Guest guest Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 Dear All, Let us go by the classics on this. What are the results to be attributed to Saturn in 6th? As per Garga Hora -Shashte neechagataH souro janayet neecha vairinamAnyadha vairinam hanti nirvairaH swagriham gataH[if Saturn is in 6th house in debilitation, then that native will have a de-generated (cruel, bad) enemy; OR the enemy will have a bad defeat. If Saturn is placed in 6th in his own house, then the native (will have enemies, but) will destroy the enemies] In the above quote 2 results for Saturn in 6th is given. The second result attributed is that, if Saturn is in 6th in own house then native will destroy enemies. This implicitly means that Saturn in 6th in own house, causes the enemies to flourish (i.e. the native will have many enemies) but also causes the courage, will, valor and cruelty of the native also to flourish thus providing victory to native in all such fights against enemies. This is logical and understandable. Here flourishing of the enemies is told specially because the 6th lord (i.e. Saturn) is in his own house and is strong.Now what if Saturn, the malefic planet in 6th is week and debilitated? Note that nothing is known about the condition of 6th lord here. The only major thing we know is that there is a malefic but week, and thus resorting to crooked deeds planet Saturn is in 6th house. This should definitely cause destruction to the things indicated by 6th house and thus to enemies. Clearly a weak malefic planet placed in 6th indicate defeat and destruction of enemies. But also remember that a malefic planet in 6th also destroys the positive qualities of the native such as courage, will and valor. This implies that the native himself would be a cheater who will resort to degenerated means to defeat his numerous small and weak enemies who too is of the same nature. This is why Garga states that the native will have degenerated enemies (this is a certain result. Here the win or loss could be with anyone - the native or the enemy) OR the native may destroy the enemy (this is an uncertain result). Sage garga is joining the word 'OR' here to indicate an uncertain result because - the only thing certain in this case is that the enemy will suffer a heavy loss and destruction; being weak and fearful himself, the native may or maynot win - even though major chance is that he will win. Understanding this scenario clearly helps us to understand that - Saturn is 6th DOES NOT make the native philosophical and good hearted, but instead makes him a cheater, covered and a degenerated one - even though this nature won't be visible on surface. Due to the boasting nature of the native about his own courage, it would be very difficult in such cases to identify that he is a covered. He may even murder people due to his fear and cowardice by resorting to degenerated ways and cheating, but let that not hinder our view and force us to see his lack of courage and lack of philosophical attitude. Even philosophy will only be a mask to him to cover his cowardice if used. The general perspective generated would be that - "Saturn in 6th makes that native courageous, and helps him to destroy and win over his enemies" - whether Saturn in his own house or in debilitation. That is why Chamatkara chintamani states -Arerbhoopateschorayo bheetaya kimYadeenasya putro bhavedasya satrauna yuddhe bhavet sammukhe tasya yodhaMahishyadikam matulanam vinasaH[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will not be afraid of thieves, government or enemies. (But be certain that he will have to face the attack of thieves, government and enemies). There won't a warrior courageous enough to fight directly against him (He would be very courageous and will win over enemies in any direct fights). He may have many pet animals such as cow etc. younger co-borns of mother (as indicated by 3rd house from 4th indicating mother; a malefic in 3rd from 4th, cause destruction and damage to mother's younger co-borns) will suffer destruction (as indicated by a malefic in 6th house)] It is well evident that even though vague about the true result indicated by Saturn in 6th, the above quote helps us to understand how to apply "Bhavat bhava approach" (3rd from 4th indicating mother's younger coborn etc) in result derivation. Even though much useful, compared to medieval texts like Chamatkara chintamani, the ancient texts like Garga hora and Brigu sutra provides us with better and clear understanding, and therefore should be depended upon. Let us see what Brigu sutra has to say on this - Alpa jnatiH satru khshayaH dhanadhanya samridha, kujayute desantara sanchari alpa rajayogaH Bhangayogat kvachit saukhyam kvachit yoga bhangaH randhrese mande arishtam vatarogi soola vrana dehi (Bhrigu sutra)[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will have less well wishers (relative and friends) and more enemies. But his enemies will suffer loss and defeat. (Due to the presence of cattle and other quadrapads in his house and also because Saturn in 6th cause destruction to grain eating pests, if he indulges in agriculture) He will have good amount of wealth and grains (wealth accumulated by destroying all pests - small enemies). If Mars is present along with Saturn in 6th, then the native will go to other countries and places and will roam around (especially indicating flight journeys abroad since sky is voyage indicated by Saturn and strange foreign lands by 6th house). (But don't think that the native would be devoid of difficulties anywhere is he go - that is not in his horoscope, he has to fight and suffer everywhere, and so) He will have some minor raja yoga due to all this. This Saturn-Mars combination in 6th will give good results at times and bad result in other times - Raja yoga at times and yoga bhanga at times. (Win and good life at times and defeat and bad life at times). If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering) and the native will suffer due to diseases such as vataroga(wind diseases) and soola roga(body pain and aches). ] Thus all