Fw: [Abhinavagupta] Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

[Guest guest]

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Shivraj <Shivraj wrote:

 

 

Shivraj <Shivraj

[Abhinavagupta] Re: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into

India!

Abhinavagupta

Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:09 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Avtarji,

 

Before posting further to this forum on (the Rashi controversy and) Hindu

astrology, I request you to clarify , without ambiguity, your position on the

following questions?

 

* Do you accept that the Purânas and MBh contain unambiguous references to and

even description of planetary and zodiacal configurations (as cited by Sarvesh,

Sunil, Shivraj, etc.? If so what is the status of such passages: evidence of

zodiacal knowledge at the times of their composition or (illegitimate)

'interpolations' ? If the latter, why have these texts been accepted and handed

down uncritically by traditional scholars (instead of being rejected)?

 

* Do you believe that the constellations (nakSatras) and planets were never used

in Hindu society for predicting the future before the introduction of the

Greco-Chaldean zodiac? If they were not, were there no other forms of

fortune-telling in pre-zodiacal India?

 

* Do you accept that the zodiacal signs have been used not just for (predictive)

astrology but also to fix the timing of important public festivals like the

Kumbha Mela, death rituals, etc.? If so, has this been done arbitrarily or by

resorting certain meaningful principles, and do the latter show any continuity

with pre-zodiacal practices?

 

I'm well aware, even from personal experience, of the abuses of 'Vedic'

astrology and the bane it has become to Hindu society (the best 'solution'

proposed might be the one threatened in Lage Raho Munnabhai by the latter's

sidekick 'Circuit'... ). So I'm not against the lines of public inquiry you are

pursuing, but there is the danger of throwing the baby out with the bath-water,,

,

 

Sunthar

 

[Rest of this thread at Sunthar's comments (03 July) on Sunil's post (01 July

2009) at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5246]

 

------------ -

 

Avtarji,

Pranaam!

Abhinavagupta, Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:

>

> Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

>

> Namaskar!

>

> You have said, in #5224,

>

> a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of

> the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

> b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?

>

>

>

> I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files

> section of most of the forums.

>

> This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually

> imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,

> who headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee

>

 

Here are few verses from Mahabharata:

[Reference: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05141 .htm]

[Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the

brahmi fonts render correctly]

 

Udyog Parva 5.141

पराजापतà¥à¤¯à¤‚ हि नकà¥à¤·à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤‚ गरहस

तीकà¥à¤·à¥à¤£à¥Š महाथà¥à¤¯à¥à¤¤à¤¿à¤ƒ

शनैशà¥à¤šà¤°à¤ƒ पीडयति पीडयन

पराणिनॊ ऽधिकम [7]

 

That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn)

troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to

living beings. [7]

 

कृतà¥à¤µà¤¾ चाङà¥à¤—ारकॊ वकà¥à¤°à¤‚

जयेषà¥à¤ à¤¾à¤¯à¤¾à¤‚ मधà¥à¤¸à¥‚थन

अनà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤§à¤¾à¤‚ परारà¥à¤¦à¤¯à¤¤à¥‡ मैतà¥à¤°à¤‚

संशमयनà¥à¤¨ इव [8]

 

The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquely

to the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towards

Anuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8]

 

सॊमसà¥à¤¯ लकà¥à¤·à¥à¤® वयावृतà¥à¤¤à¤‚

राहà¥à¤° अरà¥à¤•à¤® उपेषà¥à¤¯à¤¤à¤¿

थिवश चॊलà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤ƒ पतनà¥à¤¤à¥à¤¯ à¤à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

सनिरà¥à¤˜à¤¾à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ सकमà¥à¤ªà¤¨à¤¾à¤ƒ [10]

 

Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and

from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the

earth shake. [10]

 

पराथà¥à¤°à¥à¤­à¥‚तेषॠचैतेषॠभयम

आहà¥à¤° उपसà¥à¤¦à¤¿à¤¤à¤®

निमितà¥à¤¤à¥‡à¤·à¥ महाबाहॊ थारà¥à¤£à¤‚

पराणिनाशनम [12]

 

When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is at

hand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of living

beings.[12]

 

[Reference http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05047 .htm]

Udyog Parva 5.47

 

उचà¥à¤šà¤¾à¤µà¤šà¤‚ थैवयà¥à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤‚ रहसà¥à¤¯à¤‚;

थिवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤ƒ परशà¥à¤¨à¤¾ मृगचकà¥à¤°à¤¾

मà¥à¤¹à¥‚रà¥à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

कषयं महानà¥à¤¤à¤‚ कà¥à¤°à¥à¤¸à¥ƒà¤žà¥à¤œà¤¯à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚;

निवेथयनà¥à¤¤à¥‡ पाणà¥à¤¡à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚ जयं च [93]

 

Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answering

questions regarding coming events, understanding the signs of

the zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and the

Srinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas.

 

Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictions

were common occurrence and we know the

date of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch these

events took place.

 

In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any reference

as to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/ Chaldeans etc.

knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was

being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence.

 

You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please

point out a primary source that I can check which mentions that

Greeks were using astrology in 532 B.C.

