Guest guest Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 Respected Varun ji, Is there a uniform method to study the Lal Kitab system ? If so, could you please share with us. I would love to have some tips from you, as to how one should go about studying the Lal Kitab. With respect, Girish Raheja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Shri Varun ji, I have met some Lal Kitabists who insist that the Lal Kitab system is entirely different from the Vedic astrology. They further insist that the two should be kept apart and not allowed to intermingle. Where as you insist that in order to understand the Lal Kitab system better one should be well versed in the Vedic astrology too. Ranbir Tokas , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > Respected Raheja ji, > > There can not be any one single uniform technique to > study any subject or for that matter any text such that > which could be uniformly applicable / useful to every > student. Each student develops his own method of > study which suits him. However there could be very > general guidelines for handling a subject which could > be used by every one to their benefit. > > Therefore all I can share is the way we studied the > Lal Kitab, under the guidance of our Guru Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji. > > [ 1 ] First and foremost thing to learn the Lal Kitab system > is that one has to be very well versed in Vedic astrology; > with all aspects of it including the mathematics of it. > Knowledge of the traditional Vedic astrology is a must > in order to be a good Lal Kitab scholar. As a matter of > fact, Lal Kitab was written for the astrologers of that time, > and there was no other system except the Vedic Astrology > system prevalent in those days. > > [ 2 ] Start with Pt. Krishna Ashant ji’s books [a] Prashthabhoomi > evam vyakhya trik bhavano ki gatha. These two books > introduce the subject in its correct perspective. These books > also act as a link between the traditional Vedic astrology and > the Lal Kitab. Unless you start with these two books, you will > not make a head or tail of the Lal Kitab, and you might get > frustrated and might leave studying the book altogether. > > These two books are a must like an appetizer before a > sumptuous meal. Once you have gone through these books, > the ground is prepared for you to move to the original text. > > [ 3 ] After you have read the two books mentioned above, > start reading the original Lal Kitab books with the Hindi > transliteration of the 1941 edition by Pt. Yograj Prabhakar. > During the first reading of this book, just read through the > prose text ; do not bother about the poetic couplets. > Read through the couplets but do not strain your brain > to understand them. > > The second reading should be done along with the poetic > couplets too. At places it will be difficult to understand > what they mean. Do not get stuck up with them. There are > quite a few couplets which we have not been able to > understand till today, in spite of having read the book > over a dozen of times. > > > [ 4 ] After having done at least two readings of the 1941 ed. > Move on to the 1942 edition. Although there is no authentic > transliteration of this edition available till today, you have no > option but to start with the Arun Sanhita. Better still that you > wait for a couple of months for an authentic version to hit the > book stalls. If you have some time in between, you might do > a third reading of the 1941 edition. > > While reading the first original text, you should inculcate > the habit of taking down notes. It will be useful to make your > own list of the karakatwa of various planets in various houses. > Later you could use it as a ready reckoner. > > [ 5 ] 1942 book is a very important book. At places we have > found it to be better than the 1952 edition. This is a big book > and will need a lot of time reading it. Go ahead and read through > the text and the couplets with equal attention. Most of the > couplets would be very similar to the ones you had already > read in the 1941 edition, and therefore you will not find the > couplets alien. > > Even otherwise by now you will be familiar > with the language and the style in which the Lal Kitab is written. > It will be an easy reading, and interesting too. > 1942 edition will be a book which you might keep referring to > very often. Therefore it needs the utmost attention. Two complete > readings are a must. Later on, rather much later, you will be > flipping through the book more often than you can ever imagine. > > [ 6 ] Now is the time to move on to the 1952 edition. This is the > last and the most exhaustive editions of the Lal Kitab. Currently > only Arun Sanhita version is available; but by the time you > would come to read it, an authentic version might hit the book > stalls. > > Except for the grammar portion of the book, the rest of it will > be very familiar to you. In the beginning leave the grammar > portion, if you try understanding it you might get frustrated > and might develop an aversion to the book. Just read through > the