River vs Canal water /samandar / Varun ji

[Guest guest]

Gurudev, what i am trying to convey is that if 9th house was taken as samandar then why can't dariya ka pani be denoted as house no4.

sincerely

kulbirbance

On 5/15/08, varun_trvd <varun_trvd wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Kulbir bhai,In that case the samandar was not used as a carrier of the karak object, some thing that carries away the effects. Instead it was used as denoting the 9th house. If you remember the upaya suugested

was to immerse in a samandar a silver figurine of a lady for venus placed in the 9th house.Yes, samandar as a huge store of water can be included.I hope I had understood your request correctly.

Regards,Varun Trivedi , " kulbirbance "

<kulbirbance wrote:>> Varun ji,> > it would be appropriate if the upaye of samandar as> written in kundali sent by umesh ji be included in this discusion> while determining taseer of water.

> > regards> > kulbirbance> > > > > , " varun_trvd "

> <varun_trvd@> wrote:> >> >> > Aadarneeya Mahajan ji,> >> >> >> > You have said "lk mein kahin na kahin zaroor likha hai,> > ki iss kitab ( lk ) mein jo upay likhe hain, sirf wohi karen,

apne> > aap na upay na banaye."> >> >> >> > We do not agree with that.> >> >> >> > To the best of our knowledge no such instructions are given

> >> > in the Book that a Lal Kitab scholar can not formulate a new> >> > upaya. The Lal Kitab upaya are not 'Jaadoo Tona' which> > have> >> > to stay as such and should not be modified or devised afresh.

> >> >> >> > I am afraid, it is this attitude of some Lal Kitab followers> which> >> > made other astrologers believe that the Lal Kitab is not a book> >

> > of astrology and instead it is a book of 'Totka & Tonas'.> > It is> >> > this general perception that we are trying hard to dispel.> >> >> >> > We do not treat the Lal Kitab as a closed system. We treat

> >> > Lal Kitab astrology as a living organism which grows. If any> >> > one treats this system as a closed system it will soon become> >> > a dogma and subsequently get fossilized. Therefore all such

> >> > upaya which have been devised according to the principles> >> > of the Lal Kitab are acceptable to us.> >> >> >> > Now coming to the concept of a River and a Canal.

> >> >> >> > We believe that the swabhav [ taaseer ] of the flowing water> >> > doesn't change in both these cases. In both the cases the> >> > flowing water stays the Karak of the moon. In both cases

> >> > the water is fresh. If there comes about a change, at least> >> > we do not know about it. And this is what we had asked you,> >> > what difference comes about in the taaseer of the water in

> >> > both the cases?> >> >> >> > Now let us talk about the dharma of the water. In both the> >> > cases the cooling property of the water remains the same.

> >> > The dharma of the flowing water is to carry an object away;> >> > distancing. This remains the same whether it is the flowing> >> > water of a river or a canal.

> >> >> >> > Therefore neither the swabhav nor the dharma changes.> >> > Then where is the difference. I think it is in our minds.> >> > Since the word 'dariyaa' river is used in the Book, we

> > want> >> > to keep sticking to that. Mentally we are not prepared to> >> > accept a canal as a substitute for a river.> >> >> >> > We have nothing against those who have such mental blocks.

> >> > For all we care, they could continue with their own precepts.> >> >> >> > In one of my messages yesterday I have already explained> >> > the purpose of immersing karak objects in flowing water.

> >> > The other possible purpose could have been of cooling or> >> > handing over to the Mother moon, but that is a separate matter.> >> >> >> > You have mentioned different forms of water. All of us are

> >> > aware of them. All of us are also aware how and for what> >> > these different forms of water have to be used. Except for> >> > the river / canal flowing water, no other form mentioned by

> >> > you is used for distancing the effect of a planet.> >> >> >> > You have not explained the difference between> >> > the flowing water of a canal and a river.

> >> > If you can not explain the difference then might> >> > as well accept the two being the same> >> >> >> > You have asked what a Lal Kitab scholar should do for

> >> > Venus 8th. The answer is simple:> >> >> >> > [ a ] make the jatak flush down the toilet a pink flower [ the> flower> >> > should not be white or yellow ] each day for 43 days. The book

> >> > doesn't mention this upaya. But this upaya is what one could> >> > get closest to throwing a flower into a sewage drain.> >> >> >> > Quite a few other alternatives to this upaya can be

> >> > devised with a very great ease.> >> >> >> > Regards,> >> >> >> > Varun Trivedi> >> >> >

> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > , " mts3434 " <mts3434@>

> > wrote:> > >> > > Namaskar> > > mein iss samay yahan par hoon , mere paas lk nahi hai. aap khud> hee> > > sochen ki Pt. jee ne dariya hee kyon likha hai. Baat rahi antar

> ki,> > > kee nehar aur dariya mein kya antar hai. Mein koshish karta hoon> ki> > > samjha sankoo. Aapke brabr na to mere paas gyan hai, na hee mein> apne> > > aapko gyani samjhata hoon. lk mein kahin na kahin zaroor likha

> hai,> > > ki iss kitab ( lk ) mein jo upay likhe hain, sirf wohi karen,> apne> > > aap na upay na banaye.> > > Agar aap iss baat ko manege to yeh bhee manana padega ki dariya

> aur> > > nehar mein antar hota hai, ya hai. Kyonki lk mein kai jagah par> likha> > > hai ki yeh upay ( dariya mein bahaye/dariya ka pani aadi )varna> clear> > > kiya hai ki pani mein bahaye ( saaf pani jo ki nehar ho sakti

> hai ).> > > Jaise ki for example aap dahi (curd ) likha hai to aap dahi ka> hee> > > istemaal karen. Aap dahi ko mixer mein ek circle chala de ya aap> dahi> > > ko madhani achhi tarah se ghuma de, lekin usmein water, salt ya

> sugar> > > na milaye to bhee woh dahi nahi rahega. aap usse lassi hee> kahenge (> > > thick lassi )iss tarah ke aur bhee example diye ja sakte hain ki> kisi> > > mein kuchh nahi milaya lekin uski tasir ya naam badal gaya.

