Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Dear Yogesh Rao Lajmi, Yogesh Rao Lajmi 1. I agree with you as mentioned by B V Raman, " It is in the prior application of these principles and prediction of events to happen in future that the real value of astrology lies " . (Editorial, Dec 1977 Astrological Magazine) 2. However, usually research can be done only as a post-mortem study. 3. Referring the example " Can I expect Dowry?', p. 255, KP Reader VI, 1978 (already mentioned in Msg # ), it may be predicted that the native will receive the most satisfactory dowry if the star lord of the 11th is exalted, even though the sublord of 11th is debilitated; less dowry if Stl is debilitated, even though Sbl is exalted. (like Sbl is small packet and Stl is diamond in that small packet.) Best regards, tw , Yogesh Rao Lajmi <lyrastro1> wrote: > Dear Ron, > It does,Ron...(even if you keep insisting)...just ponder over... > Had any one ever predicted,for sure, that Shirley will become a star...during so and so period ...etc.,before- hand,astrologically ? > Or,are we still continuing to,as in the past, attribute " properties " in an effort to rationalise exaltation, " after the event ? " ! > Accurate Prognostication,Ron...that's the game...astrology is all about,and that's the only acid test, for the unsurpassed efficacy of a particular system of astrology... > Simply saying ... " one day you will become a famous person... " ,is not enough...a good system should be able to correctly say, when,and during which period one will become world-famous,and in what field... > Don't you agree Ron,that,in this direction,K.P.,is extremely accurate,consistently,and very simple,and a great improvement,as compared to any other known system,so far...? ! > Yours sincerely, > lyrastro1 > GOOD LUCK ! > > > > rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote: > > Yogesh, > > I don't think it strengthens your case that debilitation and > exaltation have little or no significant role to play. Surely, > if as I suspect that these conditions depict an abnormality, > this needs to be examined because it is going to be very > important in the life of the native. > > Let's have a look at one case that comes to mind. This is > Shirley Temple Black child star of the 1930s and later diplomat > to a number of countries. Shirley in her early years would have > been possibly the best know and loved person in the world. > She has a superb chart, with Venus near its highest point of > exaltation conjunct Jupiter in its own sign, both on the cusp of > the 5th house of entertainment. These were also conjunct 11th > house Lord Mercury. In addition Sun is at its highest point of > exaltation; and Rahu is exalted in Venus sign Taurus in the 7th > house, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio in the 1st. Also Jupiter and > Mercury are Vargottama. > > Shirley's data is: > DOB 23 April 1928 > 9:00 pm, PST +8:00 > Santa Monica, California > USA > 34N1'10 " 118W29'25 > > I suspect that birth time is slightly later than the published > details (not much) ; but for the time being let's stick to the > time given as it is rated AA by Astrodatabank. This makes a > difference in the subs on the house cusps but not on the > starlords, or the planets. > > Let's now have a look at KP and exaltation. Natal exalted Venus > in the same star as the highest point of exaltation, is in the > star of Mercury. Mercury is Lord of the 11th house. This > young lady's star was really shining brightly and was seen at the > very young age of 3 when she started making her 1st film on 18th > Dec 1931. Dasas were Rahu/Jupiter/Mercury. Exalted Rahu as > sole tenant of Taurus substitutes for Venus and is coupled with > powerful Jupiter (natally both in the 5th house of films and > entertainment) and Jupiter is Lord of the 5th of entertainment > and Mercury Lord of the 11th. > > It is interesting to note that of the 12 planets (including > outers) four planets were in the stars of exalted Rahu or Ketu > and another four were in star of Mercury Lord of the 11th. > > At the time of the previous Solar Eclipse on the 11th Oct 1931 > the SE point came Exactly opposition natal Venus Jupiter > conjunction. Remember Shirley has a highly exalted Sun. > So we see two (natal) exalted planets aspecting each other. At > the same time SE Jupiter comes exactly aspect to Venus Jupiter > also. Here we see exalted Natal Venus getting primed for a > major event. > > This event happened on the 18th December 1931 when transit Uranus > and Moon in exact conjunction triggered natal Venus Jupiter by > close conjunction. (note natal Uranus had been primed by an > exact transit of Rahu in the last SE) > This is what Ebertin states is the probable manifestation of > Moon/Uranus - " Sacrifices for the attainment of special aims, > help and assistance through friends, the attainment of sudden > successes, the accomplishment of a change in one's > circumstances " . All this is spot on and this Moon Uranus > transit is conjunct to the exalted Venus strong Jupiter natal > configuration. > Now we can easily relate this to an adult - but what about a 3 > year old child?. I would suggest that is solely on the > strength and condition of a fantastic Venus (ie exalted) related > to the 11th house through star lard Mercury that this quickly > propelled her to be the favorite film star in the world. > > Shirley has a great chart for astrological research. I could > point out many interesting facts, but rather than bore members > with too many details, I will just mention a couple of points > about another milestone in her life. On the 20th May 1985 > she was honored to receive a medal from the President of the > United states for " Lifetime achievement and Service to the USA > and the World " . Here we see transit Venus coming exactly > conjunct natal Venus, and transit Rahu coming exactly aspect > natal MC. As Rahu substitutes for Venus in Shirley's chart > we again see the tremendous part played by an exalted Venus > and exalted Rahu (Venus). > Her dasas for this event were Mercury Venus Sun ie. both her > exalted planets and Mercury Lord of the 11th showing recognition > of her great achievements. > > I think many astrologers would agree that the exaltations in > Shirley's chart really do need to be taken into consideration. > > > Ron Gaunt > > On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:09:58 +0000, you wrote: > > >Dear Ron, > > Doesn't it thus seem to strengthen my case, that debilitation or exaltation have little, or, no significant/measureable role to play, in predictive astrology... ? > > My friend,I have asked for concrete examples...precisely because In my own experience I have not found any measureable/quantifiable role that such planets play...(I hope I am not labouring the point.) > > I also realise that I could,however, be wrong...or have missed it completely...and that my experience is a pittance as compared to that of Parasara and the many of his stature... who abounded in the past.. > > Yours sincerely, > > lyrastro1 > > GOOD LUCK ! > > > >rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote: > > > >Yogesh, > > > >Some years ago I did a study on famous sportsmen expecting to a > >find statistically high level of exalted Mars. What I found > >surprised me, in that frequently pre eminent sportsmen in fact > >had debilitated Mars. Pondering on this I suspected that they > >had some type of weakness in a certain area, and used the > >principle of over-compensation to achieve success. > > > >In my own case I have a classical debilitated Mars, and I do have > >a Martian problem. I have always lacked physical energy ie I > >only have to push a lawn mower once across the lawn, and I feel > >as though all my energy is vacating my body. In a few minutes I > >feel as though I have run a marathon. As I matured I have > >managed better, mainly by eliminating certain foods. > >Nevertheless over the years I have compensated for bodily > >dysfunction by engaging in mental pursuits. > > > >On reflection after studying many examples I came to the > >conclusion that what exaltation and debilitation showed was a > >specific gift or inclination, lack or deficiency. In other > >words whilst the planet may function perfectly normal for most > >purposes there is one area where it is abnormal. Thinking in > >terms of KP it might be that where say Mars is significator for > >the 1st, 5th and 10th houses, it may offer excellent results to > >the 5th and 10th whilst giving poor results to the 1st. This > >presumably would be seen in the quality of the sub or by malefic > >association or aspect with reference to the 1st. ie. in KP we > >might be able to see in what area an exalted or debilitated > >planet functions best or worst. > > > >I find it interesting that in a way the author of 'Astrosecrets' > >Pt 1 page 34 comes up with something similar but more limiting > >idea than mine when he says " Ownership exaltation or debilitation > >of planets are generally known responsible to indicate the > >strength or weakness of a human body constitution from head to > >foot, but does not take the responsibility to alter the results > >to be offered, say good to bad or bad to good " . I personally > >believe that it isn't specific to bodily condition, but can be > >any area of life. The crux of the matter appears to me be that > >the planet shows a specific limited abnormality - in the normally > >accepted qualities of that planet. > > > >When I get the time I will have a look and see if I can find some > >examples that might show exaltation/debilitation in KP. > > > > > >Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > >On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:44:09 +0000, you wrote: > > > >>Dear Ron, > >> The following is being submitted,for yours and the group's serious consideration...and I invite specific examples,in your experiences, clearly illustrating the practical use, of exaltation/debilitation,in predictive K.P.astrology... > >> > >> Here's a quote from Astrosecrets & K.P., p.35... > >> > >> " To say of exaltation,ownership or debilitation,simply on the entering of a Rasi(sign) is not correct,in a sign,in a particular star,in a particular degree-minute only,as the planet moves should be reckoned for exaltation,or debilitation etc... " (italics mine) > >> > >> It is thus important to note that exaltation and debilitation has been defined in star and sub terms...and in a particular degree-minute only, as you have quoted... > >> Also,more importantly,it is clearly stated that exaltation or debilitation does not change/alter the nature of the result...in terms of being benefic or malefic...at the most,it will either hasten or slow down the result...! ! > >> > >> Therefore I wonder, " in practical terms " how much difference does this really make...and,if so, how can one measure this " accelleration and decelleration,in the number of hours/days/months..etc.. " .? > >> If these differences are not quantifiable...simply saying a planet is exalted/debilatated...and therefore...? ? (what do you suggest, we say...which is measureable/quantifiable ?) > >> > >> Hence exaltation/debilitation are recognised theoretically (?),in K.P.,but no quantifiable and practical use is given...! ? (This is my personal opinion and also born out of experience). > >> > >> I therefore feel that exaltation/debilitation are good points only to debate about...and perhaps put forward to justify a successful or failed prediction ? ? > >> > >> Personally I hold a similar view on the various " avasthas " ...of planets...as being more of an academic value...in my experience... > >> > >> As I have said earlier,astrology should be of practical use,to both,the consultant/client as well as the astrologer...and it must also felt by readers to be truly useful,in practice... > >> > >> With regards, > >> Yours sincerely, > >> lyrastro1 > >> GOOD LUCK ! > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote: > >> > >>To all members, > >> > >>I haven't yet got round to even skimming through some of the many > >>KP books I have received, so I do not know whether KP relegates > >>or ignores the question of assessing the qualities of each > >>individual planet. I would imagine that somewhere in the > >>literature this point is covered. Meanwhile I use my previous > >>learning to assess the quality of a sub and its likely outcomes. > >> > >>What I am leading to is the point made, that KP does not consider > >>exaltation and debilitation. In 'Astrosecrets & Krishnamurti > >>Padhadhati' April 2003 Edition pages 34 to 38 details when > >>exaltation and debilitation ARE considered. The gist of it > >>appears to be that they are considered when the planet is in the > >>same sub as the highest point of exaltation or debilitation. > >> > >> > >>Ron Gaunt > >> > >> > >> > >>On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:46:06 +0000, you wrote: > >> > >>>Dear Sandy, > >>> I second your suggestion...let us " keep it simple " ,for the obvious ease of access...and reduced 'navigation'...possibly required... > >>> Also, we will all operate under the k_p_group umbrella...and thus remain on an easily identifiable as well as accessible site... > >>> My use of the computer is very limited indeed,restricted to K.P., and surfing BBC,CNN and the usual Samachar ...hence my computer " skills " (if you can call them so...) are minimal...indeed. > >>> I hope the " computer experts " will bear with me... > >>> With best wishes, > >>> lyrastro1 > >>> GOOD LUCK ! > >>> > >>>Sandy Crowther <sandy@t...> wrote: > >>> > >>>Dear tw, Anant, Kanak, lyastro 1, Punit Pandey, and ALL (hopefully I didn't miss anyone), > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Thank you all very much for sharing your knowledge, experience, research, opinions, references, and comments to my (often) endless questions on KP, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to do so. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>And to my delight, some of you even threw in a few " extra " tidbits of KP information that I found extremely interesting – and matters that I was not at all aware of KP's stance on - so thanks very much for elaborating. For example, I had no idea that exaltation and debilitation were not considered in KP – that only retrogression is considered. So considerations of planets being hosted by a friend or enemy - or their compound relationships - obviously have no place in KP due to emphasis and placement of star and sub lords taking precedence. But if Vargottama IS referenced in a few of the 6 KP Readers as a viable and acceptable Rasi companion for planetary assessments in KP, specifically used for assessing planetary strength as mentioned, the Navamsa chart MUST be referenced at some level - Right? I mean, we cannot have Vargottama without Navamsa (Uh-oh – Here we go with that 4 letter word again " amsa " J). So anyway, I'm now off to do a bit of KP research myself - hopefully sometime > >>> today. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>I think we ALL need to be on the same page as far as what is and isn't an accepted part of KP to date – and then be able to back up with references in at least one of the 6 KP Readers. (Just my not so humble opinion guys J). I know as astrologers, we will always have our own style and preferences when it comes to chart analysis and delineation – which we should have – we are all individuals. But it looks to me like many things are still wide open for research – Ooohhh - I only wish there were more hours in the day. Anyway – Thanks so much again to everyone… > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>P.S. To Ron Gaunt: I think your idea of opening another KP list, is a suggestion put forth with a pioneering spirit in mind of your greatness for researching techniques to attain predictive accuracy – which you know I'm certainly ALL FOR – BUT - 7 months ago I vowed to never to another list due to time constraints – and here I am. I cannot handle another list's email at this time. J Perhaps a more viable solution (if moderator approved here on this KP list) would be to simply add a rider (or addendum) to the bottom of any chart assessment posted on this list, where an analysis has been done correctly, but a KP technique was not used in that particular part of the assessment of the chart to reach that correct result, and then clearly stating that the method used is not an accepted part of KP, just a particular technique you personally found reliably consistent for predictive purposes – like your usage of Solar Eclipses. That way it is left up to the list member to either > >>> accept or reject the technique because it is or is not KP approved, read it or not at the bottom of the email, and there is no confusion as to what is and isn't (to date) an accepted part of KP. And at the same time, we need not be silenced, as individual astrologers, for sharing a technique that is not part of KP – as long as it is in rider/attachment form. This would accommodate all minds on the list. (You and the list all know that we, as astrologers, will NEVER stop using what works for us J – even if we are silenced from sharing how we (personally) reached the correct conclusion - so this is just a suggestion to accommodate everyone under one KP forum.) > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>My 2 cents – but totally up to the Moderators of this list. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> All the Best, > >>> > >>> Sandy Crowther > >>> > >>> http://www.jupitersweb.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Dear tw853, Thank you,for acknowledging that the amount of dowry cannot be quantified...that was precisely my submission...the sub only decides,whether one will get or not...if the sublord is Jup it is large,if Sat,it will be miserly,if it is Sun,it could be gold ornaments...etc.,as per the nature of the planet...but,it also cannot quantify...more research has to be done...I have come across a couple of papers in which the author has quantified the amount to be received...but I cannot generalise,as they were only a couple of papers...in K.P. & Astrology monthly Magazine,years ago,since then, nobody has quantified...,nor has he given any explanation for this... I am for all research,but that these debilitation/exaltation, amsas,avasthas,ashtakavargas...and what have you...cannot help quantify in measureable terms,the effect to be expected... has been already experienced by me,over the years... I was only sharing my experience with members... Those who wish to disagree,are at liberty to do so,but I expect them to please cite concrete examples to support their case...and to be of value in predictive astrology... With best wishes, lyrastro1 GOOD LUCK !tw853 <tw853 wrote: Dear Yogesh Rao Lajmi,Yogesh Rao Lajmi 1. I agree with you as mentioned by B V Raman, "It is in the prior application of these principles and prediction of events to happen in future that the real value of astrology lies". (Editorial, Dec 1977 Astrological Magazine)2. However, usually research can be done only as a post-mortem study. 3. Referring the example "Can I expect Dowry?', p. 255, KP Reader VI, 1978 (already mentioned in Msg # ), it may be predicted that the native will receive the most satisfactory dowry if the star lord of the 11th is exalted, even though the sublord of 11th is debilitated; less dowry if Stl is debilitated, even though Sbl is exalted. (like Sbl is small packet and Stl is diamond in that small packet.) Best regards,tw , Yogesh Rao Lajmi <lyrastro1> wrote:> Dear Ron,> It does,Ron...(even if you keep insisting)...just ponder over...> Had any one ever predicted,for sure, that Shirley will become a star...during so and so period ...etc.,before-hand,astrologically ?> Or,are we still continuing to,as in the past, attribute "properties" in an effort to rationalise exaltation,"after the event ?" !> Accurate Prognostication,Ron...that's the game...astrology is all about,and that's the only acid test, for the unsurpassed efficacy of a particular system of astrology...> Simply saying ..."one day you will become a famous person...",is not enough...a good system should be able to correctly say, when,and during which period one will become world-famous,and in what field... > Don't you agree Ron,that,in this direction,K.P.,is extremely accurate,consistently,and very simple,and a great improvement,as compared to any other known system,so far...? !> Yours sincerely,> lyrastro1> GOOD LUCK !> > > > rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote:> > Yogesh,> > I don't think it strengthens your case that debilitation and> exaltation have little or no significant role to play. Surely,> if as I suspect that these conditions depict an abnormality,> this needs to be examined because it is going to be very> important in the life of the native.> > Let's have a look at one case that comes to mind. This is> Shirley Temple Black child star of the 1930s and later diplomat> to a number of countries. Shirley in her early years would have> been possibly the best know and loved person in the world.> She has a superb chart, with Venus near its highest point of> exaltation conjunct Jupiter in its own sign, both on the cusp of> the 5th house of entertainment. These were also conjunct 11th> house Lord Mercury. In addition Sun is at its highest point of> exaltation; and Rahu is exalted in Venus sign Taurus in the 7th> house, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio in the 1st. Also Jupiter and> Mercury are Vargottama.> > Shirley's data is:> DOB 23 April 1928 > 9:00 pm, PST +8:00> Santa Monica, California> USA> 34N1'10" 118W29'25> > I suspect that birth time is slightly later than the published> details (not much) ; but for the time being let's stick to the> time given as it is rated AA by Astrodatabank. This makes a> difference in the subs on the house cusps but not on the> starlords, or the planets.> > Let's now have a look at KP and exaltation. Natal exalted Venus> in the same star as the highest point of exaltation, is in the> star of Mercury. Mercury is Lord of the 11th house. This> young lady's star was really shining brightly and was seen at the> very young age of 3 when she started making her 1st film on 18th> Dec 1931. Dasas were Rahu/Jupiter/Mercury. Exalted Rahu as> sole tenant of Taurus substitutes for Venus and is coupled with> powerful Jupiter (natally both in the 5th house of films and> entertainment) and Jupiter is Lord of the 5th of entertainment> and Mercury Lord of the 11th.> > It is interesting to note that of the 12 planets (including> outers) four planets were in the stars of exalted Rahu or Ketu> and another four were in star of Mercury Lord of the 11th.> > At the time of the previous Solar Eclipse on the 11th Oct 1931> the SE point came Exactly opposition natal Venus Jupiter> conjunction. Remember Shirley has a highly exalted Sun.> So we see two (natal) exalted planets aspecting each other. At> the same time SE Jupiter comes exactly aspect to Venus Jupiter> also. Here we see exalted Natal Venus getting primed for a> major event.> > This event happened on the 18th December 1931 when transit Uranus> and Moon in exact conjunction triggered natal Venus Jupiter by> close conjunction. (note natal Uranus had been primed by an> exact transit of Rahu in the last SE)> This is what Ebertin states is the probable manifestation of> Moon/Uranus - "Sacrifices for the attainment of special aims,> help and assistance through friends, the attainment of sudden> successes, the accomplishment of a change in one's> circumstances". All this is spot on and this Moon Uranus> transit is conjunct to the exalted Venus strong Jupiter natal> configuration. > Now we can easily relate this to an adult - but what about a 3> year old child?. I would suggest that is solely on the> strength and condition of a fantastic Venus (ie exalted) related> to the 11th house through star lard Mercury that this quickly> propelled her to be the favorite film star in the world.> > Shirley has a great chart for astrological research. I could> point out many interesting facts, but rather than bore members> with too many details, I will just mention a couple of points> about another milestone in her life. On the 20th May 1985> she was honored to receive a medal from the President of the> United states for "Lifetime achievement and Service to the USA> and the World". Here we see transit Venus coming exactly> conjunct natal Venus, and transit Rahu coming exactly aspect> natal MC. As Rahu substitutes for Venus in Shirley's chart > we again see the tremendous part played by an exalted Venus> and exalted Rahu (Venus).> Her dasas for this event were Mercury Venus Sun ie. both her> exalted planets and Mercury Lord of the 11th showing recognition> of her great achievements. > > I think many astrologers would agree that the exaltations in> Shirley's chart really do need to be taken into consideration.> > > Ron Gaunt> > > > > > > > > On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:09:58 +0000, you wrote:> > >Dear Ron,> > Doesn't it thus seem to strengthen my case, that debilitation or exaltation have little, or, no significant/measureable role to play, in predictive astrology... ? > > My friend,I have asked for concrete examples...precisely because In my own experience I have not found any measureable/quantifiable role that such planets play...(I hope I am not labouring the point.)> > I also realise that I could,however, be wrong...or have missed it completely...and that my experience is a pittance as compared to that of Parasara and the many of his stature... who abounded in the past..> > Yours sincerely,> > lyrastro1> > GOOD LUCK !> >> >rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote:> >> >Yogesh,> >> >Some years ago I did a study on famous sportsmen expecting to a> >find statistically high level of exalted Mars. What I found> >surprised me, in that frequently pre eminent sportsmen in fact> >had debilitated Mars. Pondering on this I suspected that they> >had some type of weakness in a certain area, and used the> >principle of over-compensation to achieve success. > >> >In my own case I have a classical debilitated Mars, and I do have> >a Martian problem. I have always lacked physical energy ie I> >only have to push a lawn mower once across the lawn, and I feel> >as though all my energy is vacating my body. In a few minutes I> >feel as though I have run a marathon. As I matured I have> >managed better, mainly by eliminating certain foods.> >Nevertheless over the years I have compensated for bodily> >dysfunction by engaging in mental pursuits.> >> >On reflection after studying many examples I came to the> >conclusion that what exaltation and debilitation showed was a> >specific gift or inclination, lack or deficiency. In other> >words whilst the planet may function perfectly normal for most> >purposes there is one area where it is abnormal. Thinking in> >terms of KP it might be that where say Mars is significator for> >the 1st, 5th and 10th houses, it may offer excellent results to> >the 5th and 10th whilst giving poor results to the 1st. This> >presumably would be seen in the quality of the sub or by malefic> >association or aspect with reference to the 1st. ie. in KP we> >might be able to see in what area an exalted or debilitated> >planet functions best or worst. > >> >I find it interesting that in a way the author of 'Astrosecrets'> >Pt 1 page 34 comes up with something similar but more limiting> >idea than mine when he says "Ownership exaltation or debilitation> >of planets are generally known responsible to indicate the> >strength or weakness of a human body constitution from head to> >foot, but does not take the responsibility to alter the results> >to be offered, say good to bad or bad to good". I personally> >believe that it isn't specific to bodily condition, but can be> >any area of life. The crux of the matter appears to me be that> >the planet shows a specific limited abnormality - in the normally> >accepted qualities of that planet. > >> >When I get the time I will have a look and see if I can find some> >examples that might show exaltation/debilitation in KP.> >> >> >Ron Gaunt > >> >> >> >> >On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:44:09 +0000, you wrote:> >> >>Dear Ron,> >> The following is being submitted,for yours and the group's serious consideration...and I invite specific examples,in your experiences, clearly illustrating the practical use, of exaltation/debilitation,in predictive K.P.astrology...> >> > >> Here's a quote from Astrosecrets & K.P., p.35...> >> > >> " To say of exaltation,ownership or debilitation,simply on the entering of a Rasi(sign) is not correct,in a sign,in a particular star,in a particular degree-minute only,as the planet moves should be reckoned for exaltation,or debilitation etc..." (italics mine)> >> > >> It is thus important to note that exaltation and debilitation has been defined in star and sub terms...and in a particular degree-minute only, as you have quoted...> >> Also,more importantly,it is clearly stated that exaltation or debilitation does not change/alter the nature of the result...in terms of being benefic or malefic...at the most,it will either hasten or slow down the result...! !> >> > >> Therefore I wonder, "in practical terms" how much difference does this really make...and,if so, how can one measure this "accelleration and decelleration,in the number of hours/days/months..etc..".?