rest of the book. By now you will not only be familiar with > the language, the style and the idioms of the book, you would > also get familiar with the system of delineation. > > Get to the grammar portion at the end. By now you would have > understood what the Lal Kitab is all about. Grammar portion is > one section which is not only poorly written, it appears to be a > haphazard attempt. Nothing is systematic about it. We have not > been able to understand a very large portion of it till today. But > never bother about it. The portions you do not understand leave > them, because you can handle the horoscopes even without having > to understand those portions. You can always fill in the gaps > with your knowledge of the Vedic astrology > > This is true for the entire Lal Kitab system. > If you want to be a successful Lal Kitab scholar, you may > have to keep drawing from the knowledge of the vedic > astrology more often than you can imagine. Most of the > contemporary problems can not be understood or ‘samadhan’ > suggested without the help of the Vedic astrology. > > The Lal Kitab system is complimentary to the vedic astrology. > It is not an independent system in itself; it is a sub-set of the > vedic astrology system. Therefore the knowledge gaps of > Lal Kitab system can be very easily made up for through > the vedic astrology. > > [ 7 ] The 1939 and the 1940 editions should be read at the last. > By this time you would also be able to determine for yourself > what to read and how to read. > > [ 8 ] About this time you can also read a few books written on the > Lal Kitab. You will by now be able to discern the good from the > bad also. > > > Regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > , " girish_raheja " > <girish_raheja@> wrote: > > > > Respected Varun ji, > > > > Is there a uniform method to study the Lal Kitab system ? If so, > could > > you please share with us. > > I would love to have some tips from you, as to how one should go > about > > studying the Lal Kitab. > > > > With respect, > > > > Girish Raheja > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2008 Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 Shri varun ji, Then why do some Lal Kitab followers insist that the Vedic system should be kept apart from the Lal Kitab system? Sincerely, Ranbir Tokas , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > > Respected Ranbir ji, > > There is only one astrology system prevalent in India which > is based on Niryan concept and is known as Indian Vedic > astrology. The other one is the Sayan based and is known > as western astrology. > > All subsystems, like Parashari, Jamini, Naadi, Lal Kitab,KP, > or SA are part of the same Niryan based Indian astrology. > > Therefore it is quite logical that one should know the source > of that knowledge before studying a sub system which is > basically complimentary to the mother source. And hence > the knowledge of the Vedic astrology will be a must for > learning Lal Kitab system > > Lal Kitab adds a few new dimensions to the existing > knowledge of Vedic astrology. And one has to assimilate > these new dimensions into the mother source. All > Lal Kitab concepts are within the parameters or the > dictums of the Vedic astrology. None of them are at > variance with the well established traditional dictums. > > As for mingling, it would be unproductive if two > such systems are mixed which are opposite to each > other or are at variance with one another. But in > the case of the Lal Kitab it is a sub system of the > great mother system known as Indian Vedic astrology. > > How could a part mingling with the whole be > wrong or undesirable? > > How could the Atma joining the Brahma be > termed as unproductive or counter productive? > > On the contrary mingling strengthens the sub > system further. > > Regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > , " ranbir.tokas " > <ranbir.tokas@> wrote: > > > > Shri Varun ji, > > > > I have met some Lal Kitabists who insist that the Lal Kitab system > > is entirely different from the Vedic astrology. They further > insist > > that the two should be kept apart and not allowed to intermingle. > > Where as you insist that in order to understand the Lal Kitab > system > > better one should be well versed in the Vedic astrology too. > > > > Ranbir Tokas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " varun_trvd " > > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > > > Respected Raheja ji, > > > > > > There can not be any one single uniform technique to > > > study any subject or for that matter any text such that > > > which could be uniformly applicable / useful to every > > > student. Each student develops his own method of > > > study which suits him. However there could be very > > > general guidelines for handling a subject which could > > > be used by every one to their benefit. > > > > > > Therefore all I can share is the way we studied the > > > Lal Kitab, under the guidance of our Guru Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji. > > > > > > [ 1 ] First and foremost thing to learn the Lal Kitab