the sages, even though tries to put the picture in a positive perspective, by saying that the native will defeat his enemies and no one will dare to stand against him etc, agree that Saturn in 6th DO NOT in general indicate positive results and makes life a fight throughout with numerous enemies - – if not supported by other planets and dasa periods.Love and regards,Sreenadh , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I agree 100% that while learning and analyzing one should not be influenced by familiarity. But I want to confirm if you have the correct calculation because I am running Venus Dasha and not Saturn Dasha.And unfortunately for me I am not clever enough to be a criminal. As a matter of fact I am very frequently "taken for a ride" by others to exploit my kindness and take advantage of it. I am very averse to confrontation and hence allow some times such unkind people to take advantage of me.> > Just to let you know that philosophically I am non-judgemental and take a morally neutral stance when it comes to Jyotish. After all, one has to wash all the inherent Vasanas and cleanse it in the ocean of samsara, one time or the other.> > -Manoj> > > > > ________________________________> Sreenadh sreesog > Tuesday, June 2, 2009 3:12:08 AM> Re:Deb.Saturn_3HL+4HL_Scorpio Lagna> > > > > > Dear Neelam ji, > Thanks for the informative mail. I liked the presentation but do not agree to some of the points presented. For example -> //> What would happen when this Saturn is debilitated? ..........So instead of taking sanyaasa by going to an ashram straight, as perhaps an exalted saturn will, this would not take > an apparently nice route.// > Debilitated Saturn in 6th will make the native spiritual?!! ! I thought that will make him criminal! (provided the dasa of Saturn comes). Of course I am making this statement while remembering that respected Manoj Chandran ji is running Saturn dasa (Saturn debilitated in 6th for Scorpio lagna). My opinion is that - having an idea for whom we predict should not distort our derivations. > What are the results to be predicted for Saturn in 6th in Aries in debilitation for Scorpio lagna? What the classics say? Dear Neelam ji, can you collect the reference and quote? > Note: I have already expressed my opinion on 'debilitated planet aspecting exaltation argument - whether in bhava or bahavat bhava'; so don't want to take it up again.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Sreenadh Ji, "If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering)". However is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)? Regards, -Manoj Sreenadh <sreesog Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:43:42 AM Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear All, Let us go by the classics on this. What are the results to be attributed to Saturn in 6th? As per Garga Hora -Shashte neechagataH souro janayet neecha vairinamAnyadha vairinam hanti nirvairaH swagriham gataH[if Saturn is in 6th house in debilitation, then that native will have a de-generated (cruel, bad) enemy; OR the enemy will have a bad defeat. If Saturn is placed in 6th in his own house, then the native (will have enemies, but) will destroy the enemies] In the above quote 2 results for Saturn in 6th is given. The second result attributed is that, if Saturn is in 6th in own house then native will destroy enemies. This implicitly means that Saturn in 6th in own house, causes the enemies to flourish (i.e. the native will have many enemies) but also causes the courage, will, valor and cruelty of the native also to flourish thus providing victory to native in all such fights against enemies. This is logical and understandable. Here flourishing of the enemies is told specially because the 6th lord (i.e. Saturn) is in his own house and is strong.Now what if Saturn, the malefic planet in 6th is week and debilitated? Note that nothing is known about the condition of 6th lord here. The only major thing we know is that there is a malefic but week, and thus resorting to crooked deeds planet Saturn is in 6th house. This should definitely cause destruction to the things indicated by 6th house and thus to enemies. Clearly a weak malefic planet placed in 6th indicate defeat and destruction of enemies. But also remember that a malefic planet in 6th also destroys the positive qualities of the native such as courage, will and valor. This implies that the native himself would be a cheater who will resort to degenerated means to defeat his numerous small and weak enemies who too is of the same nature. This is why Garga states that the native will have degenerated enemies (this is a certain result. Here the win or loss could be with anyone - the native or the enemy) OR the native may destroy the enemy (this is an uncertain result). Sage garga is joining the word 'OR' here to indicate an uncertain result because - the only thing certain in this case is that the enemy will suffer a heavy loss and destruction; being weak and fearful himself, the native may or maynot win - even though major chance is that he will win. Understanding this scenario clearly helps us to understand that - Saturn is 6th DOES NOT make the native philosophical and good hearted, but instead makes him a cheater, covered and a degenerated one - even though this nature won't be visible on surface. Due to the boasting nature of the native about his own courage, it would be very difficult in such cases to identify that he is a covered. He may even murder people due to his fear and cowardice by resorting to degenerated ways and cheating, but let that not hinder our view and force us to see his lack of courage and lack of philosophical attitude. Even philosophy will only be a mask to him to cover his cowardice if used. The general perspective generated would be that - "Saturn in 6th makes that native courageous, and helps him to destroy and win over his enemies" - whether Saturn in his own house or in debilitation. That is why Chamatkara chintamani states -Arerbhoopateschoray o bheetaya kimYadeenasya putro bhavedasya satrauna yuddhe