> >> If these differences are not quantifiable...simply saying a planet is exalted/debilatated...and therefore...? ? (what do you suggest, we say...which is measureable/quantifiable ?)> >> > >> Hence exaltation/debilitation are recognised theoretically (?),in K.P.,but no quantifiable and practical use is given...! ? (This is my personal opinion and also born out of experience).> >> > >> I therefore feel that exaltation/debilitation are good points only to debate about...and perhaps put forward to justify a successful or failed prediction ? ?> >> > >> Personally I hold a similar view on the various "avasthas"...of planets...as being more of an academic value...in my experience...> >> > >> As I have said earlier,astrology should be of practical use,to both,the consultant/client as well as the astrologer...and it must also felt by readers to be truly useful,in practice...> >> > >> With regards,> >> Yours sincerely,> >> lyrastro1> >> GOOD LUCK !> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> >>rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote:> >>> >>To all members,> >>> >>I haven't yet got round to even skimming through some of the many> >>KP books I have received, so I do not know whether KP relegates> >>or ignores the question of assessing the qualities of each> >>individual planet. I would imagine that somewhere in the> >>literature this point is covered. Meanwhile I use my previous> >>learning to assess the quality of a sub and its likely outcomes.> >>> >>What I am leading to is the point made, that KP does not consider> >>exaltation and debilitation. In 'Astrosecrets & Krishnamurti> >>Padhadhati' April 2003 Edition pages 34 to 38 details when> >>exaltation and debilitation ARE considered. The gist of it> >>appears to be that they are considered when the planet is in the> >>same sub as the highest point of exaltation or debilitation.> >>> >>> >>Ron Gaunt> >>> >>> >>> >>On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:46:06 +0000, you wrote:> >>> >>>Dear Sandy,> >>> I second your suggestion...let us "keep it simple",for the obvious ease of access...and reduced 'navigation'...possibly required...> >>> Also, we will all operate under the k_p_group umbrella...and thus remain on an easily identifiable as well as accessible site...> >>> My use of the computer is very limited indeed,restricted to K.P., and surfing BBC,CNN and the usual Samachar ...hence my computer "skills"(if you can call them so...) are minimal...indeed.> >>> I hope the "computer experts" will bear with me...> >>> With best wishes,> >>> lyrastro1> >>> GOOD LUCK !> >>>> >>>Sandy Crowther <sandy@t...> wrote:> >>>> >>>Dear tw, Anant, Kanak, lyastro 1, Punit Pandey, and ALL (hopefully I didn't miss anyone),> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>Thank you all very much for sharing your knowledge, experience, research, opinions, references, and comments to my (often) endless questions on KP, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to do so. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>And to my delight, some of you even threw in a few "extra" tidbits of KP information that I found extremely interesting – and matters that I was not at all aware of KP's stance on - so thanks very much for elaborating. For example, I had no idea that exaltation and debilitation were not considered in KP – that only retrogression is considered. So considerations of planets being hosted by a friend or enemy - or their compound relationships - obviously have no place in KP due to emphasis and placement of star and sub lords taking precedence. But if Vargottama IS referenced in a few of the 6 KP Readers as a viable and acceptable Rasi companion for planetary assessments in KP, specifically used for assessing planetary strength as mentioned, the Navamsa chart MUST be referenced at some level - Right? I mean, we cannot have Vargottama without Navamsa (Uh-oh – Here we go with that 4 letter word again "amsa" J). So anyway, I'm now off to do a bit of KP research myself - hopefully sometime> >>> today. > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>I think we ALL need to be on the same page as far as what is and isn't an accepted part of KP to date – and then be able to back up with references in at least one of the 6 KP Readers. (Just my not so humble opinion guys J). I know as astrologers, we will always have our own style and preferences when it comes to chart analysis and delineation – which we should have – we are all individuals. But it looks to me like many things are still wide open for research – Ooohhh - I only wish there were more hours in the day. Anyway – Thanks so much again to everyone…> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>P.S. To Ron Gaunt: I think your idea of opening another KP list, is a suggestion put forth with a pioneering spirit in mind of your greatness for researching techniques to attain predictive accuracy – which you know I'm certainly ALL FOR – BUT - 7 months ago I vowed to never to another list due to time constraints – and here I am. I cannot handle another list's email at this time. J Perhaps a more viable solution (if moderator approved here on this KP list) would be to simply add a rider (or addendum) to the bottom of any chart assessment posted on this list, where an analysis has been done correctly, but a KP technique was not used in that particular part of the assessment of the chart to reach that correct result, and then clearly stating that the method used is not an accepted part of KP, just a particular technique you personally found reliably consistent for predictive purposes – like your usage of Solar Eclipses. That way it is left up to the list member to either> >>> accept or reject the technique because it is or is not KP approved, read it or not at the bottom of the email, and there is no confusion as to what is and isn't (to date) an accepted part of KP. And at the same time, we need not be silenced, as individual astrologers, for sharing a technique that is not part of KP – as long as it is in rider/attachment form. This would accommodate all minds on the list. (You and the list all know that we, as astrologers, will NEVER stop using what works for us J – even if we are silenced from sharing how we (personally) reached the correct conclusion - so this is just a suggestion to accommodate everyone under one KP forum.)> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>My 2 cents – but totally up to the Moderators of this list.> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> All the Best,> >>>> >>> Sandy Crowther> >>>> >>> http://www.jupitersweb.com> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Dear Yogesh Rao Lajmi, 1. As per the mentioned KP example, debilitation or exaltation of the Diamond sublord, not Small Packet sublord, decides the amount of dowry that can be received, less or most (a kind of general quantification). Also mentioned there " This is the way how we have to find out whether a debilitated planet or exalted planet maintains its strength. " 2. Of course, further research is required, and " choice is with the person his/her own self " as mentioned by outright rejecting many traditional beliefs, but not debilitation or exaltation, amsas. (Exaltation,navamsa, vargothama, swakshethra etc have been applied in K Subramaniam's PROFESSION, BASIC ON KP.) " SA does not believe in: (i) Chalit (ii) Jamini karakas (iii) jamini dasas (iv) important yogas as laid down in the fixed mode without identifying the functional nature of the planets (v) maraka planets (vi) that the benefics owning good houses become malefic planets (vii) Badhaka principles, (vii) calculation of strengths per traditional graha and bhava balas (viii) traditional manglik (ix) traditional sade-sati, (x) conditional dasas, etc. etc. The advocates of the traditional astrology principles can never match (i) the shortest time required for learning predictive techniques, (ii) confidence, (iii) competence and (iv) speed of an SA astrologer. However, choice is with the person his/her own self. http://www.jupitersweb.com/traditional_approach_versus_syst.htm " Best regards, tw , Yogesh Rao Lajmi <lyrastro1> wrote: > Dear tw853, > Thank you,for acknowledging that the amount of dowry cannot be quantified...that was precisely my submission...the sub only decides,whether one will get or not...if the sublord is Jup it is large,if Sat,it will be miserly,if it is Sun,it could be gold ornaments...etc.,as per the nature of the planet...but,it also cannot quantify...more research has to be done...I have come across a couple of papers in which the author has quantified the amount to be received...but I cannot generalise,as they were only a couple of papers...in K.P. & Astrology monthly Magazine,years ago,since then, nobody has quantified...,nor has he given any explanation for this... > I am for all research,but that these debilitation/exaltation, > amsas,avasthas,ashtakavargas...and what have you...cannot help quantify in measureable terms,the effect to be expected... has been already experienced by me,over the years... > I was only sharing my experience with members... > Those who wish to disagree,are at liberty to do so,but I expect them to please cite concrete examples to support their case...and to be of value in predictive astrology... > With best wishes, > lyrastro1 > GOOD LUCK ! > > tw853 <tw853> wrote: > > Dear Yogesh Rao Lajmi, > > Yogesh Rao Lajmi > > 1. I agree with you as mentioned by B V Raman, " It is in the > prior application of these principles and prediction of events to > happen in future that the real value of astrology lies " . (Editorial, > Dec 1977 Astrological Magazine) > > 2. However, usually research can be done only as a post-mortem > study. > > 3. Referring the example " Can I expect Dowry?', p. 255, KP > Reader VI, 1978 (already mentioned in Msg # ), it may be predicted > that the native will receive the most satisfactory dowry if the star > lord of the 11th is exalted, even though the sublord of 11th is > debilitated; less dowry if Stl is debilitated, even though Sbl is > exalted. (like Sbl is small packet and Stl is diamond in that small > packet.) > > Best regards, > > tw > > > > , Yogesh Rao Lajmi <lyrastro1> > wrote: > > Dear Ron, > > It does,Ron...(even if you keep insisting)...just > ponder over... > > Had any one ever predicted,for sure, that Shirley > will become a star...during so and so period ...etc.,before- > hand,astrologically ? > > Or,are we still continuing to,as in the past, > attribute " properties " in an effort to rationalise exaltation, " after > the event ? " ! > > Accurate Prognostication,Ron...that's the > game...astrology is all about,and that's the only acid test, for the > unsurpassed efficacy of a particular system of astrology... > > Simply saying ... " one day you will become a famous > person... " ,is not enough...a good system should be able to correctly > say, when,and during which period one will become world-famous,and > in what field... > > Don't you agree Ron,that,in this direction,K.P.,is > extremely accurate,consistently,and very simple,and a great > improvement,as compared to any other known system,so far...? ! > > Yours sincerely, > > lyrastro1 > > GOOD LUCK ! > > > > > > > > rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote: > > > > Yogesh, > > > > I don't think it strengthens your case that debilitation and > > exaltation have little or no significant role to play. Surely, > > if as I suspect that these conditions depict an abnormality, > > this needs to be examined because it is going to be very > > important in the life of the native. > > > > Let's have a look at one case that comes to mind. This is > > Shirley Temple Black child star of the 1930s and later diplomat > > to a number of countries. Shirley in her early years would have > > been possibly the best know and loved person in the world. > > She has a superb chart, with Venus near its highest point of > > exaltation conjunct Jupiter in its own sign, both on the cusp of > > the 5th house of entertainment. These were also conjunct 11th > > house Lord Mercury. In addition Sun is at its highest point of > > exaltation; and Rahu is exalted in Venus sign Taurus in the 7th > > house, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio in the 1st. Also Jupiter and > > Mercury are Vargottama. > > > > Shirley's data is: > > DOB 23 April 1928 > > 9:00 pm, PST +8:00 > > Santa Monica, California > > USA > > 34N1'10 " 118W29'25 > > > > I suspect that birth time is slightly later than the published > > details (not much) ; but for the time being let's stick to the > > time given as it is rated AA by Astrodatabank. This makes a > > difference in the subs on the house cusps but not on the > > starlords, or the planets. > > > > Let's now have a look at KP and exaltation. Natal exalted Venus > > in the same star as the highest point of exaltation, is in the > > star of Mercury. Mercury is Lord of the 11th house. This > > young lady's star was really shining brightly and was seen at the > > very young age of 3 when she started making her 1st film on 18th > > Dec 1931. Dasas were Rahu/Jupiter/Mercury. Exalted Rahu as > > sole tenant of Taurus substitutes for Venus and is coupled with > > powerful Jupiter (natally both in the 5th house of films and > > entertainment) and Jupiter is Lord of the 5th of entertainment > > and Mercury Lord of the 11th. > > > > It is interesting to note that of the 12 planets (including > > outers) four planets were in the stars of exalted Rahu or Ketu > > and another four were in star of Mercury Lord of the 11th. > > > > At the time of the previous Solar Eclipse on the 11th Oct 1931 > > the SE point came Exactly opposition natal Venus Jupiter > > conjunction. Remember Shirley has a highly exalted Sun. > > So we see two (natal) exalted planets aspecting each other. At > > the same time SE Jupiter comes exactly aspect to Venus Jupiter > > also. Here we see exalted Natal Venus getting primed for a > > major event. > > > > This event happened on the 18th December 1931 when transit Uranus > > and Moon in exact conjunction triggered natal Venus Jupiter by > > close conjunction. (note natal Uranus had been primed by an > > exact transit of Rahu in the last SE) > > This is what Ebertin states is the probable manifestation of > > Moon/Uranus - " Sacrifices for the attainment of special aims, > > help and assistance through friends, the attainment of sudden > > successes, the accomplishment of a change in one's > > circumstances " . All this is spot on and this Moon Uranus > > transit is conjunct to the exalted Venus strong Jupiter natal > > configuration. > > Now we can easily relate this to an adult - but what about a 3 > > year old child?. I would suggest that is solely on the > > strength and condition of a fantastic Venus (ie exalted) related > > to the 11th house through star lard Mercury that this quickly > > propelled her to be the favorite film star in the world. > > > > Shirley has a great chart for astrological research. I could > > point out many interesting facts, but rather than bore members > > with too many details, I will just mention a couple of points > > about another milestone in her life. On the 20th May 1985 > > she was honored to receive a medal from the President of the > > United states for " Lifetime achievement and Service to the USA > > and the World " . Here we see transit Venus coming exactly > > conjunct natal Venus, and transit Rahu coming exactly aspect > > natal MC. As Rahu substitutes for Venus in Shirley's chart > > we again see the tremendous part played by an exalted Venus > > and exalted Rahu (Venus). > > Her dasas for this event were Mercury Venus Sun ie. both her > > exalted planets and Mercury Lord of the 11th showing recognition > > of her great achievements. > > > > I think many astrologers would agree that the exaltations in > > Shirley's chart really do need to be taken into consideration. > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:09:58 +0000, you wrote: > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > Doesn't it thus seem to strengthen my case, that > debilitation or exaltation have little, or, no > significant/measureable role to play, in predictive astrology... ? > > > My friend,I have asked for concrete > examples...precisely because In my own experience I have not found > any measureable/quantifiable role that such planets play...