Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 The birth data for the daughter of shri NC Gupta ji, posted here by him, is Date of birth : Sept 2,1975 Time of birth : 9:22 am {ist} Place of birth: Gurgaon {77E02;28N28} I assume that the time of birth must have been very accurately noted down by NC Gupta ji because he is an astrologer himself. With this data - Lagna is Virgo [ 29:04:35 ] with Lahiri Ayanamsha 23:31:19 I double checked the Lagna both on my PC ( thro' two programs ) and I even manually worked it out, and it stayed at Virgo 29:04 ie. almost one degree in Virgo still to go. {A} Isn't it strange that Bhatia ji declared it as Libra even after his verification questions ? {B} Libra would begin some FOUR minutes later. Does it mean that the time was not noted accurately? [ not very likely] {C} Since Rasi is not important for the Lal Kitab , is the accuracy of the Lagna also not important? Forgive me for my observations, with regards upadhyay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Dear Upadhyay Ji, Few days back I had posted one mail raising the same issue in some other forum and it received a lot of attention. According to that post there can be lot of sources of inaccurate calculations e.g. - 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you take Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming that which one is correct but it is always a subject of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on which the baby separates from the body of mother, or the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes her first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a subject of great discussion among astrologers. 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. So it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from atomic clock. 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon the accuracy of latitude. 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of ascendant we will find few more points like above. For example there is again confusion which type of sunrise should be taken for astrological calculations. Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I think this list is sufficient to tell that there can be many reasons for the difference in calculation of ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology is not an exact science due to difference of opinion on some very fundamental issues. We must be a little open in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself doing some great blunders] Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he has adjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is no guarantee whether it will fit in the framework of traditional or any other branch of astrology or not. Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that he has never got any prediction for here correct in the past. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer, this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself and other astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has got it right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji is very good in this feedback-based astrology.] You might be knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (of course with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) taking Virgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. Nearly all of my observations failed. If we take traditional astrology, there are few more methods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji to crosscheck her physical appearance with both the ascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she will have Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that Mercury in Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on her body. For example, she must be thin and tall (or at least no shorter than average), thin voice, a jolly nature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few other qualities that can help in differentiation. I request Gupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercury in Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do have some confusion in mind, I can try to help in the matter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations in this forum. Regards, Punit Pandey --- upadhyay_iitd <upadhyay_iitd wrote: > The birth data for the daughter of shri NC Gupta ji, > posted here by > him, is > Date of birth : Sept 2,1975 > Time of birth : 9:22 am {ist} > Place of birth: Gurgaon {77E02;28N28} > > I assume that the time of birth must have been very > accurately noted > down by NC Gupta ji because he is an astrologer > himself. > > With this data - > Lagna is Virgo [ 29:04:35 ] > with Lahiri Ayanamsha 23:31:19 > > I double checked the Lagna both on my PC ( thro' > two programs ) and > I even manually worked it out, and it stayed at > Virgo 29:04 ie. > almost one degree in Virgo still to go. > > {A} Isn't it strange that Bhatia ji declared it > as Libra even > after his verification questions ? > > {B} Libra would begin some FOUR minutes later. > Does it mean that > the time was not noted accurately? [ not very > likely] > > {C} Since Rasi is not important for the Lal Kitab > , is the > accuracy of the Lagna also not important? > > Forgive me for my observations, > > with regards > > upadhyay > > > > SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2003 Report Share Posted June 19, 2003 Upadhyay ji, I had exactly the same feeling - I also worked with two different computer programs and also checked the almanac and got exactly the same results as you did (for the lagna.) However, with that lagna, the horoscope did not match. The next best thing was to try the Libra lagna, which moves each planet by one house. Most of the prevailing conditions match with the Libra lagna (which moved Mars+Ketu into the eighth, Jupiter to the seventh and Sun and Venus to the eleventh houses..etc.) are indicating their characteristics (through questions asked)corresponding to these houses. I've realized in the last few days that Gupta Ji is himself into astrology. But he has also mentioned in his latest Email to this group that he has never been able to get an accurate reading from the Virgo (lagna) horoscope. My personal belief is that if something doesn't work, then alternatives have to be looked into, regardless of how elegant the thought process behind it (the nonworking concept) may be. (I being a software developer know this - sometimes elegant and smart looking algorithms don't work well when the "rubber meets the road.") With due respect to the mathematical part of astrology, if Virgo doesn't work, then try Libra when the time difference between lagna changes is very small. The 1941 edition of LalKitab, at the top of the second page, advises you to first check the accuracy of the horoscope and recommends the method that I've adopted by illustrating