Vedic astrologersâ€. Tut, tut, tut!

 

[Response to Shivraj Khokra's post (25 June 2009) at

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5214]

*** ****

**** ***

Abhinavagupta, Shivraj Khokra wrote:

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:< If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions "sun having twelve spokes inhis wheel".You have given neither the original mantra in full nor a complete translationof the mantra. Why?

Here is the mantra 1.164.11 in Sanskrit:

दà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¦à¤¶à¤¾à¤°à¤‚ नहि तजà¥à¤œà¤°à¤¾à¤¯

वरà¥à¤µà¤°à¥à¤¤à¤¿ चकà¥à¤°à¤‚ परिदà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤®à¥ƒà¤¤à¤¸à¥à¤¯ ।आ पà¥à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤¾ अगà¥à¤¨à¥‡ मिथà¥à¤¨à¤¾à¤¸à¥‹ अतà¥à¤°à¤¸à¤ªà¥à¤¤ शतानि विंशतिशà¥à¤š तसà¥à¤¥à¥à¤ƒà¥¥à¥§à¥§à¥¥Here is the link to Sanskrit version of 1.164.11:

http://wikisource. org/wiki/ %E0%A4%8B% E0%A4%97% E0%A5%8D% E0%A4%B5% E0%A5%87% E0%A4%A\6:_%E0%A4%B8% E0%A5%82% E0%A4%95% E0%A5%8D% E0%A4%A4% E0%A4%82_ %E0%A5%A7. %E0%A5%A7% E0\%A5%AC%E0%A5% AASame mantra in English in case Sanskrit does not render on your screen (Tryturning on Unicode UTF-8 Character Encoding for your browser. For Fire-FoxMozilla based browsers it us under the "View" option)

11 dvaádashaaraM nahí táj járaaya várvarti cakrám pári dyaám Rtásyaaá putraá agne mithunaáso átra saptá shataáni viMshatísh ca tasthuHTranslation:1.164.11 The twelve-spoked wheel, of the sun revolves round the heavens, andnever (tends) to decay; seven hundred and twenty children in pairs, Agni, abidein it.After reading this mantra and understanding it, you have to answerthis question:

a) Did Vedic Hindus wait for 1000 years for the arrival of Alexandrian Greeks in323 B.C to name the 12 "spokes" of the Sun's journey?[Response to Avtar's post (23 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5207]5214 June 25