> > > Aise hee dariya se nehar, nehar se sua ( yeh punjabi ka word hai> > > jiska matlab saaf pani ka nala bhee keh sakte hai) jo ki village> mein> > > aam mil jata hai, kheti badi wali zameen ko pani ke liye .

nehar> aur> > > sua dono naam alag hai aise hee dariya ka matlab dariya hai koi> aur> > > nahi ( matlab ki nehar nahi ) lk mein pani ka bahut hee imprtant> role> > > hai pani kee alag alag kisme aapko milegi jaise ki

> > > 1... Dariya ka paani--> > > 2... meenh ka paani ( Rain water )> > > 3... Shamshan ka paani> > > 4... Gangajal> > > 5... Chhapr ka paani ( shani khan no 6 )

> > > 6... Gandanala ( shukar khana no 8 ) yeh paani nahi lekin issme> ganda> > > paani to behta hee hai> > > agar aur bhee kuchh ho to aap samjha dein . aapki bahut meharbani

> > > hogi.> > > dhanyawad.> > > mahajan> > > P.S..... aajkal shehron mein gandanala nahi milta to yeh bataye> ki> > > aaplog phul/tambe ka paise kismein girwate ho (shukar-8 )

> > >> > > In , " varun_trvd "

varun_trvd@> > > wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Kulbir Bhai,> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > This is yet another fallacy created by Lal Kitab semi-

> literates.> > > >> > > > The fact is that immersing some thing in flowing water> > > >> > > > is not associated with the 4th house in any way. Immersing

> > > >> > > > some thing in flowing water simply means distancing the> > > >> > > > effect of the planet.> > > >> > > >> > > >

> > > > Let us see what Pt. Roopchand ji has to say about it. I am> > > >> > > > quoting two statements from the book:> > > >> > > >> > > >

> > > > Mithai, meetha bhojan daan karen ya batashe dariyaa mein dalen> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Mooli daan karen ya koyale dariyaa mein baha den

> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Now you can see for yourself that donating or gifting away> > > >> > > > has been used synonymously to drifting away in flowing water.

> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > The purpose is obvious, to distance away.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > These statements occur in both the 1942 and 1952 editions.

> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Varun Trivedi> > > >

> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >

> > > >> > > > , " kulbirbance "

> > > > <kulbirbance@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Gurudev Umesh Sharma ji,> > > > >> > > > > ise to aap hi spasht karenge, hum to aapki likhi kitabein

> > > > > padhte hain, hum aapko kya spashtikaran denge, kripya aap ki> kasht> > > > > karein.> > > > >> > > > > regards> > > > >

> > > > > kulbirbance> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > , " Umesh Sharma "

> > > > > mudit982001@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Respected Mahajan ji,> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dariya main, ya nadi main, ya canal main Bahane ke upay

se> aap> > > ka> > > > > > kya tatprya hai? kya isse koi grah kisi ghar main sthapit> hota> > > hey> > > > > > ya kuch aur hai? kripya kya aap esko spashat karainge?

> > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks in Advance.> > > > > >> > > > > > Umesh Sharma> > > > > >> > > > > >

> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > , " varun_trvd "

> > > > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Aadarneeya Mahajan ji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ap ne likha hai

> > > > > > >> > > > > > > " kyonki darya aur nehar ya chalta hua pani (saaf ) mein> bahut> > > > > > > antar hai, kulbir jee samajh gaye hain. "

> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Mein yeh antar nahi samajh paya ki bahate dariya ke> paani aur> > > > > > bahate> > > > > > > nahar ke paani mein kya antar ho sakta hai?

> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dono kism ke paani ki taseer kaise badal jatee hai?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Kyonki jab tak taseer nahi badalti tab tak upaya ke

> prabhav> > > mein> > > > > > > farq nahi padna chahiye. Aur agar paani ki taseer vahi> rahati> > > hai> > > > > > [> > > > > > > yani dono Chadra ke karak ] to phir chahe nadi ka paani

> ho ya> > > > > > nahar> > > > > > > ka, koi farq nahi padega.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Kripya ap hi bata den ki yah antar kya hai? aur kyon

> hua ?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Aur agar Kulbir bhai samajh gaye hen to Kulbir bhai hi> bata> > > den.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Doosare prashna ka uttar to ap ne diya hi nahi. Surya 4

> ke> > > samay> > > > > > > rahu ki ashiya na bahayee jaye aisa kahan kaha hai?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Saadar sahit,> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Varun Trivedi> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > , " mts3434 "

> > > <mts3434@>> > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Varun jee> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > baat yeh hai ki darya pandit jee ne kyon likha, behta

> pani> > > kyon> > > > > > > nahi> > > > > > > > likha. kyonki darya aur nehar ya chalta hua pani> (saaf )> > > mein> > > > > > bahut

> > > > > > > > antar hai, kulbir jee samajh gaye hain.> > > > > > > > ab budh khana 9 mein dekhe, wahan unhone likha hai ki> darya> > > ke> > > > > > pani

> > > > > > > > ke cheente kapde par maare ya darya ke pani se kapde> dhoye (> > > > > kora> > > > > > > > suit ). yahan par bhee woh nehar ka pani likh sakte

