The Mahabharath ,Book 6 Bhisma Pa rva -Jamvu-khanda nirmana parva -sect -3

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Dear Chakraborty ji and Sunil ji, First, let me appreciate you for starting such a discussion. The quote is very informative and gives us much info about the astrological understanding of Mahabharata period; and is totally mis-understood and interpreted it seems. Let me state what I could grasp from these quotes -Vishvag vatascha vayvugra rajo napyupa santyatiAbhikshnam kampyate bhoomir arka rahurupaiti cha[Fearsome storm was happening all around; the dust was not settling; the earth was shivering because of earth-quake; Rahu was nearing Sun (solar eclipse?)] Swethe grahastatha chitram samatikramya tishtatiAbhavam hi veseshena kurunam tatra pasyati[swetha ketu was in Chitra Nakshatra; and indicate the destruction and loss to Kurus] The word Sweta Ketu here refers to the Upagraha Dhumaketu also known by the name Dhooma sputa popular in astrology. This is one among the 5 upagrahas viz. Dhooma, Vyatipata, Parivesha (Paridhi), Indra Dhanus, Upa ketu. These upgrahas are mentioned in astrological classics like BPHS, Prasna marga, Phaladeepika etc and is a very ancient concept. Dhooma ketur maha khoraH pushyam chakramya tishtati Senayorasivam khoram karishyanti mahagrahaH[The very malefic Dhoomaketu is placed in Pushya Nakshatra. This indicate great destruction to army of both sides] I believe that the above quote is referring to earlier mentioned upagraha Dhooma sputa (Dhooma ketu) itself and not to some graha placed in Pushya star. The word Pushya could be a typo and it could be "Taksha" (meaning Chitra Nakshatra) referring to Dhooma Sputa placed in Chitra Nakshatra itself.Makhaswa Angarako vakraH sravane cha brihaspatiHBhagam nakshatramakramya suryaputrena peedyate[Retrograde Mars is placed in Makha Nakshatra (in Leo) and Jupiter in Sravana Nakshatra (in Capricorn). The Bhaga Nakshara (Uttara Phalguni) is afflicted by Saturn placed in it (in Virgo)] Here Jupiter is in debilitation. It is well evident that the concept of - debilitation, retrograde, malefic planet afflicting Nakshatras and houses - were all well popular during that time. SukraH proshtapade purve samaruhya virochateUttare tu parikramya sahitaH samudeekshite[Venus is placed in Pura Bhadrapada Nakshatra (in the same sign) along with Paridhi (another upagraha) which is placed in Uttara Bhadrapada Nakshatra; They both aspect Saturn (placed in Virgo)] The above quote clearly indicate that both Venus and Paridhi are placed in the same sign Meena (Pisces) and Venus is placed in the last quarter of Purva Bhadrapada Nakshatra which Paridhi is placed in Uttara Bhadrapada Nakshatra. It is also well evident that the concept of 7th aspect of planet was well-in-use during Mahabharata period, and also the concept of Signs. Sweta grahaH prajvalitaH sadhooma iva pavakaHIndram tejaswi nakshatram jyeshtamakramya tishtati[The fiery Sweta graha (Ketu; agneya graha) is placed in Jyeshta Nakshatra the deity of which is Indra] It is clear that Ketu is placed in Scorpio in Jyeshta Nakshatra. The ruling deity of Jyeshta Nakshatra is Indra - this is a concept well-known from Vedic period onwards. If Ketu is in Jyeshta Nakshatra, Rahu should be present in 180 degree opposite either in Rohini or Mrigasira. (Later it would be clear that Rahu is placed in Rohini Nakshatra)Dhruvam prajvalito khoram apasavayam pravartateRohini peedyatyevamubhau cha Sasi-bhaskarauChitra-svatyantare chaiva vishtitaH parushagrahaH[The (other) malefic planet that moves in anti-clockwise direction (i.e. Rahu) is placed in Rohini Nakshatra. Both of them together (i.e. Rahu and Ketu) are afflicting both Sun and Moon (placed in Rohini Nakshatra). (As mentioned earlier) another malefic (upa)graha - i.e. Dhooma - is afflicting Chitra Nakshatra] It is well-evident that - Rahu, Moon and Sun are placed in Rohini Nakshatra and is in Taurus Sign. Possibly it is a day of eclipse (Solar eclipse), and possibly Mercury is also placed in Taurus. (The position of Mercury is not mentioned in any quote)Vakranuvakram kritva cha sravanam pavakaprabhaHBrahma rasim samavritya lohitango vyavasthitaH[The one who purifies and brightens fire (i.e. Jupiter, indicator of Ritik brahmin) is placed in Sravana Nakshatra and is in retrograde. Mars is placed in the sign of creation (Brahma Rasi = Leo sign, sign of creation)] As well evident from the above description, not only the position of all planets (except Mercury) is given in the above quotes, but also the position of some of the upagrahas such as Dhooma and Paridhi. Since the calculation of the position of 5 Upagrahas (viz. Dhooma, Vyatipata, Parivesha (Paridhi), Indra Dhanus, Upa ketu) is mentioned in BPHS we can use the same to cross verify whether the position of Dhooma, Paridhi etc given in MBh is correct or not assuming that Sun in placed in 10 degree approx (end of 3rd Nakshatra pada). This I will do in another mail.Love and regards,Sreenadh , CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:>> Dear Nair-ji,> > A doubt on my mind..hope you would clear it.> > "The white planet (Ketu) stayeth, having passed beyond> the constellation Chitra."> > Is it (White Planet = Ketu) correct translation ? > > I thought that it was probably Uranus or some other real Planet.> > regards> > Chakraborty

