Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

 

Sorry there was a typographical error. The Buddhist text Dr. Vartak quoteshelps

us find the date as 7319 BCE and not 7329 BCE . Sorry for the inconvemience.

caused if any.

 

Further I said that the kingship went to Bharata as his Sun was in Lagna but his

kingship was not a complete Kingship as he considered himself to be acting on

Lord Rama's behalf and he kept the footwear of Lord Rama on the throne instead

of occupying it himself.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. BHattacharjya

 

 

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

RE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period

 

Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology ,

vedic_research_institute , WAVES-Vedic ,

USBrahmins , indiaarchaeology

Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PM

 

Dear Goelji,

 

Kindly have a look at the following analysis.

 

1)

Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from

precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of

Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient

Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the

Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas.

2)

Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between

the year of Lord Rama's  going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. 

Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha

passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book  he was aware of the

Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of

parinirvana of

Lord Buddha  was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data

and  the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work

from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it

is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text

quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.

 

Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a

contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the

following analysis :

 

3)

Lord Rama was  born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth

house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or

closest to the Aries.

4)

Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching

Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.

5)

Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.

6)

The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly

means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules.

Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth

sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord

Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.

7)

Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means

the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite

possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes /

exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate

date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to

move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the

approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some

unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.

 

Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his

book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to

the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding

the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes

helps us find the date as 7329 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of

7323 BCE.

 

This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have

all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a

figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation

also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of

Lord Rama is the best  astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and

of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra

and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is

interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. 

Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in

the Ashlesha Nakshatra)  and at Sunrise (and that means in in Cancer Lagna).

This is for astrological  discussions only and  the historians will not  be

interested in these finer details.

 

Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the

pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the

historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than

through astrology alone.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

 

 

--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:

 

gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel

RE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period

, ,

vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute ,

indiaarchaeology

Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,

DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is not

question his findings. In any case this is an unending debate

which never dies.

I have some observations:

Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:

After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was born

in 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,

in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs

(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR

OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-

cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)

THE following OBSERVATION can be made:

1. There may be some  reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was

born

    in dark or bright  half of the lunar month.

 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the

text.

    In

that case Sun can be  either inPisces or  Aries.

3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical

tithi

   were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.

4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in

common use

   having 62 months of 30  solar days each.

 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun

,Jupiter,

   Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five

planets were in

  own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should 

also be in Aries,

  In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement

of

  of sloka regarding five planets.

 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in

last pada of

    Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.

As regard following sloka:

 

puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |

saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15

 

" The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born in

pisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were born

in aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign. "

It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.

 

This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me

thus far.

It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the

computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto

the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.

Best regards,

 

 

G. K. Goel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,Sorry there was a typographical error. The Buddhist text Dr. Vartak quoteshelps us find the date as 7319 BCE and not 7329 BCE . Sorry for the inconvemience. caused if any.Further I said that the kingship went to Bharata as his Sun was in Lagna but his kingship was not a complete Kingship as he considered himself to be acting on Lord Rama's behalf and he kept the footwear of Lord Rama on the throne instead of occupying it himself.Regards,Sunil K. BHattacharjyaSunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , WAVES-Vedic , USBrahmins , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PMDear Goelji,Kindly have a look at the following

analysis.1)Dr. Vartak manually calculated the approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of

Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis :3)Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries.4)Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.5)Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.6)The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.7)Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7329 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise (and that means in in Cancer Lagna). This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goelRE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period , , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In

that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel

[Guest guest]

Dear Goelji,Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha

Nakshatra.Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRevised Dating of Ramayana PeriodskbhattacharjyaDate: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya

wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , WAVES-Vedic , USBrahmins , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PMDear Goelji,Kindly have a look at the following analysis.1)Dr. Vartak manually calculated the

approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of

Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis :3)Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries.4)Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.5)Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.6)The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.7)Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goelRE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period , , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In

that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel

[Guest guest]

As far as I could understand from the sloka given inValmiki Ramayna: "Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God.Regards,G. K. Goel

From: sunil_bhattacharjyaDate: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700 Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

 

 

 

 

Dear Goelji,Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha

Nakshatra.Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya > wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya >Revised Dating of Ramayana Periodskbhattacharjya Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya >

wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya >RE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , WAVES-Vedic , USBrahmins , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PMDear Goelji,Kindly have a look at the following analysis.1)Dr. Vartak manually calculated the

approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of

Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis :3)Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries.4)Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.5)Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.6)The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.7)Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>RE: Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Period , , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute , indiaarchaeology Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In

that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Goelji,I think it is then best to agree to disagree. Nakshatras are linked to the Moon and not to the Sun. The Sun is always lined to the Rashis. The verse do not mention that the twins of Sumitra were born in Karkata Lagna.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun, 10/11/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goelRE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 6:04 AM

 

 

 

As far as I could understand from the sloka given inValmiki Ramayna: "Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God.Regards,G. K. Goel

ancient_indian_ astrologysunil_bhattacharjya @Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

 

 

 

 

Dear Goelji,Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time

Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha

Nakshatra.Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>Revised Dating of Ramayana Periodskbhattacharjya@ gmail.comThursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Periodancient_indian_ astrologyCc: Jyotishgroup, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, WAVES-Vedic, USBrahmins@gro ups.com, indiaarchaeologyThursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PMDear Goelji,Kindly have a look at the following analysis.1)Dr. Vartak manually calculated the

approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of

Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis :3)Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries.4)Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.5)Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.6)The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.7)Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT)

com>RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Periodancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, indiaarchaeologyThursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In

that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel

 

 

 

 

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Dear Goelji,This is further to the earlier mail on the subject. It was regarding the interpretation of the verse in the context of the birth of the twins of Sumitra. The relevant verse is :puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 You have interpreted it as : "Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun." In the last mail I said as

follows: It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later

in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna

was not mentioned separately. By the time Lakshmana and Shatrughna were

born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred.

Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the

Ashlesha Nakshatra.It appears to me that Bharata was born on the previous day and the twins were born on the following day as it would have taken one day for the Moon to to go from the Pushya to the Ashlesha Nakshatra. If we go by your interpretation the twins were born slightly more than three months after the birth of Bharata as the Sun would have required that much time (ie. slightly more than three months) to go from the end of the Mina Rashi to the Karkata Rashi. So there may be some ambiguity in the birthday of the twins but not in that of Lord Rama andd Bharata.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun, 10/11/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyaRE:

Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: Jyotishgroup , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 3:12 PMDear Goelji,I think it is then best to agree to disagree. Nakshatras are linked to the Moon and not to the Sun. The Sun is always lined to the Rashis. The verse do not mention that the twins of Sumitra were born in Karkata Lagna.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun, 10/11/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel

wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goelRE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 6:04 AM

 

 

 

As far as I could understand from the sloka given inValmiki Ramayna: "Bharat was born in Pisces Lagna and Pusyva Nakshata, and twins of Sumitra were born in Cancer Lagna ans Aslesha Nakshatra - All the three births Took place after Sun rise , This means Bharta was born Pisces Lagna with Sun. This also explains the birth of Lord Rama on Navami Thithi. Now truth is only knowm to God.Regards,G. K. Goel

ancient_indian_ astrologysunil_bhattacharjya @Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:44:34 -0700[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

 

 

 

 

Dear Goelji,Further to the earlier mail I looked at the possible Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna. In Ramayana their Lagna is not mentioned separately. Though we do not know the exact Sun-rise time in Ayodhya on the date of their birth I feel that the Lagna could be Mina, ie. the same as that of Bharata. In Ayodhya Lord Rama was born at mid-day and the Lagna was Karkata (Cancer). If we assume the Krakata Lagna period was from 12 noon to 2 pm then the Mina (Pisces) Lagna was from 4 am to 6 am. It could be that Bharata was born earlier and Lakshmana was born later in the same Lagna and that is why the Lagna of Lakshmana and Shatrughna was not mentioned separately. By the time

Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born the Sun was already at the horizon ie. the Sunrise occurred. Within the same Lagna period the Moon shifted from the Pushya to the Ashlesha

Nakshatra.Awaiting the comments from you as well as from other friends from the group.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>Revised Dating of Ramayana Periodskbhattacharjya@ gmail.comThursday, October 8, 2009, 4:57 PM--- On Thu, 10/8/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>

wrote:Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Periodancient_indian_ astrologyCc: Jyotishgroup, vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, WAVES-Vedic, USBrahmins@gro ups.com, indiaarchaeologyThursday, October 8, 2009, 4:55 PMDear Goelji,Kindly have a look at the following analysis.1)Dr. Vartak manually calculated the

approximate year of Lord Rama's birth from precessional data. He has given all these details in his book on the date of Ramayana. One must give credit to him for that. For those interested in Ancient Indian History this alone is sufficient as this date is corroborated by the Surya-vamsha lineage given in the Puranas. 2) Dr. Vartak also mentioned about a Buddhist text which gives the time-gap between the year of Lord Rama's going to Sri Lanka and the Parinirvana of Lord Buddha. Dr. Vartak could not relate that date as he was not aware that Lord Buddha passed away in 1807 BCE. At that time of writing his book he was aware of the Max Mullerian date in the 5th century BCE only. The year 1807 BCE as the date of parinirvana of

Lord Buddha was worked out by Late Kota Venkatachalam from the Puranic data and the work of Prof. Narahari Achar using Astrological data and my own work from study of the Dotted Record confirm the date of Kota Venkatachalam. Now it is seen that the precessional data and the information from the Buudhist text quoted by Dr. Vartak tallies.Now coming to the exact day from the astrlogical data I agree that it is a contentious issue but by applying our mind we can sort out the issue from the following analysis :3)Lord Rama was born at noon. So the Sun was in the tenth house or near the tenth house. If his ascendent is Cancer then the Sun has to be either in the Arties or closest to the Aries.4)Adhyatma Ramayana, a later day text from Purana, says that the Sun was reaching Aries. It could mean that the Sun was closest to Aries.5)Now if the Sun is closest to aries and the Moon is in Cancer then it means

that Lord Rama was born in a Shuklapaksha Navam and not Krishnapaksha Navami.6)The Sun actually appears to be around 27 degree in Pisces. This surprisingly means that Budha (Mercury) is in the nakshatra Revati, which it rules. Astrologically speaking had the Sun been at the Aries (ie. in Lord Rama's tenth sign) Kaikeyi would not have succeeded in taking away the kingship from Lord Rama. It is another matter that he was born to take away Ravana from the earth.7)Five planets were in sva and / or uccha. The Moon and Jupiter in cancer means the Moon was in Sva-hiouse and Juoiter in the house of exaltation. It is quite possible that the Mars, Venus and Saturn could have been in sva- houes / exalted. Now the Saturn's position can be found out if one knows the approximate date as in the geo-centric model it takes the longest time among the Grahas to move round the earth. From the precessional data Dr. vartak found out the approximate year of

Lord Rama's birth and that fixes the position of saturn in Libra. So some unceratinty remains regarding the fast moving planets Mars and Venus.Dr. Vartak did all calculations manually and gives full deatils of those in his book. His is an open book and he found the year of Lord Rama's birth closest to the date he arrived from the precessional data. But he too goofed up regarding the position of the Sun. He took the Sun at Aries. The Buddist text he quotes helps us find the date as 7319 BCE whereas Dr. Vartak arrived at the date of 7323 BCE. This does not matter, as for the purpose of fixing the day for festivals we have all the required data and the historian also cannot complain as they get a figure, which fits in with all the puranic data The Puranic yuga calculation also tallies with this date in the Treta yuga. To my mind Dr. Vartak's date of Lord Rama is the best astronomical date found so far. The date of Bharata and of