bhavet sammukhe tasya yodhaMahishyadikam matulanam vinasaH[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will not be afraid of thieves, government or enemies. (But be certain that he will have to face the attack of thieves, government and enemies). There won't a warrior courageous enough to fight directly against him (He would be very courageous and will win over enemies in any direct fights). He may have many pet animals such as cow etc. younger co-borns of mother (as indicated by 3rd house from 4th indicating mother; a malefic in 3rd from 4th, cause destruction and damage to mother's younger co-borns) will suffer destruction (as indicated by a malefic in 6th house)] It is well evident that even though vague about the true result indicated by Saturn in 6th, the above quote helps us to understand how to apply "Bhavat bhava approach" (3rd from 4th indicating mother's younger coborn etc) in result derivation. Even though much useful, compared to medieval texts like Chamatkara chintamani, the ancient texts like Garga hora and Brigu sutra provides us with better and clear understanding, and therefore should be depended upon. Let us see what Brigu sutra has to say on this - Alpa jnatiH satru khshayaH dhanadhanya samridha, kujayute desantara sanchari alpa rajayogaH Bhangayogat kvachit saukhyam kvachit yoga bhangaH randhrese mande arishtam vatarogi soola vrana dehi (Bhrigu sutra)[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will have less well wishers (relative and friends) and more enemies. But his enemies will suffer loss and defeat. (Due to the presence of cattle and other quadrapads in his house and also because Saturn in 6th cause destruction to grain eating pests, if he indulges in agriculture) He will have good amount of wealth and grains (wealth accumulated by destroying all pests - small enemies). If Mars is present along with Saturn in 6th, then the native will go to other countries and places and will roam around (especially indicating flight journeys abroad since sky is voyage indicated by Saturn and strange foreign lands by 6th house). (But don't think that the native would be devoid of difficulties anywhere is he go - that is not in his horoscope, he has to fight and suffer everywhere, and so) He will have some minor raja yoga due to all this. This Saturn-Mars combination in 6th will give good results at times and bad result in other times - Raja yoga at times and yoga bhanga at times. (Win and good life at times and defeat and bad life at times). If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering) and the native will suffer due to diseases such as vataroga(wind diseases) and soola roga(body pain and aches). ] Thus all the sages, even though tries to put the picture in a positive perspective, by saying that the native will defeat his enemies and no one will dare to stand against him etc, agree that Saturn in 6th DO NOT in general indicate positive results and makes life a fight throughout with numerous enemies - – if not supported by other planets and dasa periods.Love and regards,Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I agree 100% that while learning and analyzing one should not be influenced by familiarity. But I want to confirm if you have the correct calculation because I am running Venus Dasha and not Saturn Dasha.And unfortunately for me I am not clever enough to be a criminal. As a matter of fact I am very frequently "taken for a ride" by others to exploit my kindness and take advantage of it. I am very averse to confrontation and hence allow some times such unkind people to take advantage of me.> > Just to let you know that philosophically I am non-judgemental and take a morally neutral stance when it comes to Jyotish. After all, one has to wash all the inherent Vasanas and cleanse it in the ocean of samsara, one time or the other.> > -Manoj> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Sreenadh sreesog ancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, June 2, 2009 3:12:08 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Deb.Saturn_ 3HL+4HL_Scorpio Lagna> > > > > > Dear Neelam ji, > Thanks for the informative mail. I liked the presentation but do not agree to some of the points presented. For example -> //> What would happen when this Saturn is debilitated? ..........So instead of taking sanyaasa by going to an ashram straight, as perhaps an exalted saturn will, this would not take > an apparently nice route.// > Debilitated Saturn in 6th will make the native spiritual?!! ! I thought that will make him criminal! (provided the dasa of Saturn comes). Of course I am making this statement while remembering that respected Manoj Chandran ji is running Saturn dasa (Saturn debilitated in 6th for Scorpio lagna). My opinion is that - having an idea for whom we predict should not distort our derivations. > What are the results to be predicted for Saturn in 6th in Aries in debilitation for Scorpio lagna? What the classics say? Dear Neelam ji, can you collect the reference and quote? > Note: I have already expressed my opinion on 'debilitated planet aspecting exaltation argument - whether in bhava or bahavat bhava'; so don't want to take it up again.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Sreenadh Ji, I think I answered the question myself. 