> thei.ya> > > > > apne> > > > > > > > kapde nehar mein dhoye( ya nehar ke paani ke cheente> mare )> > > abb> > > > > > > mein

> > > > > > > > yahan par hoon wahan par mere paas lk nahi hai, nahi> to mein> > > > > > page> > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > ka udaaran de ke batata. lk mein kai jagah likha hua

> aapko> > > mil> > > > > > > > jayega ki upay aap behtey hue paani mein kare (> pravah ) ya> > > > > kisi> > > > > > > > jagah yeh saaf likha milega ki darya mein pravah

> karen. mere> > > > > > khayal> > > > > > > > mein yahan darya likha wahan aapko darya mein hee upay> karna> > > > > > > chahiye

> > > > > > > > yahan chalta paani likha ho wahan aap darya / nehar> mein> > > karwa> > > > > > > sakte> > > > > > > > hain. baki aap sab mujhse zyada samazdar hain. meri

aap> > > logo ke> > > > > > > aage> > > > > > > > kya aukat. meri adat likhne ki kum hai, issliye kai> baar> > > apni> > > > > > baat

> > > > > > > > sahi tarike se explain nahi kar pata. discuss kare to> sahi> > > > > > tarike> > > > > > > se> > > > > > > > samjha sakta hoon. mera phone no shayad kulbir jee se

> mil> > > > > > > jayega.aap> > > > > > > > se baat karke ya mil kar bahut khushi hogi.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > mahajan

> > > > > > > > --- In> , " varun_trvd "

> > > > > > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Respected Kulbir Bhai,> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > When a karak object of a planet is immersed in> flowing> > > water,> > > > > > it> > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > assumed that the effect of the planet has been

> distanced> > > > > away.> > > > > > > > > Flowing water is a medium or a carrier of the karak> > > object.> > > > > > > > > Therefore so long as the water is flowing water, as

> > > against> > > > > > > > stagnant> > > > > > > > > water,it should be good enough.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > It hardly makes a difference whether the flowing

> water is> > > of> > > > > a> > > > > > > > river> > > > > > > > > or a canal so long as the water carries away the> karak

> > > object> > > > > > of> > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > planet.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > --- In> , " kulbirbance "

> > > > > > > > > <kulbirbance@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > respected Mahajan Sahib;> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > the copncept of dariya and canal appealed> > > > > > > > > > to me. dariya is a natural running source of water> but> > > in

> > > > > > case> > > > > > > > of a> > > > > > > > > > canal, water is first stored; read stopped, then> sent in> > > > > > > > > > artificially created chanel, varun ji can

> elaborare on> > > this> > > > > > > > issue> > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > detail, but it appealled to me.

> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > thanks> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > kulbirbance

> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- In> , " mts3434 "

> > > > > > > <mts3434@>> > > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > varun jee/ kulbir jee/ gill jee

> > > > > > > > > > > kripya yeh bhee dhayan rakhe ki jab> led/sikka/ranga> > > > > dariya> > > > > > me> > > > > > > > > > pravah

> > > > > > > > > > > kar rahen ho uss samay suraj ( sun ) khana> number 4> > > mein> > > > > na> > > > > > > > ho .> > > > > > > > > > ya

> > > > > > > > > > > jis saal yeh upay karna ho uss saal suraj khana> no. 4> > > > > mein> > > > > > na> > > > > > > > ho.

> > > > > > > > > > > aur yeh upay driya mein hee karna hai nehar mein> > > nahi.yeh> > > > > > to> > > > > > > > hai

> > > > > > > > > > > upay baki aur bhee kai baaton ka dhayan rakhna> hota> > > hai,> > > > > > > jaise> > > > > > > > ki

> > > > > > > > > > > chhat na badle, ghar ki dahleej pujna (south> face )> > > wale> > > > > ke> > > > > > > > liye> > > > > > > > > > > jaroori hai.

> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > mahajan> > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > , " gill_hs2005 "

> > > > > > > > > > > <gill_hs2005@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Varun ji and kulbir ji,

> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Sirs, thank you such a brilliant and detailed> > > > > > explanation.> > > > > > > I

> > > > > > > > am> > > > > > > > > > > > grateful for that.> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > With respect,

> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > HS Gill> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In

> , " kulbir> > > > > > bance "

> > > > > > > > > > > > <kulbirbance@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gurudev,

> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for this detailed explanation, i agree> > > > > totally.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > sincerely> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > kulbirbance> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/4/08, varun_trvd <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Gill Saheb,> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the first place let us understand that

> the> > > upaya> > > > > > you> > > > > > > > > have> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned, immersing 8 itmes either as

> 4pieces> > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lead + 4 nariyals or 8 pieces of Lead,

is a> > > > > devised> > > > > > > > upaya> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > i.e. it has been devised by the Lal Kitab

> > > > > astrologers> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > themselves. *This upaya is not mentioned

> in the> > > > > > book.*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain:> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Rahu # 8:*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1941 edition : No mention of this upaya

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1942 edition : No mention of this upaya> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1952 edition : page 674 note # 5> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > " khote sikke [kharabshuda aur mande] jin> ki> > > bazaar

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mein kuchh keemat na ho aur zameen pat> takarane> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > se bilkul awaj na ho [ ya> sikka,seesa,lead ]> > > dariya> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > mein dalte jana mubarik hoga [ taqreeban 8> sikke> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ya har roj ek taqreeban 43 din]

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [The book mentions 8 counterfeit coins in

> one> > > day> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a coin each day for 43 days. It> mentions Lead