(I hope I > am not labouring the point.) > > > I also realise that I could,however, be wrong...or > have missed it completely...and that my experience is a pittance as > compared to that of Parasara and the many of his stature... who > abounded in the past.. > > > Yours sincerely, > > > lyrastro1 > > > GOOD LUCK ! > > > > > >rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote: > > > > > >Yogesh, > > > > > >Some years ago I did a study on famous sportsmen expecting to a > > >find statistically high level of exalted Mars. What I found > > >surprised me, in that frequently pre eminent sportsmen in fact > > >had debilitated Mars. Pondering on this I suspected that they > > >had some type of weakness in a certain area, and used the > > >principle of over-compensation to achieve success. > > > > > >In my own case I have a classical debilitated Mars, and I do have > > >a Martian problem. I have always lacked physical energy ie I > > >only have to push a lawn mower once across the lawn, and I feel > > >as though all my energy is vacating my body. In a few minutes I > > >feel as though I have run a marathon. As I matured I have > > >managed better, mainly by eliminating certain foods. > > >Nevertheless over the years I have compensated for bodily > > >dysfunction by engaging in mental pursuits. > > > > > >On reflection after studying many examples I came to the > > >conclusion that what exaltation and debilitation showed was a > > >specific gift or inclination, lack or deficiency. In other > > >words whilst the planet may function perfectly normal for most > > >purposes there is one area where it is abnormal. Thinking in > > >terms of KP it might be that where say Mars is significator for > > >the 1st, 5th and 10th houses, it may offer excellent results to > > >the 5th and 10th whilst giving poor results to the 1st. This > > >presumably would be seen in the quality of the sub or by malefic > > >association or aspect with reference to the 1st. ie. in KP we > > >might be able to see in what area an exalted or debilitated > > >planet functions best or worst. > > > > > >I find it interesting that in a way the author of 'Astrosecrets' > > >Pt 1 page 34 comes up with something similar but more limiting > > >idea than mine when he says " Ownership exaltation or debilitation > > >of planets are generally known responsible to indicate the > > >strength or weakness of a human body constitution from head to > > >foot, but does not take the responsibility to alter the results > > >to be offered, say good to bad or bad to good " . I personally > > >believe that it isn't specific to bodily condition, but can be > > >any area of life. The crux of the matter appears to me be that > > >the planet shows a specific limited abnormality - in the normally > > >accepted qualities of that planet. > > > > > >When I get the time I will have a look and see if I can find some > > >examples that might show exaltation/debilitation in KP. > > > > > > > > >Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:44:09 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > >>Dear Ron, > > >> The following is being submitted,for yours and the > group's serious consideration...and I invite specific examples,in > your experiences, clearly illustrating the practical use, of > exaltation/debilitation,in predictive K.P.astrology... > > >> > > >> Here's a quote from Astrosecrets & K.P., p.35... > > >> > > >> " To say of exaltation,ownership or > debilitation,simply on the entering of a Rasi(sign) is not correct,in > a sign,in a particular star,in a particular degree-minute only,as the > planet moves should be reckoned for exaltation,or debilitation > etc... " (italics mine) > > >> > > >> It is thus important to note that exaltation and > debilitation has been defined in star and sub terms...and in a > particular degree-minute only, as you have quoted... > > >> Also,more importantly,it is clearly stated that > exaltation or debilitation does not change/alter the nature of the > result...in terms of being benefic or malefic...at the most,it will > either hasten or slow down the result...! ! > > >> > > >> Therefore I wonder, " in practical terms " how much > difference does this really make...and,if so, how can one measure > this " accelleration and decelleration,in the number of > hours/days/months..etc.. " .? > > >> If these differences are not quantifiable...simply > saying a planet is exalted/debilatated...and therefore...? ? (what do > you suggest, we say...which is measureable/quantifiable ?) > > >> > > >> Hence exaltation/debilitation are recognised > theoretically (?),in K.P.,but no quantifiable and practical use is > given...! ? (This is my personal opinion and also born out of > experience). > > >> > > >> I therefore feel that exaltation/debilitation are > good points only to debate about...and perhaps put forward to justify > a successful or failed prediction ? ? > > >> > > >> Personally I hold a similar view on the > various " avasthas " ...of planets...as being more of an academic > value...in my experience... > > >> > > >> As I have said earlier,astrology should be of > practical use,to both,the consultant/client as well as the > astrologer...and it must also felt by readers to be truly useful,in > practice... > > >> > > >> With regards, > > >> Yours sincerely, > > >> lyrastro1 > > >> GOOD LUCK ! > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>rongaunt <rongaunt@b...> wrote: > > >> > > >>To all members, > > >> > > >>I haven't yet got round to even skimming through some of the many > > >>KP books I have received, so I do not know whether KP relegates > > >>or ignores the question of assessing the qualities of each > > >>individual planet. I would imagine that somewhere in the > > >>literature this point is covered. Meanwhile I use my previous > > >>learning to assess the quality of a sub and its likely outcomes. > > >> > > >>What I am leading to is the point made, that KP does not consider > > >>exaltation and debilitation. In 'Astrosecrets & Krishnamurti > > >>Padhadhati' April 2003 Edition pages 34 to 38 details when > > >>exaltation and debilitation ARE considered. The gist of it > > >>appears to be that they are considered when the planet is in the > > >>same sub as the highest point of exaltation or debilitation. > > >> > > >> > > >>Ron Gaunt > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:46:06 +0000, you wrote: > > >> > > >>>Dear Sandy, > > >>> I second your suggestion...let us " keep it > simple " ,for the obvious ease of access...and > reduced 'navigation'...possibly required... > > >>> Also, we will all operate under the k_p_group > umbrella...and thus remain on an easily identifiable as well as > accessible site... > > >>> My use of the computer is very limited > indeed,restricted to K.P., and surfing BBC,CNN and the usual > Samachar ...hence my computer " skills " (if you can call them so...) > are minimal...indeed. > > >>> I hope the " computer experts " will bear with > me... > > >>> With best wishes, > > >>> lyrastro1 > > >>> GOOD LUCK ! > > >>> > > >>>Sandy Crowther <sandy@t...> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>Dear tw, Anant, Kanak, lyastro 1, Punit Pandey, and ALL > (hopefully I didn't miss anyone), > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>Thank you all very much for sharing your knowledge, experience, > research, opinions, references, and comments to my (often) endless > questions on KP, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to do > so. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>And to my delight, some of you even threw in a few " extra " > tidbits of KP information that I found extremely interesting – and > matters that I was not at all aware of KP's stance on - so thanks > very much for elaborating. For example, I had no idea that exaltation > and debilitation were not considered in KP – that only retrogression > is considered. So considerations of planets being hosted by a friend > or enemy - or their compound relationships - obviously have no place > in KP due to emphasis and placement of star and sub lords taking > precedence. But if Vargottama IS referenced in a few of the 6 KP > Readers as a viable and acceptable Rasi companion for planetary > assessments in KP, specifically used for assessing planetary strength > as mentioned, the Navamsa chart MUST be referenced at some level - > Right? I mean, we cannot have Vargottama without Navamsa (Uh-oh – > Here we go with that 4 letter word again " amsa " J). So anyway, I'm > now off to do a bit of KP research myself - hopefully sometime > > >>> today. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>I think we ALL need to be on the same page as far as what is and > isn't an accepted part of KP to date – and then be able to back up > with references in at least one of the 6 KP Readers. (Just my not so > humble opinion guys J). I know as astrologers, we will always have > our own style and preferences when it comes to chart analysis and > delineation – which we should have – we are all individuals. But it > looks to me like many things are still wide open for research – > Ooohhh - I only wish there were more hours in the day. Anyway – > Thanks so much again to everyone… > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>P.S. To Ron Gaunt: I think your idea of opening another KP list, > is a suggestion put forth with a pioneering spirit in mind of your > greatness for researching techniques to attain predictive accuracy – > which you know I'm certainly ALL FOR – BUT - 7 months ago I vowed to > never to another list due to time constraints – and here I > am. I cannot handle another list's email at this time. J Perhaps a > more viable solution (if moderator approved here on this KP list) > would be to simply add a rider (or addendum) to the bottom of any > chart assessment posted on this list, where an analysis has been done > correctly, but a KP technique was not used in that particular part of > the assessment of the chart to reach that correct result, and then > clearly stating that the method used is not an accepted part of KP, > just a particular technique you personally found reliably consistent > for predictive purposes – like your usage of Solar Eclipses. That way > it is left up to the list member to either > > >>> accept or reject the technique because it is or is not KP > approved, read it or not at the bottom of the email, and there is no > confusion as to what is and isn't (to date) an accepted part of KP. > And at the same time, we need not be silenced, as individual > astrologers, for sharing a technique that is not part of KP – as long > as it is in rider/attachment form. This would accommodate all minds > on the list. (You and the list all know that we, as astrologers, will > NEVER stop using what works for us J – even if we are silenced from > sharing how we (personally) reached the correct conclusion - so this > is just a suggestion to accommodate everyone under one KP forum.) > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>My 2 cents – but totally up to the Moderators of this list. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> All the Best, > > >>> > > >>> Sandy Crowther > > >>> > > >>> http://www.jupitersweb.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Dear Yogesh, Please see comments **..................** Ron Gaunt On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:09:23 +0000, you wrote: >Dear Ron, > It does,Ron...