[VRI] FW:No Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

Meghnad Saha has never uttered a word that  the Rashis are imported. He was

a dedicated scientist. He was a titular head of the committee by virtue of his

being an astrophysicist.  His voice was required in astronomical matters only

if at all. He had not interfered in the decisions of  the Jyotishis. Only an

unscrupulous person will drag Dr. Meghnad Saha's name to any question on the

place of origin of Rashis. When the Vamana purana, Narada purana and the

Bhagavata purana are older than  Varahamihira then why anyone should bring in

Varahamihira's name and not take into accoyunt the evidence of the Puranas.

 

Please do'nt trust these enemies of the Hindu Jyotish shastra, who are trying to

prove that the Rashis are imported from the Greeks.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

" jyotirved " <jyotirved

Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 5:51 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:16 PM

'abhinavagupta'

Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

Namaskar!

You have said, in #5224,

“a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of the

ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?â€

 

I am giving an excerpt from my paper “Rashi5.pdf†which is in the files

section of most of the forums.

This will clarif, beyond all the doubts, that the “zodiac was actually

imported into Indiaâ€, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,

who headed the 1954 “(Saha) Calendar Reform Committeeâ€

With regards,

A K Kaul

*****                                     Â\

 Â Â Â 

******                                     \

               

******                            

******                             ******    

The zodiac and the signs: Links between the names of constellations and

astrological signs:

Here also an interesting question arises as to why did astrologers “bestowâ€

such names of equal divisions to unequal constellations!

            In this regard we quote the actual words verbatim from

pages 192-194 of the Report of the Calendar Reform Committee, under the heading

The zodiac and the signs

“The early astronomers must have found that the sun’s path in the heavens

was almost fixed, while that of the moon, and of the planets, which acquired for

astrological reasons great importance from about 1200 BC, strayed some degrees

to the north and south of the ecliptic.

            ‘In case of the moon the deviation from the ecliptic

was found to be not much greater than 5 degrees, but some of the planets strayed

much more; in the case of Venus, her perpendicular distance from the ecliptic

rises as high as 8 degrees.  So a belt was imagined straying about 9° north

and 9° south of the ecliptic, in which the planets would always remain in

course of their movement.  This belt came to be known as the ‘Zodiac’.

            ‘The complete cycle of this belt was divided into 12

equal sectors each of 30° and each sector called a ‘Sign’.  The signs

started with one of the points of intersection of the ecliptic and the equator,

and the first sign was called ‘Aries’ after the constellation of stars

within it.  The names of the succeeding signs are given in Table No.8 on the

next page, in which:

 The first column gives the beginning and ending of the signs, the vernal

equinoctial point being taken as the origin.

            The second column gives the international names which are

in Latin with the symbols used to denote the signs.

            The third column gives their English equivalents.

            The fourth column gives the Greek names.  They are

synonymous with the international names.

            The fifth column gives a set of alternative names for the

signs given by Varahamihira.

            The sixth column gives the Indian names.

            The seventh column gives the Babylonian names.

                                   

                   Table 8 --- Zodiacal Signs

 

 

 

 

                                       

Different names of zodiacal signs

 

 

1

 

2

 

3

 

4

 

5

 

6

 

7

 

 

Signs from to

 

Latin name

 

English equival.

 

Greek name

 

Varaha-Mihira

 

Indian name

 

Babylonian names & meaning

 

 

  0 -  30

 

Aries

 

Ram

 

Krios

 

Kriya

 

Mesha

 

Ku / Iku (Ram)

 

 

 30 -  60

 

Taurus

 

Bull

 

Tauros

 

Taburi

 

Vrishabha

 

Te-te (Bull)

 

 

 60 - 90

 

Gemini

 

Twins

 

Didumoi

 

Jituma

 

Mithuna

 

Masmasu(Twins)

 

 

 90 -120

 

Cancer

 

Crab

 

Karsinos

 

Kulira

 

Karkata

 

Nangaru (Crab)

 

 

120-150

 

Leo

 

Lion

 

Leon

 

Leya

 

Simha

 

Aru (Lion)

 

 

150-180

 

Virgo

 

Virgin

 

Parthenos

 

Pathona

 

Kanya

 

Ki (Virgin)

 

 

180-210

 

Libra

 

Balance

 

Zugos

 

Juka

 

Tula

 

Nuru (Scales)

 

 

210-240

 

Scorpio

 

Scorpion

 

Scorpios

 

Karupa

 

Vrischika

 