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or sikka or seesa too but it is probably> in the> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > context of the coins]> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Rahu # 11*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1941 edition : no mention

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1942 edition : no mention> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1952 edition : no mention> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *But the Hindi transliteration of 1942> edition *> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *[ Arun sanhita ] has added on its own :*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Rahu 8th : aath tukade sikke ke jinka> vazan> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12 kilo ho dariya mein dalen> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Rahu 11th : 4 kilo sikka tatha 4 pooja> vale> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nariyal dariya mein dalen> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the upaya of immersing 8 pieces of> Lead /> > > > > Nariyal

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a mix there of is a perfectly logically> > > devised> > > > > > > upaya.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As Kulbir Ji has mentioned, Pt. Krishna> Ashant> > > ji &

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amrita Preetam ji in their book " *Trik> > > bhavanon ki

> > > > > > > > gatha* " > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have given a rationale of this upaya. Pt.

> > > Krishna> > > > > > > > Ashant> > > > > > > > > ji> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintains that the total quantity should

> be 8 in> > > > > > value> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > where as it can be cut into pieces of 8,

> or 10> > > or> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > depending on the house affected.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Now let me explain the logic of this

> upaya*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > * as we have understood it :*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The most important thing to remember is

> that> > > this> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > devised upaya is done only for Rahu in

8th> and> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 11th and for no other house.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second thing to remember is the figure

of 8> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > in both the case. Therefore this figure is> not> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > related to the house the Rahu is posited> in.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that were so then the figure of 8

would> not> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have been there for rahu in the 11th. It> would

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > have been 11 instead.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Now does some thing ring a bell in the

> mind ?*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a figure of 8 be related to the 8th> house> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the 11th house?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, let me tell you.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is moved 8 steps away.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is the 8th house from the 8th?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And which is the 8th house from the 11th?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer is the 3rd and the 6th.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now by immersing a piece each day or

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > immersing 8 pieces the same day for Rahu in> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8th, where does it take Rahu to?> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To the 3rd house of course.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, immersing 8 pieces for a rahu

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > placed in the 11th where would it take it> to?> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To the 6th house of course.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now Rahu can not be better placed than

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > being in the 3rd or the 6th.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Therefore the purpose of the upaya is

to *> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > *distance the Rahu such that it gets based*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > * in the best houses it can ever be.*> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now let me explain another issue that> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kulbir ji has raised.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should the Nariyal be the one with water> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or the one which is completely dry.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In our opinion the Nariyal should be> completely> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dry because the Nariyal is an ashiya of> Shani.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thing with water [ moon ] can not be

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > an ashiya of Shani. The Nariyal used in> pooja> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the one which is dry. Even otherwise> Shani> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is considered a 'shushka grah' a dry

> planet.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gill Saheb, it is not coconut. Coconut is> the> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > kernel. For upaya it is the Nariyal,

which> is> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole of it with coir intact.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was definitely a very beautiful query.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In

> > > > > > > , " kulbirbance "

> > > > > > > > > > > > <kulbirbance@>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gill sahib,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pt. Krishan ashant has beautifully

> explained> > > rahu> > > > > > 11> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remedy in his book but your question has> > > posed a

> > > > > > new> > > > > > > > > > > question> > > > > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me. i.e. shouls the 4 nariyals be

sookhe> > > khadkte> > > > > > hue> > > > > > > or> > > > > > > > > > > > containing> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > water. i am in favour of cocunuts

> containing> > > > > water> > > > > > > > > because> > > > > > > > > > > > water is> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > entraped in the shell. lets see what

> varun ji> > > has> > > > > > to> > > > > > > > say> > > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regard. indeed very logical question has> been> > > put> > > > > > > > forward> > > > > > > > > > by

> > > > > > > > > > > > your> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goodself.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sinccerely> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kulbirbance

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > > > > > > , " gill_hs2005 "

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gill_hs2005@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sirs,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Rahu there are different remedy> > > suggested

> > > > > for> > > > > > > > each> > > > > > > > > > > house> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for house 8th and the 11th. For both> these> > > > > > houses> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > remedy

> > > > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > same. In both cases 8 pieces have

been> > > advised> > > > > to> > > > > > > > flow> > > > > > > > > > > into a> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > river.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It could be 4 pieces of ranga and 4> > > coconuts,> > > > > or> > > > > > 8> > > > > > > > > > pieces

> > > > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ranga.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either way the total is 8 pieces.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sir I can understand 8 pieces thrown in> > > flowing> > > > > > > water> > > > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu in> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8th house but what is the logic of

> throwing> > > 8> > > > > > > pieces> > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > > > rahu in> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11th.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully,

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HS Gill> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >

> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Varun ji,Sir, I quote the Farmaan N0.7 of 1952's edition of L K.Dharamsthan:Dharam palan, pooja-Path, Ishat-Sidhi, har majhab ke liye apni shardhaa ki jagah aur Nastik ke liye chalta darya, Nadi va shani ka chouraha hi dharma sthan ka kaam dengey.To kya bhav No.2 ko bhi l;iya jaye ? Regards Umesh Sharma

 

 