(even if you keep insisting)...just ponder over... > Had any one ever predicted,for sure, that Shirley will become a star...during so and so period ...etc.,before-hand,astrologically ? ** I doubt it. Primarily because in the West it was not - and still is not - customary to consult an astrologer at birth or (for most people) even in later life. Now if Shirley's mother had shown me her chart at birth and had said that it was her (the mother's)ambition for Shirley to become a child actress and asked my opinion; I would have unhesitatingly said that she had the chart to excel in this area. Why because of her excellent Jupiter Mercury Sun in the 5th house and Venus on the cusp of the 5th. What's more she had Rahu dasa running from shortly after birth to 6th May 1945 when her halcyon days started to recede. (Rahu is exalted and stands for and is even more powerful than her exalted Venus). As for predicting a date an obvious starting point would have been in Rahu dasa Jupiter buhkti (due to natal Venus Jupiter conjunction) which started on 4th Feb 1931. It was in 1931 when she started her acting career. ** > Or,are we still continuing to,as in the past, attribute " properties " in an effort to rationalise exaltation, " after the event ? " ! ** Certainly it is easier to see things after the event, but that doesn't mean that events are not predicted in advance ** > Accurate Prognostication,Ron...that's the game...astrology is all about,and that's the only acid test, for the unsurpassed efficacy of a particular system of astrology... ** I agree. But however, certain we are of our own system I believe that one should always keep an open mind. Other systems too might have answers. For instance I predicted by Solar Eclipse well over a year in advance to the very day, when Israel would go to war against the Palestinians. ** > Simply saying ... " one day you will become a famous person... " ,is not enough...a good system should be able to correctly say, when,and during which period one will become world-famous,and in what field... ** Agreed. see above ** > Don't you agree Ron,that,in this direction,K.P.,is extremely accurate,consistently,and very simple,and a great improvement,as compared to any other known system,so far...? ! ** Yogesh, I wouldn't be on this List, or spending so much time learning KP if I didn't have high hopes for considerable improvement in my astrological skills. I do think that the star and sub lord system is a great improvement; and it carries the ring of truth. Whether it is extremely accurate I still don't know as my experience is still very limited. Consistent? well I cannot agree with you there. Currently I am wrestling with R.Ps. Going through the book 'Ruling Planets & Krishnamurti Pahdati' I am bemused by the lack of consistency. ie the author notes in the preface what are Ruling Planets. He then goes on to give examples which vary from each other in who are the ruling planets. ie in the preface there is no mention of subs being Ruling Planets but in 'Time of Death' he uses subs as Ruling Planets for both the Moon and Lagna. On page 19 in the article 'A suggestion Regarding Ruling Planets' at the end, he accepts a suggestion and states that " we should select also the sub in the star to rise " . So here we have three different suggestions for Ruling Planets - the standard set out in the Preface, the standard plus the sub of the Lagna, the standard plus the subs of both the Lagna and Moon. The author is obviously a gifted astrologer and I am not taking issue with his expertise. I suspect that the articles were a 'work in progress' and as such he is improving his methods as time goes by. We all need to add on what we find works. Nevertheless it is confusing to a beginner who is drifting in a sea of new ideas. > Yours sincerely, > lyrastro1 > GOOD LUCK ! > > > >rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: > >Yogesh, > >I don't think it strengthens your case that debilitation and >exaltation have little or no significant role to play. Surely, >if as I suspect that these conditions depict an abnormality, >this needs to be examined because it is going to be very >important in the life of the native. > >Let's have a look at one case that comes to mind. This is >Shirley Temple Black child star of the 1930s and later diplomat >to a number of countries. Shirley in her early years would have >been possibly the best know and loved person in the world. >She has a superb chart, with Venus near its highest point of >exaltation conjunct Jupiter in its own sign, both on the cusp of >the 5th house of entertainment. These were also conjunct 11th >house Lord Mercury. In addition Sun is at its highest point of >exaltation; and Rahu is exalted in Venus sign Taurus in the 7th >house, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio in the 1st. Also Jupiter and >Mercury are Vargottama. > >Shirley's data is: >DOB 23 April 1928 >9:00 pm, PST +8:00 >Santa Monica, California >USA >34N1'10 " 118W29'25 > >I suspect that birth time is slightly later than the published >details (not much) ; but for the time being let's stick to the >time given as it is rated AA by Astrodatabank. This makes a >difference in the subs on the house cusps but not on the >starlords, or the planets. > >Let's now have a look at KP and exaltation. Natal exalted Venus >in the same star as the highest point of exaltation, is in the >star of Mercury. Mercury is Lord of the 11th house. This >young lady's star was really shining brightly and was seen at the >very young age of 3 when she started making her 1st film on 18th >Dec 1931. Dasas were Rahu/Jupiter/Mercury. Exalted Rahu as >sole tenant of Taurus substitutes for Venus and is coupled with >powerful Jupiter (natally both in the 5th house of films and >entertainment) and Jupiter is Lord of the 5th of entertainment >and Mercury Lord of the 11th. > >It is interesting to note that of the 12 planets (including >outers) four planets were in the stars of exalted Rahu or Ketu >and another four were in star of Mercury Lord of the 11th. > >At the time of the previous Solar Eclipse on the 11th Oct 1931 >the SE point came Exactly opposition natal Venus Jupiter >conjunction. Remember Shirley has a highly exalted Sun. >So we see two (natal) exalted planets aspecting each other. At >the same time SE Jupiter comes exactly aspect to Venus Jupiter >also. Here we see exalted Natal Venus getting primed for a >major event. > >This event happened on the 18th December 1931 when transit Uranus >and Moon in exact conjunction triggered natal Venus Jupiter by >close conjunction. (note natal Uranus had been primed by an >exact transit of Rahu in the last SE) >This is what Ebertin states is the probable manifestation of >Moon/Uranus - " Sacrifices for the attainment of special aims, >help and assistance through friends, the attainment of sudden >successes, the accomplishment of a change in one's >circumstances " . All this is spot on and this Moon Uranus >transit is conjunct to the exalted Venus strong Jupiter natal >configuration. >Now we can easily relate this to an adult - but what about a 3 >year old child?. I would suggest that is solely on the >strength and condition of a fantastic Venus (ie exalted) related >to the 11th house through star lard Mercury that this quickly >propelled her to be the favorite film star in the world. > >Shirley has a great chart for astrological research. I could >point out many interesting facts, but rather than bore members >with too many details, I will just mention a couple of points >about another milestone in her life. On the 20th May 1985 >she was honored to receive a medal from the President of the >United states for " Lifetime achievement and Service to the USA >and the World " . Here we see transit Venus coming exactly >conjunct natal Venus, and transit Rahu coming exactly aspect >natal MC. As Rahu substitutes for Venus in Shirley's chart >we again see the tremendous part played by an exalted Venus >and exalted Rahu (Venus). >Her dasas for this event were Mercury Venus Sun ie. both her >exalted planets and Mercury Lord of the 11th showing recognition >of her great achievements. > >I think many astrologers would agree that the exaltations in >Shirley's chart really do need to be taken into consideration. > > >Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > >On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:09:58 +0000, you wrote: > >>Dear Ron, >> Doesn't it thus seem to strengthen my case, that debilitation or exaltation have little, or, no significant/measureable role to play, in predictive astrology... ? >> My friend,I have asked for concrete examples...precisely because In my own experience I have not found any measureable/quantifiable role that such planets play...(I hope I am not labouring the point.) >> I also realise that I could,however, be wrong...or have missed it completely...and that my experience is a pittance as compared to that of Parasara and the many of his stature... who abounded in the past.. >> Yours sincerely, >> lyrastro1 >> GOOD LUCK ! >> >>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: >> >>Yogesh, >> >>Some years ago I did a study on famous sportsmen expecting to a >>find statistically high level of exalted Mars. What I found >>surprised me, in that frequently pre eminent sportsmen in fact >>had debilitated Mars. Pondering on this I suspected that they >>had some type of weakness in a certain area, and used the >>principle of over-compensation to achieve success. >> >>In my own case I have a classical debilitated Mars, and I do have >>a Martian problem. I have always lacked physical energy ie I >>only have to push a lawn mower once across the lawn, and I feel >>as though all my energy is vacating my body. In a few minutes I >>feel as though I have run a marathon. As I matured I have >>managed better, mainly by eliminating certain foods. >>Nevertheless over the years I have compensated for bodily >>dysfunction by engaging in mental pursuits. >> >>On reflection after studying many examples I came to the >>conclusion that what exaltation and debilitation showed was a >>specific gift or inclination, lack or deficiency. In other >>words whilst the planet may function perfectly normal for most >>purposes there is one area where it is abnormal. Thinking in >>terms of KP it might be that where say Mars is significator for >>the 1st, 5th and 10th houses, it may offer excellent results to >>the 5th and 10th whilst giving poor results to the 1st. This >>presumably would be seen in the quality of the sub or by malefic >>association or aspect with reference to the 1st. ie. in KP we >>might be able to see in what area an exalted or debilitated >>planet functions best or worst. >> >>I find it interesting that in a way the author of 'Astrosecrets' >>Pt 1 page 34 comes up with something similar but more limiting >>idea than mine when he says " Ownership exaltation or debilitation >>of planets are generally known responsible to indicate the >>strength or weakness of a human body constitution from head to >>foot, but does not take the responsibility to alter the results >>to be offered, say good to bad or bad to good " . I personally >>believe that it isn't specific to bodily condition, but can be >>any area of life. The crux of the matter appears to me be that >>the planet shows a specific limited abnormality - in the normally >>accepted qualities of that planet. >> >>When I get the time I will have a look and see if I can find some >>examples that might show exaltation/debilitation in KP. >> >> >>Ron Gaunt >> >> >> >> >>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:44:09 +0000, you wrote: >> >>>Dear Ron, >>> The following is being submitted,for yours and the group's serious consideration...and I invite specific examples,in your experiences, clearly illustrating the practical use, of exaltation/debilitation,in predictive K.P.astrology... >>> >>> Here's a quote from Astrosecrets & K.P., p.35... >>> >>> " To say of exaltation,ownership or debilitation,simply on the entering of a Rasi(sign) is not correct,in a sign,in a particular star,in a particular degree-minute only,as the planet moves should be reckoned for exaltation,or debilitation etc... " (italics mine) >>> >>> It is thus important to note that exaltation and debilitation has been defined in star and sub terms...and in a particular degree-minute only, as you have quoted... >>> Also,more importantly,it is clearly stated that exaltation or debilitation does not change/alter the nature of the result...in terms of being benefic or malefic...at the most,it will either hasten or slow down the result...! ! >>> >>> Therefore I wonder, " in practical terms " how much difference does this really make...and,if so, how can one measure this " accelleration and decelleration,in the number of hours/days/months..etc.. " .? >>> If these differences are not quantifiable...simply saying a planet is exalted/debilatated...and therefore...? ? (what do you suggest, we say...which is measureable/quantifiable ?) >>> >>> Hence exaltation/debilitation are recognised theoretically (?),in K.P.,but no quantifiable and practical use is given...! ? (This is my personal opinion and also born out of experience). >>> >>> I therefore feel that exaltation/debilitation are good points only to debate about...and perhaps put forward to justify a successful or failed prediction ? ? >>> >>> Personally I hold a similar view on the various " avasthas " ...of planets...as being more of an academic value...in my experience... >>> >>> As I have said earlier,astrology should be of practical use,to both,the consultant/client as well as the astrologer...and it must also felt by readers to be truly useful,in practice... >>> >>> With regards, >>> Yours sincerely, >>> lyrastro1 >>> GOOD LUCK ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: >>> >>>To all members, >>> >>>I haven't yet got round to even skimming through some of the many >>>KP books I have received, so I do not know whether KP relegates >>>or ignores the question of assessing the qualities of each >>>individual planet. I would imagine that somewhere in the >>>literature this point is covered. Meanwhile I use my previous >>>learning to assess the quality of a sub and its likely outcomes. >>> >>>What I am leading to is the point made, that KP does not consider >>>exaltation and debilitation. In 'Astrosecrets & Krishnamurti >>>Padhadhati' April 2003 Edition pages 34 to 38 details when >>>exaltation and debilitation ARE considered. The gist of it >>>appears to be that they are considered when the planet is in the >>>same sub as the highest point of exaltation or debilitation. >>> >>> >>>Ron Gaunt >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:46:06 +0000, you wrote: >>> >>>>Dear Sandy, >>>> I second your suggestion...let us " keep it simple " ,for the obvious ease of access...and reduced 'navigation'...possibly required... >>>> Also, we will all operate under the k_p_group umbrella...and thus remain on an easily identifiable as well as accessible site... >>>> My use of the computer is very limited indeed,restricted to K.P., and surfing BBC,CNN and the usual Samachar ...hence my computer " skills " (if you can call them so...) are minimal...indeed. >>>> I hope the " computer experts " will bear with me... >>>> With best wishes, >>>> lyrastro1 >>>> GOOD LUCK ! >>>> >>>>Sandy Crowther <sandy wrote: >>>> >>>>Dear tw, Anant, Kanak, lyastro 1, Punit Pandey, and ALL (hopefully I didn’t miss anyone), >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Thank you all very much for sharing your knowledge, experience, research, opinions, references, and comments to my (often) endless questions on KP, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to do so. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>And to my delight, some of you even threw in a few “extra” tidbits of KP information that I found extremely interesting – and matters that I was not at all aware of KP’s stance on - so thanks very much for elaborating. For example, I had no idea that exaltation and debilitation were not considered in KP – that only retrogression is considered. So considerations of planets being hosted by a friend or enemy - or their compound relationships - obviously have no place in KP due to emphasis and placement of star and sub lords taking precedence. But if Vargottama IS referenced in a few of the 6 KP Readers as a viable and acceptable Rasi companion for planetary assessments in KP, specifically used for assessing planetary strength as mentioned, the Navamsa chart MUST be referenced at some level - Right? I mean, we cannot have Vargottama without Navamsa (Uh-oh – Here we go with that 4 letter word again “amsa” J). So anyway, I’m now off to do a bit of KP research myself - hopefully sometime >>>> today. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I think we ALL need to be on the same page as far as what is and isn’t an accepted part of KP to date – and then be able to back up with references in at least one of the 6 KP Readers. (Just my not so humble opinion guys J). I know as astrologers, we will always have our own style and preferences when it comes to chart analysis and delineation – which we should have – we are all individuals. But it looks to me like many things are still wide open for research – Ooohhh - I only wish there were more hours in the day. Anyway – Thanks so much again to everyone… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>P.S. To Ron Gaunt: I think your idea of opening another KP list, is a suggestion put forth with a pioneering spirit in mind of your greatness for researching techniques to attain predictive accuracy – which you know I’m certainly ALL FOR – BUT - 7 months ago I vowed to never to another list due to time constraints – and here I am. I cannot handle another list’s email at this time. J Perhaps a more viable solution (if moderator approved here on this KP list) would be to simply add a rider (or addendum) to the bottom of any chart assessment posted on this list, where an analysis has been done correctly, but a KP technique was not used in that particular part of the assessment of the chart to reach that correct result, and then clearly stating that the method used is not an accepted part of KP, just a particular technique you personally found reliably consistent for predictive purposes – like your usage of Solar Eclipses. That way it is left up to the list member to either >>>> accept or reject the technique because it is or is not KP approved, read it or not at the bottom of the email, and there is no confusion as to what is and isn’t (to date) an accepted part of KP. And at the same time, we need not be silenced, as individual astrologers, for sharing a technique that is not part of KP – as long as it is in rider/attachment form. This would accommodate all minds on the list. (You and the list all know that we, as astrologers, will NEVER stop using what works for us J – even if we are silenced from sharing how we (personally) reached the correct conclusion - so this is just a suggestion to accommodate everyone under one KP forum.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>My 2 cents – but totally up to the Moderators of this list. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All the Best, >>>> >>>> Sandy Crowther >>>> >>>> http://www.jupitersweb.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Dear Ron, Only K.P., has developed a method for the correct (atleast 85-90% success),by atleast 2 well-established methods,using 'transits'...also... In my personal experience the transit of the sublord of the karaka planet,if properly matched by the transit of the sublord of the XIth cusp... AND the luminaries,or Jupiter,as the case may warrant...an event can be predicted to the very day...and the transit of the Ascendant on that day can help fix the exact time...! ! Yes,as you aver,I am not very familiar with Western Astrological Systems,but such a quality of precision, matching that of K.P., I have yet to come accross with,in any system of astrology... I have only yesterday purchased a book written by a famous Numerologist, Shri Sethuraman,and will study it,and experiment with Numerology...particularly for its predictive accuracy...and then,perhaps I could assume the additional mantle of astro-numerologist ...? ? These days, a surfeit of ads keep appearing in News-papers, Magazines etc., of Astro-Numerologists...(whatever that means) ! With best wishes, Yours sincerely, lyrastro1 GOOD LUCK !rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: Dear Yogesh,Please see comments **..................**Ron GauntOn Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:09:23 +0000, you wrote:>Dear Ron,> It does,Ron...(even if you keep insisting)...just ponder over...> Had any one ever predicted,for sure, that Shirley will become a star...during so and so period ...etc.,before-hand,astrologically ?** I doubt it. Primarily because in the West it was not - and still is not - customary to consult an astrologer at birth or (for most people) even in later life. Now if Shirley's mother had shown me her chart at birth and had said that it was her (the mother's)ambition for Shirley to become a child actress and asked my opinion; I would have unhesitatingly said that she had the chart to excel in this area. Why because of her excellent Jupiter Mercury Sun in the 5th house and Venus on the cusp of the 5th. What's more she had Rahu dasa running from shortly after birth to 6th May 1945 when her halcyon days started to recede. (Rahu is exalted and stands for and is even more powerful than her exalted Venus). As for predicting a date an obvious starting point would have been in Rahu dasa Jupiter buhkti (due to natal Venus Jupiter conjunction) which started on 4th Feb 1931. It was in 1931 when she started her acting career. **> Or,are we still continuing to,as in the past, attribute "properties" in an effort to rationalise exaltation,"after the event ?" !** Certainly it is easier to see things after the event, but that doesn't mean that events are not predicted in advance **> Accurate Prognostication,Ron...that's the game...astrology is all about,and that's the only acid test, for the unsurpassed efficacy of a particular system of astrology...** I agree. But however, certain we are of our own system I believe that one should always keep an open mind. Other systems too might have answers. For instance I predicted by Solar Eclipse well over a year in advance to the very day, when Israel would go to war against the Palestinians. **> Simply saying ..."one day you will become a famous person...",is not enough...a good system should be able to correctly say, when,and during which period one will become world-famous,and in what field... ** Agreed. see above **> Don't you agree Ron,that,in this direction,K.P.,is extremely accurate,consistently,and very simple,and a great improvement,as compared to any other known system,so far...? !** Yogesh, I wouldn't be on this List, or spending so much time learning KP if I didn't have high hopes for considerable improvement in my astrological skills. I do think that the star and sub lord system is a great improvement; and it carries the ring of truth. Whether it is extremely accurate I still don't know as my experience is still very limited. Consistent? well I cannot agree with you there. Currently I am wrestling with R.Ps. Going through the book 'Ruling Planets & Krishnamurti Pahdati' I am bemused by the lack of consistency. ie the author notes in the preface what are Ruling Planets. He then goes on to give examples which vary from each other in who are the ruling planets. ie in the preface there is no mention of subs being Ruling Planets but in 'Time of Death' he uses subs as Ruling Planets for both the Moon and Lagna. On page 19 in the article 'A suggestion Regarding Ruling Planets' at the end, he accepts a suggestion and states that "we should select also the sub in the star to rise". So here we have three different suggestions for Ruling Planets - the standard set out in the Preface, the standard plus the sub of the Lagna, the standard plus the subs of both the Lagna and Moon. The author is obviously a gifted astrologer and I am not taking issue with his expertise. I suspect that the articles were a 'work in progress' and as such he is improving his methods as time goes by. We all need to add on what we find works. Nevertheless it is confusing to a beginner who is drifting in a sea of new ideas.> Yours sincerely,> lyrastro1> GOOD LUCK !> > >>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote:>>Yogesh,>>I don't think it strengthens your case that debilitation and>exaltation have little or no significant role to play. Surely,>if as I suspect that these conditions depict an abnormality,>this needs to be examined because it is going to be very>important in the life of the native.>>Let's have a look at one case that comes to mind. This is>Shirley Temple Black child star of the 1930s and later diplomat>to a number of countries. Shirley in her early years would have>been possibly the best know and loved person in the world.>She has a superb chart, with Venus near its highest point of>exaltation conjunct Jupiter in its own sign, both on the cusp of>the 5th house of entertainment. These were also conjunct 11th>house Lord Mercury. In addition Sun is at its highest point of>exaltation; and Rahu is exalted in Venus sign Taurus in the 7th>house, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio in the 1st. Also Jupiter and>Mercury are Vargottama.>>Shirley's data is:>DOB 23 April 1928 >9:00 pm, PST +8:00>Santa Monica, California>USA>34N1'10" 118W29'25>>I suspect that birth time is slightly later than the published>details (not much) ; but for the time being let's stick to the>time given as it is rated AA by Astrodatabank. This makes a>difference in the subs on the house cusps but not on the>starlords, or the planets.>>Let's now have a look at KP and exaltation. Natal exalted Venus>in the same star as the highest point of exaltation, is in the>star of Mercury. Mercury is Lord of the 11th house. This>young lady's star was really shining brightly and was seen at the>very young age of 3 when she started making her 1st film on 18th>Dec 1931. Dasas were Rahu/Jupiter/Mercury. Exalted Rahu as>sole tenant of Taurus substitutes for Venus and is coupled with>powerful Jupiter (natally both in the 5th house of films and>entertainment) and Jupiter is Lord of the 5th of entertainment>and Mercury Lord of the 11th.>>It is interesting to note that of the 12 planets (including>outers) four planets were in the stars of exalted Rahu or Ketu>and another four were in star of Mercury Lord of the 11th.>>At the time of the previous Solar Eclipse on the 11th Oct 1931>the SE point came Exactly opposition natal Venus Jupiter>conjunction. Remember Shirley has a highly exalted Sun.>So we see two (natal) exalted planets aspecting each other. At>the same time SE Jupiter comes exactly aspect to Venus Jupiter>also. Here we see exalted Natal Venus getting primed for a>major event.>>This event happened on the 18th December 1931 when transit Uranus>and Moon in exact conjunction triggered natal Venus Jupiter by>close conjunction. (note natal Uranus had been primed by an>exact transit of Rahu in the last SE)>This is what Ebertin states is the probable manifestation of>Moon/Uranus - "Sacrifices for the attainment of special aims,>help and assistance through friends, the attainment of sudden>successes, the accomplishment of a change in one's>circumstances". All this is spot on and this Moon Uranus>transit is conjunct to the exalted Venus strong Jupiter natal>configuration. >Now we can easily relate this to an adult - but what about a 3>year old child?. I would suggest that is solely on the>strength and condition of a fantastic Venus (ie exalted) related>to the 11th house through star lard Mercury that this quickly>propelled her to be the favorite film star in the world.>>Shirley has a great chart for astrological research. I could>point out many interesting facts, but rather than bore members>with too many details, I will just mention a couple of points>about another milestone in her life. On the 20th May 1985>she was honored to receive a medal from the President of the>United states for "Lifetime achievement and Service to the USA>and the World". Here we see transit Venus coming exactly>conjunct natal Venus, and transit Rahu coming exactly aspect>natal MC. As Rahu substitutes for Venus in Shirley's chart >we again see the tremendous part played by an exalted Venus>and exalted Rahu (Venus).>Her dasas for this event were Mercury Venus Sun ie. both her>exalted planets and Mercury Lord of the 11th showing recognition>of her great achievements. >>I think many astrologers would agree that the exaltations in>Shirley's chart really do need to be taken into consideration.>>>Ron Gaunt>>>>>>>>>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:09:58 +0000, you wrote:>>>Dear Ron,>> Doesn't it thus seem to strengthen my case, that debilitation or exaltation have little, or, no significant/measureable role to play, in predictive astrology... ? >> My friend,I have asked for concrete examples...precisely because In my own experience I have not found any measureable/quantifiable role that such planets play...(I hope I am not labouring the point.)>> I also realise that I could,however, be wrong...or have missed it completely...and that my experience is a pittance as compared to that of Parasara and the many of his stature... who abounded in the past..>> Yours sincerely,>> lyrastro1>> GOOD LUCK !>>>>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote:>>>>Yogesh,>>>>Some years ago I did a study on famous sportsmen expecting to a>>find statistically high level of exalted Mars. What I found>>surprised me, in that frequently pre eminent sportsmen in fact>>had debilitated Mars. Pondering on this I suspected that they>>had some type of weakness in a certain area, and used the>>principle of over-compensation to achieve success. >>>>In my own case I have a classical debilitated Mars, and I do have>>a Martian problem. I have always lacked physical energy ie I>>only have to push a lawn mower once across the lawn, and I feel>>as though all my energy is vacating my body. In a few minutes I>>feel as though I have run a marathon. As I matured I have>>managed better, mainly by eliminating certain foods.>>Nevertheless over the years I have compensated for bodily>>dysfunction by engaging in mental pursuits.