Akrabu(Scorpion

 

 

240-270

 

Sagittarius

 

Archer

 

Tozeutes

 

Tauksika

 

Dhanuh

 

Pa (Archer)

 

 

270-300

 

Capricorn

 

Goat

 

Ligoxeros

 

Akokara

 

Makara

 

Sahu (Goat)

 

 

300-330

 

Aquarius

 

Water Bearer

 

Gdroxoos

 

Hrdroga

 

Kumbha

 

Gu (Water  carrier)

 

 

330-360

 

Pisces

 

Fish

 

Ichthues

 

Antyabhya

 

Mina

 

Zib (Fish)

            It can be easily inferred from the (above) Table that the

names are of Babylonian origin, but their exact significance is not always

known.  ….

            It is seen that Varahamihira’s alternative names given

in column (5) are simply the Greek names corrupted in course of transmission and

as adopted for Sanskrit; with the exception of the name for Scorpion, which is

given as ‘Kaurpa’.  This has phonetic analogy with the corresponding

Babylonian sign names Akrabu for Scorpion. The purely Sanskrit names given in

column (6) are all translations of Greek names with the exceptions of:

            (3) Twin which become Mithuna or ‘Amorous Couple’.

(9) the Archer, which becomes the ‘Bow’,

(10) the Goat, which becomes the ‘Crocodile’

(11) Water bearer, which becomes the ‘Waterpot’.

Some of them appear to have been translations of Babylonian names.

The Babylonian names, as interpreted by F. K. Ginzel (in his book—published in

1906--Handbuch der Mathematischen und Technischen Chronologie, Bd. I. Leipzig) 

are given in the seventh column, with their meanings.

It is thus seen that the names of the zodiacal signs are originally of

Babylonian origin.  They were taken over almost without change by the Greeks,

and subsequently by the Romans, and the Hindus, from Graeco-Chaldean

astrology…..

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries before the

Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by astrologers. 

In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced by the early Greek

astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532 BC in the island of

Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation ‘Zodiac’ to

describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic.  The twelve ‘Zodiacal Signs’

are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the Brahmanas.  They

appear to have come to India in the wake of the Macedonian Greeks or of nations

like the Sakas who were intermediaries for transmission of Greek culture to

India…..

“The hesitation of medieval astronomers in accepting precession can be easily

understood.  Most of them earned their livelihood by practising the

‘Astrological Cult’ which was reared on the basis that the signs of the

zodiac are fixed, and coincident with certain star-groups; but this assumption

crumbles to the ground if precession is accepted.  But as historical records

now show, though astronomers had clearly recognised that the initial point

should be the point of intersection of the equator and the ecliptic, there was

no unanimity even amongst ancient astronomers of different ages regarding the

locationof this point in the heavens because it was not occupied by any

prominent star at any epoch and the ancients were unaware of the importance of

its motionâ€Â 

 

Rashichakra was imported into India from Babylon via the Greeks:

We have seen that the so called Mesha etc. Rashichakra cannot be linked to any

so called sidereal i.e. constellational zodiac.  So the only alternative left

for the Vedic Rishis was to have “invented†or discovered†a Rashichakra

linked to the seasonal months!  Let us try to understand as to how sheepish our

Vedic Rishis would have looked today if they had really done so!  We know that

the first month of the Vasanta Season is known as Madhu and the month of Vernal

Equinox as Madhav as per the Vedas.  Let us suppose that these months were also

named Mina and Mesha by our Vedic Rishis!  But then Mina means a “Fish†and

Mesha a “Ram†in Sanskrit and the question arises as to why they would have

named the months like that?  Even our “extraordinarily intelligent Vedic

astronomers†cannot discern any resemblance between the Spring season and

“Fishes†or “Ramsâ€!!  Similarly, according to our “Vedic

astronomers†like Subhas

Kak they had named Shukra as Vrisha (a Bull!) and Shuchi as Mithuna i.e. 

â€an amorous coupleâ€!  We know that these two months are of “Grishmaâ€Â 

i.e Summer  --- hardly having any resemblance to either a “Bull†or “an

amorous coupleâ€. By the same logic why should they have named Summer Solstice

--- Nabhah --  as Karkata since it does not at all look like a “Crab†nor

does the month of Nabhasya (rains) resemble at all a Simha  -  a “Lion!â€.

Similarly, the month of Isha of Sharad Ritu has no resemblance to a Kanya –

†a Virginâ€. The second month of Sharad Ritu viz. Urja---the Autumn

Equinox--- is the only month – rather the only day when it can be said to

resemble a Tula  -“Scales†since the day and night are equal then

throughout the globe!  The month of Sahas of Hemant Ritu has nothing to do with

“Vrishchika†– “A Scorpionâ€Â  unless it is to get a sting in our hands

by trying to erect a Rashichakra! 

The month of Sahasya is supposed to have been named Dhanu – a bow or an

Archer!  The most ironic part of it is that the months of Tapa and Tapasya –

the latter also being the Winter Solstice – are supposed to resemble

“Makar†and Kumbhaâ€Â  “a goatâ€â€“ when actually Makar means a

Crocodile and Kumbha a Pitcher!  Unfortunately for these “Vedic

astronomers†our Vedic Rishis did not invent any such Racshichakra with such

fantastic names, and that is what is bothering them and that is why they are

hell-bent to “prove†that they did do so  -- which actually proves the

ignorance of these “Vedic astronomers†and  of course, Kaliyugi

Jyotishis†who call themselves Vedic Jyotishis.

            We have thus proved  conclusively that the Vedic Rishis

did not either “invent†or “discover†a Rashichakra named Mesha etc.

Rashis because they were not that “illiterate†to have done so and make a

fool of themselves.  It is only our “modern Vedic astronomers†besides

“Vedic astrologersâ€Â  who are ascribing a Rashichakra to our Vedic

Rishis!    It eludes one’s imagination as to why they are hell-bent to make

a laughing stock of our “Vedic Rishis†by way of ascribing to the Rishis an

invention†which they never did just to belittle the claim that the

Rashichakra with the nomenclature of Mesha (Ram) etc. rashis was invented by

Babylonians!  If we are the real followers of our Vedic Rishis, even if they

had “invented†such a Rashichakra, we should have tried to undermine that

“invention†since it brings hardly any credit to anyone to ascribe a

discovery to our exalted Rishis which would have

made a mess of everything!

[Response to Francesco's post (26 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5224]

 

Abhinavagupta, Shivraj Khokra wrote:

 

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Francesco and Ramveer,

>>> Shivraj wrote:

>>> If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions " sun having twelve

>>> spokes in his wheel "

 

> Francesco Brighenti wrote:

> Even your sarcastic rhetoric question, which from your perspective

> should " strengthen " the case you want to prove, cannot suppress the

> plain fact that Sayana's interpretation of this r.ca as one

> referring to the twelve signs of the Zodiac is followed by almost no

> modern Vedic scholar.

>

 

> Ramveer Singh wrote:

>

> <message snipped>

> Now you have to answer:-

 

 

Rules of the debate require that I see some evidence from the opposite side

before I give further evidence. These are the questions that I need answers to:

 

a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of the

ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

 

b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to

Vedic times?

 

Evidence of proven provenance is required for both of the

above points.

 

-Shivraj

 

[Response to Francesco's post (26 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5215]

 

[Response to Ramvir's post (26 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5216]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

MR AK Kaul is writing blatantly fale statements about ancient Indian astronomy

:

 

<<< " The signs started with one of the points of intersection of the

ecliptic and the equator, and the first sign was called ‘Aries’ after

the constellation of stars within it. " >>>

 

In India, the Signs started with starting point of nirayana Mesha and NOT

" with one of the points of intersection of the

ecliptic and the equator " . The latter is found in European astrology, which Mr

Kaul wants to impose on India.

 

Tropical Rashis were never used in India. It is Mr Kaul's misrepresentation of

ancient texts.

 

-VJ

========================= ==

 

 

________________________________

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

vedic_research_institute

Cc: vedic astrology ; ;

WAVES-Vedic ; USBrahmins ;

Abhinavagupta

Thursday, July 2, 2009 4:17:20 PM

[vedic astrology] Re: [VRI] FW:No Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were

imported into India!

 

 

 

 

 

Dear friends,

 

Meghnad Saha has never uttered a word that the Rashis are imported. He was a

dedicated scientist. He was a titular head of the committee by virtue of his

being an astrophysicist. His voice was required in astronomical matters only if

at all. He had not interfered in the decisions of the Jyotishis. Only an

unscrupulous person will drag Dr. Meghnad Saha's name to any question on the

place of origin of Rashis. When the Vamana purana, Narada purana and the

Bhagavata purana are older than Varahamihira then why anyone should bring in

Varahamihira' s name and not take into accoyunt the evidence of the Puranas.