, "kulbir bance" <kulbirbance wrote:>> Gurudev, > > what i am trying to convey is that if 9th house was taken as> samandar then why can't dariya ka pani be denoted as house no4.> > sincerely> > kulbirbance> > > > > > > > > > > On 5/15/08, varun_trvd varun_trvd wrote:> >> > Dear Kulbir bhai,> >> > In that case the samandar was not used as a carrier of the karak> > object, some thing that carries away the effects. Instead it was> > used as denoting the 9th house. If you remember the upaya suugested> > was to immerse in a samandar a silver figurine of a lady for venus> > placed in the 9th house.> >> > Yes, samandar as a huge store of water can be included.> >> > I hope I had understood your request correctly.> >> > Regards,> >> > Varun Trivedi> >> > <%40>,> > "kulbirbance"> > kulbirbance@ wrote:> > >> > > Varun ji,> > >> > > it would be appropriate if the upaye of samandar as> > > written in kundali sent by umesh ji be included in this discusion> > > while determining taseer of water.> > >> > > regards> > >> > > kulbirbance> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > <%40>,> > "varun_trvd"> > > <varun_trvd@> wrote:> > > >> > > >> > > > Aadarneeya Mahajan ji,> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > You have said "lk mein kahin na kahin zaroor likha hai,> > > > ki iss kitab ( lk ) mein jo upay likhe hain, sirf wohi karen,> > apne> > > > aap na upay na banaye."> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > We do not agree with that.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > To the best of our knowledge no such instructions are given> > > >> > > > in the Book that a Lal Kitab scholar can not formulate a new> > > >> > > > upaya. The Lal Kitab upaya are not 'Jaadoo Tona' which> > > > have> > > >> > > > to stay as such and should not be modified or devised afresh.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > I am afraid, it is this attitude of some Lal Kitab followers> > > which> > > >> > > > made other astrologers believe that the Lal Kitab is not a book> > > >> > > > of astrology and instead it is a book of 'Totka & Tonas'.> > > > It is> > > >> > > > this general perception that we are trying hard to dispel.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > We do not treat the Lal Kitab as a closed system. We treat> > > >> > > > Lal Kitab astrology as a living organism which grows. If any> > > >> > > > one treats this system as a closed system it will soon become> > > >> > > > a dogma and subsequently get fossilized. Therefore all such> > > >> > > > upaya which have been devised according to the principles> > > >> > > > of the Lal Kitab are acceptable to us.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Now coming to the concept of a River and a Canal.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > We believe that the swabhav [ taaseer ] of the flowing water> > > >> > > > doesn't change in both these cases. In both the cases the> > > >> > > > flowing water stays the Karak of the moon. In both cases> > > >> > > > the water is fresh. If there comes about a change, at least> > > >> > > > we do not know about it. And this is what we had asked you,> > > >> > > > what difference comes about in the taaseer of the water in> > > >> > > > both the cases?> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Now let us talk about the dharma of the water. In both the> > > >> > > > cases the cooling property of the water remains the same.> > > >> > > > The dharma of the flowing water is to carry an object away;> > > >> > > > distancing. This remains the same whether it is the flowing> > > >> > > > water of a river or a canal.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Therefore neither the swabhav nor the dharma changes.> > > >> > > > Then where is the difference. I think it is in our minds.> > > >> > > > Since the word 'dariyaa' river is used in the Book, we> > > > want> > > >> > > > to keep sticking to that. Mentally we are not prepared to> > > >> > > > accept a canal as a substitute for a river.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > We have nothing against those who have such mental blocks.> > > >> > > > For all we care, they could continue with their own precepts.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > In one of my messages yesterday I have already explained> > > >> > > > the purpose of immersing karak objects in flowing water.> > > >> > > > The other possible purpose could have been of cooling or> > > >> > > > handing over to the Mother moon, but that is a separate matter.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > You have mentioned different forms of water. All of us are> > > >> > > > aware of them. All of us are also aware how and for what> > > >> > > > these different forms of water have to be used. Except for> > > >> > > > the river / canal flowing water, no other form mentioned by> > > >> > > > you is used for distancing the effect of a planet.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > You have not explained the difference between> > > >> > > > the flowing water of a canal and a river.> > > >> > > > If you can not explain the difference then might> > > >> > > > as well accept the two being the same> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > You have asked what a Lal Kitab scholar should do for> > > >> > > > Venus 8th. The answer is simple:> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > [ a ] make the jatak flush down the toilet a pink flower [ the> > > flower> > > >> > > > should not be white or yellow ] each day for 43 days. The book> > > >> > > > doesn't mention this upaya. But this upaya is what one could> > > >> > > > get closest to throwing a flower into a sewage drain.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Quite a few other alternatives to this upaya can be> > > >> > > > devised with a very great ease.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Varun Trivedi> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > <%40>,> > "mts3434" <mts3434@>> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Namaskar> > > > > mein iss samay yahan par hoon , mere paas lk nahi hai. aap khud> > > hee> > > > > sochen ki Pt. jee ne dariya hee kyon likha hai. Baat rahi antar> > > ki,> > > > > kee nehar aur dariya mein kya antar hai. Mein koshish karta> > hoon> > > ki> > > > > samjha sankoo. Aapke brabr na to mere paas gyan hai, na hee> > mein> > > apne> > > > > aapko gyani samjhata hoon. lk mein kahin na kahin zaroor likha> > > hai,> > > > > ki iss kitab ( lk ) mein jo upay likhe hain, sirf wohi karen,> > > apne> > > > > aap na upay na banaye.> > > > > Agar aap iss baat ko manege to yeh bhee manana padega ki dariya> > > aur> > > > > nehar mein antar hota hai, ya hai. Kyonki lk mein kai jagah par> > > likha> > > > > hai ki yeh upay ( dariya mein bahaye/dariya ka pani aadi )varna> > > clear> > > > > kiya hai ki pani mein bahaye ( saaf pani jo ki nehar ho sakti> > > hai ).> > > > > Jaise ki for example aap dahi (curd ) likha hai to aap dahi ka> > > hee> > > > > istemaal karen. Aap dahi ko mixer mein ek circle chala de ya> > aap> > > dahi> > > > > ko madhani achhi tarah se ghuma de, lekin usmein water, salt ya> > > sugar> > > > > na milaye to bhee woh dahi nahi rahega. aap usse lassi hee> > > kahenge (> > > > > thick lassi )iss tarah ke aur bhee example diye ja sakte hain> > ki> > > kisi> > > > > mein kuchh nahi milaya lekin uski tasir ya naam badal gaya.> > > > > Aise hee dariya se nehar, nehar se sua ( yeh punjabi ka word> > hai> > > > > jiska matlab saaf pani ka nala bhee keh sakte hai) jo ki> > village> > > mein> > > > > aam mil jata hai, kheti badi wali zameen ko pani ke liye .