Lakhna and Shatrughna is very clear. Bharat was born in the Pushya makshatra and Mina Lagna, ie. late in the night following Lord Rama's birth. It is interesting to see that he got the kingship as the Sun was in his Lagna. Lakshmana and Shatrughna were born in the Ashlesh nakshatra (ie. the Moon was in the Ashlesha Nakshatra) and at Sunrise. This is for astrological discussions only and the historians will not be interested in these finer details. Finally I would ike to submit that though I love astrology and picking up the pebbles on the sea shore I look at the chrological matters more through the historical ( that includes puranic records too) and astronomical data than through astrology alone. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 10/8/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT)

com>RE: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fw: Re: Dating of Ramayana Periodancient_indian_ astrology, , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ institute, indiaarchaeologyThursday, October 8, 2009, 5:45 AM

 

 

 

Dear BHATTACHARJYA JI,DR. Vartak is a well known authority and this mail is notquestion his findings. In any case this is an unending debatewhich never dies.I have some observations:Slola 1-18-8and 9 may mean as under:After completion of yajna and lapse of 6 seasons,Rama was bornin 12th month of Chaitra , on ninth tithi(NAVAMIKE) ,in Punarvasu Nakshatra, five planets were in their own and exalted signs(SAVOCHCHASANSTHESH U)-THIS MAY MEAN THAT FIVE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN EXALTED SIGNS OR THESE PLANETS WERE IN THEIR OWN AND/OR EXALTED SIGNS-cancer LAGNA WITH JUPITER AND Moon (VAKPATAVIDUNA SAH)THE following OBSERVATION can be made:1. There may be some reasons to believe , but sloka does not say that Rama was born in dark or bright half of the lunar month. 2. If it is assumed that SIDREAL lunar month of chaitra was refered in the text. In

that case Sun can be either inPisces or Aries.3. What was the method of counting of tithis in those days?Probably mathematical tithi were not in use in those days.Even , diva and ratri karna.4. What type of calander was in use in those days.Panch yugi calender was in common use having 62 months of 30 solar days each. 5 If it is assumed that Five planets were in their exalted signs then Sun ,Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and Venus were in exaltation signs.But if sloka means that five planets were in own (sva) and Uchcha signs , Then their is no requirememt that Sun should also be in Aries, In that case Moon , Jupiter,Saturn, Mars and Venus will meet the requirement of of sloka regarding five planets. 6. In any case if Sun is in Aries , it is dificult to explain that moon was in last pada of Punarvasu nakshatra in

cancer.As regard following sloka: puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 "The meaning are clear - After Sun rise (abhyudite ravau), Bharat was born inpisces Lagna and Pusya Nakchatra.And two sons of Sumitra were bornin aslesha nakshatra and cancer sign."It may be mentioned that 'Vakpati means Jupiter as well as Pusya Nakshatra.This mail is just to seek clarifications on the points which are not clear to me thus far.It would be intresting to know the parametres which Dr. Vartak fed in the computer to arrive a particular date. At least that date can be relied upon upto the extent and on the basis of these parameteres.Best regards,G. K. Goel

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil ji,Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impressionthat preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata.The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having betteraccess TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days:Now we try to understand the verse;puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line:puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WASBORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerfulAND PLEASENT.saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre

Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE) abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS. THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES.MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUNWAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRAAS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA.THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREEARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA,GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSEAND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER)REGARDS,

G. K. Goel

[Guest guest]

Dear Goelji,Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to "Kuleera" it does mean the snake by the name "Kuleera" and so also does the word "Sarpa" mean snake. It could be that "Kuleera Sarpa" (ie. the snake called "Kuleera") is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line

of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to

this. The verse now appears as follows:

puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer.Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were

born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : "abhyudite ravau", which to my mind means "at the time the Sun was rising"?Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM

 

 

 

Dear Sunil ji,Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impressionthat preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata.The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having betteraccess TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days:Now we try to understand the verse;puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line:puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WASBORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerfulAND PLEASENT.saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre

Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE) abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS. THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES.MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUNWAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRAAS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA.THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREEARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA,GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSEAND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE

ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER)REGARDS,

G. K. Goel

[Guest guest]

Dear SIR,Aslesha Nakshatra is called Sarpa,The Cancer sign is called Kulir ,even this is dictionary meaning as welljataka classics calls Cancer as KulirAs such twins were born in Cancer Lagna and Moon was in Aslesha.I could understand that much.I study Valmiki Ramayan so that I could improve my conduct.I have not made any study from Astronomy or Astrological pointof view.Many thanks for your mail.Beat regards,G. K. Goel

CC: ; vedic astrology ; vedic_research_institute From: sunil_bhattacharjyaDate: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:07:56 -0700Re: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

 

 

 

 

Dear Goelji,Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to "Kuleera" it does mean the snake by the name "Kuleera" and so also does the word "Sarpa" mean snake. It could be that "Kuleera Sarpa" (ie. the snake called "Kuleera") is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line

of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to

this. The verse now appears as follows:

puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer.Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were

born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : "abhyudite ravau", which to my mind means "at the time the Sun was rising"?Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM

 

 

 

Dear Sunil ji,Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impressionthat preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata.The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having betteraccess TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days:Now we try to understand the verse;puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line:puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WASBORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerfulAND PLEASENT.saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre

Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE) abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS. THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES.MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUNWAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRAAS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA.THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREEARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA,GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSEAND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE

ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER)REGARDS,

G. K. Goel

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Goelji,1)I know that Kuleera has been used to mean Cancer by Varahamihira, Sphurudhwaja and others about 2500 years ago. But how can one know that this terminology was used in the times of Lord Rama? We have seen that Karkata was mentioned in connection with Lord Rama's birth. I think all the references to show the use of Kuleera to mean Karkata rashi could be of much later date. Moreover the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra is also symbolised by Snake. So it is quite possible that Kullere Sarpe was used to specify Aslesha (as the snake from the cancer) and thus to distinguish it from the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra.2)If we take the twins to have been born in the Cancer Lagna the twins could have been born in the afternoon and not in the morning? This could be incomapatibe with the statement "abhyudite

ravau"3)Or could it be that there was some time gap in days or months so that both the conditions of morning birth in Ayodhya and Cancer Lagna got satisfied? 4)May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer.Anyway even if some grey areas regarding the birth-time of the Twins remain we have the satisfaction that we coiuld sort out the data on Lord Rama's birth, which is vey important from the chronological point of view.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 10/14/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel wrote:gopal krishna goel

<g.k.goelRE: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Cc: , vedic astrology , vedic_research_institute Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 12:16 AM

 

 

 

Dear SIR,Aslesha Nakshatra is called Sarpa,The Cancer sign is called Kulir ,even this is dictionary meaning as welljataka classics calls Cancer as KulirAs such twins were born in Cancer Lagna and Moon was in Aslesha.I could understand that much.I study Valmiki Ramayan so that I could improve my conduct.I have not made any study from Astronomy or Astrological pointof view.Many thanks for your mail.Beat regards,G. K. Goel

ancient_indian_ astrologyCC: ; vedic astrology; vedic_research_ institutesunil_bhattacharjya @Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:07:56 -0700Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

 

 

 

 

Dear Goelji,Yes, I am also of the opinion that all the brothers were born when the Sun was in Pisces. Now coming to "Kuleera" it does mean the snake by the name "Kuleera" and so also does the word "Sarpa" mean snake. It could be that "Kuleera Sarpa" (ie. the snake called "Kuleera") is used here to mean the Ashlesha Nakshatra. The meaning will be obvious if we realign the words in the second line

of the verse and we know that in Sanskrit the words can be repositioned to make a better rhyme and that is what the poet had done it the original text. I believe the Sanskrit grammarians will not object to

this. The verse now appears as follows:

puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |kuLIre saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 . To me it appears that during the Ramayana days (ie. around the 9th millennium BCE) Karkata was used to denote the Rashi and its use was specifically to denote Lagna. Rashi in the astrological sense came to be used only about six thousand years later after the Mahabharata days. Kuleera might not have been used to mean cancer in the days of Ramayana as we have seen that while describing the birth of Lord Rama the word Karkata was used for Cancer.Secondly Lord Rama was born at noon time in Punarvasu Nakshatra (ie. when the Moon was in punarvasu nakshatra). Bharat was born in the Pushya Nakshatra and the Twins in the Ashlesha nakshatra. So there must be more that 24 hours gap between the birth of Lord Rama and the Twins. If we go by your interpretation then the Twins were

born past the noon time, ie.in the afternoon. Then how can we reconcile with the wording : "abhyudite ravau", which to my mind means "at the time the Sun was rising"?Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Tue, 10/13/09, gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:gopal krishna goel <g.k.goel (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Periodancient_indian_ astrologyCc: , vedic astrology, vedic_research_ instituteTuesday, October 13, 2009, 6:46 AM

 

 

 

Dear Sunil ji,Frankly speaking , rightly or wrongly , I some how gather the impressionthat preparation of nativities were become popular after the era of Mahabharata.The savant then prepared the nativities based on the information available with them. Naturally 4000 years back they must be having betteraccess TO CLASSICS as well astronomical and astrological practices prevalent in those days:Now we try to understand the verse;puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 I will comment on the first line:puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |As the name of BHARTA IS APPEARING FIRST , IT IS CLEAR THAT HE WASBORN EARLIER IN PUSHYA NAKSHATRA AND PISCES Lagna,His disposition was cheerfulAND PLEASENT.saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre

Sumitra gave birth to twins in aslesa nakshatra and Cancer Lagna(KULIRE) abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15 THESE TWO WORDS ARE QUALIYYING THE BIRTH OF ALL THE THREE BROTHERS. THESE TWO WORDS INDICATE THAT ALL THE THREE WERE BORN AFTER sUN RISE.THIS MEANS THAT BHART WAS BORN IN PISCES LAGNA WITH SUN AND BOTH THE TWINS WERE BORH IN CANCER LAGNA AT ABOUT NOON WITH SUN IN PISCES.MY INFRENCE IS THAT ALL THE FOUR BROTHERES WERE BORN WHEN SUNWAS IN PISCES , MOON AND JUPITER IN CANCER. JUPITER WAS IN PUSYA NAKSHATRAAS EARLIER VERSE SAYS 'VAKPATI ' WHICH HAS DUAL MEANING 'JUPITER' AND ALSO 'PUSYA'NAKSHATRA.THE PERSONS WHICH IS BORN WITH SUN JUST AFTER THE RISING DEGREEARE VERY FAMOUS AND LUCKY. THEIR ALL THE SPECIAL LAGNAL LIKE BHAVA,HORA,GHATI ETC 12 LAGNA FALL IN ASCENDING SIGN. BHART AL WILL FALL IN 9TH HOUSEAND HIS ALL LAGNAS WILL BE

ASPECTED BY EXALTED JUPITER. HIS A10 FALLS IN 12TH HOUSE ANS AL AND A6 FALLS IN 9TH HOUSE . HE HAD RENOUNCE THE KINGDOM FOR SOME CAUSE (KARKA OF YONGER BROTHERS , EXALTED MARS IS PLACED IN11TH HOUSE REPRESENTING ELDER BROTHER)REGARDS,

