Fwd: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

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Abhinavagupta , Shivraj Khokra wrote:Avtarji,Before posting further to this forum on (the Rashi controversy and) Hindu astrology, I request you to clarify , without ambiguity, your position on the following questions?* Do you accept that the Purânas and MBh contain unambiguous references to and even description of planetary and zodiacal configurations (as cited by Sarvesh, Sunil, Shivraj, etc.? If so what is the status of such passages: evidence of zodiacal knowledge at the times of their composition or (illegitimate) 'interpolations'? If the latter, why have these texts been accepted and handed down uncritically by traditional scholars (instead of being rejected)?* Do you believe that the constellations (nakSatras) and planets were never used in Hindu society for predicting the future before the introduction of the Greco-Chaldean zodiac? If they were not, were there no other forms of fortune-telling in pre-zodiacal India?* Do you accept that the zodiacal signs have been used not just for (predictive) astrology but also to fix the timing of important public festivals like the Kumbha Mela, death rituals, etc.? If so, has this been done arbitrarily or by resorting certain meaningful principles, and do the latter show any continuity with pre-zodiacal practices?I'm well aware, even from personal experience, of the abuses of 'Vedic' astrology and the bane it has become to Hindu society (the best 'solution' proposed might be the one threatened in Lage Raho Munnabhai by the latter's sidekick 'Circuit'...). So I'm not against the lines of public inquiry you are pursuing, but there is the danger of throwing the baby out with the bath-water,,,Sunthar[Rest of this thread at Sunthar's comments (03 July) on Sunil's post (01 July 2009) atAbhinavagupta/message/5246]-------------Avtarji, Pranaam!Abhinavagupta , Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:>> Shri Shivraj Khokraji,> > Namaskar!> > You have said, in #5224,> > a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of> the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?> b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?> > > > I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files> section of most of the forums.> > This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually> imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,> who headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee> Here are few verses from Mahabharata: [Reference: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs05141.htm] [Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the brahmi fonts render correctly]Udyog Parva 5.141 पराजापतà¥à¤¯à¤‚ हि नकà¥à¤·à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤‚ गरहस तीकà¥à¤·à¥à¤£à¥Š महाथà¥à¤¯à¥à¤¤à¤¿à¤ƒ शनैशà¥à¤šà¤°à¤ƒ पीडयति पीडयन पराणिनॊ ऽधिकम [7] That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn) troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to living beings. [7] कृतà¥à¤µà¤¾ चाङà¥à¤—ारकॊ वकà¥à¤°à¤‚ जयेषà¥à¤ ायां मधà¥à¤¸à¥‚थन अनà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤§à¤¾à¤‚ परारà¥à¤¦à¤¯à¤¤à¥‡ मैतà¥à¤°à¤‚ संशमयनà¥à¤¨ इव [8] The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquely to the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towards Anuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8] सॊमसà¥à¤¯ लकà¥à¤·à¥à¤® वयावृतà¥à¤¤à¤‚ राहà¥à¤° अरà¥à¤•à¤® उपेषà¥à¤¯à¤¤à¤¿ थिवश चॊलà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤ƒ पतनà¥à¤¤à¥à¤¯ à¤à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ सनिरà¥à¤˜à¤¾à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ सकमà¥à¤ªà¤¨à¤¾à¤ƒ [10] Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the earth shake. [10] पराथà¥à¤°à¥à¤­à¥‚तेषॠचैतेषॠभयम आहà¥à¤° उपसà¥à¤¦à¤¿à¤¤à¤® निमितà¥à¤¤à¥‡à¤·à¥ महाबाहॊ थारà¥à¤£à¤‚ पराणिनाशनम [12] When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is at hand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of living beings.[12][Reference http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs05047.htm]Udyog Parva 5.47 उचà¥à¤šà¤¾à¤µà¤šà¤‚ थैवयà¥à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤‚ रहसà¥à¤¯à¤‚; थिवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤ƒ परशà¥à¤¨à¤¾ मृगचकà¥à¤°à¤¾ मà¥à¤¹à¥‚रà¥à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ कषयं महानà¥à¤¤à¤‚ कà¥à¤°à¥à¤¸à¥ƒà¤žà¥à¤œà¤¯à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚; निवेथयनà¥à¤¤à¥‡ पाणà¥à¤¡à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚ जयं च [93] Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answering questions regarding coming events, understanding the signs of the zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and the Srinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas. Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictions were common occurrence and we know the date of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch these events took place. In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any reference as to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/Chaldeans etc. knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence. You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please point out a primary source that I can check which mentions that Greeks were using astrology in 532 B.C. Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia. Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where he says what you mention in the article?[Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at Abhinavagupta/message/5240]