Fw: Dating of Ramayana Period

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--- On Mon, 9/21/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

 

 

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

Re: Dating of Ramayana Period

USBrahmins

Cc: WAVES-Vedic

Monday, September 21, 2009, 9:40 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear friends,

 

Further to my mail I wish to bring to your notice that my friend Shri Kaulji has

raised doubt about Bharata's birth on the day following the day of Lord Rama's

birth.and he quoted  a translation of the Ramayana verse 1-18-15. That

translation, which he says he took from the Gita press edition of the Valmiki

Ramayana, is patently wrong as you can see for yourself, if you look at the

original verse, which I am giving below for your ready reference. Shri

Kaulji just copied the wrong translation from that book, without caring to check

whether the translation was correct or not. 

 

The wrong translation was

 

" Bharata of cheerful mind was born when the constellation Pushya was in the

ascendent and the Sun had entered the sign of Pisces, while the twin sons of

Sumitra wereborn when the constellation Ashlesha was in ascendent and theSun

hasreached the meridian touching the Zodiacal sign of karkata ie. cancer.

 

The relevant original verse is as follows :

 

puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |

saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 

 

Now you can see for yourself that the original Sanskrit verse says that Bharata

was born in Pushya nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Pushya nakshatra) and the

lagna (or the Ascendent also called the rising Sun)  was in Mina (Pisces), ie.

the Sun rose on that day in Mina. As Lord Rama was born in Punarvasu nakshatra

and his Lagna was Karkata (cancer) it took 14 hours (+) for the Lagna to be in

Mina ie. for the Sun to rise in Mina (Pisces) when Bharata was born and by that

time the Moon also had reached the Pushya nakshatra. The twin Lakshmana and

Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesha nakshatra (the Nakshatra ruled by sarpa)

when the Sun rose in the (next) morning.

 

This is so because the Lagna remains in one sign only for two hours and thus in

the geocentric model it takes 7 X 2 = 14 hours for the Sun to traverse the

7 intermediate            signs between Cancer  and Pisces,  which are : Leo

(Simha). Virgo (Kanya), Libra (Tula), Scorpio (Vrischik) , Dhanu (Saggittarius),

Makar (Capricorn) and Kumbha (Aquarius). 

 

I hope Shri Kaulji will take proper care in futuere to check such wrong

translations by referring to the original sanskrit verse.

 

I wish to bring to your notice another important point about the dating of

Ramayana by Dr. P.V.Vartak. He took the precessional data from the five middle

kandas of Ramayana to show that Lord Rama was born around 7300 BCE.  So,

irrespective of whether the Bala kanda and the Uttara kanda are interpolated or

not, one need not have any apprehension about the date of Lord Rama in the 74th

century BCE.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

--- On Mon, 9/21/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRe: Dating of Ramayana PeriodUSBrahmins Cc: WAVES-Vedic Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 9:40 PM

 

 

 

 

 

Dear friends,

 

Further to my mail I wish to bring to your notice that my friend Shri Kaulji has raised doubt about Bharata's birth on the day following the day of Lord Rama's birth.and he quoted a translation of the Ramayana verse 1-18-15. That translation, which he says he took from the Gita press edition of the Valmiki Ramayana, is patently wrong as you can see for yourself, if you look at the original verse, which I am giving below for your ready reference. Shri Kaulji just copied the wrong translation from that book, without caring to check whether the translation was correct or not.

The wrong translation was "Bharata of cheerful mind was born when the constellation Pushya was in the ascendent and the Sun had entered the sign of Pisces, while the twin sons of Sumitra wereborn when the constellation Ashlesha was in ascendent and theSun hasreached the meridian touching the Zodiacal sign of karkata ie. cancer.

 

The relevant original verse is as follows : puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 Now you can see for yourself that the original Sanskrit verse says that Bharata was born in Pushya nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Pushya nakshatra) and the lagna (or the Ascendent also called the rising Sun) was in Mina (Pisces), ie. the Sun rose on that day in Mina. As Lord Rama was born in Punarvasu nakshatra and his Lagna was Karkata (cancer) it took 14 hours (+) for the Lagna to be in Mina ie. for the Sun to rise in Mina (Pisces) when Bharata was born and by that time the Moon also had reached the Pushya nakshatra. The twin Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesha nakshatra (the Nakshatra ruled by sarpa) when the Sun rose in the (next) morning.

 

This is so because the Lagna remains in one sign only for two hours and thus in the geocentric model it takes 7 X 2 = 14 hours for the Sun to traverse the 7 intermediate signs between Cancer and Pisces, which are : Leo (Simha). Virgo (Kanya), Libra (Tula), Scorpio (Vrischik) , Dhanu (Saggittarius), Makar (Capricorn) and Kumbha (Aquarius).

 

I hope Shri Kaulji will take proper care in futuere to check such wrong translations by referring to the original sanskrit verse.