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharya ji, //> To my knowledge the word Ketu was used in the Veda as well as in the Mahabharata only to mean Dhumaketu.// I disagree. When Dhooma and Parithi (2 out of the 5 upagrahas considered in astrology) are mentioned and when the placement ascribed to them tallies with (is it it interesting and a reliable verification method?) the calculation ascribed to them even in BPHS, then I think - whatever be the story of other texts - Mahabharata definitely uses the word - 1) Swetha Ketu to refer to Dhooma Sputa (one of the 5 upagrahas considered in astrology) 2) Dhooma Ketu (possibly to refer to the above Dhooma sputa itself or to some comet placed in Pushya Nakshatra. Defenitly in these quotes it is NOT used to refer to Ketu, the Dragon tail) 3) prajvalitaH Sweta grahaH to refer to Ketu, the dragon tail. 4) parikramya to refer to Paridhi/Parivesha (another one among the 5 upagrahas used in astrology) 5) Dhruvam prajvalito khoram apasavayam pravartate to refer to Rahu. The quote itself mentions that Rahu was nearing Sun and also that Sun and Moon are together present in Rohini Nakshatra (and this tallies with the whole chart given as well). Thus it is well evident that the month is Rishabha (Taurus). Why should it be Tula (Libra), and if so then (just like you asked), how Rahu or Ketu can approach Sun and afflict it? No it is not possible and there erroneous should be that understanding as well. I could be wrong, but this is what I feel as of now. Nobody (no literary historians or scholars) mentions or refers to the extra astrological knowledge, possibly just because of their lack of understanding about astrology. One can identify the bridging info only when we have good enough knowledge about the subjects and both sides of the divide. As far as astrology in MBh or Ramayana are concerned the scholars dealing these texts were lacking proper astrological knowledge till date.Love and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji,> > To my knowledge the word Ketu was used in the Veda as well as in the Mahabharata only to mean Dhumaketu. Dhumaketu was in Pudshya in the time of the Mahabharata war. The term Ketu as the node of the Moon appears to have come to be used after The Mahabharata days. The Sun was in Tula. so says Nilakantha, who wrote "Tularka" and Dr. R.N.iyengar quoted this in one of his papers. So Rahu and Ketu both cannot approach the Sun in Tula. Food for thought?> > Regards,> > Sunil K. B hattacharjya

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Nairji,I read it in one of the mails of Dr. Iyengar when I was in the Hinducivilization group. He quoted from Nilakantha. He did not give details of where it occurs in Nilakantha's commentary.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Mon, 8/17/09, sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala wrote:sunil nair <astro_tellerkerala Re: The Mahabharath ,Book 6 >Bhisma Pa rva -Jamvu-khanda nirmana parva -sect -3 Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 7:19 PM

 

 

Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji Can u giv us quote of Tularka ( sun in tula ) actualy we need to see all astronomical astrological statments mentioned in MBH in proper sense ,so as to date the war as every one also Know that rishi veda Vyasa was using this statemnts in support of bad transits are also favring such a disastrous events It also support use astronomy ( positional ) in astrological paralance rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji,> > To my knowledge the word Ketu was used in the Veda as well as in the Mahabharata only to mean Dhumaketu. Dhumaketu was in Pudshya in the time of the Mahabharata war. The term Ketu as the node of the Moon appears to have come to be