system > > > is that one has to be very well versed in Vedic astrology; > > > with all aspects of it including the mathematics of it. > > > Knowledge of the traditional Vedic astrology is a must > > > in order to be a good Lal Kitab scholar. As a matter of > > > fact, Lal Kitab was written for the astrologers of that time, > > > and there was no other system except the Vedic Astrology > > > system prevalent in those days. > > > > > > [ 2 ] Start with Pt. Krishna Ashant ji’s books [a] > Prashthabhoomi > > > evam vyakhya trik bhavano ki gatha. These two books > > > introduce the subject in its correct perspective. These books > > > also act as a link between the traditional Vedic astrology and > > > the Lal Kitab. Unless you start with these two books, you will > > > not make a head or tail of the Lal Kitab, and you might get > > > frustrated and might leave studying the book altogether. > > > > > > These two books are a must like an appetizer before a > > > sumptuous meal. Once you have gone through these books, > > > the ground is prepared for you to move to the original text. > > > > > > [ 3 ] After you have read the two books mentioned above, > > > start reading the original Lal Kitab books with the Hindi > > > transliteration of the 1941 edition by Pt. Yograj Prabhakar. > > > During the first reading of this book, just read through the > > > prose text ; do not bother about the poetic couplets. > > > Read through the couplets but do not strain your brain > > > to understand them. > > > > > > The second reading should be done along with the poetic > > > couplets too. At places it will be difficult to understand > > > what they mean. Do not get stuck up with them. There are > > > quite a few couplets which we have not been able to > > > understand till today, in spite of having read the book > > > over a dozen of times. > > > > > > > > > [ 4 ] After having done at least two readings of the 1941 ed. > > > Move on to the 1942 edition. Although there is no authentic > > > transliteration of this edition available till today, you have no > > > option but to start with the Arun Sanhita. Better still that you > > > wait for a couple of months for an authentic version to hit the > > > book stalls. If you have some time in between, you might do > > > a third reading of the 1941 edition. > > > > > > While reading the first original text, you should inculcate > > > the habit of taking down notes. It will be useful to make your > > > own list of the karakatwa of various planets in various houses. > > > Later you could use it as a ready reckoner. > > > > > > [ 5 ] 1942 book is a very important book. At places we have > > > found it to be better than the 1952 edition. This is a big book > > > and will need a lot of time reading it. Go ahead and read through > > > the text and the couplets with equal attention. Most of the > > > couplets would be very similar to the ones you had already > > > read in the 1941 edition, and therefore you will not find the > > > couplets alien. > > > > > > Even otherwise by now you will be familiar > > > with the language and the style in which the Lal Kitab is > written. > > > It will be an easy reading, and interesting too. > > > 1942 edition will be a book which you might keep referring to > > > very often. Therefore it needs the utmost attention. Two > complete > > > readings are a must. Later on, rather much later, you will be > > > flipping through the book more often than you can ever imagine. > > > > > > [ 6 ] Now is the time to move on to the 1952 edition. This is the > > > last and the most exhaustive editions of the Lal Kitab. Currently > > > only Arun Sanhita version is available; but by the time you > > > would come to read it, an authentic version might hit the book > > > stalls. > > > > > > Except for the grammar portion of the book, the rest of it will > > > be very familiar to you. In the beginning leave the grammar > > > portion, if you try understanding it you might get frustrated > > > and might develop an aversion to the book. Just read through > > > the rest of the book. By now you will not only be familiar with > > > the language, the style and the idioms of the book, you would > > > also get familiar with the system of delineation. > > > > > > Get to the grammar portion at the end. By now you would have > > > understood what the Lal Kitab is all about. Grammar portion is > > > one section which is not only poorly written, it appears to be a > > > haphazard attempt. Nothing is systematic about it. We have not > > > been able to understand a very large portion of it till today. > But > > > never bother about it. The portions you do not understand leave > > > them, because you can handle the horoscopes even without having > > > to understand those portions. You can always fill in the gaps > > > with your knowledge of the Vedic astrology > > > > > > This is true for the entire Lal Kitab system. > > > If you want to be a successful Lal Kitab scholar, you may > > > have to keep drawing from the knowledge of the vedic > > > astrology more often than you can imagine. Most of the > > > contemporary problems can not be understood or ‘samadhan’ > > > suggested without the help of the Vedic astrology. > > > > > > The Lal Kitab system is complimentary to the vedic astrology. > > > It is not an independent system in itself; it is a sub-set of > the > > > vedic astrology system. Therefore the knowledge gaps of > > > Lal Kitab system can be very easily made up for through > > > the vedic astrology. > > > > > > [ 7 ] The 1939 and the 1940 editions should be read at the last. > > > By this time you would also be able to determine for yourself > > > what to read and how to read. > > > > > > [ 8 ] About this time you can also read a few books written on > the > > > Lal Kitab. You will by now be able to discern the good from the > > > bad also. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " girish_raheja " > > > <girish_raheja@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Respected Varun ji, > > > > > > > > Is there a uniform method to study the Lal Kitab system ? If > so, > > > could > > > > you please share with us. > > > > I would love to have some tips from you, as to how one should > go > > > about > > > > studying the Lal Kitab. > > > > > > > > With respect, > > > > > > > > Girish Raheja > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Dear Varun ji, I have read both the books of Pt. Krishna Ashant ji. They have been of tremendous help in understanding the Lal Kitab. I also endorse that all those who want to study the Lal Kitab should read these two books recommended in the reading list. Both these books are simple and very easy to understand by those who are already familiar with the traditional Indian astrology. Sincerely, Rohit Sharma , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > Respected Raheja ji, > > There can not be any one single uniform technique to > study any subject or for that matter any text such that > which could be uniformly applicable / useful to every > student. Each student develops his own method of > study which suits him. However there could be very > general guidelines for handling a subject which could > be used by every one to their benefit. > > Therefore all I can share is the way we studied the > Lal Kitab, under the guidance of our Guru Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji. > > [ 1 ] First and foremost thing to learn the Lal Kitab system > is that one has to be very well versed in Vedic astrology; > with all aspects of it including the mathematics of it. > Knowledge of the traditional Vedic astrology is a must > in order to be a good Lal Kitab scholar. As a matter of > fact, Lal Kitab was written for the astrologers of that time, > and there was no other system except the Vedic Astrology > system prevalent in those days. > > [ 2 ] Start with Pt. Krishna Ashant ji’s books [a] Prashthabhoomi > evam vyakhya trik bhavano ki gatha. These two books > introduce the subject in its correct perspective. These books > also act as a link between the traditional Vedic astrology and > the Lal Kitab. Unless you start with these two books, you will > not make a head or tail of the Lal Kitab, and you might get > frustrated and might leave studying the book altogether. > > These two books are a must like an appetizer before a > sumptuous meal. Once you have gone through these books, > the ground is prepared for you to move to the original text. > > [ 3 ] After you have read the two books mentioned above, > start reading the original Lal Kitab books with the Hindi > transliteration of the 1941 edition by Pt. Yograj Prabhakar. > During the first reading of this book, just read through the > prose text ; do not bother about the poetic couplets. > Read through the couplets but do not strain your brain > to understand them. > > The second reading should be done along with the poetic > couplets too. At places it will be difficult to understand > what they mean. Do not get stuck up with them. There are > quite a few couplets which we have not been able to > understand till today, in spite of having read the book > over a dozen of times. > > > [ 4 ] After having done at least two readings of the 1941 ed. > Move on to the 1942 edition. Although there is no authentic > transliteration of this edition available till today, you have no > option but to start with the Arun Sanhita. Better still that you > wait for a couple of months for an authentic version to hit the > book stalls. If you have some time in between, you might do > a third reading of the 1941 edition. > > While reading the first original text, you should inculcate > the habit of taking down notes. It will be useful to make your > own list of the karakatwa of various planets in various houses. > Later you could use it as a ready reckoner. > > [ 5 ] 1942 book is a very important book. At places we have > found it to be better than the 1952 edition. This is a big book > and will need a lot of time reading it. Go ahead and read through > the text and the couplets with equal attention. Most of the > couplets would be very similar to the ones you had already > read in the 1941 edition, and therefore you will not find the > couplets alien. > > Even