8hL in 6H will increase enemies not decrease it. So if Saturn is also the 8th lord it is indeed a very bad combination for ALL 6th house matters (including trouble from enemies). Here is the first verse, chapter Fifteen of Manterswara's Phaladipika. Chapter heading: Method for Studying the Effects of the Bhava: All bhavas will give rise to exclusively good results if occupied or aspected by benifics or their own lords, or by planets owning benefic houses, provided such houses are without the aspect of asssociation of malefics. This will be so, even if malefics own the houses concerned. This good effect of the houses will be certain if the planets involved are strong, that is, not in their debilitation constellation, not combust and not in an enemy's constellation. Ofcourse the reverse of this corollary would produce the reverse results. Regards, -Manoj Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 4:10:12 PMRe: Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear Sreenadh Ji, "If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering)". However is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)? Regards, -Manoj Sreenadh <sreesog >ancient_indian_ astrologySunday, July 12, 2009 7:43:42 AM[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear All, Let us go by the classics on this. What are the results to be attributed to Saturn in 6th? As per Garga Hora -Shashte neechagataH souro janayet neecha vairinamAnyadha vairinam hanti nirvairaH swagriham gataH[if Saturn is in 6th house in debilitation, then that native will have a de-generated (cruel, bad) enemy; OR the enemy will have a bad defeat. If Saturn is placed in 6th in his own house, then the native (will have enemies, but) will destroy the enemies] In the above quote 2 results for Saturn in 6th is given. The second result attributed is that, if Saturn is in 6th in own house then native will destroy enemies. This implicitly means that Saturn in 6th in own house, causes the enemies to flourish (i.e. the native will have many enemies) but also causes the courage, will, valor and cruelty of the native also to flourish thus providing victory to native in all such fights against enemies. This is logical and understandable. Here flourishing of the enemies is told specially because the 6th lord (i.e. Saturn) is in his own house and is strong.Now what if Saturn, the malefic planet in 6th is week and debilitated? Note that nothing is known about the condition of 6th lord here. The only major thing we know is that there is a malefic but week, and thus resorting to crooked deeds planet Saturn is in 6th house. This should definitely cause destruction to the things indicated by 6th house and thus to enemies. Clearly a weak malefic planet placed in 6th indicate defeat and destruction of enemies. But also remember that a malefic planet in 6th also destroys the positive qualities of the native such as courage, will and valor. This implies that the native himself would be a cheater who will resort to degenerated means to defeat his numerous small and weak enemies who too is of the same nature. This is why Garga states that the native will have degenerated enemies (this is a certain result. Here the win or loss could be with anyone - the native or the enemy) OR the native may destroy the enemy (this is an uncertain result). Sage garga is joining the word 'OR' here to indicate an uncertain result because - the only thing certain in this case is that the enemy will suffer a heavy loss and destruction; being weak and fearful himself, the native may or maynot win - even though major chance is that he will win. Understanding this scenario clearly helps us to understand that - Saturn is 6th DOES NOT make the native philosophical and good hearted, but instead makes him a cheater, covered and a degenerated one - even though this nature won't be visible on surface. Due to the boasting nature of the native about his own courage, it would be very difficult in such cases to identify that he is a covered. He may even murder people due to his fear and cowardice by resorting to degenerated ways and cheating, but let that not hinder our view and force us to see his lack of courage and lack of philosophical attitude. Even philosophy will only be a mask to him to cover his cowardice if used. The general perspective generated would be that - "Saturn in 6th makes that native courageous, and helps him to destroy and win over his enemies" - whether Saturn in his own house or in debilitation. That is why Chamatkara chintamani states -Arerbhoopateschoray o bheetaya kimYadeenasya putro bhavedasya satrauna yuddhe bhavet sammukhe tasya yodhaMahishyadikam matulanam vinasaH[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will not be afraid of thieves, government or enemies. (But be certain that he will have to face the attack of thieves, government and enemies). There won't a warrior courageous enough to fight directly against him (He would be very courageous and will win over enemies in any direct fights). He may have many pet animals such as cow etc. younger co-borns of mother (as indicated by 3rd house from 4th indicating mother; a malefic in 3rd from 4th, cause destruction and damage to mother's younger co-borns) will suffer destruction (as indicated by a malefic in 6th house)] It is well evident that even though vague about the true result indicated by Saturn in 6th, the above quote helps us to understand how to apply "Bhavat bhava approach" (3rd from 4th indicating mother's younger coborn etc) in result derivation. Even though much useful, compared to medieval texts like Chamatkara chintamani, the ancient texts like Garga hora and Brigu sutra provides us with better and clear understanding, and therefore should be depended upon. Let us see what Brigu sutra has to say on this - Alpa jnatiH satru khshayaH dhanadhanya samridha, kujayute desantara sanchari alpa rajayogaH Bhangayogat kvachit saukhyam kvachit yoga bhangaH randhrese mande arishtam vatarogi soola vrana dehi (Bhrigu sutra)[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will have less well wishers (relative and friends) and more enemies. But his enemies will suffer loss and defeat. (Due to the presence of cattle and other quadrapads in his house and also because Saturn in 6th cause destruction to grain eating pests, if he indulges in agriculture) He will have good amount of wealth and grains (wealth accumulated by destroying all pests - small enemies). If Mars is present along with Saturn in 6th, then the native will go to other countries and places and will roam around (especially indicating flight journeys abroad since sky is voyage indicated by Saturn and strange foreign lands by 6th house). (But don't think that the native would be devoid of difficulties anywhere is he go - that is not in his horoscope, he has to fight and suffer everywhere, and so) He will have some minor raja