 

Please do'nt trust these enemies of the Hindu Jyotish shastra, who are trying to

prove that the Rashis are imported from the Greeks.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

" jyotirved " <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 5:51 AM

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com]

Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:16 PM

'abhinavagupta'

Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

Namaskar!

You have said, in #5224,

“a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of the

ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?â€

 

I am giving an excerpt from my paper “Rashi5.pdf†which is in the files

section of most of the forums.

This will clarif, beyond all the doubts, that the “zodiac was actually

imported into Indiaâ€, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,

who headed the 1954 “(Saha) Calendar Reform Committeeâ€

With regards,

A K Kaul

***** ******

****** ****** ******

The zodiac and the signs: Links between the names of constellations and

astrological signs:

Here also an interesting question arises as to why did astrologers “bestowâ€

such names of equal divisions to unequal constellations!

In this regard we quote the actual words verbatim from pages 192-194

of the Report of the Calendar Reform Committee, under the heading The zodiac and

the signs

“The early astronomers must have found that the sun’s path in the heavens

was almost fixed, while that of the moon, and of the planets, which acquired for

astrological reasons great importance from about 1200 BC, strayed some degrees

to the north and south of the ecliptic.

‘In case of the moon the deviation from the ecliptic was found to

be not much greater than 5 degrees, but some of the planets strayed much more;

in the case of Venus, her perpendicular distance from the ecliptic rises as high

as 8 degrees. So a belt was imagined straying about 9° north and 9° south of

the ecliptic, in which the planets would always remain in course of their

movement. This belt came to be known as the ‘Zodiac’.

‘The complete cycle of this belt was divided into 12 equal sectors

each of 30° and each sector called a ‘Sign’. The signs started with one of

the points of intersection of the ecliptic and the equator, and the first sign

was called ‘Aries’ after the constellation of stars within it. The names of

the succeeding signs are given in Table No.8 on the next page, in which:

The first column gives the beginning and ending of the signs, the vernal

equinoctial point being taken as the origin.

The second column gives the international names which are in Latin

with the symbols used to denote the signs.

The third column gives their English equivalents.

The fourth column gives the Greek names. They are synonymous with

the international names.

The fifth column gives a set of alternative names for the signs

given by Varahamihira.

The sixth column gives the Indian names.

The seventh column gives the Babylonian names.

Table 8 --- Zodiacal

Signs

 

Different names of zodiacal signs

 

1

 

2

 

3

 

4

 

5

 

6

 

7

 

Signs from to

 

Latin name

 

English equival.

 

Greek name

 

Varaha-Mihira

 

Indian name

 

Babylonian names & meaning

 

0 - 30

 

Aries

 

Ram

 

Krios

 

Kriya

 

Mesha

 

Ku / Iku (Ram)

 

30 - 60

 

Taurus

 

Bull

 

Tauros

 

Taburi

 

Vrishabha

 

Te-te (Bull)

 

60 - 90

 

Gemini

 

Twins

 

Didumoi

 

Jituma

 

Mithuna

 

Masmasu(Twins)

 

90 -120

 

Cancer

 

Crab

 

Karsinos

 

Kulira

 

Karkata

 

Nangaru (Crab)

 

120-150

 

Leo

 

Lion

 

Leon

 

Leya

 

Simha

 

Aru (Lion)

 

150-180

 

Virgo

 

Virgin

 

Parthenos

 

Pathona

 

Kanya

 

Ki (Virgin)

 

180-210

 

Libra

 

Balance

 

Zugos

 

Juka

 

Tula

 

Nuru (Scales)

 

210-240

 

Scorpio

 

Scorpion

 

Scorpios

 

Karupa

 

Vrischika

 

Akrabu(Scorpion

 

240-270

 

Sagittarius

 

Archer

 

Tozeutes

 

Tauksika

 

Dhanuh

 

Pa (Archer)

 

270-300

 

Capricorn

 

Goat

 

Ligoxeros

 

Akokara

 

Makara

 

Sahu (Goat)

 

300-330

 

Aquarius

 

Water Bearer

 

Gdroxoos

 

Hrdroga

 

Kumbha

 

Gu (Water carrier)

 

330-360

 

Pisces

 

Fish

 

Ichthues

 

Antyabhya

 

Mina

 

Zib (Fish)

It can be easily inferred from the (above) Table that the names are

of Babylonian origin, but their exact significance is not always known. ….

