[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

1)

Shri Kaulji has says as follows:

 

Quote

 

This date of astrology

in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of

the Calendar Reform Committee.

 

Unquote

 

 

 

This date of 532 BC was not given by Dr. Meghnad Saha alone as the Calendar

reform committee was not a one-man committee. How can Kaulji ignore the other

members of the committee or does he consider the other members to be having

lesaser integrity than Dr. Meghnad Saha? Being a Bhattachar(j)ya I would however

not feel bad if lot of respect is shown to Dr. Meghnad Saha. Further as it was

not specifically

mentioned that the decision was unanimous Dr. Meghnad Saha could have

been a dissident also.

 

2)

Then he quotes the Calendar Reform Committee as follows :

 

Quote

 

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries

before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by

astrologers.  In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced

by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532

BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation

‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. 

 

Unquote

 

The commiittee simply says that Cleostratos supposedly observed the signs in

about 532 BCE. From the words " supposedly " and " about 532 BC " any reasonable

pereson will know that 532 is not a confirmed date.  Yet as it suits him,

KauljI conveniently takes it as the confirmed date.

 

3)

Shri kaul quotes further:

 

Quote

 

The twelve

‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like

the

Brahmanas. 

 

Unquote

 

The committee says that the Zodiacal signs are not there in the ritualistic

Indian literature like the Brahmanas but it did not say that the signs are not

there in the non-ritualitic literature like Purana, which is given the exalted

status of  the Fith Veda  by the Veda itself.

 

4)

Thus the above statements definitely show that the committe (not Dr. Meghnad

Saha alone) was neither sure of the of the date of 532 BC at all  nor it says

that the signs are not there in the Puranas, ie. the Fifth Veda.

 

5)

When the date of 532 BCE itself has nort been confirmed by the Calendar Reform

Committee Sri Kaulji takes that date of 532 BC like a Veda-vakya or for the

non-Hindus like a gospel truth. With no firm basis for the date of 532 BC he

(Kaulji) is  now feigning ignorance as to whether the date of the Mahabharata

is before 532 BCE or not and he is asking Khokraji to give the confirmed date of

the Mahabharata with evidence. He says as follows :

 

Quote

 

Would

you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the

epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how

and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work.

 

Unquote

 

Now he wants Khokraji to prove that the date of Mahabharata was before 532

BCE.  He says that there is no consensus on the date of the Mahabharata. We

must admire the tenacity of Kaulji.

 

This situation is now somewhat like a story which runs like this: Shri " X " had a

bet with Shri " Y " that if the item " R " is proved to be there in the Veda and

Vedanga Jyotisha then " X " will commit suicide. Then a friend of " X " asked him

not to take that bet as he ( " X " ) will certainly lose the bet. Then " X " tells his

friend not to worry and says that he ( " X " ) can lose the bet only if he admits

that he has lost. He assured his friend that he ( " X " ) would never admit that he

had lost the bet.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved

[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

" jyotirved " <jyotirved

Monday, July 6, 2009, 1:50 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved

[jyotirved@ sify.com]

 

Monday, July 06, 2009 2:14 PM

 

'abhinavagupta'

 

RE: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

 

Namaskar!

 

You have asked information about

some points, one being, “You

gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please point out a

primary source that I can check which mentions that Greeks were using astrology

in 532 B.C.â€

 

This date of astrology

in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of

the Calendar Reform Committee.  I quote the relevant passage once again,

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries

before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by

astrologers.  In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced

by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532

BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation

‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic.  The twelve

‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like

the

Brahmanas.  They appear to have come to India in the wake of the

Macedonian Greeks or of nations like the Sakas who were intermediaries for

transmission of Greek culture to India…..â€. Dr. Saha was a

scientist of repute, whose integrity cannot be questioned  by

anybody. 

 

Another point is,

“Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where he says what

you mention in the article?â€

 

This “exact quoteâ€

has been quoted from pages 192 to 194 of the “Report of the (Saha) Calendar

Reform Committeeâ€.

 

In your summary about the references of astrological

predictions in the Mahabharata, you have said, “Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C.

by many

centuries if not millenniaâ€.

 

There has already been a lot of discussion about the

date of Mahabharata in Abhinavagupta forum and other forums and papers. 

There is no consensus about either the “starting date†or the “concluding

dateâ€

of the composition/ revelation/ compilation of the Mahabharata epic.  Would

you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the

epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how

and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work.  May be,

while trying to arrive at those dates, you will find an answer yourself, to

your own question.

 

Pl. rest assured that these are no delaying tactics, but an honest

effort to arrive at Truth and nothing but Truth.

 

In the end of your post, you have said, “So I'm not against

the lines of public inquiry you are pursuing, but there is the danger of

throwing the baby out with the bath-water,, ,â€Â  Yes, you are absolutely

right that we should not throw the “baby out with the bath-waterâ€, but we

must

at the same time let not the “baby wallow in the muddy water†either since

in

the former case, at least there are chances of her survival, whereas in the

latter

case, the baby ill suffocate to death. 

 

And that is exactly

the “Vedic Hindus†have been doing over the last couple of millennia:

wallowing

in the mud of predictive gimmicks, which they call these days “Vedic

astrologyâ€

and continue to celebrate all the festivals and muhurtas on wrong days at least

over the last several centuries, ever since Grahalaghava!

 

We must put a full

stop to it.

 

With regards,

 

A. K. Kaul

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 [Response to Shri Shivraj’s post of Jul

3 2009 at

 

 

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5247]

 

 

 

#5247 july 3, 09

 

Re: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis

were imported into India!

 

 

 

Avtarji,

 

Pranaam!

 

Abhinavagupta,

Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:

 

>

 

> Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

 

>

 

> Namaskar!

 

>

 

> You have said, in #5224,

 

>

 

> a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of

 

> the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

 

> b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files

 

> section of most of the forums.