yoga due to all this. This Saturn-Mars combination in 6th will give good results at times and bad result in other times - Raja yoga at times and yoga bhanga at times. (Win and good life at times and defeat and bad life at times). If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering) and the native will suffer due to diseases such as vataroga(wind diseases) and soola roga(body pain and aches). ] Thus all the sages, even though tries to put the picture in a positive perspective, by saying that the native will defeat his enemies and no one will dare to stand against him etc, agree that Saturn in 6th DO NOT in general indicate positive results and makes life a fight throughout with numerous enemies - – if not supported by other planets and dasa periods.Love and regards,Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I agree 100% that while learning and analyzing one should not be influenced by familiarity. But I want to confirm if you have the correct calculation because I am running Venus Dasha and not Saturn Dasha.And unfortunately for me I am not clever enough to be a criminal. As a matter of fact I am very frequently "taken for a ride" by others to exploit my kindness and take advantage of it. I am very averse to confrontation and hence allow some times such unkind people to take advantage of me.> > Just to let you know that philosophically I am non-judgemental and take a morally neutral stance when it comes to Jyotish. After all, one has to wash all the inherent Vasanas and cleanse it in the ocean of samsara, one time or the other.> > -Manoj> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Sreenadh sreesog ancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, June 2, 2009 3:12:08 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Deb.Saturn_ 3HL+4HL_Scorpio Lagna> > > > > > Dear Neelam ji, > Thanks for the informative mail. I liked the presentation but do not agree to some of the points presented. For example -> //> What would happen when this Saturn is debilitated? ..........So instead of taking sanyaasa by going to an ashram straight, as perhaps an exalted saturn will, this would not take > an apparently nice route.// > Debilitated Saturn in 6th will make the native spiritual?!! ! I thought that will make him criminal! (provided the dasa of Saturn comes). Of course I am making this statement while remembering that respected Manoj Chandran ji is running Saturn dasa (Saturn debilitated in 6th for Scorpio lagna). My opinion is that - having an idea for whom we predict should not distort our derivations. > What are the results to be predicted for Saturn in 6th in Aries in debilitation for Scorpio lagna? What the classics say? Dear Neelam ji, can you collect the reference and quote? > Note: I have already expressed my opinion on 'debilitated planet aspecting exaltation argument - whether in bhava or bahavat bhava'; so don't want to take it up again.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Sreenadh Ji, Sorry previous message escaped before I intended to .... I was going to say Mantreswara clearly says "All Bhavas give rise to exclusively good results". That is a big clue pointing to the subtle (probably not so subtle to the more experienced jyotishis) point that even the dussthanas WILL produce good results in those conditions (and hence bad results during the opposite conditions). Hence since 6th house deals with "trouble from enemies" if the 8L is posited there it will produce more "trouble from enemies". Although this looks like a very basic thing to analyze, I got confused due to the "vipreet raj yog" concept hanging around in the back of my head. Regards, -Manoj Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:57:20 PMRe: Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear Sreenadh Ji, I think I answered the question myself. 8hL in 6H will increase enemies not decrease it. So if Saturn is also the 8th lord it is indeed a very bad combination for ALL 6th house matters (including trouble from enemies). Here is the first verse, chapter Fifteen of Manterswara' s Phaladipika. Chapter heading: Method for Studying the Effects of the Bhava: All bhavas will give rise to exclusively good results if occupied or aspected by benifics or their own lords, or by planets owning benefic houses, provided such houses are without the aspect of asssociation of malefics.. This will be so, even if malefics own the houses concerned. This good effect of the houses will be certain if the planets involved are strong, that is, not in their debilitation constellation, not combust and not in an enemy's constellation. Ofcourse the reverse of this corollary would produce the reverse results. Regards, -Manoj Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ >ancient_indian_ astrologySunday, July 12, 2009 4:10:12 PMRe: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear Sreenadh Ji, "If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering)". However is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)? Regards, -Manoj Sreenadh <sreesog >ancient_indian_ astrologySunday, July 12, 2009 7:43:42 AM[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear All, Let us go by the classics on this. What are the results to be attributed to Saturn in 6th? As per Garga Hora -Shashte neechagataH souro janayet neecha vairinamAnyadha vairinam hanti nirvairaH swagriham gataH[if Saturn is in 6th house in debilitation, then that native will have a de-generated (cruel, bad) enemy; OR the enemy will have a bad defeat. If Saturn is placed in 6th in his own house, then the native (will have enemies, but) will destroy the enemies] In the above quote 2 results for Saturn in 6th is given. The second result attributed is that, if Saturn is in 6th in own house then native will destroy enemies. This implicitly means that Saturn in 6th in own house, causes the enemies to flourish (i.e. the native will have many enemies) but also causes the courage, will, valor and cruelty of the native also to flourish thus providing victory to native in all such fights against enemies. This is logical and