It is seen that Varahamihira’s alternative names given in column

(5) are simply the Greek names corrupted in course of transmission and as

adopted for Sanskrit; with the exception of the name for Scorpion, which is

given as ‘Kaurpa’. This has phonetic analogy with the corresponding

Babylonian sign names Akrabu for Scorpion. The purely Sanskrit names given in

column (6) are all translations of Greek names with the exceptions of:

(3) Twin which become Mithuna or ‘Amorous Couple’.

(9) the Archer, which becomes the ‘Bow’,

(10) the Goat, which becomes the ‘Crocodile’

(11) Water bearer, which becomes the ‘Waterpot’.

Some of them appear to have been translations of Babylonian names.

The Babylonian names, as interpreted by F. K. Ginzel (in his book—published in

1906--Handbuch der Mathematischen und Technischen Chronologie, Bd. I. Leipzig)

are given in the seventh column, with their meanings.

It is thus seen that the names of the zodiacal signs are originally of

Babylonian origin. They were taken over almost without change by the Greeks,

and subsequently by the Romans, and the Hindus, from Graeco-Chaldean

astrology…..

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries before the

Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by astrologers.

In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced by the early Greek

astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532 BC in the island of

Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation ‘Zodiac’ to

describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. The twelve ‘Zodiacal Signs’

are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the Brahmanas. They

appear to have come to India in the wake of the Macedonian Greeks or of nations

like the Sakas who were intermediaries for transmission of Greek culture to

India…..

“The hesitation of medieval astronomers in accepting precession can be easily

understood. Most of them earned their livelihood by practising the

‘Astrological Cult’ which was reared on the basis that the signs of the

zodiac are fixed, and coincident with certain star-groups; but this assumption

crumbles to the ground if precession is accepted. But as historical records now

show, though astronomers had clearly recognised that the initial point should be

the point of intersection of the equator and the ecliptic, there was no

unanimity even amongst ancient astronomers of different ages regarding the

locationof this point in the heavens because it was not occupied by any

prominent star at any epoch and the ancients were unaware of the importance of

its motionâ€

 

Rashichakra was imported into India from Babylon via the Greeks:

We have seen that the so called Mesha etc. Rashichakra cannot be linked to any

so called sidereal i.e. constellational zodiac. So the only alternative left

for the Vedic Rishis was to have “invented†or discovered†a Rashichakra

linked to the seasonal months! Let us try to understand as to how sheepish our

Vedic Rishis would have looked today if they had really done so! We know that

the first month of the Vasanta Season is known as Madhu and the month of Vernal

Equinox as Madhav as per the Vedas. Let us suppose that these months were also

named Mina and Mesha by our Vedic Rishis! But then Mina means a “Fish†and

Mesha a “Ram†in Sanskrit and the question arises as to why they would have

named the months like that? Even our “extraordinarily intelligent Vedic

astronomers†cannot discern any resemblance between the Spring season and

“Fishes†or “Ramsâ€!! Similarly, according to our “Vedic

astronomers†like Subhas

Kak they had named Shukra as Vrisha (a Bull!) and Shuchi as Mithuna i.e. â€an

amorous coupleâ€! We know that these two months are of “Grishma†i.e

Summer --- hardly having any resemblance to either a “Bull†or “an

amorous coupleâ€. By the same logic why should they have named Summer Solstice

--- Nabhah -- as Karkata since it does not at all look like a “Crab†nor

does the month of Nabhasya (rains) resemble at all a Simha - a “Lion!â€.

Similarly, the month of Isha of Sharad Ritu has no resemblance to a Kanya –

†a Virginâ€. The second month of Sharad Ritu viz. Urja---the Autumn

Equinox--- is the only month – rather the only day when it can be said to

resemble a Tula -“Scales†since the day and night are equal then throughout

the globe! The month of Sahas of Hemant Ritu has nothing to do with

“Vrishchika†– “A Scorpion†unless it is to get a sting in our hands

by trying to erect a Rashichakra!

The month of Sahasya is supposed to have been named Dhanu – a bow or an

Archer! The most ironic part of it is that the months of Tapa and Tapasya –

the latter also being the Winter Solstice – are supposed to resemble

“Makar†and Kumbha†“a goatâ€â€“ when actually Makar means a Crocodile

and Kumbha a Pitcher! Unfortunately for these “Vedic astronomers†our Vedic

Rishis did not invent any such Racshichakra with such fantastic names, and that

is what is bothering them and that is why they are hell-bent to “prove†that

they did do so -- which actually proves the ignorance of these “Vedic

astronomers†and of course, Kaliyugi Jyotishis†who call themselves Vedic

Jyotishis.