 

>

 

> This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually

 

> imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,

 

> who headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee

 

>

 

 

 

Here are few verses from Mahabharata:

 

[Reference: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05141 .htm]

 

[Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the

 

brahmi fonts render correctly]

 

 

 

Udyog Parva 5.141

 

पराजापतà¥à¤¯à¤‚ हि

नकà¥à¤·à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤‚ गरहस

 

तीकà¥à¤·à¥à¤£à¥Š

महाथà¥à¤¯à¥à¤¤à¤¿à¤ƒ

 

शनैशà¥à¤šà¤°à¤ƒ

पीडयति पीडयन

 

पराणिनॊ ऽधिकम [7]

 

 

 

That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn)

 

troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to

 

living beings. [7]

 

 

 

 

 

कृतà¥à¤µà¤¾

चाङà¥à¤—ारकॊ

वकà¥à¤°à¤‚

 

जयेषà¥à¤ à¤¾à¤¯à¤¾à¤‚

मधà¥à¤¸à¥‚थन

 

अनà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤§à¤¾à¤‚

परारà¥à¤¦à¤¯à¤¤à¥‡

मैतà¥à¤°à¤‚

 

संशमयनà¥à¤¨ इव [8]

 

 

 

The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquely

 

to the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towards

 

Anuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

सॊमसà¥à¤¯ लकà¥à¤·à¥à¤®

वयावृतà¥à¤¤à¤‚

 

राहà¥à¤° अरà¥à¤•à¤®

उपेषà¥à¤¯à¤¤à¤¿

 

थिवश चॊलà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤ƒ

पतनà¥à¤¤à¥à¤¯ à¤à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

 

सनिरà¥à¤˜à¤¾à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

सकमà¥à¤ªà¤¨à¤¾à¤ƒ [10]

 

 

 

Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and

 

from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the

 

earth shake. [10]

 

 

 

 

 

पराथà¥à¤°à¥à¤­à¥‚तेषà¥

चैतेषॠभयम

 

आहà¥à¤° उपसà¥à¤¦à¤¿à¤¤à¤®

 

निमितà¥à¤¤à¥‡à¤·à¥

महाबाहॊ थारà¥à¤£à¤‚

 

पराणिनाशनम [12]

 

 

 

When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is at

 

hand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of living

 

beings.[12]

 

 

 

 

 

[Reference http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05047 .htm]

 

Udyog Parva 5.47

 

 

 

उचà¥à¤šà¤¾à¤µà¤šà¤‚

थैवयà¥à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤‚

रहसà¥à¤¯à¤‚;

 

थिवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤ƒ परशà¥à¤¨à¤¾

मृगचकà¥à¤°à¤¾

 

मà¥à¤¹à¥‚रà¥à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

 

कषयं महानà¥à¤¤à¤‚

कà¥à¤°à¥à¤¸à¥ƒà¤žà¥à¤œà¤¯à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚\

;

 

निवेथयनà¥à¤¤à¥‡

पाणà¥à¤¡à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚ जयं

च

[93]

 

 

 

Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answering

 

questions regarding coming events, understanding the signs of

 

the zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and the

 

Srinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas.

 

 

 

 

 

Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictions

 

were common occurrence and we know the

 

date of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch these

 

events took place.

 

 

 

In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any reference

 

as to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/ Chaldeans etc.

 

knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was

 

being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence.

 

 

 

You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please

 

point out a primary source that I can check which mentions that

 

Greeks were using astrology in 532 B.C.

 

 

 

Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia.

 

 

 

Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where

 

he says what you mention in the article?

 

 

 

[Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at

 

 

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5240

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sunil Da,

 

Kaul Ji avoids any discussion with me and deputed a disciple to abuse me after I

pointed out errors in his wrong computation of ayanamsha (wrong by 24 degrees

!). In the light of following statement by you, I want to know whether Kaul Ji

thinks Mahabharata War took place after the Buddha, or did not ever take place

at all ?

 

<<< " Now he wants Khokraji to prove that the date of Mahabharata was before

532 BCE. He says that there is no consensus on the date of the

Mahabharata. We must admire the tenacity of Kaulji. " >>>

 

-VJ

 

========================== ==

 

 

________________________________

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

vedic_research_institute

Cc: ; vedic astrology ;

indiaarchaeology

Monday, July 6, 2009 7:26:13 PM

[vedic astrology] Re: [VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were

imported into India!

 

 

 

 

 

Dear friends,

 

1)

Shri Kaulji has says as follows:

 

Quote

 

This date of astrology

in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of

the Calendar Reform Committee.

 

Unquote

 

This date of 532 BC was not given by Dr. Meghnad Saha alone as the Calendar

reform committee was not a one-man committee. How can Kaulji ignore the other

members of the committee or does he consider the other members to be having

lesaser integrity than Dr. Meghnad Saha? Being a Bhattachar(j) ya I would

however not feel bad if lot of respect is shown to Dr. Meghnad Saha. Further as

it was not specifically

mentioned that the decision was unanimous Dr. Meghnad Saha could have

been a dissident also..

 

2)

Then he quotes the Calendar Reform Committee as follows :

 

Quote

 

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries

before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by

astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced

by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532

BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation

‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic.

 

Unquote

 

The commiittee simply says that Cleostratos supposedly observed the signs in

about 532 BCE. From the words " supposedly " and " about 532 BC " any reasonable

pereson will know that 532 is not a confirmed date. Yet as it suits him, KauljI

conveniently takes it as the confirmed date.

 

3)

Shri kaul quotes further:

 

Quote

 

The twelve

‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like

the

Brahmanas.

 

Unquote

 

The committee says that the Zodiacal signs are not there in the ritualistic

Indian literature like the Brahmanas but it did not say that the signs are not

there in the non-ritualitic literature like Purana, which is given the exalted

status of the Fith Veda by the Veda itself.

