God has created Man and not vice versa.

September 4, 2009

God has created man and not vice versa.

Moksha is not of the mind, but actual state of existence. Mind is a

temporary existence again. Consciousness and mind are different things.

Even a small ne born child has a mind, but can it do 2 x 2 + 4

multiplication tables ? No. But its consciousness makes it realise who

his mother is from among the 5 ladies of the house sorrounding Him. Mind

can get deranged, as in " Lunatic " . But cosnciousness will make even a

Lunatic know that exposure to fire brings about pain, and he will not go

near the fire.

If we can believe that so and so is my Father, just because Mother told

me so, then why cant we believe that God is there because our ancestors

have told us so ?

We who are doing astrology talking that God has been created by Man, is

a real funny thing to hear. Why do you believe in astrology at all then

.. Dont we have conversations of the Rishi Munis and Gods in our

astrological texts ? We believe the astrological dictums but fail to

believe Gods existence ? This is hypocrisy.

And wherefrom did the Rishi Munis derive their knowledge. Just by

closing their eyes ? The whole world sleeps for 6-10 hours every day. Do

they get the knowledge then, like the rishi Munis got just by closing

their eyes?

Did not the rishi Munis get their knoweldge from meditating and

contemplating on the higher powers which cannot be seen ? Whi is that

which cannot be seen - this higher power ? If not God then who ? Man

created Him ? Really funny statement.

Why this disbelief ? We cannot see Air, we cannot see Love, we cannot

see Pain, we cannot see joy in tangibles. But dont we feel this daily ?

Then why not feel existence of God ? It is our own limitations if one

cannot comprehend the existence of God, and not because God does not

exists. God exists in Love and compassions and Bhakti. If one has this,

then he knows God. Therefore God is to be knowing, and not to be seeing.

We are 5 watt bulbs and Gods energy may be 10000 watts. We do not

qualify for that energy to be sen through us. This bulb will burst. So

God will not enter or be visible till we raise our levels to take that

much energy within ourselves.

Man cannot create God in mind or anywhere, for man has got limited

powers. How can the limited create the limitless?

Moksha is not a rubbish " shunya " state of mind or just seeing Sama in

everybody. Moksha is not just being without Karma. Moksha is becoming

bodiless completely, free of all the astral bodies sorrounding a soul.

And one of the features to remove these bodies is being free of Karma,

which the " Vasnamaya Kosha " envelops. One cannot say with this human

body in place, that " I have attained Moksha " . One cannot even say this

with the other astral bodies in place. There are many other features

too, which have to be removed in order to qualify for " Moksha " . Bookish

language or knowledge cannot explain " Moksha " fully, unless the writer

has gone towards " Moksha " but been allowed to remain in human body for

some more time to help mankind. Only the " Siddha Purushas " can do this,

and not we ordinary folks.

There are 9 planes of existence in the astral skies. A human body on

earth, like we are, who have remained good and if we qualify for

reaching the 5th level after death, wil be free from further rebirth and

death, but still does not qualify for " Moksha " because there are further

4 planes on the astral skies to be covered before reaching the Ultimate

goal of " Satchinananda " .

Most of us are qualified to talk about Moksha , because we are like

blind men describing colours. Till we practise towards becoming

qualifying for reaching the 5th level mentioned above, and be good in

this birth, we cannot even think about Moksha. It is not like buying a

cow and getting free milk from its udders.

The main point of my mail is that if we do not believe in God, then we

must not be here. If we do not believe that God created Man , then we

must not be talking about astrology. We have to be believers first.

Sorry I may have sounded a bit harsh, but certain points cannt be

digested.

best wishes,

Bhaskar.

September 4, 2009

Dear Bhaskar,

I had written that provocative piece only to find out just how different astrologers perceive creation,or God,by giving the quite notorius view, of our famous scientist Jayant Narlikar, from TIFR...which he had aired on a TV interview and dismissed astrology as bumkum and a confidence tricksters' game...etc.,

I guess,I have succeeded to some extent...

You must surely have gone through my earlier article " The Universal Urge For Moksha or Nirvana"...which I have endorsed to many members of this group...

With kind regards,

Yogesh Lajmi.

bhaskar_jyotish <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Friday, September 4, 2009 1:10:57 PM God has created Man and not vice versa.