We have thus proved conclusively that the Vedic Rishis did not

either “invent†or “discover†a Rashichakra named Mesha etc. Rashis

because they were not that “illiterate†to have done so and make a fool of

themselves. It is only our “modern Vedic astronomers†besides “Vedic

astrologers†who are ascribing a Rashichakra to our Vedic Rishis! It

eludes one’s imagination as to why they are hell-bent to make a laughing stock

of our “Vedic Rishis†by way of ascribing to the Rishis an inventionâ€

which they never did just to belittle the claim that the Rashichakra with the

nomenclature of Mesha (Ram) etc. rashis was invented by Babylonians! If we are

the real followers of our Vedic Rishis, even if they had “invented†such a

Rashichakra, we should have tried to undermine that “invention†since it

brings hardly any credit to anyone to ascribe a discovery to our exalted Rishis

which would have

made a mess of everything!

[Response to Francesco's post (26 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5224]

 

Abhinavagupta, Shivraj Khokra wrote:

 

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Francesco and Ramveer,

>>> Shivraj wrote:

>>> If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions " sun having twelve

>>> spokes in his wheel "

 

> Francesco Brighenti wrote:

> Even your sarcastic rhetoric question, which from your perspective

> should " strengthen " the case you want to prove, cannot suppress the

> plain fact that Sayana's interpretation of this r.ca as one

> referring to the twelve signs of the Zodiac is followed by almost no

> modern Vedic scholar.

>

 

> Ramveer Singh wrote:

>

> <message snipped>

> Now you have to answer:-

 

Rules of the debate require that I see some evidence from the opposite side

before I give further evidence. These are the questions that I need answers to:

 

a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of the

ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

 

b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to

Vedic times?

 

Evidence of proven provenance is required for both of the

above points.

 

-Shivraj

 

[Response to Francesco's post (26 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5215]

 

[Response to Ramvir's post (26 June 2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5216]

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

Meghnad Saha has never uttered a word that the Rashis are imported. He was a dedicated scientist. He was a titular head of the committee by virtue of his being an astrophysicist. His voice was required in astronomical matters only if at all. He had not interfered in the decisions of the Jyotishis. Only an unscrupulous person will drag Dr. Meghnad Saha's name to any question on the place of origin of Rashis. When the Vamana purana, Narada purana and the Bhagavata purana are older than Varahamihira then why anyone should bring in Varahamihira's name and not take into accoyunt the evidence of the Puranas.

 

Please do'nt trust these enemies of the Hindu Jyotish shastra, who are trying to prove that the Rashis are imported from the Greeks.

 

Sincerely,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

jyotirved <jyotirved[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!"jyotirved" <jyotirvedWednesday, July 1, 2009, 5:51 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved [jyotirved@ sify.com] Wednesday, July 01, 2009 6:16 PM'abhinavagupta'Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

Namaskar!

You have said, in #5224,

“a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?â€

 

I am giving an excerpt from my paper “Rashi5.pdf†which is in the files section of most of the forums.

This will clarif, beyond all the doubts, that the “zodiac was actually imported into Indiaâ€, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist, who headed the 1954 “(Saha) Calendar Reform Committeeâ€

With regards,

A K Kaul

***** ****** ****** ******

******

The zodiac and the signs: Links between the names of constellations and astrological signs:

Here also an interesting question arises as to why did astrologers “bestow†such names of equal divisions to unequal constellations!

In this regard we quote the actual words verbatim from pages 192-194 of the Report of the Calendar Reform Committee, under the heading The zodiac and the signs

“The early astronomers must have found that the sun’s path in the heavens was almost fixed, while that of the moon, and of the planets, which acquired for astrological reasons great importance from about 1200 BC, strayed some degrees to the north and south of the ecliptic.

‘In case of the moon the deviation from the ecliptic was found to be not much greater than 5 degrees, but some of the planets strayed much more; in the case of Venus, her perpendicular distance from the ecliptic rises as high as 8 degrees. So a belt was imagined straying about 9° north and 9° south of the ecliptic, in which the planets would always remain in course of their movement. This belt came to be known as the ‘Zodiac’.

‘The complete cycle of this belt was divided into 12 equal sectors each of 30° and each sector called a ‘Sign’. The signs started with one of the points of intersection of the ecliptic and the equator, and the first sign was called ‘Aries’ after the constellation of stars within it. The names of the succeeding signs are given in Table No.8 on the next page, in which:

The first column gives the beginning and ending of the signs, the vernal equinoctial point being taken as the origin.