G. K. Goel

 

 

 

From the events that change the world, to the ones that just shouldn’t be missed. Catch it all on MSN India. Drag n’ drop

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattachrjya ji,

//May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the

forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am

only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the

answer.//

I have once discussed the Rama horoscope and the meaning of that sloka in

detail once, and the ripples that caused is yet to fadeout in many peoples

minds. So I don't want to touch it again. You can search the archives and

check my mails to have the details. As per my interpretation " Kulieera

abhyuditaravou " Meant, Ara (Mars) - exalted - in Capricorn. As per the Sanskrit

dictionaries " Kuleere Nakra Karkatau " Means, Kuleera is a name used to refer to

either Capricorn or Cancer. This much, just for you information. I want to keep

away from this thread. You can check the archive to get my detailed

interpretation and analysis - No more fireworks!

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Goelji,

>

> 1)

> I know that Kuleera has been used to mean Cancer by Varahamihira, Sphurudhwaja

and others about 2500 years ago. But how can one know that this terminology was

used in the times of Lord Rama? We have seen that Karkata was mentioned in

connection with Lord Rama's birth.  I think all the references to show the use

of Kuleera to mean Karkata rashi could be of much later date. Moreover the

Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra is also symbolised by Snake. So it is quite possible

that Kullere Sarpe was used to specify Aslesha (as the snake from the cancer)

and thus to  distinguish it from the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra.

> 2)

> If we take the twins to have been born in the Cancer Lagna  the twins could

have been born in  the afternoon and not in the morning? This could be

incomapatibe with the statement " abhyudite ravau "

> 3)

> Or could it be that there was some time gap in days or months so that both the

conditions of morning birth in Ayodhya and Cancer Lagna got satisfied?

> 4)

> May be  some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the

forums, that we have, would like to say something  constructive on this? I am

only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the

answer.

>

> Anyway even if some grey areas  regarding the birth-time of the Twins remain

we have the satisfaction that we coiuld sort out the data on Lord Rama's birth,

which is vey important from the chronological point of view.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,Thank you for your response. It appears that your approach is somewhat like that of mine We both are are looking at it etymologically and that way Kuleera can mean one dwelling in the mud. If something is smeared with mud you cannot see it properly. So also if a snake is coated with mud one may not be able to recognise it by looking at it superficially. Such is the Ashlesha nakshatra. Those born in Ashlesha can be deceptively simple, gentle and amiable while in reality they may be tough and shrewd, when needed. On the other hand the snake in the Uttarabhadrapada lives in depths like the Kundalini and can be elusive. One may really find it difficult to understand the profundity of those born in Uttarabhadrapada. That is why I thought that just saying Sarpa could not mean Ashlesha alone and for that reason the

author of the Ramayana qualified the Sarpa by saying that it is the Kuleera Sarpa or the mud-smeared Sarpa. As Karakata contains the Ashlesha nakshatra and the Cancerians in general too retract at times to their shell or to the mud (the crab lives in the mud too) the astrologers could have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time of Varahamihira. In the more ancient times both Cancer and Capricorn could have been Kuleera as the Magar (of Capricorn) and the Crab (of Cancer) live in mud. The dconfusion arose because people forgot tha Lord Rama lived several millennia before Varahamihira or Sphuridhwaja.Regards.Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 10/14/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:sreesog <sreesog Re: Revised

Dating of Ramayana Period Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:27 AM

 

 

Dear Sunil Bhattachrjya ji,

//May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer.//

I have once discussed the Rama horoscope and the meaning of that sloka in detail once, and the ripples that caused is yet to fadeout in many peoples minds. So I don't want to touch it again. You can search the archives and check my mails to have the details. As per my interpretation "Kulieera abhyuditaravou" Meant, Ara (Mars) - exalted - in Capricorn. As per the Sanskrit dictionaries "Kuleere Nakra Karkatau" Means, Kuleera is a name used to refer to either Capricorn or Cancer. This much, just for you information. I want to keep away from this thread. You can check the archive to get my detailed interpretation and analysis - No more fireworks!

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

>

> Dear Goelji,

>

> 1)

> I know that Kuleera has been used to mean Cancer by Varahamihira, Sphurudhwaja and others about 2500 years ago. But how can one know that this terminology was used in the times of Lord Rama? We have seen that Karkata was mentioned in connection with Lord Rama's birth. I think all the references to show the use of Kuleera to mean Karkata rashi could be of much later date. Moreover the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra is also symbolised by Snake. So it is quite possible that Kullere Sarpe was used to specify Aslesha (as the snake from the cancer) and thus to distinguish it from the Uttarabhadrapada Nakshatra.

> 2)

> If we take the twins to have been born in the Cancer Lagna the twins could have been born in the afternoon and not in the morning? This could be incomapatibe with the statement "abhyudite ravau"

> 3)

> Or could it be that there was some time gap in days or months so that both the conditions of morning birth in Ayodhya and Cancer Lagna got satisfied?

> 4)

> May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer.

>

> Anyway even if some grey areas regarding the birth-time of the Twins remain we have the satisfaction that we coiuld sort out the data on Lord Rama's birth, which is vey important from the chronological point of view.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,

//the astrologers could have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time

of Varahamihira.//

No - it is not so. " Kuleera " is a much older word; which gets mention even in

the prime Rishi horas such as Skanda hora and Brihat Prajapatya. " " Kuleero Nakra

Karkatau " is a definition from the Ancient Sanskrit dictionary " Sabda Vyuooha

Tarangini " .