understandable. Here flourishing of the enemies is told specially because the 6th lord (i.e. Saturn) is in his own house and is strong.Now what if Saturn, the malefic planet in 6th is week and debilitated? Note that nothing is known about the condition of 6th lord here. The only major thing we know is that there is a malefic but week, and thus resorting to crooked deeds planet Saturn is in 6th house. This should definitely cause destruction to the things indicated by 6th house and thus to enemies. Clearly a weak malefic planet placed in 6th indicate defeat and destruction of enemies. But also remember that a malefic planet in 6th also destroys the positive qualities of the native such as courage, will and valor. This implies that the native himself would be a cheater who will resort to degenerated means to defeat his numerous small and weak enemies who too is of the same nature. This is why Garga states that the native will have degenerated enemies (this is a certain result. Here the win or loss could be with anyone - the native or the enemy) OR the native may destroy the enemy (this is an uncertain result). Sage garga is joining the word 'OR' here to indicate an uncertain result because - the only thing certain in this case is that the enemy will suffer a heavy loss and destruction; being weak and fearful himself, the native may or maynot win - even though major chance is that he will win. Understanding this scenario clearly helps us to understand that - Saturn is 6th DOES NOT make the native philosophical and good hearted, but instead makes him a cheater, covered and a degenerated one - even though this nature won't be visible on surface. Due to the boasting nature of the native about his own courage, it would be very difficult in such cases to identify that he is a covered. He may even murder people due to his fear and cowardice by resorting to degenerated ways and cheating, but let that not hinder our view and force us to see his lack of courage and lack of philosophical attitude. Even philosophy will only be a mask to him to cover his cowardice if used. The general perspective generated would be that - "Saturn in 6th makes that native courageous, and helps him to destroy and win over his enemies" - whether Saturn in his own house or in debilitation. That is why Chamatkara chintamani states -Arerbhoopateschoray o bheetaya kimYadeenasya putro bhavedasya satrauna yuddhe bhavet sammukhe tasya yodhaMahishyadikam matulanam vinasaH[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will not be afraid of thieves, government or enemies. (But be certain that he will have to face the attack of thieves, government and enemies). There won't a warrior courageous enough to fight directly against him (He would be very courageous and will win over enemies in any direct fights). He may have many pet animals such as cow etc. younger co-borns of mother (as indicated by 3rd house from 4th indicating mother; a malefic in 3rd from 4th, cause destruction and damage to mother's younger co-borns) will suffer destruction (as indicated by a malefic in 6th house)] It is well evident that even though vague about the true result indicated by Saturn in 6th, the above quote helps us to understand how to apply "Bhavat bhava approach" (3rd from 4th indicating mother's younger coborn etc) in result derivation. Even though much useful, compared to medieval texts like Chamatkara chintamani, the ancient texts like Garga hora and Brigu sutra provides us with better and clear understanding, and therefore should be depended upon. Let us see what Brigu sutra has to say on this - Alpa jnatiH satru khshayaH dhanadhanya samridha, kujayute desantara sanchari alpa rajayogaH Bhangayogat kvachit saukhyam kvachit yoga bhangaH randhrese mande arishtam vatarogi soola vrana dehi (Bhrigu sutra)[if Saturn is in 6th, the native will have less well wishers (relative and friends) and more enemies. But his enemies will suffer loss and defeat. (Due to the presence of cattle and other quadrapads in his house and also because Saturn in 6th cause destruction to grain eating pests, if he indulges in agriculture) He will have good amount of wealth and grains (wealth accumulated by destroying all pests - small enemies). If Mars is present along with Saturn in 6th, then the native will go to other countries and places and will roam around (especially indicating flight journeys abroad since sky is voyage indicated by Saturn and strange foreign lands by 6th house). (But don't think that the native would be devoid of difficulties anywhere is he go - that is not in his horoscope, he has to fight and suffer everywhere, and so) He will have some minor raja yoga due to all this. This Saturn-Mars combination in 6th will give good results at times and bad result in other times - Raja yoga at times and yoga bhanga at times. (Win and good life at times and defeat and bad life at times). If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering) and the native will suffer due to diseases such as vataroga(wind diseases) and soola roga(body pain and aches). ] Thus all the sages, even though tries to put the picture in a positive perspective, by saying that the native will defeat his enemies and no one will dare to stand against him etc, agree that Saturn in 6th DO NOT in general indicate positive results and makes life a fight throughout with numerous enemies - – if not supported by other planets and dasa periods.Love and regards,Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I agree 100% that while learning and analyzing one should not be influenced by familiarity. But I want to confirm if you have the correct calculation because I am running Venus Dasha and not Saturn Dasha.And unfortunately for me I am not clever enough to be a criminal. As a matter of fact I am very frequently "taken for a ride" by others to exploit my kindness and take advantage of it. I am very averse to confrontation and hence allow some times such unkind people to take advantage of me.