 

4)

Thus the above statements definitely show that the committe (not Dr. Meghnad

Saha alone) was neither sure of the of the date of 532 BC at all nor it says

that the signs are not there in the Puranas, ie. the Fifth Veda.

 

5)

When the date of 532 BCE itself has nort been confirmed by the Calendar Reform

Committee Sri Kaulji takes that date of 532 BC like a Veda-vakya or for the

non-Hindus like a gospel truth. With no firm basis for the date of 532 BC he

(Kaulji) is now feigning ignorance as to whether the date of the Mahabharata is

before 532 BCE or not and he is asking Khokraji to give the confirmed date of

the Mahabharata with evidence. He says as follows :

 

Quote

 

Would

you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the

epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how

and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work.

 

Unquote

 

Now he wants Khokraji to prove that the date of Mahabharata was before 532 BCE.

He says that there is no consensus on the date of the Mahabharata. We must

admire the tenacity of Kaulji.

 

This situation is now somewhat like a story which runs like this: Shri " X " had a

bet with Shri " Y " that if the item " R " is proved to be there in the Veda and

Vedanga Jyotisha then " X " will commit suicide. Then a friend of " X " asked him

not to take that bet as he ( " X " ) will certainly lose the bet. Then " X " tells his

friend not to worry and says that he ( " X " ) can lose the bet only if he admits

that he has lost. He assured his friend that he ( " X " ) would never admit that he

had lost the bet.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

--- On Mon, 7/6/09, jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:

 

jyotirved <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

" jyotirved " <jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>

Monday, July 6, 2009, 1:50 AM

 

 

 

 

 

jyotirved

[jyotirved@ sify.com]

 

Monday, July 06, 2009 2:14 PM

 

'abhinavagupta'

 

RE: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

 

 

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

 

Namaskar!

 

You have asked information about

some points, one being, “You

gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please point out a

primary source that I can check which mentions that Greeks were using astrology

in 532 B.C.â€

 

This date of astrology

in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of

the Calendar Reform Committee. I quote the relevant passage once again,

“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries

before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by

astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced

by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532

BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation

‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. The twelve

‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like

the

Brahmanas. They appear to have come to India in the wake of the

Macedonian Greeks or of nations like the Sakas who were intermediaries for

transmission of Greek culture to India…..â€. Dr. Saha was a

scientist of repute, whose integrity cannot be questioned by

anybody.

 

Another point is,

“Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where he says what

you mention in the article?â€

 

This “exact quoteâ€

has been quoted from pages 192 to 194 of the “Report of the (Saha) Calendar

Reform Committeeâ€.

 

In your summary about the references of astrological

predictions in the Mahabharata, you have said, “Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C.

by many

centuries if not millenniaâ€.

 

There has already been a lot of discussion about the

date of Mahabharata in Abhinavagupta forum and other forums and papers.

There is no consensus about either the “starting date†or the “concluding

dateâ€

of the composition/ revelation/ compilation of the Mahabharata epic. Would

you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the

epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how

and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work. May be,

while trying to arrive at those dates, you will find an answer yourself, to

your own question.

 

Pl. rest assured that these are no delaying tactics, but an honest

effort to arrive at Truth and nothing but Truth.

 

In the end of your post, you have said, “So I'm not against

the lines of public inquiry you are pursuing, but there is the danger of

throwing the baby out with the bath-water,, ,†Yes, you are absolutely

right that we should not throw the “baby out with the bath-waterâ€, but we

must

at the same time let not the “baby wallow in the muddy water†either since

in

the former case, at least there are chances of her survival, whereas in the

latter

case, the baby ill suffocate to death.

 

And that is exactly

the “Vedic Hindus†have been doing over the last couple of millennia:

wallowing

in the mud of predictive gimmicks, which they call these days “Vedic

astrologyâ€

and continue to celebrate all the festivals and muhurtas on wrong days at least

over the last several centuries, ever since Grahalaghava!

 

We must put a full

stop to it.

 

With regards,

 

A. K. Kaul

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Response to Shri Shivraj’s post of Jul

3 2009 at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5247]

 

 

 

#5247 july 3, 09

 

Re: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis

were imported into India!

 

 

 

Avtarji,

 

Pranaam!

 

Abhinavagupta,

Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:

 

>

 

> Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

 

>

 

> Namaskar!

 

>

 

> You have said, in #5224,

 

>

 

> a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of

 

> the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

 

> b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files

 

> section of most of the forums.

 

>

 

> This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually

 

> imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,

 

> who headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee

 

>

 

Here are few verses from Mahabharata:

 

[Reference: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05141 .htm]

 

[Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the

 

brahmi fonts render correctly]

 

Udyog Parva 5.141

 

पराजापतà¥à¤¯à¤‚ हि

नकà¥à¤·à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤‚ गरहस

 

तीकà¥à¤·à¥à¤£à¥Š

महाथà¥à¤¯à¥à¤¤à¤¿à¤ƒ

 

शनैशà¥à¤šà¤°à¤ƒ

पीडयति पीडयन

 

पराणिनॊ ऽधिकम [7]

 

That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn)

 

troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to

 

living beings. [7]

 

कृतà¥à¤µà¤¾

चाङà¥à¤—ारकॊ

वकà¥à¤°à¤‚

 

जयेषà¥à¤ ायां

मधà¥à¤¸à¥‚थन

 

अनà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤§à¤¾à¤‚

परारà¥à¤¦à¤¯à¤¤à¥‡

मैतà¥à¤°à¤‚

 

संशमयनà¥à¤¨ इव [8]

 

The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquely

 

to the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towards

 

Anuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8]

 

सॊमसà¥à¤¯ लकà¥à¤·à¥à¤®

वयावृतà¥à¤¤à¤‚

 

राहà¥à¤° अरà¥à¤•à¤®

उपेषà¥à¤¯à¤¤à¤¿

 

थिवश चॊलà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤ƒ

पतनà¥à¤¤à¥à¤¯ à¤à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

 