used after The Mahabharata days. The Sun was in Tula. so says Nilakantha, who wrote "Tularka" and Dr. R.N.iyengar quoted this in one of his papers. So Rahu and Ketu both cannot approach the Sun in Tula. Food for thought?> > Regards,> > Sunil K. B hattacharjya> > > > --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Sreenadh sreesog wrote:> > Sreenadh sreesog [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: The Mahabharath ,Book 6 >Bhisma Pa rva -Jamvu-khanda nirmana parva -sect -3> ancient_indian_ astrology> Monday, August 17, 2009, 11:49 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Chakraborty ji and Sunil ji, > First, let me appreciate you for starting such a discussion. The quote is very informative and gives us much info about

the astrological understanding of Mahabharata period; and is totally mis-understood and interpreted it seems. Let me state what I could grasp from these quotes -> Vishvag vatascha vayvugra rajo napyupa santyati> Abhikshnam kampyate bhoomir arka rahurupaiti cha> [Fearsome storm was happening all around; the dust was not settling; the earth was shivering because of earth-quake; Rahu was nearing Sun (solar eclipse?)] > Swethe grahastatha chitram samatikramya tishtati> Abhavam hi veseshena kurunam tatra pasyati> [swetha ketu was in Chitra Nakshatra; and indicate the destruction and loss to Kurus]> The word Sweta Ketu here refers to the Upagraha Dhumaketu also known by the name Dhooma sputa popular in astrology. This is one among the 5 upagrahas viz. Dhooma, Vyatipata, Parivesha (Paridhi), Indra Dhanus, Upa ketu. These upgrahas are mentioned in astrological classics like BPHS,

Prasna marga, Phaladeepika etc and is a very ancient concept. > Dhooma ketur maha khoraH pushyam chakramya tishtati > Senayorasivam khoram karishyanti mahagrahaH> [The very malefic Dhoomaketu is placed in Pushya Nakshatra. This indicate great destruction to army of both sides]> I believe that the above quote is referring to earlier mentioned upagraha Dhooma sputa (Dhooma ketu) itself and not to some graha placed in Pushya star. The word Pushya could be a typo and it could be "Taksha" (meaning Chitra Nakshatra) referring to Dhooma Sputa placed in Chitra Nakshatra itself.> Makhaswa Angarako vakraH sravane cha brihaspatiH> Bhagam nakshatramakramya suryaputrena peedyate> [Retrograde Mars is placed in Makha Nakshatra (in Leo) and Jupiter in Sravana Nakshatra (in Capricorn). The Bhaga Nakshara (Uttara Phalguni) is afflicted by Saturn placed in it (in Virgo)]> Here Jupiter

is in debilitation. It is well evident that the concept of - debilitation, retrograde, malefic planet afflicting Nakshatras and houses - were all well popular during that time. > SukraH proshtapade purve samaruhya virochate> Uttare tu parikramya sahitaH samudeekshite> [Venus is placed in Pura Bhadrapada Nakshatra (in the same sign) along with Paridhi (another upagraha) which is placed in Uttara Bhadrapada Nakshatra; They both aspect Saturn (placed in Virgo)]> The above quote clearly indicate that both Venus and Paridhi are placed in the same sign Meena (Pisces) and Venus is placed in the last quarter of Purva Bhadrapada Nakshatra which Paridhi is placed in Uttara Bhadrapada Nakshatra. It is also well evident that the concept of 7th aspect of planet was well-in-use during Mahabharata period, and also the concept of Signs. > Sweta grahaH prajvalitaH sadhooma iva pavakaH> Indram tejaswi

nakshatram jyeshtamakramya tishtati> [The fiery Sweta graha (Ketu; agneya graha) is placed in Jyeshta Nakshatra the deity of which is Indra]> It is clear that Ketu is placed in Scorpio in Jyeshta Nakshatra. The ruling deity of Jyeshta Nakshatra is Indra - this is a concept well-known from Vedic period onwards. If Ketu is in Jyeshta Nakshatra, Rahu should be present in 180 degree opposite either in Rohini or Mrigasira. (Later it would be clear that Rahu is placed in Rohini Nakshatra)> Dhruvam prajvalito khoram apasavayam pravartate> Rohini peedyatyevamubhau cha Sasi-bhaskarau> Chitra-svatyantare chaiva vishtitaH parushagrahaH> [The (other) malefic planet that moves in anti-clockwise direction (i.e. Rahu) is placed in Rohini Nakshatra. Both of them together (i.e. Rahu and Ketu) are afflicting both Sun and Moon (placed in Rohini Nakshatra). (As mentioned earlier) another malefic (upa)graha - i.e. Dhooma - is

afflicting Chitra Nakshatra]> It is well-evident that - Rahu, Moon and Sun are placed in Rohini Nakshatra and is in Taurus Sign. Possibly it is a day of eclipse (Solar eclipse), and possibly Mercury is also placed in Taurus. (The position of Mercury is not mentioned in any quote)> Vakranuvakram kritva cha sravanam pavakaprabhaH> Brahma rasim samavritya lohitango vyavasthitaH> [The one who purifies and brightens fire (i.e. Jupiter, indicator of Ritik brahmin) is placed in Sravana Nakshatra and is in retrograde. Mars is placed in the sign of creation (Brahma Rasi = Leo sign, sign of creation)]> As well evident from the above description, not only the position of all planets (except Mercury) is given in the above quotes, but also the position of some of the upagrahas such as Dhooma and Paridhi. > Since the calculation of the position of 5 Upagrahas (viz. Dhooma, Vyatipata, Parivesha (Paridhi),