God has created man and not vice versa.Moksha is not of the mind, but actual state of existence. Mind is atemporary existence again. Consciousness and mind are different things.Even a small ne born child has a mind, but can it do 2 x 2 + 4multiplication tables ? No. But its consciousness makes it realise whohis mother is from among the 5 ladies of the house sorrounding Him. Mindcan get deranged, as in "Lunatic". But cosnciousness will make even aLunatic know that exposure to fire brings about pain, and he will not gonear the fire.If we can believe that so and so is my Father, just because Mother toldme so, then why cant we believe that God is there because our ancestorshave told us so ?We who are doing astrology talking that God has been created by Man, isa real funny thing to hear. Why do you believe in astrology at all then. Dont we have conversations of the Rishi Munis and Gods

in ourastrological texts ? We believe the astrological dictums but fail tobelieve Gods existence ? This is hypocrisy.And wherefrom did the Rishi Munis derive their knowledge. Just byclosing their eyes ? The whole world sleeps for 6-10 hours every day. Dothey get the knowledge then, like the rishi Munis got just by closingtheir eyes?Did not the rishi Munis get their knoweldge from meditating andcontemplating on the higher powers which cannot be seen ? Whi is thatwhich cannot be seen - this higher power ? If not God then who ? Mancreated Him ? Really funny statement.Why this disbelief ? We cannot see Air, we cannot see Love, we cannotsee Pain, we cannot see joy in tangibles. But dont we feel this daily ?Then why not feel existence of God ? It is our own limitations if onecannot comprehend the existence of God, and not because God does notexists. God exists in Love and compassions and

Bhakti. If one has this,then he knows God. Therefore God is to be knowing, and not to be seeing.We are 5 watt bulbs and Gods energy may be 10000 watts. We do notqualify for that energy to be sen through us. This bulb will burst. SoGod will not enter or be visible till we raise our levels to take thatmuch energy within ourselves.Man cannot create God in mind or anywhere, for man has got limitedpowers. How can the limited create the limitless?Moksha is not a rubbish "shunya" state of mind or just seeing Sama ineverybody. Moksha is not just being without Karma. Moksha is becomingbodiless completely, free of all the astral bodies sorrounding a soul.And one of the features to remove these bodies is being free of Karma,which the "Vasnamaya Kosha" envelops. One cannot say with this humanbody in place, that "I have attained Moksha". One cannot even say thiswith the other astral bodies in place.

There are many other featurestoo, which have to be removed in order to qualify for "Moksha". Bookishlanguage or knowledge cannot explain "Moksha" fully, unless the writerhas gone towards "Moksha" but been allowed to remain in human body forsome more time to help mankind. Only the "Siddha Purushas" can do this,and not we ordinary folks.There are 9 planes of existence in the astral skies. A human body onearth, like we are, who have remained good and if we qualify forreaching the 5th level after death, wil be free from further rebirth anddeath, but still does not qualify for "Moksha" because there are further4 planes on the astral skies to be covered before reaching the Ultimategoal of "Satchinananda" .Most of us are qualified to talk about Moksha , because we are likeblind men describing colours. Till we practise towards becomingqualifying for reaching the 5th level mentioned above, and be

good inthis birth, we cannot even think about Moksha. It is not like buying acow and getting free milk from its udders.The main point of my mail is that if we do not believe in God, then wemust not be here. If we do not believe that God created Man , then wemust not be talking about astrology. We have to be believers first.Sorry I may have sounded a bit harsh, but certain points cannt bedigested.best wishes,Bhaskar.

September 4, 2009

Dear Shri Yogesh ji,

I am sorry I could not read that mail which you send me a few days ago, because no attachments are opening in my mail since last 15 days, and I will have to forward your mail to another id and open those attachments there, which I could not do uptil now due to other work. I will surely do it right away, alongwith some other mails of few contacts whose attachments too I have not been able to open.

regards,

Bhaskar.--- On Fri, 4/9/09, Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmi wrote:

Yogesh Lajmi <yogeshlajmiRe: God has created Man and not vice versa. Cc: "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotishFriday, 4 September, 2009, 2:30 PM

Dear Bhaskar,

I had written that provocative piece only to find out just how different astrologers perceive creation,or God,by giving the quite notorius view, of our famous scientist Jayant Narlikar, from TIFR...which he had aired on a TV interview and dismissed astrology as bumkum and a confidence tricksters' game...etc.,

I guess,I have succeeded to some extent...