सनिरà¥à¤˜à¤¾à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

सकमà¥à¤ªà¤¨à¤¾à¤ƒ [10]

 

Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and

 

from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the

 

earth shake. [10]

 

पराथà¥à¤°à¥à¤­à¥‚तेषà¥

चैतेषॠभयम

 

आहà¥à¤° उपसà¥à¤¦à¤¿à¤¤à¤®

 

निमितà¥à¤¤à¥‡à¤·à¥

महाबाहॊ थारà¥à¤£à¤‚

 

पराणिनाशनम [12]

 

When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is at

 

hand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of living

 

beings.[12]

 

[Reference http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05047 .htm]

 

Udyog Parva 5.47

 

उचà¥à¤šà¤¾à¤µà¤šà¤‚

थैवयà¥à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤‚

रहसà¥à¤¯à¤‚;

 

थिवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤ƒ परशà¥à¤¨à¤¾

मृगचकà¥à¤°à¤¾

 

मà¥à¤¹à¥‚रà¥à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

 

कषयं महानà¥à¤¤à¤‚

कà¥à¤°à¥à¤¸à¥ƒà¤žà¥à¤œà¤¯à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚\

;

 

निवेथयनà¥à¤¤à¥‡

पाणà¥à¤¡à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚ जयं

च

[93]

 

Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answering

 

questions regarding coming events, understanding the signs of

 

the zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and the

 

Srinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas.

 

Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictions

 

were common occurrence and we know the

 

date of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch these

 

events took place.

 

In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any reference

 

as to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/ Chaldeans etc.

 

knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was

 

being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence.

 

You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please

 

point out a primary source that I can check which mentions that

 

Greeks were using astrology in 532 B.C.

 

Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia.

 

Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where

 

he says what you mention in the article?

 

[Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5240

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,1)Shri Kaulji has says as follows:QuoteThis date of astrology

in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of

the Calendar Reform Committee. Unquote

This date of 532 BC was not given by Dr. Meghnad Saha alone as the Calendar

reform committee was not a one-man committee. How can Kaulji ignore the other members of the committee or does he consider the other members to be having lesaser integrity than Dr. Meghnad Saha? Being a Bhattachar(j)ya I would however not feel bad if lot of respect is shown to Dr. Meghnad Saha. Further as it was not specifically

mentioned that the decision was unanimous Dr. Meghnad Saha could have

been a dissident also.2)Then he quotes the Calendar Reform Committee as follows :Quote“These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries

before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by

astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced

by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532

BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation

‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. UnquoteThe commiittee simply says that Cleostratos supposedly observed the signs in about 532 BCE. From the words "supposedly" and "about 532 BC" any reasonable pereson will know that 532 is not a confirmed date. Yet as it suits him, KauljI conveniently takes it as the confirmed date. 3)Shri kaul quotes further:QuoteThe twelve

‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the

Brahmanas. UnquoteThe committee says that the Zodiacal signs are not there in the ritualistic Indian literature like the Brahmanas but it did not say that the signs are not there in the non-ritualitic literature like Purana, which is given the exalted status of the Fith Veda by the Veda itself.4)Thus the above statements definitely show that the committe (not Dr. Meghnad Saha alone) was neither sure of the of the date of 532 BC at all nor it says that the signs are not there in the Puranas, ie. the Fifth Veda.5)When the date of 532 BCE itself has nort been confirmed by the Calendar Reform Committee Sri Kaulji takes that date of 532 BC like a Veda-vakya or for the non-Hindus like a gospel truth. With no firm basis for the date of 532 BC he (Kaulji) is now feigning ignorance as to whether the date of the Mahabharata is before 532 BCE or

not and he is asking Khokraji to give the confirmed date of the Mahabharata with evidence. He says as follows :QuoteWould

you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the

epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how

and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work. UnquoteNow he wants Khokraji to prove that the date of Mahabharata was before 532 BCE. He says that there is no consensus on the date of the Mahabharata. We must admire the tenacity of Kaulji. This situation is now somewhat like a story which runs like this: Shri "X" had a bet with Shri "Y" that if the item "R" is proved to be there in the Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha then "X" will commit suicide. Then a friend of "X" asked him not to take that bet as he ("X") will certainly lose the bet. Then "X" tells his friend not to worry and says that he ("X") can lose the bet only if he admits that he has lost. He assured his friend that he ("X") would never admit that he had lost the bet. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Mon, 7/6/09, jyotirved <jyotirved

wrote:jyotirved <jyotirved[VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!"jyotirved" <jyotirvedMonday, July 6, 2009, 1:50 AM

 

 

 

 

jyotirved

[jyotirved@ sify.com]

Monday, July 06, 2009 2:14 PM

'abhinavagupta'

RE: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!

 

Shri Shivraj Khokraji, Namaskar! You have asked information about

some points, one being, “You

gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please point out a

primary source that I can check which mentions that Greeks were using astrology

in 532 B.C.†This date of astrology

in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of

the Calendar Reform Committee. I quote the relevant passage once again, “These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries

before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by

astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced

by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532

BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation

‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. The twelve

‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the

Brahmanas. They appear to have come to India in the wake of the

Macedonian Greeks or of nations like the Sakas who were intermediaries for

transmission of Greek culture to India…..â€. Dr. Saha was a

scientist of repute, whose integrity cannot be questioned by

anybody. Another point is,

“Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where he says what

you mention in the article?†This “exact quoteâ€

has been quoted from pages 192 to 194 of the “Report of the (Saha) Calendar

Reform Committeeâ€.

In your summary about the references of astrological

predictions in the Mahabharata, you have said, “Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many

centuries if not millenniaâ€.

There has already been a lot of discussion about the

date of Mahabharata in Abhinavagupta forum and other forums and papers.