> > nehar> > > aur> > > > > sua dono naam alag hai aise hee dariya ka matlab dariya hai koi> > > aur> > > > > nahi ( matlab ki nehar nahi ) lk mein pani ka bahut hee> > imprtant> > > role> > > > > hai pani kee alag alag kisme aapko milegi jaise ki> > > > > 1... Dariya ka paani--> > > > > 2... meenh ka paani ( Rain water )> > > > > 3... Shamshan ka paani> > > > > 4... Gangajal> > > > > 5... Chhapr ka paani ( shani khan no 6 )> > > > > 6... Gandanala ( shukar khana no 8 ) yeh paani nahi lekin issme> > > ganda> > > > > paani to behta hee hai> > > > > agar aur bhee kuchh ho to aap samjha dein . aapki bahut> > meharbani> > > > > hogi.> > > > > dhanyawad.> > > > > mahajan> > > > > P.S..... aajkal shehron mein gandanala nahi milta to yeh bataye> > > ki> > > > > aaplog phul/tambe ka paise kismein girwate ho (shukar-8 )> > > > >> > > > > In <%40>,> > "varun_trvd"> > varun_trvd@> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Kulbir Bhai,> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > This is yet another fallacy created by Lal Kitab semi-> > > literates.> > > > > >> > > > > > The fact is that immersing some thing in flowing water> > > > > >> > > > > > is not associated with the 4th house in any way. Immersing> > > > > >> > > > > > some thing in flowing water simply means distancing the> > > > > >> > > > > > effect of the planet.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Let us see what Pt. Roopchand ji has to say about it. I am> > > > > >> > > > > > quoting two statements from the book:> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Mithai, meetha bhojan daan karen ya batashe dariyaa mein> > dalen> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Mooli daan karen ya koyale dariyaa mein baha den> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Now you can see for yourself that donating or gifting away> > > > > >> > > > > > has been used synonymously to drifting away in flowing water.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > The purpose is obvious, to distance away.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > These statements occur in both the 1942 and 1952 editions.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Varun Trivedi> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > <%40>,> > "kulbirbance"> > > > > > <kulbirbance@> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Gurudev Umesh Sharma ji,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ise to aap hi spasht karenge, hum to aapki likhi kitabein> > > > > > > padhte hain, hum aapko kya spashtikaran denge, kripya aap> > ki> > > kasht> > > > > > > karein.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > regards> > > > > > >> > > > > > > kulbirbance> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > <%40>,> > "Umesh Sharma"> > > > > > > mudit982001@ wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Respected Mahajan ji,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dariya main, ya nadi main, ya canal main Bahane ke upay> > se> > > aap> > > > > ka> > > > > > > > kya tatprya hai? kya isse koi grah kisi ghar main sthapit> > > hota> > > > > hey> > > > > > > > ya kuch aur hai? kripya kya aap esko spashat karainge?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks in Advance.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Umesh Sharma> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > <%40>,> > "varun_trvd"> > > > > > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Aadarneeya Mahajan ji,> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > ap ne likha hai> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > " kyonki darya aur nehar ya chalta hua pani (saaf )> > mein> > > bahut> > > > > > > > > antar hai, kulbir jee samajh gaye hain."> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Mein yeh antar nahi samajh paya ki bahate dariya ke> > > paani aur> > > > > > > > bahate> > > > > > > > > nahar ke paani mein kya antar ho sakta hai?> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Dono kism ke paani ki taseer kaise badal jatee hai?> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Kyonki jab tak taseer nahi badalti tab tak upaya ke> > > prabhav> > > > > mein> > > > > > > > > farq nahi padna chahiye. Aur agar paani ki taseer vahi> > > rahati> > > > > hai> > > > > > > > [> > > > > > > > > yani dono Chadra ke karak ] to phir chahe nadi ka paani> > > ho ya> > > > > > > > nahar> > > > > > > > > ka, koi farq nahi padega.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Kripya ap hi bata den ki yah antar kya hai? aur kyon> > > hua ?> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Aur agar Kulbir bhai samajh gaye hen to Kulbir bhai hi> > > bata> > > > > den.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Doosare prashna ka uttar to ap ne diya hi nahi. Surya 4> > > ke> > > > > samay> > > > > > > > > rahu ki ashiya na bahayee jaye aisa kahan kaha hai?> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Saadar sahit,> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > <%40>,> > "mts3434"> > > > > <mts3434@>> > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Varun jee> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > baat yeh hai ki darya pandit jee ne kyon likha, behta> > > pani> > > > > kyon> > > > > > > > > nahi> > > > > > > > > > likha. kyonki darya aur nehar ya chalta hua pani> > > (saaf )> > > > > mein> > > > > > > > bahut> > > > > > > > > > antar hai, kulbir jee samajh gaye hain.> > > > > > > > > > ab budh khana 9 mein dekhe, wahan unhone likha hai ki> > > darya> > > > > ke> > > > > > > > pani> > > > > > > > > > ke cheente kapde par maare ya darya ke pani se kapde> > > dhoye (> > > > > > > kora> > > > > > > > > > suit ). yahan par bhee woh nehar ka pani likh sakte> > > thei.ya> > > > > > > apne> > > > > > > > > > kapde nehar mein dhoye( ya nehar ke paani ke cheente> > > mare )> > > > > abb> > > > > > > > > mein> > > > > > > > > > yahan par hoon wahan par mere paas lk nahi hai, nahi> > > to mein> > > > > > > > page> > > > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > > > ka udaaran de ke batata. lk mein kai jagah likha hua> > > aapko> > > > > mil> > > > > > > > > > jayega ki upay aap behtey hue paani mein kare (> > > pravah ) ya> > > > > > > kisi> > > > > > > > > > jagah yeh saaf likha milega ki darya mein pravah> > > karen. mere> > > > > > > > khayal> > > > > > > > > > mein yahan darya likha wahan aapko darya mein hee> > upay> > > karna> > > > > > > > > chahiye> > > > > > > > > > yahan chalta paani likha ho wahan aap darya / nehar> > > mein> > > > > karwa> > > > > > > > > sakte> > > > > > > > > > hain. baki aap sab mujhse zyada samazdar hain. meri> > aap> > > > > logo ke> > > > > > > > > aage> > > > > > > > > > kya aukat. meri adat likhne ki kum hai, issliye kai> > > baar> > > > > apni> > > > > > > > baat> > > > > > > > > > sahi tarike se explain nahi kar pata. discuss kare to> > > sahi> > > > > > > > tarike> > > > > > > > > se> > > > > > > > > > samjha sakta hoon. mera phone no shayad kulbir jee se> > > mil> > > > > > > > > jayega.aap> > > > > > > > > > se baat karke ya mil kar bahut khushi hogi.> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > mahajan> > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > <%40>,> > "varun_trvd"> > > > > > > > > > <varun_trvd@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Respected Kulbir Bhai,> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > When a karak object of a planet is immersed in> > > flowing> > > > > water,> > > > > > > > it> > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > assumed that the effect of the planet has been> > > distanced> > > > > > > away.