You must surely have gone through my earlier article " The Universal Urge For Moksha or Nirvana"...which I have endorsed to many members of this group...

With kind regards,

Yogesh Lajmi.

bhaskar_jyotish <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Friday, September 4, 2009 1:10:57 PM God has created Man and not vice versa.

God has created man and not vice versa.Moksha is not of the mind, but actual state of existence. Mind is atemporary existence again. Consciousness and mind are different things.Even a small ne born child has a mind, but can it do 2 x 2 + 4multiplication tables ? No. But its consciousness makes it realise whohis mother is from among the 5 ladies of the house sorrounding Him. Mindcan get deranged, as in "Lunatic". But cosnciousness will make even aLunatic know that exposure to fire brings about pain, and he will not gonear the fire.If we can believe that so and so is my Father, just because Mother toldme so, then why cant we believe that God is there because our ancestorshave told us so ?We who are doing astrology talking that God has been created by Man, isa real funny thing to hear. Why do you believe in astrology at all then. Dont we have conversations of the Rishi Munis and

Gods in ourastrological texts ? We believe the astrological dictums but fail tobelieve Gods existence ? This is hypocrisy.And wherefrom did the Rishi Munis derive their knowledge. Just byclosing their eyes ? The whole world sleeps for 6-10 hours every day. Dothey get the knowledge then, like the rishi Munis got just by closingtheir eyes?Did not the rishi Munis get their knoweldge from meditating andcontemplating on the higher powers which cannot be seen ? Whi is thatwhich cannot be seen - this higher power ? If not God then who ? Mancreated Him ? Really funny statement.Why this disbelief ? We cannot see Air, we cannot see Love, we cannotsee Pain, we cannot see joy in tangibles. But dont we feel this daily ?Then why not feel existence of God ? It is our own limitations if onecannot comprehend the existence of God, and not because God does notexists. God exists in Love and compassions

and Bhakti. If one has this,then he knows God. Therefore God is to be knowing, and not to be seeing.We are 5 watt bulbs and Gods energy may be 10000 watts. We do notqualify for that energy to be sen through us. This bulb will burst. SoGod will not enter or be visible till we raise our levels to take thatmuch energy within ourselves.Man cannot create God in mind or anywhere, for man has got limitedpowers. How can the limited create the limitless?Moksha is not a rubbish "shunya" state of mind or just seeing Sama ineverybody. Moksha is not just being without Karma. Moksha is becomingbodiless completely, free of all the astral bodies sorrounding a soul.And one of the features to remove these bodies is being free of Karma,which the "Vasnamaya Kosha" envelops. One cannot say with this humanbody in place, that "I have attained Moksha".. One cannot even say thiswith the other astral bodies in place.

There are many other featurestoo, which have to be removed in order to qualify for "Moksha". Bookishlanguage or knowledge cannot explain "Moksha" fully, unless the writerhas gone towards "Moksha" but been allowed to remain in human body forsome more time to help mankind. Only the "Siddha Purushas" can do this,and not we ordinary folks.There are 9 planes of existence in the astral skies. A human body onearth, like we are, who have remained good and if we qualify forreaching the 5th level after death, wil be free from further rebirth anddeath, but still does not qualify for "Moksha" because there are further4 planes on the astral skies to be covered before reaching the Ultimategoal of "Satchinananda" .Most of us are qualified to talk about Moksha , because we are likeblind men describing colours. Till we practise towards becomingqualifying for reaching the 5th level mentioned above, and be

good inthis birth, we cannot even think about Moksha. It is not like buying acow and getting free milk from its udders.The main point of my mail is that if we do not believe in God, then wemust not be here. If we do not believe that God created Man , then wemust not be talking about astrology. We have to be believers first.Sorry I may have sounded a bit harsh, but certain points cannt bedigested.best wishes,Bhaskar.Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger./download.php

September 4, 2009

Dear Bhaskar ji,

Why you are taking mind as physical substance only,the knowledge is matter of

mind.Different state of mind means different state of knowledge about the

subject.Spiritual level is knowledge only,what ever he experience or know about

subject.

Please read Bhagwat Geta,you will get the answer where is the " Param-tatva " .What

is the Param-Tatva.

Thanks,

M.S.Bohra

September 4, 2009

Dear Bohraji ,

Do not think that you are the only person who reads the Bhagavat Gita. I

read and understand it everyday.

You may be probably just reading it.