otherwise by now you will be familiar > with the language and the style in which the Lal Kitab is written. > It will be an easy reading, and interesting too. > 1942 edition will be a book which you might keep referring to > very often. Therefore it needs the utmost attention. Two complete > readings are a must. Later on, rather much later, you will be > flipping through the book more often than you can ever imagine. > > [ 6 ] Now is the time to move on to the 1952 edition. This is the > last and the most exhaustive editions of the Lal Kitab. Currently > only Arun Sanhita version is available; but by the time you > would come to read it, an authentic version might hit the book > stalls. > > Except for the grammar portion of the book, the rest of it will > be very familiar to you. In the beginning leave the grammar > portion, if you try understanding it you might get frustrated > and might develop an aversion to the book. Just read through > the rest of the book. By now you will not only be familiar with > the language, the style and the idioms of the book, you would > also get familiar with the system of delineation. > > Get to the grammar portion at the end. By now you would have > understood what the Lal Kitab is all about. Grammar portion is > one section which is not only poorly written, it appears to be a > haphazard attempt. Nothing is systematic about it. We have not > been able to understand a very large portion of it till today. But > never bother about it. The portions you do not understand leave > them, because you can handle the horoscopes even without having > to understand those portions. You can always fill in the gaps > with your knowledge of the Vedic astrology > > This is true for the entire Lal Kitab system. > If you want to be a successful Lal Kitab scholar, you may > have to keep drawing from the knowledge of the vedic > astrology more often than you can imagine. Most of the > contemporary problems can not be understood or ‘samadhan’ > suggested without the help of the Vedic astrology. > > The Lal Kitab system is complimentary to the vedic astrology. > It is not an independent system in itself; it is a sub-set of the > vedic astrology system. Therefore the knowledge gaps of > Lal Kitab system can be very easily made up for through > the vedic astrology. > > [ 7 ] The 1939 and the 1940 editions should be read at the last. > By this time you would also be able to determine for yourself > what to read and how to read. > > [ 8 ] About this time you can also read a few books written on the > Lal Kitab. You will by now be able to discern the good from the > bad also. > > > Regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > , " girish_raheja " > <girish_raheja@> wrote: > > > > Respected Varun ji, > > > > Is there a uniform method to study the Lal Kitab system ? If so, > could > > you please share with us. > > I would love to have some tips from you, as to how one should go > about > > studying the Lal Kitab. > > > > With respect, > > > > Girish Raheja > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Shri Trivedi ji, You have done a great service by sharing with us the way you studied Lal Kitab. I am already a professional astrologer and I follow the System's Approach by shri Chaudhery. In the SA also we recommend various remedies. These remedies are not exactly the same as in the Lal Kitab, but they are very similar. I have learnt, through your group, that the Lal Kitab remedies are based on logic. One may agree with that logic or not is a different matter. I intend to study the Lal Kitab system following your foot steps. Bless me so that I become successful. Thanking you in advance LM astro , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > Respected Raheja ji, > > There can not be any one single uniform technique to > study any subject or for that matter any text such that > which could be uniformly applicable / useful to every > student. Each student develops his own method of > study which suits him. However there could be very > general guidelines for handling a subject which could > be used by every one to their benefit. > > Therefore all I can share is the way we studied the > Lal Kitab, under the guidance of our Guru Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji. > > [ 1 ] First and foremost thing to learn the Lal Kitab system > is that one has to be very well versed in Vedic astrology; > with all aspects of it including the mathematics of it. > Knowledge of the traditional Vedic astrology is a must > in order to be a good Lal Kitab scholar. As a matter of > fact, Lal Kitab was written for the astrologers of that time, > and there was no other system except the Vedic Astrology > system prevalent in those days. > > [ 2 ] Start with Pt. Krishna Ashant ji’s books [a] Prashthabhoomi > evam vyakhya trik bhavano ki gatha. These two books > introduce the subject in its correct perspective. These books > also act as a link between the traditional Vedic astrology and > the Lal Kitab. Unless you start with these two books, you will > not make a head or tail of the Lal Kitab, and you might get > frustrated and