>>>>On reflection after studying many examples I came to the>>conclusion that what exaltation and debilitation showed was a>>specific gift or inclination, lack or deficiency. In other>>words whilst the planet may function perfectly normal for most>>purposes there is one area where it is abnormal. Thinking in>>terms of KP it might be that where say Mars is significator for>>the 1st, 5th and 10th houses, it may offer excellent results to>>the 5th and 10th whilst giving poor results to the 1st. This>>presumably would be seen in the quality of the sub or by malefic>>association or aspect with reference to the 1st. ie. in KP we>>might be able to see in what area an exalted or debilitated>>planet functions best or worst. >>>>I find it interesting that in a way the author of 'Astrosecrets'>>Pt 1 page 34 comes up with something similar but more limiting>>idea than mine when he says "Ownership exaltation or debilitation>>of planets are generally known responsible to indicate the>>strength or weakness of a human body constitution from head to>>foot, but does not take the responsibility to alter the results>>to be offered, say good to bad or bad to good". I personally>>believe that it isn't specific to bodily condition, but can be>>any area of life. The crux of the matter appears to me be that>>the planet shows a specific limited abnormality - in the normally>>accepted qualities of that planet. >>>>When I get the time I will have a look and see if I can find some>>examples that might show exaltation/debilitation in KP.>>>>>>Ron Gaunt >>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:44:09 +0000, you wrote:>>>>>Dear Ron,>>> The following is being submitted,for yours and the group's serious consideration...and I invite specific examples,in your experiences, clearly illustrating the practical use, of exaltation/debilitation,in predictive K.P.astrology...>>> >>> Here's a quote from Astrosecrets & K.P., p.35...>>> >>> " To say of exaltation,ownership or debilitation,simply on the entering of a Rasi(sign) is not correct,in a sign,in a particular star,in a particular degree-minute only,as the planet moves should be reckoned for exaltation,or debilitation etc..." (italics mine)>>> >>> It is thus important to note that exaltation and debilitation has been defined in star and sub terms...and in a particular degree-minute only, as you have quoted...>>> Also,more importantly,it is clearly stated that exaltation or debilitation does not change/alter the nature of the result...in terms of being benefic or malefic...at the most,it will either hasten or slow down the result...! !>>> >>> Therefore I wonder, "in practical terms" how much difference does this really make...and,if so, how can one measure this "accelleration and decelleration,in the number of hours/days/months..etc..".?>>> If these differences are not quantifiable...simply saying a planet is exalted/debilatated...and therefore...? ? (what do you suggest, we say...which is measureable/quantifiable ?)>>> >>> Hence exaltation/debilitation are recognised theoretically (?),in K.P.,but no quantifiable and practical use is given...! ? (This is my personal opinion and also born out of experience).>>> >>> I therefore feel that exaltation/debilitation are good points only to debate about...and perhaps put forward to justify a successful or failed prediction ? ?>>> >>> Personally I hold a similar view on the various "avasthas"...of planets...as being more of an academic value...in my experience...>>> >>> As I have said earlier,astrology should be of practical use,to both,the consultant/client as well as the astrologer...and it must also felt by readers to be truly useful,in practice...>>> >>> With regards,>>> Yours sincerely,>>> lyrastro1>>> GOOD LUCK !>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote:>>>>>>To all members,>>>>>>I haven't yet got round to even skimming through some of the many>>>KP books I have received, so I do not know whether KP relegates>>>or ignores the question of assessing the qualities of each>>>individual planet. I would imagine that somewhere in the>>>literature this point is covered. Meanwhile I use my previous>>>learning to assess the quality of a sub and its likely outcomes.>>>>>>What I am leading to is the point made, that KP does not consider>>>exaltation and debilitation. In 'Astrosecrets & Krishnamurti>>>Padhadhati' April 2003 Edition pages 34 to 38 details when>>>exaltation and debilitation ARE considered. The gist of it>>>appears to be that they are considered when the planet is in the>>>same sub as the highest point of exaltation or debilitation.>>>>>>>>>Ron Gaunt>>>>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:46:06 +0000, you wrote:>>>>>>>Dear Sandy,>>>> I second your suggestion...let us "keep it simple",for the obvious ease of access...and reduced 'navigation'...possibly required...>>>> Also, we will all operate under the k_p_group umbrella...and thus remain on an easily identifiable as well as accessible site...>>>> My use of the computer is very limited indeed,restricted to K.P., and surfing BBC,CNN and the usual Samachar ...hence my computer "skills"(if you can call them so...) are minimal...indeed.>>>> I hope the "computer experts" will bear with me...>>>> With best wishes,>>>> lyrastro1>>>> GOOD LUCK !>>>>>>>>Sandy Crowther <sandy wrote:>>>>>>>>Dear tw, Anant, Kanak, lyastro 1, Punit Pandey, and ALL (hopefully I didn’t miss anyone),>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thank you all very much for sharing your knowledge, experience, research, opinions, references, and comments to my (often) endless questions on KP, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to do so. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And to my delight, some of you even threw in a few “extra” tidbits of KP information that I found extremely interesting – and matters that I was not at all aware of KP’s stance on - so thanks very much for elaborating. For example, I had no idea that exaltation and debilitation were not considered in KP – that only retrogression is considered. So considerations of planets being hosted by a friend or enemy - or their compound relationships - obviously have no place in KP due to emphasis and placement of star and sub lords taking precedence. But if Vargottama IS referenced in a few of the 6 KP Readers as a viable and acceptable Rasi companion for planetary assessments in KP, specifically used for assessing planetary strength as mentioned, the Navamsa chart MUST be referenced at some level - Right? I mean, we cannot have Vargottama without Navamsa (Uh-oh – Here we go with that 4 letter word again “amsa” J). So anyway, I’m now off to do a bit of KP research myself - hopefully sometime>>>> today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think we ALL need to be on the same page as far as what is and isn’t an accepted part of KP to date – and then be able to back up with references in at least one of the 6 KP Readers. (Just my not so humble opinion guys J). I know as astrologers, we will always have our own style and preferences when it comes to chart analysis and delineation – which we should have – we are all individuals. But it looks to me like many things are still wide open for research – Ooohhh - I only wish there were more hours in the day. Anyway – Thanks so much again to everyone…>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>P.S. To Ron Gaunt: I think your idea of opening another KP list, is a suggestion put forth with a pioneering spirit in mind of your greatness for researching techniques to attain predictive accuracy – which you know I’m certainly ALL FOR – BUT - 7 months ago I vowed to never to another list due to time constraints – and here I am. I cannot handle another list’s email at this time. J Perhaps a more viable solution (if moderator approved here on this KP list) would be to simply add a rider (or addendum) to the bottom of any chart assessment posted on this list, where an analysis has been done correctly, but a KP technique was not used in that particular part of the assessment of the chart to reach that correct result, and then clearly stating that the method used is not an accepted part of KP, just a particular technique you personally found reliably consistent for predictive purposes – like your usage of Solar Eclipses. That way it is left up to the list member to either>>>> accept or reject the technique because it is or is not KP approved, read it or not at the bottom of the email, and there is no confusion as to what is and isn’t (to date) an accepted part of KP. And at the same time, we need not be silenced, as individual astrologers, for sharing a technique that is not part of KP – as long as it is in rider/attachment form. This would accommodate all minds on the list. (You and the list all know that we, as astrologers, will NEVER stop using what works for us J – even if we are silenced from sharing how we (personally) reached the correct conclusion - so this is just a suggestion to accommodate everyone under one KP forum.)>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>My 2 cents – but totally up to the Moderators of this list.>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All the Best,>>>>>>>> Sandy Crowther>>>>>>>> http://www.jupitersweb.com>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 CORRECTION Unfortunately in my cross check I mixed up lines and stated that on the 20th May 1985 Shirley received a medal for Lifetime acheivement from the President of the United States. In fact 20th May 1985 was the date Shirley received an Oscar from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts 2when they gave a 'Tribute to Shirley Temple'. The medal for Lifetime Acheivement was presented in Washington on 6th Dec 1998. Ron Gaunt On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:11:28 +1000, I wrote: > > >Dear Yogesh, > >Please see comments **..................** > >Ron Gaunt > > > >On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:09:23 +0000, you wrote: > >>Dear Ron, >> It does,Ron...(even if you keep insisting)...just ponder over... >> Had any one ever predicted,for sure, that Shirley will become a star...during so and so period ...etc.,before-hand,astrologically ? > >** I doubt it. Primarily because in the West it was not - and > still is not - customary to consult an astrologer at birth > or (for most people) even in later life. Now if Shirley's > mother had shown me her chart at birth and had said that it > was her (the mother's)ambition for Shirley to become a child > actress and asked my opinion; I would have unhesitatingly > said that she had the chart to excel in this area. Why > because of her excellent Jupiter Mercury Sun in the 5th > house and Venus on the cusp of the 5th. What's more > she had Rahu dasa running from shortly after birth to 6th > May 1945 when her halcyon days started to recede. (Rahu is > exalted and stands for and is even more powerful than her > exalted Venus). As for predicting a date an obvious > starting point would have been in Rahu dasa Jupiter buhkti > (due to natal Venus Jupiter conjunction) which started on > 4th Feb 1931. It was in 1931 when she started her acting > career. ** >> Or,are we still continuing to,as in the past, attribute " properties " in an effort to rationalise exaltation, " after the event ? " ! > >** Certainly it is easier to see things after the event, but that > doesn't mean that events are not predicted in advance ** > >> Accurate Prognostication,Ron...that's the game...astrology is all about,and that's the only acid test, for the unsurpassed efficacy of a particular system of astrology... > >** I agree. But however, certain we are of our own system I > believe that one should always keep an open mind. Other > systems too might have answers. For instance I > predicted by Solar Eclipse well over a year in advance to > the very day, when Israel would go to war against the > Palestinians. ** > >> Simply saying ... " one day you will become a famous person... " ,is not enough...a good system should be able to correctly say, when,and during which period one will become world-famous,and in what field... > >** Agreed. see above ** > >> Don't you agree Ron,that,in this direction,K.P.,is extremely accurate,consistently,and very simple,and a great improvement,as compared to any other known system,so far...? ! > >** Yogesh, I wouldn't be on this List, or spending so much time > learning KP if I didn't have high hopes for considerable > improvement in my astrological skills. I do think that > the star and sub lord system is a great improvement; and it > carries the ring of truth. > Whether it is extremely accurate I still don't know as my > experience is still very limited. > Consistent? well I cannot agree with you there. Currently > I am wrestling with R.Ps. Going through the book 'Ruling > Planets & Krishnamurti Pahdati' I am bemused by the lack of > consistency. ie the author notes in the preface what are > Ruling Planets. He then goes on to give examples which > vary from each other in who are the ruling planets. > ie in the preface there is no mention of subs being Ruling > Planets but in 'Time of Death' he uses subs as Ruling > Planets for both the Moon and Lagna. On page 19 in the > article 'A suggestion Regarding Ruling Planets' at the end, > he accepts a suggestion and states that " we should select > also the sub in the star to rise " . So here we have three > different suggestions for Ruling Planets > - the standard set out in the Preface, the standard plus > the sub of the Lagna, the standard plus the subs of both > the Lagna and Moon. The author is obviously a gifted > astrologer and I am not taking issue with his expertise. > I suspect that the articles were a 'work in progress' and > as such he is improving his methods as time goes by. > We all need to add on what we find works. Nevertheless > it is confusing to a beginner who is drifting in a sea of > new ideas. > >> Yours sincerely, >> lyrastro1 >> GOOD LUCK ! >> >> >> >>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: >> >>Yogesh, >> >>I don't think it strengthens your case that debilitation and >>exaltation have little or no significant role to play. Surely, >>if as I suspect that these conditions depict an abnormality, >>this needs to be examined because it is going to be very >>important in the life of the native. >> >>Let's have a look at one case that comes to mind. This is >>Shirley Temple Black child star of the 1930s and later diplomat >>to a number of countries. Shirley in her early years would have >>been possibly the best know and loved person in the world. >>She has a superb chart, with Venus near its highest point of >>exaltation conjunct Jupiter in its own sign, both on the cusp of >>the 5th house of entertainment. These were also conjunct 11th >>house Lord Mercury. In addition Sun is at its highest point of >>exaltation; and Rahu is exalted in Venus sign Taurus in the 7th >>house, and Ketu exalted in Scorpio in the 1st. Also Jupiter and >>Mercury are Vargottama. >> >>Shirley's data is: >>DOB 23 