And you talk as if you have seen and known the param tattwa. Please tell

us what is it in few lines, and No Pravachan please.

Bhaskar.

, " msbohra62 "

<msbohra62 wrote:

>

> Dear Bhaskar ji,

>

> Why you are taking mind as physical substance only,the knowledge is

matter of mind.Different state of mind means different state of

knowledge about the subject.Spiritual level is knowledge only,what ever

he experience or know about subject.

>

> Please read Bhagwat Geta,you will get the answer where is the

" Param-tatva " .What is the Param-Tatva.

>

> Thanks,

>

> M.S.Bohra

>

September 5, 2009

Dear Bhaskar ji,

I am not here to do any " Pravachan " ,If you post long mail than it is right and

if other explaining his views than it is 'Pravachan " ! ! !

I am not stupid to think so that I am the only read the BG,it was for the

reference as you have mentioned about " Bhagwatam " .

I have not seen or realise the Paramtatava,if i can than i will be not here.

I am sharing my views here,you agree with or not it is up to you.

M.S.Bohra

, " bhaskar_jyotish "

<bhaskar_jyotish wrote:

>

> Dear Bohraji ,

>

> Do not think that you are the only person who reads the Bhagavat Gita. I

> read and understand it everyday.

>

> You may be probably just reading it.

>

> And you talk as if you have seen and known the param tattwa. Please tell

> us what is it in few lines, and No Pravachan please.

>

> Bhaskar.

>

> , " msbohra62 "

> <msbohra62@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Bhaskar ji,

> >

> > Why you are taking mind as physical substance only,the knowledge is

> matter of mind.Different state of mind means different state of

> knowledge about the subject.Spiritual level is knowledge only,what ever

> he experience or know about subject.

> >

> > Please read Bhagwat Geta,you will get the answer where is the

> " Param-tatva " .What is the Param-Tatva.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > M.S.Bohra

> >

>

September 5, 2009

Dear Bohra ji,

It is said that at certain times Silence is Golden, and any argument is

futile, because when a person argues constantly the public may stop

noting the difference between one who is a fool and one who is not.

I also do not wish to spoil any relations with a good member like you,

as not personal, so I now withdraw from this thread.

best wishes,

Bhaskar.

, " msbohra62 "

<msbohra62 wrote:

>

> Dear Bhaskar ji,

>

> I am not here to do any " Pravachan " ,If you post long mail than it is

right and if other explaining his views than it is 'Pravachan " ! ! !

>

> I am not stupid to think so that I am the only read the BG,it was for

the reference as you have mentioned about " Bhagwatam " .

>

> I have not seen or realise the Paramtatava,if i can than i will be not

here.

>

> I am sharing my views here,you agree with or not it is up to you.

>

> M.S.Bohra

>

> , " bhaskar_jyotish "

bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:

> >

> > Dear Bohraji ,

> >

> > Do not think that you are the only person who reads the Bhagavat

Gita. I

> > read and understand it everyday.

> >

> > You may be probably just reading it.

> >

> > And you talk as if you have seen and known the param tattwa. Please

tell

> > us what is it in few lines, and No Pravachan please.

> >

> > Bhaskar.

> >

> > , " msbohra62 "

> > <msbohra62@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Bhaskar ji,

> > >

> > > Why you are taking mind as physical substance only,the knowledge

is

> > matter of mind.Different state of mind means different state of

> > knowledge about the subject.Spiritual level is knowledge only,what

ever

> > he experience or know about subject.

> > >

> > > Please read Bhagwat Geta,you will get the answer where is the

> > " Param-tatva " .What is the Param-Tatva.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > M.S.Bohra

> > >

> >

>

September 5, 2009

Who created who and the talk of mind... lot of discussion!

The original philosophical statement has been actually half mentioned, the

entire quote goes thus: " God created man in his own image, and man promptly

returned the gift " . Man created God in his mind, his thought - that is not what

God IS, but that is what man thinks of God.

In that sense, yes man created God - and it is no sacrilege to say that. Rather,

it shows the paradox, the limitation of logic. The limitation of mind and its

necessity to " create " , to imagine, instead of SEEING what is right in front. It

is also appropriate to recollect the famous Russel's paradox - if God is

omnipotent, He can create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. So if he cannot

create such a rock, he is not omnipotent. If he can eventually create such a

rock, he again is not omnipotent because he cannot lift it! So who created a God

who is not omnipotent? Logic (rather its limitation) and nothing else.