> > Just to let you know that philosophically I am non-judgemental and take a morally neutral stance when it comes to Jyotish. After all, one has to wash all the inherent Vasanas and cleanse it in the ocean of samsara, one time or the other.> > -Manoj> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Sreenadh sreesog ancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, June 2, 2009 3:12:08 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Deb.Saturn_ 3HL+4HL_Scorpio Lagna> > > > > > Dear Neelam ji, > Thanks for the informative mail. I liked the presentation but do not agree to some of the points presented. For example -> //> What would happen when this Saturn is debilitated? ..........So instead of taking sanyaasa by going to an ashram straight, as perhaps an exalted saturn will, this would not take > an apparently nice route.// > Debilitated Saturn in 6th will make the native spiritual?!! ! I thought that will make him criminal! (provided the dasa of Saturn comes). Of course I am making this statement while remembering that respected Manoj Chandran ji is running Saturn dasa (Saturn debilitated in 6th for Scorpio lagna). My opinion is that - having an idea for whom we predict should not distort our derivations. > What are the results to be predicted for Saturn in 6th in Aries in debilitation for Scorpio lagna? What the classics say? Dear Neelam ji, can you collect the reference and quote? > Note: I have already expressed my opinion on 'debilitated planet aspecting exaltation argument - whether in bhava or bahavat bhava'; so don't want to take it up again.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Manoj ji, //is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)?// Yes, true. But let us not forget that when life becomes a fight and fight alone, that too is a suffering - in fights whether we win or loss; we loss for sure. If 8th lord in 6th, putting up tough fights and winning does not hold much value, since the suffering and lose caused would be much more. I request you to take some practical chart examples and evaluate the observation of the sages. Let us see what where the real results especially if the dasa of 8th lord in 6th was running. As a minor example I will mention the combination present in my chart and results observed. Please note that here antaras only occurred and not the dasa itself. I am Virgo lagna with 8th lord Mars placed in 6th, i.e. in Aquarius. I took birth in Nov 1971 in Jupiter dasa. * During 1974 -1975 Ju-Ma was running : I was 2-3 years of age, and my both legs where in plaster (due to some birth deformity of legs, which got cured only by continuous plastering of legs till I was 3 years of age, and then too continuing treatment for many more years. By gods grace it all got completely cured in my childhood itself) * During 1989-91 Sa-Ma was running: I was 17-19 years of age, and there was hectic family problems at home between my parents, and heavy troubles. A clear period of suffering, fights, enemies, bad health, wins over enemies and so on - due to various reasons. (I don't want to go into the details of all this). * During 2005-2006 Me-Ma was running: I was in love and there was some troubles related to the job, some disagreements and non-cooperation from her parents and so on. There was suffering and uncertainty. Yes, true the result was matching here as well. But certainly at the end success was also there, since she is her wife now and I have very good relationship with her parents now. [so unlike the above two examples, this was special case without loss ] So the clear pointer from this example is that - as you have clearly pointed out - //8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies, while destroying his health also// That is why I asked, what value that win has got when suffering is too much and loses cannot be compensated? Hope you see the point. Note: Take some other similar example and try to understand the quote. Love and regards,Sreenadh , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > "If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering)".> However is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)?> Regards,> -Manoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Manoj ji, Yes. For some one to be cured of diseases, first diseases should be present. For some one to defeat his enemies, first enemies should be present. If I have to destroy my strong enemies, first strong enemies should appear and cause enough trouble and suffering to me and should put up a great fight. Then only I can be brave enough and with valorous fight defeat that enemy. So what is more correct - a malefic in 6th increasing enemies or providing a win? :=) At times it is funny, when we see both sides of the coin. Love and regards,Sreenadh , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I think I answered the question myself. 8hL in 6H will increase enemies not decrease it. So if Saturn is also the 8th lord it is indeed a very bad combination for ALL 6th house matters (including trouble from enemies).> > Here is the first verse, chapter Fifteen of Manterswara's Phaladipika. > > Chapter heading: Method for Studying the Effects of the Bhava:> All bhavas will give rise to exclusively good results if occupied or aspected by benifics or their own lords, or by planets owning benefic houses, provided such houses are without the aspect of asssociation of malefics. This will be so, even if malefics own the houses concerned.. This good effect of the houses will be certain if the planets involved are strong, that is, not in their debilitation constellation, not combust and not in an enemy's constellation.> Ofcourse the reverse of this corollary would produce the reverse results.