 

I wish to bring to your notice another important point about the dating of Ramayana by Dr. P.V.Vartak. He took the precessional data from the five middle kandas of Ramayana to show that Lord Rama was born around 7300 BCE. So, irrespective of whether the Bala kanda and the Uttara kanda are interpolated or not, one need not have any apprehension about the date of Lord Rama in the 74th century BCE.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

Jai Shri Ram,

Shri Bhattacharjya has said, "Now you can see for yourself that the original Sanskrit verse says that Bharata was born in Pushya nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Pushya nakshatra) and thelagna (or the Ascendent also called the rising Sun) was in Mina (Pisces), ie. the Sun rose on that day in Mina.........."

If Shri Bhattacfharjya, being himself a jyotishi--- apraoksya as well as parokshya---says, "the sun rose on that day in Mina" it naturally means that Bharata was born with the sun in Mina! The sun of Shri Ram, as per the same Bhattacharjya- aparokshya as well as parokshya jyotishi---was in Mesha! Obviously, Bharata was either younger than Shri Ram by at least eleven months or elder than Him at least by one day--since the sun does not move backwards like Rahu, from Mesha to Mina--but from Mina to Mesha! Or maybe Bhattacharjya Sun does move even backwards, since if Bhattacharjya Ram can be born in impossible astronomical combinations, when there were no Mesha etc. rashis around in the whole world, what power can prevent the Bhattacharjya sun to go retrograde! After all, "Vedic astrologers" are more omnipotent than even Parabrahma, since they can "create" and "destroy" even divine incarnations whenever it pleases them!

Then again, if the sun of the sons of Sumitra was "kuleere abyudite ravav", why is Shri Bhattacharjya so adamant that it could not mean that the sun of Shatrugana and Lakshama was in karkata!

It is surprising that on the one hand Shri Bhattacharjya has himself admitted that the Balakanda and Uttarakanda of the Ramayana, which contain astrological details of the charts of Shri Ram and his siblings, are concoctions by someone other than than Valmiki, since that "adulterator" has said that Shri Ram ruled for eleven thousand years, which does not gell with the views of "Vedic astrologers", but the same Shri Bhattacharjya jyotishi is fighting tooth and nail to prove those very concoctions by some good for nothng jyotishi to be correct, just because they contain some impossible astronomical combinatoins!

Kaliyuga, after all!

Jai Shri Ram

A K Kaul

With regards,

A K Kaul

> > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:> , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:> Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya Re: Dating of Ramayana Period> USBrahmins > Cc: WAVES-Vedic > Monday, September 21, 2009, 9:40 PM> > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > Further to my mail I wish to bring to your notice that my friend Shri Kaulji has raised doubt about Bharata's birth on the day following the day of Lord Rama's birth.and he quoted a translation of the Ramayana verse 1-18-15. That translation, which he says he took from the Gita press edition of the Valmiki Ramayana, is patently wrong as you can see for yourself, if you look at the original verse, which I am giving below for your ready reference. Shri Kaulji just copied the wrong translation from that book, without caring to check whether the translation was correct or not. > > The wrong translation was> > "Bharata of cheerful mind was born when the constellation Pushya was in the ascendent and the Sun had entered the sign of Pisces, while the twin sons of Sumitra wereborn when the constellation Ashlesha was in ascendent and theSun hasreached the meridian touching the Zodiacal sign of karkata ie. cancer.> > The relevant original verse is as follows : > > puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |> saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 > > Now you can see for yourself that the original Sanskrit verse says that Bharata was born in Pushya nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Pushya nakshatra) and the lagna (or the Ascendent also called the rising Sun) was in Mina (Pisces), ie. the Sun rose on that day in Mina. As Lord Rama was born in Punarvasu nakshatra and his Lagna was Karkata (cancer) it took 14 hours (+) for the Lagna to be in Mina ie. for the Sun to rise in Mina (Pisces) when Bharata was born and by that time the Moon also had reached the Pushya nakshatra. The twin Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesha nakshatra (the Nakshatra ruled by sarpa) when the Sun rose in the (next) morning. > > This is so because the Lagna remains in one sign only for two hours and thus in the geocentric model it takes 7 X 2 = 14 hours for the Sun to traverse the 7 intermediate signs between Cancer and Pisces, which are : Leo (Simha). Virgo (Kanya), Libra (Tula), Scorpio (Vrischik) , Dhanu (Saggittarius), Makar (Capricorn) and Kumbha (Aquarius). > > I hope Shri Kaulji will take proper care in futuere to check such wrong translations by referring to the original sanskrit verse.> > I wish to bring to your notice another important point about the dating of Ramayana by Dr. P.V.Vartak. He took the precessional data from the five middle kandas of Ramayana to show that Lord Rama was born around 7300 BCE. So, irrespective of whether the Bala kanda and the Uttara kanda are interpolated or not, one need not have any apprehension about the date of Lord Rama in the 74th century BCE.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE),in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESHU)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel

[Guest guest]

Dear Goelji,Kindly have a look at the following analysis.1)Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of

Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis :3)Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries.4)Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.5)Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.6)The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.7)Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7329 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise (and that means in in Cancer Lagna). This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goelRE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period , , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In

that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel