Mapping of infinite by finite methods

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

 

This is one question that i have been grappling with and which i have also been bothering priyaji with and got some answers ........but somehow am not satisfied..

 

Is this life destiny,mapped out by an invisible hand or is there a choice or is it a mix of two....what is life actually..

 

I am always amazed that this one life of a human being has infinite permutation combination possibilities..we use mathematics / laws of mathematics which by nature is finite since invented by humans to map out the infinite possibilities of life.....

 

how does this make sense ...maybe not relevant exactly to the title of the group but since Lal Kitab is also a fraemwork of analysis it wud be an intresting understanding..

 

What i also have understood a little bit is that LK believes more in folk etc so if i am going to do a class analysis this framework becomes a subversive one ...u say that vedic astrology is reqd which talks abt emerald etc but LK talks abt haldi ganth and say that this is more effective....so u are equalising the resources available to everyone for a solution which may lead to greated good / accumulation of wealth by the poor than by the rich....

 

So how does finite map infinity in the context of LK and is LK subversive?

 

Aryan

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Respected Aryan ji,

 

You are absolutely right that we can not map the infinite with tools

competent to map the finite only. Only Lord Brahma can map the

infinite because he is not bound to the finite tools.

 

Except for the present, the past and the future belong to the realm

of the infinite. Present, this moment, alone can be defined as

finite. Astrology tries to map that finite. How successful is the

mapping, depends on the cartographer. No astrologer can ever claim

that he has been able to map the finite absolutely correctly.

 

As for your larger metaphysical question of destiny vs free will, a

lot has been said by great savants. You can find out from the net.

 

I am quoting below an answer which I got from the net. The answer is

given by one shri Narsimha ji.

 

 

 

Narsimha ji's article :

 

Brief Answer

 

First let me give the brief answer. If you can indeed concentrate on

your Karmas

(actions) and leave the rest to God and if you can accept with an

equal vision

any results (fruits) that your karmas may bring, then you are a

liberated soul.

Jyotisha shastra is indeed irrelevant to you. But there are very few

people who

are like that. For others, it is still relevant.

 

Now let me give the long-winded answer.

 

* * *

 

Nature of Self

 

When someone has a dream, one may experience many objects of various

attributes

and qualities in the dream. Do those objects exist in reality? No.

All those

objects and various interactions between those objects are unreal -

they exist

fictionally within the mind. Only the mind exists in reality and no

other

objects. Still, during the course of a dream, the mind is under the

illusion

that all these objects exist outside of it. All those objects obey

the rules

conjured by the mind that is dreaming.

 

This whole creation is basically like that. All beings are but

Brahman.

Upanishads and vedanta teach that there is Brahman and nothing or

nobody else in

this universe. There is no " self " and " other " . All is self. However,

a part of

Brahman becomes deluded and forms a self-identity and entertains an

illusion

that there is an " I " and the " other " . This first being is the

supreme being

(known by various names such as Sadashiva, Narayana, Krishna,

Mahaganapathi,

Savita etc).

 

When the supreme being imagines the existence of Brahma, Vishnu,

Shiva etc to

play various roles in this universe and imagines various beings that

make this

universe up, all those beings come into being (just like the objects

in

someone's dream). Just as the objects in a dream obey the rules

conjured up by

the dreamer in his dream, the beings of this universe obey the rules

of the game

imagined by the supreme being. Each being experiences various other

beings and

other objects in this universe because of the spell of delusion that

he/she is

under. When one realizes the delusionary nature of this spell, one

can break

free from it.

 

But a normal person is not aware of all this. One's senses simply

perceive so

many different objects and one entertains various notions with

respect to those

objects. All these notions become very firmly established in one's

consciousness

after many births and it is difficult to overcome those notions.

Some objects

give pleasure and some give pain, some are found attractive and some

are

repulsive, some are considered good and some bad. And so on. The

field that is

experienced by one, i.e. the field in which all these objects of

opposite

qualities exist, is known as the " field of duality " or " maayaa "

(delusion).

 

* * *

 

Overcoming the Delusion

 

Overcoming this delusion and rising above the limited perception of

the senses

and realizing that all the beings that seem to exist are like dream

objects

imagined by the supreme being, i.e. that there is nothing but the

supreme being

in this universe, is not easy.

 

Saying " all is Brahman and the objects we perceive are all Brahman

only " is

easy. Even understanding it at an intellectual level may be easy.

But a perfect

and unshakable understanding of it is not difficult.

 

Let us see an analogy. Suppose one goes to a movie. Some events

unfold on the

movie screen and they seem to really happen. However, they are not

real events.

It is just fake and manipulated. The characters in the movie are not

real.

However, some people take the events on the screen seriously and

react strongly.