might leave studying the book altogether. > > These two books are a must like an appetizer before a > sumptuous meal. Once you have gone through these books, > the ground is prepared for you to move to the original text. > > [ 3 ] After you have read the two books mentioned above, > start reading the original Lal Kitab books with the Hindi > transliteration of the 1941 edition by Pt. Yograj Prabhakar. > During the first reading of this book, just read through the > prose text ; do not bother about the poetic couplets. > Read through the couplets but do not strain your brain > to understand them. > > The second reading should be done along with the poetic > couplets too. At places it will be difficult to understand > what they mean. Do not get stuck up with them. There are > quite a few couplets which we have not been able to > understand till today, in spite of having read the book > over a dozen of times. > > > [ 4 ] After having done at least two readings of the 1941 ed. > Move on to the 1942 edition. Although there is no authentic > transliteration of this edition available till today, you have no > option but to start with the Arun Sanhita. Better still that you > wait for a couple of months for an authentic version to hit the > book stalls. If you have some time in between, you might do > a third reading of the 1941 edition. > > While reading the first original text, you should inculcate > the habit of taking down notes. It will be useful to make your > own list of the karakatwa of various planets in various houses. > Later you could use it as a ready reckoner. > > [ 5 ] 1942 book is a very important book. At places we have > found it to be better than the 1952 edition. This is a big book > and will need a lot of time reading it. Go ahead and read through > the text and the couplets with equal attention. Most of the > couplets would be very similar to the ones you had already > read in the 1941 edition, and therefore you will not find the > couplets alien. > > Even otherwise by now you will be familiar > with the language and the style in which the Lal Kitab is written. > It will be an easy reading, and interesting too. > 1942 edition will be a book which you might keep referring to > very often. Therefore it needs the utmost attention. Two complete > readings are a must. Later on, rather much later, you will be > flipping through the book more often than you can ever imagine. > > [ 6 ] Now is the time to move on to the 1952 edition. This is the > last and the most exhaustive editions of the Lal Kitab. Currently > only Arun Sanhita version is available; but by the time you > would come to read it, an authentic version might hit the book > stalls. > > Except for the grammar portion of the book, the rest of it will > be very familiar to you. In the beginning leave the grammar > portion, if you try understanding it you might get frustrated > and might develop an aversion to the book. Just read through > the rest of the book. By now you will not only be familiar with > the language, the style and the idioms of the book, you would > also get familiar with the system of delineation. > > Get to the grammar portion at the end. By now you would have > understood what the Lal Kitab is all about. Grammar portion is > one section which is not only poorly written, it appears to be a > haphazard attempt. Nothing is systematic about it. We have not > been able to understand a very large portion of it till today. But > never bother about it. The portions you do not understand leave > them, because you can handle the horoscopes even without having > to understand those portions. You can always fill in the gaps > with your knowledge of the Vedic astrology > > This is true for the entire Lal Kitab system. > If you want to be a successful Lal Kitab scholar, you may > have to keep drawing from the knowledge of the vedic > astrology more often than you can imagine. Most of the > contemporary problems can not be understood or ‘samadhan’ > suggested without the help of the Vedic astrology. > > The Lal Kitab system is complimentary to the vedic astrology. > It is not an independent system in itself; it is a sub-set of the > vedic astrology system. Therefore the knowledge gaps of > Lal Kitab system can be very easily made up for through > the vedic astrology. > > [ 7 ] The 1939 and the 1940 editions should be read at the last. > By this time you would also be able to determine for yourself > what to read and how to read. > > [ 8 ] About this time you can also read a few books written on the > Lal Kitab. You will by now be able to discern the good from the > bad also. > > > Regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > , " girish_raheja " > <girish_raheja@> wrote: > > > > Respected Varun ji, > > > > Is there a uniform method to study the Lal Kitab system ? If so, > could > > you please share with us. > > I would love to have some tips from you, as to how one should go > about > > studying the Lal Kitab. > > > > With respect, > > > > Girish Raheja > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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