The second column gives the international names which are in Latin with the symbols used to denote the signs.

The third column gives their English equivalents.

The fourth column gives the Greek names. They are synonymous with the international names.

The fifth column gives a set of alternative names for the signs given by Varahamihira.

The sixth column gives the Indian names.

The seventh column gives the Babylonian names.

Table 8 --- Zodiacal Signs

 

 

 

 

Different names of zodiacal signs

 

 

1

 

2

 

3

 

4

 

5

 

6

 

7

 

 

Signs from to

 

Latin name

 

English equival.

 

Greek name

 

Varaha-Mihira

 

Indian name

 

Babylonian names & meaning

 

 

0 - 30

 

Aries

 

Ram

 

Krios

 

Kriya

 

Mesha

 

Ku / Iku (Ram)

 

 

30 - 60

 

Taurus

 

Bull

 

Tauros

 

Taburi

 

Vrishabha

 

Te-te (Bull)

 

 

60 - 90

 

Gemini

 

Twins

 

Didumoi

 

Jituma

 

Mithuna

 

Masmasu(Twins)

 

 

90 -120

 

Cancer

 

Crab

 

Karsinos

 

Kulira

 

Karkata

 

Nangaru (Crab)

 

 

120-150

 

Leo

 

Lion

 

Leon

 

Leya

 

Simha

 

Aru (Lion)

 

 

150-180

 

Virgo

 

Virgin

 

Parthenos

 

Pathona

 

Kanya

 

Ki (Virgin)

 

 

180-210

 

Libra

 

Balance

 

Zugos

 

Juka

 

Tula

 

Nuru (Scales)

 

 

210-240

 

Scorpio

 

Scorpion

 

Scorpios

 

Karupa

 

Vrischika

 

Akrabu(Scorpion

 

 

240-270

 

Sagittarius

 

Archer

 

Tozeutes

 

Tauksika

 

Dhanuh

 

Pa (Archer)

 

 

270-300

 

Capricorn

 

Goat

 

Ligoxeros

 

Akokara

 

Makara

 

Sahu (Goat)

 

 

300-330

 

Aquarius

 

Water Bearer

 

Gdroxoos

 

Hrdroga

 

Kumbha

 

Gu (Water carrier)

 

 

330-360

 

Pisces

 

Fish

 

Ichthues

 

Antyabhya

 

Mina

 

Zib (Fish)

It can be easily inferred from the (above) Table that the names are of Babylonian origin, but their exact significance is not always known. ….

It is seen that Varahamihira’s alternative names given in column (5) are simply the Greek names corrupted in course of transmission and as adopted for Sanskrit; with the exception of the name for Scorpion, which is given as ‘Kaurpa’. This has phonetic analogy with the corresponding Babylonian sign names Akrabu for Scorpion. The purely Sanskrit names given in column (6) are all translations of Greek names with the exceptions of:

(3) Twin which become Mithuna or ‘Amorous Couple’.

(9) the Archer, which becomes the ‘Bow’,

(10) the Goat, which becomes the ‘Crocodile’

(11) Water bearer, which becomes the ‘Waterpot’.

Some of them appear to have been translations of Babylonian names.

The Babylonian names, as interpreted by F. K. Ginzel (in his book—published in 1906--Handbuch der Mathematischen und Technischen Chronologie, Bd. I. Leipzig) are given in the seventh column, with their meanings.

It is thus seen that the names of the zodiacal signs are originally of Babylonian origin. They were taken over almost without change by the Greeks, and subsequently by the Romans, and the Hindus, from Graeco-Chaldean astrology…..

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532 BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation ‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. The twelve ‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the Brahmanas. They appear to have come to India in the wake of the Macedonian Greeks or of nations like the Sakas who were intermediaries for transmission of Greek culture to India…..