Today the most popular meaning for the word " Kuleera " is Cancer (Crab). If the

ancient dictionaries tell us that it can be used to refer to Capricorn as well

(if they point to the fact that earlier the word " Kuleera " was used to refer to

Crocodile/Capricorn as well - Nakra means 'Crocodile'), then we can go upto that

- but not beyond! Accepting either the meaning Crab (Cancer) or Crocodile

(Capricorn) is 'permitted' as per ancient Sanskrit dictionaries, but NOT taking

any other meaning - so I won't dare to go beyond that; and would limit myself

there.

While in the forest, it is better that we should try to locate the ancient

paths, of use the map path pointers they have provided us with; trying to create

our on path (implementing our own logic, instead of following the arrow marks)

could only rarely provide us with the correct direct to destination, most of the

times it makes us path lost! So please beware - the forest is hard and dark;

and many dangers ahead. We may assume the bear for tree trunk and tree trunk for

bear; Leopard for deer and deer for leopard. When path lost it is better to

stand back, look around, try to locate more pointers, and then only decide move

forward or retire.

Love and regards,

Sreeandh

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadhji,

>

> Thank you for your response. It appears that your approach is somewhat like

that of mine We both are   are looking at it etymologically and that way Kuleera

can mean one dwelling in the mud. If something is smeared with mud you cannot

see it properly. So also if a snake is coated with mud one may not be able to

recognise it by looking at it superficially. Such is the Ashlesha nakshatra.

Those born in Ashlesha can be  deceptively simple, gentle and  amiable while in

reality they may be tough and shrewd, when needed. On the other hand the snake

in the Uttarabhadrapada lives in depths like the Kundalini and can be elusive.

One may really find it difficult to understand the profundity of those born in

Uttarabhadrapada.  That is why I thought that just saying Sarpa could not mean

Ashlesha alone and for that reason the author of the Ramayana  qualified the

Sarpa by saying that it is the Kuleera Sarpa or the mud-smeared Sarpa. As

Karakata contains the

> Ashlesha nakshatra and the Cancerians in general  too retract at times  to

their shell or to the mud (the crab lives in the mud too) the astrologers could

have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time of Varahamihira. In the

more ancient times both Cancer and Capricorn could have been Kuleera as the

Magar (of Capricorn) and the Crab (of Cancer) live in mud. The dconfusion arose

because people forgot tha Lord Rama lived several millennia before Varahamihira

or Sphuridhwaja.

>

> Regards.

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:

>

> sreesog <sreesog

> Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

>

> Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:27 AM

>

> Dear Sunil Bhattachrjya ji,

>

> //May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the

forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am

only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the

answer.//

>

> I have once discussed the Rama horoscope and the meaning of that sloka in

detail once, and the ripples that caused is yet to fadeout in many peoples

minds. So I don't want to touch it again. You can search the archives and

check my mails to have the details. As per my interpretation " Kulieera

abhyuditaravou " Meant, Ara (Mars) - exalted - in Capricorn. As per the Sanskrit

dictionaries " Kuleere Nakra Karkatau " Means, Kuleera is a name used to refer to

either Capricorn or Cancer. This much, just for you information. I want to keep

away from this thread. You can check the archive to get my detailed

interpretation and analysis - No more fireworks!

>

> Love and regards,

>

> Sreenadh

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,1)What I said is that word Kuleera was known but that was not used to mean Cancer becaus it is evident from the details of Lord Rama's birth, where the word Karkata was used and not Kuleera. This appears to me to be an ancient path with a practical example. Have you any reason to suggest why Kuleera was not used in Lord Rama's case?.2) What would you think are the dates of Skanda Hora and the Brihat Prajapatya? As Skanda was mentioned in the Mahabharata in connection with the correction entailed with the fall of the Abhijit Nakshatra ie. making the divisions of the ecliptic among the 27 Nakshatras, l shall place the date of Skanda Hora later than that of the Mahabharata ie. after circa. 3100 BCE, which is several millennia after the date of Lord Rama. 3)If in the Skanda Hora, say about 5000 years ago,

the Kuleera was used for Makara as well as for Karkata then since when its use for Makara was discontinued? We have to know this otherwise this ancient path comes to a dead-end.Anyway this is an academic discussion and I repeat that even without knowing the time of Laksmana's time of birth we have the clear data in case of the birth of Lord Rama.Looking forward to hearing from you and with regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 10/14/09, sreesog <sreesog wrote:sreesog <sreesog Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 9:55 PM

 

 

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,

//the astrologers could have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time of Varahamihira. //

No - it is not so. "Kuleera" is a much older word; which gets mention even in the prime Rishi horas such as Skanda hora and Brihat Prajapatya.Kuleero Nakra Karkatau" is a definition from the Ancient Sanskrit dictionary "Sabda Vyuooha Tarangini".

Today the most popular meaning for the word "Kuleera" is Cancer (Crab). If the ancient dictionaries tell us that it can be used to refer to Capricorn as well (if they point to the fact that earlier the word "Kuleera" was used to refer to Crocodile/Capricorn as well - Nakra means 'Crocodile') , then we can go upto that - but not beyond! Accepting either the meaning Crab (Cancer) or Crocodile (Capricorn) is 'permitted' as per ancient Sanskrit dictionaries, but NOT taking any other meaning - so I won't dare to go beyond that; and would limit myself there.

While in the forest, it is better that we should try to locate the ancient paths, of use the map path pointers they have provided us with; trying to create our on path (implementing our own logic, instead of following the arrow marks) could only rarely provide us with the correct direct to destination, most of the times it makes us path lost! So please beware - the forest is hard and dark; and many dangers ahead. We may assume the bear for tree trunk and tree trunk for bear; Leopard for deer and deer for leopard. When path lost it is better to stand back, look around, try to locate more pointers, and then only decide move forward or retire.