it on the last page of the book. To answer your question, "is the accuracy of lagna also not important?" my emphatic answer is that the lagna must be accurate. Not considering the sign (Rashi) is a totally different thing compared to a non accurate Lagna because the lagna fixes the position of the planets in a horoscope. Again, with due respect to Gupta Ji, he may have made a mistake while recording his daughter's birth time or, his watch may not have been accurate. You may or may not know it (depending on your age) that at that time (1974) most of us had mechanical watches the best of which, used to lose or gain a few minutes every day. As they say, "haath kangan ko aarsee kyaa" - if the Libra lagna turns out to be accurate (I'm very positive that it is) and the remedial measures work to Gupta Ji's advantage, I'll be happier than him, believe me; I'll have done my duty towards someone's welfare. Rest is in God's hands. I thank you for your interest and inquisitiveness. Respectfully, Rajinder Bhatia upadhyay_iitd <upadhyay_iitd wrote: The birth data for the daughter of shri NC Gupta ji, posted here by him, isDate of birth : Sept 2,1975Time of birth : 9:22 am {ist}Place of birth: Gurgaon {77E02;28N28}I assume that the time of birth must have been very accurately noted down by NC Gupta ji because he is an astrologer himself.With this data -Lagna is Virgo [ 29:04:35 ]with Lahiri Ayanamsha 23:31:19 I double checked the Lagna both on my PC ( thro' two programs ) and I even manually worked it out, and it stayed at Virgo 29:04 ie. almost one degree in Virgo still to go. {A} Isn't it strange that Bhatia ji declared it as Libra even after his verification questions ? {B} Libra would begin some FOUR minutes later. Does it mean that the time was not noted accurately? [ not very likely] {C} Since Rasi is not important for the Lal Kitab , is the accuracy of the Lagna also not important?Forgive me for my observations,with regardsupadhyay SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Dear punit ji, Thanks for the response, I too have a few observations. 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you take Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming that which one is correct but it is always a subject of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. [in the early 50's , during the leadership of Nehru ji , a national committee of then known astrologers was constituted to form the Rashtriya Panchang. This committee unanimously accepted the Chitra Pakchhiya Ayanamsha as the most authentic..now known as Lahiri ayanamsha...not because he discovered it.. but because he was the first person to print ephemeris based on this ayanamsha. Since all the learned astrologers then had accepted Chitra Pakchhiya ayanamsha as the most accurate I tend to go by it instead of Raman or KP paddhati] 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on which the baby separates from the body of mother, or the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes her first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a subject of great discussion among astrologers. [since astrology is a science of planetary influences on the living beings it is logical to believe that the time of exposure to these influences should be accepted as the correct time of birth...and that is the moment the child separates and not when he cries or the umbilical cord is cut. ] 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. So it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from atomic clock. [sure, I agree] 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon the accuracy of latitude. [Yes, it is either geocentric or heliocentric. The world over, the convention is to accept geocentric longitudes of the planets under both the traditions ... Niryan or Sayan ] 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of ascendant we will find few more points like above. For example there is again confusion which type of sunrise should be taken for astrological calculations. [in the vedic system surya darshan , the first sighting of the sun is the sunrise... ie when the upper edge of the sun emerges at the horizon] Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I think this list is sufficient to tell that there can be many reasons for the difference in calculation of ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology is not an exact science due to difference of opinion on some very fundamental issues. We must be a little open in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself doing some great blunders] [i am afraid I can't agree. Astrology is as accurate a science as any other known branch of knowledge depending on how qualified or experienced the practitioner is. If a medicine prescribed by a qualified [ degree holding ] doctor doesn't work, it doesn't mean that we assume the medical knowledge to be nonscientific . All we can assume is that the doctor was not competent . Amongst astrologers, unfortunately, there are more incompetent astrologers than those who are really learned, experienced and with intuition.] Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he has adjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is no guarantee whether it will fit in the framework of traditional or any other branch of astrology or not. [i am studying Lal Kitab these days... at least to my knowledge..there is no such thing as Lal Kitab ayanamsha ] Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that he has never got any prediction for here correct in the past. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer, this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself and other astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has got it right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji is very good in this feedback-based astrology.] You might be knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (of course with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) taking Virgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. Nearly all of my observations failed. If we take traditional astrology, there are few more methods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji to crosscheck her physical appearance with both the ascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she will have Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that Mercury in Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on her body. For example, she must be thin and tall (or at least no shorter than average), thin voice, a jolly nature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few other qualities that can help in differentiation. I request Gupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercury in Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do have some confusion in mind, I can try to help in the