“The hesitation of medieval astronomers in accepting precession can be easily understood. Most of them earned their livelihood by practising the ‘Astrological Cult’ which was reared on the basis that the signs of the zodiac are fixed, and coincident with certain star-groups; but this assumption crumbles to the ground if precession is accepted. But as historical records now show, though astronomers had clearly recognised that the initial point should be the point of intersection of the equator and the ecliptic, there was no unanimity even amongst ancient astronomers of different ages regarding the locationof this point in the heavens because it was not occupied by any prominent star at any epoch and the ancients were unaware of the importance of its motionâ€

 

Rashichakra was imported into India from Babylon via the Greeks:

We have seen that the so called Mesha etc. Rashichakra cannot be linked to any so called sidereal i.e. constellational zodiac. So the only alternative left for the Vedic Rishis was to have “invented†or discovered†a Rashichakra linked to the seasonal months! Let us try to understand as to how sheepish our Vedic Rishis would have looked today if they had really done so! We know that the first month of the Vasanta Season is known as Madhu and the month of Vernal Equinox as Madhav as per the Vedas. Let us suppose that these months were also named Mina and Mesha by our Vedic Rishis! But then Mina means a “Fish†and Mesha a “Ram†in Sanskrit and the question arises as to why they would have named the months like that? Even our “extraordinarily intelligent Vedic astronomers†cannot discern any resemblance between the Spring season and

“Fishes†or “Ramsâ€!! Similarly, according to our “Vedic astronomers†like Subhas Kak they had named Shukra as Vrisha (a Bull!) and Shuchi as Mithuna i.e. â€an amorous coupleâ€! We know that these two months are of “Grishma†i.e Summer --- hardly having any resemblance to either a “Bull†or “an amorous coupleâ€. By the same logic why should they have named Summer Solstice --- Nabhah -- as Karkata since it does not at all look like a “Crab†nor does the month of Nabhasya (rains) resemble at all a Simha - a “Lion!â€. Similarly, the month of Isha of Sharad Ritu has no resemblance to a Kanya – †a Virginâ€. The second month of Sharad Ritu viz. Urja---the Autumn Equinox--- is the only month – rather the only day when it can be said to resemble a Tula -“Scales†since the day and night are equal then throughout the globe! The month of Sahas of Hemant Ritu has

nothing to do with “Vrishchika†– “A Scorpion†unless it is to get a sting in our hands by trying to erect a Rashichakra! The month of Sahasya is supposed to have been named Dhanu – a bow or an Archer! The most ironic part of it is that the months of Tapa and Tapasya – the latter also being the Winter Solstice – are supposed to resemble “Makar†and Kumbha†“a goatâ€â€“ when actually Makar means a Crocodile and Kumbha a Pitcher! Unfortunately for these “Vedic astronomers†our Vedic Rishis did not invent any such Racshichakra with such fantastic names, and that is what is bothering them and that is why they are hell-bent to “prove†that they did do so -- which actually proves the ignorance of these “Vedic astronomers†and of course, Kaliyugi Jyotishis†who call themselves Vedic Jyotishis.

We have thus proved conclusively that the Vedic Rishis did not either “invent†or “discover†a Rashichakra named Mesha etc. Rashis because they were not that “illiterate†to have done so and make a fool of themselves. It is only our “modern Vedic astronomers†besides “Vedic astrologers†who are ascribing a Rashichakra to our Vedic Rishis! It eludes one’s imagination as to why they are hell-bent to make a laughing stock of our “Vedic Rishis†by way of ascribing to the Rishis an invention†which they never did just to belittle the claim that the Rashichakra with the nomenclature of Mesha (Ram) etc. rashis was invented by Babylonians! If we are the real followers of our Vedic Rishis, even if they had “invented†such a Rashichakra, we should have tried

to undermine that “invention†since it brings hardly any credit to anyone to ascribe a discovery to our exalted Rishis which would have made a mess of everything!

[Response to Francesco's post (26 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5224]

 

Abhinavagupta, Shivraj Khokra wrote:

 

Re: References of Rashis in the Vedaas and the Vedanga Jyotisha.

 

Francesco and Ramveer,>>> Shivraj wrote:>>> If we read RgVedic Hymn: 1.164.11, it mentions "sun having twelve>>> spokes in his wheel"> Francesco Brighenti wrote:> Even your sarcastic rhetoric question, which from your perspective> should "strengthen" the case you want to prove, cannot suppress the> plain fact that Sayana's interpretation of this r.ca as one> referring to the twelve signs of the Zodiac is followed by almost no> modern Vedic scholar.>> Ramveer Singh wrote:>> <message snipped>> Now you have to answer:-Rules of the debate require that I see some evidence from the opposite sidebefore I give further evidence. These are the questions that I need answers to:a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of theecliptic before the Vedic

Hindus?b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior toVedic times?Evidence of proven provenance is required for both of theabove points.-Shivraj[Response to Francesco's post (26 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5215][Response to Ramvir's post (26 June 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5216]