There is no consensus about either the “starting date†or the “concluding dateâ€

of the composition/ revelation/ compilation of the Mahabharata epic. Would

you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the

epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how

and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work. May be,

while trying to arrive at those dates, you will find an answer yourself, to

your own question. Pl. rest assured that these are no delaying tactics, but an honest

effort to arrive at Truth and nothing but Truth. In the end of your post, you have said, “So I'm not against

the lines of public inquiry you are pursuing, but there is the danger of

throwing the baby out with the bath-water,, ,†Yes, you are absolutely

right that we should not throw the “baby out with the bath-waterâ€, but we must

at the same time let not the “baby wallow in the muddy water†either since in

the former case, at least there are chances of her survival, whereas in the latter

case, the baby ill suffocate to death. And that is exactly

the “Vedic Hindus†have been doing over the last couple of millennia: wallowing

in the mud of predictive gimmicks, which they call these days “Vedic astrologyâ€

and continue to celebrate all the festivals and muhurtas on wrong days at least

over the last several centuries, ever since Grahalaghava! We must put a full

stop to it. With regards,

A. K. Kaul [Response to Shri Shivraj’s post of Jul

3 2009 at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5247] #5247 july 3, 09 Re: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis

were imported into India! Avtarji,

Pranaam!

Abhinavagupta,

Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:

>

> Shri Shivraj Khokraji,

>

> Namaskar!

>

> You have said, in #5224,

>

> a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of

> the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?

> b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?

>

>

>

> I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files

> section of most of the forums.

>

> This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually

> imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,

> who headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee

>

 

Here are few verses from Mahabharata:

[Reference: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05141 .htm]

[Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the

brahmi fonts render correctly]

 

Udyog Parva 5.141

पराजापतà¥à¤¯à¤‚ हि नकà¥à¤·à¤¤à¥à¤°à¤‚ गरहस

तीकà¥à¤·à¥à¤£à¥Š महाथà¥à¤¯à¥à¤¤à¤¿à¤ƒ

शनैशà¥à¤šà¤°à¤ƒ पीडयति पीडयन

पराणिनॊ ऽधिकम [7]

 

That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn)

troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to

living beings. [7]

 

 

कृतà¥à¤µà¤¾ चाङà¥à¤—ारकॊ वकà¥à¤°à¤‚

जयेषà¥à¤ ायां मधà¥à¤¸à¥‚थन

अनà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤§à¤¾à¤‚ परारà¥à¤¦à¤¯à¤¤à¥‡ मैतà¥à¤°à¤‚

संशमयनà¥à¤¨ इव [8]

 

The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquely

to the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towards

Anuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8]

 

 

 

सॊमसà¥à¤¯ लकà¥à¤·à¥à¤® वयावृतà¥à¤¤à¤‚

राहà¥à¤° अरà¥à¤•à¤® उपेषà¥à¤¯à¤¤à¤¿

थिवश चॊलà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤ƒ पतनà¥à¤¤à¥à¤¯ à¤à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

सनिरà¥à¤˜à¤¾à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ सकमà¥à¤ªà¤¨à¤¾à¤ƒ [10]

 

Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and

from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the

earth shake. [10]

 

 

पराथà¥à¤°à¥à¤­à¥‚तेषॠचैतेषॠभयम

आहà¥à¤° उपसà¥à¤¦à¤¿à¤¤à¤®

निमितà¥à¤¤à¥‡à¤·à¥ महाबाहॊ थारà¥à¤£à¤‚

पराणिनाशनम [12]

 

When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is at

hand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of living

beings.[12]

 

 

[Reference http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05047 .htm]

Udyog Parva 5.47

 

उचà¥à¤šà¤¾à¤µà¤šà¤‚ थैवयà¥à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤‚ रहसà¥à¤¯à¤‚;

थिवà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤ƒ परशà¥à¤¨à¤¾ मृगचकà¥à¤°à¤¾

मà¥à¤¹à¥‚रà¥à¤¤à¤¾à¤ƒ

कषयं महानà¥à¤¤à¤‚ कà¥à¤°à¥à¤¸à¥ƒà¤žà¥à¤œà¤¯à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚;

निवेथयनà¥à¤¤à¥‡ पाणà¥à¤¡à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¤¾à¤‚ जयं च

[93]

 

Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answering

questions regarding coming events, understanding the signs of

the zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and the

Srinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas.

 

 

Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictions

were common occurrence and we know the

date of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch these

events took place.

 

In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any reference

as to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/ Chaldeans etc.

knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was

being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence.

 

You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please

point out a primary source that I can check which mentions that

Greeks were using astrology in 532 B.C.

 

Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia.

 

Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where

he says what you mention in the article?

 

[Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at

 

http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5240

[Guest guest]

dear sunil Bhattacharjya ji Here is an excerpt frm shri pingree 's article called sanskrit geographical tablets who is Kauls god father and whose words r amrita vani for him here is the reference -sanskrit geographical tablets by david Pingree --published by IJHS ( indian journal of history of science )Here is it "It must hav been noticed from the earliest time s in india that the sun's shadow at a purticular time -eg-Mid DaY -varies both with seasons and with the movement of the observer to north or south ,indeed such a report is made by the sea men of indian ocean was recorded by Alexander the great's Admiral NEARCHUS for he says " The shadows did not do the same thing for them ,but when they advanced in the sea to south ,those shadows appeared turn to south and when the sun attained the middle of the day ,all of their shadows was seeb to be Null " it cannot be however that this actualy occured to NEARCHUS because he set sail frm the moth of Indus ( only possiblity Lattitude of abt 27 dgree N ) at the begining of sept ( when Sun was close to equator ) and proceeded along the coast to the west <while the sun 's declination was becoming more southern .So he must hav only reported what he was told by others Now another important observations frm Megastenes who was greek ambassodor to the court of chandra gupta Maurya Megastanes who was the Ambassodor of seleucus 1 to the court of Chandra gupta Mauraya in the early years of 3rd century BC reported ( again Like Nearchus Using the information obtained frm others where as if reporting as if his own report ) That the cape of india ( again it is kanya kumari ) here the doubt is dwaraka in saurashtra region whose Lattitude was 22.15 degree N ) The gnomons cast no shadows .so from all this we can make out that the greeks were wondering abt the astronomical knowldge of indians where as same passage mr pingree has the guts to connect all indian contributions as if imported frm greece and AKK kaul says it is alexanders invasion that we got all astronomical and astrological knowledge ( where as frm pingree s own admissions we can see what is truth ) as regrds to his calender if and when he is ready to do his vedic calender in presence of a grp or spl invitees we can see the cat will come of bag that without rasies he cannot do vedic calender and hence the rasies has to b admitted by him ,that is the main reason he wont do it even after 100 requests by me as internet is a good place for ppl who has suffiecnt time like kaul who is getting financial benefit for his work unlike us that is the main reason why he wanted to prolong this discussion and i request to shri sunil bhattacharjyaji to resign frm such activities where kaul and his gang benefits actualy all or most of those ids are kaul himself and which he uses to re enter in any failed discussions in pretext of answering such ids even last id frm sivarama pattar is another exmple in hindu civilisation grp .here is an excerpt frm Megastanses frm indica The whole population of India is divided into seven castes, of which the first

is formed by the collective body of the Philosophers, which in point of

number is inferior to the other classes, but in point of dignity

preeminent over all. For the philosophers, being exempted from all

public duties, are neither the masters nor the servants of others. They

are, however, engaged by private persons to offer the sacrifices due in

lifetime, and to celebrate the obsequies of the dead: for they are believed to

be most dear to the gods, and to be the most conversant with matters

pertaining to Hades. In requital of such services they receive valuable

gifts and privileges. To the people of India at large they also render

great benefits, when, gathered together at the beginning of the year,

they forewarn the assembled multitudes about droughts and. wet weather,

and also about propitious winds, and diseases, and other topics capable

of profiting-the hearers. Thus the people and the sovereign, learning

beforehand what is to happen, always make adequate provision against a

coming deficiency, and never fail to prepare beforehand what will help

in a time of need. The philosopher who errs in his predictions incurs

no other penalty than obloquy, and he then observes silence for the

rest of his life.actualy kaul shud publicly apoligise for spreading false propaganda against hindu s and their scrpitures and i lov the thought of even some Talibanist ,or some manu smriti methods on kaul for this wilful missionary actions by him ( like a a brahmin who is corrupt shud made sit on some hot iron plate -if he is still a brahmin which he claims and that is what he uses as his licence to spread every thing bad against hindus ) other wise he shud hav irrefutable proofs for his claims other wise he shud b stoped frm all hindu grps atleast like the way he was banned frm astrology grps .For stopping all his missionary induced agendas rgrds sunil nair ps --even i was fed up of him as i know 1000 proofs will not satisfy him ( as he deliberate ) and only action shud b some public interest litigation in supreme court of india and where he has to proov all rasies are imported frm west to indian astrology .Do any hindu real so called kshatriyas ( foot soldiers of hindu organisations ) hearing this ??who other wise has all vocal power for unneccessary things , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear friends,> > 1)> Shri Kaulji has says as follows:> > Quote> > This date of astrology> in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of> the Calendar Reform Committee. > > Unquote> > > > This date of 532 BC was not given by Dr. Meghnad Saha alone as the Calendar> reform committee was not a one-man committee. How can Kaulji ignore the other members of the committee or does he consider the other members to be having lesaser integrity than Dr. Meghnad Saha? Being a Bhattachar(j)ya I would however not feel bad if lot of respect is shown to Dr. Meghnad Saha. Further as it was not specifically> mentioned that the decision was unanimous Dr. Meghnad Saha could have> been a dissident also.> > 2)> Then he quotes the Calendar Reform Committee as follows :> > Quote> > “These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries> before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by> astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced> by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532> BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation> ‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. > > Unquote> > The commiittee simply says that Cleostratos supposedly observed the signs in about 532 BCE. From the words "supposedly" and "about 532 BC" any reasonable pereson will know that 532 is not a confirmed date. Yet as it suits him, KauljI conveniently takes it as the confirmed date. > > 3)> Shri kaul quotes further:> > Quote> > The twelve> ‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the> Brahmanas. > > Unquote> > The committee says that the Zodiacal signs are not there in the ritualistic Indian literature like the Brahmanas but it did not say that the signs are not there in the non-ritualitic literature like Purana, which is given the exalted status of the Fith Veda by the Veda itself.> > 4)> Thus the above statements definitely show that the committe (not Dr. Meghnad Saha alone) was neither sure of the of the date of 532 BC at all nor it says that the signs are not there in the Puranas, ie. the Fifth Veda.