Good happenings on the screen make them elated and scary moments on

the screen

shake them up. There may be someone with an intellectual

understanding that the

movie is not real and yet one specific scene that may get him/her.

For example,

one may shiver with shock in a scene despite the intellectual

understanding that

it is not real. Intellectual understanding does not give full

control over

instincts.

 

Similarly, one with only an intellectual understanding that all is

Brahman does

not have full control over the mind. The instincts, sense organs and

various

aspects of mind sometimes run like a mad monkey, away from the

understanding

that " all is Brahman " . One may feel happy about some things, feel

sad about some

things, become attracted to some things and become repelled by some

things. A

perfect, permanent and unshakable understanding that all is Brahman

is much more

difficult to obtain than a mere intellectual understanding.

 

It requires dismantling the formidable fort of delusion made of the

walls of

mental conditioning formed by the bricks of sense experiences that

are joined by

the cement of logic and analysis. These walls are fortified over

many many lives

and make the fort quite formidable.

 

This is a long process involving many steps. There are different

practices

designed to facilitate this in different religious/spiritual paths.

There is no

foolproof algorithm to ensure this process. There are only

guidelines.

 

All is Brahman and all the duality is arising from the Supreme

Being. All of

one's actions are actually occurring due to the will of Supreme

Being only. The

results/fruits (good or bad) of one's actions may be viewed as the

reactions by

Nature to one's actions and they too are due to the will of Supreme

Being. Thus,

everything that happens is due to the will of Supreme Being. If one

person

remains in ignorance, keeps on taking a rebirth and keeps going

through good and

terrible experiences, it is all the will of Supreme Being. If one

says " it is

all the will of Supreme Being. I am doing nothing " just for the heck

of it and

yet continues to have an egotism (self-identication with a body or

name or

personality or some object), continues various actions through that

ego and

continues to receive their fruits and becomes elated by some and

depressed by

some, it is all through the will of Supreme Being. Though the person

is saying

" Supreme Being does all " , he continues to think of an " I " and thinks

deeply that

" I am doing " . That is why Supreme Being wills the persons to receive

the

appropriate fruits of that action. If another person truly

understands that

Supreme Being knows, wills and does all things, kills " I " completely

at the

mental level, then that person may seem to engage in various

actions, but he

does not really perform any actions. When there is no " I " , there is

action and

no reaction. Despite moving in the material world and doing various

actions,

that person's mind is always established in bliss. Again, this

person has no

" I-ness " and hence Supreme Being wills the person to be in supreme

bliss always.

 

The subtle lesson I am trying to drive at is: As long as there is

an " I-ness " to

a person, actions take place and their reactions happen. " All is

Brahman. I do

not do anything " is for one who has killed " I-ness " completely. It

is not an

excuse to do anything and get away. Until one completely kills " I-

ness " , one has

to watch one's actions to produce good reactions that are conducive

to making

more progress.

 

* * *

 

Two Types of Knowledge

 

The teachings of maharshis in Veda and allied subjects like Vedangas

and Vedanta

cover essentially two types of knowledge:

 

(1) Understanding the rules of engagement of the field of duality

(maayaa)

(2) Understanding how the field of duality is delusionary and how

all is Brahman

only

 

Knowledge of type (2) is essential because eventually the goal of

each being is

to overcome the delusionary nature of the field of duality and see

Brahman in

all. However, the problem with 2 is that this knowledge is only

realized and not

imparted in a step-by-step process. One may read reams about how all

is Brahman

and seemingly different objects of this universe are a delusion and

one may even

understand and appreciate it to some extent intellectually. But it

is of not

much use! Until the realization comes from within and experienced,

one continues

to be deluded by duality. One may know all the theory, but the mind

continues to

be deluded and swayed by duality. When somebody praises one, one may

feel

elated. When somebody attacks one, one may feel unhappy. When one

finds

something nice, one may be attracted. When one finds something

disgusting, one

may be repelled. And so on. Please see my previous analogy of a

movie.

 

While knowledge of type (2) elaborates why the above behavior is

silly and

describes the thinking and approach of a liberated soul, it is very

very

difficult to imbibe such thinking and attitude and become liberated.

Even

reading works imparting knowledge of type 2 for a long time does not

guarantee

liberation.

 

Vedangas such as Jyotisha belong to type (1). When one does not

realize that the

field of duality is a delusion and is swayed by the opposites, then

one needs

tools to navigate the ocean of opposites. Jyotish is one such tool.

When one's

mind is deeply stuck in duality and has unsurmountable " I-ness "

and " other-ness "

deeply imprinted on it, " all is Brahman. Parama Purusha knows, wills

and does

all " is a useless concept. From the perspective of that person,

one's " I-ness "

does all actions and begets the fruits of those actions based on

order set by

Parama Purusha. This gives happiness and sadness of great

proportions. This

cycle of actions and fruits may go on forever, until one's " I-ness "

is killed

completely.