Love and regards,

Sreeandh

 

ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadhji,

>

> Thank you for your response. It appears that your approach is somewhat like that of mine We both are are looking at it etymologically and that way Kuleera can mean one dwelling in the mud. If something is smeared with mud you cannot see it properly. So also if a snake is coated with mud one may not be able to recognise it by looking at it superficially. Such is the Ashlesha nakshatra. Those born in Ashlesha can be deceptively simple, gentle and amiable while in reality they may be tough and shrewd, when needed. On the other hand the snake in the Uttarabhadrapada lives in depths like the Kundalini and can be elusive. One may really find it difficult to understand the profundity of those born in Uttarabhadrapada. That is why I thought that just saying Sarpa could not mean Ashlesha alone and for that reason the author of the Ramayana qualified the Sarpa by saying that it is the Kuleera Sarpa or the mud-smeared Sarpa. As

Karakata contains the

> Ashlesha nakshatra and the Cancerians in general too retract at times to their shell or to the mud (the crab lives in the mud too) the astrologers could have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time of Varahamihira. In the more ancient times both Cancer and Capricorn could have been Kuleera as the Magar (of Capricorn) and the Crab (of Cancer) live in mud. The dconfusion arose because people forgot tha Lord Rama lived several millennia before Varahamihira or Sphuridhwaja.

>

> Regards.

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, sreesog <sreesog > wrote:

>

> sreesog <sreesog >

> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

> ancient_indian_ astrology

> Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:27 AM

>

> Dear Sunil Bhattachrjya ji,

>

> //May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer.//

>

> I have once discussed the Rama horoscope and the meaning of that sloka in detail once, and the ripples that caused is yet to fadeout in many peoples minds. So I don't want to touch it again. You can search the archives and check my mails to have the details. As per my interpretation "Kulieera abhyuditaravou" Meant, Ara (Mars) - exalted - in Capricorn. As per the Sanskrit dictionaries "Kuleere Nakra Karkatau" Means, Kuleera is a name used to refer to either Capricorn or Cancer. This much, just for you information. I want to keep away from this thread. You can check the archive to get my detailed interpretation and analysis - No more fireworks!

>

> Love and regards,

>

> Sreenadh

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadh-ji & Sunil-ji,

 

What may be the root of Kuleera ? Is it anyway connected to Kul

(sides of river / sea ) ?

 

Regarding Kuleera = mud, it reminds me of Kuala Lum Pur, whcih is

supposed to mean 'city of mud'

 

regards

 

Chakraborty

 

 

 

Sunil Bhattacharjya [sunil_bhattacharjya] Thursday, October 15, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period

 

 

 

 

Dear Sreenadhji,1)What I said is that word Kuleera was known but that was not used to mean Cancer becaus it is evident from the details of Lord Rama's birth, where the word Karkata was used and not Kuleera. This appears to me to be an ancient path with a practical example. Have you any reason to suggest why Kuleera was not used in Lord Rama's case?.2) What would you think are the dates of Skanda Hora and the Brihat Prajapatya? As Skanda was mentioned in the Mahabharata in connection with the correction entailed with the fall of the Abhijit Nakshatra ie. making the divisions of the ecliptic among the 27 Nakshatras, l shall place the date of Skanda Hora later than that of the Mahabharata ie. after circa. 3100 BCE, which is several millennia after the date of Lord Rama. 3)If in the Skanda Hora, say about 5000 years ago, the Kuleera was used for Makara as well as for Karkata then since when its use for Makara was discontinued? We have to know this otherwise this ancient path comes to a dead-end.Anyway this is an academic discussion and I repeat that even without knowing the time of Laksmana's time of birth we have the clear data in case of the birth of Lord Rama.Looking forward to hearing from you and with regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 10/14/09, sreesog <sreesog > wrote:

sreesog <sreesog > Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 9:55 PM

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, //the astrologers could have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time of Varahamihira. //No - it is not so. "Kuleera" is a much older word; which gets mention even in the prime Rishi horas such as Skanda hora and Brihat Prajapatya.Kuleero Nakra Karkatau" is a definition from the Ancient Sanskrit dictionary "Sabda Vyuooha Tarangini". Today the most popular meaning for the word "Kuleera" is Cancer (Crab). If the ancient dictionaries tell us that it can be used to refer to Capricorn as well (if they point to the fact that earlier the word "Kuleera" was used to refer to Crocodile/Capricorn as well - Nakra means 'Crocodile') , then we can go upto that - but not beyond! Accepting either the meaning Crab (Cancer) or Crocodile (Capricorn) is 'permitted' as per ancient Sanskrit dictionaries, but NOT taking any other meaning - so I won't dare to go beyond that; and would limit myself there. While in the forest, it is better that we should try to locate the ancient paths, of use the map path pointers they have provided us with; trying to create our on path (implementing our own logic, instead of following the arrow marks) could only rarely provide us with the correct direct to destination, most of the times it makes us path lost! So please beware - the forest is hard and dark; and many dangers ahead. We may assume the bear for tree trunk and tree trunk for bear; Leopard for deer and deer for leopard. When path lost it is better to stand back, look around, try to locate more pointers, and then only decide move forward or retire. :)Love and regards,Sreeandhancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji,> > Thank you for your response. It appears that your approach is somewhat like that of mine We both are are looking at it etymologically and that way Kuleera can mean one dwelling in the mud. If something is smeared with mud you cannot see it properly. So also if a snake is coated with mud one may not be able to recognise it by looking at it superficially. Such is the Ashlesha nakshatra. Those born in Ashlesha can be deceptively simple, gentle and amiable while in reality they may be tough and shrewd, when needed. On the other hand the snake in the Uttarabhadrapada lives in depths like the Kundalini and can be elusive. One may really find it difficult to understand the profundity of those born in Uttarabhadrapada. That is why I thought that just saying Sarpa could not mean Ashlesha alone and for that reason the author of the Ramayana qualified the Sarpa by saying that it is the Kuleera Sarpa or the mud-smeared Sarpa. As Karakata contains the> Ashlesha nakshatra and the Cancerians in general too retract at times to their shell or to the mud (the crab lives in the mud too) the astrologers could have started calling Karkata as Kuleera around the time of Varahamihira. In the more ancient times both Cancer and Capricorn could have been Kuleera as the Magar (of Capricorn) and the Crab (of Cancer) live in mud. The dconfusion arose because people forgot tha Lord Rama lived several millennia before Varahamihira or Sphuridhwaja.> > Regards.> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Wed, 10/14/09, sreesog <sreesog > wrote:> > sreesog <sreesog >> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Revised Dating of Ramayana Period> ancient_indian_ astrology> Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 5:27 AM> > Dear Sunil Bhattachrjya ji, > > //May be some of the vast number of experts like Sreenadhji and others in the forums, that we have, would like to say something constructive on this? I am only trying to find the explanations for the questions that cropped up with the answer.//> > I have once discussed the Rama horoscope and the meaning of that sloka in detail once, and the ripples that caused is yet to fadeout in many peoples minds. So I don't want to touch it again. You can search the archives and check my mails to have the details. As per my interpretation "Kulieera abhyuditaravou" Meant, Ara (Mars) - exalted - in Capricorn. As per the Sanskrit dictionaries "Kuleere Nakra Karkatau" Means, Kuleera is a name used to refer to either Capricorn or Cancer. This much, just for you information. I want to keep away from this thread. You can check the archive to get my detailed interpretation and analysis - No more fireworks! > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,