 

Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia.

 

Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where

he says what you mention in the article?

 

[Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5240]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Shivraj <Shivraj wrote:

Shivraj <Shivraj[Abhinavagupta] Re: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!Abhinavagupta Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:09 PM

 

 

Avtarji,Before posting further to this forum on (the Rashi controversy and) Hindu astrology, I request you to clarify , without ambiguity, your position on the following questions?* Do you accept that the Purânas and MBh contain unambiguous references to and even description of planetary and zodiacal configurations (as cited by Sarvesh, Sunil, Shivraj, etc.? If so what is the status of such passages: evidence of zodiacal knowledge at the times of their composition or (illegitimate) 'interpolations' ? If the latter, why have these texts been accepted and handed down uncritically by traditional scholars (instead of being rejected)?* Do you believe that the constellations (nakSatras) and planets were never used in Hindu society for predicting the future before the introduction of the Greco-Chaldean zodiac? If they were not, were there no other forms of fortune-telling in pre-zodiacal India?* Do you accept that the

zodiacal signs have been used not just for (predictive) astrology but also to fix the timing of important public festivals like the Kumbha Mela, death rituals, etc.? If so, has this been done arbitrarily or by resorting certain meaningful principles, and do the latter show any continuity with pre-zodiacal practices?I'm well aware, even from personal experience, of the abuses of 'Vedic' astrology and the bane it has become to Hindu society (the best 'solution' proposed might be the one threatened in Lage Raho Munnabhai by the latter's sidekick 'Circuit'... ). So I'm not against the lines of public inquiry you are pursuing, but there is the danger of throwing the baby out with the bath-water,, ,Sunthar[Rest of this thread at Sunthar's comments (03 July) on Sunil's post (01 July 2009) athttp://groups. / group/Abhinavagu

pta/message/ 5246]------------ -Avtarji,Pranaam!Abhinavagupta, Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:>> Shri Shivraj Khokraji,> > Namaskar!> > You have said, in #5224,> > a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of> the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?> b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?> > > > I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files> section of most of the forums.> > This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually> imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,> who

headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee> Here are few verses from Mahabharata:[Reference: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05141 .htm][Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the brahmi fonts render correctly]Udyog Parva 5.141पराजापतà¥à¤¯à¤‚ हि नकà¥à¤·à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤‚ गरहस तीकà¥à¤·à¥à¤£à¥Š महाथà¥à¤¯à¥à¤¤à¤¿à¤ƒà¤¶à¤¨à¥ˆà¤¶à¥à¤šà¤°à¤ƒ पीडयति पीडयन पराणिनॊ ऽधिकम [7]That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn)troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to living beings. [7]कृतà¥à¤µà¤¾ चाङà¥à¤—ारकॊ वकà¥à¤°à¤‚ जयेषà¥à¤ à¤¾à¤¯à¤¾à¤‚ मधà¥à¤¸à¥‚थनअनà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤§à¤¾à¤‚ परारà¥à¤¦à¤¯à¤¤à¥‡

मैतà¥à¤°à¤‚ संशमयनà¥à¤¨ इव [8]The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquelyto the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towardsAnuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8]सॊमसà¥à¤¯ लकà¥à¤·à¥à¤® वयावृतà¥à¤¤à¤‚ राहà¥à¤° अरà¥à¤•à¤® उपेषà¥à¤¯à¤¤à¤¿à¤¥à¤¿à¤µà¤¶ चॊलà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤ƒ पतनà¥à¤¤à¥à¤¯ à¤à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ सनिरà¥à¤˜à¤¾à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ सकमà¥à¤ªà¤¨à¤¾à¤ƒ [10]Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the earth shake. [10]पराथà¥à¤°à¥à¤­à¥‚तेषॠचैतेषॠभयम आहà¥à¤° उपसà¥à¤¦à¤¿à¤¤à¤®à¤¨à¤¿à¤®à¤¿à¤¤à¥à¤¤à¥‡à¤·à¥ महाबाहॊ थारà¥à¤£à¤‚ पराणिनाशनम [12]When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is

athand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of livingbeings.[12][Reference http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05047 .htm]Udyog Parva 5.47उचà¥à¤šà¤¾à¤µà¤šà¤‚ थैवयà¥à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤‚ रहसà¥à¤¯à¤‚; थिवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤ƒ परशà¥à¤¨à¤¾ मृगचकà¥à¤°à¤¾ मà¥à¤¹à¥‚रà¥à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒà¤•à¤·à¤¯à¤‚ महानà¥à¤¤à¤‚ कà¥à¤°à¥à¤¸à¥ƒà¤žà¥à¤œà¤¯à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚; निवेथयनà¥à¤¤à¥‡ पाणà¥à¤¡à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚ जयं च [93]Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answeringquestions regarding coming events, understanding the signs ofthe zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and theSrinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas.Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictionswere common occurrence and we

know thedate of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch theseevents took place.In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any referenceas to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/ Chaldeans etc. knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence.You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Pleasepoint out a primary source that I can check which mentions thatGreeks were using astrology in 532 B.C. Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia.Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote wherehe says what you mention in the article?[Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/

5240]