matter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations in this forum. lalkitab , Punit Pandey <pandeypunit> wrote: > Dear Upadhyay Ji, > > Few days back I had posted one mail raising the same > issue in some other forum and it received a lot of > attention. According to that post there can be lot of > sources of inaccurate calculations e.g. - > > 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you take > Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will > get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming > that which one is correct but it is always a subject > of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. > > 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on > which the baby separates from the body of mother, or > the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes her > first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a subject > of great discussion among astrologers. > > 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. So > it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even > my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from > atomic clock. > > 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic > latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place > of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon the > accuracy of latitude. > > 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of > ascendant we will find few more points like above. For > example there is again confusion which type of sunrise > should be taken for astrological calculations. > > Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I think > this list is sufficient to tell that there can be many > reasons for the difference in calculation of > ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology is > not an exact science due to difference of opinion on > some very fundamental issues. We must be a little open > in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where > sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always > keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself > doing some great blunders] > > Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he has > adjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is no > guarantee whether it will fit in the framework of > traditional or any other branch of astrology or not. > Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that he > has never got any prediction for here correct in the > past. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer, > this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself and > other astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has got > it right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji is > very good in this feedback-based astrology.] You might > be knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (of > course with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) taking > Virgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. Nearly > all of my observations failed. > > If we take traditional astrology, there are few more > methods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji to > crosscheck her physical appearance with both the > ascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she will > have Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that Mercury > in Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on her > body. For example, she must be thin and tall (or at > least no shorter than average), thin voice, a jolly > nature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few other > qualities that can help in differentiation. I request > Gupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercury > in Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do have > some confusion in mind, I can try to help in the > matter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations in > this forum. > > Regards, > > Punit Pandey > > --- upadhyay_iitd <upadhyay_iitd> wrote: > > The birth data for the daughter of shri NC Gupta ji, > > posted here by > > him, is > > Date of birth : Sept 2,1975 > > Time of birth : 9:22 am {ist} > > Place of birth: Gurgaon {77E02;28N28} > > > > I assume that the time of birth must have been very > > accurately noted > > down by NC Gupta ji because he is an astrologer > > himself. > > > > With this data - > > Lagna is Virgo [ 29:04:35 ] > > with Lahiri Ayanamsha 23:31:19 > > > > I double checked the Lagna both on my PC ( thro' > > two programs ) and > > I even manually worked it out, and it stayed at > > Virgo 29:04 ie. > > almost one degree in Virgo still to go. > > > > {A} Isn't it strange that Bhatia ji declared it > > as Libra even > > after his verification questions ? > > > > {B} Libra would begin some FOUR minutes later. > > Does it mean that > > the time was not noted accurately? [ not very > > likely] > > > > {C} Since Rasi is not important for the Lal Kitab > > , is the > > accuracy of the Lagna also not important? > > > > Forgive me for my observations, > > > > with regards > > > > upadhyay > > > > > > > > > > > > > SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Dear Upadhyay Ji, When I was posting my last message, I was very sure that it is going to get some great responses like yours. I have few of mine observations too and putting them in bold letters. Dear punit ji, Thanks for the response, I too have a few observations. 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you takeRaman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you willget Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not clamingthat which one is correct but it is always a subjectof discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa.[in the early 50's , during the leadership of Nehru ji , a national committee of then known astrologers wasconstituted to form the Rashtriya Panchang. Thiscommittee unanimously accepted the Chitra PakchhiyaAyanamsha as the most authentic..now known asLahiri ayanamsha...not because he discovered it.. butbecause he was the first person to print ephemerisbased on this ayanamsha. Since all the learned astrologersthen had accepted Chitra Pakchhiya ayanamsha asthe most accurate I tend to go by it instead of Raman orKP paddhati] I am aware of that committee. But I am sure that you will accept that there are at least few astrologers taking Ayanamsa other than that of Mr. Lahiri. If you take some great astrologer's of last century (I regard Mr. K. S. Krishnamurthy and Mr. B.V. Raman in them), you will find that all of them were not satisfied with Lahiri Ayanamsa even after that committee. I don't think that those all were incompetent astrologers. I have great respect for them. Again I am not saying that Lahiri in not correct one. I am just saying that there are astrologers taking other Ayanamsas. I am into the business of astrology softwares and due to that experience I can say that there are many-many astrologers demanding different Ayanamsas and knowing them it is difficult to call them incompetent. That is why you will find option for customizing ayanamsa in nearly all good astrology softwares. In our case if we take Raman's Ayanamsa we will get Libra Ascendant. 