//Have you any reason to suggest why Kuleera was not used in Lord Rama's

case?.//

No - I don't.

//> What would you think are the dates of Skanda Hora and the Brihat

Prajapatya?//

No idea! The only things I know is that -

* Numerous quotes from Skanda hora is available and the language used resembles

Vedic Sanskrit and the understanding of the subject matter is dealt with

excellent understanding and from first person perspective (like " I saw " etc

statements).

* Brihat prajapatya (by Daksha) is a poetic commentary to Skanda Hora and

refers to Skanda and Skanda Hora with reverence.

* Sounaka Hora gives a poetic narration about the evolution of astrological

traditions and in this it places Skanda Hora at the beginning of the flow - i.e.

As a text in which Skanda teaches Brahma.

* Vasishta Hora is a work done based on the teaching of Brahma to Vasishta -

i.e. based on Skanda Hora teachings.

* As per Sounka hora, Kousika Hora (by Viswamitra) is a work done based on a

copy of Vasishta Hora by erroneously assuming it to be a copy of Skanda Hora.

Later when people started talking about the astronomical errors in it only,

Viswamitra came to know about this mistake and learned better astronomy from

Maya the student of Sage Surya.

* Garga Hora is based on the teachings of Brahma to sage Garga - thus possibly

a work based on Skanda Hora itself.

* Soma Jataka, Surya Aruna Samvada (Surya Hora), Chyevana Hora, Yavana hora,

Maya hora etc all follows the the above texts.

* The first authentic text of astronomy (apart from the excellent and unerring

knowledge of Skanda) as per the above tradition is the teachings of Sage Surya

which later got compiled by Maya with the name 'Surya Siddhanta'.

Thus the tradition is clear. Among these many sages the only datable info we

have is about Sage Garga. Form the precision of Ayana related statements given

in Garga Hora (and as quoted by 6th century Mihira and 12th century Ballala Sena

in Adbhuta Sagara) we can come to the conclusion that Sage Garga lived around BC

1100. Skanda, Daksha and Vasishta under consideration here must have lived

before him; and Kousika, Sounaka etc later. Beyond this I knew nothing about the

possible date of origin of Skanda Hora or Brihat Prajapatya.

Love and regards,

Sreenadh

 

, Sunil Bhattacharjya

<sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:

>

> Dear Sreenadhji,

>

> 1)

> What I said is that word Kuleera was known but that was not used to mean

Cancer becaus it is evident from the details of Lord Rama's birth, where  the

word Karkata was used and not Kuleera. This appears to me to be an ancient path

with a practical example. Have you any reason to suggest why Kuleera was not

used in Lord Rama's case?.

>

> 2)

> What would you think are the dates of Skanda Hora and the Brihat Prajapatya?

As Skanda was mentioned in the Mahabharata in connection with the correction

entailed with the fall of the Abhijit Nakshatra ie. making the divisions of the

ecliptic among the 27 Nakshatras, l shall place the date of Skanda Hora later

than that of the Mahabharata ie. after circa. 3100 BCE, which is several

millennia after the date of Lord Rama.

>

> 3)

> If in the Skanda Hora, say about 5000 years ago, the Kuleera was used for

Makara as well as for Karkata then since when its use for Makara was

discontinued? We have to know this otherwise this ancient path comes to a

dead-end.

>

> Anyway this is an academic discussion and I repeat that even without knowing

the time of Laksmana's time of birth we have the clear data in case of the birth

of Lord Rama.

>

> Looking  forward to hearing from you and with regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

[Guest guest]

HELLO SIRS,

I hope that it is very difficult to ascertain the

exact date of the Ramayana Period on the basis of the existing

astrological theories. Before that we should know the details of the

Ancient Indians calendar system in which, our current one year has

been enlarged into one deva day and 360 deva days are equated to one

deva year and so on such as 1200 deva years is equal to one chatur

youga, 71 Chatur yougas is equal to one manvantra and 14 manvantras

equated to one kalpa and there are 7 kalpas which were identified by

the ancient Indians. I feel that in one kalpa period a number of same

particular youga will be seen. Now ,we are in the Swedhavraha Kalpa

and vaivasvatha manvanthara in the Kaliyuga as per our vedas.

R.SWAMINATHAN