 

Some spiritual sadhana is necessary to kill the " I-ness " . This

spiritual sadhana

is happening within the field of duality where the mind has a

clear " I-ness " and

" other-ness " . Thus, the rules of engagement in the field duality

apply. Subjects

like Jyotisha throw light on these rules and they can be helpful.

For example,

one may start sadhana at a particular time and make swift progress.

One may

start sadhana at a particular time and encounter many obstacles and

stop the

sadhana without much progress. One may find the right sadhana based

on previous

samskaras and vasanas from the horoscope. One may find out that

impending

material problem (e.g. job loss or loss of a close relative or a

divorce etc)

may derail one's sadhana and take some measures to stop it and

reduce its

magnitude. Thus, Jyotisha can be used to manipulate the field of

duality to

one's advantage, as one wades it trying to kill one's " I-ness " and

individual

will.

 

* * *

 

One's Will vs Other's Will

 

When a scripture says that everything that happens is God's will, it

is

essentially referring to the supreme being (Parama Purusha)

mentioned earlier as

the God. This Being is the first Being arising from non-dual Brahman

and the one

who conjures up the entire duality. Thus, we are at the border of

non-duality

and duality.

 

Deities who operate completely within duality have their own wills

which may

clash with each other and clash with our will. For example, the will

of

Yamadharmaraja (yama=displicine, dharma = righteousness, raja =

ruler) compelled

him to kill Markandeya and collided with the will of Markandeyaq who

wanted to

remain alive and the will of Lord Shiva who wanted to save

Markendeya. There are

many stories where the will of one deity/being clashed with

another's.

 

Of course, all these deities are different forms of the same Brahman

(or,

loosely speaking, of Parama purusha). The will of Parama Purusha is

that one

deity's will should compel the deity to do X and another deity's

will should

compel that deity to do Y and something should happen as a result.

Everything is

indeed the leelaa (play) of the will of Parama Purusha. But we are

not at the

stage of fathoming the play of Parama Purusha (and his Shakti). All

we can say

is that Parama Purusha's will is a complex thing. It is in fact the

sum total of

the individual wills of all beings of this universe!

 

As long as there is " I-ness " and individual self-identity left in

the mind,

there is an individual will. As long as that is the case, one is not

liberated.

One's individual will facilitates various actions that clash with

the wills of

various other beings. It causes various probelms. Basically one

acting based on

" individual will " is in tune with only a small subset of " God's

will " . That

person is not in tune with the *entire* God's will.

 

Thus saying " all is God's will. I need to do nothing " is not

conducive to

liberation. It continues bondage. Directed effort to kill " I-ness "

makes one

truly understand that " all is God's will " and drop off one's

individual will.

 

Only when " I-ness " is killed and " individual will " is completely

evaporated can

one be in tune with the entire " God's will " (as opposed to a small

subset). Then

alone can one remain in constant bliss, as an unbound observer of

the play of

this universe without any individual agenda or will. THAT is

liberation. Such a

liberated soul may seem to engage in various actions, but the mind

is stable,

has no " I-ness " or individual will and is established in constant

bliss. Like a

fan may continue to turn for a while after the electricity supply is

stopped,

such a liberated soul may continue to engage in actions based on the

previous

flow, but without any egotism (supply of electricity in the analogy).

 

* * *

 

I wanted to write a little bit, but ended up writing too much. I

will sign off

for now. Again, a pleasant Rishi Panchami to all of you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, whatisinaname

<mail_aryan04 wrote:

>

> Dear All,

>  

> This is one question that i have been grappling with and which i

have also been bothering priyaji with and got some

answers ........but somehow am not satisfied..

>  

> Is this life destiny,mapped out by an invisible hand or is there a

choice or is it a mix of two....what is life actually..

>  

> I am always amazed that this one life of a human being has

infinite permutation combination possibilities..we use mathematics /

laws of mathematics which by nature is finite since invented by

humans to map out the infinite possibilities of life.....

>  

> how does this make sense ...maybe not relevant exactly to the

title of the group but since Lal Kitab is also a fraemwork of

analysis it wud be an intresting understanding..

>  

> What i also have understood a little bit is that LK believes more

in folk etc so if i am going to do a class analysis this framework

becomes a subversive one ...u say that vedic astrology is reqd which

talks abt emerald etc but LK talks abt haldi ganth and say that this

is more effective....so u are equalising the resources available to

everyone for a solution which may lead to greated good /

accumulation of wealth by the poor than by the rich....

>  

> So how does finite map infinity in the context of LK and is

LK subversive?

>  

> Aryan

>  

>  

>  

>  

>

> Send free SMS to your Friends on Mobile from your

Messenger. Download Now! http://messenger./download.php

>