Indra Dhanus, Upa ketu) is mentioned in BPHS we can use the same to cross verify whether the position of Dhooma, Paridhi etc given in MBh is correct or not assuming that Sun in placed in 10 degree approx (end of 3rd Nakshatra pada). > This I will do in another mail.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > ancient_indian_ astrology, CHAKRABORTYP2@ ... wrote:> >> > Dear Nair-ji,> > > > A doubt on my mind..hope you would clear it.> > > > "The white planet (Ketu) stayeth, having passed beyond> > the constellation Chitra."> > > > Is it (White Planet = Ketu) correct translation ? > > > > I thought that it was probably Uranus or some other real Planet.> > > > regards> > > > Chakraborty>

[Guest guest]

The term Rahu is also used in the Ramayana. In the chapter of Sita

Swayamvar this word has been used . But this ramayana is written by

Tulsidasji, therefore one may argue that Tulsidasji is a recent figure,

in time of Tulsidasa everyone knew about rahu, so ...........

 

regards/Bhaskar.

 

 

 

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadhji,

>

> I think Rahu and Ketu were known as Swarabhanu in the Veda. The name

" Rahu " was used in the Mahabharata.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Sreenadh sreesog wrote:

>

> Sreenadh sreesog

> Re: The Mahabharath ,Book 6

>Bhisma Pa rva -Jamvu-khanda nirmana parva -sect -3

>

> Monday, August 17, 2009, 8:19 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

Dear Sunil Bhattacharya ji,

> //> To my knowledge the word Ketu was used in the Veda as well as in

the Mahabharata only to mean Dhumaketu.//

> I disagree. When Dhooma and Parithi (2 out of the 5 upagrahas

considered in astrology) are mentioned and when the placement ascribed

to them tallies with (is it it interesting and a reliable verification

method?) the calculation ascribed to them even in BPHS, then I think -

whatever be the story of other texts - Mahabharata definitely uses the

word -

> 1) Swetha Ketu to refer to Dhooma Sputa (one of the 5 upagrahas

considered in astrology)

> 2) Dhooma Ketu (possibly to refer to the above Dhooma sputa itself

or to some comet placed in Pushya Nakshatra. Defenitly in these quotes

it is NOT used to refer to Ketu, the Dragon tail)

> 3) prajvalitaH Sweta grahaH to refer to Ketu, the dragon tail.

> 4) parikramya to refer to Paridhi/Parivesha (another one among the 5

upagrahas used in astrology)

> 5) Dhruvam prajvalito khoram apasavayam pravartate to refer to Rahu.

> The quote itself mentions that Rahu was nearing Sun and also that

Sun and Moon are together present in Rohini Nakshatra (and this tallies

with the whole chart given as well). Thus it is well evident that the

month is Rishabha (Taurus). Why should it be Tula (Libra), and if so

then (just like you asked), how Rahu or Ketu can approach Sun and

afflict it? No it is not possible and there erroneous should be that

understanding as well.

> I could be wrong, but this is what I feel as of now.

>

> Nobody (no literary historians or scholars) mentions or refers to the

extra astrological knowledge, possibly just because of their lack of

understanding about astrology. One can identify the bridging info only

when we have good enough knowledge about the subjects and both sides of

the divide. As far as astrology in MBh or Ramayana are concerned the

scholars dealing these texts were lacking proper astrological knowledge

till date.

> Love and regards,

> Sreenadh

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil

Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sreenadhji,

> >

> > To my knowledge the word Ketu was used in the Veda as well as in the

Mahabharata only to mean Dhumaketu. Dhumaketu was in Pudshya in the time

of the Mahabharata war. The term Ketu as the node of the Moon appears to

have come to be used after The Mahabharata days. The Sun was in Tula. so

says Nilakantha, who wrote " Tularka " and Dr. R.N.iyengar quoted this in

one of his papers. So Rahu and Ketu both cannot approach the Sun in

Tula. Food for thought?

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sunil K. B hattacharjya

>