> > 5)> When the date of 532 BCE itself has nort been confirmed by the Calendar Reform Committee Sri Kaulji takes that date of 532 BC like a Veda-vakya or for the non-Hindus like a gospel truth. With no firm basis for the date of 532 BC he (Kaulji) is now feigning ignorance as to whether the date of the Mahabharata is before 532 BCE or not and he is asking Khokraji to give the confirmed date of the Mahabharata with evidence. He says as follows :> > Quote> > Would> you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the> epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how> and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work. > > Unquote> > Now he wants Khokraji to prove that the date of Mahabharata was before 532 BCE. He says that there is no consensus on the date of the Mahabharata. We must admire the tenacity of Kaulji. > > This situation is now somewhat like a story which runs like this: Shri "X" had a bet with Shri "Y" that if the item "R" is proved to be there in the Veda and Vedanga Jyotisha then "X" will commit suicide. Then a friend of "X" asked him not to take that bet as he ("X") will certainly lose the bet. Then "X" tells his friend not to worry and says that he ("X") can lose the bet only if he admits that he has lost. He assured his friend that he ("X") would never admit that he had lost the bet. > > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > --- On Mon, 7/6/09, jyotirved jyotirved wrote:> > jyotirved jyotirved [VRI] FW: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India!> "jyotirved" jyotirved Monday, July 6, 2009, 1:50 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > >  > > > > > > jyotirved> [jyotirved@ sify.com] > > Monday, July 06, 2009 2:14 PM> > 'abhinavagupta'> > RE: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis were imported into India! > > > > > >  > > Shri Shivraj Khokraji, > > Namaskar! > > You have asked information about> some points, one being, “You> gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please point out a> primary source that I can check which mentions that Greeks were using astrology> in 532 B.C.†> > This date of astrology> in 532 BC has been given by Dr. Meghnad Saha (and not by me!) in the Report of> the Calendar Reform Committee. I quote the relevant passage once again, “These signs were taken up by almost all nations in the centuries> before the Christian era on account of the significance attached to them by> astrologers. In Greece, they were first supposed to have been introduced> by the early Greek astronomer Cleostratos, an astronomer who observed about 532> BC in the island of Tenedos off the Hellespont who introduced the designation> ‘Zodiac’ to describe the belt of stars about the ecliptic. The twelve> ‘Zodiacal Signs’ are not known in older ritualistic Indian literature like the> Brahmanas. They appear to have come to India in the wake of the> Macedonian Greeks or of nations like the Sakas who were intermediaries for> transmission of Greek culture to India…..â€. Dr. Saha was a> scientist of repute, whose integrity cannot be questioned  by> anybody. > > Another point is,> “Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where he says what> you mention in the article?†> > This “exact quoteâ€> has been quoted from pages 192 to 194 of the “Report of the (Saha) Calendar> Reform Committeeâ€.> > In your summary about the references of astrological> predictions in the Mahabharata, you have said, “Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many> centuries if not millenniaâ€.> > There has already been a lot of discussion about the> date of Mahabharata in Abhinavagupta forum and other forums and papers. > There is no consensus about either the “starting date†or the “concluding dateâ€> of the composition/ revelation/ compilation of the Mahabharata epic. Would> you kindly give me your opinion, with evidence, about both these dates of the> epic as that would make things easier for me to answer your questions as to how> and when the predictive part of jyotisha crept into that work. May be,> while trying to arrive at those dates, you will find an answer yourself, to> your own question. > > Pl. rest assured that these are no delaying tactics, but an honest> effort to arrive at Truth and nothing but Truth. > > In the end of your post, you have said, “So I'm not against> the lines of public inquiry you are pursuing, but there is the danger of> throwing the baby out with the bath-water,, ,â€Â Yes, you are absolutely> right that we should not throw the “baby out with the bath-waterâ€, but we must> at the same time let not the “baby wallow in the muddy water†either since in> the former case, at least there are chances of her survival, whereas in the latter> case, the baby ill suffocate to death. > > And that is exactly> the “Vedic Hindus†have been doing over the last couple of millennia: wallowing> in the mud of predictive gimmicks, which they call these days “Vedic astrologyâ€> and continue to celebrate all the festivals and muhurtas on wrong days at least> over the last several centuries, ever since Grahalaghava! > > We must put a full> stop to it. > > With regards,> > A. K. Kaul > >  > >  > >  > >  [Response to Shri Shivraj’s post of Jul> 3 2009 at> > > > http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5247] > >  > > #5247 july 3, 09 > > Re: Proofs that Mesha etc. rashis> were imported into India! > >  > > Avtarji,> > Pranaam!