April 1928 >>9:00 pm, PST +8:00 >>Santa Monica, California >>USA >>34N1'10 " 118W29'25 >> >>I suspect that birth time is slightly later than the published >>details (not much) ; but for the time being let's stick to the >>time given as it is rated AA by Astrodatabank. This makes a >>difference in the subs on the house cusps but not on the >>starlords, or the planets. >> >>Let's now have a look at KP and exaltation. Natal exalted Venus >>in the same star as the highest point of exaltation, is in the >>star of Mercury. Mercury is Lord of the 11th house. This >>young lady's star was really shining brightly and was seen at the >>very young age of 3 when she started making her 1st film on 18th >>Dec 1931. Dasas were Rahu/Jupiter/Mercury. Exalted Rahu as >>sole tenant of Taurus substitutes for Venus and is coupled with >>powerful Jupiter (natally both in the 5th house of films and >>entertainment) and Jupiter is Lord of the 5th of entertainment >>and Mercury Lord of the 11th. >> >>It is interesting to note that of the 12 planets (including >>outers) four planets were in the stars of exalted Rahu or Ketu >>and another four were in star of Mercury Lord of the 11th. >> >>At the time of the previous Solar Eclipse on the 11th Oct 1931 >>the SE point came Exactly opposition natal Venus Jupiter >>conjunction. Remember Shirley has a highly exalted Sun. >>So we see two (natal) exalted planets aspecting each other. At >>the same time SE Jupiter comes exactly aspect to Venus Jupiter >>also. Here we see exalted Natal Venus getting primed for a >>major event. >> >>This event happened on the 18th December 1931 when transit Uranus >>and Moon in exact conjunction triggered natal Venus Jupiter by >>close conjunction. (note natal Uranus had been primed by an >>exact transit of Rahu in the last SE) >>This is what Ebertin states is the probable manifestation of >>Moon/Uranus - " Sacrifices for the attainment of special aims, >>help and assistance through friends, the attainment of sudden >>successes, the accomplishment of a change in one's >>circumstances " . All this is spot on and this Moon Uranus >>transit is conjunct to the exalted Venus strong Jupiter natal >>configuration. >>Now we can easily relate this to an adult - but what about a 3 >>year old child?. I would suggest that is solely on the >>strength and condition of a fantastic Venus (ie exalted) related >>to the 11th house through star lard Mercury that this quickly >>propelled her to be the favorite film star in the world. >> >>Shirley has a great chart for astrological research. I could >>point out many interesting facts, but rather than bore members >>with too many details, I will just mention a couple of points >>about another milestone in her life. On the 20th May 1985 >>she was honored to receive a medal from the President of the >>United states for " Lifetime achievement and Service to the USA >>and the World " . Here we see transit Venus coming exactly >>conjunct natal Venus, and transit Rahu coming exactly aspect >>natal MC. As Rahu substitutes for Venus in Shirley's chart >>we again see the tremendous part played by an exalted Venus >>and exalted Rahu (Venus). >>Her dasas for this event were Mercury Venus Sun ie. both her >>exalted planets and Mercury Lord of the 11th showing recognition >>of her great achievements. >> >>I think many astrologers would agree that the exaltations in >>Shirley's chart really do need to be taken into consideration. >> >> >>Ron Gaunt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:09:58 +0000, you wrote: >> >>>Dear Ron, >>> Doesn't it thus seem to strengthen my case, that debilitation or exaltation have little, or, no significant/measureable role to play, in predictive astrology... ? >>> My friend,I have asked for concrete examples...precisely because In my own experience I have not found any measureable/quantifiable role that such planets play...(I hope I am not labouring the point.) >>> I also realise that I could,however, be wrong...or have missed it completely...and that my experience is a pittance as compared to that of Parasara and the many of his stature... who abounded in the past.. >>> Yours sincerely, >>> lyrastro1 >>> GOOD LUCK ! >>> >>>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: >>> >>>Yogesh, >>> >>>Some years ago I did a study on famous sportsmen expecting to a >>>find statistically high level of exalted Mars. What I found >>>surprised me, in that frequently pre eminent sportsmen in fact >>>had debilitated Mars. Pondering on this I suspected that they >>>had some type of weakness in a certain area, and used the >>>principle of over-compensation to achieve success. >>> >>>In my own case I have a classical debilitated Mars, and I do have >>>a Martian problem. I have always lacked physical energy ie I >>>only have to push a lawn mower once across the lawn, and I feel >>>as though all my energy is vacating my body. In a few minutes I >>>feel as though I have run a marathon. As I matured I have >>>managed better, mainly by eliminating certain foods. >>>Nevertheless over the years I have compensated for bodily >>>dysfunction by engaging in mental pursuits. >>> >>>On reflection after studying many examples I came to the >>>conclusion that what exaltation and debilitation showed was a >>>specific gift or inclination, lack or deficiency. In other >>>words whilst the planet may function perfectly normal for most >>>purposes there is one area where it is abnormal. Thinking in >>>terms of KP it might be that where say Mars is significator for >>>the 1st, 5th and 10th houses, it may offer excellent results to >>>the 5th and 10th whilst giving poor results to the 1st. This >>>presumably would be seen in the quality of the sub or by malefic >>>association or aspect with reference to the 1st. ie. in KP we >>>might be able to see in what area an exalted or debilitated >>>planet functions best or worst. >>> >>>I find it interesting that in a way the author of 'Astrosecrets' >>>Pt 1 page 34 comes up with something similar but more limiting >>>idea than mine when he says " Ownership exaltation or debilitation >>>of planets are generally known responsible to indicate the >>>strength or weakness of a human body constitution from head to >>>foot, but does not take the responsibility to alter the results >>>to be offered, say good to bad or bad to good " . I personally >>>believe that it isn't specific to bodily condition, but can be >>>any area of life. The crux of the matter appears to me be that >>>the planet shows a specific limited abnormality - in the normally >>>accepted qualities of that planet. >>> >>>When I get the time I will have a look and see if I can find some >>>examples that might show exaltation/debilitation in KP. >>> >>> >>>Ron Gaunt >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:44:09 +0000, you wrote: >>> >>>>Dear Ron, >>>> The following is being submitted,for yours and the group's serious consideration...and I invite specific examples,in your experiences, clearly illustrating the practical use, of exaltation/debilitation,in predictive K.P.astrology... >>>> >>>> Here's a quote from Astrosecrets & K.P., p.35... >>>> >>>> " To say of exaltation,ownership or debilitation,simply on the entering of a Rasi(sign) is not correct,in a sign,in a particular star,in a particular degree-minute only,as the planet moves should be reckoned for exaltation,or debilitation etc... " (italics mine) >>>> >>>> It is thus important to note that exaltation and debilitation has been defined in star and sub terms...and in a particular degree-minute only, as you have quoted... >>>> Also,more importantly,it is clearly stated that exaltation or debilitation does not change/alter the nature of the result...in terms of being benefic or malefic...at the most,it will either hasten or slow down the result...! ! >>>> >>>> Therefore I wonder, " in practical terms " how much difference does this really make...and,if so, how can one measure this " accelleration and decelleration,in the number of hours/days/months..etc.. " .? >>>> If these differences are not quantifiable...simply saying a planet is exalted/debilatated...and therefore...? ? (what do you suggest, we say...which is measureable/quantifiable ?) >>>> >>>> Hence exaltation/debilitation are recognised theoretically (?),in K.P.,but no quantifiable and practical use is given...! ? (This is my personal opinion and also born out of experience). >>>> >>>> I therefore feel that exaltation/debilitation are good points only to debate about...and perhaps put forward to justify a successful or failed prediction ? ? >>>> >>>> Personally I hold a similar view on the various " avasthas " ...of planets...as being more of an academic value...in my experience... >>>> >>>> As I have said earlier,astrology should be of practical use,to both,the consultant/client as well as the astrologer...and it must also felt by readers to be truly useful,in practice... >>>> >>>> With regards, >>>> Yours sincerely, >>>> lyrastro1 >>>> GOOD LUCK ! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>rongaunt <rongaunt wrote: >>>> >>>>To all members, >>>> >>>>I haven't yet got round to even skimming through some of the many >>>>KP books I have received, so I do not know whether KP relegates >>>>or ignores the question of assessing the qualities of each >>>>individual planet. I would imagine that somewhere in the >>>>literature this point is covered. Meanwhile I use my previous >>>>learning to assess the quality of a sub and its likely outcomes. >>>> >>>>What I am leading to is the point made, that KP does not consider >>>>exaltation and debilitation. In 'Astrosecrets & Krishnamurti >>>>Padhadhati' April 2003 Edition pages 34 to 38 details when >>>>exaltation and debilitation ARE considered. The gist of it >>>>appears to be that they are considered when the planet is in the >>>>same sub as the highest point of exaltation or debilitation. >>>> >>>> >>>>Ron Gaunt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 15:46:06 +0000, you wrote: >>>> >>>>>Dear Sandy, >>>>> I second your suggestion...let us " keep it simple " ,for the obvious ease of access...and reduced 'navigation'...possibly required... >>>>> Also, we will all operate under the k_p_group umbrella...and thus remain on an easily identifiable as well as accessible site... >>>>> My use of the computer is very limited indeed,restricted to K.P., and surfing BBC,CNN and the usual Samachar ...hence my computer " skills " (if you can call them so...) are minimal...indeed. >>>>> I hope the " computer experts " will bear with me... >>>>> With best wishes, >>>>> lyrastro1 >>>>> GOOD LUCK ! >>>>> >>>>>Sandy Crowther <sandy wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Dear tw, Anant, Kanak, lyastro 1, Punit Pandey, and ALL (hopefully I didn’t miss anyone), >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Thank you all very much for sharing your knowledge, experience, research, opinions, references, and comments to my (often) endless questions on KP, and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to do so. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>And to my delight, some of you even threw in a few “extra” tidbits of KP information that I found extremely interesting – and matters that I was not at all aware of KP’s stance on - so thanks very much for elaborating. For example, I had no idea that exaltation and debilitation were not considered in KP – that only retrogression is considered. So considerations of planets being hosted by a friend or enemy - or their compound relationships - obviously have no place in KP due to emphasis and placement of star and sub lords taking precedence. But if Vargottama IS referenced in a few of the 6 KP Readers as a viable and acceptable Rasi companion for planetary assessments in KP, specifically used for assessing planetary strength as mentioned, the Navamsa chart MUST be referenced at some level - Right? I mean, we cannot have Vargottama without Navamsa (Uh-oh – Here we go with that 4 letter word again “amsa” J). So anyway, I’m now off to do a bit of KP research myself - hopefully >sometime >>>>> today. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I think we ALL need to be on the same page as far as what is and isn’t an accepted part of KP to date – and then be able to back up with references in at least one of the 6 KP Readers. (Just my not so humble opinion guys J). I know as astrologers, we will always have our own style and preferences when it comes to chart analysis and delineation – which we should have – we are all individuals. But it looks to me like many things are still wide open for research – Ooohhh - I only wish there were more hours in the day. Anyway – Thanks so much again to everyone… >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>P.S. To Ron Gaunt: I think your idea of opening another KP list, is a suggestion put forth with a pioneering spirit in mind of your greatness for researching techniques to attain predictive accuracy – which you know I’m certainly ALL FOR – BUT - 7 months ago I vowed to never to another list due to time constraints – and here I am. I cannot handle another list’s email at this time. J Perhaps a more viable solution (if moderator approved here on this KP list) would be to simply add a rider (or addendum) to the bottom of any chart assessment posted on this list, where an analysis has been done correctly, but a KP technique was not used in that particular part of the assessment of the chart to reach that correct result, and then clearly stating that the method used is not an accepted part of KP, just a particular technique you personally found reliably consistent for predictive purposes – like your usage of Solar Eclipses. That way it is left up to the list member to either >>>>> accept or reject the technique because it is or is not KP approved, read it or not at the bottom of the email, and there is no confusion as to what is and isn’t (to date) an accepted part of KP. And at the same time, we need not be silenced, as individual astrologers, for sharing a technique that is not part of KP – as long as it is in rider/attachment form. This would accommodate all minds on the list. (You and the list all know that we, as astrologers, will NEVER stop using what works for us J – even if we are silenced from sharing how we (personally) reached the correct conclusion - so this is just a suggestion to accommodate everyone under one KP forum.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>My 2 cents – but totally up to the Moderators of this list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All the Best, >>>>> >>>>> Sandy Crowther >>>>> >>>>> http://www.jupitersweb.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.