> Regards,> -Manoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Sreenadh Ji, What I love about this group is even one article can make one go and read several books. Your one reply, along with another one that Neelam Ji made in an old article, coupled with Kursija Ji's comments has made me look at dussthana houses in a completely different way. Let me go back, re-read and re-digest my information and I will probably have more questions/thoughts/comments to share. Thanks for this wonderful sharing community. Unfortunately I have a different day job and cannot spend 24 hours on astrology and this site. Regards, -Manoj Sreenadh <sreesog Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:32:04 AM Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Dear Manoj ji, Yes. For some one to be cured of diseases, first diseases should be present. For some one to defeat his enemies, first enemies should be present. If I have to destroy my strong enemies, first strong enemies should appear and cause enough trouble and suffering to me and should put up a great fight. Then only I can be brave enough and with valorous fight defeat that enemy. So what is more correct - a malefic in 6th increasing enemies or providing a win? :=) At times it is funny, when we see both sides of the coin. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ....> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > I think I answered the question myself. 8hL in 6H will increase enemies not decrease it. So if Saturn is also the 8th lord it is indeed a very bad combination for ALL 6th house matters (including trouble from enemies).> > Here is the first verse, chapter Fifteen of Manterswara' s Phaladipika. > > Chapter heading: Method for Studying the Effects of the Bhava:> All bhavas will give rise to exclusively good results if occupied or aspected by benifics or their own lords, or by planets owning benefic houses, provided such houses are without the aspect of asssociation of malefics. This will be so, even if malefics own the houses concerned.. This good effect of the houses will be certain if the planets involved are strong, that is, not in their debilitation constellation, not combust and not in an enemy's constellation.> Ofcourse the reverse of this corollary would produce the reverse results.> Regards,> -Manoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Dear Manoj ji, Ha..Ha... That was a beautiful and affectionate mail! Love and hugs,Sreenadh , Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > What I love about this group is even one article can make one go and read several books. Your one reply, along with another one that Neelam Ji made in an old article, coupled with Kursija Ji's comments has made me look at dussthana houses in a completely different way. Let me go back, re-read and re-digest my information and I will probably have more questions/thoughts/comments to share.> > Thanks for this wonderful sharing community. Unfortunately I have a different day job and cannot spend 24 hours on astrology and this site. > > Regards,> > -Manoj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji, Having regard to your mail I checked my own horoscope which has 8th lord in 6th. Yes, I realised, I too had a very bad time during the antardasha of the 8th lord who also happens to be my lagna lord too. I went through tremendous stress and pain during the 2 antaras I have gone through so far. Next is from june 2011 to august 2012. I am already dreading this. Regards, Anita--- On Mon, 13/7/09, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote: Sreenadh <sreesog Re:Deb.Saturn in 6H for Scorpio Lagna Date: Monday, 13 July, 2009, 4:18 PM Dear Manoj ji, //is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)?// Yes, true. But let us not forget that when life becomes a fight and fight alone, that too is a suffering - in fights whether we win or loss; we loss for sure. If 8th lord in 6th, putting up tough fights and winning does not hold much value, since the suffering and lose caused would be much more. I request you to take some practical chart examples and evaluate the observation of the sages. Let us see what where the real results especially if the dasa of 8th lord in 6th was running. As a minor example I will mention the combination present in my chart and results observed. Please note that here antaras only occurred and not the dasa itself. I am Virgo lagna with 8th lord Mars placed in 6th, i.e. in Aquarius. I took birth in Nov 1971 in Jupiter dasa. * During 1974 -1975 Ju-Ma was running : I was 2-3 years of age, and my both legs where in plaster (due to some birth deformity of legs, which got cured only by continuous plastering of legs till I was 3 years of age, and then too continuing treatment for many more years. By gods grace it all got completely cured in my childhood itself) * During 1989-91 Sa-Ma was running: I was 17-19 years of age, and there was hectic family problems at home between my parents, and heavy troubles. A clear period of suffering, fights, enemies, bad health, wins over enemies and so on - due to various reasons. (I don't want to go into the details of all this). * During 2005-2006 Me-Ma was running: I was in love and there was some troubles related to the job, some disagreements and non-cooperation from her parents and so on. There was suffering and uncertainty. Yes, true the result was matching here as well. But certainly at the end success was also there, since she is her wife now and I have very good relationship with her parents now. [so unlike the above two examples, this was special case without loss ] So the clear pointer from this example is that - as you have clearly pointed out - //8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies, while destroying his health also// That is why I asked, what value that win has got when suffering is too much and loses cannot be compensated? Hope you see the point. Note: Take some other similar example and try to understand the quote. Love and regards,Sreenadhancient_indian_ astrology, Manoj Chandran <chandran_manoj@ ...> wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh Ji,> > "If the Saturn placed in 6th is the 8th lord as well, then (it is a bad combination indicating disease and suffering)".> However is it not true that the 8th Lord in the 6th will bring the destructive capacity of the 8th bhava to the 6th and hence destroy his enemies (while destroying his health also)?> Regards,> -Manoj Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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