> > Abhinavagupta,> Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote:> > >> > > Shri Shivraj Khokraji,> > >> > > Namaskar!> > >> > > You have said, in #5224,> > >> > > a) Did Greeks, Irano-Chaldeans, etc., know about twelve fold division of> > > the ecliptic before the Vedic Hindus?> > > b) Did Greeks etc. use cosmos for predicting events prior to Vedic times?> > >> > >> > >> > > I am giving an excerpt from my paper Rashi5.pdf which is in the files> > > section of most of the forums.> > >> > > This will clarify, beyond all the doubts, that the zodiac was actually> > > imported into India, as proved by Dr. Meghnad Saha, the eminent scientist,> > > who headed the 1954 (Saha) Calendar Reform Committee> > >> > > > Here are few verses from Mahabharata:> > [Reference: http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05141 .htm]> > [Please turn on UTF-8 encoding in your browser to see the> > brahmi fonts render correctly]> > > > Udyog Parva 5.141> > à ¤ªà ¤°à ¤¾à ¤Å"à ¤¾à ¤ªà ¤¤à ¥à ¤¯à ¤‚ à ¤¹à ¤¿ à ¤¨à ¤•à ¥à ¤·à ¤¤à ¥à ¤°à ¤‚ à ¤â€"à ¤°à ¤¹à ¤¸> > à ¤¤à ¥€à ¤•à ¥à ¤·à ¥à ¤£à ¥Šà ¤®à ¤¹à ¤¾à ¤¥à ¥à ¤¯à ¥à ¤¤à ¤¿à ¤Æ'> > à ¤¶à ¤¨à ¥ˆà ¤¶à ¥à ¤šà ¤°à ¤Æ' à ¤ªà ¥€à ¤¡à ¤¯à ¤¤à ¤¿ à ¤ªà ¥€à ¤¡à ¤¯à ¤¨> > à ¤ªà ¤°à ¤¾à ¤£à ¤¿à ¤¨à ¥Šà ¤½à ¤§à ¤¿à ¤•à ¤® [7]> > > > That active planet of great effulgence Shanaishchara (Saturn)> > troubles the star Prajaptaya indicating greater troubles to> > living beings. [7]> > > > > > à ¤•à ¥Æ'à ¤¤à ¥à ¤µà ¤¾ à ¤šà ¤¾à ¤™à ¥à ¤â€"à ¤¾à ¤°à ¤•à ¥Šà ¤µà ¤•à ¥à ¤°à ¤‚> > à ¤Å"à ¤¯à ¥‡à ¤·à ¥à ¤ à ¤¾à ¤¯à ¤¾à ¤‚ à ¤®à ¤§à ¥à ¤¸à ¥‚à ¤¥à ¤¨> > à ¤…à ¤¨à ¥à ¤°à ¤¾à ¤§à ¤¾à ¤‚ à ¤ªà ¤°à ¤¾à ¤°à ¥à ¤¦à ¤¯à ¤¤à ¥‡ à ¤®à ¥ˆà ¤¤à ¥à ¤°à ¤‚> > à ¤¸à ¤‚à ¤¶à ¤®à ¤¯à ¤¨à ¥à ¤¨ à ¤‡à ¤µ [8]> > > > The planet Angaraka (Mars or Mangal in Hindi) travels obliquely> > to the constellation Jyestha, O slayer of Madhu, and goes towards> > Anuradha as if seeking its friendship. [8]> > > > > > > > à ¤¸à ¥Šà ¤®à ¤¸à ¥à ¤¯ à ¤²à ¤•à ¥à ¤·à ¥à ¤® à ¤µà ¤¯à ¤¾à ¤µà ¥Æ'à ¤¤à ¥à ¤¤à ¤‚> > à ¤°à ¤¾à ¤¹à ¥à ¤° à ¤…à ¤°à ¥à ¤•à ¤® à ¤‰à ¤ªà ¥‡à ¤·à ¥à ¤¯à ¤¤à ¤¿> > à ¤¥à ¤¿à ¤µà ¤¶ à ¤šà ¥Šà ¤²à ¥à ¤•à ¤¾à ¤Æ' à ¤ªà ¤¤à ¤¨à ¥à ¤¤à ¥à ¤¯ à ¤à ¤¤à ¤¾à ¤Æ'> > à ¤¸à ¤¨à ¤¿à ¤°à ¥à ¤˜à ¤¾à ¤¤à ¤¾à ¤Æ' à ¤¸à ¤•à ¤®à ¥à ¤ªà ¤¨à ¤¾à ¤Æ' [10]> > > > Rahu comes to the Sun which has covered the path of the moon and> > from the heavens fall down meteors with loud noise and making the> > earth shake. [10]> > > > > > à ¤ªà ¤°à ¤¾à ¤¥à ¥à ¤°à ¥à ¤­à ¥‚à ¤¤à ¥‡à ¤·à ¥ à ¤šà ¥ˆà ¤¤à ¥‡à ¤·à ¥ à ¤­à ¤¯à ¤®> > à ¤†à ¤¹à ¥à ¤° à ¤‰à ¤ªà ¤¸à ¥à ¤¦à ¤¿à ¤¤à ¤®> > à ¤¨à ¤¿à ¤®à ¤¿à ¤¤à ¥à ¤¤à ¥‡à ¤·à ¥ à ¤®à ¤¹à ¤¾à ¤¬à ¤¾à ¤¹à ¥Šà ¤¥à ¤¾à ¤°à ¥à ¤£à ¤‚> > à ¤ªà ¤°à ¤¾à ¤£à ¤¿à ¤¨à ¤¾à ¤¶à ¤¨à ¤® [12]> > > > When such omens prevail it is said that a great calamity is at> > hand causing, O you of long arms, a very great massacre of living> > beings.[12]> > > > > > [Reference http://www.sacred- texts.com/ hin/mbs/mbs05047 .htm]> > Udyog Parva 5.47> > > > à ¤‰à ¤šà ¥à ¤šà ¤¾à ¤µà ¤šà ¤‚ à ¤¥à ¥ˆà ¤µà ¤¯à ¥à ¤•à ¥à ¤¤à ¤‚ à ¤°à ¤¹à ¤¸à ¥à ¤¯à ¤‚;> > à ¤¥à ¤¿à ¤µà ¥à ¤¯à ¤¾à ¤Æ' à ¤ªà ¤°à ¤¶à ¥à ¤¨à ¤¾ à ¤®à ¥Æ'à ¤â€"à ¤šà ¤•à ¥à ¤°à ¤¾> > à ¤®à ¥à ¤¹à ¥‚à ¤°à ¥à ¤¤à ¤¾à ¤Æ'> > à ¤•à ¤·à ¤¯à ¤‚ à ¤®à ¤¹à ¤¾à ¤¨à ¥à ¤¤à ¤‚ à ¤•à ¥à ¤°à ¥à ¤¸à ¥Æ'à ¤žà ¥à ¤Å"à ¤¯à ¤¾à ¤¨à ¤¾à ¤‚;> > à ¤¨à ¤¿à ¤µà ¥‡à ¤¥à ¤¯à ¤¨à ¥à ¤¤à ¥‡ à ¤ªà ¤¾à ¤£à ¥à ¤¡à ¤µà ¤¾à ¤¨à ¤¾à ¤‚ à ¤Å"à ¤¯à ¤‚ à ¤š> [93]> > > > Capable of explaining the mysteries of the Gods and of answering> > questions regarding coming events, understanding the signs of> > the zodiac, prophesying the great overthrow of the Kurus and the> > Srinjayas and the triumph of the Pandavas.> > > > > > Based on above data we can safely conclude Astrological predictions> > were common occurrence and we know the> > date of Mahabharata so we can conclude at what epoch these> > events took place.> > > > In the paper you have uploaded I could not find any reference> > as to when in time it can be proved that Babylonians/ Chaldeans etc.> > knew zodiac and if they used predictive astrology as was> > being practiced in India? Please provide some datable evidence.> > > > You gave a date of 532 B.C. for Greeks knowing the zodiac. Please> > point out a primary source that I can check which mentions that> > Greeks were using astrology in 532 B.C.> > > > Mahabharata precedes 532 B.C. by many centuries if not millennia.> > > > Regarding Dr. Saha can you please provide an exact quote where> > he says what you mention in the article?> > > > [Response to Avtarji's post of Jul 1 2009 at> > > > http://groups. / group/Abhinavagu pta/message/ 5240 > >  > >  > >  >