And it is actually true - every person, every collectivity has its own

conception of God - and that depends on how evolved that person or group is. An

average mind thinks of God as a person, a big mind thinks of it as a concept and

only a seer as a living presence. This is why we see so much of diversity in the

theologies of different societies - in societies that worship jealous and angry

gods, such theology only represents its psyche. And it is not difficult to see

that the highest they can understand is an average human quality like jealousy,

anger and at most forgiving (that too, not infinitely merciful but sectarian

enough to punish all non-believers and protect believers no matter how immoral

they are). In the societies where gods are infinite, beyond these qualities but

still causing all these at the phenomenal level to fulfill the divine purpose,

such concepts show their psyche - their understanding of the vast and causal

nature of the universe

in sharp contrast to the former type where the understanding is (1)

anthropomorphic (2) too terrestrial and narrow.

Thus the more evolved man is, the less he will try to impose his image on god

and the more he tries to see for what god actually is. And that is the goal of

all sadhana - to get a first hand experience, to see what is instead of create

what we think that is. So for someone who asked the difference between the

" param satta " of different religions, this is the answer - the " param satta " as

defined by someone and as it exists, an attempt to know it, the modesty to

declare human incapability to understand it and only describe it in the most

general possible way to be as accurate as possible, is the difference. The

difference is of agency between the creator and created and living forever as a

subordinate of such agents (who are themselves hallucinated, have no first hand

experience of divinity and hence preach jealousy, hatred and anger), and

acknowledging the fact that such first hand experience is the goal.

Consciousness and mind: The whole range of consciousness cannot be clubbed into

mind. Seeing the whole world with mind's eye is one of the several levels. It is

certainly mind that causes the senses to be conscient, and senses that cause the

body to be conscient. Upwards, it works the other way - it is the intellect that

governs the workings of mind. The four faculties of consciousness - mind

(manas), intellect (buddhi), ego (ahankara) and memory (citta) are overlapping

but distinct. Mind/conscient-proper needs an external or inner inspiration - it

processes either external impressions or those impressions that are created from

actions. So it depends on which impressions one chooses to feed mind with, and

that " one " who chooses is the intellect. Intellect too, does not get to govern

mind's functions always. Many times, it goes unwatched - most of the times it

just repeates external impressions (that senses receive from the world) and

their memories. Some

other times it digs from memory the impressions of previous experiences - and

depending on the gross or subtle senses are active, these can be impressions

recent or old or of previous lives. As one knows himself to be subtle body

instead of gross body, his experiences and impressions will be deeper, and will

not be limited to a present life. Since gross body is specific to a life, the

impressions and knowledge that is gained without shedding mind's identification

with the body will be limited to that life. As one's identity happens with the

subtle body (sukshma sareera), one knows himself to be more than carnal. With

subtle body yogas (kundalini, mantra, hatha, laya yoga etc) one can achieve this

through proper use of mind and intellect. However, the causal is beyond these -

it is neither experienced with these nor known through these. For knowing it the

only way is to dissolve the mind-intellect in causal being.

Residence of knowledge: Knowledge exists not in mind but in the parama vyoma. It

only reflects on the mind when one realizes it. Mind is only the upadhi for

knowing, and the means for descending the knowledge into one's life.

September 5, 2009

Dear Shankara Bharadwaj ji,

Its really a thought provoking writeup,I will take time to learn it well.

Thanks for your this post,

M.S.Bohra

, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli

<shankarabharadwaj wrote:

>

> Who created who and the talk of mind... lot of discussion!

>

> The original philosophical statement has been actually half mentioned, the

entire quote goes thus: " God created man in his own image, and man promptly

returned the gift " . Man created God in his mind, his thought - that is not what

God IS, but that is what man thinks of God.

>

> In that sense, yes man created God - and it is no sacrilege to say that.

Rather, it shows the paradox, the limitation of logic. The limitation of mind

and its necessity to " create " , to imagine, instead of SEEING what is right in

front. It is also appropriate to recollect the famous Russel's paradox - if God

is omnipotent, He can create a rock so big that He cannot lift it. So if he

cannot create such a rock, he is not omnipotent. If he can eventually create

such a rock, he again is not omnipotent because he cannot lift it! So who

created a God who is not omnipotent? Logic (rather its limitation) and nothing

else.

>

> And it is actually true - every person, every collectivity has its own