> > > > > > > > > > > Flowing water is a medium or a carrier of the karak> > > > > object.> > > > > > > > > > > Therefore so long as the water is flowing water, as> > > > > against> > > > > > > > > > stagnant> > > > > > > > > > > water,it should be good enough.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > It hardly makes a difference whether the flowing> > > water is> > > > > of> > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > river> > > > > > > > > > > or a canal so long as the water carries away the> > > karak> > > > > object> > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > planet.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > <%40>,> > "kulbirbance"> > > > > > > > > > > <kulbirbance@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > respected Mahajan Sahib;> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the copncept of dariya and canal appealed> > > > > > > > > > > > to me. dariya is a natural running source of> > water> > > but> > > > > in> > > > > > > > case> > > > > > > > > > of a> > > > > > > > > > > > canal, water is first stored; read stopped, then> > > sent in> > > > > > > > > > > > artificially created chanel, varun ji can> > > elaborare on> > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > issue> > > > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > > > detail, but it appealled to me.> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > thanks> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > kulbirbance> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > <%40>,> > "mts3434"> > > > > > > > > <mts3434@>> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > varun jee/ kulbir jee/ gill jee> > > > > > > > > > > > > kripya yeh bhee dhayan rakhe ki jab> > > led/sikka/ranga> > > > > > > dariya> > > > > > > > me> > > > > > > > > > > > pravah> > > > > > > > > > > > > kar rahen ho uss samay suraj ( sun ) khana> > > number 4> > > > > mein> > > > > > > na> > > > > > > > > > ho .> > > > > > > > > > > > ya> > > > > > > > > > > > > jis saal yeh upay karna ho uss saal suraj khana> > > no. 4> > > > > > > mein> > > > > > > > na> > > > > > > > > > ho.> > > > > > > > > > > > > aur yeh upay driya mein hee karna hai nehar> > mein> > > > > nahi.yeh> > > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > hai> > > > > > > > > > > > > upay baki aur bhee kai baaton ka dhayan rakhna> > > hota> > > > > hai,> > > > > > > > > jaise> > > > > > > > > > ki> > > > > > > > > > > > > chhat na badle, ghar ki dahleej pujna (south> > > face )> > > > > wale> > > > > > > ke> > > > > > > > > > liye> > > > > > > > > > > > > jaroori hai.> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > mahajan> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > > > <%40>,> > "gill_hs2005"> > > > > > > > > > > > > <gill_hs2005@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Varun ji and kulbir ji,> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sirs, thank you such a brilliant and detailed> > > > > > > > explanation.> > > > > > > > > I> > > > > > > > > > am> > > > > > > > > > > > > > grateful for that.> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > With respect,> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > HS Gill> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > <%40>,> > "kulbir> > > > > > > > bance"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <kulbirbance@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gurudev,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for this detailed explanation, i> > agree> > > > > > > totally.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sincerely> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kulbirbance> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/4/08, varun_trvd <varun_trvd@> wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Gill Saheb,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the first place let us understand that> > > the> > > > > upaya> > > > > > > > you> > > > > > > > > > > have> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned, immersing 8 itmes either as> > > 4pieces> > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lead + 4 nariyals or 8 pieces of Lead,> > is a> > > > > > > devised> > > > > > > > > > upaya> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i.e. it has been devised by the Lal Kitab> > > > > > > astrologers> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > themselves. *This upaya is not mentioned> > > in the> > > > > > > > book.*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me explain:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Rahu # 8:*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1941 edition : No mention of this upaya> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1942 edition : No mention of this upaya> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1952 edition : page 674 note # 5> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " khote sikke [kharabshuda aur mande] jin> > > ki> > > > > bazaar> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mein kuchh keemat na ho aur zameen pat> > > takarane> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > se bilkul awaj na ho [ ya> > > sikka,seesa,lead ]> > > > > dariya> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mein dalte jana mubarik hoga [ taqreeban> > 8> > > sikke> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ya har roj ek taqreeban 43 din]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [The book mentions 8 counterfeit coins in> > > one> > > > > day> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a coin each day for 43 days. It> > > mentions Lead> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or sikka or seesa too but it is probably> > > in the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > context of the coins]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Rahu # 11*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1941 edition : no mention> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1942 edition : no mention> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1952 edition : no mention> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *But the Hindi transliteration of 1942> > > edition *> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *[ Arun sanhita ] has added on its own :*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Rahu 8th : aath tukade sikke ke jinka> > > vazan> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12 kilo ho dariya mein dalen> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Rahu 11th : 4 kilo sikka tatha 4> > pooja> > > vale> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nariyal dariya mein dalen> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the upaya of immersing 8 pieces of> > > Lead /> > > > > > > Nariyal> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or a mix there of is a perfectly> > logically> > > > > devised> > > > > > > > > upaya.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As Kulbir Ji has mentioned, Pt. Krishna> > > Ashant> > > > > ji & > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amrita Preetam ji in their book " *Trik> > > > > bhavanon ki> > > > > > > > > > gatha*"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have given a rationale of this upaya. Pt.> > > > > Krishna> > > > > > > > > > Ashant> > > > > > > > > > > ji> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintains that the total quantity should> > > be 8 in> > > > > > > > value> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > where as it can be cut into pieces of 8,> > > or 10> > > > > or> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > depending on the house affected.