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one onwhich the baby separates from the body of mother, orthe one when she weeps, or the one when she takes herfirst breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a subjectof great discussion among astrologers. [since astrology is a science of planetary influenceson the living beings it is logical to believe that thetime of exposure to these influences should be acceptedas the correct time of birth...and that is the momentthe child separates and not when he cries or the umbilicalcord is cut. ] It is definitely your opinion that might be right or wrong. I just wanted to tell that there is difference of opinion among astrologers. 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. Soit might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally evenmy computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds fromatomic clock. [sure, I agree]4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographiclatitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in placeof other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon theaccuracy of latitude. [Yes, it is either geocentric or heliocentric.The world over, the convention is to acceptgeocentric longitudes of the planets under both the traditions ... Niryan or Sayan ] I was not talking about the geocentric or heliocentric longitudes not geocentric or geographic latitudes. Although normally we take geographic latitudes (based on atlases) for calculations but few astrologers opines that geocentric latitudes are more accurate are the earth is not exactly spherically shaped. 5. If we will go to astronomical definition ofascendant we will find few more points like above. Forexample there is again confusion which type of sunriseshould be taken for astrological calculations. [in the vedic system surya darshan , the first sightingof the sun is the sunrise... ie when the upper edgeof the sun emerges at the horizon] But again there are controversies. Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I thinkthis list is sufficient to tell that there can be manyreasons for the difference in calculation ofascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology isnot an exact science due to difference of opinion onsome very fundamental issues. We must be a little openin this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer wheresub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I alwayskeep above points in mind and sometimes save myselfdoing some great blunders][i am afraid I can't agree. Astrology is asaccurate a science as any other knownbranch of knowledge depending onhow qualified or experienced the practitioneris. If a medicine prescribed by a qualified [ degree holding ] doctor doesn't work, it doesn'tmean that we assume the medical knowledge to benonscientific . All we can assume is that the doctorwas not competent . Amongst astrologers, unfortunately,there are more incompetent astrologers than thosewho are really learned, experienced and with intuition.]Astrologer/ Doctor debate is an old one. Astrologers always love to compare themselves with doctors. And if we started discussing on this topic we will lose the direction of our discussion. Also regarding intuition, I request you to read my tread on this topic in "vedic astrology." Also I can't agree with you. I accept that I have limited knowledge/ experience in this field of astrology I have my own opinion. I always believe that there are always some possibly of uncertainty. That is why there is no law in astrology that is 100% fool proof. It is only reason computers cannot guarantee even a single prediction accurate. [Yes, I accept there are other reasons for it, take it just as an example] Finally, one very important point. If we take KP Cuspal division (instead of Bhava Madhya Chakra) we get exactly the same chart as we get taking Libra as Ascendant. So if you are really going to experiment with some other house divisions, please add KP (Placidus) house division in the list. In my personal experience, KP System and Lal Kitab pays more importance to the house position of planet than the traditional astrology that's why I am suggesting you KP house division. I think it is difficult to elaborate this point in this e-mail but I am long thinking to write an article on this similarity of Lal Kitab and KP System. Hope you will see this article in some magazine in near future. I started learning astrology with KP System. KP experts say that they can predict even about each seconds. I have seen some marvelous predictions about timing in my life. Even then I believe in this uncertain nature of astrology. Due to this uncertain nature there are different Ayanamsa systems, different house division systems that affects the basis of astrology. For example if we cast the same horoscope with Simple traditional method, Sripati House division method or KP Cuapal method, you will get three different charts. Again I don't say which one is right or wrong but one thing is sure that there is difference of opinion. Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he hasadjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is noguarantee whether it will fit in the framework oftraditional or any other branch of astrology or not. [i am studying Lal Kitab these days... at leastto my knowledge..there is no such thing asLal Kitab ayanamsha ] Pardon, my mistake in writing. Please read Ascendant in place of Ayanamsa. Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that hehas never got any prediction for here correct in thepast. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer,this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself andother astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has gotit right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji isvery good in this feedback-based astrology.] You mightbe knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (ofcourse with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) takingVirgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. Nearlyall of my observations failed. If we take traditional astrology, there are few moremethods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji tocrosscheck her physical appearance with both theascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she willhave Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that Mercuryin Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on herbody. For example, she must be thin and tall (or atleast no shorter than average), thin voice, a jollynature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few otherqualities that can help in differentiation. I requestGupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercuryin Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do havesome confusion in mind, I can try to help in thematter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations inthis forum. If would be discussing this in some other group with more members, I am sure this would be a great thread for discussion. I am sure that I am not very clear in above reply, as I have lot to say. Another limitation is my expression power in English language. Due to that sometimes my language might seem a little blunt but please don't take that intentional. Regards, Punit Pandey--- upadhyay_iitd <upadhyay_iitd wrote: > Dear punit ji, > Thanks for the response, I too have a few > observations. > > > 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you > take > Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will > get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming > that which one is correct but it is always a subject > of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. > > [in the early 50's , during the leadership of Nehru > ji , > a national committee of then known astrologers was > constituted to form the Rashtriya Panchang. This > committee unanimously accepted the Chitra Pakchhiya > Ayanamsha as the most authentic..now known as > Lahiri ayanamsha...not because he discovered it.. > but > because he was the first person to print ephemeris > based on this ayanamsha. Since all the learned > astrologers > then had accepted Chitra Pakchhiya ayanamsha as > the most accurate I tend to go by it instead of > Raman or > KP paddhati] > > > 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on > which the baby separates from the body of mother, or > the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes > her > first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a > subject > of great discussion among astrologers. > > [since astrology is a science of planetary > influences > on the living beings it is logical to believe that > the > time of exposure to these influences should be > accepted > as the correct time of birth...and that is the > moment > the child separates and not when he cries or the > umbilical > cord is cut. ] > > 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. > So > it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even > my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from > atomic clock. > > [sure, I agree] > > 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic > latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place > of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon > the > accuracy of latitude. > > [Yes, it is either geocentric or heliocentric. > The world over, the convention is to accept > geocentric longitudes of the planets under both > the traditions ... Niryan or Sayan ] > > > 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of > ascendant we will find few more points like above. > For > example there is again confusion which type of > sunrise > should be taken for astrological calculations. > > [in the vedic system surya darshan , the first > sighting > of the sun is the sunrise... ie when the upper edge > of the sun emerges at the horizon] > > Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I > think > this list is sufficient to tell that there can be > many > reasons for the difference in calculation of > ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology > is > not an exact science due to difference of opinion on > some very fundamental issues. We must be a little > open > in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where > sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always > keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself > doing some great blunders] > > [i am afraid I can't agree. Astrology is as > accurate a science as any other known > branch of knowledge depending on > how qualified or experienced the practitioner > is. If a medicine prescribed by a qualified > [ degree holding ] doctor doesn't work, it doesn't > mean that we assume the medical knowledge to be > nonscientific . All we can assume is that the doctor > was not competent . Amongst astrologers, > unfortunately, > there are more incompetent astrologers than those > who are really learned, experienced and with > intuition.] > > > Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he has > adjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is no > guarantee whether it will fit in the framework of > traditional or any other branch of astrology or not. > > [i am studying Lal Kitab these days... at least > to my knowledge..there is no such thing as > Lal Kitab ayanamsha ] > > Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that > he > has never got any prediction for here correct in the > past. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer, > this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself and > other astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has got > it right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji > is > very good in this feedback-based astrology.] You > might > be knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (of > course with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) > taking > Virgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. > Nearly > all of my observations failed. > > If we take traditional astrology, there are few more > methods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji to > crosscheck her physical appearance with both the > ascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she will > have Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that > Mercury > in Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on her > body. For example, she must be thin and tall (or at > least no shorter than average), thin voice, a jolly > nature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few other > qualities that can help in differentiation. I > request > Gupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercury > in Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do have > some confusion in mind, I can try to help in the > matter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations > in > this forum. > > > > > > > > > > > lalkitab , Punit Pandey > <pandeypunit> > wrote: > > Dear Upadhyay Ji, > > > > Few days back I had posted one mail raising the > same > > issue in some other forum and it received a lot of > > attention. According to that post there can be lot > of > > sources of inaccurate calculations e.g. - > > > > 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you > take > > Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you > will > > get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming > > that which one is correct but it is always a > subject > > of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) > Ayanamsa. > > > > 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one > on > > which the baby separates from the body of mother, > or > > the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes > her > > first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a > subject > > of great discussion among astrologers. > > > > 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. > So > > it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally > even > === message truncated === SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Dear All, I thank you all for spending time on my daughter's horoscope. My daughter's horoscope confuses me to no end. I have been trying various systems, but still was unable to answer. Her physical appearance is like this - 1. As a child was extremely thin, to the point of famished. Was good- looking with large expressive eyes and pointed nose. Had a loud laugh and was a happy - go- lucky child. 2. After the age of 13-14, she was given wrong medication and she constantly put on weight. She became huge. 3. Untill, three-fours back with right diet and exercise, she had shed a lot of weight and is now normal, not thin though. 4. Was quite interested in writing and had her articles published in children's magazines. Was a bright child and student. Wanted to pursue a career in medicine but fate led her to Journalism and Advertising. And now she works with a marketing communications department of a software company.However, her progress is not as good as it should be. Faces career problems off and on. 5. Is quite religious but gets depressed now at times 5. Has an elder sister, married with children - a boy and a girl. 6. I, her father, retired from a high position in a public sector company. Had a bypass surgery in Jan, 2002. Hope this helps in undertsnding some of the issues of Lagna. Thanks & Regards, NC Gupta lalkitab , " upadhyay_iitd " <upadhyay_iitd> wrote: > Dear punit ji, > Thanks for the response, I too have a few observations. > > > 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you take > Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will > get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming > that which one is correct but it is always a subject > of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. > > [in the early 50's , during the leadership of Nehru ji , > a national committee of then known astrologers was > constituted to form the Rashtriya Panchang. This > committee unanimously accepted the Chitra Pakchhiya > Ayanamsha as the most authentic..now known as > Lahiri ayanamsha...not because he discovered it.. but > because he was the first person to print ephemeris > based on this ayanamsha. Since all the learned astrologers > then had accepted Chitra Pakchhiya ayanamsha as > the most accurate I tend to go by it instead of Raman or > KP paddhati] > > > 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on > which the baby separates from the body of mother, or > the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes her > first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a subject > of great discussion among astrologers. > > [since astrology is a science of planetary influences > on the living beings it is logical to believe that the > time of exposure to these influences should be accepted > as the correct time of birth...and that is the moment > the child separates and not when he cries or the umbilical > cord is cut. ] > > 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. So > it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even > my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from > atomic clock. > > [sure, I agree] > > 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic > latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place > of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon the > accuracy of latitude. > > [Yes, it is either geocentric or heliocentric. > The world over, the convention is to accept > geocentric longitudes of the planets under both > the traditions ... Niryan or Sayan ] > > > 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of > ascendant we will find few more points like above. For > example there is again confusion which type of sunrise > should be taken for astrological calculations. > > [in the vedic system surya darshan , the first sighting > of the sun is the sunrise... ie when the upper edge > of the sun emerges at the horizon] > > Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I think > this list is sufficient to tell that there can be many > reasons for the difference in calculation of > ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology is > not an exact science due to difference of opinion on > some very fundamental issues. We must be a little open > in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where > sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always > keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself > doing some great blunders] > > [i am afraid I can't agree. Astrology is as > accurate a science as any other known > branch of knowledge depending on > how qualified or experienced the practitioner > is. If a medicine prescribed by a qualified > [ degree holding ] doctor doesn't work, it doesn't > mean that we assume the medical knowledge to be > nonscientific . All we can assume is that the doctor > was not competent . Amongst astrologers, unfortunately, > there are more incompetent astrologers than those > who are really learned, experienced and with intuition.] > > > Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he has > adjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is no > guarantee whether it will fit in the framework of > traditional or any other branch of astrology or not. > > [i am studying Lal Kitab these days... at least > to my knowledge..there is no such thing as > Lal Kitab ayanamsha ] > > Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that he > has never got any prediction for here correct in the > past. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer, > this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself and > other astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has got > it right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji is > very good in this feedback-based astrology.] You might > be knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (of > course with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) taking > Virgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. Nearly > all of my observations failed. > > If we take traditional astrology, there are few more > methods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji to > crosscheck her physical appearance with both the > ascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she will > have Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that Mercury > in Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on her > body. For example, she must be thin and tall (or at > least no shorter than average), thin voice, a jolly > nature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few other > qualities that can help in differentiation. I request > Gupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercury > in Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do have > some confusion in mind, I can try to help in the > matter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations in > this forum. > > > > lalkitab , Punit Pandey <pandeypunit> > wrote: > > Dear Upadhyay Ji, > > > > Few days back I had posted one mail raising the same > > issue in some other forum and it received a lot of > > attention. According to that post there can be lot of > > sources of inaccurate calculations e.g. - > > > > 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you take > > Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will > > get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming > > that which one is correct but it is always a subject > > of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. > > > > 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on > > which the baby separates from the body of mother, or > > the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes her > > first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a subject > > of great discussion among astrologers. > > > > 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. So > > it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even > > my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from > > atomic clock. > > > > 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic > > latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place > > of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon the > > accuracy of latitude. > > > > 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of > > ascendant we will find few more points like above. For > > example there is again confusion which type of sunrise > > should be taken for astrological calculations. > > > > Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I think > > this list is sufficient to tell that there can be many > > reasons for the difference in calculation of > > ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology is > > not an exact science due to difference of opinion on > > some very fundamental issues. We must be a little open > > in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where > > sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always > > keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself > > doing some great blunders] > > > > Bhatia Ji has specifically mentioned that he has > > adjusted Ayanamsa as per Lal Kitab. So there is no > > guarantee whether it will fit in the framework of > > traditional or any other branch of astrology or not. > > Another point is, Gupta Ji was himself telling that he > > has never got any prediction for here correct in the > > past. Although Gupta Ji is himself is an astrologer, > > this horoscope was always a puzzle for himself and > > other astrologers. So I guess that Bhatia Ji has got > > it right especially after verification. [bhatia Ji is > > very good in this feedback-based astrology.] You might > > be knowing that I tried to verify the horoscope (of > > course with my limited knowledge of Lal Kitab) taking > > Virgo as ascendant but unable to get it right. Nearly > > all of my observations failed. > > > > If we take traditional astrology, there are few more > > methods to crosscheck. I want to suggest Gupta Ji to > > crosscheck her physical appearance with both the > > ascendants. If we take Virgo as ascendant she will > > have Mercury in ascendant. And I am sure that Mercury > > in Virgo will show its characteristics boldly on her > > body. For example, she must be thin and tall (or at > > least no shorter than average), thin voice, a jolly > > nature, thin eyebrows etc. etc. There are few other > > qualities that can help in differentiation. I request > > Gupta Ji to check these qualities (Virgo and Mercury > > in Ascendant) and let us know. If Gupta Ji do have > > some confusion in mind, I can try to help in the > > matter. I request Gupta Ji to post his observations in > > this forum. > > > > Regards, > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > --- upadhyay_iitd <upadhyay_iitd> wrote: > > > The birth data for the daughter of shri NC Gupta ji, > > > posted here by > > > him, is > > > Date of birth : Sept 2,1975 > > > Time of birth : 9:22 am {ist} > > > Place of birth: Gurgaon {77E02;28N28} > > > > > > I assume that the time of birth must have been very > > > accurately noted > > > down by NC Gupta ji because he is an astrologer > > > himself. > > > > > > With this data - > > > Lagna is Virgo [ 29:04:35 ] > > > with Lahiri Ayanamsha 23:31:19 > > > > > > I double checked the Lagna both on my PC ( thro' > > > two programs ) and > > > I even manually worked it out, and it stayed at > > > Virgo 29:04 ie. > > > almost one degree in Virgo still to go. > > > > > > {A} Isn't it strange that Bhatia ji declared it > > > as Libra even > > > after his verification questions ? > > > > > > {B} Libra would begin some FOUR minutes later. > > > Does it mean that > > > the time was not noted accurately? [ not very > > > likely] > > > > > > {C} Since Rasi is not important for the Lal Kitab > > > , is the > > > accuracy of the Lagna also not important? > > > > > > Forgive me for my observations, > > > > > > with regards > > > > > > upadhyay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > > http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 Dear Mr Punit/Mr Upadhyaya, A good amount of discussions on PE (Ayanansa)> In this connection, I wd like to say since long we have been prolonged with this disputes though many seers of modern astrologers and their approach in this regard hardly earned any result. It may not be out of place to mention here though,though we have been striving hard to attain sound scientific relevence of this ancient study backed with good amount of support of software technology, we feel, we are lacking in solution of some of some prolonged disputes in basic and vital tool for the resources of upliftment of this ancient study ie PE, for example, it really plays a vital role in houring events calculated thro'astro-time-culture a recently developed logical method in astrology thro'indepth research. In my observation, many more things could have been detected thro'the use of acurate PE, if we really get a solution to this. Your comments on the matter please. Thanks, P K Tripathy. --- Punit Pandey <pandeypunit wrote: > Dear Upadhyay Ji, > When I was posting my last message, I was very sure > that it is going to get some great responses like > yours. I have few of mine observations too and > putting them in bold letters. > > > > > > Dear punit ji, > Thanks for the response, I too have a few > observations. > > 1. Different Ayanamsa System. For example if you > take > Raman Ayanamsa in place of Lahiri Ayanamsa, you will > get Libra as ascendant not Virgo. I am not claming > that which one is correct but it is always a subject > of discussion. Even there is zero (sayan) Ayanamsa. > > [in the early 50's , during the leadership of Nehru > ji , > a national committee of then known astrologers was > constituted to form the Rashtriya Panchang. This > committee unanimously accepted the Chitra Pakchhiya > Ayanamsha as the most authentic..now known as > Lahiri ayanamsha...not because he discovered it.. > but > because he was the first person to print ephemeris > based on this ayanamsha. Since all the learned > astrologers > then had accepted Chitra Pakchhiya ayanamsha as > the most accurate I tend to go by it instead of > Raman or > KP paddhati] > > > > I am aware of that committee. But I am sure that you > will accept that there are at least few astrologers > taking Ayanamsa other than that of Mr. Lahiri. If > you take some great astrologer's of last century (I > regard Mr. K. S. Krishnamurthy and Mr. B.V. Raman in > them), you will find that all of them were not > satisfied with Lahiri Ayanamsa even after that > committee. I don't think that those all were > incompetent astrologers. I have great respect for > them. > > Again I am not saying that Lahiri in not correct > one. I am just saying that there are astrologers > taking other Ayanamsas. I am into the business of > astrology softwares and due to that experience I can > say that there are many-many astrologers demanding > different Ayanamsas and knowing them it is difficult > to call them incompetent. That is why you will find > option for customizing ayanamsa in nearly all good > astrology softwares. In our case if we take Raman's > Ayanamsa we will get Libra Ascendant. > > 2. Which time of birth should be taken - the one on > which the baby separates from the body of mother, or > the one when she weeps, or the one when she takes > her > first breathe etc. etc. Again this is always a > subject > of great discussion among astrologers. > > [since astrology is a science of planetary > influences > on the living beings it is logical to believe that > the > time of exposure to these influences should be > accepted > as the correct time of birth...and that is the > moment > the child separates and not when he cries or the > umbilical > cord is cut. ] > > > > It is definitely your opinion that might be right or > wrong. I just wanted to tell that there is > difference of opinion among astrologers. > > > 3. We don't have very accurate clocks at our home. > So > it might lead to inaccurate ascendant. Normally even > my computer clock varies around 30-60 seconds from > atomic clock. > > [sure, I agree] > > 4. Should we take geocentric latitude or geographic > latitude? Ascendant changes with taking one in place > of other. Accuracy of ascendants also depends upon > the > accuracy of latitude. > > [Yes, it is either geocentric or heliocentric. > The world over, the convention is to accept > geocentric longitudes of the planets under both > the traditions ... Niryan or Sayan ] > > > > I was not talking about the geocentric or > heliocentric longitudes not geocentric or geographic > latitudes. Although normally we take geographic > latitudes (based on atlases) for calculations but > few astrologers opines that geocentric latitudes are > more accurate are the earth is not exactly > spherically shaped. > > 5. If we will go to astronomical definition of > ascendant we will find few more points like above. > For > example there is again confusion which type of > sunrise > should be taken for astrological calculations. > > [in the vedic system surya darshan , the first > sighting > of the sun is the sunrise... ie when the upper edge > of the sun emerges at the horizon] > > > > But again there are controversies. > > Defiantly I will be forgetting some points but I > think > this list is sufficient to tell that there can be > many > reasons for the difference in calculation of > ascendant. What I want to tell here that astrology > is > not an exact science due to difference of opinion on > some very fundamental issues. We must be a little > open > in this matter. [i myself am a KP astrologer where > sub-sub lord changes roughly in 30 seconds. I always > keep above points in mind and sometimes save myself > doing some great blunders] > > [i am afraid I can't agree. Astrology is as > accurate a science as any other known > branch of knowledge depending on > how qualified or experienced the practitioner > is. If a medicine prescribed by a qualified > [ degree holding ] doctor doesn't work, it doesn't > mean that we assume the medical knowledge to be > nonscientific . All we can assume is that the doctor > was not competent . Amongst astrologers, > unfortunately, > there are more incompetent astrologers than those > who are really learned, experienced and with > intuition.] > > Astrologer/ Doctor debate is an old one. Astrologers > always love to compare themselves with doctors. And > if we started discussing on this topic we will lose > the direction of our discussion. Also regarding > intuition, I request you to read my tread on this > topic in " vedic astrology. " > > > > Also I can't agree with you. I accept that I have > limited knowledge/ experience in this field of > astrology I have my own opinion. I always believe > that there are always some possibly of uncertainty. > That is why there is no law in astrology that is > 100% fool proof. It is only reason computers cannot > guarantee even a single prediction accurate. [Yes, I > accept there are other reasons for it, take it just > as an example] > > > > Finally, one very important point. If we take KP > Cuspal division (instead of Bhava Madhya Chakra) we > get exactly the same chart as we get taking Libra as > Ascendant. So if you are really going to experiment > with some other house divisions, please add KP > (Placidus) house division in the list. > > > > In my personal experience, KP System and Lal Kitab > pays more importance to the house position of planet > than the traditional astrology that's why I am > suggesting you KP house division. I think it is > difficult to elaborate this point in this e-mail but > I am long thinking to write an article on this > similarity of Lal Kitab and KP System. Hope you will > see this article in some magazine in near future. > > === message truncated === SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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