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Now let me explain the logic of this> > > upaya*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * as we have understood it :*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The most important thing to remember is> > > that> > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devised upaya is done only for Rahu in> > 8th> > > and> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 11th and for no other house.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Second thing to remember is the figure> > of 8> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in both the case. Therefore this figure> > is> > > not> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > related to the house the Rahu is posited> > > in.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If that were so then the figure of 8> > would> > > not> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have been there for rahu in the 11th. It> > > would> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have been 11 instead.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Now does some thing ring a bell in the> > > mind ?*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a figure of 8 be related to the 8th> > > house> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the 11th house?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, let me tell you.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu is moved 8 steps away.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which is the 8th house from the 8th?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And which is the 8th house from the 11th?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The answer is the 3rd and the 6th.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now by immersing a piece each day or> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > immersing 8 pieces the same day for Rahu> > in> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 8th, where does it take Rahu to?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To the 3rd house of course.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly, immersing 8 pieces for a rahu> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > placed in the 11th where would it take it> > > to?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To the 6th house of course.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now Rahu can not be better placed than> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > being in the 3rd or the 6th.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Therefore the purpose of the upaya is> > to *> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *distance the Rahu such that it gets> > based*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * in the best houses it can ever be.*> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now let me explain another issue that> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kulbir ji has raised.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should the Nariyal be the one with water> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or the one which is completely dry.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In our opinion the Nariyal should be> > > completely> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dry because the Nariyal is an ashiya of> > > Shani.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thing with water [ moon ] can not be> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an ashiya of Shani. The Nariyal used in> > > pooja> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is the one which is dry. Even otherwise> > > Shani> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is considered a 'shushka grah' a dry> > > planet.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gill Saheb, it is not coconut. Coconut is> > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kernel. For upaya it is the Nariyal,> > which> > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole of it with coir intact.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was definitely a very beautiful query.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Varun Trivedi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > > > > > > > <%40>,> > "kulbirbance"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <kulbirbance@>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gill sahib,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pt. Krishan ashant has beautifully> > > explained> > > > > rahu> > > > > > > > 11> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remedy in his book but your question> > has> > > > > posed a> > > > > > > > new> > > > > > > > > > > > > question> > > > > > > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me. i.e. shouls the 4 nariyals be> > sookhe> > > > > khadkte> > > > > > > > hue> > > > > > > > > or> > > > > > > > > > > > > > containing> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > water. i am in favour of cocunuts> > > containing> > > > > > > water> > > > > > > > > > > because> > > > > > > > > > > > > > water is> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > entraped in the shell. lets see what> > > varun ji> > > > > has> > > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > say> > > > > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regard. indeed very logical question> > has> > > been> > > > > put> > > > > > > > > > forward> > > > > > > > > > > > by> > > > > > > > > > > > > > your> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goodself.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sinccerely> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kulbirbance> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In> > > > > > > > > > <%40>,> > "gill_hs2005"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gill_hs2005@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sirs,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Rahu there are different remedy> > > > > suggested> > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > each> > > > > > > > > > > > > house> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > except> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for house 8th and the 11th. For both> > > these> > > > > > > > houses> > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > remedy> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > same. In both cases 8 pieces have> > been> > > > > advised> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > flow> > > > > > > > > > > > > into a> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > river.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It could be 4 pieces of ranga and 4> > > > > coconuts,> > > > > > > or> > > > > > > > 8> > > > > > > > > > > > pieces> > > > > > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ranga.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either way the total is 8 pieces.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sir I can understand 8 pieces thrown> > in> > > > > flowing> > > > > > > > > water> > > > > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu in> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8th house but what is the logic of> > > throwing> > > > > 8> > > > > > > > > pieces> > > > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > > > > > rahu in> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11th.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HS Gill> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>